Author Topic: Sometimes Jesus was UNcivil  (Read 4056 times)

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Offline minasoliman

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Re: Sometimes Jesus was UNcivil
« Reply #45 on: October 01, 2011, 11:39:01 AM »
Sometimes Jesus didn't keep a civil tongue in his head and that didn't make him unholy.... because in his human self.... he didn't sin and he was perfect, so being truthfull but sometimes uncivil obviously wasn't a rule breaker.

His first miracle was at the wedding and he was clearly ticked at his mum when he said this ""Woman, what does your concern have to do with me?" even when your not a kid any more, that's still his mum he was talking to.

When he called the pharisees a brood of vipers....hypocrits....white washed tombs... full of iniquity. Lots of ad homs there uh?? I'm sure he could have thought of another way to say that but, i like it that he was just direct.....obviously wasn't a rule breaker either...no sin in being truthfull and direct because Jesus never sinned or broke a rule.

So yeah, maybe we should all be more Christ-like.

Jesus wasn't ticked at His mom. It seems like it, but only because we are not used to the culture of Jesus' time. I would suggest read "Hail, Holy Queen" by Scott Hahn.

Frankly, I would avoid Hahn's works. He rcently has been discussed on this site for making his rather ridiculous assumption (which betrays his lack of understanding regarding Patristic thought) that theology must develop.

I would rather recommend that one read anything written by any of the Church Fathers, or any homilies by the same.

www.ccel.org is a great place to start this search!

Do we not often quote Origen, a know heretic? What Hahn has to offer in this particular case is very valuable. His explanation of who the Mother of God is and what she does is tremendous, besides his defenses of modern Marian doctrines being developed within the Roman Church. :)

I don't think Origen was a heretic.   Origen was just hated because he actually used his mind.

Have fun resurrecting in your spherical body.

lol
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Offline Azul

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Re: Sometimes Jesus was UNcivil
« Reply #46 on: November 24, 2012, 07:36:56 PM »
what caused Jesus to have that reaction at the money changers and merchandisers at the Temple?
Every formula of every religion has in this age of reason, to submit to the acid test of reason and universal assent.
Mahatma Gandhi

Offline Severian

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Re: Sometimes Jesus was UNcivil
« Reply #47 on: November 24, 2012, 07:52:45 PM »
what caused Jesus to have that reaction at the money changers and merchandisers at the Temple?
Zeal.

"Zeal for your house has eaten me up."
"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -Jesus Christ

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Offline JamesR

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Re: Sometimes Jesus was UNcivil
« Reply #48 on: November 24, 2012, 08:12:22 PM »
His first miracle was at the wedding and he was clearly ticked at his mum when he said this ""Woman, what does your concern have to do with me?" even when your not a kid any more, that's still his mum he was talking to.

How many times does it have to be said that calling her "woman" did not carry the same negative connotation that it carries now, but that it was actually a term of respect back then?

Quote
When he called the pharisees a brood of vipers....hypocrits....white washed tombs... full of iniquity. Lots of ad homs there uh??

Only if what He said wasn't true

Quote
I'm sure he could have thought of another way to say that but, i like it that he was just direct.....obviously wasn't a rule breaker either...no sin in being truthfull and direct because Jesus never sinned or broke a rule.

Plus He is God--the only person who can truly judge them fairly, knowing everything in their hearts and everything that happened in their lives. If His judgment was true, then there is nothing wrong with what He said to them.
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
In the infinite wisdom of God, James can be all three.

Offline JamesR

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Re: Sometimes Jesus was UNcivil
« Reply #49 on: November 24, 2012, 08:16:00 PM »
I don't think Origen was a heretic.   Origen was just hated because he actually used his mind.

Why was Origen considered a heretic?

He taught the pre-existence of human souls and believed in universalism--that is, that everyone will be 'saved' some day. To be fair though, he never really seemed to have a good spiritual father and had very little contact with the rest of the Church. Plus, the charges brought against him came way after his death. Who knows? He loved the Church and tried submitting to it in everything, maybe if he was alive to plead his case, he would have accepted the Church's guidance and abandoned his few heretical views. Plus, what if we misinterpreted him since he was not alive to explain to us what he meant exactly?
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
In the infinite wisdom of God, James can be all three.

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Sometimes Jesus was UNcivil
« Reply #50 on: November 24, 2012, 08:46:09 PM »
Plus He is God--the only person who can truly judge them fairly
As a man.
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if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

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Offline Sinful Hypocrite

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Re: Sometimes Jesus was UNcivil
« Reply #51 on: November 24, 2012, 08:47:36 PM »
Here is what one of the professional commentators say about this,


<< John 2 >>
Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary on the Bible   
2:1-11 It is very desirable when there is a marriage, to have Christ own and bless it. Those that would have Christ with them at their marriage, must invite him by prayer, and he will come. While in this world we sometimes find ourselves in straits, even when we think ourselves in fulness. There was want at a marriage feast. Those who are come to care for the things of the world, must look for trouble, and count upon disappointment. In our addresses to Christ, we must humbly spread our case before him, and then refer ourselves to him to do as he pleases. In Christ's reply to his mother there was no disrespect. He used the same word when speaking to her with affection from the cross; yet it is a standing testimony against the idolatry of after-ages, in giving undue honours to his mother. His hour is come when we know not what to do. Delays of mercy are not denials of prayer. Those that expect Christ's favours, must observe his orders with ready obedience. The way of duty is the way to mercy; and Christ's methods must not be objected against
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Offline Azul

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Re: Sometimes Jesus was UNcivil
« Reply #52 on: November 25, 2012, 05:52:03 AM »
what caused Jesus to have that reaction at the money changers and merchandisers at the Temple?
Zeal.

"Zeal for your house has eaten me up."

what offended Jesus so much that he turned their tables and used a whip?what was so wrong that he did that?
Every formula of every religion has in this age of reason, to submit to the acid test of reason and universal assent.
Mahatma Gandhi

Offline Nicene

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Re: Sometimes Jesus was UNcivil
« Reply #53 on: November 25, 2012, 08:39:51 PM »
Might we be anachronising our assumptions of language and behavior onto the past with that example?
Thank you.

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Sometimes Jesus was UNcivil
« Reply #54 on: November 25, 2012, 09:03:01 PM »
what caused Jesus to have that reaction at the money changers and merchandisers at the Temple?
Zeal.

"Zeal for your house has eaten me up."

what offended Jesus so much that he turned their tables and used a whip?what was so wrong that he did that?
The temple priests had some systems set up.

You would bring an animal to the temple to sacrifice it. An official would look at your animal and say, "you cannot sacrifice it, because it has a blemish". He would offer to sell you a different animal for a high price, and would take your animal as well. Then he would turn around and sell your animal as a "pure" animal for a high price to the next person.

They also made people spend money at the exchange, because coins with Caesar's image on them were idolatrous and couldn't enter the temple.

These were scams that the temple officials ran.
Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

Πλούσιοι επτώχευσαν και επείνασαν
Οιδε εκζητούντες τον Κύριον
Ουκ ελαττωθήσονται παντός αγαθού

Offline Azul

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Re: Sometimes Jesus was UNcivil
« Reply #55 on: November 26, 2012, 11:35:46 AM »
what caused Jesus to have that reaction at the money changers and merchandisers at the Temple?
Zeal.

"Zeal for your house has eaten me up."

what offended Jesus so much that he turned their tables and used a whip?what was so wrong that he did that?
The temple priests had some systems set up.

You would bring an animal to the temple to sacrifice it. An official would look at your animal and say, "you cannot sacrifice it, because it has a blemish". He would offer to sell you a different animal for a high price, and would take your animal as well. Then he would turn around and sell your animal as a "pure" animal for a high price to the next person.

They also made people spend money at the exchange, because coins with Caesar's image on them were idolatrous and couldn't enter the temple.

These were scams that the temple officials ran.

interesting.what is/are your basis for this argument/s?
Every formula of every religion has in this age of reason, to submit to the acid test of reason and universal assent.
Mahatma Gandhi

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Sometimes Jesus was UNcivil
« Reply #56 on: November 26, 2012, 04:24:55 PM »
what caused Jesus to have that reaction at the money changers and merchandisers at the Temple?
Zeal.

"Zeal for your house has eaten me up."

what offended Jesus so much that he turned their tables and used a whip?what was so wrong that he did that?
The temple priests had some systems set up.

You would bring an animal to the temple to sacrifice it. An official would look at your animal and say, "you cannot sacrifice it, because it has a blemish". He would offer to sell you a different animal for a high price, and would take your animal as well. Then he would turn around and sell your animal as a "pure" animal for a high price to the next person.

They also made people spend money at the exchange, because coins with Caesar's image on them were idolatrous and couldn't enter the temple.

These were scams that the temple officials ran.

interesting.what is/are your basis for this argument/s?
protestants
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if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

Πλούσιοι επτώχευσαν και επείνασαν
Οιδε εκζητούντες τον Κύριον
Ουκ ελαττωθήσονται παντός αγαθού

Offline Shiny

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Re: Sometimes Jesus was UNcivil
« Reply #57 on: November 26, 2012, 04:56:36 PM »
You would bring an animal to the temple to sacrifice it. An official would look at your animal and say, "you cannot sacrifice it, because it has a blemish". He would offer to sell you a different animal for a high price, and would take your animal as well. Then he would turn around and sell your animal as a "pure" animal for a high price to the next person.
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Sometimes Jesus was UNcivil
« Reply #58 on: November 26, 2012, 08:46:16 PM »
Might we be anachronising our assumptions of language and behavior onto the past with that example?

You have no other choice. There are no anachronisms when it comes to understanding. We understand in light of care for the future, limited by the past, to act within the present.

We are always in time.

The past is not a place that is revisited or studied anew or knowledge accumulated upon by historians, but unearthed as the very limits of our understanding.

And as in all unearthing, that which is discovered necessarily covers more deeply that which we might also attempt to seek.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2012, 08:46:57 PM by orthonorm »
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Offline Gunnarr

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Re: Sometimes Jesus was UNcivil
« Reply #59 on: November 28, 2012, 10:03:34 AM »
The Apostle Paul was also uncivil:

A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew, please teach the Apostle Paul, who is less than you!

"Such opinions evoke anguish and sorrow by running counter to the Orthodox ethos. They risk unforeseen consequences for church unity in general, and the unity of our holy Orthodox church in particular"
"They contradict the decisions taken jointly by Orthodox churches to participate in bilateral and multilateral theological dialogue with the heterodox"

Thank you, your All-Holiness!
I am a demonic servant! Beware!