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Author Topic: Orthonorm's Dating and Relationship Advice Column  (Read 52174 times) Average Rating: 3
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witega
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« Reply #540 on: April 24, 2012, 03:23:48 PM »

What is wrong with you people? It's like John Galt meets Casanova.

When you screw with an existing relationship, you are screwing with people AND THAT IS WRONG. You don't go in and try to persuade someone who is already in a relationship to start dating you. IT IS PLAIN WRONG.

Stop this childish discussion already.

Oh please.

If the relationship is important enough to you that losing her will actually damage you, then do the right thing and MARRY her. If she says 'no' or 'not yet', then at least you'll know where you stand--which is that she is still keeping her options open, and you've got no reason to complain if she exercises that option. And by not asking her, you are letting her and everyone else know that you are doing the same.

Commitments matter--they are what adults make. Playground rules do not.
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For it were better to suffer everything, rather than divide the Church of God. Even martyrdom for the sake of preventing division would not be less glorious than for refusing to worship idols. - St. Dionysius the Great
witega
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« Reply #541 on: April 24, 2012, 03:26:16 PM »

(I don't know how old/married witega is but he's included)

Not quite as old or married as long as Punch--but if he's very elderly, then I'm definitely in the old category as well.
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« Reply #542 on: April 24, 2012, 03:27:12 PM »

Oh please.

If the relationship is important enough to you that losing her will actually damage you, then do the right thing and MARRY her. If she says 'no' or 'not yet', then at least you'll know where you stand--which is that she is still keeping her options open, and you've got no reason to complain if she exercises that option. And by not asking her, you are letting her and everyone else know that you are doing the same.

Commitments matter--they are what adults make. Playground rules do not.

Amen.
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witega
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« Reply #543 on: April 24, 2012, 03:36:09 PM »

(I don't know how old/married witega is but he's included)

Not quite as old or married as long as Punch--but if he's very elderly, then I'm definitely in the old category as well.

And to supplement that, I'm also speaking as the father of two beautiful, intelligent, talented Cradle Orthodox daughters. So I have a very vested interest in young Orthodox men getting their priorities straight.
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« Reply #544 on: April 24, 2012, 04:14:14 PM »

What is wrong with you people? It's like John Galt meets Casanova.

When you screw with an existing relationship, you are screwing with people AND THAT IS WRONG. You don't go in and try to persuade someone who is already in a relationship to start dating you. IT IS PLAIN WRONG.

Stop this childish discussion already.

Oh please.

If the relationship is important enough to you that losing her will actually damage you, then do the right thing and MARRY her. If she says 'no' or 'not yet', then at least you'll know where you stand--which is that she is still keeping her options open, and you've got no reason to complain if she exercises that option. And by not asking her, you are letting her and everyone else know that you are doing the same.

Commitments matter--they are what adults make. Playground rules do not.

When should this commitment take place?  Within a month?  A few days?  Several hours?  I think that a marriage should be at least partly thought out.  Perhaps I am wrong.  If I had asked the last girl I dated to marry me after two or three dates she probably would have dumped me a whole lot sooner, which might have been a good thing.  The first girl I dated, when it got to the point that I knew that if I married her it would just be setting us up for a real fun divorce I did break up with her.  It took a while and was probably the hardest thing that I've done in my life (and yes, God has been punishing me for it) but I did it.  And now she is with someone who loves her a lot and is probably a better match for her anyway.  All the same, sometimes it takes years for these things to become apparent to both parties.  I don't think jumping into marriage right away in a country with no-fault divorce laws (and a resulting 50% divorce rate) is intelligent at all.  I also believe that when two people are in the process of trying to work this out to see if they like each other, other pricks people should have the common decent courtesy to stay out of it.

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« Reply #545 on: April 24, 2012, 04:18:15 PM »

See, these problems in this thread all come out of the prohibition of polygamy.
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« Reply #546 on: April 24, 2012, 04:36:03 PM »

See, these problems in this thread all come out of the prohibition of polygamy.

Polygamy, homosexuality, prostitution.  I guess no one said that Christianity would be easy.  The only proscribed method is a giant PITA.
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« Reply #547 on: April 24, 2012, 04:56:38 PM »

What is wrong with you people? It's like John Galt meets Casanova.

When you screw with an existing relationship, you are screwing with people AND THAT IS WRONG. You don't go in and try to persuade someone who is already in a relationship to start dating you. IT IS PLAIN WRONG.

Stop this childish discussion already.

Oh please.

If the relationship is important enough to you that losing her will actually damage you, then do the right thing and MARRY her. If she says 'no' or 'not yet', then at least you'll know where you stand--which is that she is still keeping her options open, and you've got no reason to complain if she exercises that option. And by not asking her, you are letting her and everyone else know that you are doing the same.

Commitments matter--they are what adults make. Playground rules do not.

When should this commitment take place?  Within a month?  A few days?  Several hours?  I think that a marriage should be at least partly thought out.  Perhaps I am wrong.  If I had asked the last girl I dated to marry me after two or three dates she probably would have dumped me a whole lot sooner, which might have been a good thing.  The first girl I dated, when it got to the point that I knew that if I married her it would just be setting us up for a real fun divorce I did break up with her.  It took a while and was probably the hardest thing that I've done in my life (and yes, God has been punishing me for it) but I did it.  And now she is with someone who loves her a lot and is probably a better match for her anyway.  All the same, sometimes it takes years for these things to become apparent to both parties.  I don't think jumping into marriage right away in a country with no-fault divorce laws (and a resulting 50% divorce rate) is intelligent at all.  I also believe that when two people are in the process of trying to work this out to see if they like each other, other pricks should have the common decent courtesy to stay out of it.

 Roll Eyes I'm not advocating that anyone get married after 3 dates. But then I'm also not advocating that anyone make any kind of commitment after 3 dates.  And frankly, if you would experience anything more severe than mild disappointment if a girl you had been on 3 dates with dumped you then you  need to think about getting help of some kind because that is way too obsessive. And to your second point, I have never seen any evidence (either in personal experience or in the statistical studies on marriage that are put out from time to time) that people who take years to figure it out are any more successful at making a marriage work than those who who make up their mind within the first year--if anything the opposite is true for one simple fact: Whether you take 1 year or 5 years to 'figure out' if she's the right person, in 10 years neither she nor you are going to be the same person. What makes a marriage work is the commitment by both parties to *make* it work regardless of the fact that you are both going to keep growing and changing over time. People who take 5 years figuring out if their partner is the perfect partner are guaranteed to be disappointed when after 10 years she's not quite as perfect as she was at 5.

What I am saying is that the commitment and the emotional investment need to go together. If you are still 'figuring it out' then you need to extend her the same courtesy--and not only her but everyone who knows her. If you haven't actually committed to a lifetime, why would you expect her to ignore other options that might be better for her?

You can try to blame the 'prick' all you want, but if someone else makes her happier than you do, you have no one but yourself to truly blame.
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« Reply #548 on: April 24, 2012, 05:09:03 PM »

What is wrong with you people? It's like John Galt meets Casanova.

When you screw with an existing relationship, you are screwing with people AND THAT IS WRONG. You don't go in and try to persuade someone who is already in a relationship to start dating you. IT IS PLAIN WRONG.

Stop this childish discussion already.

Oh please.

If the relationship is important enough to you that losing her will actually damage you, then do the right thing and MARRY her. If she says 'no' or 'not yet', then at least you'll know where you stand--which is that she is still keeping her options open, and you've got no reason to complain if she exercises that option. And by not asking her, you are letting her and everyone else know that you are doing the same.

Commitments matter--they are what adults make. Playground rules do not.

When should this commitment take place?  Within a month?  A few days?  Several hours?  I think that a marriage should be at least partly thought out.  Perhaps I am wrong.  If I had asked the last girl I dated to marry me after two or three dates she probably would have dumped me a whole lot sooner, which might have been a good thing.  The first girl I dated, when it got to the point that I knew that if I married her it would just be setting us up for a real fun divorce I did break up with her.  It took a while and was probably the hardest thing that I've done in my life (and yes, God has been punishing me for it) but I did it.  And now she is with someone who loves her a lot and is probably a better match for her anyway.  All the same, sometimes it takes years for these things to become apparent to both parties.  I don't think jumping into marriage right away in a country with no-fault divorce laws (and a resulting 50% divorce rate) is intelligent at all.  I also believe that when two people are in the process of trying to work this out to see if they like each other, other pricks should have the common decent courtesy to stay out of it.

 Roll Eyes I'm not advocating that anyone get married after 3 dates. But then I'm also not advocating that anyone make any kind of commitment after 3 dates.  And frankly, if you would experience anything more severe than mild disappointment if a girl you had been on 3 dates with dumped you then you  need to think about getting help of some kind because that is way too obsessive.

It got to about 6 or 7 dates, and it was some pretty major disappointment. But don't worry, I did get some help.  I just refilled the prescription today!  Theoretically I should be speaking to my priest sometime this week for some additional help...supposing he calls me back.

Quote
And to your second point, I have never seen any evidence (either in personal experience or in the statistical studies on marriage that are put out from time to time) that people who take years to figure it out are any more successful at making a marriage work than those who who make up their mind within the first year--if anything the opposite is true for one simple fact: Whether you take 1 year or 5 years to 'figure out' if she's the right person, in 10 years neither she nor you are going to be the same person. What makes a marriage work is the commitment by both parties to *make* it work regardless of the fact that you are both going to keep growing and changing over time. People who take 5 years figuring out if their partner is the perfect partner are guaranteed to be disappointed when after 10 years she's not quite as perfect as she was at 5.

What I am saying is that the commitment and the emotional investment need to go together. If you are still 'figuring it out' then you need to extend her the same courtesy--and not only her but everyone who knows her. If you haven't actually committed to a lifetime, why would you expect her to ignore other options that might be better for her?

You can try to blame the 'prick' all you want, but if someone else makes her happier than you do, you have no one but yourself to truly blame.

Well, you've obviously been more successful at it then I have been, but we are going to have to agree to disagree.  I think that trying to get with a woman already in a relationship is morally reprehensible.  I'm not going to do it.  If I am going to end up lonely the rest of my life then so be it.  I've been that way a lot longer than I haven't.
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« Reply #549 on: April 24, 2012, 05:16:22 PM »

Enjoy your solitude.

What is wrong with you people? It's like John Galt meets Casanova.

When you screw with an existing relationship, you are screwing with people AND THAT IS WRONG. You don't go in and try to persuade someone who is already in a relationship to start dating you. IT IS PLAIN WRONG.

Stop this childish discussion already.

Oh please.

If the relationship is important enough to you that losing her will actually damage you, then do the right thing and MARRY her. If she says 'no' or 'not yet', then at least you'll know where you stand--which is that she is still keeping her options open, and you've got no reason to complain if she exercises that option. And by not asking her, you are letting her and everyone else know that you are doing the same.

Commitments matter--they are what adults make. Playground rules do not.

When should this commitment take place?  Within a month?  A few days?  Several hours?  I think that a marriage should be at least partly thought out.  Perhaps I am wrong.  If I had asked the last girl I dated to marry me after two or three dates she probably would have dumped me a whole lot sooner, which might have been a good thing.  The first girl I dated, when it got to the point that I knew that if I married her it would just be setting us up for a real fun divorce I did break up with her.  It took a while and was probably the hardest thing that I've done in my life (and yes, God has been punishing me for it) but I did it.  And now she is with someone who loves her a lot and is probably a better match for her anyway.  All the same, sometimes it takes years for these things to become apparent to both parties.  I don't think jumping into marriage right away in a country with no-fault divorce laws (and a resulting 50% divorce rate) is intelligent at all.  I also believe that when two people are in the process of trying to work this out to see if they like each other, other pricks should have the common decent courtesy to stay out of it.

 Roll Eyes I'm not advocating that anyone get married after 3 dates. But then I'm also not advocating that anyone make any kind of commitment after 3 dates.  And frankly, if you would experience anything more severe than mild disappointment if a girl you had been on 3 dates with dumped you then you  need to think about getting help of some kind because that is way too obsessive.

It got to about 6 or 7 dates, and it was some pretty major disappointment. But don't worry, I did get some help.  I just refilled the prescription today!  Theoretically I should be speaking to my priest sometime this week for some additional help...supposing he calls me back.

Quote
And to your second point, I have never seen any evidence (either in personal experience or in the statistical studies on marriage that are put out from time to time) that people who take years to figure it out are any more successful at making a marriage work than those who who make up their mind within the first year--if anything the opposite is true for one simple fact: Whether you take 1 year or 5 years to 'figure out' if she's the right person, in 10 years neither she nor you are going to be the same person. What makes a marriage work is the commitment by both parties to *make* it work regardless of the fact that you are both going to keep growing and changing over time. People who take 5 years figuring out if their partner is the perfect partner are guaranteed to be disappointed when after 10 years she's not quite as perfect as she was at 5.

What I am saying is that the commitment and the emotional investment need to go together. If you are still 'figuring it out' then you need to extend her the same courtesy--and not only her but everyone who knows her. If you haven't actually committed to a lifetime, why would you expect her to ignore other options that might be better for her?

You can try to blame the 'prick' all you want, but if someone else makes her happier than you do, you have no one but yourself to truly blame.

Well, you've obviously been more successful at it then I have been, but we are going to have to agree to disagree.  I think that trying to get with a woman already in a relationship is morally reprehensible.  I'm not going to do it.  If I am going to end up lonely the rest of my life then so be it.  I've been that way a lot longer than I haven't.
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« Reply #550 on: April 24, 2012, 05:25:00 PM »

Enjoy your solitude.

What is wrong with you people? It's like John Galt meets Casanova.

When you screw with an existing relationship, you are screwing with people AND THAT IS WRONG. You don't go in and try to persuade someone who is already in a relationship to start dating you. IT IS PLAIN WRONG.

Stop this childish discussion already.

Oh please.

If the relationship is important enough to you that losing her will actually damage you, then do the right thing and MARRY her. If she says 'no' or 'not yet', then at least you'll know where you stand--which is that she is still keeping her options open, and you've got no reason to complain if she exercises that option. And by not asking her, you are letting her and everyone else know that you are doing the same.

Commitments matter--they are what adults make. Playground rules do not.

When should this commitment take place?  Within a month?  A few days?  Several hours?  I think that a marriage should be at least partly thought out.  Perhaps I am wrong.  If I had asked the last girl I dated to marry me after two or three dates she probably would have dumped me a whole lot sooner, which might have been a good thing.  The first girl I dated, when it got to the point that I knew that if I married her it would just be setting us up for a real fun divorce I did break up with her.  It took a while and was probably the hardest thing that I've done in my life (and yes, God has been punishing me for it) but I did it.  And now she is with someone who loves her a lot and is probably a better match for her anyway.  All the same, sometimes it takes years for these things to become apparent to both parties.  I don't think jumping into marriage right away in a country with no-fault divorce laws (and a resulting 50% divorce rate) is intelligent at all.  I also believe that when two people are in the process of trying to work this out to see if they like each other, other pricks should have the common decent courtesy to stay out of it.

 Roll Eyes I'm not advocating that anyone get married after 3 dates. But then I'm also not advocating that anyone make any kind of commitment after 3 dates.  And frankly, if you would experience anything more severe than mild disappointment if a girl you had been on 3 dates with dumped you then you  need to think about getting help of some kind because that is way too obsessive.

It got to about 6 or 7 dates, and it was some pretty major disappointment. But don't worry, I did get some help.  I just refilled the prescription today!  Theoretically I should be speaking to my priest sometime this week for some additional help...supposing he calls me back.

Quote
And to your second point, I have never seen any evidence (either in personal experience or in the statistical studies on marriage that are put out from time to time) that people who take years to figure it out are any more successful at making a marriage work than those who who make up their mind within the first year--if anything the opposite is true for one simple fact: Whether you take 1 year or 5 years to 'figure out' if she's the right person, in 10 years neither she nor you are going to be the same person. What makes a marriage work is the commitment by both parties to *make* it work regardless of the fact that you are both going to keep growing and changing over time. People who take 5 years figuring out if their partner is the perfect partner are guaranteed to be disappointed when after 10 years she's not quite as perfect as she was at 5.

What I am saying is that the commitment and the emotional investment need to go together. If you are still 'figuring it out' then you need to extend her the same courtesy--and not only her but everyone who knows her. If you haven't actually committed to a lifetime, why would you expect her to ignore other options that might be better for her?

You can try to blame the 'prick' all you want, but if someone else makes her happier than you do, you have no one but yourself to truly blame.

Well, you've obviously been more successful at it then I have been, but we are going to have to agree to disagree.  I think that trying to get with a woman already in a relationship is morally reprehensible.  I'm not going to do it.  If I am going to end up lonely the rest of my life then so be it.  I've been that way a lot longer than I haven't.

I wasn't planning on it, but if the only way is to get with a girl already attached or go with out, it's the lesser of two evils.
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« Reply #551 on: April 24, 2012, 05:49:47 PM »


I wasn't planning on it, but if the only way is to get with a girl already attached or go with out, it's the lesser of two evils.

There is no evil except what you have made of it.  Fr. Sasa once said that we are not to be more merciful than God.  We should also not try to be more pious than God.  Courtship is a process that has been around for as long as there has been civilization.  It is competition.  Do not try to hide your fear of competition under some false morality.  Do not try to make up some bulls**t about some imagined "evil" in what is the NORMAL courtship process.  I know what I tell you does not mean anything to you, but you have also had a father of two girls tell you the same thing, and a very Godly woman who has also said the same thing.  I guess we are all wrong.  I guess what was wrong was to try to be serious in a thread that is pretty much a joke.   
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« Reply #552 on: April 24, 2012, 05:56:59 PM »

Whatever you do, stay away from pick-up artists.

http://xkcd.com/1027/
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« Reply #553 on: April 24, 2012, 05:58:13 PM »


I wasn't planning on it, but if the only way is to get with a girl already attached or go with out, it's the lesser of two evils.

There is no evil except what you have made of it.  Fr. Sasa once said that we are not to be more merciful than God.  We should also not try to be more pious than God.  Courtship is a process that has been around for as long as there has been civilization.  It is competition.  Do not try to hide your fear of competition under some false morality.  Do not try to make up some bulls**t about some imagined "evil" in what is the NORMAL courtship process.  I know what I tell you does not mean anything to you, but you have also had a father of two girls tell you the same thing, and a very Godly woman who has also said the same thing.  I guess we are all wrong.  I guess what was wrong was to try to be serious in a thread that is pretty much a joke.   

I think you should go easy on him. He's a young guy who's not successful with women; of course he's going to feel bitter about it. Maybe some constructive criticism, instead of just making him feel even more bitter?
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« Reply #554 on: April 24, 2012, 06:47:38 PM »

What is wrong with you people? It's like John Galt meets Casanova.

When you screw with an existing relationship, you are screwing with people AND THAT IS WRONG. You don't go in and try to persuade someone who is already in a relationship to start dating you. IT IS PLAIN WRONG.

Stop this childish discussion already.

Oh please.

If the relationship is important enough to you that losing her will actually damage you, then do the right thing and MARRY her. If she says 'no' or 'not yet', then at least you'll know where you stand--which is that she is still keeping her options open, and you've got no reason to complain if she exercises that option. And by not asking her, you are letting her and everyone else know that you are doing the same.

Commitments matter--they are what adults make. Playground rules do not.

When should this commitment take place?  Within a month?  A few days?  Several hours?  I think that a marriage should be at least partly thought out.  Perhaps I am wrong.  If I had asked the last girl I dated to marry me after two or three dates she probably would have dumped me a whole lot sooner, which might have been a good thing.  The first girl I dated, when it got to the point that I knew that if I married her it would just be setting us up for a real fun divorce I did break up with her.  It took a while and was probably the hardest thing that I've done in my life (and yes, God has been punishing me for it) but I did it.  And now she is with someone who loves her a lot and is probably a better match for her anyway.  All the same, sometimes it takes years for these things to become apparent to both parties.  I don't think jumping into marriage right away in a country with no-fault divorce laws (and a resulting 50% divorce rate) is intelligent at all.  I also believe that when two people are in the process of trying to work this out to see if they like each other, other pricks should have the common decent courtesy to stay out of it.

 Roll Eyes I'm not advocating that anyone get married after 3 dates. But then I'm also not advocating that anyone make any kind of commitment after 3 dates.  And frankly, if you would experience anything more severe than mild disappointment if a girl you had been on 3 dates with dumped you then you  need to think about getting help of some kind because that is way too obsessive. And to your second point, I have never seen any evidence (either in personal experience or in the statistical studies on marriage that are put out from time to time) that people who take years to figure it out are any more successful at making a marriage work than those who who make up their mind within the first year--if anything the opposite is true for one simple fact: Whether you take 1 year or 5 years to 'figure out' if she's the right person, in 10 years neither she nor you are going to be the same person. What makes a marriage work is the commitment by both parties to *make* it work regardless of the fact that you are both going to keep growing and changing over time. People who take 5 years figuring out if their partner is the perfect partner are guaranteed to be disappointed when after 10 years she's not quite as perfect as she was at 5.

What I am saying is that the commitment and the emotional investment need to go together. If you are still 'figuring it out' then you need to extend her the same courtesy--and not only her but everyone who knows her. If you haven't actually committed to a lifetime, why would you expect her to ignore other options that might be better for her?

You can try to blame the 'prick' all you want, but if someone else makes her happier than you do, you have no one but yourself to truly blame.

This analysis is so untrue to reality, I do not know where to begin with it.

I have spent too much time in the Family Court to believe that such legalism has any force in reality (I say this to short-circuit the inevitable criticism of my lack of experience).

When did we, as Orthodox Christians, become such great respectors of godless legal marriage, anyway? The ring goes on the finger and suddenly the seal of the godless state is sacrosanct? What does the ring even mean in a no-fault jurisdiction? It can all be undone with a little paperwork ...

I think your fundamental point is sound: that a wife or girlfriend is not property and one has no continually abiding ownership of her affection (which she is free to give to someone else at any time). Your case is damaged by your failure to recognise that the reality is somewhat more messy and less principled. The law is necessarily black-and-white, but reality is not.

Boyfriends and girlfriends break up all the time because one of them has found someone else. That is the reality. It is not, however, something to be gloried in and celebrated down at the pub on the Friday night, like a win in the NFL. I find discussing the subject with such a tone most disquieting.
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« Reply #555 on: April 24, 2012, 07:01:53 PM »

Marriage scares me, have you people seen the divorce laws and how common divorce is in North America? I don't want to marry someone then get a divorce and be stuck paying alimony forever and potentially lose my children.
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« Reply #556 on: April 24, 2012, 07:23:43 PM »


I wasn't planning on it, but if the only way is to get with a girl already attached or go with out, it's the lesser of two evils.

There is no evil except what you have made of it.  Fr. Sasa once said that we are not to be more merciful than God.  We should also not try to be more pious than God.  Courtship is a process that has been around for as long as there has been civilization.  It is competition.  Do not try to hide your fear of competition under some false morality.  Do not try to make up some bulls**t about some imagined "evil" in what is the NORMAL courtship process.  I know what I tell you does not mean anything to you, but you have also had a father of two girls tell you the same thing, and a very Godly woman who has also said the same thing.  I guess we are all wrong.  I guess what was wrong was to try to be serious in a thread that is pretty much a joke.   

I think you should go easy on him. He's a young guy who's not successful with women; of course he's going to feel bitter about it. Maybe some constructive criticism, instead of just making him feel even more bitter?

Believe me, I know him far better than you do.
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« Reply #557 on: April 24, 2012, 07:33:19 PM »

Marriage scares me, have you people seen the divorce laws and how common divorce is in North America? I don't want to marry someone then get a divorce and be stuck paying alimony forever and potentially lose my children.

How common is divorce?
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« Reply #558 on: April 24, 2012, 07:48:13 PM »

All right I humble myself before all of you. Are there any final pieces of advice/guidance all of you bickering gentlemen would share with me?

Never pet a burning dog.

What does that mean?

Exactly what it says. You asked for final pieces of advice/guidance, and someone told me that a long time ago. I think it's just general good advice, don't you?  Cheesy
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« Reply #559 on: April 24, 2012, 08:00:58 PM »

Marriage scares me, have you people seen the divorce laws and how common divorce is in North America? I don't want to marry someone then get a divorce and be stuck paying alimony forever and potentially lose my children.

So then, what is the alternative?  Live together until you are tired of each other? 
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« Reply #560 on: April 24, 2012, 08:01:43 PM »

All right I humble myself before all of you. Are there any final pieces of advice/guidance all of you bickering gentlemen would share with me?

Never pet a burning dog.

What does that mean?

Exactly what it says. You asked for final pieces of advice/guidance, and someone told me that a long time ago. I think it's just general good advice, don't you?  Cheesy

Pretty good advice as far as I can see.
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« Reply #561 on: April 24, 2012, 08:11:13 PM »

What is wrong with you people? It's like John Galt meets Casanova.

When you screw with an existing relationship, you are screwing with people AND THAT IS WRONG. You don't go in and try to persuade someone who is already in a relationship to start dating you. IT IS PLAIN WRONG.

Stop this childish discussion already.

Oh please.

If the relationship is important enough to you that losing her will actually damage you, then do the right thing and MARRY her. If she says 'no' or 'not yet', then at least you'll know where you stand--which is that she is still keeping her options open, and you've got no reason to complain if she exercises that option. And by not asking her, you are letting her and everyone else know that you are doing the same.

Commitments matter--they are what adults make. Playground rules do not.

When should this commitment take place?  Within a month?  A few days?  Several hours?  I think that a marriage should be at least partly thought out.  Perhaps I am wrong.  If I had asked the last girl I dated to marry me after two or three dates she probably would have dumped me a whole lot sooner, which might have been a good thing.  The first girl I dated, when it got to the point that I knew that if I married her it would just be setting us up for a real fun divorce I did break up with her.  It took a while and was probably the hardest thing that I've done in my life (and yes, God has been punishing me for it) but I did it.  And now she is with someone who loves her a lot and is probably a better match for her anyway.  All the same, sometimes it takes years for these things to become apparent to both parties.  I don't think jumping into marriage right away in a country with no-fault divorce laws (and a resulting 50% divorce rate) is intelligent at all.  I also believe that when two people are in the process of trying to work this out to see if they like each other, other pricks should have the common decent courtesy to stay out of it.

 Roll Eyes I'm not advocating that anyone get married after 3 dates. But then I'm also not advocating that anyone make any kind of commitment after 3 dates.  And frankly, if you would experience anything more severe than mild disappointment if a girl you had been on 3 dates with dumped you then you  need to think about getting help of some kind because that is way too obsessive. And to your second point, I have never seen any evidence (either in personal experience or in the statistical studies on marriage that are put out from time to time) that people who take years to figure it out are any more successful at making a marriage work than those who who make up their mind within the first year--if anything the opposite is true for one simple fact: Whether you take 1 year or 5 years to 'figure out' if she's the right person, in 10 years neither she nor you are going to be the same person. What makes a marriage work is the commitment by both parties to *make* it work regardless of the fact that you are both going to keep growing and changing over time. People who take 5 years figuring out if their partner is the perfect partner are guaranteed to be disappointed when after 10 years she's not quite as perfect as she was at 5.

What I am saying is that the commitment and the emotional investment need to go together. If you are still 'figuring it out' then you need to extend her the same courtesy--and not only her but everyone who knows her. If you haven't actually committed to a lifetime, why would you expect her to ignore other options that might be better for her?

You can try to blame the 'prick' all you want, but if someone else makes her happier than you do, you have no one but yourself to truly blame.

This analysis is so untrue to reality, I do not know where to begin with it.

I have spent too much time in the Family Court to believe that such legalism has any force in reality (I say this to short-circuit the inevitable criticism of my lack of experience).

When did we, as Orthodox Christians, become such great respectors of godless legal marriage, anyway? The ring goes on the finger and suddenly the seal of the godless state is sacrosanct? What does the ring even mean in a no-fault jurisdiction? It can all be undone with a little paperwork ...

I think your fundamental point is sound: that a wife or girlfriend is not property and one has no continually abiding ownership of her affection (which she is free to give to someone else at any time). Your case is damaged by your failure to recognise that the reality is somewhat more messy and less principled. The law is necessarily black-and-white, but reality is not.

Boyfriends and girlfriends break up all the time because one of them has found someone else. That is the reality. It is not, however, something to be gloried in and celebrated down at the pub on the Friday night, like a win in the NFL. I find discussing the subject with such a tone most disquieting.

I have no idea what you think you are responding to.

First, when did "Orthodox Christians, become such great respectors of godless legal marriage, anyway", I'd have to ask what evidence you have that it's 'become'. The command of marriage was given in Eden as one of the very first commands God gave the human race, and I have never seen anything in the Fathers other than that it has always applied to the entire human race. When Christ speaks of marriage and adultery in Matthew 5 and St. Paul speaks of it in 1 Cor 7 and Eph 5, they were speaking to audiences that did not know any marriage other than the civil ceremony you are so quick to dismiss (Marriage as an actual sacrament performed by the Church with associated Grace was not implemented by the Church until several centuries later).

Second, Punch and I have clearly and consistently distinguished between dating/courtship and engaged/married. To start mixing girlfriends and wives in your response is to either miss the point entirely or to continue the argument that there is no difference between the married state and the single--I know you think it's legalistic, but, again, your thinking cannot be supported from the Scriptures and Fathers who clearly do see the two as different things--if I convince a woman to leave her husband and marry me, we have both committed adultery, per Christ himself. If I convince a woman to leave her boyfriend and marry me--then all the Church says is that we're married--and that's a good thing.

Third, I do not consider my marriage a game. After my commitment to God (and inextricably tied to it), my marriage is the most important thing in my life. I am completely serious in discussing marriage--and therefore I was completely serious about my search for a wife, and in any advice I give others with respect to it. Yes, if you go after a woman strictly because you are competing with the current man in her life, that would be wrong. So would be practicing deceit or using violence or doing any thing else which is a sin in and of itself whether its associated with courtship or not.

(Finally, Family Court? Yes, that is experience. But it's experience with broken relationships, not with what goes into a successful courtship and marriage--i.e., I know several dozen ways to break my computer, but would be completely clueless about how to build one)
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« Reply #562 on: April 24, 2012, 08:16:15 PM »

Marriage scares me, have you people seen the divorce laws and how common divorce is in North America? I don't want to marry someone then get a divorce and be stuck paying alimony forever and potentially lose my children.

If you don't want to get married, don't date. Hang out with people as friends until you change your mind--but if you open the door to physical affection when marriage is not on the table you're just playing with fire as far as sexual sin goes.
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« Reply #563 on: April 24, 2012, 08:34:35 PM »

What is wrong with you people? It's like John Galt meets Casanova.

When you screw with an existing relationship, you are screwing with people AND THAT IS WRONG. You don't go in and try to persuade someone who is already in a relationship to start dating you. IT IS PLAIN WRONG.

Stop this childish discussion already.

Oh please.

If the relationship is important enough to you that losing her will actually damage you, then do the right thing and MARRY her. If she says 'no' or 'not yet', then at least you'll know where you stand--which is that she is still keeping her options open, and you've got no reason to complain if she exercises that option. And by not asking her, you are letting her and everyone else know that you are doing the same.

Commitments matter--they are what adults make. Playground rules do not.

When should this commitment take place?  Within a month?  A few days?  Several hours?  I think that a marriage should be at least partly thought out.  Perhaps I am wrong.  If I had asked the last girl I dated to marry me after two or three dates she probably would have dumped me a whole lot sooner, which might have been a good thing.  The first girl I dated, when it got to the point that I knew that if I married her it would just be setting us up for a real fun divorce I did break up with her.  It took a while and was probably the hardest thing that I've done in my life (and yes, God has been punishing me for it) but I did it.  And now she is with someone who loves her a lot and is probably a better match for her anyway.  All the same, sometimes it takes years for these things to become apparent to both parties.  I don't think jumping into marriage right away in a country with no-fault divorce laws (and a resulting 50% divorce rate) is intelligent at all.  I also believe that when two people are in the process of trying to work this out to see if they like each other, other pricks should have the common decent courtesy to stay out of it.

 Roll Eyes I'm not advocating that anyone get married after 3 dates. But then I'm also not advocating that anyone make any kind of commitment after 3 dates.  And frankly, if you would experience anything more severe than mild disappointment if a girl you had been on 3 dates with dumped you then you  need to think about getting help of some kind because that is way too obsessive. And to your second point, I have never seen any evidence (either in personal experience or in the statistical studies on marriage that are put out from time to time) that people who take years to figure it out are any more successful at making a marriage work than those who who make up their mind within the first year--if anything the opposite is true for one simple fact: Whether you take 1 year or 5 years to 'figure out' if she's the right person, in 10 years neither she nor you are going to be the same person. What makes a marriage work is the commitment by both parties to *make* it work regardless of the fact that you are both going to keep growing and changing over time. People who take 5 years figuring out if their partner is the perfect partner are guaranteed to be disappointed when after 10 years she's not quite as perfect as she was at 5.

What I am saying is that the commitment and the emotional investment need to go together. If you are still 'figuring it out' then you need to extend her the same courtesy--and not only her but everyone who knows her. If you haven't actually committed to a lifetime, why would you expect her to ignore other options that might be better for her?

You can try to blame the 'prick' all you want, but if someone else makes her happier than you do, you have no one but yourself to truly blame.

This analysis is so untrue to reality, I do not know where to begin with it.

I have spent too much time in the Family Court to believe that such legalism has any force in reality (I say this to short-circuit the inevitable criticism of my lack of experience).

When did we, as Orthodox Christians, become such great respectors of godless legal marriage, anyway? The ring goes on the finger and suddenly the seal of the godless state is sacrosanct? What does the ring even mean in a no-fault jurisdiction? It can all be undone with a little paperwork ...

I think your fundamental point is sound: that a wife or girlfriend is not property and one has no continually abiding ownership of her affection (which she is free to give to someone else at any time). Your case is damaged by your failure to recognise that the reality is somewhat more messy and less principled. The law is necessarily black-and-white, but reality is not.

Boyfriends and girlfriends break up all the time because one of them has found someone else. That is the reality. It is not, however, something to be gloried in and celebrated down at the pub on the Friday night, like a win in the NFL. I find discussing the subject with such a tone most disquieting.

I have no idea what you think you are responding to.

First, when did "Orthodox Christians, become such great respectors of godless legal marriage, anyway", I'd have to ask what evidence you have that it's 'become'. The command of marriage was given in Eden as one of the very first commands God gave the human race, and I have never seen anything in the Fathers other than that it has always applied to the entire human race. When Christ speaks of marriage and adultery in Matthew 5 and St. Paul speaks of it in 1 Cor 7 and Eph 5, they were speaking to audiences that did not know any marriage other than the civil ceremony you are so quick to dismiss (Marriage as an actual sacrament performed by the Church with associated Grace was not implemented by the Church until several centuries later).

Second, Punch and I have clearly and consistently distinguished between dating/courtship and engaged/married. To start mixing girlfriends and wives in your response is to either miss the point entirely or to continue the argument that there is no difference between the married state and the single--I know you think it's legalistic, but, again, your thinking cannot be supported from the Scriptures and Fathers who clearly do see the two as different things--if I convince a woman to leave her husband and marry me, we have both committed adultery, per Christ himself. If I convince a woman to leave her boyfriend and marry me--then all the Church says is that we're married--and that's a good thing.

Third, I do not consider my marriage a game. After my commitment to God (and inextricably tied to it), my marriage is the most important thing in my life. I am completely serious in discussing marriage--and therefore I was completely serious about my search for a wife, and in any advice I give others with respect to it. Yes, if you go after a woman strictly because you are competing with the current man in her life, that would be wrong. So would be practicing deceit or using violence or doing any thing else which is a sin in and of itself whether its associated with courtship or not.

(Finally, Family Court? Yes, that is experience. But it's experience with broken relationships, not with what goes into a successful courtship and marriage--i.e., I know several dozen ways to break my computer, but would be completely clueless about how to build one)

Thank you for your fourth paragraph ("thirdly", &c.), which is generous and makes the points I think have been missing thus far.

Unfortunately, your analysis misses that there was no marriage registry in Eden. The married state was simply the commitment of two individuals to exist in mutual union to the exclusion of others, as honoured by the community. It was so for, at least, many centuries. It is the breach of this arrangement which the Lord and the Fathers called "adultery".

I am simply stating that, in this current world, where people do not marry at seventeen or nineteen and relationships routinely run on for many years before rings are exchanged, the reality is that people in relationships increasingly rely on implicit promises of loyalty and fidelity and those around them become increasingly unwilling to disturb those things as the relationship becomes more and more "serious". It takes time for such commitment and societal recognition of it to crystallise. My proof of this is that no-one takes seriously a marriage formalised during a drunken night in Vegas, though they might with time and demonstrated loyalty and fidelity.

For my part, I would prefer not to be a contributor to the heartbreak of another person, even if not the ultimate cause. Do unto others and all that. I suppose there's no harm in admitting to being a sap and a sentimentalist, so please consider me so.
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« Reply #564 on: April 24, 2012, 08:37:55 PM »

(Finally, Family Court? Yes, that is experience. But it's experience with broken relationships, not with what goes into a successful courtship and marriage--i.e., I know several dozen ways to break my computer, but would be completely clueless about how to build one)

I prefer to think of it this way: I have enough experience of human misery that I know what to avoid.

God willing, I will one day have the same experience of success that you do. May it continue.
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« Reply #565 on: April 24, 2012, 09:25:28 PM »

However, if a man (other than her boyfriend) shows interest in her and she reciprocates....then was she truly in love with the original boyfriend?

Boys, when a girl is truly in love....nobody could tear her from  her man.

Very true. My husband and I are the rare pairing of high school sweethearts, so it did take several years before we got married. If someone else expressed interest in me, I didn't reciprocate. I felt unavailable, because I was (and am) happy. So my gut reaction is to agree with people like akimori and dzheremi, because that's how it worked for me.

However, I have had friends who, while in a relationship with someone else, met someone that they truly felt they would be happier with. It seems like these were ultimately good moves for them, but to get there was so messy--after breaking up with their old boyfriends, they wouldn't want to start dating again too soon for fear of the ex thinking that the new guy was the reason for the breakup (even if it was). The pressure and guilt they were heaping on themselves was completely unnecessary. They'd end up resorting to "dating in secret" for a while, as if they were cheating on the ex they already broke up with! It made no sense to me.
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« Reply #566 on: April 24, 2012, 09:27:36 PM »


Unfortunately, your analysis misses that there was no marriage registry in Eden. The married state was simply the commitment of two individuals to exist in mutual union to the exclusion of others, as honoured by the community. It was so for, at least, many centuries. It is the breach of this arrangement which the Lord and the Fathers called "adultery".

I am simply stating that, in this current world, where people do not marry at seventeen or nineteen and relationships routinely run on for many years before rings are exchanged, the reality is that people in relationships increasingly rely on implicit promises of loyalty and fidelity and those around them become increasingly unwilling to disturb those things as the relationship becomes more and more "serious". It takes time for such commitment and societal recognition of it to crystallise. My proof of this is that no-one takes seriously a marriage formalised during a drunken night in Vegas, though they might with time and demonstrated loyalty and fidelity.

For my part, I would prefer not to be a contributor to the heartbreak of another person, even if not the ultimate cause. Do unto others and all that. I suppose there's no harm in admitting to being a sap and a sentimentalist, so please consider me so.

I think that you need to study Judeo /  Christian marriage a little more closely.  Marriage was NOT two people deciding that they were in love and slowing building into a marriage.  Marriage was (and continues to be in many places) an agreement between families, often with NO consent between the marrying parties.  There were marriage rituals BEFORE there was a Church, and these rituals determined when a marriage took place.  There was also no sex before a marriage.  Finding your new wife to be anything other than a virgin was a death sentence for her.  Marriage, as pertaining to Orthodox Christians and their predecessors, has always been a VERY formalized affair, even before the Church rituals that we have today.  There was even a formalized betrothal, which could last years, before a marriage was consummated.  As we see in the Gospels, the only way to end a betrothal was by a divorce.  

I suppose the problem here is that I do not understand the modern customs of this country.  It seems that all young men and women are these days are f***buddies and the relationship between them has nothing to do with Orthodoxy, or even Christianity for that matter.  In such cases, make up your own rules.  But if you come to an Orthodox forum to ask these questions of Orthodox people, expect Orthodox answers.  I dare you to find any support for your position in any of the religious writings of our Church.  As to what other cultures do, I do not care.  I am not on their forums.  I still hold the very old fashioned view that if you screw, you are married.  My priest holds the same view.  Anything after that with another woman is adultery.  So, if being in a boyfriend / girlfriend relationship means that you are living together and banging like bunnies, then I guess you are already married in my world.  However, if you are truly simply boyfriend and girlfriend, then what Witega and I have written holds true, in our religion.  I committed to marry my wife the first time we slept together.  And I did.  And I have remained true to her for all these years.  I guess if you advocate some other arrangement, I have nothing more to say since we are not discussing apples and apples.  I guess what bothers me is, like Witega, my marriage is the second most important thing in my life, right after my God.  When people ask my advice in the matter, I give the advice in this light.  It kind of upsets me when a person asks a serious question about the courtship, which should be leading to marriage, only to have so many experts that have never been married dispense with opinions that have little to nothing to do with the teachings of our Church.  It confuses me.  If I have a problem with my car, I would certainly never seek the advice of someone who has never successfully repaired an automobile.  But regarding a Sacrament of the Church, everyone is an expert.  But I guess what we have here is just the wisdom of today's world.
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« Reply #567 on: April 24, 2012, 10:00:38 PM »

Finding a wife, pragmatically:

A friend's grandfather proposed. The woman said no. He then proposed to her younger sister. This time he had better luck, and they were happily married for the rest of their lives.
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« Reply #568 on: April 24, 2012, 10:14:17 PM »

I am simply stating that, in this current world, where people do not marry at seventeen or nineteen and relationships routinely run on for many years before rings are exchanged, the reality is that people in relationships increasingly rely on implicit promises of loyalty and fidelity and those around them become increasingly unwilling to disturb those things as the relationship becomes more and more "serious". It takes time for such commitment and societal recognition of it to crystallise. My proof of this is that no-one takes seriously a marriage formalised during a drunken night in Vegas, though they might with time and demonstrated loyalty and fidelity.

I think that one place you and I are more talking past each other than disagreeing is on this issue of commitment. Remember, the conversation started with JamesR's question about a *high school* relationship. As such, I've been mainly thinking and talking about people who are dating--whereas you seem to be focusing on people in long-term relationships who are living together or basically in a common-law marriage etc.

If a couple has been together for years (particularly living together) and everybody 'knows' there is something implicit between them, I probably wouldn't advise interfering (pointing to Liza and Delphine's witness that if the woman actually believes there's a commitment, you're just going to get shot down). But so long as those promises are 'implicit', I certainly don't think there's any sin in asking. Because as long as they are implicit, *someone* (most likely the man, but possibly the woman or both) is keeping their options open--because if they weren't, they would go ahead and make it 'explicit' (and by that I include not only formal marriages, because I have known couples who for various reasons (feminist rejection of marriage as a Patriarchal control mechanism, didn't have an RC annulment and were RC enough not to get remarried without one--but not RC enough to keep from living together as man and wife in its absence) did not have the formal marriage but actually considered themselves committed for life and publicly spoke that way).

Let me put it this way, in my circle of acquaintance is a couple who have been dating for 7 years. For at least the last 3, she has wanted to get married. He says he plans to marry her, he says when he pictures his future, it's always with them together--but right now's just not the right time because at first he was focussing on his career, and now he's focusing on his start-up business, and ... As far as I'm concerned, if any man comes along who's willing to put a higher priority on the girl than her current boyfriend and give her what she wants and deserves, he'd be doing the right thing by both of them. On the other hand, I'd never advise someone to actually pursue her, because I know several guys who have tried and gotten nowhere--because she is actually committed, even if he is not. But if he wants me (or anyone else) to respect his commitment--then he needs to actually make it.
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« Reply #569 on: April 24, 2012, 10:36:32 PM »

Whoa! I am totally flabbergasted  here  and i am going to be harsh, but this is not meant as a personal attack on any of you but rather a vehemient opposition to your ideas  … are you guys saying that if the girl is not married yet in a committed relationship of discernment ie has a boyfriend, and her boyfriend’s friend happened to think he likes her and considers her a wife material, then its okay for him to try and get her affection too? Is this the moral of the story? Are you suggesting that as long as they are not married any form of relationship that might lead to the marriage ( since marriage does not occur in a vacuum, both involved had to invest some committed emotional and temporal commitment for it to actually materialize ) is meaningless and a fair game as a person without any kind of relationship?
Girl saying I have a boyfriend ….. is  … meaningless?
Guy saying I have a girlfriend is meaningless?

So,In order for it to be meaningful relationship for us, they 1 either have to have sex . 2, have to be married?

The third person looking in can tell himself or herself, that hey its okay they are not married even if I am coveting my brother’s girlfriend, or my sister’s boyfriend. The person might tell themselves that the boyfriend is undeserving of the girl they covet, they think of him as ugly, unrefined, unappreciative of her etc.. and by no means should he have the affection of such a girl the person thinks should reserve her affection only for guys like himself…… and that makes it okay to disrespect the relationship and hurt the brother that obviously has feelings for the girl who is his girlfriend? Is it okay to destroy someone unsuspecting of us, because they trusted us to respect a relationship when we know of its existence and by attempting to seduce and lure the other person for what at the moment we believe to be a “ noble affair” because after all our Machiavellian logic says “ the end justifies the means!” but have we considered that Christ is not Machiavellian and we have to answer for the pain and suffering we have inflicted. An emotional pain: that lasts longer than a pain of a flesh wound.

Yes it is true even the married ones are free to walk away if they decided to, however, if we see that the married person we think is an angel is unhappy, what would we do? Would we swoop in, and offer the fabulous alternative that is ‘ourselves”, or would we help the two to work out their problems?  Some have been known to say so  and so husband would have never cheated on her if she knew how to take care of him, and so and so’s wife would have never cheated on him if he had been there for her to meet all her needs and keep her happy. That was their excuse for being the third person KNOWINGLY ( this term being the key, whether we knew or not is the point of the entire argument) so Where would it stop… our moral and ethical elasticity?  Numero uno can come up with all sorts of pretexts to get what it wants, but to elevate such deceit and betrayal to some kind of Christian obligation or a work of ‘Love’ is going a bit too far, it might insult the intelligence of some people.

Relationships fall apart for number of reasons, but validating the morality of knowingly coveting and interfering with a brother’s girlfriend, or a sister’s boyfriend with the intent of diverting their affection towards the self is immoral by itself, no matter what the end result may be, the means used is immoral as our validation of it. The person we have hurt is Loved by God also, we are not the favorites, with halos around our heads, there is One who is watching our action and knows our intent and he will hold us accountable for such actions.

Something about this reminded me of Marlowe’s The Jew of Malta : “ Thou has committed / Fornication: but that was in another country,/ and besides , the wench is dead”

I am sorry for being so harsh, but exceptions while they may exist, some can never be advocated as valid and right.  Conscience should stand in the way of some of our impulses don’t you think?
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« Reply #570 on: April 24, 2012, 10:40:00 PM »

These posts are getting bigger, and that's a lot of words.
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« Reply #571 on: April 24, 2012, 10:44:39 PM »

 Grin I know, I could feel a rant comming when I started to type lol
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« Reply #572 on: April 24, 2012, 11:01:57 PM »

These posts are getting bigger, and that's a lot of words.


"The Prince" is one of my favorite books.  I keep a copy on my desk at work.
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« Reply #573 on: April 24, 2012, 11:06:02 PM »

I'm going to be honest, Hiwot. I've had a long day and I didn't read all of that. But from skimming it, it seems like I agree with your overall point. I would, however, make a distinction between a guy or gal with a girlfriend/boyfriend who is/would be moving on from their current relationship in order to be with someone else, and the kind of "relationship coup" someone else mentioned (I love that term; fits perfectly). I don't think there would anything wrong with the first, but how the latter can be approvingly posted about...it baffles me.

I do have a question for some people in this thread: It seems that the people who wouldn't want to disrupt others' preexisting relationships are being told "enjoy being alone". Is that a general comment reflecting the disrupters' experiences (i.e., is it that you didn't have success with women who were single?), or meant to establish a sort of principle, say, you're shooting yourself in the foot if you don't consider women already in relationships as available to you?
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« Reply #574 on: April 24, 2012, 11:09:14 PM »

I guess what is most odd about the arguments against pursuing someone's "girlfriend" is that we forget that she is not an inflatable doll that he posesses, but an actual human being that can string two letters together into the word "NO".  I may buy some of these arguments if the woman had no choice in the matter as in nature where the strongest male simply gets what he wants.  It seems like the we are divided into several camps here; 1) the OP who simply asked if he should try, 2) the unmarried ones who think that he will burn in the eternal flames of hell for even thinking about it, 3) the married ones that say "go for it", and 4) the women who pretty much say "if we really love him, we will say NO to you anyway".  Interesting, and rather thought provoking.
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« Reply #575 on: April 24, 2012, 11:22:27 PM »

What if it's not about infantilizing her, but standing up for a principle consistent with how you view relationships in general?
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« Reply #576 on: April 24, 2012, 11:24:21 PM »

I'm going to be honest, Hiwot. I've had a long day and I didn't read all of that. But from skimming it, it seems like I agree with your overall point. I would, however, make a distinction between a guy or gal with a girlfriend/boyfriend who is/would be moving on from their current relationship in order to be with someone else, and the kind of "relationship coup" someone else mentioned (I love that term; fits perfectly). I don't think there would anything wrong with the first, but how the latter can be approvingly posted about...it baffles me.

I do have a question for some people in this thread: It seems that the people who wouldn't want to disrupt others' preexisting relationships are being told "enjoy being alone". Is that a general comment reflecting the disrupters' experiences (i.e., is it that you didn't have success with women who were single?), or meant to establish a sort of principle, say, you're shooting yourself in the foot if you don't consider women already in relationships as available to you?

Good question.  In fact, VERY good question.  The age of the person in question would have to be taken into account, and I am probably thinking more in the context of my own sons, the youngest of whom is 22, and not so much in the context of the OP who is, I believe, 16.  I am also thinking in terms of absolutes.  As Paul says, all things are lawful for me, but not all are beneficial.  I believe that in either case, a coup under the terms that I discussed is "lawful".  In the case of the 16 year old, probably not the best advised since I think that 16 is too young to be married and the gains do not offset the possible hurt.  However, as one gets older, the pool of available "single" woman that are not lesbians or bats**t crazy becomes smaller and smaller.  If you are after a good woman that you want to be totally committed to and marry, you may have to at least consider "stealing" her from someone who is not as committed to a permanent relationship with her as you are.  As I said, in this case, as long as no formal (or strong informal) vows have been made by the "target" party, I see no problem legally or morally with the pursuit.  So, are you shooting yourself in the foot?  In my view, yes.  Anytime you have increased competition for a diminishing resource and you are not willing to use all the means open to you due to some made up taboo, you are going to be left behind by those that do not share your taboo.  That is why a vegetarian would not live long in the Arctic.  As long as you decide that you are simply not going to eat meat, you are going to die.  And the other people who are eating your share of whale and fish are not going to shed too many tears over it since it was your choice and no law that caused your demise.  I am sorry to use this imagery with women since they are NOT a commodity to be traded but real people, but I use it to be clear.
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« Reply #577 on: April 24, 2012, 11:26:56 PM »

What if it's not about infantilizing her, but standing up for a principle consistent with how you view relationships in general?

I have absolutely no problem whatever with you or anyone else personally standing up to a principle that they believe in.  I do have a problem with them whining about the effects of standing up to that principle and trying to change the ground rules for everyone else to even the field for themselves.  I think there is a difference, don't you?
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« Reply #578 on: April 24, 2012, 11:27:13 PM »

I'm going to be honest, Hiwot. I've had a long day and I didn't read all of that. But from skimming it, it seems like I agree with your overall point. I would, however, make a distinction between a guy or gal with a girlfriend/boyfriend who is/would be moving on from their current relationship in order to be with someone else, and the kind of "relationship coup" someone else mentioned (I love that term; fits perfectly). I don't think there would anything wrong with the first, but how the latter can be approvingly posted about...it baffles me.

I do have a question for some people in this thread: It seems that the people who wouldn't want to disrupt others' preexisting relationships are being told "enjoy being alone". Is that a general comment reflecting the disrupters' experiences (i.e., is it that you didn't have success with women who were single?), or meant to establish a sort of principle, say, you're shooting yourself in the foot if you don't consider women already in relationships as available to you?

yes dzheremi,I agree with you, akimori, and others who have said the same thing. I was addressing only the part where it was okay to knowingly disrupt someones relationship. I agree there is nothing wrong with ending a relationship , when it is not working for either of them for whatever reasons they deem valid, as long as it is done honorably with honesty. if they have met a different person who they think is right for them, let them be the ones to end it quickly whether there is a chance with the other person or not because obviously the one they are with is not the right person. we are speaking from the perspective of the two people in the relationship and what the discernment process entails. the other argument  about the snatchers is quite a different one as you already said it.  Smiley
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« Reply #579 on: April 24, 2012, 11:41:00 PM »

However, as one gets older, the pool of available "single" woman that are not lesbians or bats**t crazy becomes smaller and smaller.

Oh...now you're speaking my language...

Quote
If you are after a good woman that you want to be totally committed to and marry, you may have to at least consider "stealing" her from someone who is not as committed to a permanent relationship with her as you are.
 

Forgive me for sounding cynical, but do you (the general "you") think you're able to accurately judge such a thing when you obviously have a vested interest in presenting yourself as "more committed", and diminishing whatever commitment there may (or may not) be with the current guy? After all, there are people out there who will spin any kind of tale to get the girl/guy.

Quote
As I said, in this case, as long as no formal (or strong informal) vows have been made by the "target" party, I see no problem legally or morally with the pursuit.
 

Again, how do you judge the strength of the vows?

Quote
So, are you shooting yourself in the foot?  In my view, yes.  Anytime you have increased competition for a diminishing resource and you are not willing to use all the means open to you due to some made up taboo, you are going to be left behind by those that do not share your taboo.

We're still talking about women, right? Not...grain or oil or something...?

Quote
That is why a vegetarian would not live long in the Arctic.  As long as you decide that you are simply not going to eat meat, you are going to die.  And the other people who are eating your share of whale and fish are not going to shed too many tears over it since it was your choice and no law that caused your demise.  I am sorry to use this imagery with women since they are NOT a commodity to be traded but real people, but I use it to be clear.

Ah, okay. You have an interesting view of the world. I should like to subscribe to your newsletter.
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« Reply #580 on: April 25, 2012, 12:25:05 AM »


We're still talking about women, right? Not...grain or oil or something...?



No, no, no. Grain and oil are what you trade to parents for a woman if you don't have the customary livestock. See much earlier in this thread about appropriate livestock-to-woman exchange rates.
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« Reply #581 on: April 25, 2012, 12:42:40 AM »

Quote
As I said, in this case, as long as no formal (or strong informal) vows have been made by the "target" party, I see no problem legally or morally with the pursuit.
 

Again, how do you judge the strength of the vows?

How about by whether or not they exist? If there are formal vows (engaged/married), then you can know they exist and what they entail (or should entail) and move on. But if they are informal how are you going to know if they exist or how strong they are if you don't *ask*?

That's what mystifies me about so many of the objections put forth here. At least mine and Punch's position is clear about when a woman's unavailable--when she's made a formal commitment or when she says, "No thank you not interested" (whether her reasoning is her informal commitments or just a lack of interest in you). But at what point do the rest of you think it becomes immoral to ask a woman "would you like to go out sometime?" and "Okay, well if you change your mind give me a call?" When you see her out on a date with a man? (even if for all you know she never plans to see him again). when she goes out with the same guy for 6 months (even when she's just doing it because it's more fun than sitting home alone while she's waiting for something better to come along--and he knows it)? When she's been going out with the same guy for 2 years (but is fed up with his waffling and just looking for a trigger to justify her doing what she knows she's going to do anyway)? How do you know these things if you don't *ask* and let her know there's another option--if she's interested.

It's not about being better than her current boyfriend--it's about being a different option, if she wants one.
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« Reply #582 on: April 25, 2012, 12:43:01 AM »

But so long as those promises are 'implicit', I certainly don't think there's any sin in asking. Because as long as they are implicit, *someone* (most likely the man, but possibly the woman or both) is keeping their options open--because if they weren't, they would go ahead and make it 'explicit'

...in my circle of acquaintance is a couple who have been dating for 7 years. For at least the last 3, she has wanted to get married. He says he plans to marry her, he says when he pictures his future, it's always with them together--but right now's just not the right time because at first he was focussing on his career, and now he's focusing on his start-up business...

I know that this is probably very stupid of me to disagree with a married man old enough to be my father with years more knowledge and experience than me, but Mr Witega, I feel inclined to disagree with you on a couple of points here. Sometimes making their committment 'explicit' is much harder than some of these oldsters on here make it out to me because we come from different generations. Nowadays getting married for younger people is not as easy as the elders are making it out to be; you need money. You said yourself that a man should put his girlfriend/life/fiance higher than almost everything and take care of her as much as he can, and how is he supposed to do that if he does not have money yet? He needs to focus first on getting his job and cash flow coming in. And that is not as easy as it may have been for the oldsters. Nowadays college is almost essential for a decent job and finishing high-school is mandatory and college costs money as well, so it really is a hard process. If anything, it seems more immature to me to just marry a woman because you 'love her' relying solely on your emotional impulses and not reason, because even if you marry her, she is still going to struggle as the couple struggles economically. If he really loved her, then he would put off marriage for a while until he can get his money. I don't know if this is a wise decision or not, so your input would be appreciated, but I've sort of implicitely decided that I would not marry until I am economically stable.
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« Reply #583 on: April 25, 2012, 02:55:17 AM »

Witega, if Punch hadn't included "or strong informal", I wouldn't have asked that question. In context, however, I think it makes perfect sense to wonder, as your actions are going to based on how you judge such a situation, so it'd be good to try to be relatively confident that you know in fact that any of the scenarios you're thinking of actually apply (e.g., that she actually isn't going to be seeing that guy again, to use one of your examples).

Anyway...when is it acceptable...I would say that the "she's sick of her guy and looking for an out" standard is acceptable. That seems like something different than deciding for yourself that you're better than her current guy* and are going to try to break them up so that she will hopefully date you instead.

* - I'm not sure I really buy the idea that it's just being an alternative, as though there's no implicit (or potentially explicit) value-judgment being made here. Everyone is just an alternative, but without any reason to choose one over another if we're going to somehow remove the natural impulse to make ourselves look better in comparison to someone else. That's how it works, no? I have a feeling I may be misunderstanding you here...
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« Reply #584 on: April 25, 2012, 08:19:29 AM »

These posts are getting bigger, and that's a lot of words.


"The Prince" is one of my favorite books.  I keep a copy on my desk at work.

It's been a few years since I read it. I need to reread it.
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