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Author Topic: The Problem of Hell and a loving God  (Read 16461 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #450 on: August 07, 2011, 09:25:38 PM »

What books do you say also have every sentence inspired by God to be profitable for doctrine, like Paul says the Bible is.

What is "the Bible"? What was "scripture" during the time of St Paul?

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« Reply #451 on: August 07, 2011, 09:27:01 PM »

Which word or phrase precisely, in the above text;  refers to the other literature you would have is inspired by God for equipping the saints.

Chop chop, answer please.

Which part excludes everything, BUT scripture?

Chop... chop...


If Paul was speaking about other literature, and not scripture alone, it should be easy for you to quote him, proving that.

chop chop, time to answer the obvious...
You're not going to weasel your way out of my challenge by trying to turn the table around. Show me where the word "alone" is to be found in 2 Timothy 3:15-17.

Before I do, tell me what literature you want included as inspired by God.
Not my assertion. Now just answer my challenge.

It certainly is...you insist scripture isn't alone among literature inspired by God for correcting the saints.
I said no such thing. You have to put words into my mouth to make it look as if I insist that. Now, back to my challenge to you.

You insist the word alone isn't there.
Because it isn't there. You have to go through a lot of rhetorical hoops to read the word "alone" into the text, but the word isn't there.

Now its time you reveal your agenda, what literature do you insist joins scripture as inspired by God.
No agenda. I just want you to answer my challenge. Is that simple task too hard for you? Where is the word "alone" in 2 Timothy 3:15-17?

What books do you say also have every sentence inspired by God to be profitable for doctrine, like Paul says the Bible is.
I'm not saying anything, except that you're trying exceptionally hard to avoid answering my challenge.

You don't have any books whose every verse is inspired by God to be beneficial for doctrine, yet you argue the Bible isn't alone in this regard...
Stop putting words into my mouth, Alfred. You know very well I never argued that.

Now, would you kindly just answer my challenge? Where is the word "alone" to be found in 2 Timothy 3:15-17?
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« Reply #452 on: August 07, 2011, 09:37:45 PM »

Overlooked exactly what? Where have I ever denied that "Every verse of scripture is profitable for doctrine" ? Where?

The Apostle Paul read non-Scriptural literature and found truth in it which was "profitable for teaching". He did not quote Scripture alone. Solā Scripturā is your doctrine - not St Paul's.

Yes, Paul read those, but NO, he wasn't referring to them in 2 Tim 3:15ff.

THAT is what you overlooked, the wording of the Bible text that makes the Bible unique, every verse is inspired, unlike those poets you mentioned...hence the Bible is alone in this regard.
No - I do not overlook that point. I do believe that all of it is inspired. Where have I said elsewhere? But you continue to overlook the plain meaning that "every Scripture" does not mean "only Scripture".

And just to be clear at this point: I did not say that the non-Scriptural writings that St Paul quoted were fully inspired. My point is that God's truth is not limited to one book.
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« Reply #453 on: August 07, 2011, 11:06:10 PM »

Overlooked exactly what? Where have I ever denied that "Every verse of scripture is profitable for doctrine" ? Where?

The Apostle Paul read non-Scriptural literature and found truth in it which was "profitable for teaching". He did not quote Scripture alone. Solā Scripturā is your doctrine - not St Paul's.

Yes, Paul read those, but NO, he wasn't referring to them in 2 Tim 3:15ff.

THAT is what you overlooked, the wording of the Bible text that makes the Bible unique, every verse is inspired, unlike those poets you mentioned...hence the Bible is alone in this regard.
No - I do not overlook that point. I do believe that all of it is inspired. Where have I said elsewhere? But you continue to overlook the plain meaning that "every Scripture" does not mean "only Scripture".

And just to be clear at this point: I did not say that the non-Scriptural writings that St Paul quoted were fully inspired. My point is that God's truth is not limited to one book.

Ok, but you point isn't what I am defending.

Peter will ask where "alone" until he is freed from the time loop.

Do you agree with Paul?

Paul says the Bible is alone in that every verse is inspired by God to be beneficial for doctrine, that the man of God be complete.

Do you believe this, or do you have other books apart from the Bible, Greek poets etc, whose every sentence is inspired by God and beneficial for doctrine?

That is what we are arguing about.

Do you believe the Bible stands alone, apart from all other literature, as uniquely inspired by God, or is it just one book among many books where God's truth can be found, in the midst of much that is simply wrong?

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« Reply #454 on: August 07, 2011, 11:22:33 PM »

ps: your argument is a straw man, I never said the word "alone" is in the verse, I said it is deducible...
Alfred, for something to be deducible from 2 Timothy 3:15-17, what is deduced must be based on what is written. For you to be able to deduce from this passage that the Scriptures alone are capable of making us complete, you have to be able to show how the text of the passage says this. Otherwise, you're reading the concept of "alone" into the passage. That's why it's so necessary that you find the word "alone" in the text of 2 Timothy 3:15-17.

Therefore, my challenge to you still stands. Show me where the word "alone" is used in the text of 2 Timothy 3:15-17.
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« Reply #455 on: August 07, 2011, 11:48:59 PM »

I have asked you numerous times to explain your exegetical processes in an orderly fashion, and you have refused to do so.  This is the problem I have had with your approach all along.

That was my agenda: to reveal the fact that your thinking is self-absorbed and disorderly.

You considered my simple questions to be ad hominem attacks when they were nothing of the sort, then you bore false witness against me.

It is no smear to characterize your obfuscations as what they are when you provide no reasonable alternative.  You won't explain your standards because you want to dictate what rule goes where without giving away your hand.  This is not a fair debate when you won't explain how you judge before you do so.

You don't have to call me 'father,' and I would be disappointed if you did because it would be merely for show.

However, I consider it the height of all compliments that you call me consistent.  Thank you!!!!  Smiley  I've been striving for that for a long time.

I wish I could return the compliment, but I have not seen such consistency on your part.  You speak as a teacher, but refuse to teach.  You speak as a preach, but refuse to preach.  You speak as a 'warrior,' but you won't hold your ground.  You have dodged every question and run from every challenge.

I know it is hard for you to give up, because you have so much riding on 'winning' this argument, but all you are doing is making it worse.

Either engage our questions or stop for your own sanity.



Your agenda is clear, regardless what i say, how carefully and accurately I respond to your many questions, you ignore my answers and use the response as an occasion to heap smears and insults on me.

Very unchristian of you, "father."

But I will give you this, you are consistent.


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« Reply #456 on: August 07, 2011, 11:50:04 PM »

Therefore, my challenge to you still stands. Show me where the word "alone" is used in the text of 2 Timothy 3:15-17.

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« Reply #457 on: August 07, 2011, 11:53:12 PM »

Perhaps I was not clear: do you believe that in order to have a reasonable discussion regarding the Scriptures, there must be a mutual understanding of how they are interpreted?


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« Reply #458 on: August 07, 2011, 11:53:45 PM »

ps: your argument is a straw man, I never said the word "alone" is in the verse, I said it is deducible...
Alfred, for something to be deducible from 2 Timothy 3:15-17, what is deduced must be based on what is written. For you to be able to deduce from this passage that the Scriptures alone are capable of making us complete, you have to be able to show how the text of the passage says this. Otherwise, you're reading the concept of "alone" into the passage. That's why it's so necessary that you find the word "alone" in the text of 2 Timothy 3:15-17.

Therefore, my challenge to you still stands. Show me where the word "alone" is used in the text of 2 Timothy 3:15-17.

Never said it was there, eventually even you will tire of that straw man argument.

I will give you this, you are consistent, relentless even.

Eventually...in a week or two...or three.
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« Reply #459 on: August 08, 2011, 12:57:49 AM »

"Poor human reason, when it trusts in itself, substitutes the strangest absurdities for the highest divine concepts." {St. John Chrysostom}

I read this on Facebook tonight and for some reason it reminded me of this thread.   Wink

Alfred, besides being unable to find that pesky, elusive "alone" in 1 Timothy 3:15-17 (and ignoring the verse right there with these that explains that Timothy learned from Paul's teaching on the Old Testament, not from his own reading and interpreting the OT by himself -- this is a big comment on the importance and validity of oral tradition), you're assuming that text/literature is the only way God speaks to us; that his "word" is text. But it's not. His Word is a person. Christ is the Word.  Text is just one of the many ways Christ, the Word, teaches us about himself.   
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« Reply #460 on: August 08, 2011, 01:15:19 AM »

Do you agree with Paul?

Paul says the Bible is alone in that every verse is inspired by God to be beneficial for doctrine, that the man of God be complete.

Where exactly and in what words does Paul say that "the Bible is alone in that every verse is inspired by God"?

I'm looking up all the Scripture references you're giving, and I don't see those words.
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« Reply #461 on: August 08, 2011, 02:42:22 AM »

Where exactly and in what words does Paul say that "the Bible is alone in that every verse is inspired by God"?

I'm looking up all the Scripture references you're giving, and I don't see those words.

I think he's quoting 2 Tim 3:16-17.
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
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« Reply #462 on: August 08, 2011, 03:15:06 AM »

ps: your argument is a straw man, I never said the word "alone" is in the verse, I said it is deducible...
Alfred, for something to be deducible from 2 Timothy 3:15-17, what is deduced must be based on what is written. For you to be able to deduce from this passage that the Scriptures alone are capable of making us complete, you have to be able to show how the text of the passage says this. Otherwise, you're reading the concept of "alone" into the passage. That's why it's so necessary that you find the word "alone" in the text of 2 Timothy 3:15-17.

Therefore, my challenge to you still stands. Show me where the word "alone" is used in the text of 2 Timothy 3:15-17.

Never said it was there, eventually even you will tire of that straw man argument.


Because your whole point and argument is based on sticking to what IS WRITTEN in the bible, this isn't a strawman.
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« Reply #463 on: August 08, 2011, 04:19:17 AM »

Where exactly and in what words does Paul say that "the Bible is alone in that every verse is inspired by God"?

I'm looking up all the Scripture references you're giving, and I don't see those words.

I think he's quoting 2 Tim 3:16-17.
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
Yes, we know what verses Alfred is quoting. Wink
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« Reply #464 on: August 08, 2011, 06:23:13 AM »

Quote from: Alfred Persson
Never said it was there, eventually even you will tire of that straw man argument.

It's not a straw man, Alfred, it's the basis of your entire claim. And it's a word that is not in the verse you cited.

Peter wins. Challenge over.
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« Reply #465 on: August 08, 2011, 07:40:10 AM »

Do you agree with Paul?

Paul says the Bible is alone in that every verse is inspired by God to be beneficial for doctrine, that the man of God be complete.

Do you believe this, or do you have other books apart from the Bible, Greek poets etc, whose every sentence is inspired by God and beneficial for doctrine?

That is what we are arguing about.

Do you believe the Bible stands alone, apart from all other literature, as uniquely inspired by God, or is it just one book among many books where God's truth can be found, in the midst of much that is simply wrong?
Now, Alfred, you know very well that I believe the Bible to be a unique book.

[On a side issue: we must recognize that the Bible was not written as a book in the way we commonly use the term. It is a collection of writings. That is obvious in Orthodox services as the Gospel, the Epistles, and OT Readings are read from different volumes. The word "Bible" is not even found in the Bible.]

But I do disagree with your contention that "Paul says the Bible alone...." Undoubtedly St Paul and I do agree that the Holy Scriptures were inspired by God in their writing and in their compilation, but nowhere does Paul say "the Bible alone". So yes, I agree with St Paul, but apparently you don't, because you insist on inserting the word "alone".
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« Reply #466 on: August 08, 2011, 10:20:21 AM »

Where exactly and in what words does Paul say that "the Bible is alone in that every verse is inspired by God"?

I'm looking up all the Scripture references you're giving, and I don't see those words.

I think he's quoting 2 Tim 3:16-17.
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

So where in that verse does it say "The Bible alone"?  I do see that it says "All Scripture", but it doesn't say "Only Scripture" - does it?

Perhaps I'm using the wrong translation ...  Wink
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« Reply #467 on: August 08, 2011, 12:10:26 PM »

Evidently elegant deduction must be explained here to be accepted. Happy to help, I live to serve:

Every Scripture passage is inspired by God. All of them are useful for teaching, pointing out errors, correcting people, and training them for a life that has God's approval. (2Ti 3:16 GWN)

Every Scripture passage is inspired by God to be beneficial for teaching correct doctrine, NOT every sentence of all literature is inspired by God.0

Therefore Paul speaks of scripture alone, not other literature.

As Paul speaks of scripture alone being inspired by God to correct error,
its logical scripture alone is inspired by God to correct error, not other literature.


We are speaking of literature, not about His inspiring prophets ect, whose words may or may not have become Scripture.

If scripture weren't alone in this regard, Paul would have said so---BECAUSE His theme is about God inspiring scripture which completely equips the saints, therefore if other literature was used by God for this purpose, he would have listed that also...as he listed scripture alone in this regard, it alone is inspired by God for this purpose.

That is clear.


Dear Alfred, I admire your sincerity and I know you debate in order to get critical feedback on your current projects and that you revise accordingly when you find a problem area.

However, to me,  your above statement is the problem and not the solution. We are human beings and all deductions by human beings are fallible and putting Pope in front of your name would not change this underlying truth. We are limited by our experiences. One could logically deduce that what goes up must come down based on our experience, but it is not true. You are putting God and His Church into a box based on your all too human mental capacity.  I love God and see his love for us everywhere and at all times, but I also see my sins and I do not feel I deserve His love. I suspect you feel you have been chosen by God and you may be correct but not for the reason that you think. Through you, and the clearly visible problems of a human deducing God's intent in scripture, I now understand why Mystery is such an important aspect of His Church and the role of the Eucharist in our lives.

I am not a debater, but I thought I would let you know my take on your threads.

Peace be with you and I truly do respect you.

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« Reply #468 on: August 08, 2011, 12:13:43 PM »

Do you agree with Paul?

Paul says the Bible is alone in that every verse is inspired by God to be beneficial for doctrine, that the man of God be complete.

Do you believe this, or do you have other books apart from the Bible, Greek poets etc, whose every sentence is inspired by God and beneficial for doctrine?

That is what we are arguing about.

Do you believe the Bible stands alone, apart from all other literature, as uniquely inspired by God, or is it just one book among many books where God's truth can be found, in the midst of much that is simply wrong?
Now, Alfred, you know very well that I believe the Bible to be a unique book.

[On a side issue: we must recognize that the Bible was not written as a book in the way we commonly use the term. It is a collection of writings. That is obvious in Orthodox services as the Gospel, the Epistles, and OT Readings are read from different volumes. The word "Bible" is not even found in the Bible.]

But I do disagree with your contention that "Paul says the Bible alone...." Undoubtedly St Paul and I do agree that the Holy Scriptures were inspired by God in their writing and in their compilation, but nowhere does Paul say "the Bible alone". So yes, I agree with St Paul, but apparently you don't, because you insist on inserting the word "alone".

So what other literature did God inspire so that every sentence was profitable for doctrine, to equip the man of God fully?

I need the list, otherwise the Bible is "alone" in that regard, that is a logical deduction.

The straw man "the word isn't there so your wrong" is just bs...you gents (and gals) have lost the argument, not because I'm a great debater, but because the Orthodox position on this is indefensible.

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« Reply #469 on: August 08, 2011, 12:25:08 PM »

The Divine Liturgy, the Creed, the canons of the various ecumenical councils, and various other things. Those are inspired and profitable, and able to equip fully. Especially the Liturgy, because that effects Holy Communion, which equips us most fully of all.

I don't know about your God, but ours didn't check out of the inspiration business when St John wrote "Amen" at the end of Revelation. Smiley
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« Reply #470 on: August 08, 2011, 12:29:20 PM »

Yes, Scripture alone is supreme, not scripture alone exists.

Here is the problem. The two words that I have bolded appear nowhere in that passage.

Quote
Paul says Scripture alone was inspired by God to be beneficial for doctrine, that the man of God be complete…UNLIKE ALL OTHER TEXTS.

The best you can do, and it seems you might be saying if I am understanding you correctly, is that Scripture alone is inspired by God, but other things which you claim to lack inspiration are still profitable...etc. Either way, if scripture does not exist "alone" as you say above, then it should not be understood "alone", but within the context of everything else and everything else should be understood in the context of scripture because they all proclaim the same message. Even if scripture is to be taken as "supreme" among all other things, it must be understood in the context of those things.

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« Reply #471 on: August 08, 2011, 12:59:44 PM »

Do you agree with Paul?

Paul says the Bible is alone in that every verse is inspired by God to be beneficial for doctrine, that the man of God be complete.

Do you believe this, or do you have other books apart from the Bible, Greek poets etc, whose every sentence is inspired by God and beneficial for doctrine?

That is what we are arguing about.

Do you believe the Bible stands alone, apart from all other literature, as uniquely inspired by God, or is it just one book among many books where God's truth can be found, in the midst of much that is simply wrong?
Now, Alfred, you know very well that I believe the Bible to be a unique book.

[On a side issue: we must recognize that the Bible was not written as a book in the way we commonly use the term. It is a collection of writings. That is obvious in Orthodox services as the Gospel, the Epistles, and OT Readings are read from different volumes. The word "Bible" is not even found in the Bible.]

But I do disagree with your contention that "Paul says the Bible alone...." Undoubtedly St Paul and I do agree that the Holy Scriptures were inspired by God in their writing and in their compilation, but nowhere does Paul say "the Bible alone". So yes, I agree with St Paul, but apparently you don't, because you insist on inserting the word "alone".

So what other literature did God inspire so that every sentence was profitable for doctrine, to equip the man of God fully?

I need the list, otherwise the Bible is "alone" in that regard, that is a logical deduction.

The straw man "the word isn't there so your wrong" is just bs...you gents (and gals) have lost the argument, not because I'm a great debater, but because the Orthodox position on this is indefensible.


Alfred, you're creating arguments and putting them in our mouths--er, fingers--in order to avoid engaging my challenge to find where Paul says "alone" in 2 Timothy 3:15-17. You know full well that your whole defense of sola scriptura rests upon the presence or absence of the word "alone" in 2 Timothy 3:15-17, so you dodge, and squirm, and scratch, and claw, and bite in order to avoid acknowledging that the word "alone" cannot be found in this passage. It simply is not there. "Scripture alone" cannot even be deduced from the text without you introducing some concept (the Bible's uniqueness among literature) not found anywhere in the Bible. You cannot stand to see your whole logical system of biblical interpretation fall down like the house of cards it is, so you counter-attack with diversionary tactics. I am qualified to call out those tactics, though, since they involve you attributing to me things I never said.

I remember an old game I played once during a youth group outing to a county fair. The goal was to catch a greased pig. You're acting like that pig I tried to catch, only the pig didn't fight as much as you.

Now, back to my challenge to you. Show me where Paul uses the word "alone" in 2 Timothy 3:15-17, or admit that your whole doctrine of sola scriptura must be read into the text from outside, thus destroying your argument.
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« Reply #472 on: August 08, 2011, 03:02:46 PM »

it should not be understood "alone", but within the context of everything else and everything else should be understood in the context of scripture because they all proclaim the same message. Even if scripture is to be taken as "supreme" among all other things, it must be understood in the context of those things.

Good point.

All the elements of Holy Tradition—scripture, canons, liturgy, icons, the fathers, etc—check and balance each other. You cannot even set the Bible apart from the rest, because the Bible is worthless all by itself. Interpretive anarchy and theological forensics are worthless.

We know what the Bible means because the icons and Fathers say the same thing. We know what to paint in icons because it's in the Bible and the Fathers. We know the Fathers are correct because it's in the Bible and icons. It's all one. Nothing stands on its own; everything stands by virtue of its synergy with everything else.
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« Reply #473 on: August 08, 2011, 04:11:05 PM »

Do you agree with Paul?

Paul says the Bible is alone in that every verse is inspired by God to be beneficial for doctrine, that the man of God be complete.

Do you believe this, or do you have other books apart from the Bible, Greek poets etc, whose every sentence is inspired by God and beneficial for doctrine?

That is what we are arguing about.

Do you believe the Bible stands alone, apart from all other literature, as uniquely inspired by God, or is it just one book among many books where God's truth can be found, in the midst of much that is simply wrong?
Now, Alfred, you know very well that I believe the Bible to be a unique book.

[On a side issue: we must recognize that the Bible was not written as a book in the way we commonly use the term. It is a collection of writings. That is obvious in Orthodox services as the Gospel, the Epistles, and OT Readings are read from different volumes. The word "Bible" is not even found in the Bible.]

But I do disagree with your contention that "Paul says the Bible alone...." Undoubtedly St Paul and I do agree that the Holy Scriptures were inspired by God in their writing and in their compilation, but nowhere does Paul say "the Bible alone". So yes, I agree with St Paul, but apparently you don't, because you insist on inserting the word "alone".

So what other literature did God inspire so that every sentence was profitable for doctrine, to equip the man of God fully?

You obviously aren't speaking to me here, as I said plainly: "I believe the Bible to be a unique book".

Quote
The straw man "the word isn't there so your wrong" is just bs...you gents (and gals) have lost the argument, not because I'm a great debater, but because the Orthodox position on this is indefensible.
You feel quite free to misquote St Paul. (Yes, you did: "Paul says the Bible alone..." Chapter and verse, please.) I really don't know what argument you think you're winning.
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« Reply #474 on: August 08, 2011, 05:57:52 PM »

So what other literature did God inspire so that every sentence was profitable for doctrine, to equip the man of God fully?

I need the list, otherwise the Bible is "alone" in that regard, that is a logical deduction.

The straw man "the word isn't there so your wrong" is just bs...you gents (and gals) have lost the argument, not because I'm a great debater, but because the Orthodox position on this is indefensible.

But when Paul wrote it, the New Testament didn't exist - much of it hadn't been written yet.  So how could Paul know that, for example, the apostle John was going to get exiled on Patmos and write the Apocalypse? and that it would later be considered inspired enough to be part of the New Testament?

(Oh, and I thought you wanted this to be a dialogue, not an argument.  Huh )
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« Reply #475 on: August 08, 2011, 07:19:00 PM »

Quote from: theistgal
But when Paul wrote it, the New Testament didn't exist - much of it hadn't been written yet.  So how could Paul know that, for example, the apostle John was going to get exiled on Patmos and write the Apocalypse? and that it would later be considered inspired enough to be part of the New Testament?

Ding ding ding! We have a winner!  Smiley
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« Reply #476 on: August 08, 2011, 09:14:35 PM »

Do you agree with Paul?

Paul says the Bible is alone in that every verse is inspired by God to be beneficial for doctrine, that the man of God be complete.

Do you believe this, or do you have other books apart from the Bible, Greek poets etc, whose every sentence is inspired by God and beneficial for doctrine?

That is what we are arguing about.

Do you believe the Bible stands alone, apart from all other literature, as uniquely inspired by God, or is it just one book among many books where God's truth can be found, in the midst of much that is simply wrong?
Now, Alfred, you know very well that I believe the Bible to be a unique book.

[On a side issue: we must recognize that the Bible was not written as a book in the way we commonly use the term. It is a collection of writings. That is obvious in Orthodox services as the Gospel, the Epistles, and OT Readings are read from different volumes. The word "Bible" is not even found in the Bible.]

But I do disagree with your contention that "Paul says the Bible alone...." Undoubtedly St Paul and I do agree that the Holy Scriptures were inspired by God in their writing and in their compilation, but nowhere does Paul say "the Bible alone". So yes, I agree with St Paul, but apparently you don't, because you insist on inserting the word "alone".

So what other literature did God inspire so that every sentence was profitable for doctrine, to equip the man of God fully?

You obviously aren't speaking to me here, as I said plainly: "I believe the Bible to be a unique book".

Quote
The straw man "the word isn't there so your wrong" is just bs...you gents (and gals) have lost the argument, not because I'm a great debater, but because the Orthodox position on this is indefensible.
You feel quite free to misquote St Paul. (Yes, you did: "Paul says the Bible alone..." Chapter and verse, please.) I really don't know what argument you think you're winning.

As the Bible is unique, it is "alone".

I'm gonna prove Jesus taught sola scriptura in Mat 23, and Paul that scripture alone is God's means of equipping the saints, in another thread dedicated to that.

So toughen up your strawmen, break out the lexicons of ad hominem, you will need every tool to evade the truth...cause I'm gonna run over every excuse, evasion, misdirection and non sequitur, like a stampede from God.

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« Reply #477 on: August 08, 2011, 09:17:55 PM »

Which brings us to... kitten time.

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« Reply #478 on: August 08, 2011, 09:34:18 PM »

I'm gonna prove Jesus taught sola scriptura in Mat 23

LOL! WHAT?!

Jesus taught sola scriptura? I never thought you could beat the chronological confusion that you've already been professing.
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« Reply #479 on: August 08, 2011, 09:38:42 PM »

Which brings us to... kitten time.

Cute interracial couple... I'm glad kittens don't have the hang-ups some humans do  Smiley
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« Reply #480 on: August 08, 2011, 09:40:07 PM »

Jesus could not possibly have taught sola scriptura. Not only is it a Lutheran tenet proclaimed in the 1500s, but there is this verse, to which Alfred still hasn't responded:

John 21:25 (KJV)

And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.


So, one of the Gospels itself, one of the keystones of your Bible, says that there is not a complete record of the words and actions of Jesus. Therefore, how could Jesus have taught that only the Bible is sufficient for salvation?

 Huh
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« Reply #481 on: August 08, 2011, 09:40:07 PM »

Of course Jesus taught Sola Scriptura, he carried with him all 27 NT books and used them as a rehersal. The Rapture is the big show followed by an encore of the Second Coming.

Sometimes I wish the Bible never existed because of people like Alfred.
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« Reply #482 on: August 08, 2011, 09:56:07 PM »

Well, in the time of Jesus there was a Jewish version of sola scriptura, which the Sadducees held to. Hmm...


EDIT--just wanted to capitalize Jesus' name, which I didn't notice was lower case when I wrote it...
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« Reply #483 on: August 08, 2011, 09:58:09 PM »

Well, in the time of jesus there was a Jewish version of sola scriptura, which the Sadducees held to. Hmm...

 Wink Zing!
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« Reply #484 on: August 08, 2011, 09:59:25 PM »

Jesus could not possibly have taught sola scriptura. Not only is it a Lutheran tenet proclaimed in the 1500s, but there is this verse, to which Alfred still hasn't responded:

John 21:25 (KJV)

And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.


So, one of the Gospels itself, one of the keystones of your Bible, says that there is not a complete record of the words and actions of Jesus. Therefore, how could Jesus have taught that only the Bible is sufficient for salvation?

 Huh

St John was just being polite in his epilogue. Jesus sat around the rest of the time. The ~18 days of his life recorded in the Bible are the only things he did that were worth mentioning.
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« Reply #485 on: August 08, 2011, 10:06:38 PM »

Of course Jesus taught Sola Scriptura, he carried with him all 27 NT books and used them as a rehersal. The Rapture is the big show followed by an encore of the Second Coming.

Sometimes I wish the Bible never existed because of people like Alfred.

If I recall correctly, in one of his sermons St John Chrysostom said that if the Bible had never existed, the Church's teachings would be exactly the same as they are now. The Bible is a condescension for human weakness, not an ontological necessity. (The proof is in the pudding: the Church survived underground for centuries when scriptures were scarce, incomplete, and expensive.)

Indeed, if the Bible had never existed it would not harm the Gospel that the Church preaches—Jesus Christ.
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« Reply #486 on: August 08, 2011, 11:58:00 PM »


I'm gonna prove Jesus taught sola scriptura in Mat 23, and Paul that scripture alone is God's means of equipping the saints, in another thread dedicated to that.

So toughen up your strawmen, break out the lexicons of ad hominem, you will need every tool to evade the truth...cause I'm gonna run over every excuse, evasion, misdirection and non sequitur, like a stampede from God.


Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo .... can we all agree not to post on that thread?  {Wishful thinking?}
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« Reply #487 on: August 09, 2011, 01:49:13 AM »

Do you agree with Paul?

Paul says the Bible is alone in that every verse is inspired by God to be beneficial for doctrine, that the man of God be complete.

Do you believe this, or do you have other books apart from the Bible, Greek poets etc, whose every sentence is inspired by God and beneficial for doctrine?

That is what we are arguing about.

Do you believe the Bible stands alone, apart from all other literature, as uniquely inspired by God, or is it just one book among many books where God's truth can be found, in the midst of much that is simply wrong?
Now, Alfred, you know very well that I believe the Bible to be a unique book.

[On a side issue: we must recognize that the Bible was not written as a book in the way we commonly use the term. It is a collection of writings. That is obvious in Orthodox services as the Gospel, the Epistles, and OT Readings are read from different volumes. The word "Bible" is not even found in the Bible.]

But I do disagree with your contention that "Paul says the Bible alone...." Undoubtedly St Paul and I do agree that the Holy Scriptures were inspired by God in their writing and in their compilation, but nowhere does Paul say "the Bible alone". So yes, I agree with St Paul, but apparently you don't, because you insist on inserting the word "alone".

So what other literature did God inspire so that every sentence was profitable for doctrine, to equip the man of God fully?

You obviously aren't speaking to me here, as I said plainly: "I believe the Bible to be a unique book".

Quote
The straw man "the word isn't there so your wrong" is just bs...you gents (and gals) have lost the argument, not because I'm a great debater, but because the Orthodox position on this is indefensible.
You feel quite free to misquote St Paul. (Yes, you did: "Paul says the Bible alone..." Chapter and verse, please.) I really don't know what argument you think you're winning.

As the Bible is unique, it is "alone".

I'm gonna prove Jesus taught sola scriptura in Mat 23, and Paul that scripture alone is God's means of equipping the saints, in another thread dedicated to that.

So toughen up your strawmen, break out the lexicons of ad hominem, you will need every tool to evade the truth...cause I'm gonna run over every excuse, evasion, misdirection and non sequitur, like a stampede from God.
Oooh, I'm quaking in my boots! Shocked NOT!!! Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

You can't even engage a simple challenge to show where Paul says "Scripture ALONE" in 2 Timothy 3:15-17. Until you do, please forgive me for not taking your pompous boasts and pondefecations seriously.

Actually, I take back that request. I don't want your forgiveness. I'm just not going to take you seriously.
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« Reply #488 on: August 09, 2011, 02:05:11 AM »

Do you agree with Paul?

Paul says the Bible is alone in that every verse is inspired by God to be beneficial for doctrine, that the man of God be complete.

Do you believe this, or do you have other books apart from the Bible, Greek poets etc, whose every sentence is inspired by God and beneficial for doctrine?

That is what we are arguing about.

Do you believe the Bible stands alone, apart from all other literature, as uniquely inspired by God, or is it just one book among many books where God's truth can be found, in the midst of much that is simply wrong?
Now, Alfred, you know very well that I believe the Bible to be a unique book.

[On a side issue: we must recognize that the Bible was not written as a book in the way we commonly use the term. It is a collection of writings. That is obvious in Orthodox services as the Gospel, the Epistles, and OT Readings are read from different volumes. The word "Bible" is not even found in the Bible.]

But I do disagree with your contention that "Paul says the Bible alone...." Undoubtedly St Paul and I do agree that the Holy Scriptures were inspired by God in their writing and in their compilation, but nowhere does Paul say "the Bible alone". So yes, I agree with St Paul, but apparently you don't, because you insist on inserting the word "alone".

So what other literature did God inspire so that every sentence was profitable for doctrine, to equip the man of God fully?

You obviously aren't speaking to me here, as I said plainly: "I believe the Bible to be a unique book".

Quote
The straw man "the word isn't there so your wrong" is just bs...you gents (and gals) have lost the argument, not because I'm a great debater, but because the Orthodox position on this is indefensible.
You feel quite free to misquote St Paul. (Yes, you did: "Paul says the Bible alone..." Chapter and verse, please.) I really don't know what argument you think you're winning.

As the Bible is unique, it is "alone".

There are a lot of things that are "alone."  Sitting in front of a computer screen is an example of being "alone."
 
I'm gonna prove Jesus taught sola scriptura in Mat 23, and Paul that scripture alone is God's means of equipping the saints, in another thread dedicated to that.

You haven't proven anything and you know it.

So toughen up your strawmen, break out the lexicons of ad hominem, you will need every tool to evade the truth...cause I'm gonna run over every excuse, evasion, misdirection and non sequitur, like a stampede from God.

Have you been to the Calgary Stampede?  2012 is the 100th Anniversary; Book a flight + hotel room (or drive there, need valid US Passport to enter Canada) and enjoy yourself.
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« Reply #489 on: August 09, 2011, 02:56:29 AM »

I'm gonna prove Jesus taught sola scriptura in Mat 23

LOL! WHAT?!

Jesus taught sola scriptura? I never thought you could beat the chronological confusion that you've already been professing.

Sola scriptura is sola verbum dei after the death of the last apostle, which is when the  word of God ceased being delivered to the church:

Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. (Jud 1:3 NKJ)


As the Word of God is no longer being delivered, Christ's sola verbum dei becomes sola scriptura today, now that all of God's undisputed word is found only in our Bibles.

Every other record of God's Word being textually suspect.


Sola verbum dei is correctly identified as only word God spoke through in the Law, the prophets, and the writings which for Christians includes the 27 books of the New Testament.

The Word of God was never channeled through Catholic or Orthodox churches, only the Jews were entrusted with the oracles of God---the apostles being the last Jews so privileged, communicated the Word of God to humanity:

NKJ  Romans 3:1 What advantage then has the Jew, or what is the profit of circumcision?
 2 Much in every way! Chiefly because to them were committed the oracles of God.
 3 For what if some did not believe? Will their unbelief make the faithfulness of God without effect?
 4 Certainly not!  (Rom 3:1-4 NKJ)

In context Paul denies the tongues, prophecy and knowledge gifts of the Holy Spirit evident among the Corinthians, is the "word of God:"

36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached?
 37 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.
 38 But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant.
 39 Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues. (1Co 14:36-39 NKJ)

Therefore the claims of Catholic, Orthodox, Pentecostal Protestant, and many cults the Spirit is communicating the Word of God through them, is in every case a lie, being directly contradicted by Paul's express denial the Corinthians were receiving the Word of God directly, and not through the apostles.

Paul stated everyone really guided by the Holy Spirit---will acknowledge the truth of these things. It is apostolic doctrine.
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« Reply #490 on: August 09, 2011, 06:29:52 AM »

You made that up.
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« Reply #491 on: August 09, 2011, 08:29:29 AM »

You have this way of 'reading things that aren't there' and then 'using it as proof' against 'something that isn't there'.
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« Reply #492 on: August 09, 2011, 09:54:43 AM »

Therefore the claims of Catholic, Orthodox, Pentecostal Protestant, and many cults the Spirit is communicating the Word of God through them, is in every case a lie, being directly contradicted by Paul's express denial the Corinthians were receiving the Word of God directly, and not through the apostles.

Paul stated everyone really guided by the Holy Spirit---will acknowledge the truth of these things. It is apostolic doctrine.
And what qualifies you - and you alone (does that make you unique, or is it the other way around?) - to determine who is and who is "really guided by the Holy Spirit"?
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« Reply #493 on: August 09, 2011, 09:58:07 AM »

Alfie!

You know we are purists here!

Lexica! Lexica! Lexica!
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« Reply #494 on: August 09, 2011, 10:18:42 AM »

As the Word of God is no longer being delivered

Hmm, no, this priest is delivering the Word of God.



now that all of God's undisputed word is found only in our Bibles.



Note the Holy Spirit. Don't blaspheme His movement in His Church.

Sola verbum dei is correctly identified as only word God spoke through in the Law, the prophets, and the writings which for Christians includes the 27 books of the New Testament.

By you.

The Word of God was never channeled through Catholic or Orthodox churches

Like the New Testament.

The Apostles were cultural Jews. They were religious Christians: if not before Pentecost, then certainly after, when the New Testament was written. Therefore it was written by the Apostles and Bishops of the Orthodox-Catholic Church, since all Christians were members of that said Church at the time.

being directly contradicted by Paul's express denial the Corinthians were receiving the Word of God directly, and not through the apostles.

Generalizing the particular: the greatest error of sola scriptura.
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