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Author Topic: Which Theory Do You Believe In?  (Read 2799 times) Average Rating: 0
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Andreas
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« on: June 10, 2004, 09:53:25 PM »

 Huh
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« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2004, 03:48:19 AM »

I don't believe in any theory Wink

I believe the fact that God made everything and am happy to leave it at that.
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« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2004, 06:06:13 AM »

Prodromos,

Good answer, and that is basically my opinion as well.  However, I will say that I would not be surprised if it turns out that our universe's development followed the Genesis account more literally than most people now would normally grant.  I also am disinclined to believe in the evolution of the species (wouldn't rule it out, just disinclined to take what evidence has been put forward too seriously), and definately believe Adam was a historical person, and first man.

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« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2004, 10:04:53 AM »

Right.  I'm inclined to take much of the evidence for the evolution of species seriously, but do not believe the evidence weighs in heavily for a "non-directed," or totally random evolutionary process.  I'm inclined to read Genesis 2-3 allegorically.

But, I believe first and foremost that God the Trinity created the heavens and the earth, which, at man's hands, fell into sin; that God the Father  then sent His Son the Words as the Christ to redeem us; and that He will bring all things to their fulfillment at the end of the ages, when He comes again.

Those are things that matter most, but they are also beyond the scope of the empirical sciences, as Pascal pointed out long ago.
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ania
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« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2004, 10:32:58 AM »

A friend of mine recently suggested that (as many people think, me too, when I bother to worry about it) that we don't know God's concept of time.  He supported it by saying that nowhere is it said that there has been an 8th day yet, so it's quite possible that it is still the 7th day, and God is still resting.
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« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2004, 10:42:13 AM »

I agree with prodromos.  

God made it all.  I don't have to know "how".  Much like I don't have to know "how" the Holy Gifts become the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, I don't have to know "how" things came to be.  They just are.

Of course, having an anthropology degree, I enjoy studying the various theories of "how", but in the end, it really doesn't matter.
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« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2004, 10:46:46 AM »

Prodromos,

Good answer, and that is basically my opinion as well.  However, I will say that I would not be surprised if it turns out that our universe's development followed the Genesis account more literally than most people now would normally grant.  I also am disinclined to believe in the evolution of the species (wouldn't rule it out, just disinclined to take what evidence has been put forward too seriously), and definately believe Adam was a historical person, and first man.



I agree with you.  I don't think one can be dogmatic about the age of the earth, but I tend to think it's much younger than many think. Also, while there is evidence for evolution on a limited scale, I don't think Scriptures nor the actual scientific evidence supports Darwinists' grander metaphysical claims.
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« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2004, 10:55:24 AM »

In my opinion, we should all read St. Basil's Hexameron.  Both Fr Seraphim Rose and Dr. Alexander Kolomiros (a noted Old Calendarist), when they argued over evolution, quoted this work extensively--but from my reading of the work itself, they *both* misquoted St. Basil.  Fr. Seraphim used St. Basil to prove evolution was false, and Dr. Kolomiros used him to prove evolution!

If you actually read the work itself, St. Basil is saying that 1) science is something that we accept and use to explain the mysteries of God's creation, but that it is limited; 2) science and revelation address different needs and our faith is something beyond science.

My interpretation (use at your own risk) is that: science is good for science, faith for faith.

How does this play out?  God made the earth. How he did it is his business.  If things evolved he was there every step of the process, to the present day, and at the moment that man was ready to be born, he took ONE creature and gave it a nous (rational soul) and breathed life into it.  And that was the literal man named Adam.

anastasios
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« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2004, 11:13:00 AM »

Anastasios,

A very logical and learned approach to this subject.

When you are ordained, and assigned to a parish, let me know -- I am moving to where you are!
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« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2004, 11:37:45 AM »

Anastasios,

A very logical and learned approach to this subject.

When you are ordained, and assigned to a parish, let me know -- I am moving to where you are!


You mean you want your priest to be some young 27 yr old kid (or however old he is)?  Grin

Two of my good friends growing up are in seminary, one at St. Tikhon's and the other at St. Vlad's and are only a year older than me.  I anticipate them being ordained within the next few years and it will be really awkward seeing either as a priest, let alone actually confessing to either (which I probably wouldn't do unless an emergency arises).
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« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2004, 11:41:50 AM »

You mean you want your priest to be some young 27 yr old kid (or however old he is)?  Grin

Well, since we are buddies, I was kinda hoping he would let me slide a little on some things!  Grin
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« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2004, 12:54:04 PM »

I have a lot of friends at Holy Trin Sem, and I doubt I would go to confession to any of them... not unless I was in dire straights...
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« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2004, 03:05:49 PM »

I would be curious about how one would reconcile the fall of man (and the subsequent effect this had upon the universe) and the standard "evolutionistic" cosmology.

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« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2004, 03:51:15 PM »

Is there really "a" fall, though?  Look at St Ireneaus and some of the other fathers: they seem to indicate that from the moment he was created, Adam moved towards sin.  The "fall" was merely the consumation of the temptation to move away from God that was present in Adam from the onset.  Creatures are imperfect.  Adam *could* have chosen the royal path but really it was highly unlikely.  Some argue whether a non-fallen Adam would need an incarnate Christ.  However, some have pointed out that since God the Logos *is* the Savior--that is how he revealed himself to us--he *needed to create* in order to have something to save.

Reading the Fathers' works sometimes gives us a very different picture of theology than we have supposed. I am finding this to be the case when I read Fr John Behr, one of the foremost Orthodox theologians of our day.  His two books (one of which we will read for our book discussion starting this month) explain this stuff much better than I could.

anastasios
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Ben
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« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2004, 03:54:35 PM »

I don't mean to sound stupid or take this thread a little off track, but what is the "Gap Theory"?
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« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2004, 04:01:20 PM »

Anastasios,

Quote
Is there really "a" fall, though?  Look at St Ireneaus and some of the other fathers: they seem to indicate that from the moment he was created, Adam moved towards sin.  The "fall" was merely the consumation of the temptation to move away from God that was present in Adam from the onset.  Creatures are imperfect.  Adam *could* have chosen the royal path but really it was highly unlikely.

This comes close to saying that God created Adam with the intention that He was to fall.  This comes close to the Mormon teaching on this subject.

Quote
Some argue whether a non-fallen Adam would need an incarnate Christ.

There is a difference between God's foreknowledge and providence regarding Adam's sin (and those of the rest of mankind which would follow), and Adam's sin being a part of God's design.   This is why there is no contradiction between saying that the mysteries of redemption were planned before the "foundation of the world", yet also saying that God created the universe and man "very good" and without blemish.  There's a shifting of responsibilities here that I'm not comfortable with.

Quote
However, some have pointed out that since God the Logos *is* the Savior--that is how he revealed himself to us--he *needed to create* in order to have something to save.

I've always been taught that any concept that God needs to do anything, in particular in the act of creation itself, is an import from (pagan) hellenic philosophy.  We do not know why God created this universe - that is one of His secrets...yet "need" had nothing to do with it.

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« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2004, 04:38:49 PM »

Augustine,

God doesn't strictly speaking "need" to create you are right: but he chose to reveal himself (the Logos) as the Savior: that is the only way we know him.  As such given his free choice to reveal himself as the Savior in order to be consistent he "needed" to create.

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« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2004, 08:07:13 PM »

Anastasios,

Quote
God doesn't strictly speaking "need" to create you are right: but he chose to reveal himself (the Logos) as the Savior:

Yes, chose - and why?  Well, the word Savior implies that there is something to save.  And why is there something to save?  Because our first parents messed up, and we've continued in that unhappy tradition (and even if we did not, we still live with the miserable consequences of their fall).

Which once again makes me ask how one can reconcile the unblemished, "very good" creation of God which only tasted bitterness after Adam's fall from grace, with the evolutionary model which actually requires death and corruption from the beginning?


Quote
that is the only way we know him.

Yes, and that is our doing - God's loving response to our failure.

Quote
As such given his free choice to reveal himself as the Savior in order to be consistent he "needed" to create.

I think you're putting the cart in front of the horse.  This reminds me of the whole "predestination" debate, which is perhaps a case of hitching the cart in front of the horse in the area of soteriology (the exact numbering of the elect before the foundation of the world does not undo the free will of mankind by way of some irressistable grace, but foresee's who will persevere in the grace of God and save their souls).

God creates for reasons entirely unknown to us - this is His plan.  However, His providence/omniscience also encompasses any possible mischief which our free will may cause, and will not allow this mischief to cause the creation to end in futility (or comprimise His plans.)  The way God has chosen to overcome our sinfulness, is the economy of salvation revealed to us.

Of course, after awhile this starts to become confusing since it can have the appearance of resulting in a lot of paradoxical loops in time - however this is not entirely true, since much of this is "explained" (really hidden) in the incomprehensibility of God Himself, and is known to Him from "before" there was "time."

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« Reply #18 on: June 11, 2004, 08:10:37 PM »

Does Orthodoxy teach this heresy of Evolution???
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« Reply #19 on: June 11, 2004, 08:12:57 PM »

I see that one person voted for "Gap theory". I asked what that was in this thread but no one answered...what is it?
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« Reply #20 on: June 11, 2004, 08:16:41 PM »

Does Orthodoxy teach this heresy of Evolution???

No.
We have no dogma on the issue. Belief in it or denial of it matters not for theosis.

Demetri
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« Reply #21 on: June 11, 2004, 09:12:07 PM »

I see that one person voted for "Gap theory". I asked what that was in this thread but no one answered...what is it?

http://www.apologeticspress.org/rr/rr1994/r&r9407a.htm
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« Reply #22 on: July 03, 2004, 04:13:23 AM »

I thought I would bump it for more votes. Smiley
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« Reply #23 on: July 08, 2004, 08:59:47 PM »

There was no place to vote for intelligent design theory.  This theory is quickly gaining steam in the  scientific community.  I suggest reading "Darwins Black Box"  if you are interested in the subject.  Also  let us not forget that Genesis is not meant to be a history, or science book.  It is meant to show our fall from God's intended image.  It is a pre-salvation history.
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