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Author Topic: RC/EO pastoral response to Masturbation?  (Read 12144 times) Average Rating: 0
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Peter J
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« Reply #180 on: July 23, 2011, 07:27:01 PM »

If a husband is feeling aroused one night but his wife is not interested, then the husband has to live with it—not go and "take care of it" himself.
How about his wife taking care of it?

If he feels his wife is not fulfilling her marital duties, then they should go to their priest and talk about it.

But her sin does not give him permission to sin.
That presumed it is a sin.
So you don't think masturbation is a sin? How do you figure that?

Just for fun, do you know what masturbation is? I mean outside the the parlance of a high school looker room.

OK, to be fair, to those who study human sexuality?

And to use the general parlance, I am sure you can see what people mean by using their partner as tool to masturbate, even when they are having vaginal intercourse?

This question issue ain't so simple.
You insult my intelligence.

Apparently it's alright to insult someone as long as it's "just for fun".

Hmm...
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« Reply #181 on: July 23, 2011, 07:28:57 PM »

If a husband is feeling aroused one night but his wife is not interested, then the husband has to live with it—not go and "take care of it" himself.
How about his wife taking care of it?

If he feels his wife is not fulfilling her marital duties, then they should go to their priest and talk about it.

But her sin does not give him permission to sin.
That presumed it is a sin.
So you don't think masturbation is a sin? How do you figure that?

Just for fun, do you know what masturbation is? I mean outside the the parlance of a high school looker room.

OK, to be fair, to those who study human sexuality?

And to use the general parlance, I am sure you can see what people mean by using their partner as tool to masturbate, even when they are having vaginal intercourse?

This question issue ain't so simple.
You insult my intelligence. Of course I know what it is, although vaginal intercourse is not masturbation,
you just demonstrated you don't know what masturbation is.
It's committing the sin of lust within marriage, yes...but it's not masturbation. Vaginal intercourse =/= masturbation.
And anal sex? Oral sex? (Clinton became famous with stating that's not sexual relations).
It's not intercourse but it's still wrong.
OK, and anal intercourse?
I was referring to both in my answer.
So in your statement
Vaginal intercourse =/= masturbation.
vaginal is redundant?
No, I was clarifying what I meant by intercourse. Since you like to equate masturbation with pretty much any sex act I figured I better clarify. It's laughable that you say Humanae Vitae creates an artificial distinction between artificial contraception and natural family planning, yet you yourself claim that even marital intercourse can be masturbation. Umm wut?

Obviously some secular authorities would equate oral and anal activity with being intercourse as well, but it is at that point that I would object on theological grounds since, at least from a Catholic standpoint, those activities are disordered (except for oral which is acceptable in the context of foreplay). I have heard oral and anal sex being referred to as a form of masturbation in moral theology, but I have never heard of regular ol' vaginal intercourse ever being referred to as masturbation in any context.

Not all acts of lust and selfishness are masturbation. Masturbation is the manipulation of the sex organs for pleasure outside of intercourse.
So anal intercourse isn't masturbation. Got it.  Nor, for that matter then, homosexual male intercourse.
I've heard some people classify oral sex and anal sex as masturbation, but I think even that is a stretch from the usual meaning. To me, those are separate sexual sins altogether.
LOL. What does Aquinas say?
I'm not sure what you are referring to. Quote?
I'm asking YOU for the quote.
I don't have one. Since you brought it up I figured you had one in mind.
Your the one claiming the narrow definition of "masturbation," "intercourse," etc.  Just thought I'd ask your authority on that.
I'm not appealing to theologians. I'm appealing to common sense and the common English usage of the words. You mind telling me why you think masturbation has such a broad meaning? I can give you quotes, but it comes from Merriam Webster:

masturbation noun - erotic stimulation especially of one's own genital organs commonly resulting in orgasm and achieved by manual or other bodily contact exclusive of sexual intercourse, by instrumental manipulation, occasionally by sexual fantasies, or by various combinations of these agencies

sexual intercourse noun - heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : coitus

That is how the OP started, but we've gone beyond that, e.g.
You can't classify any sin of lust as masturbation. Masturbation is one type of sexual sin, but there are others.
yes, like homosexual intercourse.
Sodomy
You mean vaginal intercourse from behind.
No...I mean what I said.
You said "sodomy."  Up the thread I linked to where that included vaginal intercourse from behind.
That's not sodomy...that's "doggie style."

Yes, it is, if you are using a person as a sexual tool.
Again, sin of lust and masturbation are not synonyms. If that was the case then rape would be masturbation, and I don't know anyone that would classify it as such.
perhaps the survivor/victim.
So you think a if a rape victim went in to report what happened, they would say "a man attacked me and used my body to masturbate himself"?
Sometimes they do.  I'm speaking from experience, as hearing the crime related by real live people. Not angels dancing on a pinhead examined by a pinhead.
You must know more rape victims than I do.
Comes with experience I suppose: I used to work in a psych hospital where such things were common in patient histories.

Perhaps we should continue this cheery subject on another thread, as this is no longer pastoral it seems. Or not.
Fine with me, though the thread was already way off topic before this conversation began. I'm not the one who expanded the term masturbation to include all the diverse sex acts besides just sex acts with oneself, which is the typical usage of the word and the topic that the OP had in mind.
No, that's not the typical usage of the word, as "mutual masturbation" and other things are normally included.
Yes...but mutual masturbation is a far cry from claiming that even standard vaginal sexual relations can be masturbation, which is completely ludicrous.
Answered here:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,38152.msg606409/topicseen.html#msg606409
« Last Edit: July 23, 2011, 07:29:23 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #182 on: July 23, 2011, 07:30:22 PM »

On the contrary, a married couple engaging in mutual masturbation to please each other lacks the characteristics of sin,

Dixit ialmisry.

I guess we can close down this thread now.
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« Reply #183 on: July 23, 2011, 07:30:33 PM »

You guys are building little pyramids out of quote boxes. Is there even a point to your argument, or are you just fighting for domination?
Do you distinguish persons from sex toys?
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« Reply #184 on: July 23, 2011, 07:33:08 PM »

In case nobody noticed, the above was written pretty much as satire.  I am just in one of those moods today.

Maybe I am indeed grown too old, but I think you make far better sense when you play these things straight.  It sounds more compelling to these old ears, and I am drawn to what you say in earnest mode.  "Satire" is a tough style to play without making it sound too bitter or stereotyped and inauthentic.

M.

True.  But also consider that it is impossible to write satire unless one struggles with the very things he writes.  Don't think those thoughts never crossed my mind, and do not be too sure that they have been completely overcome.

Oh no...I was offering a literary critique!!  laugh

NOW you are being much too serious.

See Azurestone's comments below mine and you'll catch the drift!
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« Reply #185 on: July 23, 2011, 07:33:33 PM »

On the contrary, a married couple engaging in mutual masturbation to please each other lacks the characteristics of sin,

Dixit ialmisry.

I guess we can close down this thread now.
Or move it
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,38152.msg606413.html#msg606413
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« Reply #186 on: July 23, 2011, 07:40:19 PM »

If a husband is feeling aroused one night but his wife is not interested, then the husband has to live with it—not go and "take care of it" himself.
How about his wife taking care of it?

If he feels his wife is not fulfilling her marital duties, then they should go to their priest and talk about it.

But her sin does not give him permission to sin.
That presumed it is a sin.
So you don't think masturbation is a sin? How do you figure that?

Just for fun, do you know what masturbation is? I mean outside the the parlance of a high school looker room.

OK, to be fair, to those who study human sexuality?

And to use the general parlance, I am sure you can see what people mean by using their partner as tool to masturbate, even when they are having vaginal intercourse?

This question issue ain't so simple.
You insult my intelligence.

Apparently it's alright to insult someone as long as it's "just for fun".

Hmm...

Excuse me, I didn't insult him. I asked him a question which frankly he didn't answer correctly outside the world of Merriam Webster.

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« Reply #187 on: July 23, 2011, 08:10:48 PM »

So you don't think masturbation is a sin? How do you figure that?

Just for fun, do you know what masturbation is? I mean outside the the parlance of a high school looker room.

OK, to be fair, to those who study human sexuality?

And to use the general parlance, I am sure you can see what people mean by using their partner as tool to masturbate, even when they are having vaginal intercourse?

This question issue ain't so simple.
You insult my intelligence.

Apparently it's alright to insult someone as long as it's "just for fun".

Hmm...

Excuse me, I didn't insult him. I asked him a question which frankly he didn't answer correctly outside the world of Merriam Webster.

My mistake. You only insulted his intelligence.

If you don't mind my asking, was it as much fun as you had hoped?
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« Reply #188 on: July 23, 2011, 08:22:20 PM »

So you don't think masturbation is a sin? How do you figure that?

Just for fun, do you know what masturbation is? I mean outside the the parlance of a high school looker room.

OK, to be fair, to those who study human sexuality?

And to use the general parlance, I am sure you can see what people mean by using their partner as tool to masturbate, even when they are having vaginal intercourse?

This question issue ain't so simple.
You insult my intelligence.

Apparently it's alright to insult someone as long as it's "just for fun".

Hmm...

Excuse me, I didn't insult him. I asked him a question which frankly he didn't answer correctly outside the world of Merriam Webster.

My mistake. You only insulted his intelligence.

If you don't mind my asking, was it as much fun as you had hoped?

Didn't insult his intelligence either. Asking someone if they know what they are talking about is not insulting their intelligence.

He obviously did not or was operating from a definition that some of us simply do not accept, thus revealing an essential problem in the debate.

You are just goading now.

Just for fun, do you know what that means?
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« Reply #189 on: July 23, 2011, 08:29:31 PM »

You are just goading now.

Wow, today must really be special. A dixit ialmisry and a dixit orthonorm.

I feel so unworthy.
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« Reply #190 on: July 23, 2011, 08:35:56 PM »

You are just goading now.

Wow, today must really be special. A dixit ialmisry and a dixit orthonorm.

I feel so unworthy.

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« Reply #191 on: July 23, 2011, 09:06:47 PM »

Well, something like that.
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« Reply #192 on: July 23, 2011, 09:50:33 PM »

Quote from: Peter J
Dixit ialmisry.

I guess we can close down this thread now.

For a guy who doesn't like the RCC Pope, he sure tells people what to do and what the 'absolute truth' is, a lot.  Roll Eyes And he's against Humanae Vitae, but he does find the, er, use of the hands acceptable.

Don't expect that to make sense.
 
As for closing down this thread, it's past time somebody did.
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« Reply #193 on: July 23, 2011, 10:36:46 PM »

As for closing down this thread, it's past time somebody did.

I think the moderators are taking a "hands-off" approach! *rimshot*  Grin
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« Reply #194 on: July 23, 2011, 10:38:20 PM »

 Wink Teehee.
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« Reply #195 on: July 24, 2011, 01:14:03 AM »

If a husband is feeling aroused one night but his wife is not interested, then the husband has to live with it—not go and "take care of it" himself.
How about his wife taking care of it?

If he feels his wife is not fulfilling her marital duties, then they should go to their priest and talk about it.

But her sin does not give him permission to sin.
That presumed it is a sin.
So you don't think masturbation is a sin? How do you figure that?

Just for fun, do you know what masturbation is? I mean outside the the parlance of a high school looker room.

OK, to be fair, to those who study human sexuality?

And to use the general parlance, I am sure you can see what people mean by using their partner as tool to masturbate, even when they are having vaginal intercourse?

This question issue ain't so simple.
Yeah, that masturbation really has the making of sin, but not discussed so much. On the contrary, a married couple engaging in mutual masturbation to please each other lacks the characteristics of sin, despite what the Vatican, HV, and even some Orthodox (e.g. Fr. Josiah Trenham) state otherwise.

I think that the Church (Or any organized religion for that matter) Goes too far and crosses the boundaries of spiritual decency when they try to tell two conscenting adults how to have sex.  Everybody gets off differently and some higher forms of sexual stimulation are necessary in order to properly please a person.  Mutual masturbation may be the only way some people can experience erotic pleasure before vaginal intercourse (Or build up to it). 

God created us to have sex within the boundaries of marriage and he made it pleasurable so that we would be encouraged to procreate.  Can any type of sexual pleasure experienced within the married state actually be considered wrong or sinful?  Aren't these ancient prohibitions against various non vaginal sex acts just Medevil hangups from a time when the Church had a more Platonic outlook on procreation?

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« Reply #196 on: July 24, 2011, 02:15:36 AM »

Can any type of sexual pleasure experienced within the married state actually be considered wrong or sinful? 

How about rape play? It might be consensual, but what about the potential psychological damage (for both people)?
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« Reply #197 on: July 24, 2011, 06:10:45 AM »

Can any type of sexual pleasure experienced within the married state actually be considered wrong or sinful? 

Yes.
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« Reply #198 on: July 25, 2011, 02:19:38 AM »

Can any type of sexual pleasure experienced within the married state actually be considered wrong or sinful? 

How about rape play? It might be consensual, but what about the potential psychological damage (for both people)?

I was talking about normal sexual activity outside of vaginal intercourse, not that sick stuff.
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« Reply #199 on: July 25, 2011, 02:30:09 AM »

Can any type of sexual pleasure experienced within the married state actually be considered wrong or sinful? 

How about rape play? It might be consensual, but what about the potential psychological damage (for both people)?

I was talking about normal sexual activity outside of vaginal intercourse, not that sick stuff.

That's a cop out. What you find sick they merely find "kinky". Who gets to decide what is "sick" and what is "normal"? Shall we replace the Church deciding what is ok with Robb deciding?  Wink
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« Reply #200 on: July 25, 2011, 09:28:23 AM »

Can any type of sexual pleasure experienced within the married state actually be considered wrong or sinful? 

How about rape play? It might be consensual, but what about the potential psychological damage (for both people)?

I was talking about normal sexual activity outside of vaginal intercourse, not that sick stuff.

As a German, I may have a different definition of "normal" than you.
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« Reply #201 on: July 25, 2011, 10:05:19 AM »

Can any type of sexual pleasure experienced within the married state actually be considered wrong or sinful? 

How about rape play? It might be consensual, but what about the potential psychological damage (for both people)?

I was talking about normal sexual activity outside of vaginal intercourse, not that sick stuff.

As a German, I may have a different definition of "normal" than you.
LOL. Let alone the Mediterranean types.
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« Reply #202 on: July 25, 2011, 10:07:09 AM »

Can any type of sexual pleasure experienced within the married state actually be considered wrong or sinful? 

How about rape play? It might be consensual, but what about the potential psychological damage (for both people)?

I was talking about normal sexual activity outside of vaginal intercourse, not that sick stuff.

As a German, I may have a different definition of "normal" than you.

Are you thinking of stuff like the Armin Meiwes affair?
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« Reply #203 on: July 25, 2011, 11:02:54 AM »

Can any type of sexual pleasure experienced within the married state actually be considered wrong or sinful? 

How about rape play? It might be consensual, but what about the potential psychological damage (for both people)?

I was talking about normal sexual activity outside of vaginal intercourse, not that sick stuff.

As a German, I may have a different definition of "normal" than you.

Are you thinking of stuff like the Armin Meiwes affair?

That affair was pushing it a bit, even for a German.  I am thinking more in the lines of topless beaches, legalized prostitution, certain streets in Hamburg and Frankfurt where you can see the ladies "on display" in the windows, remembering that the first thing that I saw getting off the plane in Frankfurt in 1977 was Dr. Muller's Sex Shop right there in the airport.  And we can't forget the German Poop Porn (even if you try - what is seen cannot be unseen).  Yes, the Germans can be perverted, but they are open about it.
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« Reply #204 on: July 25, 2011, 12:24:38 PM »

Yes, the Germans can be perverted, but they are open about it.

Popular culture can often be disgusting, and I don't think 'popular' is his use of the word 'normal'.
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« Reply #205 on: July 25, 2011, 01:05:07 PM »

Yes, the Germans can be perverted, but they are open about it.

Popular culture can often be disgusting, and I don't think 'popular' is his use of the word 'normal'.

Really?  I would say that when something is "popular" with the majority of a given population set over a sufficient amount of time, that becomes "normal" for that population. 
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« Reply #206 on: July 25, 2011, 01:14:31 PM »

Yes, the Germans can be perverted, but they are open about it.

Popular culture can often be disgusting, and I don't think 'popular' is his use of the word 'normal'.

Really?  I would say that when something is "popular" with the majority of a given population set over a sufficient amount of time, that becomes "normal" for that population. 

How is the contradictory to what I said?
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« Reply #207 on: July 25, 2011, 01:25:48 PM »

Yes, the Germans can be perverted, but they are open about it.

Popular culture can often be disgusting, and I don't think 'popular' is his use of the word 'normal'.

Really?  I would say that when something is "popular" with the majority of a given population set over a sufficient amount of time, that becomes "normal" for that population. 

How is the contradictory to what I said?

I don't know.  You are the one who brought up "popular" when the discussion was about "normal".
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« Reply #208 on: July 25, 2011, 01:31:15 PM »

Yes, the Germans can be perverted, but they are open about it.

Popular culture can often be disgusting, and I don't think 'popular' is his use of the word 'normal'.

Really?  I would say that when something is "popular" with the majority of a given population set over a sufficient amount of time, that becomes "normal" for that population. 

How is the contradictory to what I said?

I don't know.  You are the one who brought up "popular" when the discussion was about "normal".

I said his use of the term normal was not equal to what is popular, though that is often an argued definition.

I'm sure his use of the word stemmed from a  definition of correct and moral behavior, as would be understood as good human conduct by the Orthodox Church and/or the Roman Church.

Normal to one who accepts relativism may very well conceive that normality changes with the 'norm' of the culture. However, for an absolutist, normal behavior, morality, etc. is always normal despite the trend and/or acceptance by a host people/culture/civilization.
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« Reply #209 on: August 07, 2011, 10:13:33 PM »




Beating off a true temptation is not easy work, and it is never done. We can say "NO" to darn near everyone but ourselves.




Nice choice of words for the subject at hand!
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« Reply #210 on: August 23, 2011, 04:39:55 AM »

Like smoking this can give a ticket to Hell.

There are several stories in which a little boy did this and was almost being taken to Hell. However Holy Mother of God saved him and while dead he wake up and asked for a priest to confess the sin of masturbation. After confessing he died and went to Heaven.

Masturbation enters under category of fornication with hand. There is a problem in our society by having false information that our health can suffer without a sexual life which is toltally wrong.

Effects of masturbation by Arsenie Boca book: changes to fizionimy (which I believe make a man with these changes lesslikeable by ladies), divorce because the man capacity can suffer, children can get stupid because masturbation can sever nervous links and this can get transmited to next generation and such.
http://orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/selfabuse.aspx
A young man once related the following to me. As a teenager, he was interested in sports, especially wrestling. At about fifteen, a teammate introduced him to the sin of self-abuse. Out of shame, he did not confess the sin. One day, a month later, he was wrestling at home, on the living room floor, with his older brother. Inadvertently, his brother, who was very hefty, fell on his chest with such force that he could not breathe and literally died. In this state, he observed his own body, the shock of his brother and his mother, who had rushed in to help him, and his soul, accompanied by his Guardian Angel, as it ascended above his house, high over the city where he lived, and finally into the heavens. He then found himself in a long, dark tunnel, at the end of which he saw a light and Paradise. As he entered into this light, he saw the Theotokos, who asked his Guardian Angel why he was there. The Angel then related to her the details of the boys death. At this, the Theotokos turned to him and said, Your mother has prayed fervently to me for your return, and my Son has granted her request. The boy, overwhelmed by the beauty of Paradise, begged to remain. The Mother of God, however, replied: No. For the sake of your mother, you must return. But hear me: You must confess the sin that you committed a month ago. This is a frightful sin, and unless you confess it to a Priest, behold what will happen to you. At these words, the Theotokos asked the Archangel Michael to escort him to a precipice that overlooked the torments of Hell. The view was so frightening that the boy almost fainted. Afterwards, he re-traced his path through the dark tunnel, down through the heavens, over the city in which he lived, over his house, and then into the room where his family was gathered over his dead body. Then, feeling a tremendous pressure on his body, his soul returned to its place and he opened his eyes. He then related to his family all that had happened to him. His grieving mother, on hearing all that he told them, gave thanks to the Theotokos for her intervention with Christ on the boys behalf, and, weeping uncontrollably, embraced and warmly kissed him.

+ + +
Another teenage boy also fell to the sin of self-abuse and, again out of shame, failed to confess it to his spiritual Father. It so happened that he contracted a fatal disease and was dying. His family sent word to the boys Confessor about his condition, but were unable to find him before the boy died. At the time of his death, the young man's soul was seized by two horrible demons, which began to drag him to a place of terrible torment. In the meantime, the boys spiritual Father arrived at his home and found the grieving family. If you had come earlier, they cried, you might have prevented his death. Please, please bring him back. The Priest began to pray and, lo, a miracle occurred. The boy indeed returned to life. He immediately cried out to his Confessor, You have saved me. And he then began to relate to him his terrible encounter with the demonic forces that, just before his revival, were on the verge of casting him into Hell. Not knowing of the boys sin, the Priest asked of him, How could this have happened to you? Why would these demons claim your soul? The boy then confessed his misdeed. Do you sincerely repent of this, my son, the Priest asked. Yes, the youth replied. Are you sure? the Priest asked once more. The boy replied, O yes, Father! The Priest then continued: And do you want to go to Heaven? You mean I can be with my Christ right now? the boy exclaimed. His spiritual Father assured him that he could. Then I wish to die, the boy said, crossing his arms on his chest. The Priest made the sign of the Cross on the boy, and the youth, closing his eyes, blissfully reposed.

« Last Edit: August 23, 2011, 04:45:56 AM by pasadi97 » Logged
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« Reply #211 on: August 23, 2011, 04:53:59 AM »

There is a devil associated with this sin. One man went to elder Arseny and asked him about this sin. He told Father Arseny he is dreaming a demon. Father Arseny showed him a picture with demons and asked the young man, which one and the young man selected one and Father Arseny asked him to look at the demon name and when he looked he read, masturbation demon.

Prayer can help dearly. Somebody went to a monk requesting help with this sin and he dreamed a demon. Some time later he heard a voice saying you do it one more time I am going to take the girl from you. He felt into the sin one more time and his family was broken and the girl was taken from him.

So I would say prayer can help.

While in married state, you may not be allowed to do perversion.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2011, 05:02:39 AM by pasadi97 » Logged
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« Reply #212 on: August 23, 2011, 05:04:05 AM »

Like smoking this can give a ticket to Hell.

There are several stories in which a little boy did this and was almost being taken to Hell. However Holy Mother of God saved him and while dead he wake up and asked for a priest to confess the sin of masturbation. After confessing he died and went to Heaven.

Masturbation enters under category of fornication with hand. There is a problem in our society by having false information that our health can suffer without a sexual life which is toltally wrong.

Effects of masturbation by Arsenie Boca book: changes to fizionimy (which I believe make a man with these changes lesslikeable by ladies), divorce because the man capacity can suffer, children can get stupid because masturbation can sever nervous links and this can get transmited to next generation and such.
Nonsense.
http://orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/selfabuse.aspx
A young man once related the following to me. As a teenager, he was interested in sports, especially wrestling. At about fifteen, a teammate introduced him to the sin of self-abuse. Out of shame, he did not confess the sin. One day, a month later, he was wrestling at home, on the living room floor, with his older brother. Inadvertently, his brother, who was very hefty, fell on his chest with such force that he could not breathe and literally died. In this state, he observed his own body, the shock of his brother and his mother, who had rushed in to help him, and his soul, accompanied by his Guardian Angel, as it ascended above his house, high over the city where he lived, and finally into the heavens. He then found himself in a long, dark tunnel, at the end of which he saw a light and Paradise. As he entered into this light, he saw the Theotokos, who asked his Guardian Angel why he was there. The Angel then related to her the details of the boys death. At this, the Theotokos turned to him and said, Your mother has prayed fervently to me for your return, and my Son has granted her request. The boy, overwhelmed by the beauty of Paradise, begged to remain. The Mother of God, however, replied: No. For the sake of your mother, you must return. But hear me: You must confess the sin that you committed a month ago. This is a frightful sin, and unless you confess it to a Priest, behold what will happen to you. At these words, the Theotokos asked the Archangel Michael to escort him to a precipice that overlooked the torments of Hell. The view was so frightening that the boy almost fainted. Afterwards, he re-traced his path through the dark tunnel, down through the heavens, over the city in which he lived, over his house, and then into the room where his family was gathered over his dead body. Then, feeling a tremendous pressure on his body, his soul returned to its place and he opened his eyes. He then related to his family all that had happened to him. His grieving mother, on hearing all that he told them, gave thanks to the Theotokos for her intervention with Christ on the boys behalf, and, weeping uncontrollably, embraced and warmly kissed him.

+ + +
Another teenage boy also fell to the sin of self-abuse and, again out of shame, failed to confess it to his spiritual Father. It so happened that he contracted a fatal disease and was dying. His family sent word to the boys Confessor about his condition, but were unable to find him before the boy died. At the time of his death, the young man's soul was seized by two horrible demons, which began to drag him to a place of terrible torment. In the meantime, the boys spiritual Father arrived at his home and found the grieving family. If you had come earlier, they cried, you might have prevented his death. Please, please bring him back. The Priest began to pray and, lo, a miracle occurred. The boy indeed returned to life. He immediately cried out to his Confessor, You have saved me. And he then began to relate to him his terrible encounter with the demonic forces that, just before his revival, were on the verge of casting him into Hell. Not knowing of the boys sin, the Priest asked of him, How could this have happened to you? Why would these demons claim your soul? The boy then confessed his misdeed. Do you sincerely repent of this, my son, the Priest asked. Yes, the youth replied. Are you sure? the Priest asked once more. The boy replied, O yes, Father! The Priest then continued: And do you want to go to Heaven? You mean I can be with my Christ right now? the boy exclaimed. His spiritual Father assured him that he could. Then I wish to die, the boy said, crossing his arms on his chest. The Priest made the sign of the Cross on the boy, and the youth, closing his eyes, blissfully reposed.


IRC, we dealt with this somewhere on this thread.  In short, such "evidence" is like the Vatican's reliance on visionaries when thought won't sustain its argument.
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« Reply #213 on: August 23, 2011, 05:06:24 AM »

There is a devil associated with this sin. One man went to elder Arseny and asked him about this sin. He told Father Arseny he is dreaming a demon. Father Arseny showed him a picture with demons and asked the young man, which one and the young man selected one and Father Arseny asked him to look at the demon name and when he looked he read, masturbation demon.

Prayer can help dearly. Somebody went to a monk requesting help with this sin and he dreamed a demon. Some time later he heard a voice saying you do it one more time I am going to take the girl from you. He felt into the sin one more time and his family was broken and the girl was taken from him.

So I would say prayer can help.

While in married state, you may not be allowed to do perversion.
A catalogue of demons, eh?  Is that like an icon catalogue?
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« Reply #214 on: August 23, 2011, 05:12:09 AM »

Father Arseny was a monk near my city that let people witness "live" the miracles like in the bIble. So for me to believe Bible is natural. No the demons were painted on a Church I believe maybe as a way to indicate the authors of sins since Father Arseny was painter.
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« Reply #215 on: August 23, 2011, 05:25:11 AM »

Father Arseny was a monk near my city that let people witness "live" the miracles like in the bIble. So for me to believe Bible is natural. No the demons were painted on a Church I believe maybe as a way to indicate the authors of sins since Father Arseny was painter.
Where did disbelief in the Bible come into the picture? Huh
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #216 on: August 23, 2011, 06:43:08 AM »

Disbelief does not come into picture in this thread.
Through confession this sin ca be erased.
If this sin is overcome the vitality may come back. I admire the determination of some people to fight sin.
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« Reply #217 on: August 23, 2011, 07:18:06 AM »

In normal times the Church directs behaviour with goal of sending people to Heaven. When I was youg the state regulated behaviour with what state deemed good for state. Like it become good to die for state instead of dying for Jesus. Now the companies regulate the moral. So what is good for companioes to sell stuff like preservatives so you can hear statistics of how much sex do different nations have as a way to drive up consume even if this destroys society and send people to Hell and make people sick. May God help us exit this situation.
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« Reply #218 on: August 23, 2011, 07:53:41 PM »

Quote from: pasadi97
So what is good for companioes to sell stuff like preservatives so you can hear statistics of how much sex do different nations have as a way to drive up consume even if this destroys society and send people to Hell and make people sick.

What?
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« Reply #219 on: August 23, 2011, 08:26:19 PM »

Quote from: pasadi97
So what is good for companioes to sell stuff like preservatives so you can hear statistics of how much sex do different nations have as a way to drive up consume even if this destroys society and send people to Hell and make people sick.

What?

Now if you want to accuse pasadi of creating riddles . . .

Pure brilliance to me, not that I understand it usually. But I do know brilliance when I see it.

(no riddle)
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« Reply #220 on: August 23, 2011, 08:29:58 PM »

In normal times the Church directs behaviour with goal of sending people to Heaven. When I was youg the state regulated behaviour with what state deemed good for state. Like it become good to die for state instead of dying for Jesus. Now the companies regulate the moral. So what is good for companioes to sell stuff like preservatives so you can hear statistics of how much sex do different nations have as a way to drive up consume even if this destroys society and send people to Hell and make people sick. May God help us exit this situation.

Actually in context I think I get the point.

When the Church is able to govern then they pass laws which help people lead properly moral lives.

When the State is able to govern then they pass laws which help them to lead lives useful to the State with little regard for what the Church would want.

When multinationals govern then they pass laws (let's be honest) which increase profits with absolute no regard for what the Church would want nor God.

(solved riddle)
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« Reply #221 on: August 23, 2011, 08:37:37 PM »

Quote from: pasadi97
So what is good for companioes to sell stuff like preservatives so you can hear statistics of how much sex do different nations have as a way to drive up consume even if this destroys society and send people to Hell and make people sick.

What?
LOL. pasaia I gather is a native Romanian speaker. "prezervativ" is the word for condom.  "preservatives" is "conservanți"

I remember when someone went home to the village, after decades in the US.  When she was talking about life in the US, the villagers woundered about food lasting so long.  She coulnd't think of the word for preservatives, so she just used the English.  The villagers were quite shocked that the Americans packed their food in such things.
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« Reply #222 on: August 23, 2011, 08:43:18 PM »

Disbelief does not come into picture in this thread.
Through confession this sin ca be erased.
If this sin is overcome the vitality may come back. I admire the determination of some people to fight sin.
I think we are working with different definitions of sin, and what it includes.

I'm curious, though, by what you mean about "vitality" coming back.
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« Reply #223 on: August 23, 2011, 08:55:09 PM »

Quote from: pasadi97
So what is good for companioes to sell stuff like preservatives so you can hear statistics of how much sex do different nations have as a way to drive up consume even if this destroys society and send people to Hell and make people sick.

What?
LOL. pasaia I gather is a native Romanian speaker. "prezervativ" is the word for condom.  "preservatives" is "conservanți"

I remember when someone went home to the village, after decades in the US.  When she was talking about life in the US, the villagers woundered about food lasting so long.  She coulnd't think of the word for preservatives, so she just used the English.  The villagers were quite shocked that the Americans packed their food in such things.

Romanian was my guess as well. No linguistic reason. Just the crazy brilliance seemed uniquely Romanian.
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« Reply #224 on: August 23, 2011, 09:09:03 PM »

Btw, there is a Talmudic reference to "adultery of the hand" as being masturbation (it seems mentioned only twice in the whole of the Talmud), which some modern exegetes have linked to Christ speaking about plucking out eyes and cutting off hands
http://books.google.com/books?id=BYQETG1oFyQC&pg=PA524&dq=adultery+of+the+hand+masturbation&hl=en#v=onepage&q=adultery%20of%20the%20hand%20masturbation&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=BYQETG1oFyQC&pg=PA524&dq=adultery+of+the+hand+masturbation&hl=en#v=onepage&q=adultery%20of%20the%20hand%20masturbation&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=ZFbjyIn6j4oC&pg=PA84&dq=adultery+of+the+hand+masturbation&hl=en#v=onepage&q=adultery%20of%20the%20hand%20masturbation&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=MejYAAAAMAAJ&q=adultery+of+the+hand+masturbation&dq=adultery+of+the+hand+masturbation&hl=en

http://books.google.com/books?id=NDT28Gh2bcoC&pg=PT293&dq=adultery+of+the+hand+masturbation&hl=en#v=onepage&q=adultery%20of%20the%20hand%20masturbation&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=wfNBQP2UaMEC&pg=PA672&dq=adultery+of+the+hand+masturbation&hl=en#v=onepage&q=adultery%20of%20the%20hand%20masturbation&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=X_nXKtNw7IwC&pg=PA122&dq=adultery+of+the+hand+masturbation&hl=en#v=onepage&q=adultery%20of%20the%20hand%20masturbation&f=false
but I have not found any such interpretation from a Father, and I expect that they would have picked up on that if Christ intended it.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2011, 09:14:40 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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