So in your statement
I was referring to both in my answer.
OK, and anal intercourse?
It's not intercourse but it's still wrong.
And anal sex? Oral sex? (Clinton became famous with stating that's not sexual relations).
It's committing the sin of lust within marriage, yes...but it's not masturbation. Vaginal intercourse =/= masturbation.
you just demonstrated you don't know what masturbation is.
You insult my intelligence. Of course I know what it is, although vaginal intercourse is not masturbation,
So you don't think masturbation is a sin? How do you figure that?
That presumed it is a sin.
If a husband is feeling aroused one night but his wife is not interested, then the husband has to live with it—not go and "take care of it" himself.How about his wife taking care of it?
If he feels his wife is not fulfilling her marital duties, then they should go to their priest and talk about it.
But her sin does not give him permission to sin.
Just for fun, do you know what masturbation is? I mean outside the the parlance of a high school looker room.
OK, to be fair, to those who study human sexuality?
And to use the general parlance, I am sure you can see what people mean by using their partner as tool to masturbate, even when they are having vaginal intercourse?
This question issue ain't so simple.
Vaginal intercourse =/= masturbation. vaginal is redundant?
No, I was clarifying what I meant by intercourse. Since you like to equate masturbation with pretty much any sex act I figured I better clarify. It's laughable that you say Humanae Vitae creates an artificial distinction between artificial contraception and natural family planning, yet you yourself claim that even marital intercourse can be masturbation. Umm wut?
Obviously some secular authorities would equate oral and anal activity with being intercourse as well, but it is at that point that I would object on theological grounds since, at least from a Catholic standpoint, those activities are disordered (except for oral which is acceptable in the context of foreplay). I have heard oral and anal sex being referred to as a form of masturbation in moral theology, but I have never heard of regular ol' vaginal intercourse ever being referred to as masturbation in any context.
Your the one claiming the narrow definition of "masturbation," "intercourse," etc. Just thought I'd ask your authority on that.
I don't have one. Since you brought it up I figured you had one in mind.
I'm asking YOU for the quote.
I'm not sure what you are referring to. Quote?
Not all acts of lust and selfishness are masturbation. Masturbation is the manipulation of the sex organs for pleasure outside of intercourse.So anal intercourse isn't masturbation. Got it. Nor, for that matter then, homosexual male intercourse.
I've heard some people classify oral sex and anal sex as masturbation, but I think even that is a stretch from the usual meaning. To me, those are separate sexual sins altogether.LOL. What does Aquinas say?
I'm not appealing to theologians. I'm appealing to common sense and the common English usage of the words. You mind telling me why you think masturbation has such a broad meaning? I can give you quotes, but it comes from Merriam Webster:masturbation noun
- erotic stimulation especially of one's own genital organs commonly resulting in orgasm and achieved by manual or other bodily contact exclusive of sexual intercourse
, by instrumental manipulation, occasionally by sexual fantasies, or by various combinations of these agenciessexual intercourse noun
- heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : coitus
You said "sodomy." Up the thread I linked to where that included vaginal intercourse from behind.
No...I mean what I said.
You mean vaginal intercourse from behind.
yes, like homosexual intercourse.
That is how the OP started, but we've gone beyond that, e.g. You can't classify any sin of lust as masturbation. Masturbation is one type of sexual sin, but there are others.
That's not sodomy...that's "doggie style."
No, that's not the typical usage of the word, as "mutual masturbation" and other things are normally included.
Fine with me, though the thread was already way off topic before this conversation began. I'm not the one who expanded the term masturbation to include all the diverse sex acts besides just sex acts with oneself, which is the typical usage of the word and the topic that the OP had in mind.
Comes with experience I suppose: I used to work in a psych hospital where such things were common in patient histories.
You must know more rape victims than I do.
Sometimes they do. I'm speaking from experience, as hearing the crime related by real live people. Not angels dancing on a pinhead examined by a pinhead.
So you think a if a rape victim went in to report what happened, they would say "a man attacked me and used my body to masturbate himself"?
perhaps the survivor/victim.
Yes, it is, if you are using a person as a sexual tool.Again, sin of lust and masturbation are not synonyms. If that was the case then rape would be masturbation, and I don't know anyone that would classify it as such.
Perhaps we should continue this cheery subject on another thread, as this is no longer pastoral it seems. Or not.
Yes...but mutual masturbation is a far cry from claiming that even standard vaginal sexual relations can be masturbation, which is completely ludicrous.