Author Topic: Germanwings Flight 9525  (Read 321 times)

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Offline Gamliel

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« Last Edit: Yesterday at 03:05:52 PM by minasoliman »

Offline biro

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Re: Germanwings Flight 9525
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2015, 04:09:28 PM »
I've been watching the updates on CNN for a while.

They are saying that the co-pilot deliberately crashed the plane.

Unbelievable.  :'(
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Offline biro

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Re: Germanwings Flight 9525
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2015, 04:12:39 PM »
On the Deutsche Welle news site, they are now blurring out the face of the co-pilot in photos.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Germanwings Flight 9525
« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2015, 04:15:00 PM »
On the Deutsche Welle news site, they are now blurring out the face of the co-pilot in photos.

Do you know why?
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Offline biro

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Re: Germanwings Flight 9525
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2015, 04:22:00 PM »
On the Deutsche Welle news site, they are now blurring out the face of the co-pilot in photos.

Do you know why?

I wonder if it's because a lot of people may have had an immediate reaction and sent in complaints. I don't see an explanation, but here is a link to the most recent article, also linked on the front of the site.

http://www.dw.de/police-search-home-of-andreas-lubitz-germanwings-co-pilot-behind-crash/a-18344349
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Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Germanwings Flight 9525
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2015, 04:52:58 PM »
And now we have a self-professed "Christian" blogger, Vox Day, blaming the crash on women (!) for not giving more sex to nerdy, "beta male" guys like this co-pilot. (Vox Day is the same guy who said the Taliban shooting Malala Yusufzai was a perfectly rational act). How charming. Some people have no shame.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2015, 04:53:10 PM by Minnesotan »

Offline biro

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Re: Germanwings Flight 9525
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2015, 04:56:14 PM »
And now we have a self-professed "Christian" blogger, Vox Day, blaming the crash on women (!) for not giving more sex to nerdy, "beta male" guys like this co-pilot. (Vox Day is the same guy who said the Taliban shooting Malala Yusufzai was a perfectly rational act). How charming. Some people have no shame.

Oh good grief.
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Germanwings Flight 9525
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2015, 05:09:02 PM »
What causes the emoticon next to the thread. On this tiny screen it looks like it is smiling.

But yeah, who cares? This is junk food news.
Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Germanwings Flight 9525
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2015, 05:09:51 PM »
And now we have a self-professed "Christian" blogger, Vox Day, blaming the crash on women (!) for not giving more sex to nerdy, "beta male" guys like this co-pilot. (Vox Day is the same guy who said the Taliban shooting Malala Yusufzai was a perfectly rational act). How charming. Some people have no shame.


Too bad you were around for Sauron and his special brand of posting.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Germanwings Flight 9525
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2015, 05:13:45 PM »
And now we have a self-professed "Christian" blogger, Vox Day, blaming the crash on women (!) for not giving more sex to nerdy, "beta male" guys like this co-pilot.

Man, if a guy has a college degree, flies a plane for a living, and is still an unsexed "beta male", what hope do we OCNetters have? 
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Offline Gamliel

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Re: Germanwings Flight 9525
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2015, 05:46:22 PM »
What causes the emoticon next to the thread. On this tiny screen it looks like it is smiling.

But yeah, who cares? This is junk food news.
Good question.  I meant to hit the "sad" button. :-[
« Last Edit: March 26, 2015, 06:14:49 PM by Gamliel »

Offline wgw

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Re: Germanwings Flight 9525
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2015, 06:10:48 PM »
So this may not have been a suicide.  A few years ago the pilots of an A330 trying to recover from a stall crashed because the terrified copilot kept his hand pushing down on the joystick and the pilot didn't see it.  Which was the right thing to do at first (to get out of a stall, step one is to push down.  But if you keep pitching down you will crash).  Unlike the yokes on Boeing, Embraer or Bombardier airliners, the joysticks on the Air Bus aircraft starting with the A320 (not including the nearly extinct A300 and A310), do not move in unison.

So let's say the A320 hit an unusual air pocket, or had an engine malfunction, or some other incident and stalled.  It could have been an exact repeat of what happened to Air France.  Even if that was not the case, unless we have a recording of the copilot saying "Hahaha, now I'm going to kill everyone" while the pilot stepped out of the cockpit, suicide is impossible to prove.  You can have instances of suspected suicides but they might be due to seizures or other problems occurring at a critical moment in flight.

There were two crashes attributed to suicide in recent years, aside from 9/11, one involving EgyptAir and the other involving SilkAir.  In both cases, Egypt and Indonesia have rejected the  NTSB opinion that it was suicide due to the Muslim cultural taboo against this.  And maybe they have a point; it could have been unintentional suicide caused by pilot confusion. There have been new studies showing engine bleed air, which is what you're breathing on everything except a Boeing 787, is not as healthy as was previously thought, particularly for flight crew who breathe it daily.

But until we get the official report even speculation is dangerous.  Although I do with it was the NTSB and not the BEA or the German or Swiss authorities handling this.  The BEA in prior decades and the Germans botched a number of investigations for political reasons, such as the Air Inter A320 crash and in the 1950s the Munich air disaster involving a British European Airways Airspeed Ambassador, which was wrongly attributed to icing rather than runway contamination. But hopefully they've improved and we will get a good report.  I am a big fan of the NTSB though; they consistently focus on improving safety, preventing accidents and not finding a culprit for the masses to hate on.  And because they're separate from the FAA which performs day to day inspection, regulation and enforcement, they are quite impartial; they have on many occasions blamed the FAA.  If you care about aviation safety, you want impartial investigators who have no ties to the police, who people aren't afraid to talk to.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2015, 06:11:37 PM by wgw »
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Offline wgw

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Re: Germanwings Flight 9525
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2015, 06:15:44 PM »
And now we have a self-professed "Christian" blogger, Vox Day, blaming the crash on women (!) for not giving more sex to nerdy, "beta male" guys like this co-pilot.

Man, if a guy has a college degree, flies a plane for a living, and is still an unsexed "beta male", what hope do we OCNetters have?

In my experience a lot of people in the aviation industry are gay.  Also, pilots don't get paid that much these days, especially younger pilots.  I have a friend whose a pilot in Canada, a commercial pilot, and his life is challenging.  You really have to care about aviation to do it.  And pilots aren't as sexy as they were in the 1960s, since modern day pilots tend basically to be aerospace nerds, who in their day job are basically systems analysts.  You punch in the destination into the flight management computer, do a bit of taxiing, get some radio clearances and voila, everything is automatic.  It's only hard work when landing in a thunderstorm or when an emergency happens.  Otherwise the pilots are basically just talking to air traffic control for a few hours before landing, which can be fully automatic if the airport has ILS and so on.

So the romantic image of every pilot being a hotshot semi celebrity with young flight attendants of the opposite sex at his side belongs to the 1960s.  Things are much more prosaic these days.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2015, 06:17:17 PM by wgw »
I am Oriental Orthodox but love the Eastern Orthodox, and the Byzantine liturgy.  I also love the Western liturgy.  I hope for the reconciliation of our churches.

Please forgive any offense my posts cause; none is intended. No statements I make should be regarded as authoritative, regardless of tone. Let us bless the Lord ar all times.

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Germanwings Flight 9525
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2015, 06:39:49 PM »
And now we have a self-professed "Christian" blogger, Vox Day, blaming the crash on women (!) for not giving more sex to nerdy, "beta male" guys like this co-pilot.

Man, if a guy has a college degree, flies a plane for a living, and is still an unsexed "beta male", what hope do we OCNetters have?

In my experience a lot of people in the aviation industry are gay.  Also, pilots don't get paid that much these days, especially younger pilots. 

This, and then they are happy that they have jobs to begin with. There is very little hiring going on in the aviation business, which is particularly disastrous for young, inexperienced pilots just out of aviation school. Being a pilot isn't all that nice these days. The times, they are a-changin'.

This particular pilot, for example, lived with his parents even though he was 27.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2015, 06:43:36 PM by Cyrillic »
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Offline wgw

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Re: Germanwings Flight 9525
« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2015, 07:43:01 PM »
And at 27 he was hugely lucky to have a job flying an Airbus and not a turboprop commuter plane, a regional jet or a single engined courier/freighter.

But having read the reports, this definitely was a suicidal crash.  He locked the pilot of of the cockpit during a bathroom break.

I think this does point to a security flaw in our post 9/11 security arrangements for the flight deck.  They entirely overlook the possibility of a legitimate pilot going rogue and locking out his colleague.  I think a biometric security system tied to a keycard and a combination code or PIN number unique to the pilots should be used. We use this every day in the IT industry to control access to our data centers.  The machines use handscan and a four digit PIN number.   Additionally if the pilot thinks his copilot has gone bezerk or is under duress I would also give each pilot a four digit distress code, or two; one might cut off air in the cockpit, and the other in the cabin, depending on circumstances.  Since badge access and a handscan would be required to input any of the three unique codes there would be no danger of a passenger entering them.  The only possible problem might be if the pilot accidentally put in the wrong code, but there are safeguards against this that could be used.   I'm going to talk to my colleagues and look into pursuing this idea seriously.
I am Oriental Orthodox but love the Eastern Orthodox, and the Byzantine liturgy.  I also love the Western liturgy.  I hope for the reconciliation of our churches.

Please forgive any offense my posts cause; none is intended. No statements I make should be regarded as authoritative, regardless of tone. Let us bless the Lord ar all times.

Online Justin Kissel

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Re: Germanwings Flight 9525
« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2015, 08:00:41 PM »
Rogue pilot enters code, incapacitates everyone, and then crashes plane before anyone knows what is happening...
We all have an El Guapo to face. Be brave, and fight like lions!

Form a 'brute squad' then!

Offline wgw

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Re: Germanwings Flight 9525
« Reply #16 on: March 26, 2015, 10:53:14 PM »
Rogue pilot enters code, incapacitates everyone, and then crashes plane before anyone knows what is happening...

Obviously such a system would need a variety of safeguards.  What's really needed is continual air to ground data transmission instead of black boxes and some work on approaches for secure remote lockout and remote control.  A remote lockout and control system, if one can overcome the security risks associated with it, which would be a huge challenge, but potentially a.lifesaver.
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Please forgive any offense my posts cause; none is intended. No statements I make should be regarded as authoritative, regardless of tone. Let us bless the Lord ar all times.

Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Germanwings Flight 9525
« Reply #17 on: Yesterday at 01:40:25 AM »
Why is there a huge smile next to the title of the first post? It looks more than little distasteful considering the subject matter. Most threads just have the "pieces of paper" icon.

Offline wgw

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Re: Germanwings Flight 9525
« Reply #18 on: Yesterday at 05:17:46 AM »
It was certainly an accident on the part of the OP, since his post in no way suggests happiness.  But if a mod fixed it that would be good for everyone.  The smile he used is right next to this character: >:(

On an iPad it's quite easy to hit the wrong one by mistake.
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Offline Gamliel

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Re: Germanwings Flight 9525
« Reply #19 on: Yesterday at 10:10:35 AM »
As I already wrote in post 10, I meant to hit the "sad" button.

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Germanwings Flight 9525
« Reply #20 on: Yesterday at 10:45:22 AM »
And at 27 he was hugely lucky to have a job flying an Airbus and not a turboprop commuter plane, a regional jet or a single engined courier/freighter.

But having read the reports, this definitely was a suicidal crash.  He locked the pilot of of the cockpit during a bathroom break.

Quote
Not only was this no accident, it wasn’t a suicide either.  This is a “fly by wire” jet.  International convention required this plane to have certain anti-hijacking safeguards.  One of them, complicated by German pig-headedness, left a co-pilot alone in a cockpit, something illegal in the US. As humorist Rob Hanson points, out, what kind of plan figures a pilot can’t make two hours without a bathroom break?  It all falls apart here, I hope you see it. 

Reading the tale of French air traffic controllers watching 9525 plunge inexorably ground ward is equally incredulous.  This plane has a remote, satellite initiated fly by wire system.  You see, 150 passengers and crew are one thing.  Crashing a plane into a hospital, stadium or nuclear power plant, such as the ones directly under 9525’s flight path, is reason to initiate through satellite the Raython system.

Did the French forget it existed?  Oh, did we tell you that the same system that can automatically land planes can crash them as well?  Did we mention that the source code for the system is “less than secure” and that a nation known for cyber attacks, China, Russia, Israel or even the United States, is quite capable of taking control of any airliner at any time and plunging it into anything at all? What is even better is that no investigator can legally mention this, no reporter can write of it, no one can admit such a system exists though any idiot with the money to buy a couple of drinks at an airport bar can find out.  Pilots gossip like nobody’s business.
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2015/03/26/this-crash-is-in-no-way-manner-nor-form-a-credible-accident-or-suicide/
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 10:46:15 AM by rakovsky »

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Germanwings Flight 9525
« Reply #21 on: Yesterday at 11:20:47 AM »
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

Mor no longer posts on OCNet.  He follows threads, posts his responses daily, occasionally starts threads, and responds to private messages when and as he wants.  But he really isn't around anymore.


Offline minasoliman

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Re: Germanwings Flight 9525
« Reply #22 on: Yesterday at 03:06:18 PM »
What causes the emoticon next to the thread. On this tiny screen it looks like it is smiling.

But yeah, who cares? This is junk food news.
Good question.  I meant to hit the "sad" button. :-[

Fixed
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Offline Keble

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Re: Germanwings Flight 9525
« Reply #23 on: Yesterday at 03:19:48 PM »
I think this does point to a security flaw in our post 9/11 security arrangements for the flight deck.  They entirely overlook the possibility of a legitimate pilot going rogue and locking out his colleague.

US regulations already require two people on the flight deck; I believe that one of the attendants takes the place of a pilot if they leave for the restroom or whatever. It should also be pointed out, however, that even when there are two pilots present it is likely impossible for one to prevent the other from crashing the plane, as demonstrated in the EgyptAir 990 crash.

Offline wgw

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Re: Germanwings Flight 9525
« Reply #24 on: Yesterday at 04:31:47 PM »
The Captain was out of the flight deck and the first officer was asleep in the crew rest area during the 990 crash.  By the time the Captain reached the flight deck it was too late; he can lock the controls against the copilot but not override, but if he had been there earlier he would have had more options, like physically attacking the copilot, using the throttles or the elevator trim to compensate for the pitch down, et cetera.   But as the aircraft accelerated towards the sea and the g forces increased the captain ran out of time.  But it's not like he was right there in a position to stop the rogue pilot and unable to do so.

Now in the Air France crash the copilot could have been stopped but in the panic of the stall no one noticed he was shoving his joystick down.  Which was the right thing to do at first, but the man became terrified, and it didn't occur to the Captain that that was even the problem.  Classic human factors error.  IMO air uses should be fitted with indicators to show the position of the flight controls based on joystick input, a simple circular display with a dot in the center, so that each pilot knows what the other is doing.  Indicators for the rudder pedals and the Altitude Select button would be nice also.
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Germanwings Flight 9525
« Reply #25 on: Today at 12:40:37 AM »
Wgw,

It sounds like you have some flight knowledge.

See also:


Quote
Hacked: Did You Really Think Cockpit Door Was Locked?

In all likelihood, the cabin crew of the ill fated GermanWings flight could simply have entered the cockpit at any time.  If the plane were programmed specially to disallow this normal capability of the Airbus320 series, the airline has failed to inform the public of this.

In order to add to the explosion of information about the recent air event over France, we have done some simple research on the operation of the cockpit door of an A320.  We have published, below, the operations manual.


Additionally, as soon as the false information was released that air controllers were unable to contact the crew of the plane, it should have been mentioned that crew members have satellite phones available. Rather than pounding on a door, the pilot might well have been on the phone asking NORAD to land the plane for him. These phones are usually in each of the crew areas, fore and aft galleys and often sitting out in the open.
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2015/03/27/350535/
« Last Edit: Today at 12:41:19 AM by rakovsky »

Offline Keble

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Re: Germanwings Flight 9525
« Reply #26 on: Today at 08:40:10 AM »
Well, it's about time to consign this thread to politics, when a wingnut site like VT is being invoked. But really, there are a lot of journalists out there who fly planes themselves, and there are a number of them who fly planes like this Airbus. Presumably if this theory gets any real traction one of them will step forward to refute it, but in any case there is no reason to take seriously the kind of person whose reaction to a CVR recording of people banging furiously on a door and screaming for it to be unlocked in a diving plane is to assue it must be faked.