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Author Topic: New York Town Clerk Quits Over Opposition to Gay Marriage  (Read 4543 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: July 24, 2011, 02:22:15 PM »

New York Town Clerk Quits Over Opposition to Gay Marriage

A town clerk in western New York says she's resigning over her religious opposition to gay marriage.
 
Laura Fotusky submitted a letter of resignation to the town board in Barker on Monday, saying her religious beliefs prevent her from signing a marriage certificate for a gay couple, as she'd be required to do as a municipal clerk. The letter was published on the website of the Christian lobbying group New Yorkers for Constitutional Freedoms...
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« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2011, 02:36:48 PM »

Wow!  Good for her!  That took courage.
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« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2011, 03:50:38 PM »

Glory be to God!
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« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2011, 05:03:06 PM »

Glory to God!
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« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2011, 05:06:05 PM »

What does a civil marriage certificate have to do with the sacrament of marriage as observed by the Church? Nothing. I can't see anyone or anything stopping gay civil marriages from growing more and more acceptable in our society. A civil marriage has nothing to do with religion, so let them have it, I say. Then all of this nonsense can simmer down to silence (hopefully). Gays can enjoy their civil legal marriages, and Christians can enjoy their sacramental marriages. 
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« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2011, 06:13:27 PM »

Glory to God! Many years!
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« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2011, 06:30:25 PM »

What does a civil marriage certificate have to do with the sacrament of marriage as observed by the Church? Nothing.

Everything.

The State can either protect and promote marriage as the institution the Church knows and this country held from its founding, or the State can attack it from all sides, like it is.

I can't see anyone or anything stopping gay civil marriages from growing more and more acceptable in our society.
A nice earthquake dumping SF and Hollywood into the sea, and global warming putting NYC under a mile of water could help.

A civil marriage has nothing to do with religion, so let them have it, I say.
It has everyting to do with society, and the Church is in the world, even if not of the world.

Then all of this nonsense can simmer down to silence (hopefully).

LOL.  Boy are you dreaming.

The first lesbian couple to get "married" (and then broke up less than a year later, with orders of protection, after living together over a decade. Btw, NY has had gay divorce for a while, having divorced a MA or Quebec couple years ago IIRC.  Same thing here in IL.  The first gay civil unions were July 2, but the first gay divorces were filed July 1) said that they couldn't accept civil unions because married "means society accepts us and people have to accept us as a married couple."  And you don't think that they are going to ram that acceptance down any disagreeing throats? LOL.

Gays can enjoy their civil legal marriages, and Christians can enjoy their sacramental marriages. 
And gays can force Christians out of foster care and adoption, and force explicit gay sex material into the school curriculum.  It has already happened.
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« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2011, 07:34:03 PM »

Wow, somebody believes whatever he hears on the talk shows...  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2011, 07:40:32 PM »

Quote
LOL.  Boy are you dreaming.

Yes, I suppose I am. I dare to dream of a world where people live and let live and don't get their knickers in a knot over who legally resides with whom.  Smiley
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« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2011, 07:40:48 PM »

Wow, somebody believes whatever he hears on the talk shows...  Roll Eyes

I don't have television.
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« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2011, 07:48:35 PM »

Wow, somebody believes whatever he hears on the talk shows...  Roll Eyes
Wouldn't know.  I don't watch talk shows.
Though it does seem someone has his head in the sand, or up darker regions. Shocked
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« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2011, 07:52:28 PM »

Quote
LOL.  Boy are you dreaming.

Yes, I suppose I am. I dare to dream of a world where people live and let live and don't get their knickers in a knot over who legally resides with whom.  Smiley
Well, the Mormons do come from NY
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« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2011, 07:56:05 PM »

What does a civil marriage certificate have to do with the sacrament of marriage as observed by the Church? Nothing. I can't see anyone or anything stopping gay civil marriages from growing more and more acceptable in our society. A civil marriage has nothing to do with religion, so let them have it, I say. Then all of this nonsense can simmer down to silence (hopefully). Gays can enjoy their civil legal marriages, and Christians can enjoy their sacramental marriages.

I heard a nearly identical argument about 3 years ago, only substitute civil unions for marriages.  No silence followed.
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« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2011, 08:01:23 PM »

What does a civil marriage certificate have to do with the sacrament of marriage as observed by the Church? Nothing. I can't see anyone or anything stopping gay civil marriages from growing more and more acceptable in our society. A civil marriage has nothing to do with religion, so let them have it, I say. Then all of this nonsense can simmer down to silence (hopefully). Gays can enjoy their civil legal marriages, and Christians can enjoy their sacramental marriages. 

This sums it up.

What a ridiculous decision by the woman.



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« Reply #14 on: July 24, 2011, 08:07:41 PM »

What does a civil marriage certificate have to do with the sacrament of marriage as observed by the Church? Nothing. I can't see anyone or anything stopping gay civil marriages from growing more and more acceptable in our society. A civil marriage has nothing to do with religion, so let them have it, I say. Then all of this nonsense can simmer down to silence (hopefully). Gays can enjoy their civil legal marriages, and Christians can enjoy their sacramental marriages. 

This sums it up.

What a ridiculous decision by the woman.
Yes. How dare she not follow orders of the New Order.
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« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2011, 08:18:20 PM »

Yes, because gay weddings are exactly the same as the people who did the Holocaust. (An argument coming from a divorced man, incidentally.) Roll Eyes He does know that the Nazis executed a lot of gay people, doesn't he? Or does he just not care?

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By the way, gay divorces are different from the high divorce rate among straight people how, exactly?
 Huh



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« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2011, 08:23:08 PM »

And the acceptance of gay marriage actually hurts society then benefits one.
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« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2011, 08:23:37 PM »

Wow, somebody believes whatever he hears on the talk shows...  Roll Eyes

I don't have television.

Sorry, biro. I thought that was meant for me. Whether it was or not, for the record, I do not watch talk shows.  laugh
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« Reply #18 on: July 24, 2011, 08:25:21 PM »

It wasn't you, Stavros. Sorry.  Smiley
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« Reply #19 on: July 24, 2011, 08:27:09 PM »

What does a civil marriage certificate have to do with the sacrament of marriage as observed by the Church? Nothing. I can't see anyone or anything stopping gay civil marriages from growing more and more acceptable in our society. A civil marriage has nothing to do with religion, so let them have it, I say. Then all of this nonsense can simmer down to silence (hopefully). Gays can enjoy their civil legal marriages, and Christians can enjoy their sacramental marriages. 
I agree with this on a personal level, because I see both as two completely separate entities. As long as they don't mess with our right to refuse to honor or perform those marriages as the church...I do not see the state as the political arm of the church, so aside from a moral argument, I can't say that a state can't decide to grant civil marriages to whomever.

Plus, I know that it's not kosher to rank sins, and I don't like to, but if you worked for the CIA, FBI, any government agency, you'd probably have some bigger sins to confess to God than just signing a gay civil marriage certificate!

These are our choices as we enter the workplace in the public sector, and if she feels like she can't sign gay marriage licenses, good for her that she resigned. At least they won't have to be dealing with an employee who just sits there and says "no" every time someone hands her a certificate. And she made her stand. Win-win.


Edited to add: Having this stand does not mean that I accept gay marriage, by the way.
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« Reply #20 on: July 24, 2011, 08:27:20 PM »

Yes, because gay weddings are exactly the same as the people who did the Holocaust.

More like the ones who brough down the Roman Empire, though the Third Reich had enough in common with them (brides of the Fuehrer, etc.)

(An argument coming from a divorced man, incidentally.) Roll Eyes
Exactly. I know from experience how screwing up family law is not just a private issue. police

He does know that the Nazis executed a lot of gay people, doesn't he? Or does he just not care?
Yes, he knew, having been to a number of concentration camps amongst other things.  And they executed a lot of communists too.  Doesn't make me sympathetic to the Stalinists.

 
Tongue
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By the way, gay divorces are different from the high divorce rate among straight people how, exactly?
 Huh
for one thing, heterosexuals had heterosexual marriage before they had heterosexual divorce, unlike the gay variety.

IIRC in Scandinavia the "marriage" rate amongst gay falls far short of the heterosexual, already dismal, and outdo the heterosexuals in divorce.
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« Reply #21 on: July 24, 2011, 08:46:27 PM »

What does a civil marriage certificate have to do with the sacrament of marriage as observed by the Church? Nothing. I can't see anyone or anything stopping gay civil marriages from growing more and more acceptable in our society. A civil marriage has nothing to do with religion, so let them have it, I say. Then all of this nonsense can simmer down to silence (hopefully). Gays can enjoy their civil legal marriages, and Christians can enjoy their sacramental marriages. 
I agree with this on a personal level, because I see both as two completely separate entities.

It doesn't matter how you see it, no offense. Besides how God sees it, there is also the problem of how acts in society, and in the law.

As long as they don't mess with our right to refuse to honor or perform those marriages as the church...I do not see the state as the political arm of the church, so aside from a moral argument, I can't say that a state can't decide to grant civil marriages to whomever.
I can't wait for polygamy being legalized.

Plus, I know that it's not kosher to rank sins, and I don't like to, but if you worked for the CIA, FBI, any government agency, you'd probably have some bigger sins to confess to God than just signing a gay civil marriage certificate!
Do remember that the next terrorist plot that is thwarted.

But besides that, since she wasn't working for the CIA, FBI etc... what is the relevance of the observation?

These are our choices as we enter the workplace in the public sector, and if she feels like she can't sign gay marriage licenses, good for her that she resigned. At least they won't have to be dealing with an employee who just sits there and says "no" every time someone hands her a certificate. And she made her stand. Win-win.
I agree. Didn't see any of the SF clerks make a similar stand when told to stop issuing the marriage license to gay couples.  Nor the clerks in Cook County under similar circumstances.

Edited to add: Having this stand does not mean that I accept gay marriage, by the way.
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« Reply #22 on: July 24, 2011, 08:51:49 PM »

I am concerned about evil, and BTW, I am trying to head in the FBI, CIA direction, so I know what I am getting into. I am not dogging them. I am preparing myself for the inevitability that I will probably commit sins in the name of my career, and questioning whether I want to go ahead.

And IS there a way to make the anti-gay marriage argument without the slippery slope, moral argument? Just wondering. And no, I don't want polygamy to be legal either.

Like I've said in other posts, I think there are bigger fish to fry and I think it should be a state decision. If my state opened a vote on it, I would vote a "no." (And, no, it's not about "h8," people!) Simple as that. I don't agree with a federal marriage amendment.
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« Reply #23 on: July 24, 2011, 08:57:27 PM »

And IS there a way to make the anti-gay marriage argument without the slippery slope, moral argument? Just wondering. And no, I don't want polygamy to be legal either.

Gay marriage loses sight/redefines the meaning of marriage. For proponents of gay marriage, marriage is reduced to a recognised union between two individuals. However, marriage is necessarily much more than this. Marriage is the union of a man and a woman, not only for their own love for one another, but also in order to create and raise new life. Marriage, then, is literally the foundation upon which society is built, i.e. many families together create a state for the mutual support and protection of one another. An erosion of marriage is a destruction of society and the state, with no mention of the moral and religious implications.
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« Reply #24 on: July 24, 2011, 09:01:47 PM »

I am concerned about evil, and BTW, I am trying to head in the FBI, CIA direction, so I know what I am getting into. I am not dogging them. I am preparing myself for the inevitability that I will probably commit sins in the name of my career, and questioning whether I want to go ahead.
Any career has its temptations.  Even monasticism.

And IS there a way to make the anti-gay marriage argument without the slippery slope, moral argument? Just wondering. And no, I don't want polygamy to be legal either.

Like I've said in other posts, I think there are bigger fish to fry and I think it should be a state decision. If my state opened a vote on it, I would vote a "no." (And, no, it's not about "h8," people!) Simple as that. I don't agree with a federal marriage amendment.
Given the court decision in CA heading for SCOTUS, no other choice.

Btw, IIRC no state has voted in this change, and when put to a vote, even HI, CA, and ME rejected it.
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« Reply #25 on: July 24, 2011, 10:06:55 PM »

What does a civil marriage certificate have to do with the sacrament of marriage as observed by the Church? Nothing. I can't see anyone or anything stopping gay civil marriages from growing more and more acceptable in our society. A civil marriage has nothing to do with religion, so let them have it, I say. Then all of this nonsense can simmer down to silence (hopefully). Gays can enjoy their civil legal marriages, and Christians can enjoy their sacramental marriages. 
I agree with this on a personal level, because I see both as two completely separate entities. As long as they don't mess with our right to refuse to honor or perform those marriages as the church...I do not see the state as the political arm of the church, so aside from a moral argument, I can't say that a state can't decide to grant civil marriages to whomever.

The problem is that once there is gay marriage, it won't be long (if it doesn't immediately happen), before private businesses are forced to recognize them and give benefits to homosexual "husbands" or "wives" of their workers, even if the entire board of directors and C.E.O./President, and 99% of shareholders are opposed on religious grounds, because the business isn't a religious entity that qualifies for an exception.  The recognition of so-called gay marriage, by the government, will impact society in many ways as courts require various types of acceptance of gay marriage by non-governmental entities. 
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« Reply #26 on: July 24, 2011, 10:27:57 PM »

Good. If she can't do her job she should quit. Hope the door didn't hit her. If she needs a job, there's a KFC near me hiring.
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« Reply #27 on: July 24, 2011, 10:33:11 PM »

Good. If she can't do her job she should quit. Hope the door didn't hit her.

You're right. She shouldn't be doing a bad job when it comes to marriage certificates.
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« Reply #28 on: July 24, 2011, 10:38:21 PM »

Good. If she can't do her job she should quit. Hope the door didn't hit her. If she needs a job, there's a KFC near me hiring.
Is that what they did with all those clerks who issued certificates to gay couples in San Francisco?
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« Reply #29 on: July 24, 2011, 10:46:13 PM »

Good. If she can't do her job she should quit. Hope the door didn't hit her. If she needs a job, there's a KFC near me hiring.
Is that what they did with all those clerks who issued certificates to gay couples in San Francisco?
They were doing thier job, the issued certificates in accordance with thier superiors' interpretation of the law as it was at the time. Funny, I've never heard of a "Christian" official resigning because they couldn't bring them selves to issue marriage certificates to divorced persons, but then heterosexual proclivities are always forgiveable aren't they?
« Last Edit: July 24, 2011, 10:50:12 PM by Tallitot » Logged

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« Reply #30 on: July 24, 2011, 10:48:25 PM »

Good. If she can't do her job she should quit. Hope the door didn't hit her. If she needs a job, there's a KFC near me hiring.
Is that what they did with all those clerks who issued certificates to gay couples in San Francisco?
I think we need to ask how England has a KFC.
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« Reply #31 on: July 24, 2011, 10:51:02 PM »

Good. If she can't do her job she should quit. Hope the door didn't hit her. If she needs a job, there's a KFC near me hiring.
Is that what they did with all those clerks who issued certificates to gay couples in San Francisco?
They were doing thier job, the issued certificates in accordance with thier superiors' interpretation of the law as it was at the time. Funny, I've never heard of a "Christian" official resigning because they couldn't bring them selves to issue marriage certificates to divorced persons, but then heterosexual proclivities are always forgiveable aren't they?
Actually this is the second case someone has resigned over this issue.
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« Reply #32 on: July 24, 2011, 10:51:23 PM »

Good. If she can't do her job she should quit. Hope the door didn't hit her. If she needs a job, there's a KFC near me hiring.
Is that what they did with all those clerks who issued certificates to gay couples in San Francisco?
I think we need to ask how England has a KFC.

I'm sorry but that staement makes no sense to me.
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« Reply #33 on: July 24, 2011, 10:52:21 PM »

Good. If she can't do her job she should quit. Hope the door didn't hit her. If she needs a job, there's a KFC near me hiring.
Is that what they did with all those clerks who issued certificates to gay couples in San Francisco?
I think we need to ask how England has a KFC.

I'm sorry but that staement makes no sense to me.
IIRC you live in England no? If not my bad.
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« Reply #34 on: July 24, 2011, 10:55:01 PM »

Good. If she can't do her job she should quit. Hope the door didn't hit her. If she needs a job, there's a KFC near me hiring.
Is that what they did with all those clerks who issued certificates to gay couples in San Francisco?
They were doing thier job, the issued certificates in accordance with thier superiors' interpretation of the law as it was at the time. Funny, I've never heard of a "Christian" official resigning because they couldn't bring them selves to issue marriage certificates to divorced persons, but then heterosexual proclivities are always forgiveable aren't they?
Actually this is the second case someone has resigned over this issue.
In that case good and good.
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« Reply #35 on: July 24, 2011, 10:55:37 PM »

Good. If she can't do her job she should quit. Hope the door didn't hit her. If she needs a job, there's a KFC near me hiring.
Is that what they did with all those clerks who issued certificates to gay couples in San Francisco?
They were doing thier job, the issued certificates in accordance with thier superiors' interpretation of the law as it was at the time. Funny, I've never heard of a "Christian" official resigning because they couldn't bring them selves to issue marriage certificates to divorced persons, but then heterosexual proclivities are always forgiveable aren't they?
Actually this is the second case someone has resigned over this issue.
In that case good and good.
“I believe that there is a higher law than the law of the land. It is the law of God in the Bible.  In Acts 5:29, it states, ‘We ought to obey God rather than men.’”

“The Bible clearly teaches that God created marriage between male and female as a divine gift that preserves families and cultures. Since I love and follow Him, I cannot put my signature on something that is against God.  Deuteronomy 10:12 says, ‘…What does the Lord your God ask of you but to fear the Lord your God, to walk in all His ways, to love Him, to serve the Lord your God with all your heart and soul, and to observe the Lord’s commands and decrees that I am giving you today for your own good.’”

http://www.towleroad.com/2011/07/ny-broome-county-clerk-resigns-over-same-sex-marriage-cites-biblical-law.html

Good and Good indeed.
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« Reply #36 on: July 24, 2011, 11:00:42 PM »

Good. If she can't do her job she should quit. Hope the door didn't hit her. If she needs a job, there's a KFC near me hiring.
Is that what they did with all those clerks who issued certificates to gay couples in San Francisco?
They were doing thier job, the issued certificates in accordance with thier superiors' interpretation of the law as it was at the time. Funny, I've never heard of a "Christian" official resigning because they couldn't bring them selves to issue marriage certificates to divorced persons, but then heterosexual proclivities are always forgiveable aren't they?
Actually this is the second case someone has resigned over this issue.
In that case good and good.
“I believe that there is a higher law than the law of the land. It is the law of God in the Bible.  In Acts 5:29, it states, ‘We ought to obey God rather than men.’”

“The Bible clearly teaches that God created marriage between male and female as a divine gift that preserves families and cultures. Since I love and follow Him, I cannot put my signature on something that is against God.  Deuteronomy 10:12 says, ‘…What does the Lord your God ask of you but to fear the Lord your God, to walk in all His ways, to love Him, to serve the Lord your God with all your heart and soul, and to observe the Lord’s commands and decrees that I am giving you today for your own good.’”

http://www.towleroad.com/2011/07/ny-broome-county-clerk-resigns-over-same-sex-marriage-cites-biblical-law.html

Good and Good indeed.
If that is the case, why didn't they resign the first time they were required to sign a certificate for a divorced person?
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« Reply #37 on: July 24, 2011, 11:02:31 PM »

IIRC you live in England no? If not my bad.
No. I live in a country where we elect our head of state, rather then leave it to a genetic lottery.
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« Reply #38 on: July 24, 2011, 11:02:43 PM »

Wow, somebody believes whatever he hears on the talk shows...  Roll Eyes

Nope its very very real
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« Reply #39 on: July 24, 2011, 11:05:50 PM »

Good. If she can't do her job she should quit. Hope the door didn't hit her. If she needs a job, there's a KFC near me hiring.
Is that what they did with all those clerks who issued certificates to gay couples in San Francisco?
They were doing thier job, the issued certificates in accordance with thier superiors' interpretation of the law as it was at the time.
So just following orders, as I noted above.
Funny, I've never heard of a "Christian" official resigning because they couldn't bring them selves to issue marriage certificates to divorced persons, but then heterosexual proclivities are always forgiveable aren't they?
That's now a proclivity the gays share: as I noted above, gay divorce preceeded gay "marriage"/civil union in both IL and NY.

And the issue of a divorcee depends on the circumstances, at least for Christians.  For Muslims and yourself, all a woman would need would be a get. For a gay "marriage," all the facts one needs are evident: or should be. In IL we had a court case where the woman turned out to be a transexual, who counts (at the time at least) as being the same sex he started with: he had claimed that the clerk issuing a marriage certificate recognized him as a she.  The Appellate Court didn't buy it.
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« Reply #40 on: July 24, 2011, 11:07:10 PM »

IIRC you live in England no? If not my bad.
No. I live in a country where we elect our head of state, rather then leave it to a genetic lottery.
jealous that you lost out?
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« Reply #41 on: July 24, 2011, 11:09:03 PM »

Good. If she can't do her job she should quit. Hope the door didn't hit her. If she needs a job, there's a KFC near me hiring.
Is that what they did with all those clerks who issued certificates to gay couples in San Francisco?
They were doing thier job, the issued certificates in accordance with thier superiors' interpretation of the law as it was at the time. Funny, I've never heard of a "Christian" official resigning because they couldn't bring them selves to issue marriage certificates to divorced persons, but then heterosexual proclivities are always forgiveable aren't they?
Actually this is the second case someone has resigned over this issue.
In that case good and good.
“I believe that there is a higher law than the law of the land. It is the law of God in the Bible.  In Acts 5:29, it states, ‘We ought to obey God rather than men.’”

“The Bible clearly teaches that God created marriage between male and female as a divine gift that preserves families and cultures. Since I love and follow Him, I cannot put my signature on something that is against God.  Deuteronomy 10:12 says, ‘…What does the Lord your God ask of you but to fear the Lord your God, to walk in all His ways, to love Him, to serve the Lord your God with all your heart and soul, and to observe the Lord’s commands and decrees that I am giving you today for your own good.’”

http://www.towleroad.com/2011/07/ny-broome-county-clerk-resigns-over-same-sex-marriage-cites-biblical-law.html

Good and Good indeed.
If that is the case, why didn't they resign the first time they were required to sign a certificate for a divorced person?
What's it to you?  You have the get.
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« Reply #42 on: July 24, 2011, 11:28:53 PM »

Good. If she can't do her job she should quit. Hope the door didn't hit her. If she needs a job, there's a KFC near me hiring.
Is that what they did with all those clerks who issued certificates to gay couples in San Francisco?
They were doing thier job, the issued certificates in accordance with thier superiors' interpretation of the law as it was at the time. Funny, I've never heard of a "Christian" official resigning because they couldn't bring them selves to issue marriage certificates to divorced persons, but then heterosexual proclivities are always forgiveable aren't they?
Actually this is the second case someone has resigned over this issue.
In that case good and good.
“I believe that there is a higher law than the law of the land. It is the law of God in the Bible.  In Acts 5:29, it states, ‘We ought to obey God rather than men.’”

“The Bible clearly teaches that God created marriage between male and female as a divine gift that preserves families and cultures. Since I love and follow Him, I cannot put my signature on something that is against God.  Deuteronomy 10:12 says, ‘…What does the Lord your God ask of you but to fear the Lord your God, to walk in all His ways, to love Him, to serve the Lord your God with all your heart and soul, and to observe the Lord’s commands and decrees that I am giving you today for your own good.’”

http://www.towleroad.com/2011/07/ny-broome-county-clerk-resigns-over-same-sex-marriage-cites-biblical-law.html

Good and Good indeed.
If that is the case, why didn't they resign the first time they were required to sign a certificate for a divorced person?
What's it to you?  You have the get.
When in doubt always reach for ad hom'
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« Reply #43 on: July 24, 2011, 11:30:02 PM »

IIRC you live in England no? If not my bad.
No. I live in a country where we elect our head of state, rather then leave it to a genetic lottery.
jealous that you lost out?
Not in the least. We won.
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« Reply #44 on: July 24, 2011, 11:38:44 PM »

New York Town Clerk Quits Over Opposition to Gay Marriage

A town clerk in western New York says she's resigning over her religious opposition to gay marriage.
 
Laura Fotusky submitted a letter of resignation to the town board in Barker on Monday, saying her religious beliefs prevent her from signing a marriage certificate for a gay couple, as she'd be required to do as a municipal clerk. The letter was published on the website of the Christian lobbying group New Yorkers for Constitutional Freedoms...

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« Reply #45 on: July 25, 2011, 12:21:35 AM »

IIRC you live in England no? If not my bad.
No. I live in a country where we elect our head of state, rather then leave it to a genetic lottery.

Here you going dissing the Royal Family again. I am going to ask nicely, stop doing that.
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« Reply #46 on: July 25, 2011, 12:21:36 AM »

IIRC you live in England no? If not my bad.
No. I live in a country where we elect our head of state, rather then leave it to a genetic lottery.
jealous that you lost out?
Not in the least. We won.

I'm going to chuckle to myself.  Cheesy
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« Reply #47 on: July 25, 2011, 05:57:07 AM »

Good. If she can't do her job she should quit. Hope the door didn't hit her. If she needs a job, there's a KFC near me hiring.
Is that what they did with all those clerks who issued certificates to gay couples in San Francisco?
They were doing thier job, the issued certificates in accordance with thier superiors' interpretation of the law as it was at the time. Funny, I've never heard of a "Christian" official resigning because they couldn't bring them selves to issue marriage certificates to divorced persons, but then heterosexual proclivities are always forgiveable aren't they?
Actually this is the second case someone has resigned over this issue.
In that case good and good.
“I believe that there is a higher law than the law of the land. It is the law of God in the Bible.  In Acts 5:29, it states, ‘We ought to obey God rather than men.’”

“The Bible clearly teaches that God created marriage between male and female as a divine gift that preserves families and cultures. Since I love and follow Him, I cannot put my signature on something that is against God.  Deuteronomy 10:12 says, ‘…What does the Lord your God ask of you but to fear the Lord your God, to walk in all His ways, to love Him, to serve the Lord your God with all your heart and soul, and to observe the Lord’s commands and decrees that I am giving you today for your own good.’”

http://www.towleroad.com/2011/07/ny-broome-county-clerk-resigns-over-same-sex-marriage-cites-biblical-law.html

Good and Good indeed.
If that is the case, why didn't they resign the first time they were required to sign a certificate for a divorced person?
What's it to you?  You have the get.
When in doubt always reach for ad hom'
What ad hom'? You apostacized from the Church that has a prohibition against the divorce, for the Law of the Pharisees that doesn't. All facts, no?

So what position are you in to worry about a clerk's beliefs about the remarriage of the divorced, when you don't recognize such a prohibition yourself?
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« Reply #48 on: July 25, 2011, 06:19:26 AM »

What prohibition against divorce? The Eastern Orthodox Church permits remarriage after divorce, as does the Episcopal Church.
 

Huh


Or is Isa arguing from the image of perfection that seems to exist only in his mind?   Tongue


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« Reply #49 on: July 25, 2011, 10:00:03 AM »

Good. If she can't do her job she should quit. Hope the door didn't hit her. If she needs a job, there's a KFC near me hiring.
Is that what they did with all those clerks who issued certificates to gay couples in San Francisco?
They were doing thier job, the issued certificates in accordance with thier superiors' interpretation of the law as it was at the time. Funny, I've never heard of a "Christian" official resigning because they couldn't bring them selves to issue marriage certificates to divorced persons, but then heterosexual proclivities are always forgiveable aren't they?
Actually this is the second case someone has resigned over this issue.
In that case good and good.
“I believe that there is a higher law than the law of the land. It is the law of God in the Bible.  In Acts 5:29, it states, ‘We ought to obey God rather than men.’”

“The Bible clearly teaches that God created marriage between male and female as a divine gift that preserves families and cultures. Since I love and follow Him, I cannot put my signature on something that is against God.  Deuteronomy 10:12 says, ‘…What does the Lord your God ask of you but to fear the Lord your God, to walk in all His ways, to love Him, to serve the Lord your God with all your heart and soul, and to observe the Lord’s commands and decrees that I am giving you today for your own good.’”

http://www.towleroad.com/2011/07/ny-broome-county-clerk-resigns-over-same-sex-marriage-cites-biblical-law.html

Good and Good indeed.
If that is the case, why didn't they resign the first time they were required to sign a certificate for a divorced person?
What's it to you?  You have the get.
When in doubt always reach for ad hom'
What ad hom'? You apostacized from the Church that has a prohibition against the divorce, for the Law of the Pharisees that doesn't. All facts, no?

So what position are you in to worry about a clerk's beliefs about the remarriage of the divorced, when you don't recognize such a prohibition yourself?
i was just trying to point out the hypocrisy of refusaing to sign liceses for same sex couples, while not refusing to do the same for a divorced person.
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« Reply #50 on: July 25, 2011, 10:01:47 AM »

What prohibition against divorce? The Eastern Orthodox Church permits remarriage after divorce, as does the Episcopal Church.
 

Huh


Or is Isa arguing from the image of perfection that seems to exist only in his mind?   Tongue
No, but Talliot seems to be.
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« Reply #51 on: July 25, 2011, 10:03:34 AM »

Good. If she can't do her job she should quit. Hope the door didn't hit her. If she needs a job, there's a KFC near me hiring.
Is that what they did with all those clerks who issued certificates to gay couples in San Francisco?
They were doing thier job, the issued certificates in accordance with thier superiors' interpretation of the law as it was at the time. Funny, I've never heard of a "Christian" official resigning because they couldn't bring them selves to issue marriage certificates to divorced persons, but then heterosexual proclivities are always forgiveable aren't they?
Actually this is the second case someone has resigned over this issue.
In that case good and good.
“I believe that there is a higher law than the law of the land. It is the law of God in the Bible.  In Acts 5:29, it states, ‘We ought to obey God rather than men.’”

“The Bible clearly teaches that God created marriage between male and female as a divine gift that preserves families and cultures. Since I love and follow Him, I cannot put my signature on something that is against God.  Deuteronomy 10:12 says, ‘…What does the Lord your God ask of you but to fear the Lord your God, to walk in all His ways, to love Him, to serve the Lord your God with all your heart and soul, and to observe the Lord’s commands and decrees that I am giving you today for your own good.’”

http://www.towleroad.com/2011/07/ny-broome-county-clerk-resigns-over-same-sex-marriage-cites-biblical-law.html

Good and Good indeed.
If that is the case, why didn't they resign the first time they were required to sign a certificate for a divorced person?
What's it to you?  You have the get.
When in doubt always reach for ad hom'
What ad hom'? You apostacized from the Church that has a prohibition against the divorce, for the Law of the Pharisees that doesn't. All facts, no?

So what position are you in to worry about a clerk's beliefs about the remarriage of the divorced, when you don't recognize such a prohibition yourself?
i was just trying to point out the hypocrisy of refusaing to sign liceses for same sex couples, while not refusing to do the same for a divorced person.
That presumes that they have a problem with remarrying a divorced person. Many (most?) Protestants do not.   Now, that a deficiency in their sectarian theology, but that's also a different question than they one you are taking them to task for.
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« Reply #52 on: July 25, 2011, 10:13:06 AM »

Bottom line: same sex marriage is legal in New York. If this person couldn't or wouldn't carry out the duties of the position it's a good thing that she resigned. Now someone who can do the job can step in.
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« Reply #53 on: July 25, 2011, 10:16:11 AM »

Bottom line: same sex marriage is legal in New York. If this person couldn't or wouldn't carry out the duties of the position it's a good thing that she resigned. Now someone who can do the job can step in.

Bottom(er) line: Legality doesn't equal morality. If she truly believes it to be immoral to be required to perform certain job functions, she should quit. She did.
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« Reply #54 on: July 25, 2011, 10:27:56 AM »

i was just trying to point out the hypocrisy of refusaing to sign liceses for same sex couples, while not refusing to do the same for a divorced person.

Does it actually state on a marriage certificate that one of the parties is a divorcee?
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« Reply #55 on: July 25, 2011, 10:37:40 AM »

Bottom line: same sex marriage is legal in New York. If this person couldn't or wouldn't carry out the duties of the position it's a good thing that she resigned. Now someone who can do the job can step in.

Bottom(er) line: Legality doesn't equal morality. If she truly believes it to be immoral to be required to perform certain job functions, she should quit. She did.

Took the words right out of my mouth. Was not slavery legal only 150 years ago in this country? How would folks like Tallitot justify that?

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« Reply #56 on: July 25, 2011, 10:45:30 AM »

This is a little bit different than signing divorce papers.

Look at it this way... The Orthodox Church allows up to 3 divorces, and even 1 divorce should be avoided at all costs. But it is not the job of the Town Clerk to investigate and judge the state of the divorce.

However, the Orthodox Church does not allow homosexual marriage (or homosexual relationships) under any circumstances, at anytime, or anywhere.

Now, I know this woman isn't Orthodox. But I'm just trying to illustrate a point. There is a big difference between divorces and homosexual marriage. Traditionally, Christianity has permitted divorces as a last resort. But it has never, ever allowed homosexual relationships.
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« Reply #57 on: July 25, 2011, 11:06:19 AM »

Bottom line: same sex marriage is legal in New York. If this person couldn't or wouldn't carry out the duties of the position it's a good thing that she resigned. Now someone who can do the job can step in.

Bottom(er) line: Legality doesn't equal morality. If she truly believes it to be immoral to be required to perform certain job functions, she should quit. She did.

Took the words right out of my mouth. Was not slavery legal only 150 years ago in this country? How would folks like Tallitot justify that?
Like Thomas Jefferson, no doubt: blame the British Monarchy.
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« Reply #58 on: July 25, 2011, 11:09:24 AM »

i was just trying to point out the hypocrisy of refusaing to sign liceses for same sex couples, while not refusing to do the same for a divorced person.

Does it actually state on a marriage certificate that one of the parties is a divorcee?

In IL IIRC you have to swear you have never been married, or are divorced and have to produce the divorce decree.  Basically Talliot either wants the clerk to not recognize any divorce (which would be applicable only if she were in submission to the Vatican, and even then to get an annullment you first have to get a divorce), or empower herself to second guess the judge who entered the divorce decree.
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« Reply #59 on: July 25, 2011, 11:18:17 AM »

Bottom line: same sex marriage is legal in New York. If this person couldn't or wouldn't carry out the duties of the position it's a good thing that she resigned.

So much for the ban on ex post facto.  It wasn't in her job description when she was hired.  It's been changed midterm.
Now someone who can do the job can step in.
Yes.  Many regimes depend on such people.

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« Reply #60 on: July 25, 2011, 11:54:57 AM »

IIRC you live in England no? If not my bad.
No. I live in a country where we elect our head of state, rather then leave it to a genetic lottery.

Given your dislike of genetic lotteries, one has to wonder why you converted to a religion where one's status as a member of the Chosen People is, in the vast majority of cases, decided by genetic lottery.
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« Reply #61 on: July 25, 2011, 12:27:18 PM »


Wow!   After Christians, Muslims form the largest religious grouping in the UK.
 
Presumably this court ruling will now bar all Muslims from becoming either foster parents or adoptive parents..... unless they are willing to state in front of adoption panels that they have renounced the Muslim teaching on homosexuality.


Iimagine when Muslims are told in court that they are forbidden to adopt Muslim children!!!  Hope the British judges have their homes bombproofed!
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« Reply #62 on: July 25, 2011, 12:42:35 PM »


Good observation.

I wonder if they will dare to oppose Islam.

...they don't "turn the other cheek".
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« Reply #63 on: July 25, 2011, 01:18:31 PM »

I could probably think of immoral things done in 50% of work places, and which Orthodox would have to directly be involved in (or even supplying the immoral service)... are people going to quit being lawyers, chefs, or even bookstore workers because someone might do something immoral?
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« Reply #64 on: July 25, 2011, 01:22:46 PM »

I could probably think of immoral things done in 50% of work places, and which Orthodox would have to directly be involved in (or even supplying the immoral service)... are people going to quit being lawyers, chefs, or even bookstore workers because someone might do something immoral?

Might? Probably not. But required? I'd be surprised otherwise.
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« Reply #65 on: July 25, 2011, 01:25:20 PM »

I could probably think of immoral things done in 50% of work places, and which Orthodox would have to directly be involved in (or even supplying the immoral service)... are people going to quit being lawyers, chefs, or even bookstore workers because someone might do something immoral?

Might? Probably not. But required? I'd be surprised otherwise.

You'd be suprised if they wouldn't quit?
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« Reply #66 on: July 25, 2011, 01:26:18 PM »

I could probably think of immoral things done in 50% of work places, and which Orthodox would have to directly be involved in (or even supplying the immoral service)... are people going to quit being lawyers, chefs, or even bookstore workers because someone might do something immoral?

Might? Probably not. But required? I'd be surprised otherwise.

You'd be suprised if they wouldn't quit?

I'd be surprised, if they didn't refuse to perform said immoral conduct.
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« Reply #67 on: July 25, 2011, 01:52:12 PM »

IIRC you live in England no? If not my bad.
No. I live in a country where we elect our head of state, rather then leave it to a genetic lottery.

Given your dislike of genetic lotteries, one has to wonder why you converted to a religion where one's status as a member of the Chosen People is, in the vast majority of cases, decided by genetic lottery.
LOL. PWND.

Btw, I won that genetic lottery.
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« Reply #68 on: July 25, 2011, 02:20:10 PM »

Just heard on the radio that a suit has been filed, saying that the NY legislature violated its procedures and the open meetings law (the same sort of thing that the left used to stop the law in WI on unions, ultimately without success).
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« Reply #69 on: July 25, 2011, 02:28:49 PM »

I could probably think of immoral things done in 50% of work places, and which Orthodox would have to directly be involved in (or even supplying the immoral service)... are people going to quit being lawyers, chefs, or even bookstore workers because someone might do something immoral?

Everyone else is doing it ....
I'd like to think most Orthodox Christians whose work contradicts the teachings they believe would get out of that position. Aren't we taught that our faith is more important than a job or monetary certainty? Thank God for the example of Martyr Cornelius the Centurion.
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« Reply #70 on: July 25, 2011, 02:32:51 PM »

IIRC you live in England no? If not my bad.
No. I live in a country where we elect our head of state, rather then leave it to a genetic lottery.

Given your dislike of genetic lotteries, one has to wonder why you converted to a religion where one's status as a member of the Chosen People is, in the vast majority of cases, decided by genetic lottery.
LOL. PWND.

Btw, I won that genetic lottery.
But not entirely, or I wouldn't have been able to join.
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« Reply #71 on: July 25, 2011, 02:35:45 PM »

I could probably think of immoral things done in 50% of work places, and which Orthodox would have to directly be involved in (or even supplying the immoral service)... are people going to quit being lawyers, chefs, or even bookstore workers because someone might do something immoral?

Everyone else is doing it ....
I'd like to think most Orthodox Christians whose work contradicts the teachings they believe would get out of that position. Aren't we taught that our faith is more important than a job or monetary certainty? Thank God for the example of Martyr Cornelius the Centurion.
Don't count on it. I knew a woman who was very active in GO parish, her family had belonged for several generations, etc. She ran a video store and would personally order the X-rated videos she rented. She saw nothing wrong with this since "they would only rent them somewhere else".
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« Reply #72 on: July 25, 2011, 02:41:10 PM »

I could probably think of immoral things done in 50% of work places, and which Orthodox would have to directly be involved in (or even supplying the immoral service)... are people going to quit being lawyers, chefs, or even bookstore workers because someone might do something immoral?

Everyone else is doing it ....
I'd like to think most Orthodox Christians whose work contradicts the teachings they believe would get out of that position. Aren't we taught that our faith is more important than a job or monetary certainty? Thank God for the example of Martyr Cornelius the Centurion.
Don't count on it. I knew a woman who was very active in GO parish, her family had belonged for several generations, etc. She ran a video store and would personally order the X-rated videos she rented. She saw nothing wrong with this since "they would only rent them somewhere else".

What's your point? That there are people who don't live by the faith they pretend to profess or otherwise reason out their failures.

Stop the surprises... can't take it... must... take... artificial sugar....
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« Reply #73 on: July 25, 2011, 02:42:41 PM »

IIRC you live in England no? If not my bad.
No. I live in a country where we elect our head of state, rather then leave it to a genetic lottery.

Here you going dissing the Royal Family again. I am going to ask nicely, stop doing that.
I was only refering to monarchies in general, I don't believe I mentioned any one by name.
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« Reply #74 on: July 25, 2011, 02:43:43 PM »

What's your point? That there are most people who don't live by the faith they pretend to profess or otherwise reason out their failures.

Fixxxed.  Cool
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« Reply #75 on: July 25, 2011, 02:46:15 PM »

What's your point? That most people don't live by the faith they pretend to profess or otherwise reason out their failures.

Fixxxed.  Cool

Which, like I said, is a perfectly good reason for anyone to continue to not live by that faith.
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« Reply #76 on: July 25, 2011, 02:47:04 PM »

What's your point? That there are most people who don't live by the faith they pretend to profess or otherwise reason out their failures.

Fixxxed.  Cool

So true... so true...
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« Reply #77 on: July 25, 2011, 02:48:03 PM »

A nice earthquake dumping SF and Hollywood into the sea, and global warming putting NYC under a mile of water could help.
Yes, I'm sure G-d'd getting ready to killhundreds of thousands of ppl to make you happy.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #78 on: July 25, 2011, 02:51:06 PM »

IIRC you live in England no? If not my bad.
No. I live in a country where we elect our head of state, rather then leave it to a genetic lottery.

Here you going dissing the Royal Family again. I am going to ask nicely, stop doing that.
I was only refering to monarchies in general, I don't believe I mentioned any one by name.
How about the Davidic?
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« Reply #79 on: July 25, 2011, 03:01:22 PM »

The Davidic monarchy hasn't ruled in ceturies.

Like I said before-this woman decided she couldn't do her job, she quit. Good move. I hope other clerks who feel the same way quit. It would be a shame if someone's special; day was ruined by a low level functionary who thought it was thier place to impose thier personal religious beliefs on the public.
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« Reply #80 on: July 25, 2011, 03:08:52 PM »

IIRC you live in England no? If not my bad.
No. I live in a country where we elect our head of state, rather then leave it to a genetic lottery.

Given your dislike of genetic lotteries, one has to wonder why you converted to a religion where one's status as a member of the Chosen People is, in the vast majority of cases, decided by genetic lottery.
LOL. PWND.

Btw, I won that genetic lottery.
But not entirely, or I wouldn't have been able to join.
Quote
According to tannaitic law a proselyte has no share in the land of Israel and is unable to say in his prayers 'Our God and God of our fathers'.The son or daughter of a proselyte was known as a proselyte, the epithet disappearing only when the 'proselyte' was the offspring of a native Jewish mother.
http://books.google.com/books?id=MA-4VX5gWS4C&pg=PA944&dq=Talmud+proselyte+God+of++our+fathers+their+fathers+Israel&hl=en&ei=yr0tTp_kI6-HsALczPSmCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Talmud%20proselyte%20God%20of%20%20our%20fathers%20their%20fathers%20Israel&f=false
Quote
When such proselyte prays by himself he uses the words, The God of the fathers of Israel. And when he is in the synagogue he uses the words, The God of your fathers. But if his mother be of Israel he says, The God of our fathers.
http://books.google.com/books?id=pX6Q6C7wV2wC&pg=PA326&dq=Talmud+proselyte+God+of++our+fathers+their+fathers+Israel&hl=en&ei=4L4tTsjKE8HksQL_0ITmBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q&f=false
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« Reply #81 on: July 25, 2011, 03:12:54 PM »

The Davidic monarchy hasn't ruled in ceturies.
Quote
Belief in the eventual coming of the mashiach is a basic and fundamental part of traditional Judaism. It is part of Rambam's 13 Principles of Faith, the minimum requirements of Jewish belief. In the Shemoneh Esrei prayer, recited three times daily, we pray for all of the elements of the coming of the mashiach: ingathering of the exiles; restoration of the religious courts of justice; an end of wickedness, sin and heresy; reward to the righteous; rebuilding of Jerusalem; restoration of the line of King David; and restoration of Temple service.

Like I said before-this woman decided she couldn't do her job, she quit. Good move. I hope other clerks who feel the same way quit. It would be a shame if someone's special; day was ruined by a low level functionary who thought it was thier place to impose thier personal religious beliefs on the public.
And you will feel the same way if the law is overturned for violation of the open meetings law, the suit now in court, and clerks who support the law as it stands now resign rather than have to refuse licenses to gay couples?

She didn't decide she couldn't do her job.  Her job was changed so she couldn't do it.
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« Reply #82 on: July 25, 2011, 03:16:24 PM »

A nice earthquake dumping SF and Hollywood into the sea, and global warming putting NYC under a mile of water could help.
Yes, I'm sure G-d'd getting ready to killhundreds of thousands of ppl to make you happy.  Roll Eyes
My happiness, sadness or indifference has no bearing on the matter.
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« Reply #83 on: July 25, 2011, 03:23:44 PM »

Quote
It's only been one day since gay weddings have officially been able to commence in New York state after a historic vote allowed the Marriage Equality bill to pass legislative hurdles in June. Already, though, opponents of the bill have filed a lawsuit in the state court saying that "New York's Senate violated its own procedures and the state's open meetings law when it approved the bill on June 24,"....The group also claims, among other things, that Gov. [Andrew] Cuomo and the Senate ignored the constitutionally mandated three-day waiting period before a bill can be acted upon and that lawmakers approved the legislation in exchange for campaign contributions from Bloomberg and other high profile "Wall Street financiers."
http://www.theatlanticwire.com/politics/2011/07/gay-marriage-opponents-suing-new-york-state/40364/

Lord willing, this will be CA and ME all over again.
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« Reply #84 on: July 25, 2011, 03:29:58 PM »

I'd like to say, if you came here to bach the Royal Family, stop (You know who I'm talking too).  police
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« Reply #85 on: July 25, 2011, 03:40:03 PM »

I'd like to say, if you came here to bach the Royal Family, stop (You know who I'm talking too).  police

Bach, what about Bach??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipzR9bhei_o

No one is bashing the Royal Family. We are having a tangential discussion.
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« Reply #86 on: July 25, 2011, 04:07:59 PM »

I'd like to say, if you came here to bach the Royal Family, stop (You know who I'm talking too).  police
Which "royal" family? There's a plethora of them around the world>
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« Reply #87 on: July 25, 2011, 04:11:23 PM »

I'd like to say, if you came here to bach the Royal Family, stop (You know who I'm talking too).  police
Which "royal" family? There's a plethora of them around the world>
There are 4-7 continents around the world, but in English, when you say "the Continent," you have one in mind.  So too "the Royal Family," particularly when capitalized.
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« Reply #88 on: July 25, 2011, 04:30:49 PM »

i was just trying to point out the hypocrisy of refusaing to sign liceses for same sex couples, while not refusing to do the same for a divorced person.

Does it actually state on a marriage certificate that one of the parties is a divorcee?


FYI:  In New York, the uniform state license application asks the marital status of the parties; if the applicants indicate that one or both are divorced, then the Clerk is obligated to obtain additional information regarding the status of the prior marriage(s) prior to issuing a license.
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« Reply #89 on: July 25, 2011, 04:35:36 PM »

IIRC you live in England no? If not my bad.
No. I live in a country where we elect our head of state, rather then leave it to a genetic lottery.

Given your dislike of genetic lotteries, one has to wonder why you converted to a religion where one's status as a member of the Chosen People is, in the vast majority of cases, decided by genetic lottery.
One has to wonder how other Jews in his synagogue embrace his homosexuality too.
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« Reply #90 on: July 25, 2011, 04:54:43 PM »

IIRC you live in England no? If not my bad.
No. I live in a country where we elect our head of state, rather then leave it to a genetic lottery.

Given your dislike of genetic lotteries, one has to wonder why you converted to a religion where one's status as a member of the Chosen People is, in the vast majority of cases, decided by genetic lottery.
One has to wonder how other Jews in his synagogue embrace his homosexuality too.
Let's see:
We went through our conversion ceremony together, the rabbi and the elders on our beit din were aware of our status as a couple.
We're listed on the membership roles as a family.
My sig-other sings in the choir.
I was recently elected to the synagogue board.
We have done Torah honors and other liturgical functions as a couple.
Friends have invited us a couple to take part in bar and bat mitzvahs.
We are invited to social events as a couple.
Draw your own conclusions as to whether or not we're accepted in our synagogue.
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« Reply #91 on: July 25, 2011, 05:04:12 PM »

IIRC you live in England no? If not my bad.
No. I live in a country where we elect our head of state, rather then leave it to a genetic lottery.

Given your dislike of genetic lotteries, one has to wonder why you converted to a religion where one's status as a member of the Chosen People is, in the vast majority of cases, decided by genetic lottery.
One has to wonder how other Jews in his synagogue embrace his homosexuality too.
Let's see:
We went through our conversion ceremony together, the rabbi and the elders on our beit din were aware of our status as a couple.
We're listed on the membership roles as a family.
My sig-other sings in the choir.
I was recently elected to the synagogue board.
We have done Torah honors and other liturgical functions as a couple.
Friends have invited us a couple to take part in bar and bat mitzvahs.
We are invited to social events as a couple.
Draw your own conclusions as to whether or not we're accepted in our synagogue.

And the most important guest is missing: God. Or is He absent from your synagogue.
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« Reply #92 on: July 25, 2011, 05:13:21 PM »

So now you can judge where G-d is and isn't?
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« Reply #93 on: July 25, 2011, 05:18:08 PM »

So now you can judge where G-d is and isn't?
No but I can spot an oxymoron when I see it. Do you ask for bacon on your chicken sandwich at KFC too?
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« Reply #94 on: July 25, 2011, 05:25:08 PM »

So now you can judge where G-d is and isn't?
No but I can spot an oxymoron when I see it. Do you ask for bacon on your chicken sandwich at KFC too?
With cheese?
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« Reply #95 on: July 25, 2011, 05:34:49 PM »

So now you can judge where G-d is and isn't?
No but I can spot an oxymoron when I see it. Do you ask for bacon on your chicken sandwich at KFC too?
With cheese?

Toasted?

mmmmmm
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« Reply #96 on: July 25, 2011, 05:36:24 PM »

That double-down sure is delicious. angel
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« Reply #97 on: July 25, 2011, 05:57:31 PM »

So now you can judge where G-d is and isn't?

Apparently he can judge much more than that.


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« Reply #98 on: July 25, 2011, 05:57:59 PM »

Quote
A nice earthquake dumping SF and Hollywood into the sea, and global warming putting NYC under a mile of water could help.
Yes, I'm sure G-d'd getting ready to killhundreds of thousands of ppl to make you happy. 
My happiness, sadness or indifference has no bearing on the matter.

So why write such an abhorrent thing in the first place? Really, who exactly would it please to see millions of people perish so that so many bigots wouldn't have to lose sleep over sharing the continent with (gulp) homosexuals?
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« Reply #99 on: July 25, 2011, 06:09:41 PM »

Quote from: ialmisry
A nice earthquake dumping SF and Hollywood into the sea, and global warming putting NYC under a mile of water could help.

Exodus 20:13: Thou shalt not kill.

I cannot fully say what I think about Isa's post above without violating site language rules and getting thrown out.

And people wonder why I lost faith.
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« Reply #100 on: July 25, 2011, 06:21:03 PM »

Nvm
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« Reply #101 on: July 25, 2011, 06:25:43 PM »

The ironic thing is that the EO parish I belonged to pretty much accepted us as acouple on a DADT basis; we were invited to socialize with other families as a couple, everyone would always say "say hi to Joe for me" everyone thought it was great that I could put him on my insurance etc. So i guessw G-d wasn't there either.
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« Reply #102 on: July 25, 2011, 06:27:40 PM »

Nvm
No Video Made?
Nun's Vegan Meal?
Non-Voting Memeber? Huh
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« Reply #103 on: July 25, 2011, 06:29:17 PM »


NVM = Nevermind
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« Reply #104 on: July 25, 2011, 06:33:45 PM »

Quote from: ialmisry
A nice earthquake dumping SF and Hollywood into the sea, and global warming putting NYC under a mile of water could help.

Exodus 20:13: Thou shalt not kill.

I cannot fully say what I think about Isa's post above without violating site language rules and getting thrown out.

And people wonder why I lost faith.
Because your beliefs are unsteady and unstable, and crumble when your assertions are not accepted?
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« Reply #105 on: July 25, 2011, 06:35:26 PM »

Quote
A nice earthquake dumping SF and Hollywood into the sea, and global warming putting NYC under a mile of water could help.
Yes, I'm sure G-d'd getting ready to killhundreds of thousands of ppl to make you happy. 
My happiness, sadness or indifference has no bearing on the matter.

So why write such an abhorrent thing in the first place? Really, who exactly would it please to see millions of people perish so that so many bigots wouldn't have to lose sleep over sharing the continent with (gulp) homosexuals?
LOL. The gay agenda is by far not the only thing SF, LA and NYC are hell bent on afflicting the rest of us with.
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« Reply #106 on: July 25, 2011, 06:36:37 PM »

Quote from: ialmisry
A nice earthquake dumping SF and Hollywood into the sea, and global warming putting NYC under a mile of water could help.

Exodus 20:13: Thou shalt not kill.

I cannot fully say what I think about Isa's post above without violating site language rules and getting thrown out.

And people wonder why I lost faith.

Where you just saying that....or have you lost faith?

Why?

Hopefully not from reading posts on an Internet Forum. 

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« Reply #107 on: July 25, 2011, 06:46:06 PM »

I have. Look at Isa's posts about hoping everyone in New York, San Francisco and Hollywood dies. Look at his subsequent crack calling my beliefs (and by implication, me) unstable. Look at him posting pictures comparing gay people to Nazis and Communists.

I don't like that kind of thing.

Just in case you're wondering, I'm not gay. I just don't think people should have unequal legal rights. The Fourteenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution says:

"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws." 

(underlining is mine)

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/constitution_amendments_11-27.html

If you don't agree with me, that's fine. That much I can take. But I can't take the kind of things that have been going on here. If that makes me wrong, so be it.

I have been trying to figure out what to say in a letter to my priest. I just don't know.
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« Reply #108 on: July 25, 2011, 07:00:31 PM »

my friend blogged on this, and thought he raised a few good points
(WARNING: This specific post i am linking to is clean, however if you veer off the post there are things that may offend the reader and is unsavoury for consumption. I repeat however, this post is clean
Quote
In case you missed it, Ms. Fotusky is the Town Clerk of some shit town in southern New York that resigned rather than have to issue marriage licenses to homosexuals.  Conservative groups have made a big to-do about how much of a hero Fotusky is for choosing God over her job when she really hasn't done anything of the sort...
http://criminallyvu1gar.blogspot.com/2011/07/laura-l-fotusky-is-joke-and-liar.html
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« Reply #109 on: July 25, 2011, 07:01:51 PM »

I have. Look at Isa's posts about hoping everyone in New York, San Francisco and Hollywood dies.
Too bad for you there's truth in it.

Quote
Look at his subsequent crack calling my beliefs (and by implication, me) unstable.
You've been wobbling only to topple over, and it didn't need an earthquake involved.

Quote
Look at him posting pictures comparing gay people to Nazis and Communists.
Which comparision was that?

Quote
I don't like that kind of thing.
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?action=logout;sesc=5ca0f093eea55fa73131f6dc10a10758
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« Reply #110 on: July 25, 2011, 07:02:12 PM »

I have. Look at Isa's posts about hoping everyone in New York, San Francisco and Hollywood dies. Look at his subsequent crack calling my beliefs (and by implication, me) unstable. Look at him posting pictures comparing gay people to Nazis and Communists.

I don't like that kind of thing.

Just in case you're wondering, I'm not gay. I just don't think people should have unequal legal rights. The Fourteenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution says:

"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."  

(underlining is mine)

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/constitution_amendments_11-27.html

If you don't agree with me, that's fine. That much I can take. But I can't take the kind of things that have been going on here. If that makes me wrong, so be it.
And so it is. But then we've gone over that a couple times already IIRC.

Let's talk of equal rights.  Everyone, heterosexual that is, has the right to have children, because they can.  Now, because of your interpretation of the 14th Ammendment, is the Federal Government responsible to provide gay couples with the children they can't have?

Btw, since you disagree with me on politics, let alone the Faith, are you going to renounce your citizenship too?
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« Reply #111 on: July 25, 2011, 08:01:57 PM »

I have. Look at Isa's posts about hoping everyone in New York, San Francisco and Hollywood dies. Look at his subsequent crack calling my beliefs (and by implication, me) unstable. Look at him posting pictures comparing gay people to Nazis and Communists.

I don't like that kind of thing.

Just in case you're wondering, I'm not gay. I just don't think people should have unequal legal rights. The Fourteenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution says:

"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws." 

(underlining is mine)

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/constitution_amendments_11-27.html

If you don't agree with me, that's fine. That much I can take. But I can't take the kind of things that have been going on here. If that makes me wrong, so be it.

I have been trying to figure out what to say in a letter to my priest. I just don't know.

Biro.

First of all.  The posters of this forum, as esteemed, knowledgeable and righteous at they may be....are not the Church.  Just because you disagree with a poster or two doesn't mean you have to leave the Church.

Isa's comments about the SF and earthquakes, and whatever natural disaster.....was meant to say that an act of God might wake people up....and have them rethink their lives.  However, I fear that wouldn't be the case.  Too many folks are blind to such things.  They would simply write it off as the normal cycle of the ecological natural world we live in.  God would have nothing to do with any thing.

As for the 14th Amendment....that is a government thing, not a Church doctrine.

However, the Church does teach to love each other, even to love and pray for your enemies.  However, the Church also teaches against homosexual activity.  We are not taught to hurt anyone, but, we are also not taught to sit idly by and let things happen.

You mistook Isa's photos of Nazis to represent his views of gays.  I think what he was trying to show was not the gays, themselves, but, the complacent people who didn't stand up to stop what they saw was a bad thing happening.  In other words, folks who realize that an action is wrong, and will only lead to worse situations in the future, however, for whatever reason (fear, shame, want to be cool and politically correct, accepted, etc) do nothing to stop the disaster they see coming on the horizon.

As was noted above, gay marriage undermines the "family" unit.  This will cause nothing but trouble.  The family is the core of each one of us (next to God and Church).  Families teach us, guide us, etc.  If that one family that was mentioned was prohibited to be foster parents because they were anti-gay....this already bodes ill.

Already in California they are changing the school books to teach "gay history".  What?  What is gay history?  Why do they need to know a "history" that is based on sexual orientation.  If we are teaching and promoting equality....this seems that "gays" are making themselves out to be special, and not equal to others.

I think you are hurt and upset.   However, if you take a big step backwards, and think about all the repercussions of this new "equality" you will have to admit, it's messing with family, society, etc.

I hope and pray you rethink your stance and don't take things so personally.  Remember, the Church does teach against homosexual activity, but, does not teach to harm anyone of any orientation.   As much as we like to think we know best....we must acquiesce to God and His knowledge.

I pray for peace in this world, but, I fear it's going to be a bumpy ride....
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« Reply #112 on: July 25, 2011, 08:59:02 PM »

What does a civil marriage certificate have to do with the sacrament of marriage as observed by the Church? Nothing. I can't see anyone or anything stopping gay civil marriages from growing more and more acceptable in our society. A civil marriage has nothing to do with religion, so let them have it, I say. Then all of this nonsense can simmer down to silence (hopefully). Gays can enjoy their civil legal marriages, and Christians can enjoy their sacramental marriages. 

Should we also just accept that abortion is okay in the eyes of Americans and that we can't do anything to change? Of course not. We are called to bring the truth to these people.
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« Reply #113 on: July 25, 2011, 08:59:03 PM »

So now you can judge where G-d is and isn't?

God? lol.  Wink
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« Reply #114 on: July 25, 2011, 09:36:57 PM »

So now you can judge where G-d is and isn't?

God? lol.  Wink
Yeah you think it's ridiculous for someone to try to show some respect for the Creator, but let someone fail to genuflect to one of your worldy heros, such as the Windsors and boy do your knickers get twisted. One wonders who you truly worship.
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« Reply #115 on: July 25, 2011, 09:53:19 PM »

So now you can judge where G-d is and isn't?

God? lol.  Wink

Jewish people believe it is disrespectful to write "God". Thus, they add a dash in place of the "o".
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« Reply #116 on: July 25, 2011, 09:57:22 PM »

So now you can judge where G-d is and isn't?

God? lol.  Wink
Yeah you think it's ridiculous for someone to try to show some respect for the Creator, but let someone fail to genuflect to one of your worldy heros, such as the Windsors and boy do your knickers get twisted. One wonders who you truly worship.

That's W-nds-rs.

I kid. I'm sorry. I had to.  Cheesy

I understand it's a sign of respect. It's just not a symbol that Christians typically use.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2011, 09:57:55 PM by Azurestone » Logged


I'm going to need this.
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
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Goodbye for now, my friend


« Reply #117 on: July 25, 2011, 10:03:08 PM »

Lighten up, Tallitot.

"It's our sense of humor that has sustained us as a people for 3,000 years" - Tim Whatley, convert to Judaism
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Paradosis ≠ Asteriktos ≠ Justin
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
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« Reply #118 on: July 25, 2011, 10:23:02 PM »

This is getting too personal. I will lock it for a few days to let everybody calm down. Sorry for the inconvenience. Second Chance
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Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
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