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Author Topic: The Problem of Hell and a loving God  (Read 16553 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: July 23, 2011, 08:01:33 PM »

I wonder how many people wouldn't believe this stuff if it weren't for the 'Left Behind' books and bad televangelism?  Huh

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« Reply #46 on: July 23, 2011, 09:58:14 PM »

This is not what you originally said.  Your Scripture quotes also do not back up what you said.

BUT, its very clear He has a personal relationship with each individual child...and resents it being diminished.

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« Reply #47 on: July 24, 2011, 10:40:41 AM »

While Hades is relevant to the millennial kingdom, the millennial kingdom isn't necessary to the discussion of Hades.

My Explaining why the 1000 year reign of Christ is necessary was on a last "blurb" on the topic till we returned to talk about it.


I was postponing conversation about it to discuss Hades, but was giving one last statement why I believe the millennial kingdom is absolutely necessary.

The millennial kingdom is NECESSARY because billions of people ignored the preaching of the Gospel, or never heard it, when Christ arrives.

As faith is necessary to salvation, and "faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" (Heb 11:1 NKJ), its clear these cannot be saved, for they cannot excercise faith, they SEE everything, it no longer requires faith to believe in Christ, He is standing there in front of everyone.


God can't let these into the kingdom without being saved, can He? OF COURSE NOT, therefore God does what He did in the past with the Israelites, another dispensation of law returns for a 1,000 years, hence Ezekiel's Temple is different than the Mosaic Temple, its requirements different, and its much more glorious.

But salvation by grace through faith is NOW, not in God's Millennial kingdom, for then faith is impossible.

Had these billions of unbelievers died before Christ returned, they would have went to Hades, and SOME would repent upon learning the truth of the gospel would "live according to God in the spirit" 1 Pet 4:6 and then be saved in the Day of the Lord Jesus, at the final resurrection (1 Cor 5:5; Rev 20:11ff)

But they didn't die, and God isn't going to kill them now.

So the 1,000 year reign of Christ is to test them, weed out those not written in the Lamb's book of life, and it culminates with Satan being let out of his prison, to tempt these once more...and many of them fail the test:


7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison
 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea.
 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.
 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
 (Rev 20:7-10 NKJ)


Where are we who believe now, in this life, during the 1,000 year reign? We reign with Christ during this time, as His kings and priests:


 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
 7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison
 (Rev 20:4-7 NKJ)


These things are plainly stated in scripture, which is why its the consensus of the fathers chilasm is apostolic doctrine. Its odd the Orthodox believe their opinions are more mature than what the apostles taught, what the Bible says. But that issue is for another time IF you want to discuss Hades.

If you want to discuss the millennial kingdom, I'm fine with that also.

You choose.


While you're thinking that over, a little more on millennialism, Dan 12 fits perfectly:

 5 Then I, Daniel, looked; and there stood two others, one on this riverbank and the other on that riverbank.
 6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, "How long shall the fulfillment of these wonders be?"
 7 Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished.
 8 Although I heard, I did not understand. Then I said, "My lord, what shall be the end of these things?"
 9 And he said, "Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
 (Dan 12:5-9 NKJ)

There are two angels with a river between them to show this chapter applies to different ends, the first advent of Christ which begins the 1000 year reign, at the start of which shall be a resurrection, and an "out" resurrection...that is, "many" rise Dan 12:2, not "all" as this isn't the final resurrection in the Day of the Lord Jesus, Judgment Day. This resurrection applies to the many who were called, but few were chosen to become kings and priests of our God.

Then the 1000 year reign.

Christ (the man in linen above the waters) identifies this period by referring to the 3.5 years, "a time, times and half a time."

Verse 8. BUT Daniel knows this isn't the end and so he is confused, when will the END be?

In verse 11 the daily sacrifice is mentioned...this is in Ezekiel's prophesied Temple that will be built during the millennial kingdom. This is why the days are different, 1290 days is NOT 1260 days, the difference indicates this is about a different time, applying to the end of the Millennial kingdom, when Satan is let out and he leads Gog and Magog to attack those Israelites God regathered from the nations (Ezek. 38-39; Rev 20:7ff).

 11 "And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.
 12 "Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.
 13 "But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days." (Dan 12:11-13 NKJ)

So it all fits perfectly, and the ambiguity vanishes, when Rev 20 is married to Dan 12 and Ezek c. 38-39. And there are other texts.


ps: Many called, few chosen...called but failed to respond adequately, and "coincidentally" their names were not among those chosen before the founding of the world (Eph 1:4), written in the Lamb's book of life. What a coincidence! (Their blood is on their own head, they could have made it (Gen 4:7ff; Mat 13:15) had they not closed their hearts:


 26 "But his lord answered and said to him,`You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed.
 27 `So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest.
 28 `Therefore take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.
 29 `For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away.
 30 `And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
 (Mat 25:26-30 NKJ)
 
« Last Edit: July 24, 2011, 11:04:03 AM by Alfred Persson » Logged

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« Reply #48 on: July 24, 2011, 12:22:44 PM »

Millenialism is a failed philosophy of the 19th Century.

It didn't work for the Seventh Day Adventists, it didn't work for the Jehovah's Witnesses, it didn't work for Harold Camping, and it's not what the Orthodox believe, because it's not true.

You can't just point to verses or pages in the Bible and say they mean what you want them to mean. We can do that, too.

Any of us may as well scan pages of our Bibles, or go to Bible Gateway and copy and paste everything. Then I could write two sentences about it, and say, "See? I was right."

I suspect it still wouldn't make a difference, to someone who's here to engage in monologues and sophistry.
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« Reply #49 on: July 24, 2011, 01:21:27 PM »

Millenialism is a failed philosophy of the 19th Century.

It didn't work for the Seventh Day Adventists, it didn't work for the Jehovah's Witnesses, it didn't work for Harold Camping, and it's not what the Orthodox believe, because it's not true.

You can't just point to verses or pages in the Bible and say they mean what you want them to mean. We can do that, too.

Any of us may as well scan pages of our Bibles, or go to Bible Gateway and copy and paste everything. Then I could write two sentences about it, and say, "See? I was right."

I suspect it still wouldn't make a difference, to someone who's here to engage in monologues and sophistry.

Incorrect:

Chapter XXXIII.—Further Proofs of the Same Proposition, Drawn from the Promises Made by Christ, When He Declared that He Would Drink of the Fruit of the Vine with His Disciples in His Father’s Kingdom, While at the Same Time He Promised to Reward Them an Hundred-Fold, and to Make Them Partake of Banquets. The Blessing Pronounced by Jacob Had Pointed Out This Already, as Papias and the Elders Have Interpreted It.

1. For this reason, when about to undergo His sufferings, that He might declare to Abraham and those with him the glad tidings of the inheritance being thrown open, [Christ], after He had given thanks while holding the cup, and had drunk of it, and given it to the disciples, said to them: “Drink ye all of it: this is My blood of the new covenant, which shall be shed for many for the remission of sins. But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of the fruit of this vine, until that day when I will drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”284 Thus, then, He will Himself renew the inheritance of the earth, and will re-organize the mystery of the glory of [His] sons; as David says, “He who hath renewed the face of the earth.”285 He promised to drink of the fruit of the vine with His disciples, thus indicating both these points: the inheritance of the earth in which the new fruit of the vine is drunk, and the resurrection of His disciples in the flesh. For the new flesh which rises again is the same which also received the new cup. And He cannot by any means be understood as drinking of the fruit of the vine when settled down with his [disciples] above in a super-celestial place; nor, again, are they who drink it devoid of flesh, for to drink of that which flows from the vine pertains to flesh, and not spirit.

2. And for this reason the Lord declared, “When thou makest a dinner or a supper, do not call thy friends, nor thy neighbours, nor thy kinsfolk, lest they ask thee in return, and so repay thee. But call the lame, the blind, and the poor, and thou shall be blessed, since they cannot recompense thee, but a recompense shall be made thee at the resurrection of the just.”286 And again He says, “Whosoever shall have left lands, or houses, or parents, or brethren, or children because of Me, he shall receive in this world an hundred-fold, and in that to come he shall inherit eternal life.”287 For what are the hundred-fold [rewards] in this word, the entertainments given to the poor, and the suppers for which a return is made? These are [to take place] in the times of the kingdom, that is, upon the seventh day, which has been sanctified, in which God rested from all the works which He created, which is the true Sabbath of the righteous, which they shall not be engaged in any earthly occupation; but shall have a table at hand prepared for them by God, supplying them with all sorts of dishes.

3. The blessing of Isaac with which he blessed his younger son Jacob has the same meaning, when he says, “Behold, the smell of my son is as the smell of a full field which the Lord has blessed.”288 But “the field is the world.”289 And therefore he added, “God give to thee of the dew of heaven, and of the fatness of the earth, plenty of corn and wine. And let the nations serve thee, and kings bow down to thee; and be thou lord over thy brother, and thy father’s sons shall bow down to thee: cursed shall be he who shall curse thee, and blessed shall be he who shall bless thee.”290 If any one, then, does not accept these things as referring to the appointed kingdom, he must fall into much contradiction and contrariety, as is the case with the Jews, who are involved in absolute perplexity. For not only did not the nations in this life serve this Jacob; but even after he had received the blessing, he himself going forth [from his home], served his uncle Laban the Syrian for twenty years;291 and not only was he not made lord of his brother, but he did himself bow down before his brother Esau, upon his return from Mesopotamia to his father, and offered many gifts to him.292 Moreover, in what way did he inherit much corn and wine here, he who emigrated to Egypt because of the famine which possessed the land in which he was dwelling, and became Subject to Pharaoh, who was then ruling over Egypt? The predicted blessing, therefore, belongs unquestionably to the times of the kingdom, when the righteous shall bear rule upon their rising from the dead;293 when also the creation, having been renovated and set free, shall fructify with an abundance of all kinds of food, from the dew of heaven, and from the fertility of the earth: as the elders who saw John, the disciple of the Lord, related that they had heard from him how the Lord used to teach in regard to these times, and say: The days will come, in which vines shall grow, each having ten thousand branches, and in each branch ten thousand twigs, and in each true294 twig ten thousand shoots, and in each one of the shoots ten thousand dusters, and on every one of the clusters ten thousand grapes, and every grape when pressed will give five and twenty metretes of wine. And when any one of the saints shall lay hold of a cluster,295 another shall cry out, “I am a better cluster, take me; bless the Lord through me.” In like manner [the Lord declared] that a grain of wheat would produce ten thousand ears, and that every ear should have ten thousand grains, and every grain would yield ten pounds (quinque bilibres) of clear, pure, fine flour; and that all other fruit-bearing trees,296 and seeds and grass, would produce in similar proportions (secundum congruentiam iis consequentem); and that all animals feeding [only] on the productions of the earth, should [in those days] become peaceful and harmonious among each other, and be in perfect subjection to man.

4. And these things are bone witness to in writing by Papias, the hearer of John, and a companion of Polycarp, in his fourth book; for there were five books compiled (συντεταγμένα) by him.297 And he says in addition, “Now these things are credible to believers.” And he says that, “when the traitor Judas did not give credit to them, and put the question, ‘How then can things about to bring forth so abundantly be wrought by the Lord? ’the Lord declared, ‘They who shall come to these [times] shall see.’”

Roberts, Alexander ;  Donaldson, James ;   Coxe, A. Cleveland: The Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol.I  : Translations of the Writings of the Fathers Down to A.D. 325. Oak Harbor : Logos Research Systems, 1997, S. 562
« Last Edit: July 24, 2011, 01:22:07 PM by Alfred Persson » Logged

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« Reply #50 on: July 24, 2011, 01:38:07 PM »

Your reply has pretty much nothing to do with what I posted.
 
Huh

Tongue

In other words, par for the course.
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« Reply #51 on: July 24, 2011, 02:19:24 PM »

Your reply has pretty much nothing to do with what I posted.
 
Huh

Tongue

In other words, par for the course.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1QI4P0YqtM&feature=related
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« Reply #52 on: July 24, 2011, 03:30:59 PM »

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« Reply #53 on: July 24, 2011, 03:41:57 PM »

LMAO
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« Reply #54 on: July 24, 2011, 06:36:39 PM »

Millenialism is a failed philosophy of the 19th Century.

It didn't work for the Seventh Day Adventists, it didn't work for the Jehovah's Witnesses, it didn't work for Harold Camping, and it's not what the Orthodox believe, because it's not true.

You can't just point to verses or pages in the Bible and say they mean what you want them to mean. We can do that, too.

Any of us may as well scan pages of our Bibles, or go to Bible Gateway and copy and paste everything. Then I could write two sentences about it, and say, "See? I was right."

I suspect it still wouldn't make a difference, to someone who's here to engage in monologues and sophistry.
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« Reply #55 on: July 25, 2011, 12:56:52 AM »

Your reply has pretty much nothing to do with what I posted.
 
Huh

Tongue

In other words, par for the course.


You claimed 19th century, but Papias is mid 2nd century, your claim loses. End of story.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2011, 12:58:10 AM by Alfred Persson » Logged

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« Reply #56 on: July 25, 2011, 03:09:36 AM »

Millenialism is a failed philosophy of the 19th Century.

It didn't work for the Seventh Day Adventists, it didn't work for the Jehovah's Witnesses, it didn't work for Harold Camping, and it's not what the Orthodox believe, because it's not true.

You can't just point to verses or pages in the Bible and say they mean what you want them to mean. We can do that, too.

Any of us may as well scan pages of our Bibles, or go to Bible Gateway and copy and paste everything. Then I could write two sentences about it, and say, "See? I was right."

I suspect it still wouldn't make a difference, to someone who's here to engage in monologues and sophistry.

Incorrect:

Chapter XXXIII.—Further Proofs of the Same Proposition, Drawn from the Promises Made by Christ, When He Declared that He Would Drink of the Fruit of the Vine with His Disciples in His Father’s Kingdom, While at the Same Time He Promised to Reward Them an Hundred-Fold, and to Make Them Partake of Banquets. The Blessing Pronounced by Jacob Had Pointed Out This Already, as Papias and the Elders Have Interpreted It.

1. For this reason, when about to undergo His sufferings, that He might declare to Abraham and those with him the glad tidings of the inheritance being thrown open, [Christ], after He had given thanks while holding the cup, and had drunk of it, and given it to the disciples, said to them: “Drink ye all of it: this is My blood of the new covenant, which shall be shed for many for the remission of sins. But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of the fruit of this vine, until that day when I will drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”284 Thus, then, He will Himself renew the inheritance of the earth, and will re-organize the mystery of the glory of [His] sons; as David says, “He who hath renewed the face of the earth.”285 He promised to drink of the fruit of the vine with His disciples, thus indicating both these points: the inheritance of the earth in which the new fruit of the vine is drunk, and the resurrection of His disciples in the flesh. For the new flesh which rises again is the same which also received the new cup. And He cannot by any means be understood as drinking of the fruit of the vine when settled down with his [disciples] above in a super-celestial place; nor, again, are they who drink it devoid of flesh, for to drink of that which flows from the vine pertains to flesh, and not spirit.

2. And for this reason the Lord declared, “When thou makest a dinner or a supper, do not call thy friends, nor thy neighbours, nor thy kinsfolk, lest they ask thee in return, and so repay thee. But call the lame, the blind, and the poor, and thou shall be blessed, since they cannot recompense thee, but a recompense shall be made thee at the resurrection of the just.”286 And again He says, “Whosoever shall have left lands, or houses, or parents, or brethren, or children because of Me, he shall receive in this world an hundred-fold, and in that to come he shall inherit eternal life.”287 For what are the hundred-fold [rewards] in this word, the entertainments given to the poor, and the suppers for which a return is made? These are [to take place] in the times of the kingdom, that is, upon the seventh day, which has been sanctified, in which God rested from all the works which He created, which is the true Sabbath of the righteous, which they shall not be engaged in any earthly occupation; but shall have a table at hand prepared for them by God, supplying them with all sorts of dishes.

3. The blessing of Isaac with which he blessed his younger son Jacob has the same meaning, when he says, “Behold, the smell of my son is as the smell of a full field which the Lord has blessed.”288 But “the field is the world.”289 And therefore he added, “God give to thee of the dew of heaven, and of the fatness of the earth, plenty of corn and wine. And let the nations serve thee, and kings bow down to thee; and be thou lord over thy brother, and thy father’s sons shall bow down to thee: cursed shall be he who shall curse thee, and blessed shall be he who shall bless thee.”290 If any one, then, does not accept these things as referring to the appointed kingdom, he must fall into much contradiction and contrariety, as is the case with the Jews, who are involved in absolute perplexity. For not only did not the nations in this life serve this Jacob; but even after he had received the blessing, he himself going forth [from his home], served his uncle Laban the Syrian for twenty years;291 and not only was he not made lord of his brother, but he did himself bow down before his brother Esau, upon his return from Mesopotamia to his father, and offered many gifts to him.292 Moreover, in what way did he inherit much corn and wine here, he who emigrated to Egypt because of the famine which possessed the land in which he was dwelling, and became Subject to Pharaoh, who was then ruling over Egypt? The predicted blessing, therefore, belongs unquestionably to the times of the kingdom, when the righteous shall bear rule upon their rising from the dead;293 when also the creation, having been renovated and set free, shall fructify with an abundance of all kinds of food, from the dew of heaven, and from the fertility of the earth: as the elders who saw John, the disciple of the Lord, related that they had heard from him how the Lord used to teach in regard to these times, and say: The days will come, in which vines shall grow, each having ten thousand branches, and in each branch ten thousand twigs, and in each true294 twig ten thousand shoots, and in each one of the shoots ten thousand dusters, and on every one of the clusters ten thousand grapes, and every grape when pressed will give five and twenty metretes of wine. And when any one of the saints shall lay hold of a cluster,295 another shall cry out, “I am a better cluster, take me; bless the Lord through me.” In like manner [the Lord declared] that a grain of wheat would produce ten thousand ears, and that every ear should have ten thousand grains, and every grain would yield ten pounds (quinque bilibres) of clear, pure, fine flour; and that all other fruit-bearing trees,296 and seeds and grass, would produce in similar proportions (secundum congruentiam iis consequentem); and that all animals feeding [only] on the productions of the earth, should [in those days] become peaceful and harmonious among each other, and be in perfect subjection to man.

4. And these things are bone witness to in writing by Papias, the hearer of John, and a companion of Polycarp, in his fourth book; for there were five books compiled (συντεταγμένα) by him.297 And he says in addition, “Now these things are credible to believers.” And he says that, “when the traitor Judas did not give credit to them, and put the question, ‘How then can things about to bring forth so abundantly be wrought by the Lord? ’the Lord declared, ‘They who shall come to these [times] shall see.’”

Roberts, Alexander ;  Donaldson, James ;   Coxe, A. Cleveland: The Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol.I  : Translations of the Writings of the Fathers Down to A.D. 325. Oak Harbor : Logos Research Systems, 1997, S. 562
Alfred,

When you type or copy merely the text of the writing itself, the bibliographical reference is enough. However, you also copied even the footnote numbering, which means that you are also legally responsible to post the link to the exact Web page from which you copied the above text. The bibliographical reference you provided does not do that. You therefore have 72 hours (12:00 a.m., PDT, Thursday, July 28) to post a link to the Web page from which you copied the above text. If you fail to comply with this moderatorial directive, you will be placed immediately on post moderation for plagiarism and for continued violation of forum rules. If you disagree with this action, please appeal it via private message to Fr. George.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2011, 03:49:05 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #57 on: July 25, 2011, 03:47:08 AM »

Your reply has pretty much nothing to do with what I posted.
 
Huh

Tongue

In other words, par for the course.


You claimed 19th century, but Papias is mid 2nd century, your claim loses. End of story.
BTW, you didn't quote Papias. You quoted St. Irenaeus, who made passing reference to Papias.

Your quote of St. Irenaeus also says nothing about millennialism. Therefore, biro is right. Your reply has virtually nothing to do with what biro posted about millennialism being a failed philosophy of the 19th Century.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2011, 03:53:02 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #58 on: July 25, 2011, 04:36:43 AM »

Quote
Hell, then, is not primarily a place where God sends people in his wrath, or where God displays anger, but rather, it is the love of God, experienced by one who is not in communion with him. The figurative, spiritual fire of God's love is transcendent joy to the person purified and transfigured by it through communion in the body of Christ, but bottomless despair and suffering to the person who rejects it, and chooses to remain in communion with death.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eric-simpson/understanding-hell-as-the_b_705988.html
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« Reply #59 on: July 25, 2011, 05:37:34 AM »

Quote
Hell, then, is not primarily a place where God sends people in his wrath, or where God displays anger, but rather, it is the love of God, experienced by one who is not in communion with him. The figurative, spiritual fire of God's love is transcendent joy to the person purified and transfigured by it through communion in the body of Christ, but bottomless despair and suffering to the person who rejects it, and chooses to remain in communion with death.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eric-simpson/understanding-hell-as-the_b_705988.html

The teaching that heaven and hell are the same thing, i.e. God's love, but experienced differently has become extremely popular among the Orthodox since 1980.   In July 1980, Alexander Kalomiros delivered a lecture at the Youth Conference of a Russian Orthodox Church Abroad parish in Seattle.

The lecture was called "The River of Fire" and in it Kalomiros (eternal memory!) expounded the idea of heaven and hell both being the same thing - the love of God as experienced differently by both the redeemed and the damned.   

The Conference was attended by Archbishop Vitaly of Canada, later the First Hierarch of then Russian Church Abroad.   He was wrapt in this teaching and ordered that the lecture be translated and published in English and Russian and French.   It spread very rapidly throughout the Orthodox world since it appeals very strongly to most people (as it did to me originally) because it removes the burden of judgement and punishment from God Himself.

The teaching is not fully accepted within Orthodoxy as our traditional faith, and it seems that reaction against it is growing.

So the Russian Church Abroad has popularised within the Orthodox world three questionable teachings.

1.  "The Dogma of Redemption" by Metropolitan Anthony Khrapovitsky,
            originally received as enthusiastically as "The River of Fire" but now generally viewed as heretical

2.  "Life After Death" by Hieromonk Seraphim Rose

3.  "The River of Fire" by Alexander Kalomiros.
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« Reply #60 on: July 25, 2011, 06:11:26 AM »

See message 17
at
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,33295.msg527201.html#msg527201


1.  "The Dogma of Redemption" by Metropolitan Anthony Khrapovitsky,
            originally received as enthusiastically as "The River of Fire" but now generally viewed as heretical

2.  "Life After Death" by Hieromonk Seraphim Rose

3.  "The River of Fire" by Alexander Kalomiros.
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« Reply #61 on: July 25, 2011, 02:19:47 PM »

I was postponing conversation about it to discuss Hades, but was giving one last statement why I believe the millennial kingdom is absolutely necessary.

So, if we leave the whole milleniumn thing out of the picture, "hades" could simply refer to the state/place/experience of the soul being seperated from the body between the time of death and when it is reunited to the body in the resurrection, some to life and some to condemnation.

Quote
The millennial kingdom is NECESSARY because billions of people ignored the preaching of the Gospel,

If they heard the (correct) preaching of the Gospel, then they did receive the call and the invitation to the wedding feast. If they rejected that message as a rejection of what they know to be right (only God really knows why people do the things they do sometimes), then they would fall under condemnation for refusing the invitation received.

Quote
or never heard it, when Christ arrives.

According to Matt 24:14 and Mark 13:10, This should not be an issue. Those living at Christ's return  will be preached the message of the Gospel. Scripture says many will be unaware when He returns, but it will be like in the days of Noah when Noah gave warning to all the people and those who ignored it perished while those who heeded it (his wife and sons and sons' wives) were saved from destruction.

As for those who perish before then, after the time when the Psalms were written, Christ took on death and made himself known in hades when he preached to the spirits in prison. Eph 4:9-10 says that when he first descended into the lower parts of the earth and then ascended into heaven "that He might fill all things".

Quote
As faith is necessary to salvation, and "faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" (Heb 11:1 NKJ), its clear these cannot be saved, for they cannot excercise faith, they SEE everything, it no longer requires faith to believe in Christ, He is standing there in front of everyone.

This is why we believe this is when everyone will be raised and judged.

Quote
God can't let these into the kingdom without being saved, can He? OF COURSE NOT, therefore God does what He did in the past with the Israelites, another dispensation of law returns for a 1,000 years, hence Ezekiel's Temple is different than the Mosaic Temple, its requirements different, and its much more glorious.

The Law never justified anyone, with one exception, Christ. This is because the keeping of the Law only gives life to the one who keeps it perfectly. The keeping of the Law never saved anyone (except only the author of life who could not be kept by death) ever at anytime, and it's never going to.

Quote
But salvation by grace through faith is NOW, not in God's Millennial kingdom, for then faith is impossible.

I must admit, I agree to this, believeing that salvation by grace through faith in Christ is the only salvation offered.

Quote
Had these billions of unbelievers died before Christ returned, they would have went to Hades, and SOME would repent upon learning the truth of the gospel would "live according to God in the spirit" 1 Pet 4:6 and then be saved in the Day of the Lord Jesus, at the final resurrection (1 Cor 5:5; Rev 20:11ff)

I think there is agreement here.

Quote
But they didn't die, and God isn't going to kill them now.

No, Christ will make a point not to return until all the nations have had the Gospel preached to them.

Quote
So the 1,000 year reign of Christ is to test them, weed out those not written in the Lamb's book of life, and it culminates with Satan being let out of his prison, to tempt these once more...and many of them fail the test:

7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison
 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea.
 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.
 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
 (Rev 20:7-10 NKJ)

It sounds more like what this passage is trying to say is that no one will be tested during the thousand years, but will be tested after the thousand years when satan is released from his prison. That is, according to the passage quoted.

Quote
These things are plainly stated in scripture, which is why its the consensus of the fathers chilasm is apostolic doctrine. Its odd the Orthodox believe their opinions are more mature than what the apostles taught, what the Bible says.

St Justin Marytr who did believe in the thousand year reign had this to say
but, on the other hand, I signified to you that many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, think otherwise.

Quote
While you're thinking that over, a little more on millennialism, Dan 12 fits perfectly:

 5 Then I, Daniel, looked; and there stood two others, one on this riverbank and the other on that riverbank.
 6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, "How long shall the fulfillment of these wonders be?"
 7 Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished.
 8 Although I heard, I did not understand. Then I said, "My lord, what shall be the end of these things?"
 9 And he said, "Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
 (Dan 12:5-9 NKJ)

There are two angels with a river between them to show this chapter applies to different ends, the first advent of Christ which begins the 1000 year reign, at the start of which shall be a resurrection, and an "out" resurrection...that is, "many" rise Dan 12:2, not "all" as this isn't the final resurrection in the Day of the Lord Jesus, Judgment Day. This resurrection applies to the many who were called, but few were chosen to become kings and priests of our God.

Then the 1000 year reign.

Christ (the man in linen above the waters) identifies this period by referring to the 3.5 years, "a time, times and half a time."

Verse 8. BUT Daniel knows this isn't the end and so he is confused, when will the END be?

In verse 11 the daily sacrifice is mentioned...this is in Ezekiel's prophesied Temple that will be built during the millennial kingdom. This is why the days are different, 1290 days is NOT 1260 days, the difference indicates this is about a different time, applying to the end of the Millennial kingdom, when Satan is let out and he leads Gog and Magog to attack those Israelites God regathered from the nations (Ezek. 38-39; Rev 20:7ff).

 11 "And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.
 12 "Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.
 13 "But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days." (Dan 12:11-13 NKJ)

So it all fits perfectly, and the ambiguity vanishes, when Rev 20 is married to Dan 12 and Ezek c. 38-39. And there are other texts.

You forgot the preceding verses, especially verse 2. This does not seem to fit well with your understanding of the pre-millenial resurrection. Also "many" can in some cases refer to "all", for example "many" are called does not imply that God will refuse to call anyone that He created.

Daniel 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Quote
ps: Many called, few chosen...called but failed to respond adequately, and "coincidentally" their names were not among those chosen before the founding of the world (Eph 1:4), written in the Lamb's book of life. What a coincidence! (Their blood is on their own head, they could have made it (Gen 4:7ff; Mat 13:15) had they not closed their hearts:


 26 "But his lord answered and said to him,`You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed.
 27 `So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest.
 28 `Therefore take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.
 29 `For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away.
 30 `And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
 (Mat 25:26-30 NKJ)

So God foreknows who will respond positively, ensuring their election, and it is those who are predistined by being written in the book of life. God does not predetermine our response for us, but foreknows our reponse and predetermines how He deals with us according to our reponse to Him.

So, what (excluding millenialism) do you have to say about hades?
« Last Edit: July 25, 2011, 02:21:50 PM by Melodist » Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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« Reply #62 on: July 25, 2011, 02:57:19 PM »

Millenialism is a failed philosophy of the 19th Century.

It didn't work for the Seventh Day Adventists, it didn't work for the Jehovah's Witnesses, it didn't work for Harold Camping, and it's not what the Orthodox believe, because it's not true.

You can't just point to verses or pages in the Bible and say they mean what you want them to mean. We can do that, too.

Any of us may as well scan pages of our Bibles, or go to Bible Gateway and copy and paste everything. Then I could write two sentences about it, and say, "See? I was right."

I suspect it still wouldn't make a difference, to someone who's here to engage in monologues and sophistry.

Incorrect:

Chapter XXXIII.—Further Proofs of the Same Proposition, Drawn from the Promises Made by Christ, When He Declared that He Would Drink of the Fruit of the Vine with His Disciples in His Father’s Kingdom, While at the Same Time He Promised to Reward Them an Hundred-Fold, and to Make Them Partake of Banquets. The Blessing Pronounced by Jacob Had Pointed Out This Already, as Papias and the Elders Have Interpreted It.

1. For this reason, when about to undergo His sufferings, that He might declare to Abraham and those with him the glad tidings of the inheritance being thrown open, [Christ], after He had given thanks while holding the cup, and had drunk of it, and given it to the disciples, said to them: “Drink ye all of it: this is My blood of the new covenant, which shall be shed for many for the remission of sins. But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of the fruit of this vine, until that day when I will drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”284 Thus, then, He will Himself renew the inheritance of the earth, and will re-organize the mystery of the glory of [His] sons; as David says, “He who hath renewed the face of the earth.”285 He promised to drink of the fruit of the vine with His disciples, thus indicating both these points: the inheritance of the earth in which the new fruit of the vine is drunk, and the resurrection of His disciples in the flesh. For the new flesh which rises again is the same which also received the new cup. And He cannot by any means be understood as drinking of the fruit of the vine when settled down with his [disciples] above in a super-celestial place; nor, again, are they who drink it devoid of flesh, for to drink of that which flows from the vine pertains to flesh, and not spirit.

2. And for this reason the Lord declared, “When thou makest a dinner or a supper, do not call thy friends, nor thy neighbours, nor thy kinsfolk, lest they ask thee in return, and so repay thee. But call the lame, the blind, and the poor, and thou shall be blessed, since they cannot recompense thee, but a recompense shall be made thee at the resurrection of the just.”286 And again He says, “Whosoever shall have left lands, or houses, or parents, or brethren, or children because of Me, he shall receive in this world an hundred-fold, and in that to come he shall inherit eternal life.”287 For what are the hundred-fold [rewards] in this word, the entertainments given to the poor, and the suppers for which a return is made? These are [to take place] in the times of the kingdom, that is, upon the seventh day, which has been sanctified, in which God rested from all the works which He created, which is the true Sabbath of the righteous, which they shall not be engaged in any earthly occupation; but shall have a table at hand prepared for them by God, supplying them with all sorts of dishes.

3. The blessing of Isaac with which he blessed his younger son Jacob has the same meaning, when he says, “Behold, the smell of my son is as the smell of a full field which the Lord has blessed.”288 But “the field is the world.”289 And therefore he added, “God give to thee of the dew of heaven, and of the fatness of the earth, plenty of corn and wine. And let the nations serve thee, and kings bow down to thee; and be thou lord over thy brother, and thy father’s sons shall bow down to thee: cursed shall be he who shall curse thee, and blessed shall be he who shall bless thee.”290 If any one, then, does not accept these things as referring to the appointed kingdom, he must fall into much contradiction and contrariety, as is the case with the Jews, who are involved in absolute perplexity. For not only did not the nations in this life serve this Jacob; but even after he had received the blessing, he himself going forth [from his home], served his uncle Laban the Syrian for twenty years;291 and not only was he not made lord of his brother, but he did himself bow down before his brother Esau, upon his return from Mesopotamia to his father, and offered many gifts to him.292 Moreover, in what way did he inherit much corn and wine here, he who emigrated to Egypt because of the famine which possessed the land in which he was dwelling, and became Subject to Pharaoh, who was then ruling over Egypt? The predicted blessing, therefore, belongs unquestionably to the times of the kingdom, when the righteous shall bear rule upon their rising from the dead;293 when also the creation, having been renovated and set free, shall fructify with an abundance of all kinds of food, from the dew of heaven, and from the fertility of the earth: as the elders who saw John, the disciple of the Lord, related that they had heard from him how the Lord used to teach in regard to these times, and say: The days will come, in which vines shall grow, each having ten thousand branches, and in each branch ten thousand twigs, and in each true294 twig ten thousand shoots, and in each one of the shoots ten thousand dusters, and on every one of the clusters ten thousand grapes, and every grape when pressed will give five and twenty metretes of wine. And when any one of the saints shall lay hold of a cluster,295 another shall cry out, “I am a better cluster, take me; bless the Lord through me.” In like manner [the Lord declared] that a grain of wheat would produce ten thousand ears, and that every ear should have ten thousand grains, and every grain would yield ten pounds (quinque bilibres) of clear, pure, fine flour; and that all other fruit-bearing trees,296 and seeds and grass, would produce in similar proportions (secundum congruentiam iis consequentem); and that all animals feeding [only] on the productions of the earth, should [in those days] become peaceful and harmonious among each other, and be in perfect subjection to man.

4. And these things are bone witness to in writing by Papias, the hearer of John, and a companion of Polycarp, in his fourth book; for there were five books compiled (συντεταγμένα) by him.297 And he says in addition, “Now these things are credible to believers.” And he says that, “when the traitor Judas did not give credit to them, and put the question, ‘How then can things about to bring forth so abundantly be wrought by the Lord? ’the Lord declared, ‘They who shall come to these [times] shall see.’”

Roberts, Alexander ;  Donaldson, James ;   Coxe, A. Cleveland: The Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol.I  : Translations of the Writings of the Fathers Down to A.D. 325. Oak Harbor : Logos Research Systems, 1997, S. 562
Alfred,

When you type or copy merely the text of the writing itself, the bibliographical reference is enough. However, you also copied even the footnote numbering, which means that you are also legally responsible to post the link to the exact Web page from which you copied the above text. The bibliographical reference you provided does not do that. You therefore have 72 hours (12:00 a.m., PDT, Thursday, July 28) to post a link to the Web page from which you copied the above text. If you fail to comply with this moderatorial directive, you will be placed immediately on post moderation for plagiarism and for continued violation of forum rules. If you disagree with this action, please appeal it via private message to Fr. George.


Not from a web page, LOGOS Libronix Bible software, the legal copyright was at the bottom of the quote, its supplied automatically whenever its copied:

Roberts, Alexander ;  Donaldson, James ;   Coxe, A. Cleveland: The Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol.I  : Translations of the Writings of the Fathers Down to A.D. 325. Oak Harbor : Logos Research Systems, 1997, S. 562


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« Last Edit: July 25, 2011, 02:59:31 PM by Alfred Persson » Logged

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« Reply #63 on: July 25, 2011, 03:03:34 PM »

Millenialism is a failed philosophy of the 19th Century.

It didn't work for the Seventh Day Adventists, it didn't work for the Jehovah's Witnesses, it didn't work for Harold Camping, and it's not what the Orthodox believe, because it's not true.

You can't just point to verses or pages in the Bible and say they mean what you want them to mean. We can do that, too.

Any of us may as well scan pages of our Bibles, or go to Bible Gateway and copy and paste everything. Then I could write two sentences about it, and say, "See? I was right."

I suspect it still wouldn't make a difference, to someone who's here to engage in monologues and sophistry.

Incorrect:

Chapter XXXIII.—Further Proofs of the Same Proposition, Drawn from the Promises Made by Christ, When He Declared that He Would Drink of the Fruit of the Vine with His Disciples in His Father’s Kingdom, While at the Same Time He Promised to Reward Them an Hundred-Fold, and to Make Them Partake of Banquets. The Blessing Pronounced by Jacob Had Pointed Out This Already, as Papias and the Elders Have Interpreted It.

1. For this reason, when about to undergo His sufferings, that He might declare to Abraham and those with him the glad tidings of the inheritance being thrown open, [Christ], after He had given thanks while holding the cup, and had drunk of it, and given it to the disciples, said to them: “Drink ye all of it: this is My blood of the new covenant, which shall be shed for many for the remission of sins. But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of the fruit of this vine, until that day when I will drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”284 Thus, then, He will Himself renew the inheritance of the earth, and will re-organize the mystery of the glory of [His] sons; as David says, “He who hath renewed the face of the earth.”285 He promised to drink of the fruit of the vine with His disciples, thus indicating both these points: the inheritance of the earth in which the new fruit of the vine is drunk, and the resurrection of His disciples in the flesh. For the new flesh which rises again is the same which also received the new cup. And He cannot by any means be understood as drinking of the fruit of the vine when settled down with his [disciples] above in a super-celestial place; nor, again, are they who drink it devoid of flesh, for to drink of that which flows from the vine pertains to flesh, and not spirit.

2. And for this reason the Lord declared, “When thou makest a dinner or a supper, do not call thy friends, nor thy neighbours, nor thy kinsfolk, lest they ask thee in return, and so repay thee. But call the lame, the blind, and the poor, and thou shall be blessed, since they cannot recompense thee, but a recompense shall be made thee at the resurrection of the just.”286 And again He says, “Whosoever shall have left lands, or houses, or parents, or brethren, or children because of Me, he shall receive in this world an hundred-fold, and in that to come he shall inherit eternal life.”287 For what are the hundred-fold [rewards] in this word, the entertainments given to the poor, and the suppers for which a return is made? These are [to take place] in the times of the kingdom, that is, upon the seventh day, which has been sanctified, in which God rested from all the works which He created, which is the true Sabbath of the righteous, which they shall not be engaged in any earthly occupation; but shall have a table at hand prepared for them by God, supplying them with all sorts of dishes.

3. The blessing of Isaac with which he blessed his younger son Jacob has the same meaning, when he says, “Behold, the smell of my son is as the smell of a full field which the Lord has blessed.”288 But “the field is the world.”289 And therefore he added, “God give to thee of the dew of heaven, and of the fatness of the earth, plenty of corn and wine. And let the nations serve thee, and kings bow down to thee; and be thou lord over thy brother, and thy father’s sons shall bow down to thee: cursed shall be he who shall curse thee, and blessed shall be he who shall bless thee.”290 If any one, then, does not accept these things as referring to the appointed kingdom, he must fall into much contradiction and contrariety, as is the case with the Jews, who are involved in absolute perplexity. For not only did not the nations in this life serve this Jacob; but even after he had received the blessing, he himself going forth [from his home], served his uncle Laban the Syrian for twenty years;291 and not only was he not made lord of his brother, but he did himself bow down before his brother Esau, upon his return from Mesopotamia to his father, and offered many gifts to him.292 Moreover, in what way did he inherit much corn and wine here, he who emigrated to Egypt because of the famine which possessed the land in which he was dwelling, and became Subject to Pharaoh, who was then ruling over Egypt? The predicted blessing, therefore, belongs unquestionably to the times of the kingdom, when the righteous shall bear rule upon their rising from the dead;293 when also the creation, having been renovated and set free, shall fructify with an abundance of all kinds of food, from the dew of heaven, and from the fertility of the earth: as the elders who saw John, the disciple of the Lord, related that they had heard from him how the Lord used to teach in regard to these times, and say: The days will come, in which vines shall grow, each having ten thousand branches, and in each branch ten thousand twigs, and in each true294 twig ten thousand shoots, and in each one of the shoots ten thousand dusters, and on every one of the clusters ten thousand grapes, and every grape when pressed will give five and twenty metretes of wine. And when any one of the saints shall lay hold of a cluster,295 another shall cry out, “I am a better cluster, take me; bless the Lord through me.” In like manner [the Lord declared] that a grain of wheat would produce ten thousand ears, and that every ear should have ten thousand grains, and every grain would yield ten pounds (quinque bilibres) of clear, pure, fine flour; and that all other fruit-bearing trees,296 and seeds and grass, would produce in similar proportions (secundum congruentiam iis consequentem); and that all animals feeding [only] on the productions of the earth, should [in those days] become peaceful and harmonious among each other, and be in perfect subjection to man.

4. And these things are bone witness to in writing by Papias, the hearer of John, and a companion of Polycarp, in his fourth book; for there were five books compiled (συντεταγμένα) by him.297 And he says in addition, “Now these things are credible to believers.” And he says that, “when the traitor Judas did not give credit to them, and put the question, ‘How then can things about to bring forth so abundantly be wrought by the Lord? ’the Lord declared, ‘They who shall come to these [times] shall see.’”

Roberts, Alexander ;  Donaldson, James ;   Coxe, A. Cleveland: The Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol.I  : Translations of the Writings of the Fathers Down to A.D. 325. Oak Harbor : Logos Research Systems, 1997, S. 562
Alfred,

When you type or copy merely the text of the writing itself, the bibliographical reference is enough. However, you also copied even the footnote numbering, which means that you are also legally responsible to post the link to the exact Web page from which you copied the above text. The bibliographical reference you provided does not do that. You therefore have 72 hours (12:00 a.m., PDT, Thursday, July 28) to post a link to the Web page from which you copied the above text. If you fail to comply with this moderatorial directive, you will be placed immediately on post moderation for plagiarism and for continued violation of forum rules. If you disagree with this action, please appeal it via private message to Fr. George.


Not from a web page, LOGOS Libronix Bible software, the legal copyright was at the bottom of the quote, its supplied automatically whenever its copied:

Roberts, Alexander ;  Donaldson, James ;   Coxe, A. Cleveland: The Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol.I  : Translations of the Writings of the Fathers Down to A.D. 325. Oak Harbor : Logos Research Systems, 1997, S. 562


Its pricey, but worth it:
http://www.logos.com/

Then would you care to tell me why your text has all the footnote numbering of a Web page I just visited, the same exact numbers at the same exact locations in the text? (I'm not going to paste the link to that page here, since I don't want to take from you the responsibility I've placed upon you.)
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« Reply #64 on: July 25, 2011, 03:26:16 PM »

Then would you care to tell me why your text has all the footnote numbering of a Web page I just visited, the same exact numbers at the same exact locations in the text? (I'm not going to paste the link to that page here, since I don't want to take from you the responsibility I've placed upon you.)

Though I only found one site with identical numbering, the full text was not presented. I know of two other sources that present the full text (as shown) and both have different footnote systems.

I would suspect he's telling the truth, and the numbering is just a similarity in source or system. Especially, considering the widespread availability of the translation.
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« Reply #65 on: July 25, 2011, 04:01:12 PM »

Then would you care to tell me why your text has all the footnote numbering of a Web page I just visited, the same exact numbers at the same exact locations in the text? (I'm not going to paste the link to that page here, since I don't want to take from you the responsibility I've placed upon you.)

Though I only found one site with identical numbering, the full text was not presented. I know of two other sources that present the full text (as shown) and both have different footnote systems.

I would suspect he's telling the truth, and the numbering is just a similarity in source or system. Especially, considering the widespread availability of the translation.
Nope. What Alfred pasted is an exact match with the Web page I checked. However, I do not wish to discuss this with you here. If you would like to share more with me on this issue, feel free to send me a PM so we can keep this thread on topic. Thank you.
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« Reply #66 on: July 25, 2011, 04:10:03 PM »

Quote
Hell, then, is not primarily a place where God sends people in his wrath, or where God displays anger, but rather, it is the love of God, experienced by one who is not in communion with him. The figurative, spiritual fire of God's love is transcendent joy to the person purified and transfigured by it through communion in the body of Christ, but bottomless despair and suffering to the person who rejects it, and chooses to remain in communion with death.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eric-simpson/understanding-hell-as-the_b_705988.html

The teaching that heaven and hell are the same thing, i.e. God's love, but experienced differently has become extremely popular among the Orthodox since 1980.   In July 1980, Alexander Kalomiros delivered a lecture at the Youth Conference of a Russian Orthodox Church Abroad parish in Seattle.

The lecture was called "The River of Fire" and in it Kalomiros (eternal memory!) expounded the idea of heaven and hell both being the same thing - the love of God as experienced differently by both the redeemed and the damned.   

The Conference was attended by Archbishop Vitaly of Canada, later the First Hierarch of then Russian Church Abroad.   He was wrapt in this teaching and ordered that the lecture be translated and published in English and Russian and French.   It spread very rapidly throughout the Orthodox world since it appeals very strongly to most people (as it did to me originally) because it removes the burden of judgement and punishment from God Himself.

The teaching is not fully accepted within Orthodoxy as our traditional faith, and it seems that reaction against it is growing.

So the Russian Church Abroad has popularised within the Orthodox world three questionable teachings.

1.  "The Dogma of Redemption" by Metropolitan Anthony Khrapovitsky,
            originally received as enthusiastically as "The River of Fire" but now generally viewed as heretical

2.  "Life After Death" by Hieromonk Seraphim Rose

3.  "The River of Fire" by Alexander Kalomiros.

I've read the River of Fire and found it to be very compelling. However I think it is dialetically opposed to what is right and wrong.
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« Reply #67 on: July 25, 2011, 07:50:03 PM »

Millenialism is a failed philosophy of the 19th Century.

It didn't work for the Seventh Day Adventists, it didn't work for the Jehovah's Witnesses, it didn't work for Harold Camping, and it's not what the Orthodox believe, because it's not true.

You can't just point to verses or pages in the Bible and say they mean what you want them to mean. We can do that, too.

Any of us may as well scan pages of our Bibles, or go to Bible Gateway and copy and paste everything. Then I could write two sentences about it, and say, "See? I was right."

I suspect it still wouldn't make a difference, to someone who's here to engage in monologues and sophistry.

Incorrect:

Chapter XXXIII.—Further Proofs of the Same Proposition, Drawn from the Promises Made by Christ, When He Declared that He Would Drink of the Fruit of the Vine with His Disciples in His Father’s Kingdom, While at the Same Time He Promised to Reward Them an Hundred-Fold, and to Make Them Partake of Banquets. The Blessing Pronounced by Jacob Had Pointed Out This Already, as Papias and the Elders Have Interpreted It.

1. For this reason, when about to undergo His sufferings, that He might declare to Abraham and those with him the glad tidings of the inheritance being thrown open, [Christ], after He had given thanks while holding the cup, and had drunk of it, and given it to the disciples, said to them: “Drink ye all of it: this is My blood of the new covenant, which shall be shed for many for the remission of sins. But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of the fruit of this vine, until that day when I will drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”284 Thus, then, He will Himself renew the inheritance of the earth, and will re-organize the mystery of the glory of [His] sons; as David says, “He who hath renewed the face of the earth.”285 He promised to drink of the fruit of the vine with His disciples, thus indicating both these points: the inheritance of the earth in which the new fruit of the vine is drunk, and the resurrection of His disciples in the flesh. For the new flesh which rises again is the same which also received the new cup. And He cannot by any means be understood as drinking of the fruit of the vine when settled down with his [disciples] above in a super-celestial place; nor, again, are they who drink it devoid of flesh, for to drink of that which flows from the vine pertains to flesh, and not spirit.

2. And for this reason the Lord declared, “When thou makest a dinner or a supper, do not call thy friends, nor thy neighbours, nor thy kinsfolk, lest they ask thee in return, and so repay thee. But call the lame, the blind, and the poor, and thou shall be blessed, since they cannot recompense thee, but a recompense shall be made thee at the resurrection of the just.”286 And again He says, “Whosoever shall have left lands, or houses, or parents, or brethren, or children because of Me, he shall receive in this world an hundred-fold, and in that to come he shall inherit eternal life.”287 For what are the hundred-fold [rewards] in this word, the entertainments given to the poor, and the suppers for which a return is made? These are [to take place] in the times of the kingdom, that is, upon the seventh day, which has been sanctified, in which God rested from all the works which He created, which is the true Sabbath of the righteous, which they shall not be engaged in any earthly occupation; but shall have a table at hand prepared for them by God, supplying them with all sorts of dishes.

3. The blessing of Isaac with which he blessed his younger son Jacob has the same meaning, when he says, “Behold, the smell of my son is as the smell of a full field which the Lord has blessed.”288 But “the field is the world.”289 And therefore he added, “God give to thee of the dew of heaven, and of the fatness of the earth, plenty of corn and wine. And let the nations serve thee, and kings bow down to thee; and be thou lord over thy brother, and thy father’s sons shall bow down to thee: cursed shall be he who shall curse thee, and blessed shall be he who shall bless thee.”290 If any one, then, does not accept these things as referring to the appointed kingdom, he must fall into much contradiction and contrariety, as is the case with the Jews, who are involved in absolute perplexity. For not only did not the nations in this life serve this Jacob; but even after he had received the blessing, he himself going forth [from his home], served his uncle Laban the Syrian for twenty years;291 and not only was he not made lord of his brother, but he did himself bow down before his brother Esau, upon his return from Mesopotamia to his father, and offered many gifts to him.292 Moreover, in what way did he inherit much corn and wine here, he who emigrated to Egypt because of the famine which possessed the land in which he was dwelling, and became Subject to Pharaoh, who was then ruling over Egypt? The predicted blessing, therefore, belongs unquestionably to the times of the kingdom, when the righteous shall bear rule upon their rising from the dead;293 when also the creation, having been renovated and set free, shall fructify with an abundance of all kinds of food, from the dew of heaven, and from the fertility of the earth: as the elders who saw John, the disciple of the Lord, related that they had heard from him how the Lord used to teach in regard to these times, and say: The days will come, in which vines shall grow, each having ten thousand branches, and in each branch ten thousand twigs, and in each true294 twig ten thousand shoots, and in each one of the shoots ten thousand dusters, and on every one of the clusters ten thousand grapes, and every grape when pressed will give five and twenty metretes of wine. And when any one of the saints shall lay hold of a cluster,295 another shall cry out, “I am a better cluster, take me; bless the Lord through me.” In like manner [the Lord declared] that a grain of wheat would produce ten thousand ears, and that every ear should have ten thousand grains, and every grain would yield ten pounds (quinque bilibres) of clear, pure, fine flour; and that all other fruit-bearing trees,296 and seeds and grass, would produce in similar proportions (secundum congruentiam iis consequentem); and that all animals feeding [only] on the productions of the earth, should [in those days] become peaceful and harmonious among each other, and be in perfect subjection to man.

4. And these things are bone witness to in writing by Papias, the hearer of John, and a companion of Polycarp, in his fourth book; for there were five books compiled (συντεταγμένα) by him.297 And he says in addition, “Now these things are credible to believers.” And he says that, “when the traitor Judas did not give credit to them, and put the question, ‘How then can things about to bring forth so abundantly be wrought by the Lord? ’the Lord declared, ‘They who shall come to these [times] shall see.’”

Roberts, Alexander ;  Donaldson, James ;   Coxe, A. Cleveland: The Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol.I  : Translations of the Writings of the Fathers Down to A.D. 325. Oak Harbor : Logos Research Systems, 1997, S. 562
Alfred,

When you type or copy merely the text of the writing itself, the bibliographical reference is enough. However, you also copied even the footnote numbering, which means that you are also legally responsible to post the link to the exact Web page from which you copied the above text. The bibliographical reference you provided does not do that. You therefore have 72 hours (12:00 a.m., PDT, Thursday, July 28) to post a link to the Web page from which you copied the above text. If you fail to comply with this moderatorial directive, you will be placed immediately on post moderation for plagiarism and for continued violation of forum rules. If you disagree with this action, please appeal it via private message to Fr. George.


Not from a web page, LOGOS Libronix Bible software, the legal copyright was at the bottom of the quote, its supplied automatically whenever its copied:

Roberts, Alexander ;  Donaldson, James ;   Coxe, A. Cleveland: The Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol.I  : Translations of the Writings of the Fathers Down to A.D. 325. Oak Harbor : Logos Research Systems, 1997, S. 562


Its pricey, but worth it:
http://www.logos.com/

Then would you care to tell me why your text has all the footnote numbering of a Web page I just visited, the same exact numbers at the same exact locations in the text? (I'm not going to paste the link to that page here, since I don't want to take from you the responsibility I've placed upon you.)

Sherlock Holmes would infer they also copy pasted from Logos software.
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« Reply #68 on: July 25, 2011, 07:51:39 PM »

Sherlock Holmes would infer they also copy pasted from Logos software.

It was my guess that Logos copied from the internets, and you were gullible enough to pay for it.  Wink
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« Reply #69 on: July 25, 2011, 08:31:25 PM »

Millenialism is a failed philosophy of the 19th Century.

It didn't work for the Seventh Day Adventists, it didn't work for the Jehovah's Witnesses, it didn't work for Harold Camping, and it's not what the Orthodox believe, because it's not true.

You can't just point to verses or pages in the Bible and say they mean what you want them to mean. We can do that, too.

Any of us may as well scan pages of our Bibles, or go to Bible Gateway and copy and paste everything. Then I could write two sentences about it, and say, "See? I was right."

I suspect it still wouldn't make a difference, to someone who's here to engage in monologues and sophistry.

Incorrect:

Chapter XXXIII.—Further Proofs of the Same Proposition, Drawn from the Promises Made by Christ, When He Declared that He Would Drink of the Fruit of the Vine with His Disciples in His Father’s Kingdom, While at the Same Time He Promised to Reward Them an Hundred-Fold, and to Make Them Partake of Banquets. The Blessing Pronounced by Jacob Had Pointed Out This Already, as Papias and the Elders Have Interpreted It.

1. For this reason, when about to undergo His sufferings, that He might declare to Abraham and those with him the glad tidings of the inheritance being thrown open, [Christ], after He had given thanks while holding the cup, and had drunk of it, and given it to the disciples, said to them: “Drink ye all of it: this is My blood of the new covenant, which shall be shed for many for the remission of sins. But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of the fruit of this vine, until that day when I will drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”284 Thus, then, He will Himself renew the inheritance of the earth, and will re-organize the mystery of the glory of [His] sons; as David says, “He who hath renewed the face of the earth.”285 He promised to drink of the fruit of the vine with His disciples, thus indicating both these points: the inheritance of the earth in which the new fruit of the vine is drunk, and the resurrection of His disciples in the flesh. For the new flesh which rises again is the same which also received the new cup. And He cannot by any means be understood as drinking of the fruit of the vine when settled down with his [disciples] above in a super-celestial place; nor, again, are they who drink it devoid of flesh, for to drink of that which flows from the vine pertains to flesh, and not spirit.

2. And for this reason the Lord declared, “When thou makest a dinner or a supper, do not call thy friends, nor thy neighbours, nor thy kinsfolk, lest they ask thee in return, and so repay thee. But call the lame, the blind, and the poor, and thou shall be blessed, since they cannot recompense thee, but a recompense shall be made thee at the resurrection of the just.”286 And again He says, “Whosoever shall have left lands, or houses, or parents, or brethren, or children because of Me, he shall receive in this world an hundred-fold, and in that to come he shall inherit eternal life.”287 For what are the hundred-fold [rewards] in this word, the entertainments given to the poor, and the suppers for which a return is made? These are [to take place] in the times of the kingdom, that is, upon the seventh day, which has been sanctified, in which God rested from all the works which He created, which is the true Sabbath of the righteous, which they shall not be engaged in any earthly occupation; but shall have a table at hand prepared for them by God, supplying them with all sorts of dishes.

3. The blessing of Isaac with which he blessed his younger son Jacob has the same meaning, when he says, “Behold, the smell of my son is as the smell of a full field which the Lord has blessed.”288 But “the field is the world.”289 And therefore he added, “God give to thee of the dew of heaven, and of the fatness of the earth, plenty of corn and wine. And let the nations serve thee, and kings bow down to thee; and be thou lord over thy brother, and thy father’s sons shall bow down to thee: cursed shall be he who shall curse thee, and blessed shall be he who shall bless thee.”290 If any one, then, does not accept these things as referring to the appointed kingdom, he must fall into much contradiction and contrariety, as is the case with the Jews, who are involved in absolute perplexity. For not only did not the nations in this life serve this Jacob; but even after he had received the blessing, he himself going forth [from his home], served his uncle Laban the Syrian for twenty years;291 and not only was he not made lord of his brother, but he did himself bow down before his brother Esau, upon his return from Mesopotamia to his father, and offered many gifts to him.292 Moreover, in what way did he inherit much corn and wine here, he who emigrated to Egypt because of the famine which possessed the land in which he was dwelling, and became Subject to Pharaoh, who was then ruling over Egypt? The predicted blessing, therefore, belongs unquestionably to the times of the kingdom, when the righteous shall bear rule upon their rising from the dead;293 when also the creation, having been renovated and set free, shall fructify with an abundance of all kinds of food, from the dew of heaven, and from the fertility of the earth: as the elders who saw John, the disciple of the Lord, related that they had heard from him how the Lord used to teach in regard to these times, and say: The days will come, in which vines shall grow, each having ten thousand branches, and in each branch ten thousand twigs, and in each true294 twig ten thousand shoots, and in each one of the shoots ten thousand dusters, and on every one of the clusters ten thousand grapes, and every grape when pressed will give five and twenty metretes of wine. And when any one of the saints shall lay hold of a cluster,295 another shall cry out, “I am a better cluster, take me; bless the Lord through me.” In like manner [the Lord declared] that a grain of wheat would produce ten thousand ears, and that every ear should have ten thousand grains, and every grain would yield ten pounds (quinque bilibres) of clear, pure, fine flour; and that all other fruit-bearing trees,296 and seeds and grass, would produce in similar proportions (secundum congruentiam iis consequentem); and that all animals feeding [only] on the productions of the earth, should [in those days] become peaceful and harmonious among each other, and be in perfect subjection to man.

4. And these things are bone witness to in writing by Papias, the hearer of John, and a companion of Polycarp, in his fourth book; for there were five books compiled (συντεταγμένα) by him.297 And he says in addition, “Now these things are credible to believers.” And he says that, “when the traitor Judas did not give credit to them, and put the question, ‘How then can things about to bring forth so abundantly be wrought by the Lord? ’the Lord declared, ‘They who shall come to these [times] shall see.’”

Roberts, Alexander ;  Donaldson, James ;   Coxe, A. Cleveland: The Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol.I  : Translations of the Writings of the Fathers Down to A.D. 325. Oak Harbor : Logos Research Systems, 1997, S. 562
Alfred,

When you type or copy merely the text of the writing itself, the bibliographical reference is enough. However, you also copied even the footnote numbering, which means that you are also legally responsible to post the link to the exact Web page from which you copied the above text. The bibliographical reference you provided does not do that. You therefore have 72 hours (12:00 a.m., PDT, Thursday, July 28) to post a link to the Web page from which you copied the above text. If you fail to comply with this moderatorial directive, you will be placed immediately on post moderation for plagiarism and for continued violation of forum rules. If you disagree with this action, please appeal it via private message to Fr. George.


Not from a web page, LOGOS Libronix Bible software, the legal copyright was at the bottom of the quote, its supplied automatically whenever its copied:

Roberts, Alexander ;  Donaldson, James ;   Coxe, A. Cleveland: The Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol.I  : Translations of the Writings of the Fathers Down to A.D. 325. Oak Harbor : Logos Research Systems, 1997, S. 562


Its pricey, but worth it:
http://www.logos.com/

Then would you care to tell me why your text has all the footnote numbering of a Web page I just visited, the same exact numbers at the same exact locations in the text? (I'm not going to paste the link to that page here, since I don't want to take from you the responsibility I've placed upon you.)

Sherlock Holmes would infer they also copy pasted from Logos software.
I certainly hope this isn't some kind of wisecrack, since such disrespect for a moderatorial directive is not tolerated here at OC.net and will incur discipline all by itself. Now to the substance of your quip, the Web page of which I have spoken does not give any credit to Logos Software, nor do they post a bibliographical reference that even closely resembles that which you claim is auto-generated by Logos Software, so I find your explanation dubious. Please try again.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2011, 08:40:46 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #70 on: July 25, 2011, 09:38:44 PM »


I was postponing conversation about it to discuss Hades, but was giving one last statement why I believe the millennial kingdom is absolutely necessary.

So, if we leave the whole milleniumn thing out of the picture, "hades" could simply refer to the state/place/experience of the soul being seperated from the body between the time of death and when it is reunited to the body in the resurrection, some to life and some to condemnation.

We agree, its the "intermediate state" where souls await the resurrection. But we likely disagree as I define Hades/Sheol as the "UNSEEN place" where everything from Third Heaven down is.

In other words, in both the OT and NT the righteous dead go to Sheol/Hades (Ps 16:10; 30:3; 49:15; etc) , but they are in the UPPER level also known as "Third Heaven" or "Paradise", while in the lower levels there are punishments fitted to the evil of those within them. Christ added to their number some of those spirits in prison who had repented, hybrid human-angel souls (Gen c. 6) who died at the flood, but were separated from both man and angel in death, In like figure to our responding to the gospel with a good conscience, these responded to Christ's preaching so He led them in His train into paradise to await the resurrection (Eph 4:9-10; 1 Pet 4:18-22). These are the children of the "sons of God" who remain under eternal bonds and darkness, never to return (2 Pet 2:4). But their children are allowed in, hence Christ's "special trip" to inform them.

8 Then Abraham breathed his last and died in a good old age, an old man and full of years, and was gathered to his people. (Gen 25:8 NKJ)

22 "So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
 23 "And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. (Luk 16:22-23 NKJ)

43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." (Luk 23:43 NKJ)

2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago-- whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows-- such a one was caught up to the third heaven.
 3 And I know such a man-- whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows--
 4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. (2Co 12:2-4 NKJ)


Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? (Ecc 3:21 KJV)

THESE ARE THOSE GOD BRINGS WITH HIM at His advent, He "scoops them up from third heaven" which is just beneath His Altar (Rev 6:9) in higher heavens::

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. (1Th 4:14-18 NKJ)


51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed--
 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
(1Co 15:51-52 NKJ)

Only the righteous are mentioned.


This is the "first resurrection", a special group of believers, the martyrs etc who died in Christ and so among the first fruits raised up in glorious incorruptible bodies like Jesus received at His resurrection.

2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. (1Jo 3:2 NKJ)

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. (Rev 20:4-6 NKJ)


These will be raised up lin glorious physical bodies that are infused with incorruptible spirit, hence "spiritual bodies":

44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
 45 And so it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.
 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven.
 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly.
 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man. (1Co 15:44-49 NKJ)


This is the "First (or "out) Resurrection" which happens at the beginning of Christ's return, when it is said "Michael shall stand up", at the last Trump sounding to War:


"At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book.
 2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
 3 Those who are wise shall shine Like the brightness of the firmament, And those who turn many to righteousness Like the stars forever and ever.
 (Dan 12:1-3 NKJ)



This is why 'THE ANGEL" (not Daniel) says "many...some ...will rise", not "all" because this is the "first resurrection" and applies to all those called and chosen.

17 For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?
 18 Now "If the righteous one is scarcely saved, Where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?"
 (1Pe 4:17-18 NKJ)


27 "For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.
 28 "Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." (Mat 16:27-28 NKJ) (cf Mark 9:1ff) The transfiguration fulfilled this prophecy, but it also has reference to Christ's coming, hence its mentioned here.)


Then Christ judges the billions of people still alive at the Advent of Christ, who didn't die from the plagues and wars:

31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
 32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. (Mat 25:31-32 NKJ)


This decides their final destiny at the beginning of Christ's millennial kingdom, but what of those who just didn't know any better. Those enter the Millennial kingdom and are put to the test.


So the judgment at the beginning of the Millennial Kingdom is not the final judgment in Rev 20:11ff which happens AFTER the thousand year reign of Christ.


Because my answer is so long, I will end this here. BUT I fully intend to address every issue you raised.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2011, 10:10:43 PM by Alfred Persson » Logged

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« Reply #71 on: July 25, 2011, 09:40:55 PM »

Millenialism is a failed philosophy of the 19th Century.

It didn't work for the Seventh Day Adventists, it didn't work for the Jehovah's Witnesses, it didn't work for Harold Camping, and it's not what the Orthodox believe, because it's not true.

You can't just point to verses or pages in the Bible and say they mean what you want them to mean. We can do that, too.

Any of us may as well scan pages of our Bibles, or go to Bible Gateway and copy and paste everything. Then I could write two sentences about it, and say, "See? I was right."

I suspect it still wouldn't make a difference, to someone who's here to engage in monologues and sophistry.

Incorrect:

Chapter XXXIII.—Further Proofs of the Same Proposition, Drawn from the Promises Made by Christ, When He Declared that He Would Drink of the Fruit of the Vine with His Disciples in His Father’s Kingdom, While at the Same Time He Promised to Reward Them an Hundred-Fold, and to Make Them Partake of Banquets. The Blessing Pronounced by Jacob Had Pointed Out This Already, as Papias and the Elders Have Interpreted It.

1. For this reason, when about to undergo His sufferings, that He might declare to Abraham and those with him the glad tidings of the inheritance being thrown open, [Christ], after He had given thanks while holding the cup, and had drunk of it, and given it to the disciples, said to them: “Drink ye all of it: this is My blood of the new covenant, which shall be shed for many for the remission of sins. But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of the fruit of this vine, until that day when I will drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”284 Thus, then, He will Himself renew the inheritance of the earth, and will re-organize the mystery of the glory of [His] sons; as David says, “He who hath renewed the face of the earth.”285 He promised to drink of the fruit of the vine with His disciples, thus indicating both these points: the inheritance of the earth in which the new fruit of the vine is drunk, and the resurrection of His disciples in the flesh. For the new flesh which rises again is the same which also received the new cup. And He cannot by any means be understood as drinking of the fruit of the vine when settled down with his [disciples] above in a super-celestial place; nor, again, are they who drink it devoid of flesh, for to drink of that which flows from the vine pertains to flesh, and not spirit.

2. And for this reason the Lord declared, “When thou makest a dinner or a supper, do not call thy friends, nor thy neighbours, nor thy kinsfolk, lest they ask thee in return, and so repay thee. But call the lame, the blind, and the poor, and thou shall be blessed, since they cannot recompense thee, but a recompense shall be made thee at the resurrection of the just.”286 And again He says, “Whosoever shall have left lands, or houses, or parents, or brethren, or children because of Me, he shall receive in this world an hundred-fold, and in that to come he shall inherit eternal life.”287 For what are the hundred-fold [rewards] in this word, the entertainments given to the poor, and the suppers for which a return is made? These are [to take place] in the times of the kingdom, that is, upon the seventh day, which has been sanctified, in which God rested from all the works which He created, which is the true Sabbath of the righteous, which they shall not be engaged in any earthly occupation; but shall have a table at hand prepared for them by God, supplying them with all sorts of dishes.

3. The blessing of Isaac with which he blessed his younger son Jacob has the same meaning, when he says, “Behold, the smell of my son is as the smell of a full field which the Lord has blessed.”288 But “the field is the world.”289 And therefore he added, “God give to thee of the dew of heaven, and of the fatness of the earth, plenty of corn and wine. And let the nations serve thee, and kings bow down to thee; and be thou lord over thy brother, and thy father’s sons shall bow down to thee: cursed shall be he who shall curse thee, and blessed shall be he who shall bless thee.”290 If any one, then, does not accept these things as referring to the appointed kingdom, he must fall into much contradiction and contrariety, as is the case with the Jews, who are involved in absolute perplexity. For not only did not the nations in this life serve this Jacob; but even after he had received the blessing, he himself going forth [from his home], served his uncle Laban the Syrian for twenty years;291 and not only was he not made lord of his brother, but he did himself bow down before his brother Esau, upon his return from Mesopotamia to his father, and offered many gifts to him.292 Moreover, in what way did he inherit much corn and wine here, he who emigrated to Egypt because of the famine which possessed the land in which he was dwelling, and became Subject to Pharaoh, who was then ruling over Egypt? The predicted blessing, therefore, belongs unquestionably to the times of the kingdom, when the righteous shall bear rule upon their rising from the dead;293 when also the creation, having been renovated and set free, shall fructify with an abundance of all kinds of food, from the dew of heaven, and from the fertility of the earth: as the elders who saw John, the disciple of the Lord, related that they had heard from him how the Lord used to teach in regard to these times, and say: The days will come, in which vines shall grow, each having ten thousand branches, and in each branch ten thousand twigs, and in each true294 twig ten thousand shoots, and in each one of the shoots ten thousand dusters, and on every one of the clusters ten thousand grapes, and every grape when pressed will give five and twenty metretes of wine. And when any one of the saints shall lay hold of a cluster,295 another shall cry out, “I am a better cluster, take me; bless the Lord through me.” In like manner [the Lord declared] that a grain of wheat would produce ten thousand ears, and that every ear should have ten thousand grains, and every grain would yield ten pounds (quinque bilibres) of clear, pure, fine flour; and that all other fruit-bearing trees,296 and seeds and grass, would produce in similar proportions (secundum congruentiam iis consequentem); and that all animals feeding [only] on the productions of the earth, should [in those days] become peaceful and harmonious among each other, and be in perfect subjection to man.

4. And these things are bone witness to in writing by Papias, the hearer of John, and a companion of Polycarp, in his fourth book; for there were five books compiled (συντεταγμένα) by him.297 And he says in addition, “Now these things are credible to believers.” And he says that, “when the traitor Judas did not give credit to them, and put the question, ‘How then can things about to bring forth so abundantly be wrought by the Lord? ’the Lord declared, ‘They who shall come to these [times] shall see.’”

Roberts, Alexander ;  Donaldson, James ;   Coxe, A. Cleveland: The Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol.I  : Translations of the Writings of the Fathers Down to A.D. 325. Oak Harbor : Logos Research Systems, 1997, S. 562
Alfred,

When you type or copy merely the text of the writing itself, the bibliographical reference is enough. However, you also copied even the footnote numbering, which means that you are also legally responsible to post the link to the exact Web page from which you copied the above text. The bibliographical reference you provided does not do that. You therefore have 72 hours (12:00 a.m., PDT, Thursday, July 28) to post a link to the Web page from which you copied the above text. If you fail to comply with this moderatorial directive, you will be placed immediately on post moderation for plagiarism and for continued violation of forum rules. If you disagree with this action, please appeal it via private message to Fr. George.


Not from a web page, LOGOS Libronix Bible software, the legal copyright was at the bottom of the quote, its supplied automatically whenever its copied:

Roberts, Alexander ;  Donaldson, James ;   Coxe, A. Cleveland: The Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol.I  : Translations of the Writings of the Fathers Down to A.D. 325. Oak Harbor : Logos Research Systems, 1997, S. 562


Its pricey, but worth it:
http://www.logos.com/

Then would you care to tell me why your text has all the footnote numbering of a Web page I just visited, the same exact numbers at the same exact locations in the text? (I'm not going to paste the link to that page here, since I don't want to take from you the responsibility I've placed upon you.)

Sherlock Holmes would infer they also copy pasted from Logos software.
I certainly hope this isn't some kind of wisecrack, since such disrespect for a moderatorial directive is not tolerated here at OC.net and will incur discipline all by itself. Now to the substance of your quip, the Web page of which I have spoken does not give any credit to Logos Software, nor do they post a bibliographical reference that even closely resembles that which you claim is auto-generated by Logos Software, so I find your explanation dubious. Please try again.

Wow! NO, not a wisecrack, its elementary deduction...the text verifiably comes from logos software, if the web site has the precise same text and foot notes, then its elementary they quoted the same thing I did, Logos software....OR, the actual texts that were digitized and put in Logos software...The Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol.I  : Translations of the Writings of the Fathers Down to A.D. 325.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2011, 09:45:43 PM by Alfred Persson » Logged

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« Reply #72 on: July 25, 2011, 10:21:29 PM »


I was postponing conversation about it to discuss Hades, but was giving one last statement why I believe the millennial kingdom is absolutely necessary.

So, if we leave the whole milleniumn thing out of the picture, "hades" could simply refer to the state/place/experience of the soul being seperated from the body between the time of death and when it is reunited to the body in the resurrection, some to life and some to condemnation.

We agree, its the "intermediate state" where souls await the resurrection. But we likely disagree as I define Hades/Sheol as the "UNSEEN place" where everything from Third Heaven down is.

In other words, in both the OT and NT the righteous dead go to Sheol/Hades (Ps 16:10; 30:3; 49:15; etc) , but they are in the UPPER level also known as "Third Heaven" or "Paradise", while in the lower levels there are punishments fitted to the evil of those within them. Christ added to their number some of those spirits in prison who had repented, hybrid human-angel souls (Gen c. 6) who died at the flood, but were separated from both man and angel in death, In like figure to our responding to the gospel with a good conscience, these responded to Christ's preaching so He led them in His train into paradise to await the resurrection (Eph 4:9-10; 1 Pet 4:18-22). These are the children of the "sons of God" who remain under eternal bonds and darkness, never to return (2 Pet 2:4). But their children are allowed in, hence Christ's "special trip" to inform them.

8 Then Abraham breathed his last and died in a good old age, an old man and full of years, and was gathered to his people. (Gen 25:8 NKJ)

22 "So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
 23 "And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. (Luk 16:22-23 NKJ)

43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." (Luk 23:43 NKJ)

2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago-- whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows-- such a one was caught up to the third heaven.
 3 And I know such a man-- whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows--
 4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. (2Co 12:2-4 NKJ)


Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? (Ecc 3:21 KJV)

THESE ARE THOSE GOD BRINGS WITH HIM at His advent, He "scoops them up from third heaven" which is just beneath His Altar (Rev 6:9) in higher heavens::

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. (1Th 4:14-18 NKJ)


51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed--
 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
(1Co 15:51-52 NKJ)

Only the righteous are mentioned.


This is the "first resurrection", a special group of believers, the martyrs etc who died in Christ and so among the first fruits raised up in glorious incorruptible bodies like Jesus received at His resurrection.

2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. (1Jo 3:2 NKJ)

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. (Rev 20:4-6 NKJ)


These will be raised up lin glorious physical bodies that are infused with incorruptible spirit, hence "spiritual bodies":

44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
 45 And so it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.
 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven.
 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly.
 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man. (1Co 15:44-49 NKJ)


This is the "First (or "out) Resurrection" which happens at the beginning of Christ's return, when it is said "Michael shall stand up", at the last Trump sounding to War:


"At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book.
 2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
 3 Those who are wise shall shine Like the brightness of the firmament, And those who turn many to righteousness Like the stars forever and ever.
 (Dan 12:1-3 NKJ)



This is why 'THE ANGEL" (not Daniel) says "many...some ...will rise", not "all" because this is the "first resurrection" and applies to all those called and chosen.

17 For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?
 18 Now "If the righteous one is scarcely saved, Where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?"
 (1Pe 4:17-18 NKJ)


27 "For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.
 28 "Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." (Mat 16:27-28 NKJ) (cf Mark 9:1ff) The transfiguration fulfilled this prophecy, but it also has reference to Christ's coming, hence its mentioned here.)


Then Christ judges the billions of people still alive at the Advent of Christ, who didn't die from the plagues and wars:

31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
 32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. (Mat 25:31-32 NKJ)


This decides their final destiny at the beginning of Christ's millennial kingdom, but what of those who just didn't know any better. Those enter the Millennial kingdom and are put to the test.


So the judgment at the beginning of the Millennial Kingdom is not the final judgment in Rev 20:11ff which happens AFTER the thousand year reign of Christ.


Because my answer is so long, I will end this here. BUT I fully intend to address every issue you raised.


I ran out of time, so add this little bit:

So Dan 12:1-3 is being "prophetically telescoped" with the Judgment of all, but that its reference is mainly to the first resurrection is implied by "many" and the return to the resurrection of the righteous in verse 3.

"At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book.
 2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
 3 Those who are wise shall shine Like the brightness of the firmament, And those who turn many to righteousness Like the stars forever and ever. (Dan 12:1-3 NKJ)

Prophetic telescoping is common in scripture, for example:

10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. (Zec 12:10 NKJ)

Notice the change in pronoun, from "Me" to "Him", first advent, second advent.

 7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen. (Rev 1:7 NKJ)

That's why there is no reference to a resurrection during this Judgment:

 31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
 32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. (Mat 25:31-32 NKJ)

Because its not the final judgment when all are resurrected in Rev 20:11-15).



The final judgment happens at the end of the 1000 year reign of Christ (Rev 20:7, 11-15) when ALL are raised up, and judged according to their works...and God saves all those written in the Lamb's book of life, lest any of them be lost because of the works of the devil, and He mourn these He foreknew, for all eternity:


 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:15-1 NKJ)


 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
 31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? (Rom 8:29-31 NKJ)


8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. (1Jo 3:8 NKJ)

20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
 22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
(Rev 3:20-1 KJV)


Because my answer is so long, I will end this here. BUT I fully intend to address every issue you raised.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2011, 10:49:49 PM by Alfred Persson » Logged

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« Reply #73 on: July 25, 2011, 11:14:37 PM »


The millennial kingdom is NECESSARY because billions of people ignored the preaching of the Gospel,

If they heard the (correct) preaching of the Gospel, then they did receive the call and the invitation to the wedding feast. If they rejected that message as a rejection of what they know to be right (only God really knows why people do the things they do sometimes), then they would fall under condemnation for refusing the invitation received.

The apostle Peter wouldn't agree, he says some rejected his preaching, remaining spiritually dead, would live according to God in the spirit after the wages for their sin, death, is paid:

3 For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles-- when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries.
 4 In regard to these, they think it strange that you do not run with them in the same flood of dissipation, speaking evil of you.
 5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
 6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1Pe 4:3-6 NKJ)

These heard Peter and refused to repent and believe, they thought Christians strange to deny themselves the pleasures of this life. But Peter's preaching to them wasn't in vain, in fact, its "for this cause" God ordained they hear, in order that after they are judged according to men in the flesh, that is, die, they live according to God in the spirit.


Also Paul speaks of someone who dies after knowing the gospel, but who didn't obey it, who dies and then their spirit is saved, not in Hades, but on Judgment Day, when all are raised, in the "Day of the Lord Jesus"

5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1Co 5:5 NKJ)

It is the "Day of the Lord Jesus" BECAUSE its God the Eternal Son on the throne, not the Father---contrary to the exegesis of some:

22 "For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son,

 23 "that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
 (Joh 5:22-23 NKJ)

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, (Rev 20:11-12 NKJ)


Continued in the following posts
« Last Edit: July 25, 2011, 11:19:41 PM by Alfred Persson » Logged

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« Reply #74 on: July 25, 2011, 11:32:19 PM »

Hey guys, our Protestant is back!

So's your Byzantine Catholic.  Grin

Hey Alfred, how are you holding up in this heat wave?  Smiley
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« Reply #75 on: July 25, 2011, 11:36:44 PM »

So's your Byzantine Catholic.  Grin

Holy Moly!
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« Reply #76 on: July 25, 2011, 11:46:48 PM »

or never heard it, when Christ arrives.


According to Matt 24:14 and Mark 13:10, This should not be an issue. Those living at Christ's return  will be preached the message of the Gospel. Scripture says many will be unaware when He returns, but it will be like in the days of Noah when Noah gave warning to all the people and those who ignored it perished while those who heeded it (his wife and sons and sons' wives) were saved from destruction.

As for those who perish before then, after the time when the Psalms were written, Christ took on death and made himself known in hades when he preached to the spirits in prison. Eph 4:9-10 says that when he first descended into the lower parts of the earth and then ascended into heaven "that He might fill all things".[/color]

While I agree it will be like the Days of Noah, and God not only sends His two witnesses to warn all:

11 Jesus answered and said to them, "Indeed, Elijah is coming first and will restore all things. (Mat 17:11 NKJ)

3 "And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth."
 4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth. (Rev 11:3-4 NKJ)

Moses is the other witness:

3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. (Mat 17:3 NKJ)


There will be 144000 specially anointed believers who will also carry the news:

3 saying, "Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads."
 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed: (Rev 7:3-4 NKJ)

These will warn all lest any accept the mark of the beast, ignorantly. These will light the earth with the fire of the gospel, world wide coverage with the Gospel is clearly prophesied:

6 Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth-- to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people--
 7 saying with a loud voice, "Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water." (Rev 14:6-7 NKJ)

But it does not follow those who, because of the power of sin, who didn't sin the eternal sin, are eternally lost:

16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that.
 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death. (1Jo 5:16-17 NKJ)

Hell stands at the ready, just beneath our feet, waiting to swallow whole the obstinate, and teach them the consequences of continued rebellion...lest any be cast into the lake of fire, who didn't fully choose to be there.


I cited both Peter (1 Pet 4:3-6) and Paul (1 Cor 5:5) in post #73 above as proof there is forgiveness of sin after this world, now I cite Christ:

31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
 32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. (Mat 12:31-32 KJV)
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« Reply #77 on: July 25, 2011, 11:47:55 PM »

or never heard it, when Christ arrives.


According to Matt 24:14 and Mark 13:10, This should not be an issue. Those living at Christ's return  will be preached the message of the Gospel. Scripture says many will be unaware when He returns, but it will be like in the days of Noah when Noah gave warning to all the people and those who ignored it perished while those who heeded it (his wife and sons and sons' wives) were saved from destruction.

As for those who perish before then, after the time when the Psalms were written, Christ took on death and made himself known in hades when he preached to the spirits in prison. Eph 4:9-10 says that when he first descended into the lower parts of the earth and then ascended into heaven "that He might fill all things".[/color]

While I agree it will be like the Days of Noah, God sends more than one prophet to warn all, there are His two witnesses Moses and Elijah:

11 Jesus answered and said to them, "Indeed, Elijah is coming first and will restore all things. (Mat 17:11 NKJ)

3 "And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth."
 4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth. (Rev 11:3-4 NKJ)

Moses is the other witness:

3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. (Mat 17:3 NKJ)


There will be 144000 specially anointed believers who will also carry the news:

3 saying, "Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads."
 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed: (Rev 7:3-4 NKJ)

These will warn all lest any accept the mark of the beast, ignorantly. These will light the earth with the fire of the gospel, world wide coverage with the Gospel is clearly prophesied:

6 Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth-- to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people--
 7 saying with a loud voice, "Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water." (Rev 14:6-7 NKJ)

But it does not follow those who, because of the power of sin, who didn't sin the eternal sin, are eternally lost:

16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that.
 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death. (1Jo 5:16-17 NKJ)

Hell stands at the ready, just beneath our feet, waiting to swallow whole the obstinate, and teach them the consequences of continued rebellion...lest any be cast into the lake of fire, who didn't fully choose to be there.


I cited both Peter (1 Pet 4:3-6) and Paul (1 Cor 5:5) in post #73 above as proof there is forgiveness of sin after this world, now I cite Christ:

31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
 32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. (Mat 12:31-32 KJV)


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« Reply #78 on: July 26, 2011, 12:07:31 AM »


As faith is necessary to salvation, and "faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" (Heb 11:1 NKJ), its clear these cannot be saved, for they cannot excercise faith, they SEE everything, it no longer requires faith to believe in Christ, He is standing there in front of everyone.[/color]

This is why we believe this is when everyone will be raised and judged.


So we agree there is salvation on the Day of the Lord Jesus, that some rise from Hades into life, because God saves them on Judgment Day.

Only those NOT written in the Lamb's book of life, suffer eternal separation from God in the Lake which burns like a furnace with fire unquenchable, in bodies that experience painful corruption like worms devouring them, weeping and gnashing of teeth, indicative of intense physical pain:

13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:13-1 NKJ)


So we agree on that?

However, while comment was relevant to the Millennial kingdom, you made a very insightful comment when you noted the Law never saved anyone (except Jesus who actually did it perfectly)...it follows the same is true of Ezekiel's Temple during the Millennial reign of Christ, that doesn't save, its faith in God who authored it that saves.



God can't let these into the kingdom without being saved, can He? OF COURSE NOT, therefore God does what He did in the past with the Israelites, another dispensation of law returns for a 1,000 years, hence Ezekiel's Temple is different than the Mosaic Temple, its requirements different, and its much more glorious.[/color]

The Law never justified anyone, with one exception, Christ. This is because the keeping of the Law only gives life to the one who keeps it perfectly. The keeping of the Law never saved anyone (except only the author of life who could not be kept by death) ever at anytime, and it's never going to.


As stated above, I fully agree:

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. (Rom 3:28 NKJ)


But salvation by grace through faith is NOW, not in God's Millennial kingdom, for then faith is inferior to what is now, its not of the same quality, its not in things unseen, and hoped for.

The dispensation of grace now is special, its a different dispensation during the millennial kingdom, when so little faith will be required. The evidence of Christ will be everywhere.

I must admit, I agree to this, believeing that salvation by grace through faith in Christ is the only salvation offered.


I understand your agreement here is restricted to salvation by grace through faith, and not to anything else I said.

So if anyone reading this thinks you are doing wrong, realize his statement has a context, and its not my words, but the Orthodox doctrine of salvation by grace thorugh faith in Christ.

AND we agree on that.

It is written:

 11 "This is the`stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.'
 12 "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."
 (Act 4:11-12 NKJ)


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« Reply #79 on: July 26, 2011, 01:26:06 AM »

Millenialism is a failed philosophy of the 19th Century.

It didn't work for the Seventh Day Adventists, it didn't work for the Jehovah's Witnesses, it didn't work for Harold Camping, and it's not what the Orthodox believe, because it's not true.

You can't just point to verses or pages in the Bible and say they mean what you want them to mean. We can do that, too.

Any of us may as well scan pages of our Bibles, or go to Bible Gateway and copy and paste everything. Then I could write two sentences about it, and say, "See? I was right."

I suspect it still wouldn't make a difference, to someone who's here to engage in monologues and sophistry.

Incorrect:

Chapter XXXIII.—Further Proofs of the Same Proposition, Drawn from the Promises Made by Christ, When He Declared that He Would Drink of the Fruit of the Vine with His Disciples in His Father’s Kingdom, While at the Same Time He Promised to Reward Them an Hundred-Fold, and to Make Them Partake of Banquets. The Blessing Pronounced by Jacob Had Pointed Out This Already, as Papias and the Elders Have Interpreted It.

1. For this reason, when about to undergo His sufferings, that He might declare to Abraham and those with him the glad tidings of the inheritance being thrown open, [Christ], after He had given thanks while holding the cup, and had drunk of it, and given it to the disciples, said to them: “Drink ye all of it: this is My blood of the new covenant, which shall be shed for many for the remission of sins. But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of the fruit of this vine, until that day when I will drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”284 Thus, then, He will Himself renew the inheritance of the earth, and will re-organize the mystery of the glory of [His] sons; as David says, “He who hath renewed the face of the earth.”285 He promised to drink of the fruit of the vine with His disciples, thus indicating both these points: the inheritance of the earth in which the new fruit of the vine is drunk, and the resurrection of His disciples in the flesh. For the new flesh which rises again is the same which also received the new cup. And He cannot by any means be understood as drinking of the fruit of the vine when settled down with his [disciples] above in a super-celestial place; nor, again, are they who drink it devoid of flesh, for to drink of that which flows from the vine pertains to flesh, and not spirit.

2. And for this reason the Lord declared, “When thou makest a dinner or a supper, do not call thy friends, nor thy neighbours, nor thy kinsfolk, lest they ask thee in return, and so repay thee. But call the lame, the blind, and the poor, and thou shall be blessed, since they cannot recompense thee, but a recompense shall be made thee at the resurrection of the just.”286 And again He says, “Whosoever shall have left lands, or houses, or parents, or brethren, or children because of Me, he shall receive in this world an hundred-fold, and in that to come he shall inherit eternal life.”287 For what are the hundred-fold [rewards] in this word, the entertainments given to the poor, and the suppers for which a return is made? These are [to take place] in the times of the kingdom, that is, upon the seventh day, which has been sanctified, in which God rested from all the works which He created, which is the true Sabbath of the righteous, which they shall not be engaged in any earthly occupation; but shall have a table at hand prepared for them by God, supplying them with all sorts of dishes.

3. The blessing of Isaac with which he blessed his younger son Jacob has the same meaning, when he says, “Behold, the smell of my son is as the smell of a full field which the Lord has blessed.”288 But “the field is the world.”289 And therefore he added, “God give to thee of the dew of heaven, and of the fatness of the earth, plenty of corn and wine. And let the nations serve thee, and kings bow down to thee; and be thou lord over thy brother, and thy father’s sons shall bow down to thee: cursed shall be he who shall curse thee, and blessed shall be he who shall bless thee.”290 If any one, then, does not accept these things as referring to the appointed kingdom, he must fall into much contradiction and contrariety, as is the case with the Jews, who are involved in absolute perplexity. For not only did not the nations in this life serve this Jacob; but even after he had received the blessing, he himself going forth [from his home], served his uncle Laban the Syrian for twenty years;291 and not only was he not made lord of his brother, but he did himself bow down before his brother Esau, upon his return from Mesopotamia to his father, and offered many gifts to him.292 Moreover, in what way did he inherit much corn and wine here, he who emigrated to Egypt because of the famine which possessed the land in which he was dwelling, and became Subject to Pharaoh, who was then ruling over Egypt? The predicted blessing, therefore, belongs unquestionably to the times of the kingdom, when the righteous shall bear rule upon their rising from the dead;293 when also the creation, having been renovated and set free, shall fructify with an abundance of all kinds of food, from the dew of heaven, and from the fertility of the earth: as the elders who saw John, the disciple of the Lord, related that they had heard from him how the Lord used to teach in regard to these times, and say: The days will come, in which vines shall grow, each having ten thousand branches, and in each branch ten thousand twigs, and in each true294 twig ten thousand shoots, and in each one of the shoots ten thousand dusters, and on every one of the clusters ten thousand grapes, and every grape when pressed will give five and twenty metretes of wine. And when any one of the saints shall lay hold of a cluster,295 another shall cry out, “I am a better cluster, take me; bless the Lord through me.” In like manner [the Lord declared] that a grain of wheat would produce ten thousand ears, and that every ear should have ten thousand grains, and every grain would yield ten pounds (quinque bilibres) of clear, pure, fine flour; and that all other fruit-bearing trees,296 and seeds and grass, would produce in similar proportions (secundum congruentiam iis consequentem); and that all animals feeding [only] on the productions of the earth, should [in those days] become peaceful and harmonious among each other, and be in perfect subjection to man.

4. And these things are bone witness to in writing by Papias, the hearer of John, and a companion of Polycarp, in his fourth book; for there were five books compiled (συντεταγμένα) by him.297 And he says in addition, “Now these things are credible to believers.” And he says that, “when the traitor Judas did not give credit to them, and put the question, ‘How then can things about to bring forth so abundantly be wrought by the Lord? ’the Lord declared, ‘They who shall come to these [times] shall see.’”

Roberts, Alexander ;  Donaldson, James ;   Coxe, A. Cleveland: The Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol.I  : Translations of the Writings of the Fathers Down to A.D. 325. Oak Harbor : Logos Research Systems, 1997, S. 562
Alfred,

When you type or copy merely the text of the writing itself, the bibliographical reference is enough. However, you also copied even the footnote numbering, which means that you are also legally responsible to post the link to the exact Web page from which you copied the above text. The bibliographical reference you provided does not do that. You therefore have 72 hours (12:00 a.m., PDT, Thursday, July 28) to post a link to the Web page from which you copied the above text. If you fail to comply with this moderatorial directive, you will be placed immediately on post moderation for plagiarism and for continued violation of forum rules. If you disagree with this action, please appeal it via private message to Fr. George.


Not from a web page, LOGOS Libronix Bible software, the legal copyright was at the bottom of the quote, its supplied automatically whenever its copied:

Roberts, Alexander ;  Donaldson, James ;   Coxe, A. Cleveland: The Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol.I  : Translations of the Writings of the Fathers Down to A.D. 325. Oak Harbor : Logos Research Systems, 1997, S. 562


Its pricey, but worth it:
http://www.logos.com/

Then would you care to tell me why your text has all the footnote numbering of a Web page I just visited, the same exact numbers at the same exact locations in the text? (I'm not going to paste the link to that page here, since I don't want to take from you the responsibility I've placed upon you.)

Sherlock Holmes would infer they also copy pasted from Logos software.
I certainly hope this isn't some kind of wisecrack, since such disrespect for a moderatorial directive is not tolerated here at OC.net and will incur discipline all by itself. Now to the substance of your quip, the Web page of which I have spoken does not give any credit to Logos Software, nor do they post a bibliographical reference that even closely resembles that which you claim is auto-generated by Logos Software, so I find your explanation dubious. Please try again.

Wow! NO, not a wisecrack, its elementary deduction...the text verifiably comes from logos software, if the web site has the precise same text and foot notes, then its elementary they quoted the same thing I did, Logos software....OR, the actual texts that were digitized and put in Logos software...The Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol.I  : Translations of the Writings of the Fathers Down to A.D. 325.
But how can I verify this? All I have is your word that this is so, since I don't have a license to use Logos software and don't have the funds to purchase one.

On a different subject, I think this back-and-forth between you and me, working as I am in my capacity as a moderator, has gone on long enough on this thread and needs to go to the private message system. Please continue this conversation with me there.
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« Reply #80 on: July 26, 2011, 08:54:59 AM »

Had these billions of unbelievers died before Christ returned, they would have went to Hades, and SOME would repent upon learning the truth of the gospel would "live according to God in the spirit" 1 Pet 4:6 and then be saved in the Day of the Lord Jesus, at the final resurrection (1 Cor 5:5; Rev 20:11ff)[

I think there is agreement here.


Quote
But they didn't die, and God isn't going to kill them now.

No, Christ will make a point not to return until all the nations have had the Gospel preached to them.

I agree


Quote
So the 1,000 year reign of Christ is to test them, weed out those not written in the Lamb's book of life, and it culminates with Satan being let out of his prison, to tempt these once more...and many of them fail the test:

7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison
 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea.
 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.
 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (Rev 20:7-10 NKJ)

It sounds more like what this passage is trying to say is that no one will be tested during the thousand years, but will be tested after the thousand years when satan is released from his prison. That is, according to the passage quoted.


From the fact many defect after the Devil released indicates to me there were many in the Millennial kingdom who were never saved. The OT prophecies regarding the Millennial Kingdom do not show its populated only with believers, rather the Ezekiel Temple  with its sacrifices implies otherwise, and people can still die (as well as give birth) during this time:

20 Never again will one of her infants live just a few days or an old man die before his time. Indeed, no one will die before the age of a hundred, anyone who fails to reach the age of a hundred will be considered cursed.
 21 They will build houses and live in them; they will plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
 22 No longer will they build a house only to have another live in it, or plant a vineyard only to have another eat its fruit, for my people will live as long as trees, and my chosen ones will enjoy to the fullest what they have produced.
 23 They will not work in vain, or give birth to children that will experience disaster. For the LORD will bless their children and their descendants. (Isa 65:20-23 NET)

The millennial reign of Christ is when all the promises God made to Israel---that aren't fulfilled when New Jerusalem descends, are fulfilled. Not one promise of God to Israel and its patriarchs will be left wanting. God doesn't promise and fail to deliver.

I haven't studied this as much as I should, but Revelation c. 20 revealed these things quite plainly, BUT if you organize the Bible data concerning the end time according to that construct, the explanation is elegantly consistent with the relevant Bible texts and even those not so directly bearing on the question.

In fact, you could reverse the process and predict many of the OT texts about the Millennial would appear as they do---if you knew only Rev c. 20.


Quote
These things are plainly stated in scripture, which is why its the consensus of the fathers chilasm is apostolic doctrine. Its odd the Orthodox believe their opinions are more mature than what the apostles taught, what the Bible says.

St Justin Marytr who did believe in the thousand year reign had this to say

but, on the other hand, I signified to you that many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, think otherwise.[/color]


I agree this isn't necessary to the Christian faith, if one chooses to reject it, they suffer loss, but still can be true Christians.

So I agree with Justin.

He isn't so inclusive about those who hold believers go to heaven when they die, but that's another matter.


This isn't the only doctrine that became confused as time progressed, the Catholic doctrine of purgatory has its root in the apostolic doctrine of Hades as a place where all mankind is given their final warning against rebelling...prior to being cast into the lake of fire.

Irenaeus quotes Papias and to some that wording seems unbecoming of Jesus, too "materialistic." But in Ezekiel the wording is just as "materialistic" and one must realize all language is figurative to some degree...to say a tree will produce bountifully is to imply God has blessed the land and its people.

If the teaching weren't in Scripture I wouldn't believe it, as a "sola scripturaist" I can only consider teaching "doctrine to be followed" if its plainly taught in scripture. While I can consider non Biblical material in my studies, if the teaching is not in scripture, I cannot consider it a dogma of the Christian faith. "Only Scripture" is the highest authority because only it is indisputably the Word of God and He is The Supreme Being.

Hence a "consensus of the fathers" is not material to my beliefs, if a teaching is in scripture but not the fathers, it doesn't concern me at all.

Matt 16:18 illustrates the slow progression away from correct interpretation, where the rock is the "specific point of faith Peter confessed" to the Catholic idea Peter is the rock of the church. Or how Mary, the mother of Jesus, goes from a simple hand maiden of the Lord, to being immaculately conceived, and bodily assumed into heaven.

That's why I insist we reform all the way back to the apostles in the NT, what they taught alone is doctrine...everything that comes later is not.



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« Reply #81 on: July 26, 2011, 11:49:59 AM »

[quote author=Alfred Persson link=topic=38085.msg606662#msg606662

While you're thinking that over, a little more on millennialism, Dan 12 fits perfectly:

 5 Then I, Daniel, looked; and there stood two others, one on this riverbank and the other on that riverbank.
 6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, "How long shall the fulfillment of these wonders be?"
 7 Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished.
 8 Although I heard, I did not understand. Then I said, "My lord, what shall be the end of these things?"
 9 And he said, "Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
 (Dan 12:5-9 NKJ)

There are two angels with a river between them to show this chapter applies to different ends, the first advent of Christ which begins the 1000 year reign, at the start of which shall be a resurrection, and an "out" resurrection...that is, "many" rise Dan 12:2, not "all" as this isn't the final resurrection in the Day of the Lord Jesus, Judgment Day. This resurrection applies to the many who were called, but few were chosen to become kings and priests of our God.

Then the 1000 year reign.

Christ (the man in linen above the waters) identifies this period by referring to the 3.5 years, "a time, times and half a time."

Verse 8. BUT Daniel knows this isn't the end and so he is confused, when will the END be?

In verse 11 the daily sacrifice is mentioned...this is in Ezekiel's prophesied Temple that will be built during the millennial kingdom. This is why the days are different, 1290 days is NOT 1260 days, the difference indicates this is about a different time, applying to the end of the Millennial kingdom, when Satan is let out and he leads Gog and Magog to attack those Israelites God regathered from the nations (Ezek. 38-39; Rev 20:7ff).

 11 "And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.
 12 "Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.
 13 "But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days." (Dan 12:11-13 NKJ)

So it all fits perfectly, and the ambiguity vanishes, when Rev 20 is married to Dan 12 and Ezek c. 38-39. And there are other texts.[/color]

You forgot the preceding verses, especially verse 2. This does not seem to fit well with your understanding of the pre-millenial resurrection. Also "many" can in some cases refer to "all", for example "many" are called does not imply that God will refuse to call anyone that He created.



Daniel 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

I concede "all" doesn't always mean "all" and "many" or "some" can mean all of a particular group. Context and relevant texts alone can decide the reference.

AND I concede Dan 12:2 the reference to the resurrection of the dammed, which would seem to make it refer to the final judgment in Rev 20:11ff, seems to be placed---"all these things will be finished" (Dan 12:7) to time frame containing the 3 1/2 times, the time of the Antichrist and Christ's Return.

Finally, the reference to the abomination of desolation in 12:11 would seem to contradict my interpreting this as a different time frame than the final week containing the Antichrist and the Return of Christ.


Taking the last concession first, I note this abomination of desolation seems to be a recurring event, the book of 1 Maccabees applies it to Antiochus IV Epiphanes and his erecting a Zeus statue in the Temple area. Therefore is not improbable something similar will occur a third time when the Devil is released from his prison and deceives the world. That the Devil will repeat what worked for him in the past is consistent with scripture.


When the angel says "all these things will be finished," I can cite your objection "many" can be all, and its reverse, "all" can be less than all. But I won't.

Rather I think this is an example of "prophetic telescoping", the resurrection to glory of the righteous happens also in the final resurrection in Rev 20:11ff, and also the power of the Holy people will again be exhausted then as when the Antichrist does it:

7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison
 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea.
 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. (Rev 20:7-9 NKJ)

It all seems like a Satanic "redo" so it gets "prophetically telescoped" in Dan 12:2, but 12:3 returns to speaking of only the resurrection of the righteous.

Because Christ doesn't mention resurrections in Mat 25:32ff, and because Rev 20:4-5 separates the "first resurrection" from that of all mankind in Rev 20:11ff, I think it possible this is prophetic telescoping.

Of course I could be wrong.

32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
 33 "And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. (Mat 25:32-33 NKJ)

But it fits that I'm not. The Millennial Kingdom still has unsaved people in it who sin and die, and go to hell (Isa 65:20).

Finally, I agree God calls all to salvation, He not only wants all to be saved, He goes the extra mile to make it happen. That's what Hades is, the final warning against being eternally lost...but anyone who sinned against the Holy Spirit have already committed the eternal sin, as did Judas and Satan and his angels...and there must be others already eternally lost.


Quote
ps: Many called, few chosen...called but failed to respond adequately, and "coincidentally" their names were not among those chosen before the founding of the world (Eph 1:4), written in the Lamb's book of life. What a coincidence! (Their blood is on their own head, they could have made it (Gen 4:7ff; Mat 13:15) had they not closed their hearts:


 26 "But his lord answered and said to him,`You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed.
 27 `So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest.
 28 `Therefore take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.
 29 `For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away.
 30 `And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
 (Mat 25:26-30 NKJ)

So God foreknows who will respond positively, ensuring their election, and it is those who are predistined by being written in the book of life. God does not predetermine our response for us, but foreknows our reponse and predetermines how He deals with us according to our reponse to Him.

I disagree because that is inconsistent with scripture teaching salvation is a gift, and even the "saving faith" we have in Christ now, comes from God, and is "not of ourselves":

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. (Eph 2:8-10 NKJ)

In other words, we didn't create ourselves in Christ, God did, we are His workmanship.

I believe mankind would end up like Sodom and Gomorrah if God didn't save His children, few would have made it. The seductive power of sin and power of Satan to deceive too strong for a different outcome. So God chose to save His children, predestining they would be saved.

This happened before they did good or bad, so salvation is not of themselves:

11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), (Rom 9:11 NKJ)

But this doesn't make God partial as though He unjustly let some perish.

God leaves the door to salvation open to those He didn't select, and He tries to save them by all possible means, except denying them their free will.

That's what Hades is, their last chance to repent, and be saved in the Day of the Lord Jesus.

That they refuse, and only those not found written in the book of life go into the lake of fire, only proves God was not unjust to NOT predestine they be saved. They didn't want to be, and letting them into His kingdom would only result in their rebelling against heaven just as their father the Devil did.

To illustrate this concept, suppose there were a King who had a fleet of cars he chose to be in his fleet, but doesn't reveal to anyone why He likes them. He chose these "according to the good pleasure of His will" (Eph 1:5) and He won't explain to anyone what precisely that means, except to say his reasons are beyond what these cars can do (Rom 8:28; 9:11; Eph 2:8). Evidently its none of our business...its something He has reserved for Himself.

BUT there are detractors, murmurers who complain the King was unjustly allowing these cars into his fleet, that they are actually defective and not fit for service. So the king allows these be road tested, to prove that isn't true.

The king didn't reveal why he chose these cars, he only revealed his selection was not unjust.

AND he never excluded other cars from joining his fleet:

7 "If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it." (Gen 4:7 NKJ)

15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.' (Mat 13:15 NKJ)


16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. (Joh 3:16 NKJ)

Even Pharaoh, whom Paul cites illustrating God's sovereign right to do as He wills with anyone of us, does not prove the murmurer was right that God is unjust for none of us resist His will:

17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth."
 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
 19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?"
 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?"
 (Rom 9:17-20 NKJ)

It does not follow from God's hardening that the Pharoah was not a willing participant, that his free will was violated.

11 But Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers; so the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments.
 12 For every man threw down his rod, and they became serpents. But Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods.
 13 And Pharaoh's heart grew hard, and he did not heed them, as the LORD had said.
 14 So the LORD said to Moses (Exo 7:11-14 NKJ)

When God hardens a heart, its so it does the evil it wants to do, has chosen to do, but in a way that serves God's purpose:

11 And the magicians could not stand before Moses because of the boils, for the boils were on the magicians and on all the Egyptians. (Exo 9:11 NKJ)

God endures vessels of wrath to make Himself and His ways known:

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,
 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? (Rom 9:22-24 NKJ)

Never is God unjust. When it is revealed how strenuously God worked to save all, and not anyone perish, all tongues wagging against Him shall be stopped:

4 Who shall not fear You, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You alone are holy. For all nations shall come and worship before You, For Your judgments have been manifested." (Rev 15:4 NKJ)


God is perfect in His Love and Mercy and Justice, never has He done anyone wrong who didn't deserve it, who didn't choose it.

Pharaoh should have seen the "finger of God" in what God did through Moses, but he hardened his own heart, choosing to fight God...that has its everlasting consequences:


19 Then the magicians said to Pharaoh, "This is the finger of God." But Pharaoh's heart grew hard, and he did not heed them, just as the LORD had said. (Exo 8:19 NKJ)




So, what (excluding millenialism) do you have to say about hades?
[/quote]


I've already noted the words Sheol/Hades refers generally to the "unseen realm" whose extremes are third heaven or paradise, down to the lowest Hell. The texts showing both good and bad enter Sheol/Hades but also show the righteous in Abraham's bos'm in Third heaven or paradise, and the wicked beneath the earth in torments, prove this correct.

That Hades is often used exclusively for the lower regions doesn't contradict this. It has a range of meaning.

Hades is the last stop before the lake of fire for the wicked, it ensures they understand precisely what is in store for them, if they don't repent.

Of course some have sinned eternally and these are in the lowest hell, awaiting their contemptible resurrection body which will serve as their prison for all eternity, as they burn in the garbage dump of Gehenna, a furnace of fire, also known as the Lake of fire. They are figuratively "bound" hand and foot to mean they cannot physically move to lessen their torment, only weeping and gnashing of teeth because of the intense physical pain, is possible:

30 `And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' (Mat 25:30 NKJ)


This prefigures the resurrection of humans and the imprisonment of angels in unclean contemptible bodies:

11 Now a large herd of swine was feeding there near the mountains.
 12 So all the demons begged Him, saying, "Send us to the swine, that we may enter them."
 13 And at once Jesus gave them permission. Then the unclean spirits went out and entered the swine (there were about two thousand); and the herd ran violently down the steep place into the sea, and drowned in the sea. (Mar 5:11-13 NKJ)


Because they are carcasses, they don't have the ability to see, everything is dark even though they are in flames:

24 "And they shall go forth and look Upon the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm does not die, And their fire is not quenched. They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh." (Isa 66:24-1 NKJ)


END
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« Reply #82 on: July 26, 2011, 12:30:33 PM »

[quote author=Alfred Persson link=topic=38085.msg606662#msg606662

While you're thinking that over, a little more on millennialism, Dan 12 fits perfectly:

 5 Then I, Daniel, looked; and there stood two others, one on this riverbank and the other on that riverbank.
 6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, "How long shall the fulfillment of these wonders be?"
 7 Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished.
 8 Although I heard, I did not understand. Then I said, "My lord, what shall be the end of these things?"
 9 And he said, "Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
 (Dan 12:5-9 NKJ)

There are two angels with a river between them to show this chapter applies to different ends, the first advent of Christ which begins the 1000 year reign, at the start of which shall be a resurrection, and an "out" resurrection...that is, "many" rise Dan 12:2, not "all" as this isn't the final resurrection in the Day of the Lord Jesus, Judgment Day. This resurrection applies to the many who were called, but few were chosen to become kings and priests of our God.

Then the 1000 year reign.

Christ (the man in linen above the waters) identifies this period by referring to the 3.5 years, "a time, times and half a time."

Verse 8. BUT Daniel knows this isn't the end and so he is confused, when will the END be?

In verse 11 the daily sacrifice is mentioned...this is in Ezekiel's prophesied Temple that will be built during the millennial kingdom. This is why the days are different, 1290 days is NOT 1260 days, the difference indicates this is about a different time, applying to the end of the Millennial kingdom, when Satan is let out and he leads Gog and Magog to attack those Israelites God regathered from the nations (Ezek. 38-39; Rev 20:7ff).

 11 "And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.
 12 "Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.
 13 "But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days." (Dan 12:11-13 NKJ)

So it all fits perfectly, and the ambiguity vanishes, when Rev 20 is married to Dan 12 and Ezek c. 38-39. And there are other texts.[/color]

You forgot the preceding verses, especially verse 2. This does not seem to fit well with your understanding of the pre-millenial resurrection. Also "many" can in some cases refer to "all", for example "many" are called does not imply that God will refuse to call anyone that He created.



Daniel 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

I concede "all" doesn't always mean "all" and "many" or "some" can mean all of a particular group. Context and relevant texts alone can decide the reference.

AND I concede Dan 12:2 the reference to the resurrection of the dammed, which would seem to make it refer to the final judgment in Rev 20:11ff, seems to be placed---"all these things will be finished" (Dan 12:7) to time frame containing the 3 1/2 times, the time of the Antichrist and Christ's Return.

Finally, the reference to the abomination of desolation in 12:11 would seem to contradict my interpreting this as a different time frame than the final week containing the Antichrist and the Return of Christ.


Taking the last concession first, I note this abomination of desolation seems to be a recurring event, the book of 1 Maccabees applies it to Antiochus IV Epiphanes and his erecting a Zeus statue in the Temple area. Therefore is not improbable something similar will occur a third time when the Devil is released from his prison and deceives the world. That the Devil will repeat what worked for him in the past is consistent with scripture.


When the angel says "all these things will be finished," I can cite your objection "many" can be all, and its reverse, "all" can be less than all. But I won't.

Rather I think this is an example of "prophetic telescoping", the resurrection to glory of the righteous happens also in the final resurrection in Rev 20:11ff, and also the power of the Holy people will again be exhausted then as when the Antichrist does it:

7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison
 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea.
 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. (Rev 20:7-9 NKJ)

It all seems like a Satanic "redo" so it gets "prophetically telescoped" in Dan 12:2, but 12:3 returns to speaking of only the resurrection of the righteous.

Because Christ doesn't mention resurrections in Mat 25:32ff, and because Rev 20:4-5 separates the "first resurrection" from that of all mankind in Rev 20:11ff, I think it possible this is prophetic telescoping.

Of course I could be wrong.

32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
 33 "And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. (Mat 25:32-33 NKJ)

But it fits that I'm not. The Millennial Kingdom still has unsaved people in it who sin and die, and go to hell (Isa 65:20).

Finally, I agree God calls all to salvation, He not only wants all to be saved, He goes the extra mile to make it happen. That's what Hades is, the final warning against being eternally lost...but anyone who sinned against the Holy Spirit have already committed the eternal sin, as did Judas and Satan and his angels...and there must be others already eternally lost.


Quote
ps: Many called, few chosen...called but failed to respond adequately, and "coincidentally" their names were not among those chosen before the founding of the world (Eph 1:4), written in the Lamb's book of life. What a coincidence! (Their blood is on their own head, they could have made it (Gen 4:7ff; Mat 13:15) had they not closed their hearts:


 26 "But his lord answered and said to him,`You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed.
 27 `So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest.
 28 `Therefore take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.
 29 `For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away.
 30 `And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
 (Mat 25:26-30 NKJ)

So God foreknows who will respond positively, ensuring their election, and it is those who are predistined by being written in the book of life. God does not predetermine our response for us, but foreknows our reponse and predetermines how He deals with us according to our reponse to Him.

I disagree because that is inconsistent with scripture teaching salvation is a gift, and even the "saving faith" we have in Christ now, comes from God, and is "not of ourselves":

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. (Eph 2:8-10 NKJ)

In other words, we didn't create ourselves in Christ, God did, we are His workmanship.

I believe mankind would end up like Sodom and Gomorrah if God didn't save His children, few would have made it. The seductive power of sin and power of Satan to deceive too strong for a different outcome. So God chose to save His children, predestining they would be saved.

This happened before they did good or bad, so salvation is not of themselves:

11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), (Rom 9:11 NKJ)

But this doesn't make God partial as though He unjustly let some perish.

God leaves the door to salvation open to those He didn't select, and He tries to save them by all possible means, except denying them their free will.

That's what Hades is, their last chance to repent, and be saved in the Day of the Lord Jesus.

That they refuse, and only those not found written in the book of life go into the lake of fire, only proves God was not unjust to NOT predestine they be saved. They didn't want to be, and letting them into His kingdom would only result in their rebelling against heaven just as their father the Devil did.

To illustrate this concept, suppose there were a King who had a fleet of cars he chose to be in his fleet, but doesn't reveal to anyone why He likes them. He chose these "according to the good pleasure of His will" (Eph 1:5) and He won't explain to anyone what precisely that means, except to say his reasons are beyond what these cars can do (Rom 8:28; 9:11; Eph 2:8). Evidently its none of our business...its something He has reserved for Himself.

BUT there are detractors, murmurers who complain the King was unjustly allowing these cars into his fleet, that they are actually defective and not fit for service. So the king allows these be road tested, to prove that isn't true.

The king didn't reveal why he chose these cars, he only revealed his selection was not unjust.

AND he never excluded other cars from joining his fleet:

7 "If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it." (Gen 4:7 NKJ)

15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.' (Mat 13:15 NKJ)


16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. (Joh 3:16 NKJ)

Even Pharaoh, whom Paul cites illustrating God's sovereign right to do as He wills with anyone of us, does not prove the murmurer was right that God is unjust for none of us resist His will:

17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth."
 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
 19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?"
 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?"
 (Rom 9:17-20 NKJ)

It does not follow from God's hardening that the Pharoah was not a willing participant, that his free will was violated.

11 But Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers; so the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments.
 12 For every man threw down his rod, and they became serpents. But Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods.
 13 And Pharaoh's heart grew hard, and he did not heed them, as the LORD had said.
 14 So the LORD said to Moses (Exo 7:11-14 NKJ)

When God hardens a heart, its so it does the evil it wants to do, has chosen to do, but in a way that serves God's purpose:

11 And the magicians could not stand before Moses because of the boils, for the boils were on the magicians and on all the Egyptians. (Exo 9:11 NKJ)

God endures vessels of wrath to make Himself and His ways known:

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,
 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? (Rom 9:22-24 NKJ)

Never is God unjust. When it is revealed how strenuously God worked to save all, and not anyone perish, all tongues wagging against Him shall be stopped:

4 Who shall not fear You, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You alone are holy. For all nations shall come and worship before You, For Your judgments have been manifested." (Rev 15:4 NKJ)


God is perfect in His Love and Mercy and Justice, never has He done anyone wrong who didn't deserve it, who didn't choose it.

Pharaoh should have seen the "finger of God" in what God did through Moses, but he hardened his own heart, choosing to fight God...that has its everlasting consequences:


19 Then the magicians said to Pharaoh, "This is the finger of God." But Pharaoh's heart grew hard, and he did not heed them, just as the LORD had said. (Exo 8:19 NKJ)




So, what (excluding millenialism) do you have to say about hades?



I've already noted the words Sheol/Hades refers generally to the "unseen realm" whose extremes are third heaven or paradise, down to the lowest Hell. The texts showing both good and bad enter Sheol/Hades but also show the righteous in Abraham's bos'm in Third heaven or paradise, and the wicked beneath the earth in torments, prove this correct.

That Hades is often used exclusively for the lower regions doesn't contradict this. It has a range of meaning.

Hades is the last stop before the lake of fire for the wicked, it ensures they understand precisely what is in store for them, if they don't repent.

Of course some have sinned eternally and these are in the lowest hell, awaiting their contemptible resurrection body which will serve as their prison for all eternity, as they burn in the garbage dump of Gehenna, a furnace of fire, also known as the Lake of fire. They are figuratively "bound" hand and foot to mean they cannot physically move to lessen their torment, only weeping and gnashing of teeth because of the intense physical pain, is possible:

30 `And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' (Mat 25:30 NKJ)


This prefigures the resurrection of humans and the imprisonment of angels in unclean contemptible bodies:

11 Now a large herd of swine was feeding there near the mountains.
 12 So all the demons begged Him, saying, "Send us to the swine, that we may enter them."
 13 And at once Jesus gave them permission. Then the unclean spirits went out and entered the swine (there were about two thousand); and the herd ran violently down the steep place into the sea, and drowned in the sea. (Mar 5:11-13 NKJ)


Because they are carcasses, they don't have the ability to see, everything is dark even though they are in flames:

24 "And they shall go forth and look Upon the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm does not die, And their fire is not quenched. They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh." (Isa 66:24-1 NKJ)


END


Corrections:

It does not follow from God's hardening that the Pharoah was not a willing participant, that his free will was violated.

11 But Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers; so the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments.
 12 For every man threw down his rod, and they became serpents. But Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods.
 13 And Pharaoh's heart grew hard, and he did not heed them, as the LORD had said.
14 So the LORD said to Moses: "Pharaoh's heart is hard; he refuses to let the people go. (Exo 7:11-14 NKJ)


When God hardens a heart, its so it does the evil it wants to do, has chosen to do, but in a way that serves God's purpose:

NKJ  Exodus 9:16 "But indeed for this purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.
 (Exo 9:16 NKJ)


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« Reply #83 on: July 26, 2011, 01:20:26 PM »

Alfred, I can't help but notice you're arguing against Catholic teachings (still ... ) ... you do know that the Orthodox do not believe in (for example) the Immaculate Conception or Purgatory .. right?
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« Reply #84 on: July 26, 2011, 01:45:34 PM »

Alfred, I can't help but notice you're arguing against Catholic teachings (still ... ) ... you do know that the Orthodox do not believe in (for example) the Immaculate Conception or Purgatory .. right?

You read all that?

It's too jumbled for me to care about deciphering. I really wish he'd organize his posts more... like quote boxes, sectioned thoughts, theological support, and shrubbery with a path down the middle.
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« Reply #85 on: July 26, 2011, 02:09:48 PM »

Just as a note for those who might be interested in a real discussion of the issue.

My understanding is this:

God is love and is loving.

Some people actually hate God, even if they do not know what it is that they hate.

This "some" is actually "most". Most people love pleasures more, love power more and God is just a nuisance in all this.

We all know how it causes us to suffer to be in the presence of what we despise. Much less to be governed or bossed by people or situations we hate. Some say it feels like hell. It sure does.

Because for this age and world God is Saviour, He kenotically contains the total manifestation of His love, for He knows He is hated by many people and having His love thrown at their face would make them suffer. But this love will not be contained forever. Eschatology is precisely about the full manifestation of the love of God. Those who hate Him, who hate being loved by Him, will hate it and suffer. Because this full manifestation of God's love will be the resurrection of our bodies in a definitive glorified flesh, our very flesh will be clearly the manifestation of God's love (today that can be dodged by our conscience, then it won't be possible). So haters will have this reality thrown at their faces all the time and will be taken for that place reserved for demons simply because it is the place were the presence of God is fainter. But still present and they will still be suffering. Through their present life they made themselves haters of Love and haters of God, making this their very essence. It's this essence that will receive the immortal body. And that is why their suffering will be eternal.
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« Reply #86 on: July 26, 2011, 04:33:44 PM »

/\  Fabio,

This is a very confused message...

You go from some people hate God

to most people hate God.

Then you wind that back to many people hate God.

Are these people whom you know?
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« Reply #87 on: July 26, 2011, 08:45:10 PM »

Alfred, I can't help but notice you're arguing against Catholic teachings (still ... ) ... you do know that the Orthodox do not believe in (for example) the Immaculate Conception or Purgatory .. right?

Didn't argue against them, cited them as proof of a human tendency to not remain in the doctrine of the apostles:

NJB  2 John 1:9 If anybody does not remain in the teaching of Christ but goes beyond it, he does not have God with him: only those who remain in what he taught can have the Father and the Son with them. (2Jo 1:9 NJB)

Humble Mary the handmaiden of the LORD became Queen of Heaven, immaculately conceived and bodily assumpted into heaven, without her motivating God to help us, apparently He does nothing. (Its a wonder "God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son," without Mary prodding Him to do it---it is so out of character God love anything, without Mary Mediatrix and CoRedemptrix, nagging Him!).


The life giving rock from which living water comes out, the gospel of Christ which Peter confessed, upon which the church is built, each living stone by living stone, becomes Peter and then Roman Catholic popes...

Amazing how things get complicated.

From the simplicity that is in Christ. (2Co 11:3 NKJ) religious rites evolve that cannot be found in scripture, are not taught by the apostles, are not what Christ said we are to do.

All of that I object to.

The Protestant reformation failed to go all the way back, they retained many Catholic premises, especially in eschatology...leaving the entire mass leavened, so that today the confusion about these things leads many to disbelieve it all, and propose Hell doesn't exist.

It does, and all who disbelieve scripture won't, at least not under the sun, soon enough.

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« Reply #88 on: July 26, 2011, 10:31:54 PM »

24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
 25 "Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
 26 "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,
 27 "and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
 28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
 29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Joh 5:24-29 NKJ)

Verse 24 refers to believing in this life and so passing "from death into life."

Verse 25 is not repeating this, here Jesus is speaking of the dead "who are in the graves" (v. 28); "now is" the time the dead hear, and "those who hear" (obey) "will live" and in the hour that is coming, will come forth into a resurrection of life; [and those who did not obey]---unto a resurrection of condemnation.

"The hour is coming refers to the future:

21 Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. (Joh 4:21 NKJ)

"And now is" refers to the present:

23 "But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. (Joh 4:23 NKJ)


Christ identifies what is present in v. 25 " and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live."

Christ identifies what is future in v. 28 "for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
 29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation."

Therefore Christ taught repentance in Hades [now] and salvation in the Day of the Lord Jesus (John 5:22-23), at Judgment Day---when the dead hear His voice and come out from Death and Hades:[/color]

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:11-15 NKJ)

Peter finds another application of this:

 4 In regard to these, they think it strange that you do not run with them in the same flood of dissipation, speaking evil of you.
 5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
 6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
 (1Pe 4:4-6 NKJ)

Those who heard Peter's preaching, but thought it strange any turn from the pleasure of sin now, must give an account to God. FOR THIS REASON God ordained Peter preach to them, so that after they die, they can live according to God in the spirit.

But they must wait for the Day of the Lord Jesus to be saved, just as this sinning church goer who hadn't converted:

 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1Co 5:5 NKJ)


Christ was very clear, there is no crossing over from Hades into salvation (Luke 16:26), all must remain there until judgment Day, the Day of the LORD Jesus (John 5:22-23), when He sits on the Throne, and commands all in Death and Hell come forth, and also the demons from the abyss in the Sea.



« Last Edit: July 26, 2011, 10:57:37 PM by Alfred Persson » Logged

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)
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Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #89 on: July 26, 2011, 11:35:04 PM »

Alfred, I can't help but notice you're arguing against Catholic teachings (still ... ) ... you do know that the Orthodox do not believe in (for example) the Immaculate Conception or Purgatory .. right?

Didn't argue against them, cited them as proof of a human tendency to not remain in the doctrine of the apostles:
And I suppose you think you're immune to this tendency.
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