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Author Topic: The Vatican and Unia more oppressive than the Stalinist Regime  (Read 10233 times) Average Rating: 0
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WetCatechumen
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« Reply #180 on: August 20, 2011, 07:47:19 PM »

I have a few points:

1. There are Chaldean Catholics, Assyrians, Syriac Catholics, and Syriac Orthodox who attend my Ruthenian parish. I know the difference.
Do they?

There are more Syriacs here simply because of social ties.
And they are not attending an Orthodox Church why?
Yay for insulting my friends, who have been through hell, and who are not known to you.
interesting that you see association with the Vatican as an insult.

The Orthodox Church isn't a social club.  They are free to associate with the Vatican and its communion, but not to call themselves Orthodox thereafter.  I don't need to know them to state that.

You have valid historical points. I will study your other post more in depth later. But in the future, please try to stop insulting the intelligence of my friends, or acting as if you know what their spiritual fathers have told them about where to go to church in the absence of a Syriac church.
If they are telling to commune with the Vatican over the Orthodox, they are leading them astray.

There is an Antiochian parish an hour's drive away, and a Greek Church an hour and a half's walk (37 minutes public transit, 10 minutes by car) away from your Ruthenian parish.  And if that isn't enough, there is a Coptic community in Albaqureque (St. Bishoy).
No, you insulted their intelligence by saying they didn't know the difference.

It's spelled Albuquerque, by the way. There is also an OCA church here, and a Russian church in Santa Fe, near the Antiochian church. I am friends with the priest of the Russian church, and I knew well the priest of the Greek church that was reassigned (I have met the new pastor but do not know him well). The former priest of the OCA church's brother was a Greek Catholic deacon at the Ruthenian parish (I believe he was Melkite before he jumped ship to OCA a year ago).

My very good Maronite friend was married at the Ruthenian church but had his wedding reception at the Greek church - many of the Greek church's Arabic speaking parishioners were in attendance to his wedding.

I have no idea what your ethnicity is, but all of the Eastern Catholics and Eastern and Oriental Orthodox here are very tight knit. Everyone is aware of exactly where and what the local parishes are. I even knew about the Coptic community (we have an agnostic who attended a Coptic church for many years without converting who attends our Ruthenian church weekly).

The point is, stop judging. Stop being rude. Stop assuming you know things about these people you don't. The Syriac Orthodox and the Syriac Catholics have a very different relationship than the Roman Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox.

And why would I take communing in a Catholic Church as an insult to them? Clearly, it was you saying they don't know the difference between their communions was an insult to their integrity and intelligence. I assure you, they do. They know it better than you.

Also, according to my Syriac Orthodox friends, if you are baptized in a Syriac Orthodox parish, you are Orthodox until you die, and if you are baptized in a Syriac Catholic parish, you are Catholic until the day you die. Do I understand this? No. But that is how the members of their communion view it. You're not them. You're not Oriental Orthodox. So stop trying to speak for them or pretend that they are the same as you.
neither of us are Oriental Orthodox, so I don't know who deputized you to speak for them or pretend that they are the same as you.

"until you die" huh?  What happens afterwards?

Since the Syriac Orthodox Church, like all the Orthodox Churches, recognize apostasy and conversion, such a statement makes little sense, except that a Syriac apostate who returns is not rebaptized.

I know the relationship of the Syriacs, Orthodox or in submission, as it is parrallel to that we have with the Melkites in submission to the Vatican.  It has nothing to do with Ruthenians.

Attending weddings and other events, or even attending with spouses who are in submission isn't what we were talking about.  We were (at least I was) talking about Orthodox taking communion from someone whose bishop is in no Orthodox dyptich or synod.
You are not worth talking to.

May the Lord bless you and keep you all the days of your life.
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« Reply #181 on: August 20, 2011, 07:49:05 PM »

Btw, on the Syriac Orthodox:
Quote
Official Statements  

Statement of the Orthodox Church of Antioch on the Theological Dialogue
On the Relations between the Eastern and Syrian Orthodox Churches, November 1991

A Synodal and Patriarchal Letter

To All Our Children, Protected by God, of the Holy See of Antioch

Beloved:

You must have heard of the continuous efforts for decades by our Church with the sister Syrian Orthodox Church to foster a better knowledge and understanding of both Churches, whether on the dogmatic or pastoral level. These attempts are nothing but a natural expression that the Orthodox Churches, and especially those within the Holy See of Antioch, are called to articulate the will of the Lord that all may be obe, just as the Son is One with the Heavenly Father (John 10:30).

It is our duty and that of our brothers in the Syrian Orthodox Church to witness to Christ in our Eastern region where He was born, preached, suffered, was buried and rose from the dead, ascended into Heaven, and sent down His Holy and Life Giving Spirit upon His holy Apostles.

All the meetings, the fellowship, the oral and written declarations meant that we belong to One Faith even though history had manifested our division more than the aspects of our unity.

All this has called upon our Holy Synod of Antioch to bear witness to the progress of our Church in the See of Antioch towards unity that preserves for each Church its authentic Oriental heritage whereby the one Antiochean Church benefits from its sister Church and is enriched in its traditions, literature and holy rituals.

Every endeavour and pursuit in the direction of the coming together of the two Churches is based on the conviction that this orientation is from the Holy Spirit, and it will give the Eastern Orthodox image more light and radiance, that it has lacked for centuries before.

Having recognised the efforts done in the direction of unity between the two Churches, and being convinced that this direction was inspired by the Holy Spirit and projects a radiant image of Eastern Christanity overshadowed during centuries, the Holy Synod of the Church of Antioch saw the need to give a concrete expression of the close fellowship between the two Churches, the Syrian Orthodox Church and the Eastern Orthodox for the edification of their faithful.

Thus, the following decisions were taken:

1. We affirm the total and mutual respect of the spirituality, heritage and Holy Fathers of both Churches. The integrity of both the Byzantine and Syriac liturgies is to be preserved.

2. The heritage of the Fathers in both Churches and their traditions as a whole should be integrated into Christian education curricula and theological studies. Exchanges of professors and students are to be enhanced.

3. Both Churches shall refrain from accepting any faithful from accepting any faithful from one Church into the membership of the other, irrespective of all motivations or reasons.

4. Meetings between the two Churches, at the level of their Synods, according to the will of the two Churches, will be held whenever the need arsies.

5. Every Church will remain the reference and authority for its faithful, pertaining to matters of persoanl status (marriage, divorce, adoption etc.).

6. If bishops of the two Churches participate at a holy baptism or funeral service, the one belonging to the Church of the baptized or deceased will preside. In case of a holy matrimony service, the bishop of the bridegroom's Church will preside.

7. The above mentioned is not applicable to the concelebration in the Divine Liturgy.

8. What applies to bishops equally applies to the priests of both Churches.

9. In localities where there is only one priest, from either Church, he will celebrate services for the faithful of both Churches, including the Divien Liturgy, pastoral duties, and holy matrimony. He will keep an independent record for each Church and transmit that of the sister Church to its authorities.

10. If two priests of the two Churches happen to be in a locality where there is only one Church, they take turns in making use of its facilities.

11. If a bishop from one Church and a priest from the sister Church happen to concelebrate a service, the first will preside even when it is the priest's parish.

12. Ordinations into the holy orders are performed by the authorities of each Church for its own members. It would be advisable to invite the faithful of the sister Church to attend.

13. Godfathers, godmothers (in baptism) and witnesses in holy matrimony can be chosen from the members of the sister Church.

14. Both Churches will exchange visits and will co-operate in the various areas of social, cultural and educational work.

We ask God's help to continue strengthening our relations with the sister Church, and with other Churches, so that we all become one community under one Shepherd.

12.11.1991
Patriarch Ignatios IV
Damascus
 
http://www.orthodoxunity.org/state13.php

and the Copts:
Quote
Pastoral Agreement between the Coptic Orthodox and Greek Orthodox Patriarchates of Alexandria

Since the Holy Synods of both the Coptic Orthodox Church and the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria and all Africa have already accepted the outcome of the official dialogue on Christology between the Orthodox Church and the Oriental Orthodox Churches, including the two official agreements: the first on Christology signed in June 1989 in Egypt and the second also on Christology and on the lifting of anathemas and restoration of full communion signed in Geneva 1990, in which it is stated that "In the light of our agreed statement on Christology..., we have now clearly understood that both families have always loyally maintained the same authentic Orthodox Christological faith, and the unbroken continuity of Apostolic tradition". It was agreed to have mutual recognition of the sacrament of Baptism, based on what St Paul wrote, "One Lord, one faith, one baptism" (Eph 4:5)

But since up until now we are waiting for the responses of the Holy Synods of some other churches in both families, the restoration of full communion is not yet reached between the two sides of the bi-lateral dialogue. And due to the pastoral consequences and implications caued by mixed Christian marriages between the members of the two Patriarchates of Alexandria, having the majority of their people living in the same countries. Those marriages being difficult to perform in both Churches at the same time or in concelebration. The result is that mant sensitivities are created between the two families of the partners of such marriage. Those sensitivities which can extend even after the marriage and may affect the relation between the two communities of churches.

For those mentioned reasons, the Holy Synods of both Patriarchates have agreed to accept the sacrament of marriage which is conducted in either Church with the condition that it is conducted for two partners not belonging to the same Patriarchate of the other Church from their origin. Both the Bride and the Groom should carry a valid certificate from his/her own Patriarchate that he/she has a permit of marriage and indicating the details of his/her marriage status up to date.

Each of the two Patriarchates shall also accept to perform all of its other sacraments to that new family of Mixed Christian Marriage.

It is agreed that the Patriarchate which shall perform the marriage shall be responsible for any marriage problems that may happen concerning this certain marriage, taking into consideration the unified marriage laws signed by the heads of Churches in Egypt in the year 1999.

Each Patriarchate shall preserve its right not to give its sacraments to any persons whom she does not find fulfilling its canons according to the Apostolic Tradition.

Petros VII
Pope and Patriarch of Alexandria and All Africa Shenouda III
Pope of Alexandria and Patriarch of the See of St Mark
http://www.orthodoxunity.org/state05.php
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« Reply #182 on: August 20, 2011, 08:24:56 PM »

I have a few points:

1. There are Chaldean Catholics, Assyrians, Syriac Catholics, and Syriac Orthodox who attend my Ruthenian parish. I know the difference.
Do they?

There are more Syriacs here simply because of social ties.
And they are not attending an Orthodox Church why?
Yay for insulting my friends, who have been through hell, and who are not known to you.
interesting that you see association with the Vatican as an insult.

The Orthodox Church isn't a social club.  They are free to associate with the Vatican and its communion, but not to call themselves Orthodox thereafter.  I don't need to know them to state that.

You have valid historical points. I will study your other post more in depth later. But in the future, please try to stop insulting the intelligence of my friends, or acting as if you know what their spiritual fathers have told them about where to go to church in the absence of a Syriac church.
If they are telling to commune with the Vatican over the Orthodox, they are leading them astray.

There is an Antiochian parish an hour's drive away, and a Greek Church an hour and a half's walk (37 minutes public transit, 10 minutes by car) away from your Ruthenian parish.  And if that isn't enough, there is a Coptic community in Albaqureque (St. Bishoy).
No, you insulted their intelligence by saying they didn't know the difference.

It's spelled Albuquerque, by the way. There is also an OCA church here, and a Russian church in Santa Fe, near the Antiochian church. I am friends with the priest of the Russian church, and I knew well the priest of the Greek church that was reassigned (I have met the new pastor but do not know him well). The former priest of the OCA church's brother was a Greek Catholic deacon at the Ruthenian parish (I believe he was Melkite before he jumped ship to OCA a year ago).

My very good Maronite friend was married at the Ruthenian church but had his wedding reception at the Greek church - many of the Greek church's Arabic speaking parishioners were in attendance to his wedding.

I have no idea what your ethnicity is, but all of the Eastern Catholics and Eastern and Oriental Orthodox here are very tight knit. Everyone is aware of exactly where and what the local parishes are. I even knew about the Coptic community (we have an agnostic who attended a Coptic church for many years without converting who attends our Ruthenian church weekly).

The point is, stop judging. Stop being rude. Stop assuming you know things about these people you don't. The Syriac Orthodox and the Syriac Catholics have a very different relationship than the Roman Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox.

And why would I take communing in a Catholic Church as an insult to them? Clearly, it was you saying they don't know the difference between their communions was an insult to their integrity and intelligence. I assure you, they do. They know it better than you.

Also, according to my Syriac Orthodox friends, if you are baptized in a Syriac Orthodox parish, you are Orthodox until you die, and if you are baptized in a Syriac Catholic parish, you are Catholic until the day you die. Do I understand this? No. But that is how the members of their communion view it. You're not them. You're not Oriental Orthodox. So stop trying to speak for them or pretend that they are the same as you.
neither of us are Oriental Orthodox, so I don't know who deputized you to speak for them or pretend that they are the same as you.

"until you die" huh?  What happens afterwards?

Since the Syriac Orthodox Church, like all the Orthodox Churches, recognize apostasy and conversion, such a statement makes little sense, except that a Syriac apostate who returns is not rebaptized.

I know the relationship of the Syriacs, Orthodox or in submission, as it is parrallel to that we have with the Melkites in submission to the Vatican.  It has nothing to do with Ruthenians.

Attending weddings and other events, or even attending with spouses who are in submission isn't what we were talking about.  We were (at least I was) talking about Orthodox taking communion from someone whose bishop is in no Orthodox dyptich or synod.

I think that's called grass-roots communion.

and I think you are silly for posing that you know what will happen to any of them after death...

Your hubris is showing...
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« Reply #183 on: August 20, 2011, 08:29:07 PM »

You are not worth talking to.

May the Lord bless you and keep you all the days of your life.

Have you noticed how shrill he's gotten lately. 

The heat must be up in the kitchen.
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« Reply #184 on: August 20, 2011, 08:41:41 PM »

"Lately"?
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« Reply #185 on: August 20, 2011, 09:21:34 PM »

"Lately"?

 Smiley
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« Reply #186 on: August 20, 2011, 10:12:04 PM »

I have a few points:

1. There are Chaldean Catholics, Assyrians, Syriac Catholics, and Syriac Orthodox who attend my Ruthenian parish. I know the difference.
Do they?

There are more Syriacs here simply because of social ties.
And they are not attending an Orthodox Church why?
Yay for insulting my friends, who have been through hell, and who are not known to you.
interesting that you see association with the Vatican as an insult.

The Orthodox Church isn't a social club.  They are free to associate with the Vatican and its communion, but not to call themselves Orthodox thereafter.  I don't need to know them to state that.

You have valid historical points. I will study your other post more in depth later. But in the future, please try to stop insulting the intelligence of my friends, or acting as if you know what their spiritual fathers have told them about where to go to church in the absence of a Syriac church.
If they are telling to commune with the Vatican over the Orthodox, they are leading them astray.

There is an Antiochian parish an hour's drive away, and a Greek Church an hour and a half's walk (37 minutes public transit, 10 minutes by car) away from your Ruthenian parish.  And if that isn't enough, there is a Coptic community in Albaqureque (St. Bishoy).
No, you insulted their intelligence by saying they didn't know the difference.

It's spelled Albuquerque, by the way. There is also an OCA church here, and a Russian church in Santa Fe, near the Antiochian church. I am friends with the priest of the Russian church, and I knew well the priest of the Greek church that was reassigned (I have met the new pastor but do not know him well). The former priest of the OCA church's brother was a Greek Catholic deacon at the Ruthenian parish (I believe he was Melkite before he jumped ship to OCA a year ago).

My very good Maronite friend was married at the Ruthenian church but had his wedding reception at the Greek church - many of the Greek church's Arabic speaking parishioners were in attendance to his wedding.

I have no idea what your ethnicity is, but all of the Eastern Catholics and Eastern and Oriental Orthodox here are very tight knit. Everyone is aware of exactly where and what the local parishes are. I even knew about the Coptic community (we have an agnostic who attended a Coptic church for many years without converting who attends our Ruthenian church weekly).

The point is, stop judging. Stop being rude. Stop assuming you know things about these people you don't. The Syriac Orthodox and the Syriac Catholics have a very different relationship than the Roman Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox.

And why would I take communing in a Catholic Church as an insult to them? Clearly, it was you saying they don't know the difference between their communions was an insult to their integrity and intelligence. I assure you, they do. They know it better than you.

Also, according to my Syriac Orthodox friends, if you are baptized in a Syriac Orthodox parish, you are Orthodox until you die, and if you are baptized in a Syriac Catholic parish, you are Catholic until the day you die. Do I understand this? No. But that is how the members of their communion view it. You're not them. You're not Oriental Orthodox. So stop trying to speak for them or pretend that they are the same as you.
neither of us are Oriental Orthodox, so I don't know who deputized you to speak for them or pretend that they are the same as you.

"until you die" huh?  What happens afterwards?

Since the Syriac Orthodox Church, like all the Orthodox Churches, recognize apostasy and conversion, such a statement makes little sense, except that a Syriac apostate who returns is not rebaptized.

I know the relationship of the Syriacs, Orthodox or in submission, as it is parrallel to that we have with the Melkites in submission to the Vatican.  It has nothing to do with Ruthenians.

Attending weddings and other events, or even attending with spouses who are in submission isn't what we were talking about.  We were (at least I was) talking about Orthodox taking communion from someone whose bishop is in no Orthodox dyptich or synod.

I think that's called grass-roots communion.
no, I know that's called communion unto judgment and condemnation.

and I think you are silly for posing that you know what will happen to any of them after death...
and I know you are silly for posing that you know what will happen to them before or after death.

Your hubris is showing...
the falsity of your "knowledge" so called is showing.
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« Reply #187 on: August 20, 2011, 10:14:30 PM »

"Lately"?
Yes, EM says lately, to convince herself she is getting somewhere.

The heat is up in the kitchen because I have to burn all those tares that someone has been trying to sneak into our pure Apostolic recipes.
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« Reply #188 on: August 20, 2011, 10:40:41 PM »

The heat is up in the kitchen because I have to burn all those tares that someone has been trying to sneak into our pure Apostolic recipes.
Apostolic? The Apostles don't condone schism.
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« Reply #189 on: August 20, 2011, 10:54:00 PM »

He knows nothing about both things. They cannot be compared. Union was a great spiritual catastrophe but materially it changed nothing. On the other hand Stalinist terror harmed people but stimulated the faith.

I totally agree that he knows nothing about both things. Moreover, even an attempt to compare these two things is a sign of a hopeless moral relativism. It's almost like I would say, "yes, Stalin murdered millions of people, but in the USA, there are these telemarketers that can drive you crazy."
Hardly.
Quote
The Uniate and Papist propaganda that is being promulgated in these countries today is ruthless and inexorable to the point that the Orthodox view the behavior of the Stalinist régime as more benevolent than that of the Vatican and the Unia towards them. There is no validity at all in the argument that the Unia “was attacked by the red violence of Communism and spent time in the catacombs,” something which rests on the assumption that the Uniates of Eastern Europe are characterized by an attitude of “resistance.” But can we forget the treacherous and unpatriotic rôle of the Unia in these countries? Because of the Vatican’s “concordat” with the Nazi régime, not only did the Uniates collaborate with the Nazi invaders, but they carried out horrible and bloody persecutions against the Orthodox—and these persecutions, unfortunately, are continued even today.
or didn't the Nazis kill people?
I don't think, though, that the "Unia" was a great spiritual catastrophe. It was, and is, a success of our brothers and sisters Roman Catholics.
It wasn't even that, as it demonstrated to those foolish enough to take the Vatican at its word, what "union" meant, and alerted the rest of the Orthodox to look beyond the glossy brouchures for "reunion."

That they and us Orthodox aren't together anymore is a lot bigger spiritual catastrophe, and for that we bear as much guilt, if not more, than them.
because we won't embrace their heresies?  May we be forever guilty!
Isa, whom are you quoting in the material I've highlighted above? I don't see your source identified. Please name this source within the next 48 hours. Thank you.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2011, 10:55:28 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #190 on: August 20, 2011, 11:25:02 PM »

He knows nothing about both things. They cannot be compared. Union was a great spiritual catastrophe but materially it changed nothing. On the other hand Stalinist terror harmed people but stimulated the faith.

I totally agree that he knows nothing about both things. Moreover, even an attempt to compare these two things is a sign of a hopeless moral relativism. It's almost like I would say, "yes, Stalin murdered millions of people, but in the USA, there are these telemarketers that can drive you crazy."
Hardly.
Quote
The Uniate and Papist propaganda that is being promulgated in these countries today is ruthless and inexorable to the point that the Orthodox view the behavior of the Stalinist régime as more benevolent than that of the Vatican and the Unia towards them. There is no validity at all in the argument that the Unia “was attacked by the red violence of Communism and spent time in the catacombs,” something which rests on the assumption that the Uniates of Eastern Europe are characterized by an attitude of “resistance.” But can we forget the treacherous and unpatriotic rôle of the Unia in these countries? Because of the Vatican’s “concordat” with the Nazi régime, not only did the Uniates collaborate with the Nazi invaders, but they carried out horrible and bloody persecutions against the Orthodox—and these persecutions, unfortunately, are continued even today.
or didn't the Nazis kill people?
I don't think, though, that the "Unia" was a great spiritual catastrophe. It was, and is, a success of our brothers and sisters Roman Catholics.
It wasn't even that, as it demonstrated to those foolish enough to take the Vatican at its word, what "union" meant, and alerted the rest of the Orthodox to look beyond the glossy brouchures for "reunion."

That they and us Orthodox aren't together anymore is a lot bigger spiritual catastrophe, and for that we bear as much guilt, if not more, than them.
because we won't embrace their heresies?  May we be forever guilty!
Isa, whom are you quoting in the material I've highlighted above? I don't see your source identified. Please name this source within the next 48 hours. Thank you.
The article linked in the OP, the "he" of Michał and Heorhij's posts.
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« Reply #191 on: August 20, 2011, 11:26:21 PM »

The heat is up in the kitchen because I have to burn all those tares that someone has been trying to sneak into our pure Apostolic recipes.
Apostolic? The Apostles don't condone schism.
Well, that leaves you out in the dark now, doesn't it.
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« Reply #192 on: August 20, 2011, 11:50:52 PM »


because we won't embrace their heresies?  May we be forever guilty!

And they forever right?

Tags edited - MK.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2011, 01:24:19 AM by Michał Kalina » Logged

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« Reply #193 on: August 21, 2011, 12:05:03 AM »


because we won't embrace their heresies?  May we be forever guilty!

And they forever right?
they would have to be right once first.
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« Reply #194 on: August 21, 2011, 08:14:16 AM »

My heart is heavy this morning after I read the explosion on this thread of the last few hours. The bolded charges leveled against the Greek Catholics of Europe was uncalled for and, if intended to cast guilt by association against millions of pious Greek Catholic faithful represents a misrepresentation of the highest degree. This is the type of excessive rhetoric that advocates on the fringes of our respective Churches have used in the centuries- long battles that have raged along the fault lines of the Great Schism. Our Heavenly Father knows that the blood of countless innocents is upon the hands of many over the centuries who claimed to be acting on His behalf. Let Him be the Judge. I, for one, shall remember the martyrs and the pious faithful of all faiths this morning during Liturgy and pray for those whose hearts and minds are so hardened as to carry on and on with the distortions and misrepresentations that all involved have utilized in our 'unholy' wars against each other, - especially so during the Litany of Supplication: "Having prayed for the unity of faith and the communion of the Holy Spirit, let us commend ourselves and one another, and our whole life to Christ our God."
. Lord, have mercy.
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« Reply #195 on: August 21, 2011, 12:37:31 PM »

The heat is up in the kitchen because I have to burn all those tares that someone has been trying to sneak into our pure Apostolic recipes.
Apostolic? The Apostles don't condone schism.
Well, that leaves you out in the dark now, doesn't it.
No it doesn't actually.
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« Reply #196 on: August 21, 2011, 12:54:47 PM »

My heart is heavy this morning after I read the explosion on this thread of the last few hours. The bolded charges leveled against the Greek Catholics of Europe was uncalled for and, if intended to cast guilt by association against millions of pious Greek Catholic faithful represents a misrepresentation of the highest degree. This is the type of excessive rhetoric that advocates on the fringes of our respective Churches have used in the centuries- long battles that have raged along the fault lines of the Great Schism. Our Heavenly Father knows that the blood of countless innocents is upon the hands of many over the centuries who claimed to be acting on His behalf. Let Him be the Judge. I, for one, shall remember the martyrs and the pious faithful of all faiths this morning during Liturgy and pray for those whose hearts and minds are so hardened as to carry on and on with the distortions and misrepresentations that all involved have utilized in our 'unholy' wars against each other, - especially so during the Litany of Supplication: "Having prayed for the unity of faith and the communion of the Holy Spirit, let us commend ourselves and one another, and our whole life to Christ our God."
. Lord, have mercy.

Amen and amen.
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« Reply #197 on: August 21, 2011, 01:28:22 PM »

"Lately"?
Yes, EM says lately, to convince herself she is getting somewhere.

The heat is up in the kitchen because I have to burn all those tares that someone has been trying to sneak into our pure Apostolic recipes.

I mentioned your self-professed penchant for "destruction" with respect to my Church not too long ago and you demanded a reference.  I figured if I waited long enough, there'd be another one appear.

Here it is.

M.
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« Reply #198 on: August 21, 2011, 01:30:39 PM »

I wonder if we can add Stalin to the list of names which qualify for Godwin's Law- in other words, when you throw that term at someone, you automatically lose the argument.

 Undecided
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« Reply #199 on: August 21, 2011, 01:37:25 PM »

...and pray for those whose hearts and minds are so hardened as to carry on and on with the distortions and misrepresentations that all involved have utilized in our 'unholy' wars against each other,

One of the things your generally irenic notes fail to consider is the fact that there are no Catholics on this Forum who ever use the language of irradiation or destruction with respect to Orthodoxy, nor do they point out failings of Orthodoxy EXCEPT to note that the destructive language used against the Church of my baptism is often a double standard.    In this way your presumably sincere hope for peace fails...in this environment.

In Christ,

Mary

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« Reply #200 on: August 21, 2011, 02:45:58 PM »

Btw, on the Syriac Orthodox:
Quote
Official Statements  

.org/state05.php

Anyone can set up a web page.  Where are these "official documents" on the web pages of the respective Orthodox churches?

I have been burned by the Cathoics claiming the EP supported "dual communion" all over the web and in their newspapers when it was titally false
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« Reply #201 on: August 21, 2011, 04:32:05 PM »

...and pray for those whose hearts and minds are so hardened as to carry on and on with the distortions and misrepresentations that all involved have utilized in our 'unholy' wars against each other,

One of the things your generally irenic notes fail to consider is the fact that there are no Catholics on this Forum who ever use the language of irradiation or destruction with respect to Orthodoxy, nor do they point out failings of Orthodoxy EXCEPT to note that the destructive language used against the Church of my baptism is often a double standard.    In this way your presumably sincere hope for peace fails...in this environment.

In Christ,

Mary



True, but there are plenty of Catholics on Catholic Forums who use ridiculous assertions etc. against the Orthodox. I take consolation from the REAL WORLD, where things are more civil, for the most part.
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« Reply #202 on: August 21, 2011, 06:47:42 PM »

...and pray for those whose hearts and minds are so hardened as to carry on and on with the distortions and misrepresentations that all involved have utilized in our 'unholy' wars against each other,

One of the things your generally irenic notes fail to consider is the fact that there are no Catholics on this Forum who ever use the language of irradiation or destruction with respect to Orthodoxy, nor do they point out failings of Orthodoxy EXCEPT to note that the destructive language used against the Church of my baptism is often a double standard.    In this way your presumably sincere hope for peace fails...in this environment.

In Christ,

Mary



True, but there are plenty of Catholics on Catholic Forums who use ridiculous assertions etc. against the Orthodox. I take consolation from the REAL WORLD, where things are more civil, for the most part.

OK!!...I am with you now. 

I get caught thinking and writing in the same way.  I take a broad brush to a narrow space.  Often I will write to a friend, an Orthodox correspondent, and I speak of things out of my experiences and he often becomes distressed because he feels as though I am aiming directly at him.  So I see what you've done and in that light it is most reasonable!!

I am not upset with you.  And I will NEVER bait you...just for the record  Smiley

Mary
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« Reply #203 on: August 21, 2011, 09:08:39 PM »

Btw, on the Syriac Orthodox:
Quote
Official Statements  

.org/state05.php

Anyone can set up a web page.  Where are these "official documents" on the web pages of the respective Orthodox churches?

I have been burned by the Cathoics claiming the EP supported "dual communion" all over the web and in their newspapers when it was titally false
They may not be official translations, but they are the official documents.  I've seen both officially promulgated in Arabic (I think the Egyptian one was also in Greek, and the Antiochian one in French).  On the Antiochian one, you can see it in the "Word" the official organ of the North American Archdiocese in '92.
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« Reply #204 on: August 21, 2011, 09:10:33 PM »

...and pray for those whose hearts and minds are so hardened as to carry on and on with the distortions and misrepresentations that all involved have utilized in our 'unholy' wars against each other,

One of the things your generally irenic notes fail to consider is the fact that there are no Catholics on this Forum who ever use the language of irradiation or destruction with respect to Orthodoxy, nor do they point out failings of Orthodoxy EXCEPT to note that the destructive language used against the Church of my baptism is often a double standard.    In this way your presumably sincere hope for peace fails...in this environment.
My, the kettle is quite blind.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #205 on: August 21, 2011, 09:13:02 PM »

"Lately"?
Yes, EM says lately, to convince herself she is getting somewhere.

The heat is up in the kitchen because I have to burn all those tares that someone has been trying to sneak into our pure Apostolic recipes.

I mentioned your self-professed penchant for "destruction" with respect to my Church not too long ago and you demanded a reference.  I figured if I waited long enough, there'd be another one appear.

Here it is.
only if our Church is your "Church"'s kitchen.

but then, being an Ultramontanist, you would think that .

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #206 on: August 21, 2011, 09:15:26 PM »

The heat is up in the kitchen because I have to burn all those tares that someone has been trying to sneak into our pure Apostolic recipes.
Apostolic? The Apostles don't condone schism.
Well, that leaves you out in the dark now, doesn't it.
No it doesn't actually.
John 9:41.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #207 on: August 22, 2011, 03:13:47 PM »

He knows nothing about both things. They cannot be compared. Union was a great spiritual catastrophe but materially it changed nothing. On the other hand Stalinist terror harmed people but stimulated the faith.

I totally agree that he knows nothing about both things. Moreover, even an attempt to compare these two things is a sign of a hopeless moral relativism. It's almost like I would say, "yes, Stalin murdered millions of people, but in the USA, there are these telemarketers that can drive you crazy."
Hardly.
Quote
The Uniate and Papist propaganda that is being promulgated in these countries today is ruthless and inexorable to the point that the Orthodox view the behavior of the Stalinist régime as more benevolent than that of the Vatican and the Unia towards them. There is no validity at all in the argument that the Unia “was attacked by the red violence of Communism and spent time in the catacombs,” something which rests on the assumption that the Uniates of Eastern Europe are characterized by an attitude of “resistance.” But can we forget the treacherous and unpatriotic rôle of the Unia in these countries? Because of the Vatican’s “concordat” with the Nazi régime, not only did the Uniates collaborate with the Nazi invaders, but they carried out horrible and bloody persecutions against the Orthodox—and these persecutions, unfortunately, are continued even today.
or didn't the Nazis kill people?
I don't think, though, that the "Unia" was a great spiritual catastrophe. It was, and is, a success of our brothers and sisters Roman Catholics.
It wasn't even that, as it demonstrated to those foolish enough to take the Vatican at its word, what "union" meant, and alerted the rest of the Orthodox to look beyond the glossy brouchures for "reunion."

That they and us Orthodox aren't together anymore is a lot bigger spiritual catastrophe, and for that we bear as much guilt, if not more, than them.
because we won't embrace their heresies?  May we be forever guilty!
Isa, whom are you quoting in the material I've highlighted above? I don't see your source identified. Please name this source within the next 48 hours. Thank you.
The article linked in the OP, the "he" of Michał and Heorhij's posts.
OK. Thank you.
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« Reply #208 on: August 23, 2011, 12:55:37 AM »

True, but there are plenty of Catholics on Catholic Forums who use ridiculous assertions etc. against the Orthodox.
That is true, but it appears here that things are reversed here. I would give examples, but that would derail the thread.
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« Reply #209 on: August 23, 2011, 04:40:53 AM »

but that would derail the thread.

funny....
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« Reply #210 on: August 23, 2011, 07:12:01 AM »

Isa, my brother,

As I think you well know, I generally avoid these kinds of threads like the plague (and fully support the comments made above by my friend and brother, podkarpatska). However, in this instance, your, assuredly unintentional, selective choices in posted documentation reluctantly push me to the point of contributing to the chaos.

I've no doubt that you intended to add, to the two statements of the Syriacs that you posted above, the Joint Statements of the Syriac Orthodox and Catholics? To save you the time of digging out the link, I've provided it and an excerpt.

I do, however, decline to post the entire text because, unlike many, I decry the waste of bandwidth that accompanies so many threads (speaking, of course, of threads which aren't themselves a waste of bandwidth) in which near entire coffee table-sized texts (replete with illustrations and maps) are posted, quoted, and requoted, in their entirety, ad infinitum.

Dialogue and Joint Declarations with the Roman Catholic Church - The second (if I remember correctly) of the declarations, while acknowledging the impossibility of concelebration at this time, allows for the provision of the Mysteries by presbyters of each Church (Syriac Orthodox and Catholic) to the faithful of its Sister Church as a matter of pastoral care.

Quote
8. Since it is the chief expression of Christian unity between the faithful and between Bishops and priests, the Holy Eucharist cannot yet be concelebrated by us. Such celebration supposes a complete identity of faith such as does not yet exist between us. Certain questions, in fact, still need to be resolved touching the Lord's will for His Church, as also the doctrinal implications and canonical details of the traditions proper to our communities which have been too long separated.

9. Our identity in faith, though not yet complete, entitles us to envisage collaboration between our Churches in pastoral care, in situations which nowadays are frequent both because of the dispersion of our faithful throughout the world and because of the precarious conditions of these difficult times. It is not rare, in fact, for our faithful to find access to a priest of their own Church materially or morally impossible. Anxious to meet their needs and with their spiritual benefit in mind, we authorize them in such cases to ask for the Sacraments of Penance, Eucharist and Anointing of the Sick from lawful priests of either of our two sister Churches, when they need them. It would be a logical corollary of collaboration in pastoral care to cooperate in priestly formation and theological education. Bishops are encouraged to promote sharing of facilities for theological education where they judge it to be advisable. While doing this we do not forget that we must still do all in our power to achieve the full visible communion between the Catholic Church and the Syrian Orthodox Church of Antioch and ceaselessly implore our Lord to grant us that unity which alone will enable us to give to the world a fully unanimous Gospel witness.

Just helping out  Grin

Many years,

Neil
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« Reply #211 on: August 23, 2011, 06:00:59 PM »

but that would derail the thread.

funny....
Why is that? Did you want the explicit examples?
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« Reply #212 on: August 24, 2011, 05:08:10 AM »

I thinks that that thread is already delayed so much that your post wouldn't do more harm to it.
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