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Author Topic: The Problem of Hell and a loving God  (Read 16179 times) Average Rating: 0
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Alfred Persson
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« on: July 21, 2011, 01:52:48 AM »

The only problem with Hell is Christians not knowing what they hell they are talking about

Elect not saved in this life, rise from Hell to be saved in the Day of the LORD Jesus, Judgment Day. Only the Children of the Devil are lost.

Hell is God doing what murmurers always claimed God should do, make it completely clear what the consequences are.

Hell is God going the extra mile, trying to save all.


11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
 (Rev 20:11-15 KJV)

"The earth and heaven fled away" uncovering both men and angels, compare  "heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together...And the kings of the earth...hid...and said to the mountains and rocks...hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne."-(Rev 6:14-17 KJV) 

This is the final judgment of men and angels. From the Sea, where the gate of Tartarus lay, rise the angelic "sons of God" who were seduced by the daughters of wicked men under the command of Satan's angels the Nephilim (Gen 6:1-7; 2 Pet 2:4; Jude 1:6). While these had not joined Satan's rebellion, they corrupted the image of God in man with angelic DNA, meriting eternal punishment albeit not as severe at what will be meted out to Satan and his angels. These are punished with eternal darkness and bonds, unlike Satan and his angels who will be driven uncontrollably into the Lake of Fire while imprisoned in swine flesh that communicates the undiluted wrath of our Holy God. Weeping and gnashing of teeth is indicative of intense physical pain like that of a burning fire or devouring worm. (Mark 5:9) They won't be tormenting anyone in Gehenna, they can't even move to lessen their torment.

Both good and bad rise up from Death and Hades, the Elect and the non-Elect:

31 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with the men of this generation, and condemn them: for she came from the utmost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
 32 The men of Nineve shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
 (Luk 11:31-32 KJV)

Those who obeyed Christ's voice in the grave (John 5:25-29; 1 Peter 3:18-19) or the gospel they heard when alive (1 Peter 4:6) and repent living "according to God in the spirit" while waiting for the resurrection in Hades, rise into life. They are saved in "the Day of the Lord Jesus" (1 Corinthians 5:5) because their names were written in the "Book of life of the Lamb" (Rev 13:8) before the founding of the world (Eph 1:3-5) but like the Pharisee (Luke 16:22ff)---an Elect or child of Abraham (Luke 16:24-25), had died without Christ and therefore had to pay for their sins in Hades (Luke 16:26; Acts 4:12) while they waited to be resurrected on Judgment Day.

ONLY those not written in the Lamb's book of life fail to repent in Hell, are raised up in contemptible bodies (Dan 12:1-3) and cast into the Lake of Fire, which symbolizes BOTH eternal separation from God (2 Thess 1:9) and a terrible place of torment as in a burning furnace of fire (Mat 13:41-42, 49-50), the contemptible bodies communicating this to the souls and spirits trapped with in them, so intensely they can only wail and gnash their teeth (Mark 9:43-48).


BECAUSE Gehenna, the Lake of Fire, is so terrible, Hades or Hell is proof of God's love, it guarantees all understand the consequences of remaining defiled by evil, and so unable to live in the presence of our Holy God.

Only the children of the Devil end up in Gehenna, Hell proved they belong there. Regardless how God tried to sway them, they refused to repent and so were cast into the lake of fire.


Not one of God's children, all He foreknew are His, failed to repent, either in this life (who  become kings and priests in Christ's millennial kingdom (Rev 20:6), or in Hades.

Had God not made sure those He foreknew wouldn't be lost (Rom 8:28-39), He would have mourned them for all eternity:'

For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. (1Jo 3:8 KJV)


So all Israel is saved, and all the Devil's children are lost:


 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
 33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
 34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
 35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
 36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen. (Rom 11:26-36 KJV)

"might have mercy on all the elect who died in disbelief", not "all mankind." Satan, his angels, and all his children, their part shall be in the lake which burns with fire an sulphur.


20 But the wicked are like the troubled sea, when it cannot rest, whose waters cast up mire and dirt.
 21 There is no peace, saith my God, to the wicked.
(Isa 57:20-21 KJV)



20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
 22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
(Rev 3:20-1 KJV)
« Last Edit: July 21, 2011, 02:10:16 AM by Alfred Persson » Logged

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)
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« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2011, 02:09:24 AM »

Quote
The only problem with Hell is Christians not knowing what they hell they are talking about

I'm guessing that you aren't including yourself in this blanket statement?  police
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« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2011, 05:52:35 AM »

Um....?  Huh
 
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« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2011, 08:37:07 AM »

The only problem with Hell is Christians not knowing what they hell they are talking about

Yes, I've tended to find them annoyingly ignorant on most things in this life and expect it to be the same in the next. At least, I'll have the occasional distraction of hellfire and brimstone to distract me this time around.
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« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2011, 06:08:48 PM »

Quote
The only problem with Hell is Christians not knowing what they hell they are talking about

I'm guessing that you aren't including yourself in this blanket statement?  police

That is a misreading, it doesn't say "all Christians"---no universal quantifier expressed or implied.

« Last Edit: July 21, 2011, 06:09:55 PM by Alfred Persson » Logged

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)
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« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2011, 06:12:59 PM »

The good use of quote boxes and clear thought flow would greatly increase the readability and thus the likelihood of me actually reading anything in this thread. Until then, I'll likely just laugh at Asteriktos' two cents.
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« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2011, 06:38:41 PM »

The good use of quote boxes and clear thought flow would greatly increase the readability and thus the likelihood of me actually reading anything in this thread. Until then, I'll likely just laugh at Asteriktos' two cents.

Asteriktos' comment is the most compelling and knowledgeable item from this entire thread, that's for sure.
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« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2011, 10:13:10 AM »

The resurrection body of the vile will be contemptible:

לַחֲרָפֹות לְדִרְאֹון עֹולָם forms the contrast to לְחַיֵּי עֹולָם; for first חֲרָפֹות, shame (a plur. of intensive fulness), is placed over against the חַיֵּי, then this shame is designated in reference to Isa. 66:24 as דְּרָאֹון, contempt, an object of aversion.-   Keil, C. F., & Delitzsch, F. (2002). Commentary on the Old Testament. (Da 12:2–3). Peabody, MA: Hendrickson.


2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
 3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. (Dan 12:2-3 KJV)

Compare:

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. (1Co 15:42-45 KJV)

In contrast to resurrected body of the Elect, physical bodies that are spiritual (σῶμα πνευματικόν), infused with the power of incorruption and radiate life gloriously, the abhorrent resurrection bodies of the wicked inspire reproach, are contemptible unclean forms infused with corruption, death and decay...the antithesis of the resurrected bodies of the righteous.

That is the meaning of "their worm shall not die," the process of corruption never ceases, and communicates pain to the soul trapped within:

And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. (Isa 66:24 KJV)


43 'And if thy hand may cause thee to stumble, cut it off; it is better for thee maimed to enter into the life, than having the two hands, to go away to the gehenna, to the fire -- the unquenchable --
 44 where their worm is not dying, and the fire is not being quenched.
 45 'And if thy foot may cause thee to stumble, cut it off; it is better for thee to enter into the life lame, than having the two feet to be cast to the gehenna, to the fire -- the unquenchable --
 46 where their worm is not dying, and the fire is not being quenched.
 47 And if thine eye may cause thee to stumble, cast it out; it is better for thee one-eyed to enter into the reign of God, than having two eyes, to be cast to the gehenna of the fire --
 48 where their worm is not dying, and the fire is not being quenched;
 (Mar 9:43-48 YLT)


What is done now influences what these bodies will be:
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
 (1Co 15:37-38 KJV)


8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. (Gal 6:8 KJV)

As the contrast is reaping corruption as opposed to life everlasting, the reaping occurs during the resurrection and is not a fleshly harvest in this life.


The resurrection bodies that will imprison the non-elect angels (cp 1 Tim 5:21) and humans (Rev 20:15) will be like unclean flesh which will communicate the undiluted wrath of an offended Holy God:

11 Now there was there nigh unto the mountains a great herd of swine feeding.
 12 And all the devils besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them.
 13 And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand;) and were choked in the sea. (Mar 5:11-13 KJV)

The physical forms which once communicated sinful pleasure to the spirits and souls within them, now communicate intense physical torment in recompense, returning them to the service of our Holy God and so restoring the balance in their creation.



« Last Edit: July 22, 2011, 10:13:45 AM by Alfred Persson » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2011, 11:15:16 AM »

Hey guys, our Protestant is back!
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« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2011, 11:21:17 AM »

Hey guys, our Protestant is back!

Hating quote boxes and easily read formatting.
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« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2011, 01:03:46 PM »

Hey guys, our Protestant is back!
He came back a few weeks ago and never really left since then.
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« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2011, 01:18:18 PM »

So, instead of arguing for Calvanist 'double predestination,' you are arguing for Perssonist 'double election'?

The only problem with Hell is Christians not knowing what they hell they are talking about

Elect not saved in this life, rise from Hell to be saved in the Day of the LORD Jesus, Judgment Day. Only the Children of the Devil are lost.
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« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2011, 02:24:55 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


BECAUSE Gehenna, the Lake of Fire, is so terrible, Hades or Hell is proof of God's love, it guarantees all understand the consequences of remaining defiled by evil, and so unable to live in the presence of our Holy God.

Only the children of the Devil end up in Gehenna, Hell proved they belong there. Regardless how God tried to sway them, they refused to repent and so were cast into the lake of fire.



I agree with the sentiments of the OP in regards to American Protestantism, there are several misconceptions of "death" and "hell" there, however, within Orthodox the fathers have actually been quite elaborate.  In regards to the quote above, I sincerely hope and pray with all my being that it stands true in the End, and that in His Mercy God can bring us ALL into repentance, but all I can worry about it my own soul at this point along the Way.

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« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2011, 02:33:01 PM »

*sigh*
Yet another reason I left Protestantism....psudeo-intellectual nonsense.

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« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2011, 03:11:28 PM »

The only problem with Hell is Christians not knowing what they hell they are talking about

Elect not saved in this life, rise from Hell to be saved in the Day of the LORD Jesus, Judgment Day. Only the Children of the Devil are lost.

Hell is God doing what murmurers always claimed God should do, make it completely clear what the consequences are.

Hell is God going the extra mile, trying to save all.

(Rev 20:11-15 KJV)

(Rev 6:14-17 KJV) 

This is the final judgment of men and angels. From the Sea, where the gate of Tartarus lay, rise the angelic "sons of God" who were seduced by the daughters of wicked men under the command of Satan's angels the Nephilim (Gen 6:1-7; 2 Pet 2:4; Jude 1:6). While these had not joined Satan's rebellion, they corrupted the image of God in man with angelic DNA, meriting eternal punishment albeit not as severe at what will be meted out to Satan and his angels. These are punished with eternal darkness and bonds, unlike Satan and his angels who will be driven uncontrollably into the Lake of Fire while imprisoned in swine flesh that communicates the undiluted wrath of our Holy God. Weeping and gnashing of teeth is indicative of intense physical pain like that of a burning fire or devouring worm. (Mark 5:9) They won't be tormenting anyone in Gehenna, they can't even move to lessen their torment.

Both good and bad rise up from Death and Hades, the Elect and the non-Elect:

(Luk 11:31-32 KJV)

Those who obeyed Christ's voice in the grave (John 5:25-29; 1 Peter 3:18-19) or the gospel they heard when alive (1 Peter 4:6) and repent living "according to God in the spirit" while waiting for the resurrection in Hades, rise into life. They are saved in "the Day of the Lord Jesus" (1 Corinthians 5:5) because their names were written in the "Book of life of the Lamb" (Rev 13:Cool before the founding of the world (Eph 1:3-5) but like the Pharisee (Luke 16:22ff)---an Elect or child of Abraham (Luke 16:24-25), had died without Christ and therefore had to pay for their sins in Hades (Luke 16:26; Acts 4:12) while they waited to be resurrected on Judgment Day.

ONLY those not written in the Lamb's book of life fail to repent in Hell, are raised up in contemptible bodies (Dan 12:1-3) and cast into the Lake of Fire, which symbolizes BOTH eternal separation from God (2 Thess 1:9) and a terrible place of torment as in a burning furnace of fire (Mat 13:41-42, 49-50), the contemptible bodies communicating this to the souls and spirits trapped with in them, so intensely they can only wail and gnash their teeth (Mark 9:43-48).


BECAUSE Gehenna, the Lake of Fire, is so terrible, Hades or Hell is proof of God's love, it guarantees all understand the consequences of remaining defiled by evil, and so unable to live in the presence of our Holy God.

Only the children of the Devil end up in Gehenna, Hell proved they belong there. Regardless how God tried to sway them, they refused to repent and so were cast into the lake of fire.

Not one of God's children, all He foreknew are His, failed to repent, either in this life (who  become kings and priests in Christ's millennial kingdom (Rev 20:6), or in Hades.

Had God not made sure those He foreknew wouldn't be lost (Rom 8:28-39), He would have mourned them for all eternity:'

(1Jo 3:8 KJV)


So all Israel is saved, and all the Devil's children are lost:


(Rom 11:26-36 KJV)

"might have mercy on all the elect who died in disbelief", not "all mankind." Satan, his angels, and all his children, their part shall be in the lake which burns with fire an sulphur.


(Isa 57:20-21 KJV)

(Rev 3:20-1 KJV)


This is the post cleaned up a little bit. For clarification, it is my understanding (please correct me if I'm wrong Alfred, that

The hades spoken of here tales place during the thousand year reign of Christ. The "elect" who came to believe in this life are living in Christ's  millenial kingdom, while everyone else (the elect who did not come to belief in this life, and the non elect) is in hades awaiting to be raised up for the final judgement where all the elect will enter into Christ's eternal kingdom while the non-elect are sent into gehenna.

I'm not going to say anything more right now other than this event takes place during a time frame (millenial reign) that the Orthodox do not even believe to exist. A handful of saints have in the past, but they are a very small minority. With that said, maybe I might find more to say later on.
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« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2011, 03:15:45 PM »

I've always thought of the 1,000 year reign as the Byzantine Empire.

<snip>
I'm not going to say anything more right now other than this event takes place during a time frame (millenial reign) that the Orthodox do not even believe to exist. A handful of saints have in the past, but they are a very small minority. With that said, maybe I might find more to say later on.
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« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2011, 04:28:52 PM »

The only problem with Hell is Christians not knowing what they hell they are talking about

Elect not saved in this life, rise from Hell to be saved in the Day of the LORD Jesus, Judgment Day. Only the Children of the Devil are lost.

Hell is God doing what murmurers always claimed God should do, make it completely clear what the consequences are.

Hell is God going the extra mile, trying to save all.

(Rev 20:11-15 KJV)

(Rev 6:14-17 KJV)  

This is the final judgment of men and angels. From the Sea, where the gate of Tartarus lay, rise the angelic "sons of God" who were seduced by the daughters of wicked men under the command of Satan's angels the Nephilim (Gen 6:1-7; 2 Pet 2:4; Jude 1:6). While these had not joined Satan's rebellion, they corrupted the image of God in man with angelic DNA, meriting eternal punishment albeit not as severe at what will be meted out to Satan and his angels. These are punished with eternal darkness and bonds, unlike Satan and his angels who will be driven uncontrollably into the Lake of Fire while imprisoned in swine flesh that communicates the undiluted wrath of our Holy God. Weeping and gnashing of teeth is indicative of intense physical pain like that of a burning fire or devouring worm. (Mark 5:9) They won't be tormenting anyone in Gehenna, they can't even move to lessen their torment.

Both good and bad rise up from Death and Hades, the Elect and the non-Elect:

(Luk 11:31-32 KJV)

Those who obeyed Christ's voice in the grave (John 5:25-29; 1 Peter 3:18-19) or the gospel they heard when alive (1 Peter 4:6) and repent living "according to God in the spirit" while waiting for the resurrection in Hades, rise into life. They are saved in "the Day of the Lord Jesus" (1 Corinthians 5:5) because their names were written in the "Book of life of the Lamb" (Rev 13:Cool before the founding of the world (Eph 1:3-5) but like the Pharisee (Luke 16:22ff)---an Elect or child of Abraham (Luke 16:24-25), had died without Christ and therefore had to pay for their sins in Hades (Luke 16:26; Acts 4:12) while they waited to be resurrected on Judgment Day.

ONLY those not written in the Lamb's book of life fail to repent in Hell, are raised up in contemptible bodies (Dan 12:1-3) and cast into the Lake of Fire, which symbolizes BOTH eternal separation from God (2 Thess 1:9) and a terrible place of torment as in a burning furnace of fire (Mat 13:41-42, 49-50), the contemptible bodies communicating this to the souls and spirits trapped with in them, so intensely they can only wail and gnash their teeth (Mark 9:43-48).


BECAUSE Gehenna, the Lake of Fire, is so terrible, Hades or Hell is proof of God's love, it guarantees all understand the consequences of remaining defiled by evil, and so unable to live in the presence of our Holy God.

Only the children of the Devil end up in Gehenna, Hell proved they belong there. Regardless how God tried to sway them, they refused to repent and so were cast into the lake of fire.

Not one of God's children, all He foreknew are His, failed to repent, either in this life (who  become kings and priests in Christ's millennial kingdom (Rev 20:6), or in Hades.

Had God not made sure those He foreknew wouldn't be lost (Rom 8:28-39), He would have mourned them for all eternity:'

(1Jo 3:8 KJV)


So all Israel is saved, and all the Devil's children are lost:


(Rom 11:26-36 KJV)

"might have mercy on all the elect who died in disbelief", not "all mankind." Satan, his angels, and all his children, their part shall be in the lake which burns with fire an sulphur.


(Isa 57:20-21 KJV)

(Rev 3:20-1 KJV)


This is the post cleaned up a little bit. For clarification, it is my understanding (please correct me if I'm wrong Alfred, that

The hades spoken of here tales place during the thousand year reign of Christ. The "elect" who came to believe in this life are living in Christ's  millenial kingdom, while everyone else (the elect who did not come to belief in this life, and the non elect) is in hades awaiting to be raised up for the final judgement where all the elect will enter into Christ's eternal kingdom while the non-elect are sent into gehenna.

I'm not going to say anything more right now other than this event takes place during a time frame (millenial reign) that the Orthodox do not even believe to exist. A handful of saints have in the past, but they are a very small minority. With that said, maybe I might find more to say later on.

That's incorrect, the Hades I spoke of is the same one Christ spoke of, that the rich man entered when angels failed to gather him to his people:

"And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. (Luk 16:23 NKJ)

Its the same Hades David prayed to be delivered from:

because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell (Hades), neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. (Psa 16:10 LXE)


Some Orthodox (including myself) call this the "intermediate state" where souls wait for the Resurrection of the body.

Its the same Hades Christ descended into after crucifixion.

This Hades doesn't vanish when Christ appears to set up His Kingdom, and begins judging the billions of people still alive after the plagues, antichrist etc.

You don't believe in the 1000 year reign of Christ...why not forget that for now, its not material to understanding everything else I said on this....its only confusing you...so for now, just forget about the prophesied 1000 year reign of Christ, for argument's sake, lets forget about OT and NT scripture and believe men this teaching of scripture, isn't correct or is being misunderstood:

NKJ Revelation 20:2  He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;
NKJ Revelation 20:3  and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.
NKJ Revelation 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
NKJ Revelation 20:5  But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
NKJ Revelation 20:6  Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
NKJ Revelation 20:7  Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison

 

You still have all in Hades being resurrected to appear before the Judgment seat of Christ.

You still have Hades being cast into the second death, to indicate it will never return...


You still have ONLY those not written in the book of life, cast into the lake of fire

 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:13-1 NKJ)

What about that is unclear?

It all seems quite straightfoward to me.





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« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2011, 04:50:52 PM »

Some Orthodox (including myself) call this the "intermediate state" where souls wait for the Resurrection of the body.
You're not Orthodox, neither are you even all that orthodox, so please don't include yourself among us.
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« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2011, 04:58:46 PM »

That's incorrect, the Hades I spoke of is the same one Christ spoke of, that the rich man entered when angels failed to gather him to his people:

"And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. (Luk 16:23 NKJ)

Its the same Hades David prayed to be delivered from:

because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell (Hades), neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. (Psa 16:10 LXE)

Some Orthodox (including myself)

Please don't spell that with a capital "O" when referring to yourself. You are not in communion with the Orthodox Church and under the authority of an Orthodox bishop.

Quote
call this the "intermediate state" where souls wait for the Resurrection of the body.

Its the same Hades Christ descended into after crucifixion.

This Hades doesn't vanish when Christ appears to set up His Kingdom, and begins judging the billions of people still alive after the plagues, antichrist etc.

You don't believe in the 1000 year reign of Christ...why not forget that for now, its not material to understanding everything else I said on this....its only confusing you...so for now, just forget about the prophesied 1000 year reign of Christ, for argument's sake, lets forget about OT and NT scripture and believe men this teaching of scripture, isn't correct or is being misunderstood:

NKJ Revelation 20:2  He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;
NKJ Revelation 20:3  and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.
NKJ Revelation 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
NKJ Revelation 20:5  But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
NKJ Revelation 20:6  Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
NKJ Revelation 20:7  Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison

 
You still have Hades being cast into the second death, to indicate it will never return...

You still have all in Hades being resurrected to appear before the Judgment seat of Christ.

What about that is unclear?

Forgetting the thousand year reign, you might be closer than you appear, but not quite there.

If you take into account that our God is a consuming fire, Rev 14:10, and accept that Christ's presence purifies those who love God and torments those who are entirely opposed to Him, then you might be even closer.

As far as the rich man, as I pointed out earlier, the point of that story isn't he's going to heaven because he's elect, but not to focus on oneself and deny loving the image of God in others, which brings condemnation because it is a refusal to recognize and love God's image. Also, in the sheep and the goats, it is the one's who refused to feed the needy that Christ says rejected Him. Your canonizing of the rich man (who has no name because God does not know him, while Lazarus has a name because God remembers him) seems out of context with what Jesus taught in these two parables, alongside of the admonition of John the Baptist in Luke 3:8.
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« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2011, 04:59:52 PM »

Some Orthodox (including myself) call this the "intermediate state" where souls wait for the Resurrection of the body.
You're not Orthodox, neither are you even all that orthodox, so please don't include yourself among us.

I certainly am Orthodox, primitive Orthodox, "RIGHT THINKING."

That I don't fit your definition is irrelevant to me.

You have already labeled me "perssonism", I would think that should suffice for you gents.

Don't expect me to define myself incorrectly as you do.

That isn't fair.
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« Reply #20 on: July 22, 2011, 05:03:31 PM »

Some Orthodox (including myself) call this the "intermediate state" where souls wait for the Resurrection of the body.
You're not Orthodox, neither are you even all that orthodox, so please don't include yourself among us.

I certainly am Orthodox, primitive Orthodox, "RIGHT THINKING."

That I don't fit your definition is irrelevant to me.

You have already labeled me "perssonism", I would think that should suffice for you gents.

Don't expect me to define myself incorrectly as you do.

That isn't fair.

Perhaps "Non-Denominational Sola Scriptura Protestant" might be a more accurate and more charitable way to refer to your personal beliefs.
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« Reply #21 on: July 22, 2011, 05:06:48 PM »

I certainly am Orthodox, primitive Orthodox, "RIGHT THINKING."

Prove it. Historical evidence.
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« Reply #22 on: July 22, 2011, 08:18:34 PM »

Orthodox does not mean 'right thinking.'  The root is from the Greek 'right worshipping.'

To confuse worship with thinking is 'unorthodox.'  Unless you properly and truly glorify God, then you are heterodox.


<snip>
I certainly am Orthodox, primitive Orthodox, "RIGHT THINKING."

That I don't fit your definition is irrelevant to me.

You have already labeled me "perssonism", I would think that should suffice for you gents.

Don't expect me to define myself incorrectly as you do.

That isn't fair.
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« Reply #23 on: July 22, 2011, 08:26:27 PM »

Some Orthodox (including myself) call this the "intermediate state" where souls wait for the Resurrection of the body.
You're not Orthodox, neither are you even all that orthodox, so please don't include yourself among us.

I certainly am Orthodox, primitive Orthodox, "RIGHT THINKING."
In your own mind you are.
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« Reply #24 on: July 22, 2011, 10:16:02 PM »

Some Orthodox (including myself) call this the "intermediate state" where souls wait for the Resurrection of the body.
You're not Orthodox, neither are you even all that orthodox, so please don't include yourself among us.

I certainly am Orthodox, primitive Orthodox, "RIGHT THINKING."
In your own mind you are.

That's all that matters, in reality:

 47 "And that servant who knew his master's will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
 48 "But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more. (Luk 12:47-48 NKJ)

Its my conscience that excuses or accuses me, before God, not yours:

 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)
 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
 (Rom 2:15-16 NKJ)

The books that will be opened in the day of judgment, list more than deeds, they list the motives inspiring the deed, His punishment will fit the crime perfectly.

Or one can repent and publicly confess Jesus is LORD now, in this life, and be forgiven...which is far better.

 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
 11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."
 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.
 13 For "whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved."
(Rom 10:9-13 NKJ)

I recall doing this in front of my sailor buddies, begging Jesus save me a sinner:

 13 "And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying,`God, be merciful to me a sinner!'
 14 "I tell you, this man went down to his house justified (Luk 18:13-14 NKJ)

I did that and haven't looked back at my old life, these 30+ years...Thank you LORD Jesus!

 16 Then Thomas, who is called the Twin, said to his fellow disciples, "Let us also go, that we may die with Him." (Joh 11:16 NKJ)

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« Reply #25 on: July 22, 2011, 10:24:17 PM »

13 "And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying,`God, be merciful to me a sinner!'
14 "I tell you, this man went down to his house justified (Luk 18:13-14 NKJ)

I did that and haven't looked back at my old life, these 30+ years...Thank you LORD Jesus!

 16 Then Thomas, who is called the Twin, said to his fellow disciples, "Let us also go, that we may die with Him." (Joh 11:16 NKJ)

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have Mercy on me, a sinner. Of whom, I am the greatest.
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« Reply #26 on: July 22, 2011, 10:32:43 PM »

That's incorrect, the Hades I spoke of is the same one Christ spoke of, that the rich man entered when angels failed to gather him to his people:

"And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. (Luk 16:23 NKJ)

Its the same Hades David prayed to be delivered from:

because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell (Hades), neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. (Psa 16:10 LXE)

Some Orthodox (including myself)

Please don't spell that with a capital "O" when referring to yourself. You are not in communion with the Orthodox Church and under the authority of an Orthodox bishop.

Quote
call this the "intermediate state" where souls wait for the Resurrection of the body.

Its the same Hades Christ descended into after crucifixion.

This Hades doesn't vanish when Christ appears to set up His Kingdom, and begins judging the billions of people still alive after the plagues, antichrist etc.

You don't believe in the 1000 year reign of Christ...why not forget that for now, its not material to understanding everything else I said on this....its only confusing you...so for now, just forget about the prophesied 1000 year reign of Christ, for argument's sake, lets forget about OT and NT scripture and believe men this teaching of scripture, isn't correct or is being misunderstood:

NKJ Revelation 20:2  He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;
NKJ Revelation 20:3  and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.
NKJ Revelation 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
NKJ Revelation 20:5  But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
NKJ Revelation 20:6  Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
NKJ Revelation 20:7  Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison

 
You still have Hades being cast into the second death, to indicate it will never return...

You still have all in Hades being resurrected to appear before the Judgment seat of Christ.

What about that is unclear?

Forgetting the thousand year reign, you might be closer than you appear, but not quite there.

If you take into account that our God is a consuming fire, Rev 14:10, and accept that Christ's presence purifies those who love God and torments those who are entirely opposed to Him, then you might be even closer.

As far as the rich man, as I pointed out earlier, the point of that story isn't he's going to heaven because he's elect, but not to focus on oneself and deny loving the image of God in others, which brings condemnation because it is a refusal to recognize and love God's image. Also, in the sheep and the goats, it is the one's who refused to feed the needy that Christ says rejected Him. Your canonizing of the rich man (who has no name because God does not know him, while Lazarus has a name because God remembers him) seems out of context with what Jesus taught in these two parables, alongside of the admonition of John the Baptist in Luke 3:8.

You misunderstood, I will never forget scripture truth...For argument's sake, as it appeared Christ's millennial kingdom was confusing our discussion of Hades, I said, forget it for now, its not material to the concept of hell.

But its obviously true, absolutely necessary. When Christ returns, billions of people will have survived the Antichrist and wars and plagues.

But its not right they enter the kingdom, they didn't believe in Christ when salvation was offered...they didn't show "faith" and salvation is through faith:

 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, (Eph 2:8 NKJ)

Only after Christ appears...do they believe. Their belief is not "faith," its acknowledgement of reality, so they cannot be saved by faith as we were.

So they fall under a different dispensation...analogous to the OT dispensation, where they are judged by their works, their obedience to the Laws of God. Hence the prophet Ezekiel prophesied the new Temple in Christ's kingdom.


For a thousand years these survivors are tested, those who fail the test, die and go to Hades just as sinners do now. But they weren't written in the Lamb's book of life because they are called "ACCURSED":

Never again will one of her infants live just a few days or an old man die before his time. Indeed, no one will die before the age of a hundred, anyone who fails to reach the age of a hundred will be considered cursed. (Isa 65:20 NET)

ONLY those not written in the Lamb's book of life will fail this test.

THAT is confirmed by this analogy, only the non elect followed the Antichrist:

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. (Rev 13:8 KJV)

Hence only the non elect will rebel against God at the end of the thousand years, and follow Satan:

7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison
 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea.
 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.
 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
 (Rev 20:7-10 NKJ)


These things are quite plain in scripture, its a wonder anyone doubt them.

This is why primitive Orthodoxy is far superior to all present forms of religion, I see my religion, my doctrine, in every verse of scripture, plainly stated.

The scripture is unveiled to me, nothing hidden, nothing obscure, whenever I have a question, God makes sure I find the answer in scripture. He has never let me down. BUT He guides via diligent study of the text, the sword of the Spirit is what cuts away darkness...no study...then no answer.



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« Reply #27 on: July 22, 2011, 10:38:09 PM »

Er, not exactly...

Proverbs 21:2 - Every way of a man is right in his own eyes, but the LORD pondereth the hearts.

Psalm 81:12 - So I gave them up unto their own hearts' lust, and they walked in their own counsels.

Numbers 16:28 - And Moses said, "Hereby ye shall know that the LORD hath sent me to do all these works, for I have not done them of mine own mind."

Numbers 15:39 - And it shall be unto you for a fringe, that ye may look upon it and remember all the commandments of the LORD and do them, and that ye seek not after your own heart and your own eyes, after which ye use to go a whoring,




<snip>
That's all that matters, in reality:

<snip>
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« Reply #28 on: July 22, 2011, 10:40:15 PM »

This is why primitive Orthodoxy is far superior to all present forms of religion, I see my religion, my doctrine, in every verse of scripture, plainly stated.

Prove you're practicing 'primitive' Orthodoxy.

The scripture is unveiled to me, nothing hidden, nothing obscure, whenever I have a question, God makes sure I find the answer in scripture. He has never let me down.

You're your own prophet?
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« Reply #29 on: July 22, 2011, 10:47:10 PM »

This is why primitive Orthodoxy is far superior to all present forms of religion, I see my religion, my doctrine, in every verse of scripture, plainly stated.

Prove you're practicing 'primitive' Orthodoxy.

The scripture is unveiled to me, nothing hidden, nothing obscure, whenever I have a question, God makes sure I find the answer in scripture. He has never let me down.

You're your own prophet?

 Every Bible exposition is the word of God forthtelling, every Bible believing Christian reading scripture, is prophesying, didn't you know that?

29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge.
 30 But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent.
 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged.
 32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
 33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.
 (1Co 14:29-33 NKJ)

For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." (Rev 19:10 NKJ)

No man of God is ever accepted:

 31 And the Lord said, "To what then shall I liken the men of this generation, and what are they like?
 32 "They are like children sitting in the marketplace and calling to one another, saying:`We played the flute for you, And you did not dance; We mourned to you, And you did not weep.'
 33 "For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say,`He has a demon.'
 34 "The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say,`Look, a glutton and a winebibber, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!'
 35 "But wisdom is justified by all her children." (Luk 7:31-35 NKJ)
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« Reply #30 on: July 22, 2011, 10:53:46 PM »

This is why primitive Orthodoxy is far superior to all present forms of religion, I see my religion, my doctrine, in every verse of scripture, plainly stated.

Prove you're practicing 'primitive' Orthodoxy.

The scripture is unveiled to me, nothing hidden, nothing obscure, whenever I have a question, God makes sure I find the answer in scripture. He has never let me down.

You're your own prophet?

 Every Bible exposition is the word of God forthtelling, every Bible believing Christian reading scripture, is prophesying, didn't you know that?

29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge.
 30 But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent.
 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged.
 32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
 33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.
 (1Co 14:29-33 NKJ)

For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." (Rev 19:10 NKJ)

No man of God is ever accepted:

 31 And the Lord said, "To what then shall I liken the men of this generation, and what are they like?
 32 "They are like children sitting in the marketplace and calling to one another, saying:`We played the flute for you, And you did not dance; We mourned to you, And you did not weep.'
 33 "For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say,`He has a demon.'
 34 "The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say,`Look, a glutton and a winebibber, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!'
 35 "But wisdom is justified by all her children." (Luk 7:31-35 NKJ)


The quote piece doesn't express or prove that all testimony of Jesus is prophesy, but, instead, the testimony of Jesus (as passed down) is from the same Spirit of prophesy (which was fulfilled from the Old Testament).

The second quote you use to support your position? A 'man of God' may not always be accepted, but that doesn't equal non-acceptance equaling 'man of God'.
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« Reply #31 on: July 22, 2011, 11:16:58 PM »

So, you are on the par of Jesus Christ and St. John the Baptist?

<snip>

No man of God is ever accepted:

 31 And the Lord said, "To what then shall I liken the men of this generation, and what are they like?
 32 "They are like children sitting in the marketplace and calling to one another, saying:`We played the flute for you, And you did not dance; We mourned to you, And you did not weep.'
 33 "For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say,`He has a demon.'
 34 "The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say,`Look, a glutton and a winebibber, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!'
 35 "But wisdom is justified by all her children." (Luk 7:31-35 NKJ)

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« Reply #32 on: July 23, 2011, 01:24:42 AM »

Yes, protestants view themselves as their own elders. They may not have a hierarchy in the same sense as the Orthodox but they view themselves as the judges of other men's souls. My girlfriend's sister was married to a pastor's son who was extremely jealous of other men showing attention to his wife. He suffocated her with his "male leadership" and his is demand she submit to his will. When she could no longer stand the oppression of his intolerable behavior she divorced him. The reaction of the so-called elders of this non-denominational, one-off, stand-alone church was to send her a letter stating that the kindest thing they could say about her was she was no longer a believer. As if they had any authority to separate her from God. In essence, this supposed "church" without a hierarchy excommunicated her from the community.

It is quite ironic that protestants give us a lot of flack about the fact we call our priests, "father" and yet our priests are much more merciful and view themselves more as doctors versus judges of our souls. We are sick and they are there to help us heal, not to throw us out of the church because of a perceived or even actual failure for missing the mark.
Quite telling. I never would have realized this difference growing up in the Orthodox Church, but my evangelical friend really brought it home for me with her description of these renegade, rootless churches that lack tradition and any form of true authority.
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« Reply #33 on: July 23, 2011, 01:46:48 AM »

This is why primitive Orthodoxy is far superior to all present forms of religion, I see my religion, my doctrine, in every verse of scripture, plainly stated.

Prove you're practicing 'primitive' Orthodoxy.

The scripture is unveiled to me, nothing hidden, nothing obscure, whenever I have a question, God makes sure I find the answer in scripture. He has never let me down.

You're your own prophet?

 Every Bible exposition is the word of God forthtelling, every Bible believing Christian reading scripture, is prophesying, didn't you know that?

29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge.
 30 But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent.
 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged.
 32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
 33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.
 (1Co 14:29-33 NKJ)

For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." (Rev 19:10 NKJ)

No man of God is ever accepted:

 31 And the Lord said, "To what then shall I liken the men of this generation, and what are they like?
 32 "They are like children sitting in the marketplace and calling to one another, saying:`We played the flute for you, And you did not dance; We mourned to you, And you did not weep.'
 33 "For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say,`He has a demon.'
 34 "The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say,`Look, a glutton and a winebibber, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!'
 35 "But wisdom is justified by all her children." (Luk 7:31-35 NKJ)


The quote piece doesn't express or prove that all testimony of Jesus is prophesy, but, instead, the testimony of Jesus (as passed down) is from the same Spirit of prophesy (which was fulfilled from the Old Testament).

The second quote you use to support your position? A 'man of God' may not always be accepted, but that doesn't equal non-acceptance equaling 'man of God'.

Yes it does---its genitive μαρτυρία τοῦ Ἰησοῦ  "testimony of_the of_Jesus", testimony of Jesus Christ is the Spirit of prophecy, the aim or goal of all prophecy is to reveal God the Eternal Son, particularly in this context, His hatred for all rebellion and idolatry:

And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." (Rev 19:10 NKJ)

The angel is just another servant of God revealing Jesus, prophesying by revealing Christ...

Hence in the Corinthian church, exposition of scripture, or a psalm, about Christ = prophecy:

26 How is it then, brethren? Whenever you come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.
 27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret.
 28 But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in church, and let him speak to himself and to God.
 29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge.
 30 But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent.
 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged.
 32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. (1Co 14:26-32 NKJ)

Contrary to Pentecostal eisegesis, those who spoke tongues were a minority in Corinth, the majority of this epistle addresses non Pentecostal issue. That is confirmed by Paul's warning " do not forbid to speak with tongues. (1Co 14:39 NKJ). A minority could never impose its will on the majority. A study of tongues shows it was never big in the church, at the time of Pentecost, its maxium manifestation, only a few of the thousands saved that day actually spoke in tongues (Acts 2:41-47) and tongues is hardly mentioned in the later books of the NT. It would appear they ceased sometime around the Temple's destruction (Heb 2:3) and are spoken of in the past tense. This is consistent with their being a sign to the Jews attending the Temple that God was no longer speaking to the people, through Judaism...now it was Christianity that is the Way (1 Cor 14:21-22).

Therefore "prophecy" here in Corinth is the same as smaller Bible believing churches do today, read psalms and individual members give their testimony of what God revealed to them through the text. It can be wrong without the "prophet" being a "false prophet":

29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge.
 30 But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent.
 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged.
 32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
 (1Co 14:29-32 NKJ)

So the more mature believers who know their Bible are the "prophets who judge" the correctness of the exposition of these who believe God has revealed something to them ABOUT CHRIST.

Everything the early church did, was about Christ, they ate, drank, walked, in Jesus, when they lay down, when they got up, when they were about in the way. Every word that came out of Jesus' mouth, was like a frontlet before their eyes.

Forthtelling the Word of God is prophecy, for it reveals Jesus, and especially His abhorrence for all forms of idolatry. That is what the angel was saying...look to Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, and how He obeyed the Father, even to death on the cross, never once bending knee to anyone but God His Father.


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« Reply #34 on: July 23, 2011, 02:20:57 AM »

Yes, protestants view themselves as their own elders. They may not have a hierarchy in the same sense as the Orthodox but they view themselves as the judges of other men's souls. My girlfriend's sister was married to a pastor's son who was extremely jealous of other men showing attention to his wife. He suffocated her with his "male leadership" and his is demand she submit to his will. When she could no longer stand the oppression of his intolerable behavior she divorced him. The reaction of the so-called elders of this non-denominational, one-off, stand-alone church was to send her a letter stating that the kindest thing they could say about her was she was no longer a believer. As if they had any authority to separate her from God. In essence, this supposed "church" without a hierarchy excommunicated her from the community.

It is quite ironic that protestants give us a lot of flack about the fact we call our priests, "father" and yet our priests are much more merciful and view themselves more as doctors versus judges of our souls. We are sick and they are there to help us heal, not to throw us out of the church because of a perceived or even actual failure for missing the mark.
Quite telling. I never would have realized this difference growing up in the Orthodox Church, but my evangelical friend really brought it home for me with her description of these renegade, rootless churches that lack tradition and any form of true authority.

Stereotyping Protetants is impossible, the classification has become meaningless. Both Catholics and Orthodox label as "Protestant" everything that is neither Catholic or Orthodox, regardless how different or non Christian these churches are.

Its easy to slander God's way of doing things, He prefers working with individuals, not groups, and that appears too chaotic for many:

 6 But the thing displeased Samuel when they said, "Give us a king to judge us." So Samuel prayed to the LORD.
 7 And the LORD said to Samuel, "Heed the voice of the people in all that they say to you; for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me, that I should not reign over them. (1Sa 8:6-7 NKJ)

Many cannot tolerate the chaos that existed within apostolically set limits in primitive Christian churches:

 23 Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those who are uninformed or unbelievers, will they not say that you are out of your mind?
 24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an uninformed person comes in, he is convinced by all, he is convicted by all.
 25 And thus the secrets of his heart are revealed; and so, falling down on his face, he will worship God and report that God is truly among you.
 26 How is it then, brethren? Whenever you come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.
 27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret.
 28 But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in church, and let him speak to himself and to God.
 29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge.
 30 But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent.
 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged.
 32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
 33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints. (1Co 14:23-33 NKJ)

All behaving in this manner today are called cultists or worse.

But God never wanted men to live in tyranny or a dictatorship.

I have met Christians in big organized churches, and in small wandering nomadic Jesus freak groups. They are all children of God, He loves them all and He will set all things right in His time. But the desire to snuff out what doesn't suit the ungodly desire all do the same things at the same times, will not be well received in the day of the Lord Jesus.

God certainly didn't like it when the Israelites discarded His "chaos" for a dictatorship, and He changes not.

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« Reply #35 on: July 23, 2011, 02:31:12 AM »

Alfred,

White space is your friend.

As are focused and short posts.

Once you get those two down, we'll work on having a point to make.
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« Reply #36 on: July 23, 2011, 09:06:03 AM »

But its obviously true, absolutely necessary. When Christ returns, billions of people will have survived the Antichrist and wars and plagues.

But its not right they enter the kingdom, they didn't believe in Christ when salvation was offered...they didn't show "faith" and salvation is through faith:

 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, (Eph 2:8 NKJ)

Only after Christ appears...do they believe. Their belief is not "faith," its acknowledgement of reality, so they cannot be saved by faith as we were.

So they fall under a different dispensation...analogous to the OT dispensation, where they are judged by their works, their obedience to the Laws of God. Hence the prophet Ezekiel prophesied the new Temple in Christ's kingdom.

Are you saying that the "salvation through faith" in ephesians refers only to the millenial kingdom and not the eternal kingdom?

Are you also saying that the OT saints are not justified by faith?

Are you implying that there was anyone under the mosaic law before Jesus Christ who kept the law perfectly?
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« Reply #37 on: July 23, 2011, 11:12:04 AM »

This is not true.  God 'worked' with Israel.  God 'worked' with the Apostles.  The Body of Christ is the Church, which is more than one person.

The Scriptures are made up primarily of God 'working' with groups of people.  Even when He 'works' with an individual, it still ends up being about the group, because salvation is offered to all men.


Its easy to slander God's way of doing things, He prefers working with individuals, not groups, and that appears too chaotic for many:
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« Reply #38 on: July 23, 2011, 04:02:17 PM »

But its obviously true, absolutely necessary. When Christ returns, billions of people will have survived the Antichrist and wars and plagues.

But its not right they enter the kingdom, they didn't believe in Christ when salvation was offered...they didn't show "faith" and salvation is through faith:

 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, (Eph 2:8 NKJ)

Only after Christ appears...do they believe. Their belief is not "faith," its acknowledgement of reality, so they cannot be saved by faith as we were.

So they fall under a different dispensation...analogous to the OT dispensation, where they are judged by their works, their obedience to the Laws of God. Hence the prophet Ezekiel prophesied the new Temple in Christ's kingdom.

Are you saying that the "salvation through faith" in ephesians refers only to the millenial kingdom and not the eternal kingdom?

Are you also saying that the OT saints are not justified by faith?

Are you implying that there was anyone under the mosaic law before Jesus Christ who kept the law perfectly?

I'm starting to wonder if you ask questions only to ask questions.
Quote the words where I said salvation through faith refers only to the millenial kingdom, or implies that.
Qutoe the words where I said or implied OT saints were not justified by faith.
Quote the words where I said or implied anyone under Mosaic law kept it perfectly.

Then I'll answer you.
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« Reply #39 on: July 23, 2011, 04:04:58 PM »

But its obviously true, absolutely necessary. When Christ returns, billions of people will have survived the Antichrist and wars and plagues.

But its not right they enter the kingdom, they didn't believe in Christ when salvation was offered...they didn't show "faith" and salvation is through faith:

 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, (Eph 2:8 NKJ)

Only after Christ appears...do they believe. Their belief is not "faith," its acknowledgement of reality, so they cannot be saved by faith as we were.

So they fall under a different dispensation...analogous to the OT dispensation, where they are judged by their works, their obedience to the Laws of God. Hence the prophet Ezekiel prophesied the new Temple in Christ's kingdom.

Are you saying that the "salvation through faith" in ephesians refers only to the millenial kingdom and not the eternal kingdom?

Are you also saying that the OT saints are not justified by faith?

Are you implying that there was anyone under the mosaic law before Jesus Christ who kept the law perfectly?

I'm starting to wonder if you ask questions only to ask questions.
Quote the words where I said salvation through faith refers only to the millenial kingdom, or implies that.
Qutoe the words where I said or implied OT saints were not justified by faith.
Quote the words where I said or implied anyone under Mosaic law kept it perfectly.

Then I'll answer you.

If he could quote you, Alfred, why would he need to ask you such questions? Huh
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« Reply #40 on: July 23, 2011, 04:10:52 PM »

This is not true.  God 'worked' with Israel.  God 'worked' with the Apostles.  The Body of Christ is the Church, which is more than one person.

The Scriptures are made up primarily of God 'working' with groups of people.  Even when He 'works' with an individual, it still ends up being about the group, because salvation is offered to all men.


Its easy to slander God's way of doing things, He prefers working with individuals, not groups, and that appears too chaotic for many:

Of course God works with the church and ancient Israel was a theocracy, not denying that.

BUT, its very clear He has a personal relationship with each individual child...and resents it being diminished.

Ponder this, He who made the stars that can't be counted, and knows them all perfectly (=by name), also knows us perfectly, and loves us as individuals. The kingdom of the heavens, New Jerusalem coming down from heaven, God's tent being with men, is not about us being in a organization...its us being in Him, that is the meaning of us worshipping God in His temple, and the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the Temple, we will be in Him

 22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.
 23 The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light.
 24 And the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it.
 25 Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there).
 26 And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it.
 27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life. (Rev 21:22-27 NKJ)

 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all. (1Co 15:28 NKJ)

 21 "that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, (Joh 17:21 NKJ)
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« Reply #41 on: July 23, 2011, 04:12:34 PM »

But its obviously true, absolutely necessary. When Christ returns, billions of people will have survived the Antichrist and wars and plagues.

But its not right they enter the kingdom, they didn't believe in Christ when salvation was offered...they didn't show "faith" and salvation is through faith:

 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, (Eph 2:8 NKJ)

Only after Christ appears...do they believe. Their belief is not "faith," its acknowledgement of reality, so they cannot be saved by faith as we were.

So they fall under a different dispensation...analogous to the OT dispensation, where they are judged by their works, their obedience to the Laws of God. Hence the prophet Ezekiel prophesied the new Temple in Christ's kingdom.

Are you saying that the "salvation through faith" in ephesians refers only to the millenial kingdom and not the eternal kingdom?

Are you also saying that the OT saints are not justified by faith?

Are you implying that there was anyone under the mosaic law before Jesus Christ who kept the law perfectly?

I'm starting to wonder if you ask questions only to ask questions.
Quote the words where I said salvation through faith refers only to the millenial kingdom, or implies that.
Qutoe the words where I said or implied OT saints were not justified by faith.
Quote the words where I said or implied anyone under Mosaic law kept it perfectly.

Then I'll answer you.

If he could quote you, Alfred, why would he need to ask you such questions? Huh

I never said or implied those things, don't know where he got them.

Very curious how he arrived at those questions therefore must know that, before I answer. Its relevant.
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« Reply #42 on: July 23, 2011, 04:53:31 PM »

But its obviously true, absolutely necessary. When Christ returns, billions of people will have survived the Antichrist and wars and plagues.

But its not right they enter the kingdom, they didn't believe in Christ when salvation was offered...they didn't show "faith" and salvation is through faith:

 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, (Eph 2:8 NKJ)

Only after Christ appears...do they believe. Their belief is not "faith," its acknowledgement of reality, so they cannot be saved by faith as we were.

So they fall under a different dispensation...analogous to the OT dispensation, where they are judged by their works, their obedience to the Laws of God. Hence the prophet Ezekiel prophesied the new Temple in Christ's kingdom.

Are you saying that the "salvation through faith" in ephesians refers only to the millenial kingdom and not the eternal kingdom?

Are you also saying that the OT saints are not justified by faith?

Are you implying that there was anyone under the mosaic law before Jesus Christ who kept the law perfectly?

I'm starting to wonder if you ask questions only to ask questions.
Quote the words where I said salvation through faith refers only to the millenial kingdom, or implies that.
Qutoe the words where I said or implied OT saints were not justified by faith.
Quote the words where I said or implied anyone under Mosaic law kept it perfectly.

Then I'll answer you.

If he could quote you, Alfred, why would he need to ask you such questions? Huh

I never said or implied those things, don't know where he got them.
Evidently, he thought you implied those things. The best thing you could do is simply say, "I never said that." You don't have to judge his motives by accusing him of asking questions merely for their rhetorical value.

Very curious how he arrived at those questions therefore must know that, before I answer. Its relevant.
Only for those who jump to half-baked conclusions. Why don't you just ask him why he asked you his questions? Or do you know the minds of others as well as you know the mind of God?
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« Reply #43 on: July 23, 2011, 04:58:07 PM »

You misunderstood, I will never forget scripture truth...For argument's sake, as it appeared Christ's millennial kingdom was confusing our discussion of Hades, I said, forget it for now, its not material to the concept of hell.

OK. No mention of millenial kingdom for sake of discussion.

Quote
But its obviously true, absolutely necessary.

But it is "absolutely necessary" so you will talk as though it is and even explicitly mention it later in this post. So I will try to go with it.

Quote
When Christ returns, billions of people will have survived the Antichrist and wars and plagues.

But its not right they enter the kingdom,

I understand you to mean the "absolutely necessary" millenial kingdom here.

Quote
they didn't believe in Christ when salvation was offered...they didn't show "faith" and salvation is through faith:

 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, (Eph 2:8 NKJ)

Only after Christ appears...do they believe. Their belief is not "faith," its acknowledgement of reality, so they cannot be saved by faith as we were.

I understand this to mean that "entrance into millenial kingdom"="salvation" because you are talking about your "absolutely necessary" millenial kingdom. Entrance in this kingdom is "salvation through faith" is the implication of quoting that verse in this immediate context.

That is the root of my first question.

Quote
So they fall under a different dispensation...analogous to the OT dispensation, where they are judged by their works, their obedience to the Laws of God. Hence the prophet Ezekiel prophesied the new Temple in Christ's kingdom.

If those under the OT covenant are judged based on their works and obedience to the law, as stated above, then the obvious question is my second - how they OT saints are justified. And if they are justified by the works of the law, then my third question makes sense to be asked.


Quote
For a thousand years these survivors are tested, those who fail the test, die and go to Hades just as sinners do now. But they weren't written in the Lamb's book of life because they are called "ACCURSED":

The thousand years thing.
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« Reply #44 on: July 23, 2011, 06:09:26 PM »

While Hades is relevant to the millennial kingdom, the millennial kingdom isn't necessary to the discussion of Hades.

My Explaining why the 1000 year reign of Christ is necessary was on a last "blurb" on the topic till we returned to talk about it.


I was postponing conversation about it to discuss Hades, but was giving one last statement why I believe the millennial kingdom is absolutely necessary.

The millennial kingdom is NECESSARY because billions of people ignored the preaching of the Gospel, or never heard it, when Christ arrives.

As faith is necessary to salvation, and "faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" (Heb 11:1 NKJ), its clear these cannot be saved, for they cannot excercise faith, they SEE everything, it no longer requires faith to believe in Christ, He is standing there in front of everyone.


God can't let these into the kingdom without being saved, can He? OF COURSE NOT, therefore God does what He did in the past with the Israelites, another dispensation of law returns for a 1,000 years, hence Ezekiel's Temple is different than the Mosaic Temple, its requirements different, and its much more glorious.

But salvation by grace through faith is NOW, not in God's Millennial kingdom, for then faith is impossible.

Had these billions of unbelievers died before Christ returned, they would have went to Hades, and SOME would repent upon learning the truth of the gospel would "live according to God in the spirit" 1 Pet 4:6 and then be saved in the Day of the Lord Jesus, at the final resurrection (1 Cor 5:5; Rev 20:11ff)

But they didn't die, and God isn't going to kill them now.

So the 1,000 year reign of Christ is to test them, weed out those not written in the Lamb's book of life, and it culminates with Satan being let out of his prison, to tempt these once more...and many of them fail the test:


7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison
 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea.
 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.
 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
 (Rev 20:7-10 NKJ)


Where are we who believe now, in this life, during the 1,000 year reign? We reign with Christ during this time, as His kings and priests:


 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
 7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison
 (Rev 20:4-7 NKJ)


These things are plainly stated in scripture, which is why its the consensus of the fathers chilasm is apostolic doctrine. Its odd the Orthodox believe their opinions are more mature than what the apostles taught, what the Bible says. But that issue is for another time IF you want to discuss Hades.

If you want to discuss the millennial kingdom, I'm fine with that also.

You choose.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2011, 06:31:07 PM by Alfred Persson » Logged

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)
Tags: problem of hell Hades election predestination Resurrection Gehenna judgement day Sola Alfredina Perssonism Godwin's Law 
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