Author Topic: St. Augustine/Eusebius Quotes  (Read 1351 times)

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Offline Andrew Crook

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St. Augustine/Eusebius Quotes
« on: July 23, 2011, 04:08:21 PM »
Hi everyone,

Can anyone tell me where to find these quotes, and given the context -- what they were talking about or referring to?
  • "We never cease to look towards India, where many things are proposed to our admiration." -- St. Augustine of Hippo
  • "This, in our day, is the Christian religion, not as having been unknown in former times, but as having recently received that name."  -- St. Augustine of Hippo
  • "The religion of Jesus Christ is neither new nor strange." -- Eusebius of Caesarea

Also, when St. Augustine was referring to India -- he wasn't referring to Hindu India was he?
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Offline Frederic

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Re: St. Augustine/Eusebius Quotes
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2012, 11:10:20 PM »
  • "The religion of Jesus Christ is neither new nor strange." -- Eusebius of Caesarea

It is the title of Ecclesiastical History, book I, chapter IV.

http://m.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf201.iii.vi.iv.html

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Offline Cyrillic

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Re: St. Augustine/Eusebius Quotes
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2012, 09:52:33 AM »
The first one by St. Augustine is most certainly spurious. I doubt that anyone in the Roman world would know much about what was going on in India.
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Offline DavidH

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Re: St. Augustine/Eusebius Quotes
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2012, 12:01:59 PM »
The first one by St. Augustine is most certainly spurious. I doubt that anyone in the Roman world would know much about what was going on in India.

I'm not so sure- the West knew about India at least from the time of Alexander the Great's conquests. Also, several Fathers in ante-Nicene times also knew about "Brahmanism" (e.g. Clement of Alexandria, Bardesanes, and St. Hippolytus).

I don't know whether this quote by Bl. Augustine is spurious or not but he does refer to India numerous times in the City of God and other writings. When talking about their religion he usually refers to the "dark solitudes of India" and is critical of their philosophy. So if the quote is genuine it certainly does not mean he accepted Hinduism as true, or Christianity as in any way derived from it. If anything, he would probably be admiring whatever parallels it has to Christianity as a partial understanding of Truth which prepares the Hindus to receive the Gospel more easily because it is not a totally foreign concept to them. This is how the Fathers generally approached other religions.

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: St. Augustine/Eusebius Quotes
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2012, 12:17:48 PM »
Hi everyone,

Can anyone tell me where to find these quotes, and given the context -- what they were talking about or referring to?
  • "We never cease to look towards India, where many things are proposed to our admiration." -- St. Augustine of Hippo
  • "This, in our day, is the Christian religion, not as having been unknown in former times, but as having recently received that name."  -- St. Augustine of Hippo
  • "The religion of Jesus Christ is neither new nor strange." -- Eusebius of Caesarea

Also, when St. Augustine was referring to India -- he wasn't referring to Hindu India was he?

These quotes are often used by the christ myth theory conspiracy theorists.

Here is a response to the Eusebius quote:

http://labarum.net/2012/07/30/quotemined-sources-eusebius-on-christianity-being-neither-new-nor-strange/

See the entire "questionable sources" series here:

http://labarum.net/category/anti-christian-claims/questionable-citations/

The India quote only appears on conspiracy blogs and 1800's social darwinist pseudohistory when I google it.

In any case, if Augustine were referring to India in an authentic quote, he would probably be referring to the accounts reproduced in Latin works, like Justin the Historian, of Macedonian contact (Megasthenes) with the Mauryan Empire in India, and its predecessors.

I don't know what that would have to do with a CMT proof, though.

So, come clean, where did you get these quotes?  ;)
« Last Edit: October 27, 2012, 12:24:37 PM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Orthonorm
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Offline Jetavan

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Re: St. Augustine/Eusebius Quotes
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2012, 12:41:55 PM »
The first one by St. Augustine is most certainly spurious. I doubt that anyone in the Roman world would know much about what was going on in India.

I'm not so sure- the West knew about India at least from the time of Alexander the Great's conquests. Also, several Fathers in ante-Nicene times also knew about "Brahmanism" (e.g. Clement of Alexandria, Bardesanes, and St. Hippolytus).

I don't know whether this quote by Bl. Augustine is spurious or not but he does refer to India numerous times in the City of God and other writings. When talking about their religion he usually refers to the "dark solitudes of India" and is critical of their philosophy. So if the quote is genuine it certainly does not mean he accepted Hinduism as true, or Christianity as in any way derived from it. If anything, he would probably be admiring whatever parallels it has to Christianity as a partial understanding of Truth which prepares the Hindus to receive the Gospel more easily because it is not a totally foreign concept to them. This is how the Fathers generally approached other religions.
Don't forget St. Jerome:

“To come to the Gymnosophists of India, the opinion is authoritatively handed down that Budda [sic], the founder of their religion, had his birth through the side of a virgin.” (Paragraph 42 of http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf206.vi.vi.I.html )

The idea that Buddha was born of a virgin is part of non-canonical Buddhist literature; the Pali texts don't explicitly state that she was a virgin.
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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: St. Augustine/Eusebius Quotes
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2012, 01:13:03 PM »
Is that a variation of the "conceived after a dream" legend?

Also, what literature are we talking about?
« Last Edit: October 27, 2012, 01:13:28 PM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

Πλούσιοι επτώχευσαν και επείνασαν
Οιδε εκζητούντες τον Κύριον
Ουκ ελαττωθήσονται παντός αγαθού

Offline Jetavan

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Re: St. Augustine/Eusebius Quotes
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2012, 02:16:13 PM »
Is that a variation of the "conceived after a dream" legend?
Yes.

Quote
Also, what literature are we talking about?
Andre Herold's The Life of the Buddha has the story of Queen Maya taking a vow of brahmacharya (abstaining from sex). The original story is found in the Lalitavistara, a non-canonical text.
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.

Offline JamesRottnek

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Re: St. Augustine/Eusebius Quotes
« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2012, 06:58:26 PM »
The first one by St. Augustine is most certainly spurious. I doubt that anyone in the Roman world would know much about what was going on in India.

I'm not so sure- the West knew about India at least from the time of Alexander the Great's conquests. Also, several Fathers in ante-Nicene times also knew about "Brahmanism" (e.g. Clement of Alexandria, Bardesanes, and St. Hippolytus).

I don't know whether this quote by Bl. Augustine is spurious or not but he does refer to India numerous times in the City of God and other writings. When talking about their religion he usually refers to the "dark solitudes of India" and is critical of their philosophy. So if the quote is genuine it certainly does not mean he accepted Hinduism as true, or Christianity as in any way derived from it. If anything, he would probably be admiring whatever parallels it has to Christianity as a partial understanding of Truth which prepares the Hindus to receive the Gospel more easily because it is not a totally foreign concept to them. This is how the Fathers generally approached other religions.

Or, if it's true, St. Augustine may well have been commenting on Indian Christians.
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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: St. Augustine/Eusebius Quotes
« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2012, 11:07:06 AM »
has the story of Queen Maya taking a vow of brahmacharya (abstaining from sex).

Before or after she had already been married and had sex?
Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

Πλούσιοι επτώχευσαν και επείνασαν
Οιδε εκζητούντες τον Κύριον
Ουκ ελαττωθήσονται παντός αγαθού

Offline Jetavan

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Re: St. Augustine/Eusebius Quotes
« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2012, 01:24:26 PM »
has the story of Queen Maya taking a vow of brahmacharya (abstaining from sex).

Before or after she had already been married and had sex?
The story states that they were already married, but it doesn't say if the Queen had already had sex beforehand.
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: St. Augustine/Eusebius Quotes
« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2012, 12:00:59 AM »
In a temple in Henan province I saw a very expensive sponsored depiction of the life of the buddha, showing the white elephant entering her side.

It was done in multiple perspectives using semi-precious stones, recent too. Very interesting how the "dream bubble" was incorporated into an ostensibly ancient motif.  ;)
« Last Edit: October 29, 2012, 12:21:04 AM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

Πλούσιοι επτώχευσαν και επείνασαν
Οιδε εκζητούντες τον Κύριον
Ουκ ελαττωθήσονται παντός αγαθού