Author Topic: What would you have said?  (Read 6434 times)

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Offline IsmiLiora

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What would you have said?
« on: July 17, 2011, 07:27:57 PM »
A few weeks ago, my husband and I had a burning curiosity to see if there were any Orthodox books at the local Family Christian Bookstore.

http://www.familychristian.com/

Take a look around. It is land of the free and home of the evangelicals. I used to buy books and music there once upon a time.

We had been looking for Orthodox books in our local bookstores and didn't find anything except a 100-something page introduction to the Church.

We pretty much doubted that they would have anything Orthodox in-store (when my friend was looking for a Catholic Bible years back, the store only had 2 of them, any they were not in the Bible section), but we had run out of the brick-and-mortar options. We decided to look anyway. When we got into the store, I started scanning the shelves but didn't find anything. A sales clerk came up to us and said, "How can I help you?"

"We're looking for books the Eastern Orthodox Church," my husband said. "Do you have any?"

"No," he answered immediately.

"Nothing? Not even a general intro book or something about the Church?" I further inquired.

He started looking at the shelves and said, "No, no we don't have any books like that." He paused for a minute. "Well, if you mean orthodoxy, as in TRUE Christianity, we have a lot of those books here."

My husband and I just looked at each other. Perhaps this hit a special nerve since I was that guy just a couple of years ago. My instinct was to respond in a way that was unladylike, insulting, and included at least 3 expletives.

We just turned around and walked out of the store, speechless.

How would you have responded?

I sometimes wonder whether I should have stood my ground and said something smart that was not inappropriate, but sometimes I wonder if it's even worth it. My father in law is concerned that we're not going to a "Bible-based church," and I am harboring so much anger against that accusation. The ignorance is astounding. I didn't even know about the Orthodox Church as a true option myself until a few years ago.

I don't want to be one of those people who chase you down the block and try to save your soul, but I feel like such baseless claims should be addressed.

What do you all think?
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Offline akimori makoto

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Re: What would you have said?
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2011, 07:51:22 PM »
I sometimes wonder whether I should have stood my ground and said something smart that was not inappropriate, but sometimes I wonder if it's even worth it. My father in law is concerned that we're not going to a "Bible-based church," and I am harboring so much anger against that accusation.

I feel ya. This accusation really enrages me (Lord, have mercy!).

Forgive my cynicism, but I doubt you could have said anything in that time-constrained interaction which would have been fruitful for that man or his colleagues.
The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.

Offline Kasatkin fan

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Re: What would you have said?
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2011, 08:11:55 PM »
"Yes I do mean True Christianity, but I just don't see any books on it here."

But really, you did the best thing, just leave. You wouldn't have been able to say anything to convince him of his error, and belittling his beliefs would have only resulted in a slightly longer confession.

Offline PrincessMommy

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Re: What would you have said?
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2011, 08:53:00 PM »
Are you sure he was trying to be snarky?   Could it have been he thought you mean Judiasm?  We get that one way too often.

I might have tried to educate him.  "Nooo, I mean the ancient church which has preserved the teachings & practices of the Apostles and the early church."  Of course, I might have said it in my condescending  "I am the mom" voice too.  ;)

Offline tuesdayschild

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Re: What would you have said?
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2011, 09:18:59 PM »
I think you behaved like the man who comes home and kicks the dog because he's mad at his boss. Leave the poor, "ignorant" clerk alone and speak to your father-in-law about the Church on a level he can understand (use the Bible). Work on the more important relationship and you soon won't care that Zondervan's caters to a different audience than Light & Life.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2011, 09:41:38 PM by tuesdayschild »

Offline RPR

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Re: What would you have said?
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2011, 09:40:36 PM »
The really amazing thing is that what the store clerk was calling orthodox is , more than likely, Dispensationalism. Which was developed by John Darby in England in 1820. It was brought to the U.S. by Dwight L. Moody and popularized by him and C.I. Schofield.  Dispensationalism was out of the Christian mainstream until the 1970's when books like "The Late Great Planet Earth" and then movies like "The Omen" really popularized it. The Dallas Theological Seminary, Moody Bible Institute and other Dispensationalist seminaries began cranking out pastors and many of them got on radio spreading their theology,  like J. Vernon Magee and a myriad others. They never call themselves Dispensationalists, but simply Christians, or Bible believing Christians. Plus some large denominations like certain Baptists and Pentacostals accept their graduates as pastors. They have done a great sales job. Too bad. To believe what they teach you have to believe that for over 1820 years the Church had everything wrong until Darby figured it out.

The young clerk is ignorant of church history. The store chain is geared for getting out dispensational books and contemporary Christian junk because it sells.  There really is no talking with him. When told that they didn't carry Ortodox books I would have said that's too bad and left.

Conciliar Press and others are finally getting out more books on Orthodoxy.  Until more people ask for them in the stores they won't be carried.

Offline Shiny

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Re: What would you have said?
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2011, 09:51:09 PM »
Surprisingly Borders has a decent selection. I've found Way of the Pilgrim and Pilgrim Continues his Way there too.

You should've checked out Lifeway Christian Bookstore funded by the SBC ;)
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Offline JamesRottnek

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Re: What would you have said?
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2011, 10:00:51 PM »
I would have asked him if he had read Paul's epistles.  Especially that one that talks about the tradition delivered by word...

EDIT: Or, alternatively, you could have asked him something like "So, when did Christ go back to Heaven?  And when was the first book of the Bible written?  I wonder what the Christians did for those thirty years, have any ideas?"
« Last Edit: July 17, 2011, 10:01:43 PM by JamesRottnek »
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Re: What would you have said?
« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2011, 12:28:49 AM »
I generally don't get into those kinds of conversations, just because I assume that they'll devolve into arguments and I'll say something I shouldn't. I don't know what works best for you, but I tend to just let that sort of thing go.

Zondervan's caters to a different audience than Light & Life.

They do?  ???  :P

Offline Stephen St. Pierre

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Re: What would you have said?
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2011, 01:02:29 AM »
When he said, "if you mean orthodoxy, as in TRUE Christianity, we have a lot of those books here," you should have said, "Oh good! Can I see one of those?"

Then when he showed you one - you could have laughed and said, "No I mean Orthodoxy as in TRUE Christianity taught by the New Testament Church founded by Jesus' apostles on Pentecost. This is just some Protestant stuff."

And THEN walk out the door, coming back later with some literature for the man so he knows you care.

Offline vamrat

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Re: What would you have said?
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2011, 04:54:27 PM »
I hope you didn't forget to wipe the dust from your sandals when you left...  Wouldn't want heretic-dust soiling your carpet.  Not even steam cleaning can get that out.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2011, 04:55:03 PM by vamrat »
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

Offline Xenia1918

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Re: What would you have said?
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2011, 05:07:27 PM »
Nowadays, sadly, "Christian" in the title of a bookstore means "fundamentalist and/or evangelical Protestants who often dislike Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox and anybody else who is too liturgical".

I would order from Christian Book Distributors: http://www.cbd.com While they too are mostly for "born again" types, they do sell some Orthodox books, including the Orthodox Study Bible, at discounted prices too. This is what I got when I did a search on their site using just the word "orthodox": http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/easy_find?Ntt=orthodox&N=0&Ntk=keywords&action=Search&Ne=0&event=ESRCG&nav_search=1&cms=1&search=

I feel for you though; right now I'm debating whether I should defriend this fundie woman on my Facebook page; I have a lot of Orthodox and RC friends, and some are getting insulted by her snide comments whenever I post anything Orthodox....its usually little remarks about how "religion won't save you, only Christ will", or, "Scripture is what we need, not church traditions"....to which I replied with 2 Thess. 2:15 and James 1:27. :)
« Last Edit: July 18, 2011, 05:11:48 PM by Xenia1918 »
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Offline sainthieu

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Re: What would you have said?
« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2011, 05:45:17 PM »
I would have laughed. What are you going to do, argue with the poor guy? He's ignorant--not evil. Something about forgiveness comes to mind.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2011, 05:48:53 PM by sainthieu »

Offline Xenia1918

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Re: What would you have said?
« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2011, 05:51:52 PM »
To the OP: I was clicking around some more on the CBD site and foudn they have a separate "Eastern Orthodox Store":

http://www.christianbook.com/easternorthodoxy

They have their stuff at discounted prices, and if you become a member, you get better deals.
"O God, enlarge within us the sense of fellowship with all living things, our brothers the animals to whom Thou gavest the earth as their home in common with us..." (from the Prayer of St Basil the Great)

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Offline sainthieu

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Re: What would you have said?
« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2011, 05:53:36 PM »
Hey, I love Vernon Magee! I used to listen to him at night when I had insomnia. He was a sweet old guy.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2011, 05:58:24 PM by sainthieu »

Offline Monk Cyprian

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Re: What would you have said?
« Reply #15 on: July 18, 2011, 06:02:27 PM »
I hope you didn't forget to wipe the dust from your sandals when you left...  Wouldn't want heretic-dust soiling your carpet.  Not even steam cleaning can get that out.

Is outrage!  Was it heretic-dust soiling carpets in XIXth Century Russia?

Only thing worse than heretic-dust is healing on the Sabbath!

 :P
Was it Divine Liturgy in English in XIXth Century Russia?  No, it was not I am the telling you!  Is OUTRAGE!  Now is to be Slavonic music and Byzantine vestment in same church. This is what when KGB run the seminary.

Offline IsmiLiora

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Re: What would you have said?
« Reply #16 on: July 18, 2011, 06:51:27 PM »
I would have laughed. What are you going to do, argue with the poor guy? He's ignorant--not evil. Something about forgiveness comes to mind.
Well obviously, I knew well enough not to say anything at all.

How is offering a mild correction or just saying, "Well, to Orthodox Christians it is truly Christianity," wrong? Mind you, I'm not sold on doing that either. I've argued about my faith for so long that I'm tired of polemical debates, but sometimes I really have to bite my tongue when I hear this stuff.
She's touring the facility/and picking up slack.
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Offline vamrat

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Re: What would you have said?
« Reply #17 on: July 18, 2011, 07:13:19 PM »
I hope you didn't forget to wipe the dust from your sandals when you left...  Wouldn't want heretic-dust soiling your carpet.  Not even steam cleaning can get that out.

Is outrage!  Was it heretic-dust soiling carpets in XIXth Century Russia?

Only thing worse than heretic-dust is healing on the Sabbath!

 :P

Indeed, it was.  The only thing worse than heretic dust is asbestos.  In a day care.

BTW, Monk Cyprian, are you the monk in your avatar with the M1919A6?
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

Offline Monk Cyprian

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Re: What would you have said?
« Reply #18 on: July 18, 2011, 07:55:15 PM »
Monk Cyprian, are you the monk in your avatar with the M1919A6?

No, that's not me.  Nor is that a Browning.  Brownings are quite different.  This is a Browning:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1919_Browning_machine_gun

This is a Degtyaryov:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degtyaryov_machine_gun

Admittedly, when it's shrunk down as it is for the avatar picture it might be harder to tell, but I've got the link below where it's a slightly larger picture, and you can clearly see it's a variant of the Degtyaryov.

http://weedoom.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/priest-with-big-machine-gun.jpg
Was it Divine Liturgy in English in XIXth Century Russia?  No, it was not I am the telling you!  Is OUTRAGE!  Now is to be Slavonic music and Byzantine vestment in same church. This is what when KGB run the seminary.

Offline sainthieu

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Re: What would you have said?
« Reply #19 on: July 18, 2011, 08:05:20 PM »
...sometimes I really have to bite my tongue when I hear this stuff.

So do I, but try not to get so angry. There's ego in anger (and, boy, would I know). 'Put up thy sword into the sheath' as Someone Famous once said. Ya gotta pick your battles.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2011, 08:05:59 PM by sainthieu »

Offline CBGardner

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Re: What would you have said?
« Reply #20 on: July 18, 2011, 08:33:31 PM »
A few weeks ago, my husband and I had a burning curiosity to see if there were any Orthodox books at the local Family Christian Bookstore.

http://www.familychristian.com/

Take a look around. It is land of the free and home of the evangelicals. I used to buy books and music there once upon a time.

We had been looking for Orthodox books in our local bookstores and didn't find anything except a 100-something page introduction to the Church.

We pretty much doubted that they would have anything Orthodox in-store (when my friend was looking for a Catholic Bible years back, the store only had 2 of them, any they were not in the Bible section), but we had run out of the brick-and-mortar options. We decided to look anyway. When we got into the store, I started scanning the shelves but didn't find anything. A sales clerk came up to us and said, "How can I help you?"

"We're looking for books the Eastern Orthodox Church," my husband said. "Do you have any?"

"No," he answered immediately.

"Nothing? Not even a general intro book or something about the Church?" I further inquired.

He started looking at the shelves and said, "No, no we don't have any books like that." He paused for a minute. "Well, if you mean orthodoxy, as in TRUE Christianity, we have a lot of those books here."

My husband and I just looked at each other. Perhaps this hit a special nerve since I was that guy just a couple of years ago. My instinct was to respond in a way that was unladylike, insulting, and included at least 3 expletives.

We just turned around and walked out of the store, speechless.

How would you have responded?

I sometimes wonder whether I should have stood my ground and said something smart that was not inappropriate, but sometimes I wonder if it's even worth it. My father in law is concerned that we're not going to a "Bible-based church," and I am harboring so much anger against that accusation. The ignorance is astounding. I didn't even know about the Orthodox Church as a true option myself until a few years ago.

I don't want to be one of those people who chase you down the block and try to save your soul, but I feel like such baseless claims should be addressed.

What do you all think?


That's all it is, people not really knowing. I used to work at Family Christian and it is not confined to Orthodoxy. It's history, the Bible, even their own faith. Lord have mercy.
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Offline vamrat

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Re: What would you have said?
« Reply #21 on: July 18, 2011, 08:34:22 PM »
Monk Cyprian, are you the monk in your avatar with the M1919A6?

No, that's not me.  Nor is that a Browning.  Brownings are quite different.  This is a Browning:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1919_Browning_machine_gun

This is a Degtyaryov:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degtyaryov_machine_gun

Admittedly, when it's shrunk down as it is for the avatar picture it might be harder to tell, but I've got the link below where it's a slightly larger picture, and you can clearly see it's a variant of the Degtyaryov.

http://weedoom.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/priest-with-big-machine-gun.jpg

DP28 has a large "record player" on the top.  Not to mention a shorter shroud and cone flash suppressor.  Take a look again, the A6 is a para version with a stock.  Now, how the heck a monk has a WWII US LMG is beyond me!

EDIT - Sorry, I'm done thread-jacking!
« Last Edit: July 18, 2011, 08:34:58 PM by vamrat »
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

Offline Poppy

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Re: What would you have said?
« Reply #22 on: July 18, 2011, 09:08:48 PM »
I would have apolagised for troubling him and aksed him where the nearest Christian bookstore was... haha!!

Offline scamandrius

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Re: What would you have said?
« Reply #23 on: July 18, 2011, 09:18:01 PM »
Surprisingly Borders has a decent selection. I've found Way of the Pilgrim and Pilgrim Continues his Way there too.

Not at any Borders I've been to. I love the section labeled "Catholic and Orthodox Inspiration" and there is not a single Orthodox title to be found. I once told a manager of a Borders that the section should be renamed because of the lack of Orthodox materials.
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Offline scamandrius

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Re: What would you have said?
« Reply #24 on: July 18, 2011, 09:19:10 PM »
If I ever could, I would open up my own Orthodox bookstore.  Probably won't ever happen and I know it probably wouldn't have the draw as the evangelical or Catholic bookstores around here.  Still, it's something I'd like to do, if I ever had the money to do it.
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Offline CBGardner

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Re: What would you have said?
« Reply #25 on: July 18, 2011, 09:19:21 PM »
I would have apolagised for troubling him and aksed him where the nearest Christian bookstore was... haha!!

Hahaha  :laugh:

That was a hearty laugh. Well done Poppy.
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Offline akimori makoto

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Re: What would you have said?
« Reply #26 on: July 18, 2011, 09:42:27 PM »
If I ever could, I would open up my own Orthodox bookstore.  Probably won't ever happen and I know it probably wouldn't have the draw as the evangelical or Catholic bookstores around here.  Still, it's something I'd like to do, if I ever had the money to do it.

You'd just have to aim for a different niche.

If you open in the most hipsterish district you can find, dress all your staff in exorassa, light the shop with candlelight and only stock mystical fathers like Gregory Palamas, Simeon the New Theologian and Isaac the Syrian (none in the vein of John Chrysostom, Leo of Rome or Cyril of Alexandria), I think there'd be some good money in it.
The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.

Offline sainthieu

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Re: What would you have said?
« Reply #27 on: July 18, 2011, 10:00:43 PM »
Yeah, just take a look at Agia Sophia. They're opening a new branch on the east coast.

At one time I was thinking of opening just such a hipster bookstore/cafe near the University of Chicago. That was back in the 20th century, when I had financial resources.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2011, 10:01:19 PM by sainthieu »

Offline primuspilus

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Re: What would you have said?
« Reply #28 on: July 19, 2011, 12:00:48 PM »
Heh, I live in a base of operations of the Evangelical Empire (said with jest), Lynchburg VA (Falwell, the Moral Majority, Liberty U, etc.) and since I have started the conversion to Orthodoxy, I've talked to many of my friends about it and have gotten that kind of response.

Luckily, because of either our friendship, or the fact that Im the size of a well-fed Gorilla, they've been pretty nice about it. I feel for ya, and unfortunately, many folks of the Evangelical variety (of which I was one) have been so influenced there's little hope for them except for divine intervention :)

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Offline Poppy

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Re: What would you have said?
« Reply #29 on: July 19, 2011, 03:44:12 PM »
If I ever could, I would open up my own Orthodox bookstore.  Probably won't ever happen and I know it probably wouldn't have the draw as the evangelical or Catholic bookstores around here.  Still, it's something I'd like to do, if I ever had the money to do it.

You'd just have to aim for a different niche.

If you open in the most hipsterish district you can find, dress all your staff in exorassa, light the shop with candlelight and only stock mystical fathers like Gregory Palamas, Simeon the New Theologian and Isaac the Syrian (none in the vein of John Chrysostom, Leo of Rome or Cyril of Alexandria), I think there'd be some good money in it.

I just need a name now ...thanks??  ^.-

Offline akimori makoto

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Re: What would you have said?
« Reply #30 on: July 19, 2011, 09:18:11 PM »
or the fact that Im the size of a well-fed Gorilla, they've been pretty nice about it.

You dudes can get away with whatever you want.
The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.

Offline akimori makoto

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Re: What would you have said?
« Reply #31 on: July 19, 2011, 09:20:01 PM »
If I ever could, I would open up my own Orthodox bookstore.  Probably won't ever happen and I know it probably wouldn't have the draw as the evangelical or Catholic bookstores around here.  Still, it's something I'd like to do, if I ever had the money to do it.

You'd just have to aim for a different niche.

If you open in the most hipsterish district you can find, dress all your staff in exorassa, light the shop with candlelight and only stock mystical fathers like Gregory Palamas, Simeon the New Theologian and Isaac the Syrian (none in the vein of John Chrysostom, Leo of Rome or Cyril of Alexandria), I think there'd be some good money in it.

I just need a name now ...thanks??  ^.-

I am open to suggestions.
The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.

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Re: What would you have said?
« Reply #32 on: July 19, 2011, 10:22:46 PM »
If I ever could, I would open up my own Orthodox bookstore.  Probably won't ever happen and I know it probably wouldn't have the draw as the evangelical or Catholic bookstores around here.  Still, it's something I'd like to do, if I ever had the money to do it.

You'd just have to aim for a different niche.

If you open in the most hipsterish district you can find, dress all your staff in exorassa, light the shop with candlelight and only stock mystical fathers like Gregory Palamas, Simeon the New Theologian and Isaac the Syrian (none in the vein of John Chrysostom, Leo of Rome or Cyril of Alexandria), I think there'd be some good money in it.

I just need a name now ...thanks??  ^.-

I am open to suggestions.

Great, something for my brain to obsess about . . .

Offline orthonorm

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Re: What would you have said?
« Reply #33 on: July 19, 2011, 10:30:50 PM »
It either has to be dumbly ironic. Edgy. Or straight-forward enough to verge on irony. But not too arcane as not to draw in the uninitiated.

Dichotomy is always fun for those looking the something different:

The Urban Desert (Urban Desert Books)

First attempt, off the cuff. Not great. Brainstorming. No bad ideas.

Offline Poppy

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Re: What would you have said?
« Reply #34 on: July 20, 2011, 07:17:47 AM »
If I ever could, I would open up my own Orthodox bookstore.  Probably won't ever happen and I know it probably wouldn't have the draw as the evangelical or Catholic bookstores around here.  Still, it's something I'd like to do, if I ever had the money to do it.

You'd just have to aim for a different niche.

If you open in the most hipsterish district you can find, dress all your staff in exorassa, light the shop with candlelight and only stock mystical fathers like Gregory Palamas, Simeon the New Theologian and Isaac the Syrian (none in the vein of John Chrysostom, Leo of Rome or Cyril of Alexandria), I think there'd be some good money in it.

I just need a name now ...thanks??  ^.-

I am open to suggestions.

No i meant YOU give me a name.... i am stealing your ideas ʘ‿ʘ

Offline joasia

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Re: What would you have said?
« Reply #35 on: July 21, 2011, 12:18:04 AM »
Wow.  I'm really surprised by the initial posts.  So many negative comments.  How about the fact that it could have been an insight to truth for this man.  How can someone be the judge of a person's soul?   Instead there are "snarky" replies (on this thread).  The man wasn't even given a chance to hear the truth and so many here want to condemn his ignorance.  For those who are converts or thinking about it, remember where you come from.  For those that are cradle, remember that all are called to God.   Really, the sarcasm is ironic.  And I'm the one labelled fanatic.  Sheesh.
Stillness,  prayer, love and self-control are a four-horsed chariot bearing the intellect to Heaven. (Philokalia 2: p.308 - #24) - St. Thalassios

The proper activity of the intellect is to be attentive at every moment to the words of God.   (Philokalia 2: p. 308 - # 30) - St. Thalassios

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Re: What would you have said?
« Reply #36 on: July 21, 2011, 12:30:12 AM »
Well, I wouldn't have looked for Orthodox Christian books in an Evangelical bookstore to begin with.  You live and you learn.  Next time, order from oh say Conciliar press or something ORthodox lol

Offline orthonorm

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Re: What would you have said?
« Reply #37 on: July 21, 2011, 12:30:49 AM »
Really, the sarcasm is ironic.

This borders on a koan. True out of its context. Wrong within it.


Offline joasia

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Re: What would you have said?
« Reply #38 on: July 21, 2011, 01:11:48 AM »
Really, the sarcasm is ironic.

This borders on a koan. True out of its context. Wrong within it

In what way? Please explain.
Stillness,  prayer, love and self-control are a four-horsed chariot bearing the intellect to Heaven. (Philokalia 2: p.308 - #24) - St. Thalassios

The proper activity of the intellect is to be attentive at every moment to the words of God.   (Philokalia 2: p. 308 - # 30) - St. Thalassios

Offline orthonorm

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Re: What would you have said?
« Reply #39 on: July 21, 2011, 08:08:02 AM »
Really, the sarcasm is ironic.

This borders on a koan. True out of its context. Wrong within it

In what way? Please explain.

Sarcasm is a form of irony. So your statement is true.

However, the use of sarcasm, which is probably what you are referring to, throughout this thread (if sarcasm was used at all) is not ironic, unless people are being sarcastic in order to suggest not being sarcastic, again performative irony.

And who said you were a fanatic? 'Sides that word gets a bad rap.

You could've pulled off your statement perfectly though:

Wow, glad to see all the sarcasm coming from Christians around here.

Here you would be using sarcasm, thus it would be ironic. And you would be using sarcasm to comment on the fact that Christians ought not use sarcasm, thus making again a performative act of irony.

I would agree then that some of the the sarcasm in this thread is ironic due to your statement, but would then point out that Jesus uses irony and even sarcasm, so I wouldn't see why they are not appropriate forms of Christians rhetoric.

IOW, I've enjoyed having this dialog with myself. //:=|

« Last Edit: July 21, 2011, 08:10:25 AM by orthonorm »

Offline joasia

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Re: What would you have said?
« Reply #40 on: July 21, 2011, 07:53:07 PM »
Thanks for the explanation Sheldon. 
Stillness,  prayer, love and self-control are a four-horsed chariot bearing the intellect to Heaven. (Philokalia 2: p.308 - #24) - St. Thalassios

The proper activity of the intellect is to be attentive at every moment to the words of God.   (Philokalia 2: p. 308 - # 30) - St. Thalassios

Offline orthonorm

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Re: What would you have said?
« Reply #41 on: July 21, 2011, 07:55:42 PM »
Thanks for the explanation Sheldon. 

Now you have me at a loss. I won't google the fun out of it.