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Author Topic: Writings of the Heresiarch Apollinarius?  (Read 1668 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: July 22, 2011, 11:38:41 PM »

Yesterday I read St Gregory the Theologian's letters on the Apollinarian controversies, and it sparked my interest. Can anyone direct to the writings of Apollinarius, the heresiarch who denied Christ's complete humanity?

Thank you and God bless you all,
Severian
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« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2011, 01:01:55 AM »

Yesterday I read St Gregory the Theologian's letters on the Apollinarian controversies, and it sparked my interest. Can anyone direct to the writings of Apollinarius, the heresiarch who denied Christ's complete humanity?

Thank you and God bless you all,
Severian


Now here is a person who knows their terminology.
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« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2011, 02:25:29 AM »

What's the difference between Apollinarius, and Apollonius of Tyanica?  I know there was controversy around him too, as he was supposedly able to do many of the same things Jesus did (and even went to India to learn from some yogis) -- or that's what they say anyways.
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« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2011, 10:55:42 AM »

Yesterday I read St Gregory the Theologian's letters on the Apollinarian controversies, and it sparked my interest. Can anyone direct to the writings of Apollinarius, the heresiarch who denied Christ's complete humanity?

Thank you and God bless you all,
Severian

Let me also request this. I've recently run into some seminary students at a Baptist seminary who are convinced that Jesus' mind was divine and only His body was human. I appealed to the Fathers, but of course was met with a sola scriptura, "but where in Scripture does it say that?!" (of course you can never turn this question back on them!)

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« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2011, 11:19:53 AM »

Let me also request this. I've recently run into some seminary students at a Baptist seminary who are convinced that Jesus' mind was divine and only His body was human. I appealed to the Fathers, but of course was met with a sola scriptura, "but where in Scripture does it say that?!" (of course you can never turn this question back on them!)

John 1:14

The Word became flesh.

Period.

Became means became.

Not was joined with.

Not put on like a garment that could be taken off because it is not part of the person.

Not just looked like.

The Word became flesh. The same Word that was with God, the same Word that was God, the same Word through wich everything was made that was made and without Him nothing was made that was made, identifying that same Word as the God Who created heaven and earth, that Word became flesh. Not kinda, not sorta, not partially, not allegorically, not as a parable, did. I am by no means a "bible literalist" (I just don't believe scripture was given for the purpose of teaching science, so I try not to enter or take any "side" in a debate concerning scripture and science), but that Word literally and historically became flesh in the most literal sense anyone could possibly understand that statement.

Please forgive me if this came across as being anything less than charitable, I only mean to make sure to emphasize the point (and it's a pretty important one) conveyed and hope it helps.
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« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2011, 12:31:47 PM »

Let me also request this. I've recently run into some seminary students at a Baptist seminary who are convinced that Jesus' mind was divine and only His body was human. I appealed to the Fathers, but of course was met with a sola scriptura, "but where in Scripture does it say that?!" (of course you can never turn this question back on them!)

John 1:14

The Word became flesh.

Period.

Became means became.

Not was joined with.

Not put on like a garment that could be taken off because it is not part of the person.

Not just looked like.

The Word became flesh. The same Word that was with God, the same Word that was God, the same Word through wich everything was made that was made and without Him nothing was made that was made, identifying that same Word as the God Who created heaven and earth, that Word became flesh. Not kinda, not sorta, not partially, not allegorically, not as a parable, did. I am by no means a "bible literalist" (I just don't believe scripture was given for the purpose of teaching science, so I try not to enter or take any "side" in a debate concerning scripture and science), but that Word literally and historically became flesh in the most literal sense anyone could possibly understand that statement.

Please forgive me if this came across as being anything less than charitable, I only mean to make sure to emphasize the point (and it's a pretty important one) conveyed and hope it helps.

Well of course I agree with you 100%, and I used your reasoning. The problem I encountered was they said, "Well it says flesh, not spirit!" Hence the problem with Biblical literalists.

I guess there's not much one can do in such a case.
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« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2011, 12:33:54 PM »


Let me also request this. I've recently run into some seminary students at a Baptist seminary who are convinced that Jesus' mind was divine and only His body was human. I appealed to the Fathers, but of course was met with a sola scriptura, "but where in Scripture does it say that?!" (of course you can never turn this question back on them!)


Give them this scripture to ponder:
"But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father."~Mark 13:32
This demonstrates that, in accordance with his complete humanity, our Lord was ignorant. Yet in his divinity he was omniscient. I've said it before and I'll say it again, Protestants downplay Christ's humanity.
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« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2011, 12:49:02 PM »


Let me also request this. I've recently run into some seminary students at a Baptist seminary who are convinced that Jesus' mind was divine and only His body was human. I appealed to the Fathers, but of course was met with a sola scriptura, "but where in Scripture does it say that?!" (of course you can never turn this question back on them!)


Give them this scripture to ponder:
"But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father."~Mark 13:32
This demonstrates that, in accordance with his complete humanity, our Lord was ignorant. Yet in his divinity he was omniscient. I've said it before and I'll say it again, Protestants downplay Christ's humanity.
My priest, Very Rev. Patrick Henry Reardon, has a book coming on on that very issue, that he was asked to write by IIRC Thomas Nelson Press, or some similar Protestant press.
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« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2011, 01:19:00 PM »

Yesterday I read St Gregory the Theologian's letters on the Apollinarian controversies, and it sparked my interest. Can anyone direct to the writings of Apollinarius, the heresiarch who denied Christ's complete humanity?

Thank you and God bless you all,
Severian

Let me also request this. I've recently run into some seminary students at a Baptist seminary who are convinced that Jesus' mind was divine and only His body was human. I appealed to the Fathers, but of course was met with a sola scriptura, "but where in Scripture does it say that?!" (of course you can never turn this question back on them!)


Acts 20:28 "Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers [i.e. bishops], to feed the church of God, which He hath purchased with His Own blood."

Does a mind have blood? 

Can't be refering to the Holy Ghost "Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself: handle Me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see Me have." Luke 24:39. 

Can't be the Father "for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but My Father which is in heaven." Matthew 16:17. 

That leaves only "the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father)." 

If we see He had "flesh and bones" as He "was made flesh" and therefore "beheld His glordy" such that, as He said "And He that seeth Me seeth Him that sent Me," (John 12:45), and "he that hath seen Me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?" (John 14:9), and prayed "Father, I will that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am; that they may behold My glory, which Thou hast given Me: for Thou lovedst Me before the foundation of the world" (John 17:24), then that glory must be in the flesh and blood, and not just the mind.  Or did He have flesh and blood before the foundation of the world?

And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.  I John 4:3.



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« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2011, 01:21:18 PM »

My priest, Very Rev. Patrick Henry Reardon, has a book coming on on that very issue, that he was asked to write by IIRC Thomas Nelson Press, or some similar Protestant press.
As soon as it comes out, tell me the book's name. I would love to buy it & read it.

Thanks and God bless,
Severian
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« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2011, 01:24:29 PM »


Well of course I agree with you 100%, and I used your reasoning. The problem I encountered was they said, "Well it says flesh, not spirit!" Hence the problem with Biblical literalists.

I guess there's not much one can do in such a case.
"Then [Christ] said to them, “My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me.”~Matthew 26:38
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« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2011, 01:27:42 PM »

What's the difference between Apollinarius, and Apollonius of Tyanica?  I know there was controversy around him too, as he was supposedly able to do many of the same things Jesus did (and even went to India to learn from some yogis) -- or that's what they say anyways.
Here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollonius_of_Tyana

Of course don't trust Wikipedia 100%  Wink

God bless,
Severian
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« Reply #12 on: July 23, 2011, 02:38:35 PM »

My priest, Very Rev. Patrick Henry Reardon, has a book coming on on that very issue, that he was asked to write by IIRC Thomas Nelson Press, or some similar Protestant press.
As soon as it comes out, tell me the book's name. I would love to buy it & read it.

Thanks and God bless,
Severian

Ditto.

To all others listing Scriptures, again, I appreciate it and know these Scriptures...but I'm dealing with a very difficult breed of Protestants. Smiley

Any Scripture I give will simply be proof-texted. They do the same thing with their Calvinism.
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« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2011, 03:12:02 PM »

Well of course I agree with you 100%, and I used your reasoning. The problem I encountered was they said, "Well it says flesh, not spirit!" Hence the problem with Biblical literalists.

I guess there's not much one can do in such a case.

Oh, I get it, they admit that the Word took on a human body, but no human spirit.

Did they say "why" it was so important for Christ to have a human body but not a human spirit?
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« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2011, 03:18:18 PM »

Well of course I agree with you 100%, and I used your reasoning. The problem I encountered was they said, "Well it says flesh, not spirit!" Hence the problem with Biblical literalists.

I guess there's not much one can do in such a case.

Oh, I get it, they admit that the Word took on a human body, but no human spirit.

Did they say "why" it was so important for Christ to have a human body but not a human spirit?

"Because that just doesn't make any sense! Where was His Divine nature if His soul is human to?!"

The result of attempting to rationalize God.

One has to be willing to accept paradox - which requires humility - before one can even begin to discuss the Holy mystery of the Incarnation.
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« Reply #15 on: July 23, 2011, 03:57:13 PM »


"Because that just doesn't make any sense! Where was His Divine nature if His soul is human to?!"

The result of attempting to rationalize God.

One has to be willing to accept paradox - which requires humility - before one can even begin to discuss the Holy mystery of the Incarnation.
[/quote]

Well, Christ raises up and restores that which we have in Common with Him. It was by partaking of our flesh that He is able to raise up our flesh (Phil 3:21). If He did not share in our spirit, then how does He restore it?

One person with everything that properly belongs to both natures.

1 Tim 2:5 calls Christ a "man", which according to Genesis is both body and spirit. Also Heb 2:11 and 2:17 point to a necessity for Him to be in "all things" like the bretheren.
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« Reply #16 on: July 23, 2011, 04:25:15 PM »

Quote
"Because that just doesn't make any sense! Where was His Divine nature if His soul is human to?!"

The result of attempting to rationalize God.

One has to be willing to accept paradox - which requires humility - before one can even begin to discuss the Holy mystery of the Incarnation.

Well, Christ raises up and restores that which we have in Common with Him. It was by partaking of our flesh that He is able to raise up our flesh (Phil 3:21). If He did not share in our spirit, then how does He restore it?

One person with everything that properly belongs to both natures.

1 Tim 2:5 calls Christ a "man", which according to Genesis is both body and spirit. Also Heb 2:11 and 2:17 point to a necessity for Him to be in "all things" like the bretheren.
Precisely! That's the exact reasoning the Fathers use.
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« Reply #17 on: July 23, 2011, 04:26:38 PM »

So if you show them scriptures where it explicitly says that Christ has a human soul, how do they react? Besides the 'where was his divine nature' objection.
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« Reply #18 on: July 23, 2011, 04:30:12 PM »

"And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost."~Luke 23:46

I know Protestants proof-text Scriptures that they don't like, but for me personally, this is more than enough to convince me that our Lord had a human spirit.
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« Reply #19 on: July 23, 2011, 04:33:24 PM »

"Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know"~Acts 2:22

Scripture testifies that our Lord was God both and man. As I have said, I know that Protestants distort verses that disagree with their theology, but I personally fail to see how one can read the scriptures and not conclude that our Lord was/is fully human.
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« Reply #20 on: July 23, 2011, 04:37:24 PM »

So if you show them scriptures where it explicitly says that Christ has a human soul, how do they react? Besides the 'where was his divine nature' objection.

That what I'm saying isn't the "common interpretation" and that it sounds too Catholic.

Essentially it's a bunch of sola scriptura mixed up with "Romophobia;" if it's not "word for word" and/or if it sounds like Roman Catholic doctrine, then it's suspect or wrong.
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« Reply #21 on: July 23, 2011, 04:39:22 PM »

So if you show them scriptures where it explicitly says that Christ has a human soul, how do they react? Besides the 'where was his divine nature' objection.

That what I'm saying isn't the "common interpretation" and that it sounds too Catholic.

Essentially it's a bunch of sola scriptura mixed up with "Romophobia;" if it's not "word for word" and/or if it sounds like Roman Catholic doctrine, then it's suspect or wrong.
*Sigh* Well that's close-minded biblical literalism for ya. What I find strange is that most Protestants I have met do confess our Lord to perfect and complete in both his human & divine natures.
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« Reply #22 on: July 23, 2011, 04:42:31 PM »

So if you show them scriptures where it explicitly says that Christ has a human soul, how do they react? Besides the 'where was his divine nature' objection.

That what I'm saying isn't the "common interpretation" and that it sounds too Catholic.

Essentially it's a bunch of sola scriptura mixed up with "Romophobia;" if it's not "word for word" and/or if it sounds like Roman Catholic doctrine, then it's suspect or wrong.
*Sigh* Well that's close-minded biblical literalism for ya. What I find strange is that most Protestants I have met do confess our Lord to perfect and complete in both his natures.

Agreed and that's what I've always been raised to believe...however...

What's going on in many SBC seminaries, what many professors are unaware of or don't want to recognize, is there's a growing Reformed movement among their students. In this Reformed movement they're trending towards Barth's Neo-orthodoxy, yet keeping an evangelical flavor to what they believe. Essentially and ironically, they're taking what was basically an existentialist movement within Protestantism and turning it into a rationalistic movement; everything must be rationally explained, mystery is a cop-out, paradoxes don't exist, etc.

This is happening among the future leaders in the denomination. It was seeing this happen a few years ago that sparked my inquiry into Orthodoxy...
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« Reply #23 on: July 24, 2011, 12:34:16 AM »


Scripture testifies that our Lord was God both and man. 
My mistake, what I meant to say was: "both God and man".
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« Reply #24 on: July 24, 2011, 12:35:10 AM »


Agreed and that's what I've always been raised to believe...however...

What's going on in many SBC seminaries, what many professors are unaware of or don't want to recognize, is there's a growing Reformed movement among their students. In this Reformed movement they're trending towards Barth's Neo-orthodoxy, yet keeping an evangelical flavor to what they believe. Essentially and ironically, they're taking what was basically an existentialist movement within Protestantism and turning it into a rationalistic movement; everything must be rationally explained, mystery is a cop-out, paradoxes don't exist, etc.

This is happening among the future leaders in the denomination. It was seeing this happen a few years ago that sparked my inquiry into Orthodoxy...
God bless you on your way to Orthodoxy.

Peace and blessings,
Severian
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« Reply #25 on: July 24, 2011, 04:06:34 PM »

Let me also request this. I've recently run into some seminary students at a Baptist seminary who are convinced that Jesus' mind was divine and only His body was human. I appealed to the Fathers, but of course was met with a sola scriptura, "but where in Scripture does it say that?!" (of course you can never turn this question back on them!)

John 1:14

The Word became flesh.

Period.

Became means became.

Not was joined with.

Not put on like a garment that could be taken off because it is not part of the person.

Not just looked like.

The Word became flesh. The same Word that was with God, the same Word that was God, the same Word through wich everything was made that was made and without Him nothing was made that was made, identifying that same Word as the God Who created heaven and earth, that Word became flesh. Not kinda, not sorta, not partially, not allegorically, not as a parable, did. I am by no means a "bible literalist" (I just don't believe scripture was given for the purpose of teaching science, so I try not to enter or take any "side" in a debate concerning scripture and science), but that Word literally and historically became flesh in the most literal sense anyone could possibly understand that statement.

Please forgive me if this came across as being anything less than charitable, I only mean to make sure to emphasize the point (and it's a pretty important one) conveyed and hope it helps.

Well of course I agree with you 100%, and I used your reasoning. The problem I encountered was they said, "Well it says flesh, not spirit!" Hence the problem with Biblical literalists.

I guess there's not much one can do in such a case.

Silly Orthodox, don't you know that "The Word became flesh" means that the Word became a dead body?

 Grin
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« Reply #26 on: July 24, 2011, 04:14:35 PM »

I just don't know how Protestants can believe Christ to be the savior and the second Adam and yet deny his true humanity by making him devoid of a soul/spirit.

St Severus of Antioch says:
"He fought with the second Adam who is Christ, and found him to be God and man at the same time; and he won a just victory over him; and henceforth we confidently sing songs of praise for his victory over death and say, «Where is thy victory, death? and where is thy sting, Sheol?» "

The second Adam had to be both God and man to redeem us and trample the evil one's dominion.
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« Reply #27 on: July 30, 2011, 10:24:55 AM »

My priest, Very Rev. Patrick Henry Reardon, has a book coming on on that very issue, that he was asked to write by IIRC Thomas Nelson Press, or some similar Protestant press.
As soon as it comes out, tell me the book's name. I would love to buy it & read it.

Thanks and God bless,
Severian
"The Jesus we missed" He didn't pick the title, and didn't like it.  He talks about that here
http://ancientfaith.com/specials/aoc_2011/western_rite
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« Reply #28 on: July 30, 2011, 10:50:08 AM »

My priest, Very Rev. Patrick Henry Reardon, has a book coming on on that very issue, that he was asked to write by IIRC Thomas Nelson Press, or some similar Protestant press.
As soon as it comes out, tell me the book's name. I would love to buy it & read it.

Thanks and God bless,
Severian
"The Jesus we missed" He didn't pick the title, and didn't like it.  He talks about that here
http://ancientfaith.com/specials/aoc_2011/western_rite
Great!
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« Reply #29 on: September 03, 2011, 12:51:01 PM »

Not to resurrect such an old thread, but can anyone direct me to Apollinarius' writings?
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« Reply #30 on: September 03, 2011, 01:01:00 PM »

What I find strange is that most Protestants I have met do confess our Lord to perfect and complete in both his human & divine natures.
Yeah. Keep taking to them and the Nestorianism comes out really fast though.  laugh
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« Reply #31 on: September 04, 2011, 11:39:05 PM »

What I find strange is that most Protestants I have met do confess our Lord to perfect and complete in both his human & divine natures.
Yeah. Keep taking to them and the Nestorianism comes out really fast though.  laugh

Yes, you can never trust them when they say they hold to the same christological definitions as we do: they say one thing and mean another.
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« Reply #32 on: September 05, 2011, 05:44:02 AM »

Yes, you can never trust them when they say they hold to the same christological definitions as we do: they say one thing and mean another.
Ugh! It gives me shivers when I hear some of them say things like "the human nature was crucified and the divine performed miracles". As someone whose tradition is deeply rooted in Cyrilline Christology, this sort of language makes me absolutely cringe.
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« Reply #33 on: October 08, 2011, 11:31:50 PM »

Not to resurrect such an old thread, but can anyone direct me to Apollinarius' writings?
I'll try one more time, I guess... Tongue
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« Reply #34 on: October 17, 2011, 05:23:12 PM »

Not to resurrect such an old thread, but can anyone direct me to Apollinarius' writings?
I'll try one more time, I guess... Tongue
Seriously! Angry
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« Reply #35 on: December 12, 2011, 12:52:55 AM »

My priest, Very Rev. Patrick Henry Reardon, has a book coming on on that very issue, that he was asked to write by IIRC Thomas Nelson Press, or some similar Protestant press.
As soon as it comes out, tell me the book's name. I would love to buy it & read it.

Thanks and God bless,
Severian
"The Jesus we missed" He didn't pick the title, and didn't like it.  He talks about that here
http://ancientfaith.com/specials/aoc_2011/western_rite
Great!
I got an advanced gally copy.  The full title is "The Jesus We Missed:The surprising truth about the Humanity of Christ."  The book should come out in a couple months.
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« Reply #36 on: December 12, 2011, 02:05:44 AM »

Sounds very interesting. I'll get a copy when it's out.
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« Reply #37 on: December 12, 2011, 01:46:03 PM »

My priest, Very Rev. Patrick Henry Reardon, has a book coming on on that very issue, that he was asked to write by IIRC Thomas Nelson Press, or some similar Protestant press.
As soon as it comes out, tell me the book's name. I would love to buy it & read it.

Thanks and God bless,
Severian
"The Jesus we missed" He didn't pick the title, and didn't like it.  He talks about that here
http://ancientfaith.com/specials/aoc_2011/western_rite
Great!
I got an advanced gally copy.  The full title is "The Jesus We Missed:The surprising truth about the Humanity of Christ."  The book should come out in a couple months.
Thanks for the update! Smiley
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