Topic: RC/EO pastoral response to Masturbation?

[Robb]

A wet dream is involuntary. You don't even know you're doing it. You're asleep. And well, the other one......

primuspilus

But a wet dream involves subconscious thoughts and yes many times people wake up in the middle of them and don't (or simply can't) try to stop .  There is a whole school of thought which says that subconscious thought and desires should and can be controlled because they are products of our conscious desire for sin (I don't actually hold to that, but the theory does exist).

I take my priest advice that while masturbation is a disordered act and not a good thing to partake of, it still does not bar a person from reception of Communion.  Receiving frequently can actually lesson ones desire to commit this act.  I have recently found this to be true, I stood away from Communion for two years because of great confusion and desire not to make a sacrilegious reception of the Eucharist.  However when I started to receive again regularly not that long ago, I noticed that my passion and desire to commit this act actually declined.  I can't explain it other then it is the grace of God which is lessening my desire for this disordered habit, but it does seem to be true in my case.

[Cavaradossi]

A wet dream is involuntary. You don't even know you're doing it. You're asleep. And well, the other one......

primuspilus

But a wet dream involves subconscious thoughts and yes many times people wake up in the middle of them and don't (or simply can't) try to stop .  There is a whole school of thought which says that subconscious thought and desires should and can be controlled because they are products of our conscious desire for sin (I don't actually hold to that, but the theory does exist).

I take my priest advice that while masturbation is a disordered act and not a good thing to partake of, it still does not bar a person from reception of Communion.  Receiving frequently can actually lesson ones desire to commit this act.  I have recently found this to be true, I stood away from Communion for two years because of great confusion and desire not to make a sacrilegious reception of the Eucharist.  However when I started to receive again regularly not that long ago, I noticed that my passion and desire to commit this act actually declined.  I can't explain it other then it is the grace of God which is lessening my desire for this disordered habit, but it does seem to be true in my case.

May God continue to bless you with His grace!

[Punch]

How is it a sin? Its something that happens naturally like peeing the bed. Your body vacates the stuff all on its own.

How can you say it's natural? Nature is affected by sin and death, so we have no idea what "natural" bodily functions are. "It's natural" is the same argument the homosexual crowd uses. It may be natural to any of us, but that does not make it objectively natural.

I do not think that you can equate masturbation and homosexuality.  My guess is that something greater than 99% of all males masturbate.  I don't think that there are anywhere near that number riding on the Hershey Highway.  Using this theory, one would seem far more "natural" than the other. 

On the other hand, tying masturbation to homosexuality does bring the potential sinfulness of the former more into focus, particularly for those like me that consider homosexuality a sinful way of life.  If there is nothing sinful about ejaculation, why would it make a difference where it is done (other than the clear scriptural prohibitions against adultery, fornication, and one sex laying with the same sex as they would with another).  However, the afore mentioned prohibitions usually have some deeper societal reason than simply “don’t do it there”.  I could see where masturbation would have the same societal prohibition if a person preferred masturbation to marital sex.  We also have the scriptural command to give our spouses their due.  I am not sure the same would apply to a single person, or someone “taking care of a problem” when the spouse is not able (or for that matter, when they think enough of their spouse NOT to use them as a sex toy).  In the latter case, it would be nice if the wife said “I’m sorry dear, but I am really tired tonight” you could reply “No problem honey, I can take care of this myself”.  As it is, however, it seems that the only acceptable way to have sex is within the context of marital copulation.  And yet, there are even those who would say that is “dirty”, particularly if either of the partners actually enjoyed it.

[Punch]

That is certainly something to keep in mind.  It would be doubtful that God would lessen the desire for something that is OK to do.  So, your experience is useful in arriving at a satisfactory conclusion to this question.

A wet dream is involuntary. You don't even know you're doing it. You're asleep. And well, the other one......

primuspilus

But a wet dream involves subconscious thoughts and yes many times people wake up in the middle of them and don't (or simply can't) try to stop .  There is a whole school of thought which says that subconscious thought and desires should and can be controlled because they are products of our conscious desire for sin (I don't actually hold to that, but the theory does exist).

I take my priest advice that while masturbation is a disordered act and not a good thing to partake of, it still does not bar a person from reception of Communion.  Receiving frequently can actually lesson ones desire to commit this act.  I have recently found this to be true, I stood away from Communion for two years because of great confusion and desire not to make a sacrilegious reception of the Eucharist.  However when I started to receive again regularly not that long ago, I noticed that my passion and desire to commit this act actually declined.  I can't explain it other then it is the grace of God which is lessening my desire for this disordered habit, but it does seem to be true in my case.

[Robb]

How is it a sin? Its something that happens naturally like peeing the bed. Your body vacates the stuff all on its own.

How can you say it's natural? Nature is affected by sin and death, so we have no idea what "natural" bodily functions are. "It's natural" is the same argument the homosexual crowd uses. It may be natural to any of us, but that does not make it objectively natural.

I do not think that you can equate masturbation and homosexuality.  My guess is that something greater than 99% of all males masturbate.  I don't think that there are anywhere near that number riding on the Hershey Highway.  Using this theory, one would seem far more "natural" than the other. 

On the other hand, tying masturbation to homosexuality does bring the potential sinfulness of the former more into focus, particularly for those like me that consider homosexuality a sinful way of life.  If there is nothing sinful about ejaculation, why would it make a difference where it is done (other than the clear scriptural prohibitions against adultery, fornication, and one sex laying with the same sex as they would with another).  However, the afore mentioned prohibitions usually have some deeper societal reason than simply “don’t do it there”.  I could see where masturbation would have the same societal prohibition if a person preferred masturbation to marital sex.  We also have the scriptural command to give our spouses their due.  I am not sure the same would apply to a single person, or someone “taking care of a problem” when the spouse is not able (or for that matter, when they think enough of their spouse NOT to use them as a sex toy).  In the latter case, it would be nice if the wife said “I’m sorry dear, but I am really tired tonight” you could reply “No problem honey, I can take care of this myself”.  As it is, however, it seems that the only acceptable way to have sex is within the context of marital copulation.  And yet, there are even those who would say that is “dirty”, particularly if either of the partners actually enjoyed it.

Yeah, If I was married then I don't think this issue would be coming up at all (Although I do have friends who are what they would call "stable" relation ships who boast about masturbating two times a day on top of the relations they have).  So I guess that marriage, while helpful is not a cure all for this.

[orthonorm]

I don't think that there are anywhere near that number riding on the Hershey Highway.

First of all: Wow.

Second: You do realize many heterosexual folks engage in anal sex.

Third: You might be surprised at how many homosexuals do not engage in anal sex.

[elijahmaria]

I don't think that there are anywhere near that number riding on the Hershey Highway.

First of all: Wow.

Second: You do realize many heterosexual folks engage in anal sex.

Third: You might be surprised at how many homosexuals do not engage in anal sex.

Talking about the Holy Fathers is registered here among Orthodox contributors as too constraining...

I guess this is much more fun to discuss...

[orthonorm]

I don't think that there are anywhere near that number riding on the Hershey Highway.

First of all: Wow.

Second: You do realize many heterosexual folks engage in anal sex.

Third: You might be surprised at how many homosexuals do not engage in anal sex.

Talking about the Holy Fathers is registered here among Orthodox contributors as too constraining...

I guess this is much more fun to discuss...

I dunno about fun, but non-clever, denigrating language about a group of people makes me sick, even when it is directed at RCs. //:=|

[elijahmaria]

I don't think that there are anywhere near that number riding on the Hershey Highway.

First of all: Wow.

Second: You do realize many heterosexual folks engage in anal sex.

Third: You might be surprised at how many homosexuals do not engage in anal sex.

Talking about the Holy Fathers is registered here among Orthodox contributors as too constraining...

I guess this is much more fun to discuss...

I dunno about fun, but non-clever, denigrating language about a group of people makes me sick, even when it is directed at RCs. //:=|

I did not mean that to appear as though I was speaking to you and ONLY you ...I share your frustrations and often share in yielding to the temptation to respond.

M.

[akimori makoto]

Wow, when I read the offensive term I imagined a paved pathway made of chocolate and candy.

I need to get out more.

[orthonorm]

Wow, when I read the offensive term I imagined a paved pathway made of chocolate and candy.

I need to get out more.

Vile glutton! //:=|

[Peter J]

I dunno about fun, but non-clever, denigrating language about a group of people makes me sick, even when it is directed at RCs. //:=|

Yeah, there should be a rule against non-clever denigrating language.

[orthonorm]

I dunno about fun, but non-clever, denigrating language about a group of people makes me sick, even when it is directed at RCs. //:=|

Yeah, there should be a rule against non-clever denigrating language.

Cleverness and humor go a long way in my book. Whatever book that is.

[Shiny]

Hershey Highway...I just about died laughing at that.

[Wyatt]

It's interesting how when someone shows disdain for homosexuality it is always directed toward male homosexuality. The lesbians get far less attacks it seems.

[orthonorm]

It's interesting how when someone shows disdain for homosexuality it is always directed toward male homosexuality. The lesbians get far less attacks it seems.

Heterosexual men are less threatened by it and also titillated by it (by oh if they knew the majority of the truth).

[Wyatt]

It's interesting how when someone shows disdain for homosexuality it is always directed toward male homosexuality. The lesbians get far less attacks it seems.

Heterosexual men are less threatened by it and also titillated by it (by oh if they knew the majority of the truth).

The truth is obvious. Real lesbians are hardly like the skinny young harlots struttin' around on the Girls Gone Wild commercials. 

[Justin Kissel]

It's interesting how when someone shows disdain for homosexuality it is always directed toward male homosexuality. The lesbians get far less attacks it seems.

Heterosexual men are less threatened by it and also titillated by it (by oh if they knew the majority of the truth).

The truth is obvious. Real lesbians are hardly like the skinny young harlots struttin' around on the Girls Gone Wild commercials. 

True. But they still have a certain charm.

[Wyatt]

It's interesting how when someone shows disdain for homosexuality it is always directed toward male homosexuality. The lesbians get far less attacks it seems.

Heterosexual men are less threatened by it and also titillated by it (by oh if they knew the majority of the truth).

The truth is obvious. Real lesbians are hardly like the skinny young harlots struttin' around on the Girls Gone Wild commercials. 

True. But they still have a certain charm.

I suppose you have a point...though I am hesitant to praise succubi.

[Punch]

Yes, I am well aware of those facts.  This is not the only forum that I frequent, and I have seen some things in my life that I wish could be unseen.  I just get tired of typing "homosexual", and I detest using the word "gay".  The particular phrase in question seems nicer than some of the other terms that I have heard.  And as to the anal issue; I am far more kindly disposed to the homosexuals than I am to the holier than thou evangelicals who, if they has as much poking out of them as they had in them would look like porcupines, yet think they are still virgins because they never had vaginal sex.  And not just the girls, but the guys that don't think that oral and anal count as "real sex", so they are not committing fornication.  That is one of the reasons that I think these kind of discussions are useful since they, hopefully, get to the root (no pun intended) of the issue, which is lust, and not just some contrived legal definition of the word "sex". 

I don't think that there are anywhere near that number riding on the Hershey Highway.

First of all: Wow.

Second: You do realize many heterosexual folks engage in anal sex.

Third: You might be surprised at how many homosexuals do not engage in anal sex.

[Punch]

It's interesting how when someone shows disdain for homosexuality it is always directed toward male homosexuality. The lesbians get far less attacks it seems.

Well, some of us are simply lesbians in a man's body. 

[Justin Kissel]

It's interesting how when someone shows disdain for homosexuality it is always directed toward male homosexuality. The lesbians get far less attacks it seems.

Well, some of us are simply lesbians in a man's body. 

In this day and age there are solutions for someone with that issue 

[bogdan]

I do not think that you can equate masturbation and homosexuality.  My guess is that something greater than 99% of all males masturbate.

That doesn't matter. 99% of males lie, commit adultery in their hearts, etc. too. Just because lots of people commit the same sin, does not mitigate its sinfulness.

And to homosexual people, it is as natural to lust after a fellow male or fellow female as it is for hetrosexual people to lust after the opposite sex. It does not matter how natural it is to other people, because naturalness is beside the point.

All sin is 100% unnatural when we compare ourselves to the innocence of prelapsarian Adam and Eve. Regaining that sinless innocence is our first step to theosis. "More" or "less" means nothing. It's not, so the degree only indicates the amount of struggle it will take to overcome.

In the latter case, it would be nice if the wife said “I’m sorry dear, but I am really tired tonight” you could reply “No problem honey, I can take care of this myself”.

Perhaps, but even that is not in line with the basic asceticism of Christianity. We don't just go and fulfill every urge that comes along. If a husband is feeling aroused one night but his wife is not interested, then the husband has to live with it—not go and "take care of it" himself. Just like we don't go and eat every time we want to, or go and flirt with every attractive person we see.

As it is, however, it seems that the only acceptable way to have sex is within the context of marital copulation.

Correct. All other forms of sex, including autosexual activity like masturbation, are missing the mark of why sexuality exists. 

And yet, there are even those who would say that is “dirty”, particularly if either of the partners actually enjoyed it.

Because whether we enjoy something it is not the standard we hold ourselves to.

[orthonorm]

I do not think that you can equate masturbation and homosexuality.  My guess is that something greater than 99% of all males masturbate.

That doesn't matter. 99% of males lie, commit adultery in their hearts, etc. too. Just because lots of people commit the same sin, does not mitigate its sinfulness.

And to homosexual people, it is as natural to lust after a fellow male or fellow female as it is for hetrosexual people to lust after the opposite sex. It does not matter how natural it is to other people, because naturalness is beside the point.

All sin is 100% unnatural when we compare ourselves to the innocence of prelapsarian Adam and Eve. Regaining that sinless innocence is our first step to theosis. "More" or "less" means nothing. It's not, so the degree only indicates the amount of struggle it will take to overcome.

In the latter case, it would be nice if the wife said “I’m sorry dear, but I am really tired tonight” you could reply “No problem honey, I can take care of this myself”.

Perhaps, but even that is not in line with the basic asceticism of Christianity. We don't just go and fulfill every urge that comes along. If a husband is feeling aroused one night but his wife is not interested, then the husband has to live with it—not go and "take care of it" himself. Just like we don't go and eat every time we want to, or go and flirt with every attractive person we see.

As it is, however, it seems that the only acceptable way to have sex is within the context of marital copulation.

Correct. All other forms of sex, including autosexual activity like masturbation, are missing the mark of why sexuality exists. 

And yet, there are even those who would say that is “dirty”, particularly if either of the partners actually enjoyed it.

Because whether we enjoy something it is not the standard we hold ourselves to.

One of the nice things about this board, you can occasionally realize you ain't alone.

 

[Punch]

Perhaps, but even that is not in line with the basic asceticism of Christianity. We don't just go and fulfill every urge that comes along. If a husband is feeling aroused one night but his wife is not interested, then the husband has to live with it—not go and "take care of it" himself. Just like we don't go and eat every time we want to, or go and flirt with every attractive person we see.

 

Well really?  That is your opinion.  One could easily say that there is no excuse for the wife “not being interested” since there is a clear command for the wife (and this also applies to the husband) not to deny the husband in these matters.  So, it would seem that scripturally it would be more acceptable to tell her “sorry, but it’s your duty” than to tell her “I’ll take care of it myself”.  BTW – I do eat when I am hungry.  I refrain from flirting because I read that is also forbidden for us married fellows.

[orthonorm]

Perhaps, but even that is not in line with the basic asceticism of Christianity. We don't just go and fulfill every urge that comes along. If a husband is feeling aroused one night but his wife is not interested, then the husband has to live with it—not go and "take care of it" himself. Just like we don't go and eat every time we want to, or go and flirt with every attractive person we see.

 

Well really?  That is your opinion.  One could easily say that there is no excuse for the wife “not being interested” since there is a clear command for the wife (and this also applies to the husband) not to deny the husband in these matters.  So, it would seem that scripturally it would be more acceptable to tell her “sorry, but it’s your duty” than to tell her “I’ll take care of it myself”.  BTW – I do eat when I am hungry.  I refrain from flirting because I read that is also forbidden for us married fellows.

The is no variation of the fuehrer that could display the degree of disappointment here.

So we are back to plucking out eyes again . . .

Fast much?

[Robb]

Thanks again for everyone advice.  Again I'm going o continue to listen to the advice of my confessor on the matter.  I thank all those who comments and am happy that you've helped ease my already troubled, OCD inflicted consciouses on this.  It's important for us to trust the pastoral mercy and compassion that our confessors impart to us.  Mine has been a priest for over fifty years (And is still Sharp as a tack).  He's certainly "heard it all" in his day and I trust that his advice to me is sound (It seems to be helping me greatly). 

[elijahmaria]

Thanks again for everyone advice.  Again I'm going o continue to listen to the advice of my confessor on the matter.  I thank all those who comments and am happy that you've helped ease my already troubled, OCD inflicted consciouses on this.  It's important for us to trust the pastoral mercy and compassion that our confessors impart to us.  Mine has been a priest for over fifty years (And is still Sharp as a tack).  He's certainly "heard it all" in his day and I trust that his advice to me is sound (It seems to be helping me greatly). 

There ya go!!...I am very happy you have someone you trust and I trust you when you say his own thinking is sound!!

Mary

[ialmisry]

If a husband is feeling aroused one night but his wife is not interested, then the husband has to live with it—not go and "take care of it" himself.

How about his wife taking care of it?

Punch has the right idea on this as well:

We also have the scriptural command to give our spouses their due.  I am not sure the same would apply to a single person, or someone “taking care of a problem” when the spouse is not able (or for that matter, when they think enough of their spouse NOT to use them as a sex toy). 

[Wyatt]

What happens if the wife doesn't take care of it? How far are we permitted to go to avoid letting our spouse commit such a grievous sin. May we resort to physical correction? What about those of us who are single? We just have to sit around and suffer, huh?

[ialmisry]

What happens if the wife doesn't take care of it? How far are we permitted to go to avoid letting our spouse commit such a grievous sin. May we resort to physical correction?

LOL. Physical correction as in giving in or castration?

[Aindriú]

What happens if the wife doesn't take care of it? How far are we permitted to go to avoid letting our spouse commit such a grievous sin. May we resort to physical correction?

LOL. Physical correction as in giving in or castration?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ym0hZG-zNOk

[akimori makoto]

If a husband is feeling aroused one night but his wife is not interested, then the husband has to live with it—not go and "take care of it" himself.

How about his wife taking care of it?

Punch has the right idea on this as well:

We also have the scriptural command to give our spouses their due.  I am not sure the same would apply to a single person, or someone “taking care of a problem” when the spouse is not able (or for that matter, when they think enough of their spouse NOT to use them as a sex toy).

Even from a secular perspective, I cannot understand why sex is seen to be the one activity within the marriage which is exempt from the status of "duty".

Imagine this scenario:

*Wife comes home from a long day of work to husband who arrived home a few hours earlier*

Wife: Urgh, I had the worst day today -- I need to vent.
Husband: Not today, honey, I have a headache.

No-one would tolerate this lack of regard for the needs and desires of the other in a non-bedroom context, yet somehow, according to the logic of the world, the only time sex can happen in a marriage is when both partners have an absolutely perfectly aligned desire for it.

As usual, the wisdom of the scripture is timeless.

[Justin Kissel]

I never understood the "I don't feel like it" excuse. Most people try to imitate logs as much as possible anyway, who would notice the difference?  Lay down, let your significant other go at it, get up, move on.

[Wyatt]

What happens if the wife doesn't take care of it? How far are we permitted to go to avoid letting our spouse commit such a grievous sin. May we resort to physical correction?

LOL. Physical correction as in giving in or castration?

I was thinking along the lines of a beating

[biro]

Most people try to imitate logs as much as possible anyway, who would notice the difference?  Lay down, let your significant other go at it, get up, move on.

You just make it sound so wonderful.   

[Aindriú]

Most people try to imitate logs as much as possible anyway, who would notice the difference?  Lay down, let your significant other go at it, get up, move on.

You just make it sound so wonderful.   

I laughed when I read his, but you really made me LOL.

[ialmisry]

What happens if the wife doesn't take care of it? How far are we permitted to go to avoid letting our spouse commit such a grievous sin. May we resort to physical correction?

LOL. Physical correction as in giving in or castration?

I was thinking along the lines of a beating

With whom beating what?

[orthonorm]

Oh this thread makes me want to get serious about my column for men.

Sheesh. All this stuff ain't that hard . . . well . . . you get my point . . .

[biro]

Why not club her and drag her off to the cave?   

[Aindriú]

Oh this thread makes me want to get serious about my column for men.

Sheesh. All this stuff ain't that hard . . . well . . . you get my point . . .

This whole post was one big 'so to speak'.

[Justin Kissel]

Most people try to imitate logs as much as possible anyway, who would notice the difference?   Lay down, let your significant other go at it, get up, move on.

You just make it sound so wonderful.    

Part of the reason for the "imitating logs" part might be that she was often sleeping when I started. Too much information?    

[Aindriú]

Most people try to imitate logs as much as possible anyway, who would notice the difference?   Lay down, let your significant other go at it, get up, move on.

You just make it sound so wonderful.    

Part of the reason for the "imitating logs" part might be that she was often sleeping when I started. Too much information?    

Don't exaggerate. She slept the whole time. 

[Justin Kissel]

Don't exaggerate. She slept the whole time. 

You, sir, have crossed the line, and I demand satisfaction! 

[Aindriú]

Don't exaggerate. She slept the whole time. 

You, sir, have crossed the line, and I demand satisfaction! 

My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die.