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Author Topic: RC/EO pastoral response to Masturbation?  (Read 11565 times) Average Rating: 0
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Wyatt
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« Reply #45 on: July 18, 2011, 12:50:32 PM »

The same goes for talking with peers...you can't say that no one will benefit from that.

I talked with peers for over 30 years as I sinned and felt guilty.   I talked incessantly.

When I shut up and chose to reorient my life in Christ, I no longer felt the need [nor did I have the time] for the constant chatter.

See what the fathers say about idle talk...and they are not just talking about gossip.


So then you don't think anything like grief support groups have any merit?
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« Reply #46 on: July 18, 2011, 12:59:23 PM »

So now you just let your fingers do your talking for you. 

The same goes for talking with peers...you can't say that no one will benefit from that.

I talked with peers for over 30 years as I sinned and felt guilty.   I talked incessantly.

When I shut up and chose to reorient my life in Christ, I no longer felt the need [nor did I have the time] for the constant chatter.

See what the fathers say about idle talk...and they are not just talking about gossip.


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« Reply #47 on: July 18, 2011, 01:00:50 PM »

The same goes for talking with peers...you can't say that no one will benefit from that.

I talked with peers for over 30 years as I sinned and felt guilty.   I talked incessantly.

When I shut up and chose to reorient my life in Christ, I no longer felt the need [nor did I have the time] for the constant chatter.

See what the fathers say about idle talk...and they are not just talking about gossip.


So then you don't think anything like grief support groups have any merit?

Stay on target, Wyatt.

Is grief a neuroses?  

I am speaking of neuroses that can also be sins.

I am not aiming at every possible emotional response.

M.
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« Reply #48 on: July 18, 2011, 01:03:04 PM »

So now you just let your fingers do your talking for you. 

Sure.  Let's negate what I have said here by taking it to its extreme.  Predictable.

MOM!!!...Stop SCREAMING at me!!...

<smile>...o-kay
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« Reply #49 on: July 18, 2011, 01:05:25 PM »

So now you just let your fingers do your talking for you. 

Sure.  Let's negate what I have said here by taking it to its extreme.  Predictable.

MOM!!!...Stop SCREAMING at me!!...

<smile>...o-kay

No, I just figured since you are responsible for 25% of the posts on this thread, you didn't learn as much about keeping quiet as you thought.  Either that, or you don't think typing counts as talking.
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« Reply #50 on: July 18, 2011, 01:12:43 PM »

So now you just let your fingers do your talking for you. 

Sure.  Let's negate what I have said here by taking it to its extreme.  Predictable.

MOM!!!...Stop SCREAMING at me!!...

<smile>...o-kay

No, I just figured since you are responsible for 25% of the posts on this thread, you didn't learn as much about keeping quiet as you thought.  Either that, or you don't think typing counts as talking.

We are all charged with finding a way of discerning whether or not what we do is inordinate.   Silence is a great virtue but it can also be deadly.

Many of the things we are talking about here must be judged in terms of whether or not our behaviors are inordinate...out of the good order of sanctity and virtue and blessing.

You seem to have judged me.  Is it because you have great caring for me or do you hope to put me in what you think is my place?
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« Reply #51 on: July 18, 2011, 01:14:44 PM »

The same goes for talking with peers...you can't say that no one will benefit from that.

I talked with peers for over 30 years as I sinned and felt guilty.   I talked incessantly.

When I shut up and chose to reorient my life in Christ, I no longer felt the need [nor did I have the time] for the constant chatter.

See what the fathers say about idle talk...and they are not just talking about gossip.


So then you don't think anything like grief support groups have any merit?

Stay on target, Wyatt.

Is grief a neuroses?  

I am speaking of neuroses that can also be sins.

I am not aiming at every possible emotional response.

M.
Grief can lead to neurosis. Neurosis can worsen grief. Okay, to be more specific and to relate more clearly to the subject at hand, let me ask this: do you think that all support groups are just "idle talk"?
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Peter J
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« Reply #52 on: July 18, 2011, 01:20:07 PM »

The same goes for talking with peers...you can't say that no one will benefit from that.

I talked with peers for over 30 years as I sinned and felt guilty.   I talked incessantly.

When I shut up and chose to reorient my life in Christ, I no longer felt the need [nor did I have the time] for the constant chatter.

See what the fathers say about idle talk...and they are not just talking about gossip.

I'm a little confused here. What difference does it make whether "chatter" is verbal or typed?
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« Reply #53 on: July 18, 2011, 01:55:29 PM »

The same goes for talking with peers...you can't say that no one will benefit from that.

I talked with peers for over 30 years as I sinned and felt guilty.   I talked incessantly.

When I shut up and chose to reorient my life in Christ, I no longer felt the need [nor did I have the time] for the constant chatter.

See what the fathers say about idle talk...and they are not just talking about gossip.

I'm a little confused here. What difference does it make whether "chatter" is verbal or typed?

I am not aware that there is much of a difference though the written word has different characteristics.

Are you joining the boys who think I should shut up?  Smiley

I don't really care how many of you miss what I've said or reject it.  I've pointed to some pretty solid material in the Fathers on lust and inordinate chatter or idle chatter.

If I've been idle for you...ah well....

I can guarantee you there are those for whom it will be of great benefit if they follow up with a search of the Holy Fathers on the topics suggested.
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« Reply #54 on: July 18, 2011, 02:05:19 PM »

Just curious about your thought process.  That does not require judgement.  Now, IF I would have written that you were a hypocritical dolt who always has to have the last word, THEN I would have judged you.  But that is NOT what I wrote.  I was simply interested in how your tendency to rapidly rack up post count on a thread fit in with your supposed conversion from idle chatter.  That really does not required judgment.  After all, you have 4266 posts to your credit in just over a year.  That is nearly nine (9) post for every day that you have been here.  I, on the other hand, am known to be a motormouth and to engage in nearly every conversation in my vicinity, yet I have only managed to rack up 1657 posts in just under four years.  I guess that I am just jealous that someone who has been saved from the sin of idle talk can so completely own me considering that I have never been inhibited in this regard.  I must be doing it wrong.  Perhaps I should stop talking and do more writing, and then I too can overcome this sin.

/on the other hand, methinks that one who types much also speaks much. 


So now you just let your fingers do your talking for you. 

Sure.  Let's negate what I have said here by taking it to its extreme.  Predictable.

MOM!!!...Stop SCREAMING at me!!...

<smile>...o-kay

No, I just figured since you are responsible for 25% of the posts on this thread, you didn't learn as much about keeping quiet as you thought.  Either that, or you don't think typing counts as talking.

We are all charged with finding a way of discerning whether or not what we do is inordinate.   Silence is a great virtue but it can also be deadly.

Many of the things we are talking about here must be judged in terms of whether or not our behaviors are inordinate...out of the good order of sanctity and virtue and blessing.

You seem to have judged me.  Is it because you have great caring for me or do you hope to put me in what you think is my place?
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« Reply #55 on: July 18, 2011, 02:31:50 PM »

I'm a little confused here. What difference does it make whether "chatter" is verbal or typed?

I am not aware that there is much of a difference though the written word has different characteristics.

Are you joining the boys who think I should shut up?  Smiley

I don't really care how many of you miss what I've said or reject it.  

I get it, anyone who doesn't understand what you're saying should just bow their heads and accept. How arrogant it was of me to ask you for an explanation.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2011, 02:32:59 PM by Peter J » Logged

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« Reply #56 on: July 18, 2011, 02:39:40 PM »

Just curious about your thought process.  That does not require judgement.  Now, IF I would have written that you were a hypocritical dolt who always has to have the last word, THEN I would have judged you.  But that is NOT what I wrote.  I was simply interested in how your tendency to rapidly rack up post count on a thread fit in with your supposed conversion from idle chatter.  That really does not required judgment.  After all, you have 4266 posts to your credit in just over a year.  That is nearly nine (9) post for every day that you have been here.  I, on the other hand, am known to be a motormouth and to engage in nearly every conversation in my vicinity, yet I have only managed to rack up 1657 posts in just under four years.  I guess that I am just jealous that someone who has been saved from the sin of idle talk can so completely own me considering that I have never been inhibited in this regard.  I must be doing it wrong.  Perhaps I should stop talking and do more writing, and then I too can overcome this sin.

/on the other hand, methinks that one who types much also speaks much. 



 Smiley  I speak very little.  I live entirely alone in a very small rural town where I am something of an enigma to most of the residents since I am a late middle-aged woman living alone and a Catholic.  My closest family is 300 miles away, aside from my mother who speaks very little to me from week to week for she is aged and has other more worldly interests, so I have little in my life that interests her.  She talks much more to my brother and sister than she does to me.  We go out twice a month for supplies for our respective domiciles.  I have no friends nearby.  I use the Internet as part of an evangelical ministry and other than that I pray the hours, do spiritual and theological reading, and work on my house and yard and do some spiritual direction.

If you'd care to poke a finger in my left eye...feel free.   Smiley
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« Reply #57 on: July 18, 2011, 02:40:34 PM »

I'm a little confused here. What difference does it make whether "chatter" is verbal or typed?

I am not aware that there is much of a difference though the written word has different characteristics.

Are you joining the boys who think I should shut up?  Smiley

I don't really care how many of you miss what I've said or reject it.  

I get it, anyone who doesn't understand what you're saying should just bow their heads and accept. How arrogant it was of me to ask you for an explanation.

I don't think I have much to say to you, Peter.

Thanks.
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« Reply #58 on: July 18, 2011, 03:29:30 PM »

I'm a little confused here. What difference does it make whether "chatter" is verbal or typed?

I am not aware that there is much of a difference though the written word has different characteristics.

Are you joining the boys who think I should shut up?  Smiley

I don't really care how many of you miss what I've said or reject it.  

I get it, anyone who doesn't understand what you're saying should just bow their heads and accept. How arrogant it was of me to ask you for an explanation.

I don't think I have much to say to you, Peter.

Thanks.

Understood. Perhaps madam will deign to speak to me at some point in the future?
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« Reply #59 on: July 18, 2011, 03:32:14 PM »

I'm a little confused here. What difference does it make whether "chatter" is verbal or typed?

I am not aware that there is much of a difference though the written word has different characteristics.

Are you joining the boys who think I should shut up?  Smiley

I don't really care how many of you miss what I've said or reject it.  

I get it, anyone who doesn't understand what you're saying should just bow their heads and accept. How arrogant it was of me to ask you for an explanation.

I don't think I have much to say to you, Peter.

Thanks.

Understood. Perhaps madam will deign to speak to me at some point in the future?

In all likelihood!

 Smiley
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« Reply #60 on: July 18, 2011, 07:11:08 PM »

I live entirely alone in a very small rural town where I am something of an enigma to most of the residents since I am a late middle-aged woman living alone and a Catholic.  

If you'd care to poke a finger in my left eye...feel free.   Smiley

Ah, that explains much.  In any case, I try to keep my fingers out of other people's body parts.  But thanks for the offer anyway.
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« Reply #61 on: July 18, 2011, 09:05:43 PM »

I think what elijahmaria has to say has a greater worth than the credit its getting. No there is nothing wrong with speaking about issues. We are told to help our brothers carry their burdens. But at the same time it is true that the Fathers over and over say the best way to conquer lust is by physical labor and keeping your mind clear of it (including talking about it.) We all would benefit (myself being the first) if we did less talking and more doing. That's all I think she's trying to say. 
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« Reply #62 on: July 18, 2011, 09:22:39 PM »

I think what elijahmaria has to say has a greater worth than the credit its getting. No there is nothing wrong with speaking about issues. We are told to help our brothers carry their burdens. But at the same time it is true that the Fathers over and over say the best way to conquer lust is by physical labor and keeping your mind clear of it (including talking about it.) We all would benefit (myself being the first) if we did less talking and more doing. That's all I think she's trying to say.

Yes, I think so, too.

Mind you, I needed some of the following-up, explanatory posts to perceive the wisdom.
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« Reply #63 on: July 18, 2011, 09:24:23 PM »

I think what elijahmaria has to say has a greater worth than the credit its getting. No there is nothing wrong with speaking about issues. We are told to help our brothers carry their burdens. But at the same time it is true that the Fathers over and over say the best way to conquer lust is by physical labor and keeping your mind clear of it (including talking about it.) We all would benefit (myself being the first) if we did less talking and more doing. That's all I think she's trying to say.

Yes, I think so, too.

Mind you, I needed some of the following-up, explanatory posts to perceive the wisdom.

Fair enough brother  Smiley
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« Reply #64 on: July 18, 2011, 09:41:05 PM »

I think what elijahmaria has to say has a greater worth than the credit its getting. No there is nothing wrong with speaking about issues. We are told to help our brothers carry their burdens. But at the same time it is true that the Fathers over and over say the best way to conquer lust is by physical labor and keeping your mind clear of it (including talking about it.) We all would benefit (myself being the first) if we did less talking and more doing. That's all I think she's trying to say. 

Very simple really.  Idleness and Self-absorption.  Bad business.

M.
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« Reply #65 on: July 19, 2011, 01:01:26 AM »

Oh yeah I forgot to mention that I do suffer from OCD.  It comes and goes and can get real bad sometimes.  When I am plagued by fear or doubts about things, I try to mentally talk myself out of it by using rational arguments against what I'm obsessing about.  This can be bad at present cause I'm unemployed so I have a lot of time on my hands, time which causes my mind to start needlessly wandering and worrying about stuff.

It seems like my mind is always trying to either make me worry or cause doubts about things that I have always believed or even advice that I've received (Such as the counsel that my confessor gave me).  It's a terrible thing to go through.  I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. 

Also yes I'm on medication for OCD/Anxiety/Depression.  It is a constant, uphill climb.  I love the Church and religion and it pains me that it should be the thing to cause so much of this suffering (Or at least what my mind uses to make me suffer). 

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« Reply #66 on: July 19, 2011, 01:15:54 AM »


Since scrupulosity can be a symptom of a legitimate mental disorder (OCD) as you said, it may take more than prayer and almsgiving. It may take counseling and/or medication. I don't think it's far-fetched to say that part of the healing process could be discussing your issues with other people.

I have found several truths in life:

1.  Most mental illness can be cured using the spiritual guidance of the desert fathers...rigorously applied.

2.  Most talk therapy winds up being the next best thing to useless...entirely.

3.  Nothing will happen unless you make it happen.

4.  Unless you are running around naked in traffic, drugs administered for the average neurosis tend to make you complacent and fat, rather than well.  I began therapy about 20 years ago with seven other women that I knew who entered the mental health system about the same time I did.  I am the only one who refused drug therapies and I am the only one who has not undergone electroshock therapy to try to undo what the meds finally did to these women.

Now you can shoot all kinds of holes in this if you choose but I will follow what I have found through experience.  

Talking about a  neurosis...feeds the wolf.

Don't feed the wolf.

M.
There is no one-size-fits-all with this kind of thing. Just because medication may not have been the best thing for you or for those women that you knew doesn't mean that it is harmful for everyone. I happen to be on medication for anxiety and, while it has not totally gone away, it is much more tolerable now than it used to be. The same goes for talking with peers...you can't say that no one will benefit from that.

I resisted going on medication for a long time, but finally decided that I had to because my obsession were starting to affect both my mental and even psychical health.  I find that as Wyatt said, they don't completely remove all doubt and worry, but they do lessen their severity.  Everyone is different and every mind works differently.  I know that many religious people try to blame mental illness on self absorption and pride/vanity.  However when one is predisposed towards self absorption by mental illness, it isn't always easy to just turn it off by focusing on something else more higher or complex then oneself. 
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« Reply #67 on: July 19, 2011, 01:18:14 AM »

Oh yeah I forgot to mention that I do suffer from OCD.  It comes and goes and can get real bad sometimes.  When I am plagued by fear or doubts about things, I try to mentally talk myself out of it by using rational arguments against what I'm obsessing about.  This can be bad at present cause I'm unemployed so I have a lot of time on my hands, time which causes my mind to start needlessly wandering and worrying about stuff.

It seems like my mind is always trying to either make me worry or cause doubts about things that I have always believed or even advice that I've received (Such as the counsel that my confessor gave me).  It's a terrible thing to go through.  I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. 

Also yes I'm on medication for OCD/Anxiety/Depression.  It is a constant, uphill climb.  I love the Church and religion and it pains me that it should be the thing to cause so much of this suffering (Or at least what my mind uses to make me suffer). 


Have you talked to your doctor about your recent severe obsessions? Perhaps he or she would decide to either adjust your dosage or try a different medication. I was doing fairly okay recently as far as my anxiety goes, but then I had my injury in which I broke both of my legs and my jaw and I have been pretty shaken since that happened. If the fear does not subside I may discuss a dosage increase on my medication because, honestly, no one should have to live in a constant state of severe fear and panic. Prayer and spiritual exercises are good for everyone to practice, but when something is misfiring in your brain that is causing you to constantly feel ill, that is a medical condition and deserves medical treatment. I think oftentimes people don't take mental disorders as seriously as other diseases and disorders, but they are every bit as real and every bit as serious, and they can have just as big of an impact as physical conditions.
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« Reply #68 on: July 19, 2011, 02:13:33 AM »

After 30 years of dealing with this issue in  confession and pastoral situations there are things I'd like to contribute to the discussion but I am afraid it will start another round of the Ambrose and Mary show. There are other mature priests on the forum and it would be good to hear from them.

The reason I say it would be good to hear from priests is this ----- all the men who masturbate (and that is probably 99%, even if only infrequently) are very often too shy to speak of it so there is not a whole lot of peer interaction and learning going on.  Priests on the other hand get to talk to dozens of men on this topic and often for long conversations.  They develop an overarching view which the solitary masturbator doesn't have.   They learn that some methods work to lessen it in some men and some in others.  They can have good pragmatic advice for each specific situation.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2011, 02:28:51 AM by Irish Hermit » Logged
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« Reply #69 on: July 19, 2011, 04:28:56 AM »

"gravely disordered act" hmmmm.

I once asked a fomer Jesuit seminarian on female masturbation, given the claim of the Onan incident as the scriptural basis of the teaching.  He was utterly dumbfounded, and it was very amuzing to watch him go through the scholastic method to come up with an answer.
So why do you think it is wrong?
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« Reply #70 on: July 19, 2011, 06:53:04 AM »

"gravely disordered act" hmmmm.

I once asked a fomer Jesuit seminarian on female masturbation, given the claim of the Onan incident as the scriptural basis of the teaching.  He was utterly dumbfounded, and it was very amuzing to watch him go through the scholastic method to come up with an answer.
So why do you think it is wrong?
Besides what lust is involved, I don't think it is.
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« Reply #71 on: July 19, 2011, 08:40:41 AM »

Agreed.  My experience is that most laymen who speak openly about masturbation do not think that there is anything wrong with it, and that it is a natural function.  Those that believe (or have been conditioned to believe) that there is something wrong with masturbation are too ashamed to say anything about it (hence my respect for those who have confess such here, like Rob).  That pretty much (with rare exceptions) leaves priests as the few sources for advice for one wanting to overcome this.  Thanks for making this point.

After 30 years of dealing with this issue in  confession and pastoral situations there are things I'd like to contribute to the discussion but I am afraid it will start another round of the Ambrose and Mary show. There are other mature priests on the forum and it would be good to hear from them.

The reason I say it would be good to hear from priests is this ----- all the men who masturbate (and that is probably 99%, even if only infrequently) are very often too shy to speak of it so there is not a whole lot of peer interaction and learning going on.  Priests on the other hand get to talk to dozens of men on this topic and often for long conversations.  They develop an overarching view which the solitary masturbator doesn't have.   They learn that some methods work to lessen it in some men and some in others.  They can have good pragmatic advice for each specific situation.
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« Reply #72 on: July 19, 2011, 08:57:41 AM »

Same here.  The difficulty with the subject of maturbation is that it is impossible to really discuss the subject outside of the greater context of sex in general.  I first became suspicious of the "masturbation is bad" crowd when I started to notice the big picture of the male situation.  The fact is that a normal, healthy male is going to manufacture semen.  That semen will be released at some point.  Since the prudes teach that 1) wet dreams are bad and make you unclean, 2) masturbation is bad, and 3) sex is bad unless a) you are married and b) you are trying to make a baby, there is no other conclusion to make than a young man is going to be in some state of sin due to a perfectly natural body function.  Given this, it seems that masturbation is the lesser of the evils since there is no chance of getting a girl pregnant, you are not "using a woman for your own pleasure", and since you have some control over the situation, you are not making quite the mess of a wet dream.  Sure, I have read where many of the Fathers have overcome nature.  That is never easy, but going off into the wilderness by yourself and hiding from the world would probably make some things easier to overcome.  I know, in my younger days, when I was sitting in the woods by myself at 2 am waiting for the sun to come up while hunting, masturbation was the absolute LAST thing on my mind.  Sitting in a classroom in springtime surrounded by the crowning jewels of God's creation, that was another matter completely.

Just to be clear, I am rather agnostic about this subject.  I am not going to tell someone "go ahead, do what feels good".  On the other hand, I am not going to judge someone over the matter either.

"gravely disordered act" hmmmm.

I once asked a fomer Jesuit seminarian on female masturbation, given the claim of the Onan incident as the scriptural basis of the teaching.  He was utterly dumbfounded, and it was very amuzing to watch him go through the scholastic method to come up with an answer.
So why do you think it is wrong?
Besides what lust is involved, I don't think it is.
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« Reply #73 on: July 19, 2011, 09:05:40 AM »


Have you talked to your doctor about your recent severe obsessions? Perhaps he or she would decide to either adjust your dosage or try a different medication. I was doing fairly okay recently as far as my anxiety goes, but then I had my injury in which I broke both of my legs and my jaw and I have been pretty shaken since that happened. If the fear does not subside I may discuss a dosage increase on my medication because, honestly, no one should have to live in a constant state of severe fear and panic. Prayer and spiritual exercises are good for everyone to practice, but when something is misfiring in your brain that is causing you to constantly feel ill, that is a medical condition and deserves medical treatment. I think oftentimes people don't take mental disorders as seriously as other diseases and disorders, but they are every bit as real and every bit as serious, and they can have just as big of an impact as physical conditions.

I hear what you and Robb are saying but don't forget, while you are at it, that we can change the way our brain "fires" by our thinking and our behaviors. 

With a neurosis, you can take a crippled life and turn it around in a more solid and complete way than you can imagine at the moment.  It would take you to the edge of what you presume your abilities to be at the moment and you'd have to force yourselves over that edge, but what you find on the other side is something far more stable than the meds can ever give to you.  As long as reality is there for you to access, with neuroses, there is every chance you can get there and stay there.  It is a much better place, but you must force yourselves to do things which, for the moment, you have declared impossible or something you ought not have to do.  This is a recipe for failure spiritually and psychologically.

I pray good health and happiness for both of you.

M.
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« Reply #74 on: July 19, 2011, 10:17:49 AM »

Punch, it's true that semen will be released at some point, but there is a big difference between a wet dream and masturbation.
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« Reply #75 on: July 19, 2011, 10:26:37 AM »

All discussion bordering on medical advice will cease as of now.  Any breach of this directive will be met harshly.

Thank you.

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« Reply #76 on: July 19, 2011, 10:33:40 AM »

Punch, it's true that semen will be released at some point, but there is a big difference between a wet dream and masturbation.

Agree.  And it is in those differences that the real answer to the question lies. 
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« Reply #77 on: July 19, 2011, 04:14:34 PM »

Punch, it's true that semen will be released at some point, but there is a big difference between a wet dream and masturbation.
Such as?
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« Reply #78 on: July 20, 2011, 10:47:58 AM »

A wet dream is involuntary. You dont even know you're doing it. You're asleep. And well, the other one......

primuspilus
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« Reply #79 on: July 20, 2011, 11:13:36 AM »

A wet dream is involuntary. You dont even know you're doing it. You're asleep. And well, the other one......

primuspilus

There are prayers for a priest to say if he has an involuntary emission before serving the Liturgy. While it's involuntary, it still embodies our general sinful state disconnected from God. (Such prayers I find helpful even for us laypeople who struggle with the more voluntary form.)

If we confess in our prayers the sins we commit "voluntarily or involuntarily, consciously or unconsciously", we can commit involuntary and unconscious sins. It's not like a voluntary masturbation session, but it's still a sin according to the Church.

I don't know that I agree with all of the reasoning behind it, but it is what it is. I'm not going to argue with the Church over it.
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« Reply #80 on: July 20, 2011, 12:16:33 PM »

I guess you have more patience than I, primuspilus. I was just going to disregard ialmisry's last question as "trolling".
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« Reply #81 on: July 20, 2011, 03:30:55 PM »

Quote
There are prayers for a priest to say if he has an involuntary emission before serving the Liturgy. While it's involuntary, it still embodies our general sinful state disconnected from God. (Such prayers I find helpful even for us laypeople who struggle with the more voluntary form.)

If we confess in our prayers the sins we commit "voluntarily or involuntarily, consciously or unconsciously", we can commit involuntary and unconscious sins. It's not like a voluntary masturbation session, but it's still a sin according to the Church.

I don't know that I agree with all of the reasoning behind it, but it is what it is. I'm not going to argue with the Church over it.

How is it a sin? Its something that happens naturally like peeing the bed. Your body vacates the stuff all on its own. Thats like saying scratching your junk in your sleep is a sin...dont understand that one at all.

primuspilus

P.S. I do have patience..its actually my middl.....actually no, its Robert Smiley
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« Reply #82 on: July 20, 2011, 03:58:09 PM »

Quote
There are prayers for a priest to say if he has an involuntary emission before serving the Liturgy. While it's involuntary, it still embodies our general sinful state disconnected from God. (Such prayers I find helpful even for us laypeople who struggle with the more voluntary form.)

If we confess in our prayers the sins we commit "voluntarily or involuntarily, consciously or unconsciously", we can commit involuntary and unconscious sins. It's not like a voluntary masturbation session, but it's still a sin according to the Church.

I don't know that I agree with all of the reasoning behind it, but it is what it is. I'm not going to argue with the Church over it.

How is it a sin? Its something that happens naturally like peeing the bed. Your body vacates the stuff all on its own. Thats like saying scratching your junk in your sleep is a sin...dont understand that one at all.

primuspilus

P.S. I do have patience..its actually my middl.....actually no, its Robert Smiley

Typically, it's considered a sin because it's a sign of our fallen nature, like menstruation. Hence it is an "involuntary sin".
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« Reply #83 on: July 20, 2011, 04:05:59 PM »

Quote
There are prayers for a priest to say if he has an involuntary emission before serving the Liturgy. While it's involuntary, it still embodies our general sinful state disconnected from God. (Such prayers I find helpful even for us laypeople who struggle with the more voluntary form.)

If we confess in our prayers the sins we commit "voluntarily or involuntarily, consciously or unconsciously", we can commit involuntary and unconscious sins. It's not like a voluntary masturbation session, but it's still a sin according to the Church.

I don't know that I agree with all of the reasoning behind it, but it is what it is. I'm not going to argue with the Church over it.

How is it a sin? Its something that happens naturally like peeing the bed. Your body vacates the stuff all on its own. Thats like saying scratching your junk in your sleep is a sin...dont understand that one at all.

primuspilus

P.S. I do have patience..its actually my middl.....actually no, its Robert Smiley

Typically, it's considered a sin because it's a sign of our fallen nature, like menstruation. Hence it is an "involuntary sin".
What? You a Zoroastrian?
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« Reply #84 on: July 20, 2011, 04:07:00 PM »

I guess you have more patience than I, primuspilus. I was just going to disregard ialmisry's last question as "trolling".
IOW, you have no answer, or you prefer not to give it?
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« Reply #85 on: July 20, 2011, 04:10:20 PM »

Quote
Typically, it's considered a sin because it's a sign of our fallen nature, like menstruation. Hence it is an "involuntary sin".

Using that logic, so is breathing. Dont take this the wrong way, but i would like a source for that information stated please. I want to learn more about this.

primuspilus
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« Reply #86 on: July 20, 2011, 04:26:25 PM »

Quote
Typically, it's considered a sin because it's a sign of our fallen nature, like menstruation. Hence it is an "involuntary sin".

Using that logic, so is breathing. Dont take this the wrong way, but i would like a source for that information stated please. I want to learn more about this.

primuspilus

I guess that I don't believe in "involuntary sins", hence my confusion about this subject.  I believe in sins caused by ignorance, but these are still intentional actions (even if the consequences were not intentional) and not natural actions.  I have a hard time seeing natural actions done by all humans, and even most advanced primates, as being sinful.  Does a monkey sin when it masturbates? Does a Chicken sin when it has its period?  If so, eating eggs must be mortal sin. We keep chickens just so that we can use the product of their mensuration, even to the point of painting Icons with it. 
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« Reply #87 on: July 20, 2011, 05:12:25 PM »

Quote
Typically, it's considered a sin because it's a sign of our fallen nature, like menstruation. Hence it is an "involuntary sin".

Using that logic, so is breathing. Dont take this the wrong way, but i would like a source for that information stated please. I want to learn more about this.

primuspilus

I guess that I don't believe in "involuntary sins", hence my confusion about this subject.  I believe in sins caused by ignorance, but these are still intentional actions (even if the consequences were not intentional) and not natural actions.  I have a hard time seeing natural actions done by all humans, and even most advanced primates, as being sinful.  Does a monkey sin when it masturbates? Does a Chicken sin when it has its period?  If so, eating eggs must be mortal sin. We keep chickens just so that we can use the product of their mensuration, even to the point of painting Icons with it. 

Perhaps it is more a product of sin.  Death is certainly a product of sin even though scientifically (not theologically) it is the most natural thing you can do.
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« Reply #88 on: July 20, 2011, 05:34:16 PM »

I guess that I don't believe in "involuntary sins", hence my confusion about this subject.

Sin is not about breaking rules, but rather missing the mark. Masturbation is missing the mark, whether it happens intentionally in front of porn, or unintentionally in one's sleep. We miss the mark when we are not the humans God created us to be, and sometimes that happens whether we want it or not.

Does a monkey sin when it masturbates? Does a Chicken sin when it has its period?

Masturbation is an intentional act (even if it occurs in one's sleep, it is not a passive event), so it does not correlate with menstruation.

Animals cannot sin because they have no nous. They are "irrational beings". We don't look to the animals for our morality, because then we would have to accept polygamy, incest, murder, homosexuality, etc. We look to the Church for our morality, and to Christ.

Animals aren't sinful because they have no ability to consider their behavior. They act on their instincts, which are distorted by the fall and death, just as ours are. Unlike us, they have no higher function to govern themselves, so they do whatever comes to them.

God loves us, he knows we can't help it, and forgives us, of course. We need not despair over the sins we commit unawares. But it helps no one to say such things aren't sins, despite what the Church says. We confess them and move on, trusting that these things will be sorted out as we grow in holiness.

At least that's what my priest has said on the topic. I think it makes complete sense.
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« Reply #89 on: July 20, 2011, 05:52:54 PM »

How is it a sin? Its something that happens naturally like peeing the bed. Your body vacates the stuff all on its own.

How can you say it's natural? Nature is affected by sin and death, so we have no idea what "natural" bodily functions are. "It's natural" is the same argument the homosexual crowd uses. It may be natural to any of us, but that does not make it objectively natural.

A number of the Fathers taught that human bodily functions, specifically reproductive ones, were radically different before the Fall. One good, smaller book that touches on that subject is "The First Created Man" by St Symeon the New Theologian.

As I said in response to Punch, sin is about missing the mark that God intended us to hit. When we do these things—intentionally or not—it is missing the mark. That the Church provides prayers for us for these occasions shows that she is compassionate, but firm.

It would be dangerous to get too proud and too sure of the perfection of our physical constitution that our bodies may not rebel against us. It is the way of things, we are weak and helpless creatures, but I have no doubt God forgives us for such involuntary things.
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