[quote author=Alfred Persson link=topic=38085.msg606662#msg606662
While you're thinking that over, a little more on millennialism, Dan 12 fits perfectly:
5 Then I, Daniel, looked; and there stood two others, one on this riverbank and the other on that riverbank.
6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, "How long shall the fulfillment of these wonders be?"
7 Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished.
8 Although I heard, I did not understand. Then I said, "My lord, what shall be the end of these things?"
9 And he said, "Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
(Dan 12:5-9 NKJ)
There are two angels with a river between them to show this chapter applies to different ends, the first advent of Christ which begins the 1000 year reign, at the start of which shall be a resurrection, and an "out" resurrection...that is, "many" rise Dan 12:2, not "all" as this isn't the final resurrection in the Day of the Lord Jesus, Judgment Day. This resurrection applies to the many who were called, but few were chosen to become kings and priests of our God.
Then the 1000 year reign.
Christ (the man in linen above the waters) identifies this period by referring to the 3.5 years, "a time, times and half a time."
Verse 8. BUT Daniel knows this isn't the end and so he is confused, when will the END be?
In verse 11 the daily sacrifice is mentioned...this is in Ezekiel's prophesied Temple that will be built during the millennial kingdom. This is why the days are different, 1290 days is NOT 1260 days, the difference indicates this is about a different time, applying to the end of the Millennial kingdom, when Satan is let out and he leads Gog and Magog to attack those Israelites God regathered from the nations (Ezek. 38-39; Rev 20:7ff).
11 "And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 "Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.
13 "But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days." (Dan 12:11-13 NKJ)
So it all fits perfectly, and the ambiguity vanishes, when Rev 20 is married to Dan 12 and Ezek c. 38-39. And there are other texts.[/color]
You forgot the preceding verses, especially verse 2. This does not seem to fit well with your understanding of the pre-millenial resurrection. Also "many" can in some cases refer to "all", for example "many" are called does not imply that God will refuse to call anyone that He created.
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
I concede "all" doesn't always mean "all" and "many" or "some" can mean all of a particular group. Context and relevant texts alone can decide the reference.
AND I concede Dan 12:2 the reference to the resurrection of the dammed, which would seem to make it refer to the final judgment in Rev 20:11ff, seems to be placed---"all these things will be finished" (Dan 12:7) to time frame containing the 3 1/2 times, the time of the Antichrist and Christ's Return.
Finally, the reference to the abomination of desolation in 12:11 would seem to contradict my interpreting this as a different time frame than the final week containing the Antichrist and the Return of Christ.
Taking the last concession first, I note this abomination of desolation seems to be a recurring event, the book of 1 Maccabees applies it to Antiochus IV Epiphanes and his erecting a Zeus statue in the Temple area. Therefore is not improbable something similar will occur a third time when the Devil is released from his prison and deceives the world. That the Devil will repeat what worked for him in the past is consistent with scripture.
When the angel says "all these things will be finished," I can cite your objection "many" can be all, and its reverse, "all" can be less than all. But I won't.
Rather I think this is an example of "prophetic telescoping", the resurrection to glory of the righteous happens also in the final resurrection in Rev 20:11ff, and also the power of the Holy people will again be exhausted then as when the Antichrist does it:
7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison
8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea.
9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. (Rev 20:7-9 NKJ)
It all seems like a Satanic "redo" so it gets "prophetically telescoped" in Dan 12:2, but 12:3 returns to speaking of only the resurrection of the righteous.
Because Christ doesn't mention resurrections in Mat 25:32ff, and because Rev 20:4-5 separates the "first resurrection" from that of all mankind in Rev 20:11ff, I think it possible this is prophetic telescoping.
Of course I could be wrong.
32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
33 "And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. (Mat 25:32-33 NKJ)
But it fits that I'm not. The Millennial Kingdom still has unsaved people in it who sin and die, and go to hell (Isa 65:20).
Finally, I agree God calls all to salvation, He not only wants all to be saved, He goes the extra mile to make it happen. That's what Hades is, the final warning against being eternally lost...but anyone who sinned against the Holy Spirit have already committed the eternal sin, as did Judas and Satan and his angels...and there must be others already eternally lost.
ps: Many called, few chosen...called but failed to respond adequately, and "coincidentally" their names were not among those chosen before the founding of the world (Eph 1:4), written in the Lamb's book of life. What a coincidence! (Their blood is on their own head, they could have made it (Gen 4:7ff; Mat 13:15) had they not closed their hearts:
26 "But his lord answered and said to him,`You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed.
27 `So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest.
28 `Therefore take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.
29 `For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away.
30 `And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
(Mat 25:26-30 NKJ)
So God foreknows who will respond positively, ensuring their election, and it is those who are predistined by being written in the book of life. God does not predetermine our response for us, but foreknows our reponse and predetermines how He deals with us according to our reponse to Him.
I disagree because that is inconsistent with scripture teaching salvation is a gift, and even the "saving faith" we have in Christ now, comes from God, and is "not of ourselves":
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. (Eph 2:8-10 NKJ)
In other words, we didn't create ourselves in Christ, God did, we are His workmanship.
I believe mankind would end up like Sodom and Gomorrah if God didn't save His children, few would have made it. The seductive power of sin and power of Satan to deceive too strong for a different outcome. So God chose to save His children, predestining they would be saved.
This happened before they did good or bad, so salvation is not of themselves:
11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), (Rom 9:11 NKJ)
But this doesn't make God partial as though He unjustly let some perish.
God leaves the door to salvation open to those He didn't select, and He tries to save them by all possible means, except denying them their free will.
That's what Hades is, their last chance to repent, and be saved in the Day of the Lord Jesus.
That they refuse, and only those not found written in the book of life go into the lake of fire, only proves God was not unjust to NOT predestine they be saved. They didn't want to be, and letting them into His kingdom would only result in their rebelling against heaven just as their father the Devil did.
To illustrate this concept, suppose there were a King who had a fleet of cars he chose to be in his fleet, but doesn't reveal to anyone why He likes them. He chose these "according to the good pleasure of His will" (Eph 1:5) and He won't explain to anyone what precisely that means, except to say his reasons are beyond what these cars can do (Rom 8:28; 9:11; Eph 2:8). Evidently its none of our business...its something He has reserved for Himself.
BUT there are detractors, murmurers who complain the King was unjustly allowing these cars into his fleet, that they are actually defective and not fit for service. So the king allows these be road tested, to prove that isn't true.
The king didn't reveal why he chose these cars, he only revealed his selection was not unjust.
AND he never excluded other cars from joining his fleet:
7 "If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it." (Gen 4:7 NKJ)
15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.' (Mat 13:15 NKJ)
16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. (Joh 3:16 NKJ)
Even Pharaoh, whom Paul cites illustrating God's sovereign right to do as He wills with anyone of us, does not prove the murmurer was right that God is unjust for none of us resist His will:
17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth."
18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?"
20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?"
(Rom 9:17-20 NKJ)It does not follow from God's hardening that the Pharoah was not a willing participant, that his free will was violated.
11 But Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers; so the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments.
12 For every man threw down his rod, and they became serpents. But Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods.
13 And Pharaoh's heart grew hard, and he did not heed them, as the LORD had said.
14 So the LORD said to Moses (Exo 7:11-14 NKJ)
When God hardens a heart, its so it does the evil it wants to do, has chosen to do, but in a way that serves God's purpose:
11 And the magicians could not stand before Moses because of the boils, for the boils were on the magicians and on all the Egyptians. (Exo 9:11 NKJ)
God endures vessels of wrath to make Himself and His ways known:
22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,
24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? (Rom 9:22-24 NKJ)
Never is God unjust. When it is revealed how strenuously God worked to save all, and not anyone perish, all tongues wagging against Him shall be stopped:
4 Who shall not fear You, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You alone are holy. For all nations shall come and worship before You, For Your judgments have been manifested
." (Rev 15:4 NKJ)
God is perfect in His Love and Mercy and Justice, never has He done anyone wrong who didn't deserve it, who didn't choose it.
Pharaoh should have seen the "finger of God" in what God did through Moses, but he hardened his own heart, choosing to fight God...that has its everlasting consequences:
19 Then the magicians said to Pharaoh, "This is the finger of God." But Pharaoh's heart grew hard, and he did not heed them, just as the LORD had said. (Exo 8:19 NKJ)So, what (excluding millenialism) do you have to say about hades?
I've already noted the words Sheol/Hades refers generally to the "unseen realm" whose extremes are third heaven or paradise, down to the lowest Hell. The texts showing both good and bad enter Sheol/Hades but also show the righteous in Abraham's bos'm in Third heaven or paradise, and the wicked beneath the earth in torments, prove this correct.
That Hades is often used exclusively for the lower regions doesn't contradict this. It has a range of meaning.
Hades is the last stop before the lake of fire for the wicked, it ensures they understand precisely what is in store for them, if they don't repent.
Of course some have sinned eternally and these are in the lowest hell, awaiting their contemptible resurrection body which will serve as their prison for all eternity, as they burn in the garbage dump of Gehenna, a furnace of fire, also known as the Lake of fire. They are figuratively "bound" hand and foot to mean they cannot physically move to lessen their torment, only weeping and gnashing of teeth because of the intense physical pain, is possible:
30 `And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' (Mat 25:30 NKJ)
This prefigures the resurrection of humans and the imprisonment of angels in unclean contemptible bodies:
11 Now a large herd of swine was feeding there near the mountains.
12 So all the demons begged Him, saying, "Send us to the swine, that we may enter them."
13 And at once Jesus gave them permission. Then the unclean spirits went out and entered the swine (there were about two thousand); and the herd ran violently down the steep place into the sea, and drowned in the sea. (Mar 5:11-13 NKJ)
Because they are carcasses, they don't have the ability to see, everything is dark even though they are in flames:
24 "And they shall go forth and look Upon the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm does not die, And their fire is not quenched. They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh." (Isa 66:24-1 NKJ)