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Author Topic: Nick ordained !  (Read 7108 times) Average Rating: 0
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TomS
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« on: June 30, 2004, 04:17:35 PM »

Left to Right: Fr. Dionysi McGowan, Fr. Spyridon Schneider, Fr. Victor Melehov, Metropolitan Valentine, Fr. Vladimir Shishkoff, Hegumen Andrei, Fr. Photios Roseboro (fore), Hieromonk Gerasim, Fr. Deacon Nicholas Stanosheck

On June 14/27, Father Deacon Photios Roseboro was ordained to the Holy Priesthood for the Parish of St Andrew the First-called in Fredericksburg, VA.

On the same day, Nicholas Stanosheck was ordained to the Holy Diaconate for St Basil of Kineshima Parish in Colorado Springs, CO.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2004, 04:17:56 PM by Tom+ú » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2004, 04:20:19 PM »

What (arch)diocese?  ROCOR?
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« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2004, 04:26:56 PM »

What (arch)diocese?  ROCOR?

Ummm, No.

ROAC. Also known as AROC.

http://www.stjohntherussian.com/arocindex.html



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« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2004, 04:36:01 PM »

Ummm, No.

ROAC. Also known as AROC.

http://www.stjohntherussian.com/arocindex.html





Doh!
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« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2004, 05:36:50 PM »

I will enjoy a "shot" toast of Patron in Nicholas's honor!

Very good news.

james
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« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2004, 07:10:07 PM »

Where did you get the pic, Tom?
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« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2004, 07:35:45 PM »

Here:

http://www.stjohntherussian.com/weblog.html
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« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2004, 07:51:28 PM »

Egad, Abp. Gregory suspended?
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« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2004, 07:53:44 PM »

Egad, Abp. Gregory suspended?

Suspended? Phweet! He's OUTA THERE!

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« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2004, 08:00:18 PM »

What happened?

BTW, what is the right hand corner of the picture near Nick? It looks like the Theotokos.
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« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2004, 08:05:49 PM »

What happened?


That is still unknown -- but go here for more info:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/newboard/index.php?board=8;action=display;threadid=3814

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« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2004, 08:12:22 PM »

Ah, interesting. It seems that ROAC has "jumped the shark" like Happy Days.
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« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2004, 11:15:33 PM »

Is that a pipe running through the iconostasis?
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« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2004, 06:57:56 AM »

That is a pipe running through the iconostasis.
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« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2004, 08:48:18 AM »

Yeah. The church is in the basement of a house on Staten Island.

So, you see, they really ARE the remnants of the TRUE catacomb church!
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« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2004, 11:44:51 AM »

I have mixed feelings about this.  Nicks e-cafe (www.euphrosynoscafe.com) was my first introduction to Orthodox on-line discussions, but since his defection from the ROCOR to the "Russian Orthodox Autonomous Church" I've really been avoiding the e-cafe.  I don't want to encourage "Orthodox splinter groups," and I feel that by celebrating over this that's what I would be doing.  

If a bishop or a group has a problem with their own diocese, you should solve it in a conciliar and brotherly manner.  You don't break off and form your own church -- the "only true Orthodox church" ( and we hear this so much in Orthodoxy, it's very annoying) -- and declare everyone else schismatic or heretical.
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« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2004, 01:39:33 PM »

So, you see, they really ARE the remnants of the TRUE catacomb church!

 Roll Eyes  So, is there any place to find out what "uncanonical actions" he committed?  I checked the cafe and couldn't find anything.
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« Reply #17 on: July 01, 2004, 02:35:22 PM »

TomS posted a link to the Official Letter over on the E-cafe in the thread here "Archbishop Gregory...."

I looked at it.  Leaping Lena!!

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« Reply #18 on: July 01, 2004, 04:00:14 PM »

Thanks, Ebor...I had tried the link before and it wasn't working.  I see it is now.

<whistles>  He's in troooublllllllle...!
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« Reply #19 on: July 04, 2004, 12:58:42 AM »

Amazing...a man who a year ago this time was looking for a wife is now a deacon.  What a strange world we live in.
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« Reply #20 on: July 04, 2004, 09:54:49 AM »

Amazing...a man who a year ago this time was looking for a wife is now a deacon.  What a strange world we live in.
It may not be too late. If he were to become Orthodox again, he would be accepted back as a layman and could in theory get married and later ordained a deacon, as his current ordination is defective.  Of course, if he wished to become Orthodox once again and still serve as a celibate deacon, he could petition a canonical Orthodox bishop to receive him and correct his defective ordination through economia.  Either way, I pray that he finds his way back to the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #21 on: July 04, 2004, 09:11:25 PM »

Greetings:

I just thought that it might be best if I clear up a lot of misgivings and much misinformaion regarding two topics in this thread. In advance please forgive me.

It seems that there is some information that is being shared here that in many key areas is not correct and thus leading people ot the wrong conclusions. i wish to respond to two posts in particular.

Quote
If a bishop or a group has a problem with their own diocese, you should solve it in a conciliar and brotherly manner. You don't break off and form your own church -- the "only true Orthodox church" ( and we hear this so much in Orthodoxy, it's very annoying) -- and declare everyone else schismatic or heretical.

The ROAC has  never claimed in any official documents or Ukases that it is the only Orthodox Church, nor has it ever in the same manner considered itself the only Church with grace an all the others graceless.

Bishop Gregory is the ONLY person who has said this and he was reprimanded by the Metropolitan for doing so. As we see nothing seems to have come from that and he is still sharing this PERSONAL OPINION as if it were fact.  

You might all recall the website of Saint Seraphim Church in California a few months back had this stated upon it. This statement was put on the website at the direction of Bishop Gregory and because at the time he, Father John Claypool was under obedience to him, Bishop Gregory, as his bishop he complied. However, at the word of the Synod through the Metropolitan the first week that the Metropolitan was here Father John was told to remove the document from his site which he did within 24 hours of being told to do so.

As previously stated there is no document stating that there are only "X" ammount of churches that have grace and that all others do not.

All of the priests who are now directly under the authority of the Synod of the ROAC as Bishop Gregory has been retired and does not have the approval of the Synod to perform the Mysteries, know this and have been told by the Metropolitan himself that this is the case with grace.

My second point is with the following quote:

Quote
It may not be too late. If he were to become Orthodox again, he would be accepted back as a layman and could in theory get married and later ordained a deacon, as his current ordination is defective. Of course, if he wished to become Orthodox once again and still serve as a celibate deacon, he could petition a canonical Orthodox bishop to receive him and correct his defective ordination through economia. Either way, I pray that he finds his way back to the Orthodox Church.

I find this sad, epsecially in light of the above statements. How is it that one can have the audacity (I am generalizing here not attacking) to assume that the Mysteries of one Synd are valid and that another does not? Does this not mean that if they make this assumption and accusation that they know the thoughts and Will of God? This is sad. I believe that as I stated earlier that it is unfair for ROAC to be attacked as a whole because one bishop has errant views and he refuses to act in accordance with the Synod and its decisions.

Granted yes, in the past those who were under Bp. Gregory were of one mind with him, however, at least for me, it is because this is the same man we were asking spiritual guidance from and so these are the answers that we were given and in good faith we asumed that he was f one mind with the Synod. We were wrong. I on behalf of myself ask forgiveness for these misgivings and pray that in time forgiveness might be granted to me, if not by man than by God for not seeking the truth of the matter with those connected to the Synod.

I, even if I were not in ROAC would still see Nikolai's ordination as valid just as I see anyone else's ordination as valid because I do not have the right to judge the soul of another man or his vocation unless he or the man that ordained him is in error or schism.

As for the reason for the name of Father Deacon Nikoli and the reason for the change, this was totally on the part of Nikolai and was not mandatory. He was ordained in a Slavonic Church. His name in Slavonic is Nikolai and thus he chose to retain the name that was pronounced as his name at his ordination. For those who are wondering he will still answer to the name of Nicholas, but wit hthe repect and honor due the rank he has received.

I will, if allowed to do so, continue to respond to this thread as necassary and also as new information comes ot light I will share it with you.

I do not harbor hatred or anyone. My intent here is to correct som e information, however, if i am found in error please let me know. I will find any way I can to get the answers that you seek regarding this situation and will keep you up to date on its forthcoming events and statements.  

I appologize if I have offended anyone. I end my post the way I began it, Please forgive me.

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« Reply #22 on: July 04, 2004, 10:07:25 PM »

Julvenaly,

Your post was precise and charitable, I do not judge one's choice of affiliation for who am I to criticize.

I still count Deacon Nikolai as a friend and brother.

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« Reply #23 on: July 05, 2004, 10:02:29 AM »

(Now, where's my armored Canterbury cap?)

Much of the past of the on-line participants in this has been erased, but through the offices of the E-Cafe one can see the discussion that went back and forth from November into January.

Of particular interest is the thread What's Up With This About ROAC? in which it was revealed that

Quote
The most significant statement to come out of the session - and the real reason for its being convened - was: "Yes, we know that four hierarchs are ready to leave ROAC if Fr. Gregory is not defrocked"... "

A little futher along in the same thread there was this exchange between myself and Hegumen George:

Quote
Hegumen George wrote:
Quote
They are not only preparing to leave, but they are discussing among each other who is going to be elected the Metropolitan among the four of them. Oh yes, they are also going to decide on the city of their headquarters and of course the name of their new Church. Isn’t this laughable?

Does this mean I get to laugh if, in six months, the four can be assigned definite names, and their headquarters can be given a definite location, and the name of their new "jurisdiction" is being invoked by the converts they have managed to collect from this forum?

And now it is six months later, and I don't get to laugh per se, because it didn't work out quite that way. Instead, Gregory is out. And yet almost the entirety of ROAC in America seems to be of Gregory's creation. The clerics are almost entirely converts; the skete belongs to Gregory; even many of the laymen seem to be Gregory's creations.

It does seem possible that this "there is no grace outside of ROAC" stuff was Gregory and not Valentine or the synod speaking. That version was asserted from the beginning.  And yet the cultus that Gregory created is all still there. I for one have to wonder at how easily allegiance is being transferred from Gregory to Valentine himself. Those whose souls Gregory was reading just a few months ago are remarkably sanguine at his departure.
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« Reply #24 on: July 05, 2004, 10:27:18 AM »

Yes Keble. I must agree that these "apologies" we are now hearing from the Gregoryits are to be taken woth a grain of salt.

Anyone who was so easily duped by that man will probably in due time place themselves under another kook Bishop when they decide that Metropolitan Valentine is "too liberal" for them. Then they will be condemning all other Orthodox once again.

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« Reply #25 on: July 05, 2004, 11:13:33 AM »

Forgive me if I seem uncharitable, but we need to recognize that the ROAC Church is clearly a splinter group from ROCOR, and as such is not in communion with ANY canonical Orthodox Church.  It's in a similar status to Orthodoxy as say the Ukrainian Catholic Church is to Orthodoxy.  As such, Nikolai is indeed a validly consecrated deacon in that Church, but not in the Orthodox Church.  It would be uncharitable to pretend otherwise.
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« Reply #26 on: July 05, 2004, 01:10:00 PM »

Even St. Gregory the Theologian was completely duped by Maximus the Cynic. If you read the gushing compliments that St. Gregory gave about Maximus, and then read the vehement attacks and personal remarks he made afterwards, we might also conclude that we should take St. Gregory's words with a grain of salt, eh? We all go through times when we change our views of people. Sometimes we are just wrong. Smiley

I worry for Nicholas because of the weight that has been placed on his shoulders, but I believe he is one of those who can carry the weight righteously and piously. He needs our prayers, whether we consider ROAC "not really Orthodox" or not.
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« Reply #27 on: July 05, 2004, 01:23:07 PM »

Dear Juvenaly,

While you are here, I'd like to ask you some questions.  

The ROAC has  never claimed in any official documents or Ukases that it is the only Orthodox Church, nor has it ever in the same manner considered itself the only Church with grace an all the others graceless.

You claim above that ROAC has never claimed to be the only Orthodox Church, etc.  The impression I've gotten from my online reading is that ROAC at least considers itself one of the few remaining Orthodox Churches in the world, all the rest (including the infamous "world Orthodoxy") having fallen away.  I would like to know if there is any "majority opinion" in ROAC, either in its synod or among its members, of what other churches may be considered Orthodox Churches, regardless of whether or not ROAC is in communion with those.  Is there a list of "probables" that is generally accepted in ROAC, or do they really not take a position about anyone either way?  Would an individual in ROAC be able to remain a member in good standing and believe that, say, the Greeks and Antiochians were fully Orthodox Churches?  I would guess there are at least some churches that are automatically out of consideration from the ROAC point of view, and others that aren't.  Any idea on which is which?      

Quote
I find this sad, epsecially in light of the above statements. How is it that one can have the audacity (I am generalizing here not attacking) to assume that the Mysteries of one Synd are valid and that another does not? Does this not mean that if they make this assumption and accusation that they know the thoughts and Will of God? This is sad. I believe that as I stated earlier that it is unfair for ROAC to be attacked as a whole because one bishop has errant views and he refuses to act in accordance with the Synod and its decisions.

But it is precisely this audacity that many old calendarists seem to have in pronouncing "world Orthodoxy" graceless.  Yet, they have no problem with this, even if it implies that "they know the thoughts and Will of God".  

Quote
I, even if I were not in ROAC would still see Nikolai's ordination as valid just as I see anyone else's ordination as valid because I do not have the right to judge the soul of another man or his vocation unless he or the man that ordained him is in error or schism.

I am guessing the people I referenced above would probably say something like "World Orthodoxy is clearly in error and schism".  Why the surprise, then, when people in those jurisdictions regard those you are in communion with as "in error and schism"?  Shouldn't that be expected?
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« Reply #28 on: July 05, 2004, 01:49:45 PM »

...begin color commentary...

While I can understand the rational of those who believe ROAC is a schism, and would therefore say they lack the power to truly create an "Orthodox Priesthood" capable of communicating the grace of the sacraments (it is an Orthodox way of thinking)... I can only understand such reasoning in so far as it would insist the exact same thing is true of Roman Catholics, Non-Chalcedonians, etc.

...end of color commentary...
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« Reply #29 on: July 05, 2004, 02:39:29 PM »

Quote
I can only understand such reasoning in so far as it would insist the exact same thing [invalid mysteries] is true of Roman Catholics, Non-Chalcedonians, etc.

And that is what the Orthodox Churc believes!

Quote
I am guessing the people I referenced above would probably say something like "World Orthodoxy is clearly in error and schism".  Why the surprise, then, when people in those jurisdictions regard those you are in communion with as "in error and schism"?  Shouldn't that be expected?  

Phil brings up a good point in that those who slap the label graceless heretic so readily on any "World" Orthodox Church suddenly become very sensitive when the same is said to them.  If I believe the Orthodox church is gracefilled, why would I believe that a group that has cut themselves off from via schism is also gracefilled?
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« Reply #30 on: July 05, 2004, 03:33:05 PM »

It could be one's perspective, Nektarios.  It is a very Human thing to believe that what a person believes/likes/holds is right.

 If a person/group has decided that they are holding to the "right" way or the "True" practice, then in effect *they* haven't changed. While the "world"/others are the ones who have changed/weakened and so forth.  Thus by their lights Group A has not 'cut themselves off" but it is the larger Group B that has done so.  The change by the other group causes their "grace" to leave.

I'm not just speculating here.  That seems to be the explanation for why the maybe-former-Archbishop Gregory kept changing jurisdictions.  He was always right and holding the Truth, while the groups changed, thus he was forced to leave them.

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« Reply #31 on: July 05, 2004, 04:57:06 PM »

Nektarios,

Quote
And that is what the Orthodox Churc believes!

Oh, I agree.  But that is not what many Orthodox laymen, academics, and sadly even clergy and heirarchs seem to believe.

My underlying problem is with the fratricidal impulses of most of the "ecumenists" I've encountered.  They're very quick to deny the "validity" of Old Calendarist mysteries, yet quite speedy to provide their supposedly "nuanced" and "more enlightened" positive opinions of the mysteries of older, far more alien schisms (Catholicism and "Non-Chalcedonians" in particular.)  Irregardless of what one thinks of people like ROAC, I've always found such duplicity disheartening.

Personally, I think there is a lot of confusion as to why ROAC came into existance, particularly within it's American flock itself.  Too many people confuse ROAC's basic reason for coming into existance in the first place, with the reasons for Bp. Gregory of Colorado had for leaving ROCOR.  In the case of ROAC proper, it was due to the perceived anti-canonical interferance of certain ROCOR heirarchs within the juristiction of the FROC (Free Russian Orthodox Church - former name for those ROCOR diocese' inside of Russia), combined with a later perception that they were being slowly abandoned/pushed out the door in order to accomodate a different method of restoring relations with the Russian people (where as previously it's clear ROCOR was intent on establishing a indisputably Orthodox, uncomprimised heirarchy in Russia in the form of FROC, it was becoming clear that this was being abandoned in favour of seeking relations with the MP itself...irregardless of one's position, this does seem a bit odd.)  Concerns over relations with the TOC resistor/old-calendarists under Metropolitan Cyprian were more or less an after thought.

OTOH, Bp.Gregory's reasons for leaving ROCOR seem to have been distinctly over the "Cyprian" merger - which explains why he went to the GOC under Archbishop Chrysostmos II (a group which had taken for granted they were in communion with ROCOR since the 70's, up until the "Cyprian" union), since the Chrysostmos II folks regarded Metropolitan Cyprian as a deposed clergyman, and do not agree with his "position of resistance" (arguing it's a form of "crypto-ecumenism".)

All in all it's a messy situation - but not one that leaves me feeling comfortable enough that I want to start throwing around invectives like "graceless", particularly when the parties involved theoretically do not differ in terms of their faith.  It remains to be seen how permanent any of this is, and for my money, whether or not the canonical complaints of the original ROAC group in Russia proper were justified.

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« Reply #32 on: July 05, 2004, 05:05:51 PM »

Thank you my friends!

This is precisely why I came here. Much of what was said... much if not all of the allegiance of the ROAC in America is/was FOR Gregory.  Even at times when poeple would ask questions they were given short snips of answers to just satisfy them and send them away...

With this  said let me fix my point. Because Gregeoy, as a Bishop, was supposed to be a shepherd of souls and give advic ewhere needed. Because of this and the office which he held it was supposed that when we asked his advice he would be in line wit hthe Synod of Bishops. this however was not the case and sadly we only learned of this a little (if not a lot) late in the game.

As to the stae,emts in the previous posts, let me start by saying this: The ROAC America site was launched, is administrated and added to anddeleted of by Father George and Bishop Gregry. This is why the Metropolitan and Gregory's comments seem so blindingly different. What is up on the ROAC America site as to who has grace and who doesn', who is Orthodox and who is not, all of this is the words and desires of Bp. Gregory. We who were under him were duped into thinking that since he was under oath ot follow them he would believe him.

There has been no definitive statements as to grace, the alendar, anything of that nature. What was asserted previously was the words of Bp. Gregory given to us as the ROAC authority.

This sadly was not the tuth.

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« Reply #33 on: July 05, 2004, 06:15:46 PM »

Ebor,

It is indeed a odd way of thinking though.... I can understand the ROAC POV of the "official" Orthodox churches are corrupt etc. and are graceless, even if I disagree with that POV.  For claiming to not want anything to do with World Orthodoxy the ROAC types sure want us to affirm their legitimacy!  And as for me, I don't care if someone calls me a graceless heretic or either of the jurisdictions where I regularly attend church (ROCOR and GOA) - I'm happy where I am and do not need anyone else to affirm that.  And I do remeber from a few months ago many of the ROACites were thundering anathemas that everyone else was graceless and now someone makes one post here saying the same about them and they get upset....

Juvenaly,

There is a lot I don't understand about your arguments...

Perhaps I am wrong with my understanding of the situation, but I thought Metr. Valentine seperated from the ROCOR when they entered into communion Metr. Cyprian.  The reason the TOC under Metr. Cyprian was no acceptable to Metr. Valentine was that they beleived the state churches still had grace - it's not even a question to them.  So if this is correct how could ROAC have anything other than an ecclesiology that denies the new calendarists have grace?
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« Reply #34 on: July 05, 2004, 06:28:12 PM »


As to the statememts in the previous posts, let me start by saying this: The ROAC America site was launched, is administrated and added to and deleted of by Father George and Bishop Gregory.

Now, I especially remember that someone else put up that website for them. In fact, I think someone looking around on-line could quite quickly provide the name of that person-- someone who changed the site slightly after my comments about its navigation.

When it comes to that, the "We were deceved innocents!" defense isn't going to jibe with continued discourse. If you are that innocent, then what you should have done what I told you to do about a year ago-- well, maybe 9 months ago, but anyway: find yourself an Orthodox priest. Not a relatively newbie convert (though a converted Episcopal priest might do in a pinch), but someone steeped in orthodoxy most of his life. Do what he tells you-- and I wouldn't be surprised if the first thing he tells you is to get off the internet! But right now, you don't know what to know.
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« Reply #35 on: July 05, 2004, 06:46:09 PM »

Keble, yes I remember you saying this to me and at this time I say to you the last tihng I said to you on this topic, where do you suggest i go to find someone "steeped in Orthodoxy?" Can you suggest the Orthodox priest you go to?

Also, the site was made by someone but the ownership and administration of the site is done by Dormition Skete if you would like me to prove this I can get the WhoIs record for the site and you will see that all of the contact info, billing info, technical info is done by the Skete. When the site was redesigned it was done by someone who was in association wit hthem and he no longer has control over anything at that site... as he did in the first lace they wouldnt even give him FTP proveliges as he had to send all updates to Father George.

A;l I said was that to my knowledge there was no offivcial documents (Ukases or the like) to state what the SOBOR of Bishops of the ROAC feels as to the validity of the Mysteries or the reception of grace of other jurisdictions. I do not know of this situation with the Cyprians, but the Metropolitan has said that at this time there is no official statements on any of the jurisdictions.  
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« Reply #36 on: July 05, 2004, 07:56:13 PM »

Nektarios,

M Valentine reentered into communion with ROCOR after the Cyprian union for about 2-3 months in 1995, so that obviously was not his main concern.

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« Reply #37 on: July 05, 2004, 08:03:09 PM »

Ebor,

It is indeed a odd way of thinking though....


Odd it may seem to you, Nektarios, but I've seen the pattern many times in my 48 years in many different situations.  People like to be right and believe that they/their party/group/set of ideas is the Only True Way. And they like to have their beliefs/desires/opinions supported by others. However, if they're not, then they're still right as any who oppose or disagree must, by definition, be wrong.  Human psychology is a wondrous thing.  

Ebor
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« Reply #38 on: July 08, 2004, 10:19:08 AM »

Keble, yes I remember you saying this to me and at this time I say to you the last tihng I said to you on this topic, where do you suggest i go to find someone "steeped in Orthodoxy?"

At a local Colorado EO parish of any jurisdiction?

Juvenaly, I read the blog you had last Autumn that you have since deleted.  It was iirc September that you wrote of finding OC.net and being excited about learning about EO.  By October you were in communication with then Bishop Gregory and going to ROAC.  You judged that "World Orthodoxy" was not the way to go.  But you did not truely experience it.  

Please forgive me if this is blunt, you went from an inquirer to being drawn to a cult of personality in a very short time.  You have not lived for a year with an ordinary parish.  You were convinced that the jurisdictions commonly found like GOA, OCA, AOA and ROCOR were all not right.    Now, horrible and unfortunate things have happened and and the priest, his family and the parish are uprooted and in need of a home.  (I find that deed shameful, in particular, to make a family of 7 seaching in haste for a place to live.)

I hope that you use this to learn and not be drawn again into something just because of a charismatic personality.  

I'm sorry that you and the other people have had to experience this.  But I'm not surprised by the events. It's happened all to often in the past: a strong personality who is convinced of his/her Rightness who will not submitting to any authority and turns on followers who do not toe the line.  It is grevious.

Ebor
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« Reply #39 on: July 08, 2004, 06:01:20 PM »

Quote
At a local Colorado EO parish of any jurisdiction?

So what you are saying is it is ok for me to switch jurusdictions when it suits me but for ssomeone like the Metropolitan he is not obliged to do the same? No thank you. I am a baptized member of the ROAC. I will stay with my church.

Quote
Juvenaly, I read the blog you had last Autumn that you have since deleted.

Actually, it still exists. Its just a matter of finding it.

Quote
It was iirc September that you wrote of finding OC.net and being excited about learning about EO. By October you were in communication with then Bishop Gregory and going to ROAC.

Yes and as you can see, am still a member of this board as well. Unlike those who you judge in my situation I never deleted myself and made it publi that this board was in heresy or schism, or that the people on this board were without grace.

Isn't that odd when it is just assumed that all ROAC-ites are all the same. It might do you good to actually get to know the mindset of ROAC before you throw stones. Or at least get out of your own glass house.

Quote
You judged that "World Orthodoxy" was not the way to go. But you did not truely experience it.

See it is comments like this... Can you prove this? Can you tell me that I did not go to the GOA, the Antiochians, the ROCOR, all of the parishes that wwere in Tucsin Arizona where I was at the time. If you had truly read the blog as you say you did you would have seen that the first day I wrote the blog it was about the GOA, then the Antiochians, then about the ROCOR. You see, it seems as if "selective memory" for some is a gift when they have a point to settle.

Quote
lease forgive me if this is blunt, you went from an inquirer to being drawn to a cult of personality in a very short time. You have not lived for a year with an ordinary parish. You were convinced that the jurisdictions commonly found like GOA, OCA, AOA and ROCOR were all not right.

The cult of personality you speak of is Bishop Gregory. Sadlky he is retired and no longer holds the office of a bishop. He is not holding authority because of his own actions. i am not following him. I am following the Synod of the ROAC.

No, I have not lived in a parish setting for a yr because I have only been in Colorado 6 months, give me a break!

An d I am still not convinced they are "right" FOR ME. You see deletion of simple words can be the key to understanding one's mindset. I have friends in ROCOR and that suits them, I have friends in all of these jurisdictions, but I am not out to attain their salvation, I must work out my own in fear and trembling. And so the decisions I make are for the attainment of my own salvation. I think if we all strove for that these petty arguments would not occur. We would be so busy begging God to not kill us now that we would not have time to slander and accuse. But maybe thats just me...

Quote
I'm sorry that you and the other people have had to experience this. But I'm not surprised by the events. It's happened all to often in the past: a strong personality who is convinced of his/her Rightness who will not submitting to any authority and turns on followers who do not toe the line. It is grevious.

Yes, but these are the strugglesof the Othodox lifestyle for those of us who choose to accept them and become a part of Orthodoxy and not just look to it from the outside and accuse.

Yes, and the bottom lie is that Gregory is leaving/has left, this has yet to be seen, the Synod not the other wat around. The Synod is still the Synod they still govern the church and they are still intact and ruling.

Those who will not follow the Synod will have to judge for themselves wether they do the right thing.

"As for meand my hgouse, we will serve the Lord."


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« Reply #40 on: July 08, 2004, 07:05:39 PM »

Isn't that odd when it is just assumed that all ROAC-ites are all the same. It might do you good to actually get to know the mindset of ROAC before you throw stones. Or at least get out of your own glass house.

Dear Juvenaly,

Sorry if this sounds cynical, but since the time ROAC became popular on the internet until the present time, which is a time of confusion (I don't know whether or not you'd agree?) and trial for ROAC's American flock, I've seen two ROAC's.  

One is the kind, cute and cuddly ROAC which doesn't say whether or not other jurisdictions have grace, and just wants to work out its salvation in fear and trembling.  

The other is the ROAC of Gregory, who, like a pseudo-Orthodox Thor, likes to hurl anathemas left and right like thunderbolts.

I've seen members of ROAC follow Gregory's path, and now abandon that path for that of the Synod.  Those who defended Gregory then are abandoning him now.  And they insist that it might do us good to actually get to know the mindset of ROAC before we "throw stones".  How can we know the mindset of ROAC?  So far we've seen two ROAC's.  Which is the mindset of ROAC?  Does ROAC even have a mindset?  Who do I believe?

You suggest people get to know the true ROAC, and, although I don't have a high opinion of your jurisdiction at present, I agree with you (I'm one of the few on this site who actually has first-hand experience with ROAC).  But I think it is important that you (plural) realise that ROAC in America, perhaps through no fault of its own, is in a dreadful situation, and you ought to be patient with those who disagree with you because that disagreement was only enhanced by your former ways.
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« Reply #41 on: July 08, 2004, 10:56:32 PM »

Dear Juvenaly,

I am not trying to attack you.  I am not trying to 'throw stones' at you.  I don't know who else you think I am "judging" in your situation nor am I assuming that they are all the same.  Please do not read any malice or hatred or anger in what I write.  It is not there.  If you read 'accusations' please point them out, in the interests of understanding on both sides.  I am sorry that you seem to read them in what I write.

I have read your present web page "Fast Food" and your present blog "Doing it My Way".  But I don't know where to find your old blog.  Do you care to show it again?

Yes, I recall you wrote of the other jurisdictions.  But how long did you stay with any one parish? It is not a matter of "selective memory".   I do not have an eidetic memory for all that I read.  I would not expect you to remember precisely something you read nearly a year ago.   Please correct me if you indeed stayed with a parish for a while.   You have been EO for 6 months with ROAC.  Is that the longest you have been with an EO parish?

This is a horrible mess.  People are being hurt.  That isn't good.  I am sorry.  That is not a accusation.

Ebor
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« Reply #42 on: July 09, 2004, 06:26:33 AM »

Ebor,

I understand your stance on the whole thing, but again, as you yourself stated, and correclty I might add, there are two different ROAC's. There is the ROAC that is represented b ONE Bishop (if he still holds that title i do not know although I have my suspicions, and then there is the ROAC according to the Synod.

Those of in in Colorado who have seen this first hand are appealing to the senses of the other 11 Bishops and standing with them rather than taking the path of the Gregoryites saying that the Metropolitan is "acting like a pope" and that "he needs to be deposed."

And so in this, yes I see where there is much confusion on the parts of those not directly involved. Yes, this is the longest I have been with an EO parish. And I think in this situation as bad as it is you see that the same personality that baptized me was not, is not, and will never be my one source for Orthodoxy. My spiritual father is guiding me and teaching me. I have contact with other priests within the ROAC all of whom are outside of Colorado, in my opinion this is balanced. I am not sticking to one man, I am standing with the Church. You see there is growth on my part, for those who choose to see it. I bering this point up as I do not talk of my spirityual life with others but I fel that thisis important to show that indeed as you say th etwo parts are very different.

No, some may say that I was not in this jurisdiction or that for very long, but this was a personal decision on my part for many reasons not just because of beliefs.

You may see some weakness in the part of the Synod in saying that they are not willing ot make a final decision on grace. i see this as a strength. They are not taking it upon themselves to pronounce a death sentene upon every priest, every parishoner, every person who make up all of the other Orthodox groups. This is where the thoughts of Gregory differ greatly from that of the Synod.

I do not plan on leaving the Synod. I trust our bishops and I trust our Metropolitan. I trust that this all will work out and justice will be served. Things will be easier in time, but for now we are called ot suffer. This, should come as no surprise though as the life of an Orthodox Christian is to suffer for the sake of the Gospel.

BTW: The old blog is:
http://orthodoxynow.blogspot.com

the new blog is not a blog as I have not posted ot it in a long time. My focus is on more spiritual things like:

http://www.orthodoxynow.com/LXX
and
http://www.orthodoxynow.com/OTLOG
and my jpy right now:
http://www.orthodoxynow.com/OSFYP

This is how i bide my time. Unfortunately my job gets in the way of me getting more done.
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