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Author Topic: RC/EO pastoral response to Masturbation?  (Read 12271 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #90 on: July 20, 2011, 06:00:02 PM »

A wet dream is involuntary. You don't even know you're doing it. You're asleep. And well, the other one......

primuspilus

But a wet dream involves subconscious thoughts and yes many times people wake up in the middle of them and don't (or simply can't) try to stop .  There is a whole school of thought which says that subconscious thought and desires should and can be controlled because they are products of our conscious desire for sin (I don't actually hold to that, but the theory does exist).

I take my priest advice that while masturbation is a disordered act and not a good thing to partake of, it still does not bar a person from reception of Communion.  Receiving frequently can actually lesson ones desire to commit this act.  I have recently found this to be true, I stood away from Communion for two years because of great confusion and desire not to make a sacrilegious reception of the Eucharist.  However when I started to receive again regularly not that long ago, I noticed that my passion and desire to commit this act actually declined.  I can't explain it other then it is the grace of God which is lessening my desire for this disordered habit, but it does seem to be true in my case.

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« Reply #91 on: July 20, 2011, 06:13:45 PM »

A wet dream is involuntary. You don't even know you're doing it. You're asleep. And well, the other one......

primuspilus

But a wet dream involves subconscious thoughts and yes many times people wake up in the middle of them and don't (or simply can't) try to stop .  There is a whole school of thought which says that subconscious thought and desires should and can be controlled because they are products of our conscious desire for sin (I don't actually hold to that, but the theory does exist).

I take my priest advice that while masturbation is a disordered act and not a good thing to partake of, it still does not bar a person from reception of Communion.  Receiving frequently can actually lesson ones desire to commit this act.  I have recently found this to be true, I stood away from Communion for two years because of great confusion and desire not to make a sacrilegious reception of the Eucharist.  However when I started to receive again regularly not that long ago, I noticed that my passion and desire to commit this act actually declined.  I can't explain it other then it is the grace of God which is lessening my desire for this disordered habit, but it does seem to be true in my case.



May God continue to bless you with His grace!
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« Reply #92 on: July 20, 2011, 06:16:18 PM »

How is it a sin? Its something that happens naturally like peeing the bed. Your body vacates the stuff all on its own.

How can you say it's natural? Nature is affected by sin and death, so we have no idea what "natural" bodily functions are. "It's natural" is the same argument the homosexual crowd uses. It may be natural to any of us, but that does not make it objectively natural.


I do not think that you can equate masturbation and homosexuality.  My guess is that something greater than 99% of all males masturbate.  I don't think that there are anywhere near that number riding on the Hershey Highway.  Using this theory, one would seem far more "natural" than the other. 

On the other hand, tying masturbation to homosexuality does bring the potential sinfulness of the former more into focus, particularly for those like me that consider homosexuality a sinful way of life.  If there is nothing sinful about ejaculation, why would it make a difference where it is done (other than the clear scriptural prohibitions against adultery, fornication, and one sex laying with the same sex as they would with another).  However, the afore mentioned prohibitions usually have some deeper societal reason than simply “don’t do it there”.  I could see where masturbation would have the same societal prohibition if a person preferred masturbation to marital sex.  We also have the scriptural command to give our spouses their due.  I am not sure the same would apply to a single person, or someone “taking care of a problem” when the spouse is not able (or for that matter, when they think enough of their spouse NOT to use them as a sex toy).  In the latter case, it would be nice if the wife said “I’m sorry dear, but I am really tired tonight” you could reply “No problem honey, I can take care of this myself”.  As it is, however, it seems that the only acceptable way to have sex is within the context of marital copulation.  And yet, there are even those who would say that is “dirty”, particularly if either of the partners actually enjoyed it.
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« Reply #93 on: July 20, 2011, 06:19:08 PM »

That is certainly something to keep in mind.  It would be doubtful that God would lessen the desire for something that is OK to do.  So, your experience is useful in arriving at a satisfactory conclusion to this question.

A wet dream is involuntary. You don't even know you're doing it. You're asleep. And well, the other one......

primuspilus

But a wet dream involves subconscious thoughts and yes many times people wake up in the middle of them and don't (or simply can't) try to stop .  There is a whole school of thought which says that subconscious thought and desires should and can be controlled because they are products of our conscious desire for sin (I don't actually hold to that, but the theory does exist).

I take my priest advice that while masturbation is a disordered act and not a good thing to partake of, it still does not bar a person from reception of Communion.  Receiving frequently can actually lesson ones desire to commit this act.  I have recently found this to be true, I stood away from Communion for two years because of great confusion and desire not to make a sacrilegious reception of the Eucharist.  However when I started to receive again regularly not that long ago, I noticed that my passion and desire to commit this act actually declined.  I can't explain it other then it is the grace of God which is lessening my desire for this disordered habit, but it does seem to be true in my case.


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« Reply #94 on: July 20, 2011, 06:36:06 PM »

How is it a sin? Its something that happens naturally like peeing the bed. Your body vacates the stuff all on its own.

How can you say it's natural? Nature is affected by sin and death, so we have no idea what "natural" bodily functions are. "It's natural" is the same argument the homosexual crowd uses. It may be natural to any of us, but that does not make it objectively natural.


I do not think that you can equate masturbation and homosexuality.  My guess is that something greater than 99% of all males masturbate.  I don't think that there are anywhere near that number riding on the Hershey Highway.  Using this theory, one would seem far more "natural" than the other. 

On the other hand, tying masturbation to homosexuality does bring the potential sinfulness of the former more into focus, particularly for those like me that consider homosexuality a sinful way of life.  If there is nothing sinful about ejaculation, why would it make a difference where it is done (other than the clear scriptural prohibitions against adultery, fornication, and one sex laying with the same sex as they would with another).  However, the afore mentioned prohibitions usually have some deeper societal reason than simply “don’t do it there”.  I could see where masturbation would have the same societal prohibition if a person preferred masturbation to marital sex.  We also have the scriptural command to give our spouses their due.  I am not sure the same would apply to a single person, or someone “taking care of a problem” when the spouse is not able (or for that matter, when they think enough of their spouse NOT to use them as a sex toy).  In the latter case, it would be nice if the wife said “I’m sorry dear, but I am really tired tonight” you could reply “No problem honey, I can take care of this myself”.  As it is, however, it seems that the only acceptable way to have sex is within the context of marital copulation.  And yet, there are even those who would say that is “dirty”, particularly if either of the partners actually enjoyed it.


Yeah, If I was married then I don't think this issue would be coming up at all (Although I do have friends who are what they would call "stable" relation ships who boast about masturbating two times a day on top of the relations they have).  So I guess that marriage, while helpful is not a cure all for this.
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« Reply #95 on: July 20, 2011, 10:40:38 PM »

I don't think that there are anywhere near that number riding on the Hershey Highway.

First of all: Wow.

Second: You do realize many heterosexual folks engage in anal sex.

Third: You might be surprised at how many homosexuals do not engage in anal sex.
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« Reply #96 on: July 20, 2011, 10:56:50 PM »

I don't think that there are anywhere near that number riding on the Hershey Highway.

First of all: Wow.

Second: You do realize many heterosexual folks engage in anal sex.

Third: You might be surprised at how many homosexuals do not engage in anal sex.

Talking about the Holy Fathers is registered here among Orthodox contributors as too constraining...

I guess this is much more fun to discuss...
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« Reply #97 on: July 20, 2011, 11:01:39 PM »

I don't think that there are anywhere near that number riding on the Hershey Highway.

First of all: Wow.

Second: You do realize many heterosexual folks engage in anal sex.

Third: You might be surprised at how many homosexuals do not engage in anal sex.

Talking about the Holy Fathers is registered here among Orthodox contributors as too constraining...

I guess this is much more fun to discuss...

I dunno about fun, but non-clever, denigrating language about a group of people makes me sick, even when it is directed at RCs. //:=|
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« Reply #98 on: July 20, 2011, 11:19:57 PM »

I don't think that there are anywhere near that number riding on the Hershey Highway.

First of all: Wow.

Second: You do realize many heterosexual folks engage in anal sex.

Third: You might be surprised at how many homosexuals do not engage in anal sex.

Talking about the Holy Fathers is registered here among Orthodox contributors as too constraining...

I guess this is much more fun to discuss...

I dunno about fun, but non-clever, denigrating language about a group of people makes me sick, even when it is directed at RCs. //:=|

I did not mean that to appear as though I was speaking to you and ONLY you ...I share your frustrations and often share in yielding to the temptation to respond.

M.
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« Reply #99 on: July 20, 2011, 11:22:46 PM »

Wow, when I read the offensive term I imagined a paved pathway made of chocolate and candy.

I need to get out more.
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« Reply #100 on: July 20, 2011, 11:49:36 PM »

Wow, when I read the offensive term I imagined a paved pathway made of chocolate and candy.

I need to get out more.

Vile glutton! //:=|
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« Reply #101 on: July 20, 2011, 11:50:42 PM »

I dunno about fun, but non-clever, denigrating language about a group of people makes me sick, even when it is directed at RCs. //:=|

Yeah, there should be a rule against non-clever denigrating language.
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« Reply #102 on: July 20, 2011, 11:52:38 PM »

I dunno about fun, but non-clever, denigrating language about a group of people makes me sick, even when it is directed at RCs. //:=|

Yeah, there should be a rule against non-clever denigrating language.

Cleverness and humor go a long way in my book. Whatever book that is.
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« Reply #103 on: July 20, 2011, 11:54:58 PM »

Hershey Highway...I just about died laughing at that.
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« Reply #104 on: July 21, 2011, 12:28:14 AM »

It's interesting how when someone shows disdain for homosexuality it is always directed toward male homosexuality. The lesbians get far less attacks it seems.
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« Reply #105 on: July 21, 2011, 12:33:20 AM »

It's interesting how when someone shows disdain for homosexuality it is always directed toward male homosexuality. The lesbians get far less attacks it seems.

Heterosexual men are less threatened by it and also titillated by it (by oh if they knew the majority of the truth).

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« Reply #106 on: July 21, 2011, 12:34:53 AM »

It's interesting how when someone shows disdain for homosexuality it is always directed toward male homosexuality. The lesbians get far less attacks it seems.

Heterosexual men are less threatened by it and also titillated by it (by oh if they knew the majority of the truth).
The truth is obvious. Real lesbians are hardly like the skinny young harlots struttin' around on the Girls Gone Wild commercials.  laugh
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« Reply #107 on: July 21, 2011, 12:37:14 AM »

It's interesting how when someone shows disdain for homosexuality it is always directed toward male homosexuality. The lesbians get far less attacks it seems.

Heterosexual men are less threatened by it and also titillated by it (by oh if they knew the majority of the truth).
The truth is obvious. Real lesbians are hardly like the skinny young harlots struttin' around on the Girls Gone Wild commercials.  laugh

True. But they still have a certain charm.
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« Reply #108 on: July 21, 2011, 12:49:28 AM »

It's interesting how when someone shows disdain for homosexuality it is always directed toward male homosexuality. The lesbians get far less attacks it seems.

Heterosexual men are less threatened by it and also titillated by it (by oh if they knew the majority of the truth).
The truth is obvious. Real lesbians are hardly like the skinny young harlots struttin' around on the Girls Gone Wild commercials.  laugh

True. But they still have a certain charm.
I suppose you have a point...though I am hesitant to praise succubi.
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« Reply #109 on: July 21, 2011, 01:00:00 PM »

Yes, I am well aware of those facts.  This is not the only forum that I frequent, and I have seen some things in my life that I wish could be unseen.  I just get tired of typing "homosexual", and I detest using the word "gay".  The particular phrase in question seems nicer than some of the other terms that I have heard.  And as to the anal issue; I am far more kindly disposed to the homosexuals than I am to the holier than thou evangelicals who, if they has as much poking out of them as they had in them would look like porcupines, yet think they are still virgins because they never had vaginal sex.  And not just the girls, but the guys that don't think that oral and anal count as "real sex", so they are not committing fornication.  That is one of the reasons that I think these kind of discussions are useful since they, hopefully, get to the root (no pun intended) of the issue, which is lust, and not just some contrived legal definition of the word "sex". 

I don't think that there are anywhere near that number riding on the Hershey Highway.

First of all: Wow.

Second: You do realize many heterosexual folks engage in anal sex.

Third: You might be surprised at how many homosexuals do not engage in anal sex.
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« Reply #110 on: July 21, 2011, 01:05:54 PM »

It's interesting how when someone shows disdain for homosexuality it is always directed toward male homosexuality. The lesbians get far less attacks it seems.

Well, some of us are simply lesbians in a man's body. 
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« Reply #111 on: July 21, 2011, 01:53:13 PM »

It's interesting how when someone shows disdain for homosexuality it is always directed toward male homosexuality. The lesbians get far less attacks it seems.

Well, some of us are simply lesbians in a man's body. 

In this day and age there are solutions for someone with that issue  Wink
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« Reply #112 on: July 21, 2011, 02:18:52 PM »

I do not think that you can equate masturbation and homosexuality.  My guess is that something greater than 99% of all males masturbate.

That doesn't matter. 99% of males lie, commit adultery in their hearts, etc. too. Just because lots of people commit the same sin, does not mitigate its sinfulness.

And to homosexual people, it is as natural to lust after a fellow male or fellow female as it is for hetrosexual people to lust after the opposite sex. It does not matter how natural it is to other people, because naturalness is beside the point.

All sin is 100% unnatural when we compare ourselves to the innocence of prelapsarian Adam and Eve. Regaining that sinless innocence is our first step to theosis. "More" or "less" means nothing. It's not, so the degree only indicates the amount of struggle it will take to overcome.

In the latter case, it would be nice if the wife said “I’m sorry dear, but I am really tired tonight” you could reply “No problem honey, I can take care of this myself”.

Perhaps, but even that is not in line with the basic asceticism of Christianity. We don't just go and fulfill every urge that comes along. If a husband is feeling aroused one night but his wife is not interested, then the husband has to live with it—not go and "take care of it" himself. Just like we don't go and eat every time we want to, or go and flirt with every attractive person we see.

As it is, however, it seems that the only acceptable way to have sex is within the context of marital copulation.

Correct. All other forms of sex, including autosexual activity like masturbation, are missing the mark of why sexuality exists. 

And yet, there are even those who would say that is “dirty”, particularly if either of the partners actually enjoyed it.

Because whether we enjoy something it is not the standard we hold ourselves to.
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« Reply #113 on: July 21, 2011, 02:36:08 PM »

I do not think that you can equate masturbation and homosexuality.  My guess is that something greater than 99% of all males masturbate.

That doesn't matter. 99% of males lie, commit adultery in their hearts, etc. too. Just because lots of people commit the same sin, does not mitigate its sinfulness.

And to homosexual people, it is as natural to lust after a fellow male or fellow female as it is for hetrosexual people to lust after the opposite sex. It does not matter how natural it is to other people, because naturalness is beside the point.

All sin is 100% unnatural when we compare ourselves to the innocence of prelapsarian Adam and Eve. Regaining that sinless innocence is our first step to theosis. "More" or "less" means nothing. It's not, so the degree only indicates the amount of struggle it will take to overcome.

In the latter case, it would be nice if the wife said “I’m sorry dear, but I am really tired tonight” you could reply “No problem honey, I can take care of this myself”.

Perhaps, but even that is not in line with the basic asceticism of Christianity. We don't just go and fulfill every urge that comes along. If a husband is feeling aroused one night but his wife is not interested, then the husband has to live with it—not go and "take care of it" himself. Just like we don't go and eat every time we want to, or go and flirt with every attractive person we see.

As it is, however, it seems that the only acceptable way to have sex is within the context of marital copulation.

Correct. All other forms of sex, including autosexual activity like masturbation, are missing the mark of why sexuality exists. 

And yet, there are even those who would say that is “dirty”, particularly if either of the partners actually enjoyed it.

Because whether we enjoy something it is not the standard we hold ourselves to.

One of the nice things about this board, you can occasionally realize you ain't alone.

 
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« Reply #114 on: July 21, 2011, 02:38:50 PM »


Perhaps, but even that is not in line with the basic asceticism of Christianity. We don't just go and fulfill every urge that comes along. If a husband is feeling aroused one night but his wife is not interested, then the husband has to live with it—not go and "take care of it" himself. Just like we don't go and eat every time we want to, or go and flirt with every attractive person we see.

 

Well really?  That is your opinion.  One could easily say that there is no excuse for the wife “not being interested” since there is a clear command for the wife (and this also applies to the husband) not to deny the husband in these matters.  So, it would seem that scripturally it would be more acceptable to tell her “sorry, but it’s your duty” than to tell her “I’ll take care of it myself”.  BTW – I do eat when I am hungry.  I refrain from flirting because I read that is also forbidden for us married fellows.
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« Reply #115 on: July 21, 2011, 02:48:38 PM »


Perhaps, but even that is not in line with the basic asceticism of Christianity. We don't just go and fulfill every urge that comes along. If a husband is feeling aroused one night but his wife is not interested, then the husband has to live with it—not go and "take care of it" himself. Just like we don't go and eat every time we want to, or go and flirt with every attractive person we see.

 

Well really?  That is your opinion.  One could easily say that there is no excuse for the wife “not being interested” since there is a clear command for the wife (and this also applies to the husband) not to deny the husband in these matters.  So, it would seem that scripturally it would be more acceptable to tell her “sorry, but it’s your duty” than to tell her “I’ll take care of it myself”.  BTW – I do eat when I am hungry.  I refrain from flirting because I read that is also forbidden for us married fellows.


The is no variation of the fuehrer that could display the degree of disappointment here.

So we are back to plucking out eyes again . . .

Fast much?
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« Reply #116 on: July 21, 2011, 05:52:20 PM »

Thanks again for everyone advice.  Again I'm going o continue to listen to the advice of my confessor on the matter.  I thank all those who comments and am happy that you've helped ease my already troubled, OCD inflicted consciouses on this.  It's important for us to trust the pastoral mercy and compassion that our confessors impart to us.  Mine has been a priest for over fifty years (And is still Sharp as a tack).  He's certainly "heard it all" in his day and I trust that his advice to me is sound (It seems to be helping me greatly). 
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« Reply #117 on: July 21, 2011, 05:54:58 PM »

Thanks again for everyone advice.  Again I'm going o continue to listen to the advice of my confessor on the matter.  I thank all those who comments and am happy that you've helped ease my already troubled, OCD inflicted consciouses on this.  It's important for us to trust the pastoral mercy and compassion that our confessors impart to us.  Mine has been a priest for over fifty years (And is still Sharp as a tack).  He's certainly "heard it all" in his day and I trust that his advice to me is sound (It seems to be helping me greatly). 

There ya go!!...I am very happy you have someone you trust and I trust you when you say his own thinking is sound!!

Mary
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« Reply #118 on: July 21, 2011, 06:56:32 PM »

If a husband is feeling aroused one night but his wife is not interested, then the husband has to live with it—not go and "take care of it" himself.
How about his wife taking care of it?

Punch has the right idea on this as well:
We also have the scriptural command to give our spouses their due.  I am not sure the same would apply to a single person, or someone “taking care of a problem” when the spouse is not able (or for that matter, when they think enough of their spouse NOT to use them as a sex toy). 
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« Reply #119 on: July 21, 2011, 07:25:16 PM »

What happens if the wife doesn't take care of it? How far are we permitted to go to avoid letting our spouse commit such a grievous sin. May we resort to physical correction? What about those of us who are single? We just have to sit around and suffer, huh?
« Last Edit: July 21, 2011, 07:25:54 PM by Wyatt » Logged
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« Reply #120 on: July 21, 2011, 07:28:26 PM »

What happens if the wife doesn't take care of it? How far are we permitted to go to avoid letting our spouse commit such a grievous sin. May we resort to physical correction?
LOL. Physical correction as in giving in or castration?
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« Reply #121 on: July 21, 2011, 07:31:35 PM »

What happens if the wife doesn't take care of it? How far are we permitted to go to avoid letting our spouse commit such a grievous sin. May we resort to physical correction?
LOL. Physical correction as in giving in or castration?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ym0hZG-zNOk
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« Reply #122 on: July 21, 2011, 07:52:13 PM »

If a husband is feeling aroused one night but his wife is not interested, then the husband has to live with it—not go and "take care of it" himself.
How about his wife taking care of it?

Punch has the right idea on this as well:
We also have the scriptural command to give our spouses their due.  I am not sure the same would apply to a single person, or someone “taking care of a problem” when the spouse is not able (or for that matter, when they think enough of their spouse NOT to use them as a sex toy).

Even from a secular perspective, I cannot understand why sex is seen to be the one activity within the marriage which is exempt from the status of "duty".

Imagine this scenario:

*Wife comes home from a long day of work to husband who arrived home a few hours earlier*

Wife: Urgh, I had the worst day today -- I need to vent.
Husband: Not today, honey, I have a headache.

No-one would tolerate this lack of regard for the needs and desires of the other in a non-bedroom context, yet somehow, according to the logic of the world, the only time sex can happen in a marriage is when both partners have an absolutely perfectly aligned desire for it.

As usual, the wisdom of the scripture is timeless.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2011, 07:52:33 PM by akimori makoto » Logged

The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.
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« Reply #123 on: July 21, 2011, 08:06:19 PM »

I never understood the "I don't feel like it" excuse. Most people try to imitate logs as much as possible anyway, who would notice the difference?  Tongue Lay down, let your significant other go at it, get up, move on.
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« Reply #124 on: July 21, 2011, 08:06:45 PM »

What happens if the wife doesn't take care of it? How far are we permitted to go to avoid letting our spouse commit such a grievous sin. May we resort to physical correction?
LOL. Physical correction as in giving in or castration?
I was thinking along the lines of a beating Tongue
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« Reply #125 on: July 21, 2011, 08:12:28 PM »

Quote from: Asteriktos
Most people try to imitate logs as much as possible anyway, who would notice the difference?  Tongue Lay down, let your significant other go at it, get up, move on.

You just make it sound so wonderful.  Roll Eyes  Angry
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« Reply #126 on: July 21, 2011, 08:13:48 PM »

Quote from: Asteriktos
Most people try to imitate logs as much as possible anyway, who would notice the difference?  Tongue Lay down, let your significant other go at it, get up, move on.

You just make it sound so wonderful.  Roll Eyes  Angry

I laughed when I read his, but you really made me LOL.
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« Reply #127 on: July 21, 2011, 08:14:10 PM »

What happens if the wife doesn't take care of it? How far are we permitted to go to avoid letting our spouse commit such a grievous sin. May we resort to physical correction?
LOL. Physical correction as in giving in or castration?
I was thinking along the lines of a beating Tongue
With whom beating what? Tongue
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« Reply #128 on: July 21, 2011, 08:16:26 PM »

Oh this thread makes me want to get serious about my column for men.

Sheesh. All this stuff ain't that hard . . . well . . . you get my point . . .
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« Reply #129 on: July 21, 2011, 08:18:34 PM »

Why not club her and drag her off to the cave?   Roll Eyes
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« Reply #130 on: July 21, 2011, 08:19:10 PM »

Oh this thread makes me want to get serious about my column for men.

Sheesh. All this stuff ain't that hard . . . well . . . you get my point . . .

This whole post was one big 'so to speak'.
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« Reply #131 on: July 21, 2011, 08:22:15 PM »

Quote from: Asteriktos
Most people try to imitate logs as much as possible anyway, who would notice the difference?  Tongue Lay down, let your significant other go at it, get up, move on.

You just make it sound so wonderful.  Roll Eyes  Angry

Part of the reason for the "imitating logs" part might be that she was often sleeping when I started. Too much information?  Tongue  Grin
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« Reply #132 on: July 21, 2011, 08:28:05 PM »

Quote from: Asteriktos
Most people try to imitate logs as much as possible anyway, who would notice the difference?  Tongue Lay down, let your significant other go at it, get up, move on.

You just make it sound so wonderful.  Roll Eyes  Angry

Part of the reason for the "imitating logs" part might be that she was often sleeping when I started. Too much information?  Tongue  Grin

Don't exaggerate. She slept the whole time.  Cheesy Grin
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« Reply #133 on: July 21, 2011, 08:30:32 PM »

Don't exaggerate. She slept the whole time.  Cheesy Grin

You, sir, have crossed the line, and I demand satisfaction!  Cool
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« Reply #134 on: July 21, 2011, 08:34:35 PM »

Don't exaggerate. She slept the whole time.  Cheesy Grin

You, sir, have crossed the line, and I demand satisfaction!  Cool

My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die.
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