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Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: I wish these people were still posting
« Reply #225 on: March 09, 2017, 02:54:39 PM »
I think Christians should unite...
Iconodule's and Mina's ideas that "having/being in two natures" and formal acceptance of Chalcedon are not essential issues to identifying Orthodoxy are personally appealing to me. That is how I "want to hear things". Were it up to me, Antonious, I would use common faith in Christ-God and the Branch Theory to declare the OO, RC, ACOE, Anglican, and Lutheran Churches legitimate and have communion with them.

Let me be sure I am understanding you clearly here:

1. You view the Oriental Orthodox Church in the same way that you view the Roman Catholics, the Assyrian Church of the East, the Anglicans, and the Lutherans.  In other words: heterodox.  Right?

2. Were it up to you, you would unite all of the churches you named above based simply upon the fact that we all have a common faith in Christ, and personally speaking, you are an adherent of the Branch Theory.  Right?

I went to communion at a Coptic church once, but they denied me.

You tried to commune in a Coptic Church?

My obstacle, Antonious, is that I know I can't decide Orthodoxy based on my wants.

I'm not asking you to decide whether or not our churches enter into communion based upon your desires.  I'm asking if you personally believe our Church to be Orthodox.  Are you saying here, "The Eastern Orthodox Church tells me you are not Orthodox, so, as much as I wish it were otherwise, the answer for me is no"?  If so, that is perfectly fine.  Just please be clear about it and knock off the obfuscating.

My understanding based on the above Conciliarism is that if the 7 councils were (A) correct and (B) ecumenical, Orthodox would continue to accept them, whereas otherwise Orthodox (A) would reject them or (B) could ignore them, respectively.

So acceptance of the 7 councils as Ecumenical is for you a necessary component of Orthodoxy.  Right?

I think Orthodoxy has strong Conciliarism and...Chalcedon is ecumenical, and as the Joint EO-OO Statement says, fundamentally correct.

Acknowledging that the statement of faith produced by a council is not the same thing as deeming that council "fundamentally correct" in all of its aspects.  I don't think the Oriental Orthodox representatives at Aarhus went that far.  I know that they definitely didn't say that they regarded the council to be Ecumenical, as in binding for our Church.

What amphibians did you have? We dammed up the drainage ditch near our house, and it was a cool place for tadpoles.

I have owned various newts, salamanders, frogs, and toads over the years.

Two things I learned about gerbils: When you get male and female together, they make a ton of babies. We are looking at 8 babies per litter, 12 litters per year, for maybe 2.5 years total. That's 240 babies.


The other thing is that when you separate the parents to stop the litters, the mother goes gerbil-criminally insane and bites those babies who habitually choose to crawl out of the nest, so that they in turn grow up to be severe biters, which is unnatural for gerbils.

Best thing is if you hold them often when they are so little that they are still blind. When that happens you can get a soul-friend for life.

Were you able to find homes for all of the babies?
Worship is theology, so a church which brings Evangelical and Charismatic "praise & worship" into its corporate life is no longer Orthodox.  It is, by definition, heterodox.  Those "Orthodox" leaders who make theological arguments for the incorporation of heteropraxis into the life of the Church are heretics.

http://returntoorthodoxy.com/

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: I wish these people were still posting
« Reply #226 on: March 09, 2017, 03:09:32 PM »
Were it up to me, Antonious, I would use common faith in Christ-God and the Branch Theory to declare the OO, RC, ACOE, Anglican, and Lutheran Churches legitimate and have communion with them.

I went to communion at a Coptic church once, but they denied me.

Good.
I'm making a firm decision to stay with the Orthodox Church.

My point is you should try to fixate on something else. I suggest Christ.

Offline Remnkemi

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Re: I wish these people were still posting
« Reply #227 on: March 09, 2017, 05:51:42 PM »

I also provided citations where
OO has stated Christ did not have two natures.
How deceptive and twisted. I wrote "NO OO has stated Christ did not have two natures" and you conveniently remove the most important part of my sentence as if it were my own quote. This is not the first time you have omitted key parts of what I said. And I know I'm not the only one you have done this to. How do you expect to have any serious discussion, when as Antonios said, you are "making us out to be ... ultimately [a] heterodox bunch of weirdos ... for the purpose of controlling the narrative."

Offline rakovsky

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Re: I wish these people were still posting
« Reply #228 on: March 09, 2017, 06:05:56 PM »
Were it up to me, Antonious, I would use common faith in Christ-God and the Branch Theory to declare the OO, RC, ACOE, Anglican, and Lutheran Churches legitimate and have communion with them.

I went to communion at a Coptic church once, but they denied me.

Good.
Do you have pleasure in me personally being refused communion?
The ocean, impassable by men, and the world beyond it are directed by the same ordinances of the Master. ~ I Clement 20

Offline rakovsky

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Re: I wish these people were still posting
« Reply #229 on: March 09, 2017, 06:37:13 PM »
1. You view the Oriental Orthodox Church in the same way that you view the Roman Catholics, the Assyrian Church of the East, the Anglicans, and the Lutherans.
Not quite, since eg. the ACOE doesn't accept Ephesus I AFAIK, and there are many differences between us and the other churches you listed.

Quote
  In other words: heterodox.  Right?
In the EO Church, usually OOs are considered heterodox or else the matter is under discussion.
This is a topic I am open minded about and invite you to more discussion to help me understand, like how essential are Ecumenical Councils in identifying Orthodoxy, right teaching. I invite you to another thread for this.

Quote
2. Were it up to you, you would unite all of the churches you named above based simply upon the fact that we all have a common faith in Christ, and personally speaking, you are an adherent of the Branch Theory.  Right?
I was talking about personal desires vs. my understanding of Orthodoxy. It's basically important for me to recognize Orthodoxy for what it is.
Branch theory is kind of tricky for me to accept because I think it is not accepted by EOs. Maybe there is some partial similarity to it sometimes, like in the fact that RCs, Anglicans, and OOs could in exceptional cases take communion in some EO churches whereas Presbyterians and Methodists don't.

Quote
I went to communion at a Coptic church once, but they denied me.

You tried to commune in a Coptic Church?
Yes. It was several years after becoming Orthodox. The importance to EOs of not intercommuning with OOs was not as clear to me at the time.

If you want to discuss my personal views, experiences, etc. about EOs-OOs, relationships, it's OK, but better for another thread.

Quote
I'm not asking you to decide whether or not our churches enter into communion based upon your desires.  I'm asking if you personally believe our Church to be Orthodox.  Are you saying here, "The Eastern Orthodox Church tells me you are not Orthodox, so, as much as I wish it were otherwise, the answer for me is no"? If so, that is perfectly fine.  Just please be clear about it and knock off the obfuscating.
...
So acceptance of the 7 councils as Ecumenical is for you a necessary component of Orthodoxy.  Right?
The EO Church to the best of my understanding generally says either you are heterodox or else that we are in dialogue, and meanwhile IIRC some serious EO theologians consider you Orthodox. So I am inviting you for a discussion on this question because our churches are in dialogue.

So for example I would want to ask you how important Ecumenical Councils should be in principle to identifying Orthodoxy.



Quote
I as the Joint EO-OO Statement says, fundamentally correct.

Acknowledging that the statement of faith produced by a council is not the same thing as deeming that council "fundamentally correct" in all of its aspects.
They said that the Council itself "could not be understood otherwise" than agreeing with already established orthodoxy, IIRC, and did not limit it to statement of faith.
Quote
I have owned various newts, salamanders, frogs, and toads over the years.

Quote
Amazing Facts About the Newt

    Newts have the ability to regenerate limbs, eyes, spinal cords, hearts, intestines, and upper and lower jaws!

https://onekind.org/animal/newt/
It's neat. Did you ever see that happen, Antonious?

Quote

Were you able to find homes for all of the babies?
Pet store + separating the parents solved it.
I like gerbils. :)
They just naturally make underground mazes. It's neat.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2017, 06:53:44 PM by rakovsky »
The ocean, impassable by men, and the world beyond it are directed by the same ordinances of the Master. ~ I Clement 20

Offline rakovsky

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Re: I wish these people were still posting
« Reply #230 on: March 09, 2017, 06:51:00 PM »

I also provided citations where
OO has stated Christ did not have two natures.
How deceptive and twisted. I wrote "NO OO has stated Christ did not have two natures" and you conveniently remove the most important part of my sentence as if it were my own quote.
I agree that you clearly wrote: "NO OO has stated Christ did not have two natures".

So I then provided citations where in fact OO has stated Christ did not have two natures contrary to your claim.

My intention was not to make it look like you were admitting that OOs teach Christ does not have two natures, since anyone can very easily check your passage in this thread. As far as I know, this is normal usage in English and quoting part of someone's sentence does not mean one is agreeing with another's whole sentence.

Example:
Alice: "I did not go to the store today."
Charlene: "Yes you did 'go to the store today.'"

If you want to continue discussing EO-OO issues with me or making claims of "deception", please do it on the thread I linked to.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2017, 07:11:38 PM by rakovsky »
The ocean, impassable by men, and the world beyond it are directed by the same ordinances of the Master. ~ I Clement 20

Offline Remnkemi

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Re: I wish these people were still posting
« Reply #231 on: March 09, 2017, 07:16:48 PM »

I also provided citations where
OO has stated Christ did not have two natures.
How deceptive and twisted. I wrote "NO OO has stated Christ did not have two natures" and you conveniently remove the most important part of my sentence as if it were my own quote.
I agree that you clearly wrote: "NO OO has stated Christ did not have two natures".

So I then provided citations where in fact OO has stated Christ did not have two natures contrary to your claim.

My intention was not to make it look like you were admitting that OOs teach Christ does not have two natures, since anyone can very easily check your passage in this thread. As far as I know, this is normal usage in English and quoting part of someone's sentence does not mean you are agreeing with their whole sentence.
If that were the case you simply could have written something like "Even though Remnkemi says "no OO denies Christ have two natures", I disagree because...." Partially quoting something to give the opposite of meaning of what was actually said is not normal usage in English.

I can't believe we're talking about English grammar now. Look at rule #1. That is the normal usage in English: word for word direct quotation. 

Offline rakovsky

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Re: I wish these people were still posting
« Reply #232 on: March 09, 2017, 07:28:41 PM »
If that were the case you simply could have written something like "Even though Remnkemi says "no OO denies Christ have two natures", I disagree because...." Partially quoting something to give the opposite of meaning of what was actually said is not normal usage in English.

I can't believe we're talking about English grammar now. Look at rule #1. That is the normal usage in English: word for word direct quotation.

Remnkemi:
You pointed to:
Quote
Correct: "I hope you will be here," he said.
Incorrect: He said that he "hoped I would be there." (The quotation marks are incorrect because hoped I would be there does not state the speaker's exact words.)
Notice the differences I put in bold above.
In my case, I did state "the speaker's exact words".
As shown in my above sentence, there is no grammar requirement in normal English that one must quote another person's entire sentence. That includes when one is disagreeing with them, as in the example I gave in the last message.

This is the second time I am asking you to please move your claim about my supposed pointless "deception" to the polemic section I linked you.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2017, 07:35:23 PM by rakovsky »
The ocean, impassable by men, and the world beyond it are directed by the same ordinances of the Master. ~ I Clement 20

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: I wish these people were still posting
« Reply #233 on: March 09, 2017, 07:44:16 PM »
Were it up to me, Antonious, I would use common faith in Christ-God and the Branch Theory to declare the OO, RC, ACOE, Anglican, and Lutheran Churches legitimate and have communion with them.

I went to communion at a Coptic church once, but they denied me.

Good.
Do you have pleasure in me personally being refused communion?

The non-Orthodox, for their own spiritual welfare, should not be communed unless they become Orthodox.  It's hard to reconcile "common faith in Christ-God and Branch Theory" with "Orthodoxy".  You may not even be fit to commune in your own Church with such beliefs, but that's for them to decide. 
I'm making a firm decision to stay with the Orthodox Church.

My point is you should try to fixate on something else. I suggest Christ.

Offline rakovsky

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Re: I wish these people were still posting
« Reply #234 on: March 09, 2017, 07:58:35 PM »
Were it up to me, Antonious, I would use common faith in Christ-God and the Branch Theory to declare the OO, RC, ACOE, Anglican, and Lutheran Churches legitimate and have communion with them.

I went to communion at a Coptic church once, but they denied me.

Good.
Do you have pleasure in me personally being refused communion?

The non-Orthodox, for their own spiritual welfare, should not be communed unless they become Orthodox.  It's hard to reconcile "common faith in Christ-God and Branch Theory" with "Orthodoxy".  You may not even be fit to commune in your own Church with such beliefs, but that's for them to decide.
It sounds like you are saying that since intercommunion based on common faith in Christ and Branch theory is appealing to me, that I am non-Orthodox and should not be communed, and this is why it's good Copts didn't commune me.

Do I have that right, Mor?
« Last Edit: March 09, 2017, 08:09:56 PM by rakovsky »
The ocean, impassable by men, and the world beyond it are directed by the same ordinances of the Master. ~ I Clement 20

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: I wish these people were still posting
« Reply #235 on: March 09, 2017, 08:12:01 PM »
1. You view the Oriental Orthodox Church in the same way that you view the Roman Catholics, the Assyrian Church of the East, the Anglicans, and the Lutherans.
Not quite, since eg. the ACOE doesn't accept Ephesus I AFAIK, and there are many differences between us and the other churches you listed.

But we're somewhere on the sliding scale of heterodoxy in your personal point of view, right?  Please note that I am asking explicitly for your personal point of view, not what the Eastern Orthodox Church teaches, because there doesn't seem to be a consensus within the Eastern Orthodox Church on the matter.  A number of the most respected theologians in your communion acknowledge that we are Orthodox, while others think that we're heterodox.  I am asking what you personally think.  Please stop hedging.

Quote
  In other words: heterodox.  Right?
In the EO Church, usually OOs are considered heterodox or else the matter is under discussion.

You're leaving out the fact that a number of highly respected Eastern Orthodox theologians acknowledge us as Orthodox.  Nonetheless, this is peripheral to my question.  I am asking what do you think?  Since you didn't even acknowledge that some of your leading theologians think we're Orthodox, I take it that is not an option for you.  So you think we're heterodox, right?  Please stop hedging and answer me directly, or whatever good will you've attempted to build up with me will be entirely eroded and we'll be right back to where we were a couple of days ago.  I'm already finding this exchange almost as frustrating as Remnkemi seems to be finding his exchange with you in this thread.

This is a topic I am open minded about and invite you to more discussion to help me understand, like how essential are Ecumenical Councils in identifying Orthodoxy, right teaching.

Suffice it to say, I agree with Mina, Iconodule, and Fr. Peter.  Accepting the Faith upheld by a given council is what is important.  Accepting the council itself - especially one which abused our Fathers in the Faith - is not a necessity.  In my view, the EO and the OO Churches could unite with the EO holding to 7 (or 9) councils and the OO holding to 3 so long as we agreed on the tenets of the Faith.

Quote
2. Were it up to you, you would unite all of the churches you named above based simply upon the fact that we all have a common faith in Christ, and personally speaking, you are an adherent of the Branch Theory.  Right?
I was talking about personal desires vs. my understanding of Orthodoxy. It's basically important for me to recognize Orthodoxy for what it is.

So then once again you weren't being sincere.  You don't really think that a shared faith in Christ is sufficient basis for communion.  You just tossed this out there as part of a good cop/bad cop thing.



"The Church is telling me NO...but my heart, my heart is telling me YESSS!!!"

Except it really isn't, because you don't actually believe that Christians should gloss over their doctrinal differences for the sake of unity.  The fact that you believe so is actually a good thing you should embrace.  The obfuscation and the shady tactics, however, are what makes having a productive, civil discussion with you such a trial, and what makes people eventually either abandon the discussion or end up telling you off.  Please, rakovsky, try answering a question in direct, simple terms for once.

Branch theory is kind of tricky for me to accept because I think it is not accepted by EOs. Maybe there is some partial similarity to it sometimes, like in the fact that RCs, Anglicans, and OOs could in exceptional cases take communion in some EO churches whereas Presbyterians and Methodists don't.

In your previous post, you indicated that it is something you wished you could implement.  Is this true, or was that another insincere, good cop (rakovsky)/bad cop (the EO Church) "I wish I could say you guys are Orthodox, but you just aren't..." kind of thing?

Quote
I went to communion at a Coptic church once, but they denied me.

You tried to commune in a Coptic Church?
Yes. It was several years after becoming Orthodox. The importance to EOs of not intercommuning with OOs was not as clear to me at the time.

Interesting.  So at the time, did you not realize that our churches were not in communion?  Had no one ever taught you?  Or were you taking it upon yourself to make a run at the chalice in one of our churches in spite of the status quo?

Quote
I'm not asking you to decide whether or not our churches enter into communion based upon your desires.  I'm asking if you personally believe our Church to be Orthodox.  Are you saying here, "The Eastern Orthodox Church tells me you are not Orthodox, so, as much as I wish it were otherwise, the answer for me is no"? If so, that is perfectly fine.  Just please be clear about it and knock off the obfuscating.
...
So acceptance of the 7 councils as Ecumenical is for you a necessary component of Orthodoxy.  Right?
The EO Church to the best of my understanding generally says either you are heterodox or else that we are in dialogue, and meanwhile IIRC some serious EO theologians consider you Orthodox. So I am inviting you for a discussion on this question because our churches are in dialogue.

This isn't an answer.  Do you consider us to be Orthodox?  Do you consider acceptance of the 7 councils to be a necessary component of the Orthodox Faith?  Are you - rakovsky - in agreement with:

A. Those EO theologians who think we are heterodox
B. Those EO theologians who think we are Orthodox
C. The jury is still out for you

So for example I would want to ask you how important Ecumenical Councils should be in principle to identifying Orthodoxy.

The Faith makes the Councils, not the other way around.  For example, if the Assyrian Church of the East were theoretically to embrace the Orthodox Faith as articulated by Ephesus - explicitly and in no uncertain terms - but declined to enumerate the Council itself among their list of councils considered "Ecumenical", I would be fine with our Church reestablishing communion with them.  I'm a fan of the St. Cyril of Alexandria/John of Antioch dynamic.

Quote
I as the Joint EO-OO Statement says, fundamentally correct.

Acknowledging that the statement of faith produced by a council is not the same thing as deeming that council "fundamentally correct" in all of its aspects.
They said that the Council itself "could not be understood otherwise" than agreeing with already established orthodoxy, IIRC, and did not limit it to statement of faith.

I think you're reading the document wrong.  What they seem to be saying to me is that the council should not be considered in isolation, but rather in light of the Faith of Ephesus I and the clarifications made at Constantinople II.  They are deliberately not saying anything about whether the council in its totality should be accepted, but rather are steering clear of that issue entirely, because they know that the Oriental Orthodox Church is never going to say that the council was right in deposing, exiling, and abusing St. Dioscoros.

Quote
Amazing Facts About the Newt

    Newts have the ability to regenerate limbs, eyes, spinal cords, hearts, intestines, and upper and lower jaws!

https://onekind.org/animal/newt/
It's neat. Did you ever see that happen, Antonious?

Never.  I was very careful never to injure my animals, and I consider those researchers who deliberately maim amphibians in order to study this ability to be cruel.

It's an important, interesting topic, so I am glad to discuss it with you in a thread dedicated to that.
In case you have a different understanding of the importance of councils or have counterpoints, I happily invite you to discuss them on another thread.
I invite you to another thread for this.
If you want to discuss my personal views, experiences, etc. about EOs-OOs, relationships, it's OK, but better for another thread.

No.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2017, 08:34:11 PM by Antonious Nikolas »
Worship is theology, so a church which brings Evangelical and Charismatic "praise & worship" into its corporate life is no longer Orthodox.  It is, by definition, heterodox.  Those "Orthodox" leaders who make theological arguments for the incorporation of heteropraxis into the life of the Church are heretics.

http://returntoorthodoxy.com/

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: I wish these people were still posting
« Reply #236 on: March 09, 2017, 08:15:36 PM »

I also provided citations where
OO has stated Christ did not have two natures.
How deceptive and twisted. I wrote "NO OO has stated Christ did not have two natures" and you conveniently remove the most important part of my sentence as if it were my own quote.
I agree that you clearly wrote: "NO OO has stated Christ did not have two natures".

So I then provided citations where in fact OO has stated Christ did not have two natures contrary to your claim.

My intention was not to make it look like you were admitting that OOs teach Christ does not have two natures, since anyone can very easily check your passage in this thread. As far as I know, this is normal usage in English and quoting part of someone's sentence does not mean you are agreeing with their whole sentence.
If that were the case you simply could have written something like "Even though Remnkemi says "no OO denies Christ have two natures", I disagree because...." Partially quoting something to give the opposite of meaning of what was actually said is not normal usage in English.

I can't believe we're talking about English grammar now. Look at rule #1. That is the normal usage in English: word for word direct quotation.

For some reason, rakovsky likes to preemptively declare the abnormal debate tactics he employs to be "normal".  He's done it to me several times.
Worship is theology, so a church which brings Evangelical and Charismatic "praise & worship" into its corporate life is no longer Orthodox.  It is, by definition, heterodox.  Those "Orthodox" leaders who make theological arguments for the incorporation of heteropraxis into the life of the Church are heretics.

http://returntoorthodoxy.com/

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: I wish these people were still posting
« Reply #237 on: March 09, 2017, 09:37:45 PM »
Were it up to me, Antonious, I would use common faith in Christ-God and the Branch Theory to declare the OO, RC, ACOE, Anglican, and Lutheran Churches legitimate and have communion with them.

I went to communion at a Coptic church once, but they denied me.

Good.
Do you have pleasure in me personally being refused communion?

The non-Orthodox, for their own spiritual welfare, should not be communed unless they become Orthodox.  It's hard to reconcile "common faith in Christ-God and Branch Theory" with "Orthodoxy".  You may not even be fit to commune in your own Church with such beliefs, but that's for them to decide.
It sounds like you are saying that since intercommunion based on common faith in Christ and Branch theory is appealing to me, that I am non-Orthodox and should not be communed, and this is why it's good Copts didn't commune me.

Do I have that right, Mor?

The positions you hold do not agree with our faith. 
I'm making a firm decision to stay with the Orthodox Church.

My point is you should try to fixate on something else. I suggest Christ.

Offline Iconodule

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Re: I wish these people were still posting
« Reply #238 on: March 09, 2017, 09:46:46 PM »
Were it up to me, Antonious, I would use common faith in Christ-God and the Branch Theory to declare the OO, RC, ACOE, Anglican, and Lutheran Churches legitimate and have communion with them.

I went to communion at a Coptic church once, but they denied me.

Good.
Do you have pleasure in me personally being refused communion?

The non-Orthodox, for their own spiritual welfare, should not be communed unless they become Orthodox.  It's hard to reconcile "common faith in Christ-God and Branch Theory" with "Orthodoxy".  You may not even be fit to commune in your own Church with such beliefs, but that's for them to decide.
It sounds like you are saying that since intercommunion based on common faith in Christ and Branch theory is appealing to me, that I am non-Orthodox and should not be communed, and this is why it's good Copts didn't commune me.

Do I have that right, Mor?

The positions you hold do not agree with our faith.

Also the "two hypostases" thing. I'm not sure you should be communing in EO churches either, Rakovsky.
Quote
But it had not been in Tess's power - nor is it in anybody's power - to feel the whole truth of golden opinions while it is possible to profit by them. She - and how many more - might have ironically said to God with Saint Augustine, "Thou hast counselled a better course than thou hast permitted."
Thomas Hardy, Tess of the D'Urbervilles

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: I wish these people were still posting
« Reply #239 on: March 09, 2017, 09:53:01 PM »
Were it up to me, Antonious, I would use common faith in Christ-God and the Branch Theory to declare the OO, RC, ACOE, Anglican, and Lutheran Churches legitimate and have communion with them.

I went to communion at a Coptic church once, but they denied me.

Good.
Do you have pleasure in me personally being refused communion?

The non-Orthodox, for their own spiritual welfare, should not be communed unless they become Orthodox.  It's hard to reconcile "common faith in Christ-God and Branch Theory" with "Orthodoxy".  You may not even be fit to commune in your own Church with such beliefs, but that's for them to decide.
It sounds like you are saying that since intercommunion based on common faith in Christ and Branch theory is appealing to me, that I am non-Orthodox and should not be communed, and this is why it's good Copts didn't commune me.

Do I have that right, Mor?

The positions you hold do not agree with our faith.

Also the "two hypostases" thing. I'm not sure you should be communing in EO churches either, Rakovsky.

And yet - despite the heterodox positions to which rakovsky as an individual might hold - I still view the communion to which he belongs as an Orthodox communion.
Worship is theology, so a church which brings Evangelical and Charismatic "praise & worship" into its corporate life is no longer Orthodox.  It is, by definition, heterodox.  Those "Orthodox" leaders who make theological arguments for the incorporation of heteropraxis into the life of the Church are heretics.

http://returntoorthodoxy.com/

Offline Iconodule

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Re: I wish these people were still posting
« Reply #240 on: March 09, 2017, 10:06:55 PM »
I appreciate that. And I will not hold wgw against you.
Quote
But it had not been in Tess's power - nor is it in anybody's power - to feel the whole truth of golden opinions while it is possible to profit by them. She - and how many more - might have ironically said to God with Saint Augustine, "Thou hast counselled a better course than thou hast permitted."
Thomas Hardy, Tess of the D'Urbervilles

Offline Opus118

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Re: I wish these people were still posting
« Reply #241 on: March 09, 2017, 10:16:01 PM »
Given ZZ's moderational directive in reply 174, it would be nice to move replies 179-180, 183-199, 201-212, 214, 218-220, and 222-224 into a thread of its own. I am not a big fan of commandeering this particular thread topic.
"Mi tío es enfermo, pero la carretera es verde!" - old Chilean saying

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: I wish these people were still posting
« Reply #242 on: March 09, 2017, 10:17:25 PM »
I appreciate that. And I will not hold wgw against you.

Worship is theology, so a church which brings Evangelical and Charismatic "praise & worship" into its corporate life is no longer Orthodox.  It is, by definition, heterodox.  Those "Orthodox" leaders who make theological arguments for the incorporation of heteropraxis into the life of the Church are heretics.

http://returntoorthodoxy.com/

Offline rakovsky

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Re: I wish these people were still posting
« Reply #243 on: March 09, 2017, 10:47:58 PM »
I went to communion at a Coptic church once, but they denied me.

Good.

The non-Orthodox, for their own spiritual welfare, should not be communed unless they become Orthodox.  It's hard to reconcile "common faith in Christ-God and Branch Theory" with "Orthodoxy".  You may not even be fit to commune in your own Church with such beliefs, but that's for them to decide.

The positions you hold do not agree with our faith.

Also the "two hypostases" thing. I'm not sure you should be communing in EO churches either, Rakovsky.
Dear Mor Ephrem and Iconodule,

What I have said was that branch theory is appealing to me, and that I am open to considering someone conceiving of Christ's two identities as two persons in theory only, just as I am open to considering OOs as Orthodox. I don't particularly adhere to any of those positions, since they are  not clear to me and since my Church doesn't teach tnem.

Please do not make gratuitous personal attacks on me, adding in with pleasure that it's "Good" that I do not get communion in your OO Church when I wanted to and "I'm not sure you should be communing in EO churches either".

Your position is that rejecting the Fourth to Seventh Ecumenical Councils is not an essential barrier to identifying one as Orthodox. I haven't made the same personal commentary about you for it.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2017, 10:52:07 PM by rakovsky »
The ocean, impassable by men, and the world beyond it are directed by the same ordinances of the Master. ~ I Clement 20

Offline rakovsky

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Re: I wish these people were still posting
« Reply #244 on: March 09, 2017, 11:02:48 PM »
So then once again you weren't being sincere. 

I am glad to discuss it with you in a thread dedicated to that.
I happily invite you to discuss them on another thread.
I invite you to another thread for this.
better for another thread.

No.
Antonious,
I enjoyed talking with you about EO-OO issues, but unfortunately now I have to agree with what Opus said.
This thread built up enough toxic personal attacks that the talk is better for another thread.
You: I'm "not sincere". Remnkemi: I'm "Deceptive". Mor: it's "Good" Copts stopped me from communion.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2017, 11:28:03 PM by rakovsky »
The ocean, impassable by men, and the world beyond it are directed by the same ordinances of the Master. ~ I Clement 20

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: I wish these people were still posting
« Reply #245 on: March 10, 2017, 01:03:09 AM »
I went to communion at a Coptic church once, but they denied me.

Good.

The non-Orthodox, for their own spiritual welfare, should not be communed unless they become Orthodox.  It's hard to reconcile "common faith in Christ-God and Branch Theory" with "Orthodoxy".  You may not even be fit to commune in your own Church with such beliefs, but that's for them to decide.

The positions you hold do not agree with our faith.

Also the "two hypostases" thing. I'm not sure you should be communing in EO churches either, Rakovsky.
Dear Mor Ephrem and Iconodule,

What I have said was that branch theory is appealing to me, and that I am open to considering someone conceiving of Christ's two identities as two persons in theory only, just as I am open to considering OOs as Orthodox. I don't particularly adhere to any of those positions, since they are  not clear to me and since my Church doesn't teach tnem.

Please do not make gratuitous personal attacks on me, adding in with pleasure that it's "Good" that I do not get communion in your OO Church when I wanted to and "I'm not sure you should be communing in EO churches either".

Your position is that rejecting the Fourth to Seventh Ecumenical Councils is not an essential barrier to identifying one as Orthodox. I haven't made the same personal commentary about you for it.

Hi rakovsky,

It seems you're ^playing around with the quotes so as to conceal the truth.  You have deleted your comments while preserving the URLs pointing back to the original posts.  For the record:   

Were it up to me, Antonious, I would use common faith in Christ-God and the Branch Theory to declare the OO, RC, ACOE, Anglican, and Lutheran Churches legitimate and have communion with them.

I went to communion at a Coptic church once, but they denied me.

Good.
Do you have pleasure in me personally being refused communion?

It sounds like you are saying that since intercommunion based on common faith in Christ and Branch theory is appealing to me, that I am non-Orthodox and should not be communed, and this is why it's good Copts didn't commune me.

Do I have that right, Mor?

Since my comments are reproduced above, I will limit myself to the following observations:

I did not comment approvingly about your rejection at the chalice in isolation.  I specifically highlighted heterodox beliefs you presented as your own, beliefs which put you at odds at least with the Church from whom you sought Communion (if not your own), followed by your experience of being rejected. 

You invited commentary by asking me a question that besmirched my integrity by assUming my intentions were ignoble.  So I clarified with the subsequent comments (above), which in no way constitute a personal attack.  Rather, they are simply orthodox Orthodox praxis applied to a situation you brought up.   
I'm making a firm decision to stay with the Orthodox Church.

My point is you should try to fixate on something else. I suggest Christ.

Offline rakovsky

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Re: I wish these people were still posting
« Reply #246 on: March 10, 2017, 05:38:46 AM »
I specifically highlighted heterodox beliefs you presented as your own, beliefs which put you at odds at least with the Church from whom you sought Communion, followed by your experience of being rejected.

they are simply orthodox Orthodox praxis applied to a situation you brought up.
There was no need for you to come in and do that, Mor.
I told you that branch theory would have been my preference, not that it was my belief. I said that my obstacle to believing it was the contrary Orthodox teaching. According to Orthodoxy, branch theory does not work because you cannot have legitimate apostolic succession through those outside the Church that is in communion with itself. Heretics and schismatics don't count.
Since that was not my belief and I recognized the Orthodox contrary teaching, that is not "simply" correct "Orthodox praxis applied" to my situation.
 
Quote
I did not comment approvingly about your rejection at the chalice in isolation. ....

The two issues were not related either. The Copts did not reject me for saying "branch theory would have been my preference, although I don't adhere to it", but for being EO.

If ecumenist teachings appeal to you that our Churches do not accept as Orthodox, be they about how much authority one should give a Council if it is Ecumenical or about other such topics, do I "simply apply orthodox Orthodox praxis" expressing approval of your unrelated unwanted personal church situations?

There is no need to make gratuitous negative personal commentary about me.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2017, 06:08:00 AM by rakovsky »
The ocean, impassable by men, and the world beyond it are directed by the same ordinances of the Master. ~ I Clement 20

Offline Iconodule

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Re: I wish these people were still posting
« Reply #247 on: March 10, 2017, 07:18:34 AM »
Your position is that rejecting the Fourth to Seventh Ecumenical Councils is not an essential barrier to identifying one as Orthodox. I haven't made the same personal commentary about you for it.

Non-seven-council-fundamentalism is not a condemned heresy in my church. Nestorianism is.
Quote
But it had not been in Tess's power - nor is it in anybody's power - to feel the whole truth of golden opinions while it is possible to profit by them. She - and how many more - might have ironically said to God with Saint Augustine, "Thou hast counselled a better course than thou hast permitted."
Thomas Hardy, Tess of the D'Urbervilles

Offline rakovsky

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Re: I wish these people were still posting
« Reply #248 on: March 10, 2017, 07:23:16 AM »
Non-seven-council-fundamentalism is not a condemned heresy in my church. Nestorianism is.
Iconodule,
There is no need for your comments about how you are "not sure" I should be getting communed.

Please do not continue promoting these personal attacks.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2017, 07:29:39 AM by rakovsky »
The ocean, impassable by men, and the world beyond it are directed by the same ordinances of the Master. ~ I Clement 20

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: I wish these people were still posting
« Reply #249 on: March 10, 2017, 08:48:58 AM »
So then once again you weren't being sincere. 

I am glad to discuss it with you in a thread dedicated to that.
I happily invite you to discuss them on another thread.
I invite you to another thread for this.
better for another thread.

No.
Antonious,
I enjoyed talking with you about EO-OO issues, but unfortunately now I have to agree with what Opus said.
This thread built up enough toxic personal attacks that the talk is better for another thread.
You: I'm "not sincere". Remnkemi: I'm "Deceptive". Mor: it's "Good" Copts stopped me from communion.

And yet you are willing to continue replying at length to all and sundry, refusing only to answer the simple and direct questions I asked you in post # 235.  This is very telling as it pertains to your willingness and desire to enter into polite and constructive discussion with me.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2017, 08:50:04 AM by Antonious Nikolas »
Worship is theology, so a church which brings Evangelical and Charismatic "praise & worship" into its corporate life is no longer Orthodox.  It is, by definition, heterodox.  Those "Orthodox" leaders who make theological arguments for the incorporation of heteropraxis into the life of the Church are heretics.

http://returntoorthodoxy.com/

Offline Fr. George

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Re: I wish these people were still posting
« Reply #250 on: March 10, 2017, 09:51:10 AM »
I went to communion at a Coptic church once, but they denied me.

Good.

The non-Orthodox, for their own spiritual welfare, should not be communed unless they become Orthodox.  It's hard to reconcile "common faith in Christ-God and Branch Theory" with "Orthodoxy".  You may not even be fit to commune in your own Church with such beliefs, but that's for them to decide.

The positions you hold do not agree with our faith.

Also the "two hypostases" thing. I'm not sure you should be communing in EO churches either, Rakovsky.
Dear Mor Ephrem and Iconodule,

What I have said was that branch theory is appealing to me, and that I am open to considering someone conceiving of Christ's two identities as two persons in theory only, just as I am open to considering OOs as Orthodox. I don't particularly adhere to any of those positions, since they are  not clear to me and since my Church doesn't teach tnem.

Please do not make gratuitous personal attacks on me, adding in with pleasure that it's "Good" that I do not get communion in your OO Church when I wanted to and "I'm not sure you should be communing in EO churches either".

Your position is that rejecting the Fourth to Seventh Ecumenical Councils is not an essential barrier to identifying one as Orthodox. I haven't made the same personal commentary about you for it.

The Church is not a restaurant, where you are entitled to be served because you simply (a) desire what's on the menu, (b) can afford it, and (c) are a polite patron.  There is an element of acceptance of community standards and theology, and by those standards you, as EO, should have been denied communion in an OO Church.  That any of us would applaud that step is less about you and more about that particular priest being true to the standards of his Church.

Frankly, the fact that you approached the chalice in an OO Church while being EO is a potential cause of your being denied communion in the EO Church as well.  You don't have an appreciation for why we practice so-called "closed communion" in Orthodox Churches, why it's important, and why it's good.

What will be harmful for your spiritual condition is if you continue to desire to treat communion as a commodity, instead of a living and ongoing relationship with your Lord that is complicated, deep, and requires a lot from you.  But that's enough of that.

You also are seeming to have a hard time differentiating "personal attacks" and attacks on the style and substance of your arguments.  The comments thus far have generally been critical of your method of argumentation, dismissal of dissonant facts, and seeming manipulation of quotes and perspectives - none of these constitute a personal attack, but are rather being rightfully critical of how you discuss and debate.  Stick to making an honest and earnest defense of that, or even acknowledging the good points made and endeavoring to change, rather than insisting that any comment made against your posts is automatically "personal" and then shutting down reasonable conversation.
I don't typically presume to speak for Mor
You can presume to speak for Mor.   

Offline Iconodule

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Re: I wish these people were still posting
« Reply #251 on: March 10, 2017, 10:08:58 AM »
Non-seven-council-fundamentalism is not a condemned heresy in my church. Nestorianism is.
Iconodule,
There is no need for your comments about how you are "not sure" I should be getting communed.

Please do not continue promoting these personal attacks.

It's not a personal attack, just an observation that someone who is inclined toward Nestorianism should maybe not commune in an Orthodox church. Your talk of "two hypostases", your evasiveness in owning the O Only Begotten Son, your readiness to defend the theology of Theodore of Mopsuestia, while being totally unwilling to extend a charitable reading to Abp Petrosyan, are very suggestive of such an inclination on your part.

Also, when you stubbornly misrepresent, mutilate, and twist people's words- as you have done on this and other threads- and continually make sly jabs at their faith, people tend to take it personally. Get used to it.
Quote
But it had not been in Tess's power - nor is it in anybody's power - to feel the whole truth of golden opinions while it is possible to profit by them. She - and how many more - might have ironically said to God with Saint Augustine, "Thou hast counselled a better course than thou hast permitted."
Thomas Hardy, Tess of the D'Urbervilles

Offline Alpo

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Re: I wish these people were still posting
« Reply #252 on: March 10, 2017, 10:25:27 AM »
I miss stashko.
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 19:34

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: I wish these people were still posting
« Reply #253 on: March 10, 2017, 10:35:16 AM »
Also, when you stubbornly misrepresent, mutilate, and twist people's words- as you have done on this and other threads- and continually make sly jabs at their faith, people tend to take it personally. Get used to it.

Please pay special attention to this post rakovsky.  I hope you have seen the fruit of employing this tactic against me, Remnkemi, and others and how doing so has poisoned our attempts at peaceful dialogue with you and nearly made such impossible.  In short, brother, you are not as slick as you think you are.  What you are doing has registered, and it has registered with more than one person.  Ever heard the phrase, "Win the argument, lose the soul"?  Ask yourself what your true objectives are in dialoguing with us and ask yourself if the tactics you are employing are helping you to achieve those goals.  If the goal is to alienate and antagonize us through subtle goading, while perhaps proving to an audience on oc.net that our communion is indeed heterodox in spite of your wishes and best intentions: Mission Accomplished!  If, on the other hand, your goal is productive dialogue and true mutual understanding, that doesn't seem to be working out so well.  Dig me?
« Last Edit: March 10, 2017, 10:43:22 AM by Antonious Nikolas »
Worship is theology, so a church which brings Evangelical and Charismatic "praise & worship" into its corporate life is no longer Orthodox.  It is, by definition, heterodox.  Those "Orthodox" leaders who make theological arguments for the incorporation of heteropraxis into the life of the Church are heretics.

http://returntoorthodoxy.com/

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: I wish these people were still posting
« Reply #254 on: March 10, 2017, 02:34:16 PM »
I specifically highlighted heterodox beliefs you presented as your own, beliefs which put you at odds at least with the Church from whom you sought Communion, followed by your experience of being rejected.

they are simply orthodox Orthodox praxis applied to a situation you brought up.
There was no need for you to come in and do that, Mor.

There was no need for you to invite commentary by presuming ill will and trying to set up an attack on yourself by such provocations, rakovsky.

As to the rest, see Fr George's post.  Since he's not an Armenian bishop, I'm sure you'll take him seriously. 
I'm making a firm decision to stay with the Orthodox Church.

My point is you should try to fixate on something else. I suggest Christ.