Author Topic: Games for Hades  (Read 333 times)

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Offline William T

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Games for Hades
« on: November 07, 2016, 09:15:27 PM »
I have it in my head that there was one festival / games held in honor of Hades once ever 100 years.  None of the books I have on hand say this, nor can I find out any info online.  Does anyone know what I'm talking about?  Is my brain lying to me?
“Behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, Who is Christ the Lord."

"And The Word became flesh and tabernacled among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth"

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Games for Hades
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2016, 10:42:33 PM »
I have it in my head that there was one festival / games held in honor of Hades once ever 100 years.  None of the books I have on hand say this, nor can I find out any info online.  Does anyone know what I'm talking about?  Is my brain lying to me?

I'm sure there were many, as Hades was an important divinity. The observance would be regional, as in Indo-European life a settlement and a region and even a household would have a single aspect of deity to which the inhabitants would dedicate themselves. Of course many chose the same, such as Apollo for regions and Hecate for homes. So in short you might have some digging to do, but the 100 years sounds like a good differentiator.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are

Offline William T

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Re: Games for Hades
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2016, 10:57:05 PM »
I have it in my head that there was one festival / games held in honor of Hades once ever 100 years.  None of the books I have on hand say this, nor can I find out any info online.  Does anyone know what I'm talking about?  Is my brain lying to me?

I'm sure there were many, as Hades was an important divinity. The observance would be regional, as in Indo-European life a settlement and a region and even a household would have a single aspect of deity to which the inhabitants would dedicate themselves. Of course many chose the same, such as Apollo for regions and Hecate for homes. So in short you might have some digging to do, but the 100 years sounds like a good differentiator.

No there weren't, that's how this came up.  At least that's the main theory I am aware of. Someone asked me if Hades was honored in anyway like the other gods, and all I could think of was maybe some catacomb somewhere  and this game I have in my mind that may not exist.  The Greeks didn't build temples or anything like that to him, there was only one potential affair he had that got stymied before it could take off, and he had no children walking around the earth like his brothers.  The Greeks would just do some kind of quick prayer to the ground for him I think. I'm not sure if the Romans were different with Dis.  But the honoring and worship of Hades was different and had a different character from the other major gods.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2016, 10:59:59 PM by William T »
“Behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, Who is Christ the Lord."

"And The Word became flesh and tabernacled among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth"

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Games for Hades
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2016, 11:34:17 PM »
I have it in my head that there was one festival / games held in honor of Hades once ever 100 years.  None of the books I have on hand say this, nor can I find out any info online.  Does anyone know what I'm talking about?  Is my brain lying to me?

I'm sure there were many, as Hades was an important divinity. The observance would be regional, as in Indo-European life a settlement and a region and even a household would have a single aspect of deity to which the inhabitants would dedicate themselves. Of course many chose the same, such as Apollo for regions and Hecate for homes. So in short you might have some digging to do, but the 100 years sounds like a good differentiator.

No there weren't, that's how this came up.  At least that's the main theory I am aware of. Someone asked me if Hades was honored in anyway like the other gods, and all I could think of was maybe some catacomb somewhere  and this game I have in my mind that may not exist.  The Greeks didn't build temples or anything like that to him, there was only one potential affair he had that got stymied before it could take off, and he had no children walking around the earth like his brothers.  The Greeks would just do some kind of quick prayer to the ground for him I think. I'm not sure if the Romans were different with Dis.  But the honoring and worship of Hades was different and had a different character from the other major gods.

You are humorously positive, here. Hades was almost as important as Zeus in the theogony. In some regions he was even conflated with Apollo, the savior.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Games for Hades
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2016, 11:37:38 PM »
From my recollections of studying Greek mythology, I think William T's info was pretty spot on. Hades was avoided as no benefit came from worshiping him.
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Re: Games for Hades
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2016, 11:38:28 PM »
In some regions he was even conflated with Apollo, the savior.
Wow. Do you have more info on it?
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Offline William T

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Re: Games for Hades
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2016, 11:48:39 PM »
I have it in my head that there was one festival / games held in honor of Hades once ever 100 years.  None of the books I have on hand say this, nor can I find out any info online.  Does anyone know what I'm talking about?  Is my brain lying to me?

I'm sure there were many, as Hades was an important divinity. The observance would be regional, as in Indo-European life a settlement and a region and even a household would have a single aspect of deity to which the inhabitants would dedicate themselves. Of course many chose the same, such as Apollo for regions and Hecate for homes. So in short you might have some digging to do, but the 100 years sounds like a good differentiator.

No there weren't, that's how this came up.  At least that's the main theory I am aware of. Someone asked me if Hades was honored in anyway like the other gods, and all I could think of was maybe some catacomb somewhere  and this game I have in my mind that may not exist.  The Greeks didn't build temples or anything like that to him, there was only one potential affair he had that got stymied before it could take off, and he had no children walking around the earth like his brothers.  The Greeks would just do some kind of quick prayer to the ground for him I think. I'm not sure if the Romans were different with Dis.  But the honoring and worship of Hades was different and had a different character from the other major gods.

You are humorously positive, here. Hades was almost as important as Zeus in the theogony. In some regions he was even conflated with Apollo, the savior.

I get he is one of the three major gods, but that isn't the question.  This might be why some people are surprised by the   lack of cities, worship, festivals, etc dedicated to him: for example, Poseidon was part of the Panhellenic game cycle, Hades was not.  I'm sure this has more to do with being god of the underworld, then his importance in the Greek pantheon.

I wasn't aware of his association with Apollo, do you have a source?  Is this associated with those mystery cults that popped up in the Roman Empire?  If so that isn't really what I'm interested in when I think of this kind of thing.  I think I remember some remark by a Greek poet making a remark how he was the same as Dionysus, but that's all I can think of.  I remember Apollo got associated often with Hyperion / Helios.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2016, 11:59:49 PM by William T »
“Behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, Who is Christ the Lord."

"And The Word became flesh and tabernacled among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth"

Offline William T

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Re: Games for Hades
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2016, 12:00:49 AM »
From my recollections of studying Greek mythology, I think William T's info was pretty spot on. Hades was avoided as no benefit came from worshiping him.

Maybe there was a goth scene among the kids, those kids benefit from dark fashions.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2016, 12:19:33 AM by William T »
“Behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, Who is Christ the Lord."

"And The Word became flesh and tabernacled among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth"

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Games for Hades
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2016, 12:27:21 AM »
From my recollections of studying Greek mythology, I think William T's info was pretty spot on. Hades was avoided as no benefit came from worshiping him.

Some Greeks felt this way.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Games for Hades
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2016, 12:37:52 AM »
I have it in my head that there was one festival / games held in honor of Hades once ever 100 years.  None of the books I have on hand say this, nor can I find out any info online.  Does anyone know what I'm talking about?  Is my brain lying to me?

I'm sure there were many, as Hades was an important divinity. The observance would be regional, as in Indo-European life a settlement and a region and even a household would have a single aspect of deity to which the inhabitants would dedicate themselves. Of course many chose the same, such as Apollo for regions and Hecate for homes. So in short you might have some digging to do, but the 100 years sounds like a good differentiator.

No there weren't, that's how this came up.  At least that's the main theory I am aware of. Someone asked me if Hades was honored in anyway like the other gods, and all I could think of was maybe some catacomb somewhere  and this game I have in my mind that may not exist.  The Greeks didn't build temples or anything like that to him, there was only one potential affair he had that got stymied before it could take off, and he had no children walking around the earth like his brothers.  The Greeks would just do some kind of quick prayer to the ground for him I think. I'm not sure if the Romans were different with Dis.  But the honoring and worship of Hades was different and had a different character from the other major gods.

You are humorously positive, here. Hades was almost as important as Zeus in the theogony. In some regions he was even conflated with Apollo, the savior.

I get he is one of the three major gods, but that isn't the question.  This might be why some people are surprised by the   lack of cities, worship, festivals, etc dedicated to him: for example, Poseidon was part of the Panhellenic game cycle, Hades was not.  I'm sure this has more to do with being god of the underworld, then his importance in the Greek pantheon.

I wasn't aware of his association with Apollo, do you have a source?  Is this associated with those mystery cults that popped up in the Roman Empire?  If so that isn't really what I'm interested in when I think of this kind of thing.  I think I remember some remark by a Greek poet making a remark how he was the same as Dionysus, but that's all I can think of.  I remember Apollo got associated often with Hyperion / Helios.

You're thinking too narrowly. Have you never heard of Zeus Cthonios? There never was a monolithic Greek religion. Even the three high gods were thought by some to be female, for example. The best modern equivalent would be Hinduism. The religion is what the locale has said it is.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are

Offline William T

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Re: Games for Hades
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2016, 12:39:59 AM »
Found it:

http://hadesandtheafterlife.weebly.com/respecting-hades.html

The Secular Games.

It looks like I was wrong about a catacomb, it was a temple that opened once a year in Elis. 

Pausanias, a Greek traveller and geographer of the 2nd century AD, most famous for his book ‘Description of Greece’, a lengthy work that describes ancient Greece from firsthand observations, comment on the temples and people in Elis, "The sacred enclosure of Hades and its temple [in Elis] are opened once every year, but not even on this occasion is anybody permitted to enter except the priest. The Eleans worship Hades; they are the only men we know of to do so.”
“Behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, Who is Christ the Lord."

"And The Word became flesh and tabernacled among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth"

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Games for Hades
« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2016, 12:43:27 AM »
In some regions he was even conflated with Apollo, the savior.
Wow. Do you have more info on it?

I was stretching. He has no such thegonical association anywhere I've heard of. However, the Greek religion once stretched from India to Ireland -- and in the Middle East, where Adonis was popular and could be associated with the more-widely popular Apollo, Adonis's etymological root in Hades would sometimes cause some conflation.

I am not asserting anything in this thread by the way -- merely trying to serve a gentle reminder to those who seem very willing to assert things.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are

Offline William T

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Re: Games for Hades
« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2016, 12:45:09 AM »
I have it in my head that there was one festival / games held in honor of Hades once ever 100 years.  None of the books I have on hand say this, nor can I find out any info online.  Does anyone know what I'm talking about?  Is my brain lying to me?

I'm sure there were many, as Hades was an important divinity. The observance would be regional, as in Indo-European life a settlement and a region and even a household would have a single aspect of deity to which the inhabitants would dedicate themselves. Of course many chose the same, such as Apollo for regions and Hecate for homes. So in short you might have some digging to do, but the 100 years sounds like a good differentiator.

No there weren't, that's how this came up.  At least that's the main theory I am aware of. Someone asked me if Hades was honored in anyway like the other gods, and all I could think of was maybe some catacomb somewhere  and this game I have in my mind that may not exist.  The Greeks didn't build temples or anything like that to him, there was only one potential affair he had that got stymied before it could take off, and he had no children walking around the earth like his brothers.  The Greeks would just do some kind of quick prayer to the ground for him I think. I'm not sure if the Romans were different with Dis.  But the honoring and worship of Hades was different and had a different character from the other major gods.

You are humorously positive, here. Hades was almost as important as Zeus in the theogony. In some regions he was even conflated with Apollo, the savior.

I get he is one of the three major gods, but that isn't the question.  This might be why some people are surprised by the   lack of cities, worship, festivals, etc dedicated to him: for example, Poseidon was part of the Panhellenic game cycle, Hades was not.  I'm sure this has more to do with being god of the underworld, then his importance in the Greek pantheon.

I wasn't aware of his association with Apollo, do you have a source?  Is this associated with those mystery cults that popped up in the Roman Empire?  If so that isn't really what I'm interested in when I think of this kind of thing.  I think I remember some remark by a Greek poet making a remark how he was the same as Dionysus, but that's all I can think of.  I remember Apollo got associated often with Hyperion / Helios.

You're thinking too narrowly. Have you never heard of Zeus Cthonios? There never was a monolithic Greek religion. Even the three high gods were thought by some to be female, for example. The best modern equivalent would be Hinduism. The religion is what the locale has said it is.

I am thinking narrowly, I'm trying to focus on one question. I am aware there wasn't a monolithic Greek religion, but that need not be brought up for this thread. I am also aware I don't have a PHD in Greek Myth, I hope I don't come off trying to sound authoritative on this, as I'm not nor am I interested in any technical conversation.

I don't see why you keep trying to go meta.  I am however biting on the info you throw out I've never heard of like Apollo getting associated with Hades.  I am trying to see if I got it mixed up with anything, or if it rings a bell somewhere in the recesses of my mind.  Either way, that's side info to my OP.  I found what I was looking for online.

Also, I think what you're using for Zeus is an epithet and title.  It's not like associating Helios/Hyperion with Apollo, where Helios ends up getting merged or confused at times with Apollo.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2016, 12:55:19 AM by William T »
“Behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, Who is Christ the Lord."

"And The Word became flesh and tabernacled among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth"

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Games for Hades
« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2016, 12:52:24 AM »
Found it:

http://hadesandtheafterlife.weebly.com/respecting-hades.html

The Secular Games.

It looks like I was wrong about a catacomb, it was a temple that opened once a year in Elis. 

Pausanias, a Greek traveller and geographer of the 2nd century AD, most famous for his book ‘Description of Greece’, a lengthy work that describes ancient Greece from firsthand observations, comment on the temples and people in Elis, "The sacred enclosure of Hades and its temple [in Elis] are opened once every year, but not even on this occasion is anybody permitted to enter except the priest. The Eleans worship Hades; they are the only men we know of to do so.”

Beware that he may be speaking of worship in a temple sense. Even granting him limited knowledge, he still couldn't be ignorant that Hades was very widely worshipped in funerals and wherever the farflung Demeter-centered mysteries were. Altho other antique historians could have corrected him even on the temple subject, as many altars were jointly dedicated to Hades and some other god (perhaps in the spirit that elevates Siva with Brahma), even in Attica.

Speaking of the mysteries, I am mystified by your desire to dismiss them, as they were not only extremely popular but represent the profoundest elements we know of in Greek religion. It is no accident that St. Paul would import "mysterion" into the Children descriptive terms.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Games for Hades
« Reply #14 on: November 08, 2016, 12:54:28 AM »
I know you were asking about a particular practice and I admitted that early on. My subsequent pricking was in response to the below, a very positive and dismissive post in my opinion.

I have it in my head that there was one festival / games held in honor of Hades once ever 100 years.  None of the books I have on hand say this, nor can I find out any info online.  Does anyone know what I'm talking about?  Is my brain lying to me?

I'm sure there were many, as Hades was an important divinity. The observance would be regional, as in Indo-European life a settlement and a region and even a household would have a single aspect of deity to which the inhabitants would dedicate themselves. Of course many chose the same, such as Apollo for regions and Hecate for homes. So in short you might have some digging to do, but the 100 years sounds like a good differentiator.

No there weren't, that's how this came up.  At least that's the main theory I am aware of. Someone asked me if Hades was honored in anyway like the other gods, and all I could think of was maybe some catacomb somewhere  and this game I have in my mind that may not exist.  The Greeks didn't build temples or anything like that to him, there was only one potential affair he had that got stymied before it could take off, and he had no children walking around the earth like his brothers.  The Greeks would just do some kind of quick prayer to the ground for him I think. I'm not sure if the Romans were different with Dis.  But the honoring and worship of Hades was different and had a different character from the other major gods.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Games for Hades
« Reply #15 on: November 08, 2016, 12:57:45 AM »
From my recollections of studying Greek mythology, I think William T's info was pretty spot on. Hades was avoided as no benefit came from worshiping him.

Keep in mind that undergrad college courses still usually dwell in the jingoist shadow of early modernity. Very forceful statements used to be asserted by researchers in a great many subjects, often with little specific accuracy and almost always without any nuance at all.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Games for Hades
« Reply #16 on: November 08, 2016, 01:01:05 AM »
I have it in my head that there was one festival / games held in honor of Hades once ever 100 years.  None of the books I have on hand say this, nor can I find out any info online.  Does anyone know what I'm talking about?  Is my brain lying to me?

I'm sure there were many, as Hades was an important divinity. The observance would be regional, as in Indo-European life a settlement and a region and even a household would have a single aspect of deity to which the inhabitants would dedicate themselves. Of course many chose the same, such as Apollo for regions and Hecate for homes. So in short you might have some digging to do, but the 100 years sounds like a good differentiator.

No there weren't, that's how this came up.  At least that's the main theory I am aware of. Someone asked me if Hades was honored in anyway like the other gods, and all I could think of was maybe some catacomb somewhere  and this game I have in my mind that may not exist.  The Greeks didn't build temples or anything like that to him, there was only one potential affair he had that got stymied before it could take off, and he had no children walking around the earth like his brothers.  The Greeks would just do some kind of quick prayer to the ground for him I think. I'm not sure if the Romans were different with Dis.  But the honoring and worship of Hades was different and had a different character from the other major gods.

You are humorously positive, here. Hades was almost as important as Zeus in the theogony. In some regions he was even conflated with Apollo, the savior.

I get he is one of the three major gods, but that isn't the question.  This might be why some people are surprised by the   lack of cities, worship, festivals, etc dedicated to him: for example, Poseidon was part of the Panhellenic game cycle, Hades was not.  I'm sure this has more to do with being god of the underworld, then his importance in the Greek pantheon.

I wasn't aware of his association with Apollo, do you have a source?  Is this associated with those mystery cults that popped up in the Roman Empire?  If so that isn't really what I'm interested in when I think of this kind of thing.  I think I remember some remark by a Greek poet making a remark how he was the same as Dionysus, but that's all I can think of.  I remember Apollo got associated often with Hyperion / Helios.

You're thinking too narrowly. Have you never heard of Zeus Cthonios? There never was a monolithic Greek religion. Even the three high gods were thought by some to be female, for example. The best modern equivalent would be Hinduism. The religion is what the locale has said it is.

I am thinking narrowly, I'm trying to focus on one question. I am aware there wasn't a monolithic Greek religion, but that need not be brought up for this thread. I am also aware I don't have a PHD in Greek Myth, I hope I don't come off trying to sound authoritative on this, as I'm not nor am I interested in any technical conversation.

I don't see why you keep trying to go meta.  I am however biting on the info you throw out I've never heard of like Apollo getting associated with Hades.  I am trying to see if I got it mixed up with anything, or if it rings a bell somewhere in the recesses of my mind.  Either way, that's side info to my OP.  I found what I was looking for online.

Also, I think what you're using for Zeus is an epithet and title.  It's not like associating Helios/Hyperion with Apollo, where Helios ends up getting merged or confused at times with Apollo.

Oops missed the last of this. No, Zeus Cthonios was an epithet for Hades by those who considered Hades really a Zeus, that is, the most true god.
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Offline William T

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Re: Games for Hades
« Reply #17 on: November 08, 2016, 01:46:24 AM »
I have it in my head that there was one festival / games held in honor of Hades once ever 100 years.  None of the books I have on hand say this, nor can I find out any info online.  Does anyone know what I'm talking about?  Is my brain lying to me?

I'm sure there were many, as Hades was an important divinity. The observance would be regional, as in Indo-European life a settlement and a region and even a household would have a single aspect of deity to which the inhabitants would dedicate themselves. Of course many chose the same, such as Apollo for regions and Hecate for homes. So in short you might have some digging to do, but the 100 years sounds like a good differentiator.

No there weren't, that's how this came up.  At least that's the main theory I am aware of. Someone asked me if Hades was honored in anyway like the other gods, and all I could think of was maybe some catacomb somewhere  and this game I have in my mind that may not exist.  The Greeks didn't build temples or anything like that to him, there was only one potential affair he had that got stymied before it could take off, and he had no children walking around the earth like his brothers.  The Greeks would just do some kind of quick prayer to the ground for him I think. I'm not sure if the Romans were different with Dis.  But the honoring and worship of Hades was different and had a different character from the other major gods.

You are humorously positive, here. Hades was almost as important as Zeus in the theogony. In some regions he was even conflated with Apollo, the savior.

I get he is one of the three major gods, but that isn't the question.  This might be why some people are surprised by the   lack of cities, worship, festivals, etc dedicated to him: for example, Poseidon was part of the Panhellenic game cycle, Hades was not.  I'm sure this has more to do with being god of the underworld, then his importance in the Greek pantheon.

I wasn't aware of his association with Apollo, do you have a source?  Is this associated with those mystery cults that popped up in the Roman Empire?  If so that isn't really what I'm interested in when I think of this kind of thing.  I think I remember some remark by a Greek poet making a remark how he was the same as Dionysus, but that's all I can think of.  I remember Apollo got associated often with Hyperion / Helios.

You're thinking too narrowly. Have you never heard of Zeus Cthonios? There never was a monolithic Greek religion. Even the three high gods were thought by some to be female, for example. The best modern equivalent would be Hinduism. The religion is what the locale has said it is.

I am thinking narrowly, I'm trying to focus on one question. I am aware there wasn't a monolithic Greek religion, but that need not be brought up for this thread. I am also aware I don't have a PHD in Greek Myth, I hope I don't come off trying to sound authoritative on this, as I'm not nor am I interested in any technical conversation.

I don't see why you keep trying to go meta.  I am however biting on the info you throw out I've never heard of like Apollo getting associated with Hades.  I am trying to see if I got it mixed up with anything, or if it rings a bell somewhere in the recesses of my mind.  Either way, that's side info to my OP.  I found what I was looking for online.

Also, I think what you're using for Zeus is an epithet and title.  It's not like associating Helios/Hyperion with Apollo, where Helios ends up getting merged or confused at times with Apollo.

Oops missed the last of this. No, Zeus Cthonios was an epithet for Hades by those who considered Hades really a Zeus, that is, the most true god.

So if I were to cite Pausanius again describing a temple to Zeus with various epithets, or a play who used the same name on Hermes would you dismiss those sources? 

Anyway, my question was answered.  I'm really confused by your posts on this thread, so I'm going to stop responding to you here.  If some third party has any questions on any of the responses I took on your posts which to me were "meta", I guess I'll answer since I decided to bite.  If you have something else to say about religion in Greece, I guess start a new topic and state clearly what's on your mind and I'll try and argue or agree with you.  I guess I owe that to you for biting.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2016, 01:49:48 AM by William T »
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Offline William T

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Re: Games for Hades
« Reply #18 on: November 08, 2016, 01:58:35 AM »
Well slap me silly and call me Sally if Wikipedia ain't the guiding light of my mind today:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chthonius


I type in Zeus Chthonus and presto!  The citations are from Pausanias and Aristophanes (for Hermes). Wikipedia knows everything I know, all that work I put in to be able to fuddle about in my brain has been replaced by the net. I guess I can empty my memory and just rely on Wikipedia from here on out, I'm outdated and my memory runs not so good.  The down side: I guess this means from here on out it will seem as if Pokemon is worthy of more time and scrutiny than Mozart, what Hillary Clinton ate for breakfast is of more political importance than the entire career of Theodosius, and some land and language in dungeons & dragons is deserving of more time than the entire span of Hittite culture.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2016, 02:13:20 AM by William T »
“Behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, Who is Christ the Lord."

"And The Word became flesh and tabernacled among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth"

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Games for Hades
« Reply #19 on: November 08, 2016, 03:20:42 AM »
I have it in my head that there was one festival / games held in honor of Hades once ever 100 years.  None of the books I have on hand say this, nor can I find out any info online.  Does anyone know what I'm talking about?  Is my brain lying to me?

I'm sure there were many, as Hades was an important divinity. The observance would be regional, as in Indo-European life a settlement and a region and even a household would have a single aspect of deity to which the inhabitants would dedicate themselves. Of course many chose the same, such as Apollo for regions and Hecate for homes. So in short you might have some digging to do, but the 100 years sounds like a good differentiator.

No there weren't, that's how this came up.  At least that's the main theory I am aware of. Someone asked me if Hades was honored in anyway like the other gods, and all I could think of was maybe some catacomb somewhere  and this game I have in my mind that may not exist.  The Greeks didn't build temples or anything like that to him, there was only one potential affair he had that got stymied before it could take off, and he had no children walking around the earth like his brothers.  The Greeks would just do some kind of quick prayer to the ground for him I think. I'm not sure if the Romans were different with Dis.  But the honoring and worship of Hades was different and had a different character from the other major gods.

You are humorously positive, here. Hades was almost as important as Zeus in the theogony. In some regions he was even conflated with Apollo, the savior.

I get he is one of the three major gods, but that isn't the question.  This might be why some people are surprised by the   lack of cities, worship, festivals, etc dedicated to him: for example, Poseidon was part of the Panhellenic game cycle, Hades was not.  I'm sure this has more to do with being god of the underworld, then his importance in the Greek pantheon.

I wasn't aware of his association with Apollo, do you have a source?  Is this associated with those mystery cults that popped up in the Roman Empire?  If so that isn't really what I'm interested in when I think of this kind of thing.  I think I remember some remark by a Greek poet making a remark how he was the same as Dionysus, but that's all I can think of.  I remember Apollo got associated often with Hyperion / Helios.

You're thinking too narrowly. Have you never heard of Zeus Cthonios? There never was a monolithic Greek religion. Even the three high gods were thought by some to be female, for example. The best modern equivalent would be Hinduism. The religion is what the locale has said it is.

I am thinking narrowly, I'm trying to focus on one question. I am aware there wasn't a monolithic Greek religion, but that need not be brought up for this thread. I am also aware I don't have a PHD in Greek Myth, I hope I don't come off trying to sound authoritative on this, as I'm not nor am I interested in any technical conversation.

I don't see why you keep trying to go meta.  I am however biting on the info you throw out I've never heard of like Apollo getting associated with Hades.  I am trying to see if I got it mixed up with anything, or if it rings a bell somewhere in the recesses of my mind.  Either way, that's side info to my OP.  I found what I was looking for online.

Also, I think what you're using for Zeus is an epithet and title.  It's not like associating Helios/Hyperion with Apollo, where Helios ends up getting merged or confused at times with Apollo.

Oops missed the last of this. No, Zeus Cthonios was an epithet for Hades by those who considered Hades really a Zeus, that is, the most true god.

So if I were to cite Pausanius again describing a temple to Zeus with various epithets, or a play who used the same name on Hermes would you dismiss those sources? 

Anyway, my question was answered.  I'm really confused by your posts on this thread, so I'm going to stop responding to you here.  If some third party has any questions on any of the responses I took on your posts which to me were "meta", I guess I'll answer since I decided to bite.  If you have something else to say about religion in Greece, I guess start a new topic and state clearly what's on your mind and I'll try and argue or agree with you.  I guess I owe that to you for biting.

It's not "dismissing" Pausanios to put him in context. As for your insistence this thread take only the course you envisioned for it -- good luck.
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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Games for Hades
« Reply #20 on: November 08, 2016, 09:08:26 PM »
From my recollections of studying Greek mythology, I think William T's info was pretty spot on. Hades was avoided as no benefit came from worshiping him.

Keep in mind that undergrad college courses still usually dwell in the jingoist shadow of early modernity. Very forceful statements used to be asserted by researchers in a great many subjects, often with little specific accuracy and almost always without any nuance at all.
I take it you have an advanced degree in Greek mythology?
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If one wants to confess a pure doctrine of Orthodoxy, they should be careful not to refer to the earth as a planet, unlike the current Pope as well as Patriarch Kirill and Patriarch Bartholomew, who regularly speak in error when they refer to our planet earth.