Author Topic: Does God damn non-Orthodox Christians? (Read 20976 times)

Milica · « **on:** July 17, 2011, 01:32:59 PM »

What if there was a tribe somewhere that had never heard of Christianity? Do they still go to hell?

Asteriktos · « **Reply #1 on:** July 17, 2011, 01:44:53 PM »

I think this passage in Romans 2 hints at an answer...

"For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel." - Rom. 2:12-16

It seems that we're not judged by how much we know, but rather by what we do with the information that we do have. So, the tribe you mentioned would be judged based on how they responded to "the law written in their hearts". That's what I take from Paul, anyway, though I think there are a couple problems with this, but I think the above is a start anyway...

orthonorm · « **Reply #2 on:** July 17, 2011, 02:08:34 PM »

Yes and Orthodox ones as well.

Oh yeah, and what Asteriktos said.

sainthieu · « **Reply #3 on:** July 17, 2011, 03:49:11 PM »

Do they still go to hell?

No. Asterikos is correct.

sprtslvr1973 · « **Reply #4 on:** July 20, 2011, 04:47:46 PM »

What about those who have heard the Gospel and still choose to reject Christ? Will Satan, Judas, and the Unrepentant Thief be saved? One of the inconsistencies I see with Orthodox Christian circles is a simultaneous belief in Free Will and Universalism. I can not logically reconcile these two. If anything Universalism seems to work in better concert with Predestination; where even those who don't want to be saved are saved.

deusveritasest · « **Reply #5 on:** July 20, 2011, 04:59:05 PM »

Eternally damned? Really no one is yet eternally damned and we have no idea who will be in the end, if anyone.

Shanghaiski · « **Reply #6 on:** July 20, 2011, 05:09:13 PM »

Quote from: Milica on July 17, 2011, 01:32:59 PM

What if there was a tribe somewhere that had never heard of Christianity? Do they still go to hell?

Only if they choose to.

Shanghaiski · « **Reply #7 on:** July 20, 2011, 05:13:20 PM »

Quote from: sprtslvr1973 on July 20, 2011, 04:47:46 PM

What about those who have heard the Gospel and still choose to reject Christ? Will Satan, Judas, and the Unrepentant Thief be saved? One of the inconsistencies I see with Orthodox Christian circles is a simultaneous belief in Free Will and Universalism. I can not logically reconcile these two. If anything Universalism seems to work in better concert with Predestination; where even those who don't want to be saved are saved.

Universalism is a heresy, as is predestination as understood by most non-Orthodox.

This life we have to make our choice. Christ came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. All who want to be saved, He will save. But a choice must be made, and after that God assists with His grace.

Stephen St. Pierre · « **Reply #8 on:** July 20, 2011, 06:35:51 PM »

Fr. Bill Olnhausen writes:

"Does this mean that all now outside the Church will go to hell? No. Bishop Kallistos Ware suggests that “While there is no division between a `visible’ and an ‘invisible’ Church yet there may be members of the Church who are not visibly such, but whose membership is known to God alone. If anyone is saved, he must in some sense be a member of the Church; in what sense we cannot always say” (The Orthodox Church, p. 248, 1993 edition). Christ our God may be working in others in ways unknown to us and even to them, to bring them to salvation. And in due time, perhaps not till after death, they may recognize God and accept Christ and be united to His Body the Church-so that they can be saved.

This is in accord with the teaching of Christ. In the parable of the sheep and the goats (Matthew 25), notice that it is the “nations” (v. 32), the nonbelievers, who are being judged (this is obvious, because they are surprised to learn that Christ dwells in the needy), and some of them are welcomed into the “kingdom prepared for [them] from the foundation of the world” (v. 34).

Regarding God’s mysterious work outside the Orthodox Church, we have nothing to say. We make no judgments about what God is doing there, or about what happens to the souls of those who are not Orthodox or not Christian on earth. It is all we can do to try to “work out [our] own salvation with fear and trembling” (Philippians 2:12)."

(Originally found in Again magazine)

Taken from http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Christianity/Orthodox/2005/03/Do-All-Non-Orthodox-People-Go-To-Hell.aspx

According to GOARCH of America:

"An Orthodox scholar recently observed that there are basically three views that Christians have taken with regard to non-Christian religions. The first is that the non-Christian will be damned because there is no salvation outside the visible Body of Christ, the Church, The second is that the non-Christian may be saved in spite the religion he practices, but only through the mercy of God. The third is that the non-Christian may be saved by means of the very religion he practices, for nonChristian religions may also contain saving truths. These three views parallel the three approaches identified elsewhere as exclusivism. inclusivism and cultural pluralism.

The claim of exclusivism has been rejected by many Orthodox scholars as untenable. This is not done in the interests of facilitating missionary endeavors or to foster world peace. Exclusiveness is rejected as a matter of Truth. The majority of Orthodox scholars would accept inclusivism. Some Orthodox scholars espouse the view characterized as cultural pluralism but with qualifications. Relativism and syncretism are denied. And the view that Christianity is simply one of the world religions offering the blessing of salvation is not accepted. The focus, rather, is on the Spirit of God, the Paraclete, who leads us "Into all the truth," where in Christ all become one."

Read more @ http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/967951/posts

Cognomen · « **Reply #9 on:** July 20, 2011, 08:38:57 PM »

Quote from: Stephen St. Pierre on July 20, 2011, 06:35:51 PM

"An Orthodox scholar recently observed that there are basically three views that Christians have taken with regard to non-Christian religions. The first is that the non-Christian will be damned because there is no salvation outside the visible Body of Christ, the Church, The second is that the non-Christian may be saved in spite the religion he practices, but only through the mercy of God. The third is that the non-Christian may be saved by means of the very religion he practices, for nonChristian religions may also contain saving truths. These three views parallel the three approaches identified elsewhere as exclusivism. inclusivism and cultural pluralism.

The claim of exclusivism has been rejected by many Orthodox scholars as untenable. This is not done in the interests of facilitating missionary endeavors or to foster world peace. Exclusiveness is rejected as a matter of Truth. The majority of Orthodox scholars would accept inclusivism. Some Orthodox scholars espouse the view characterized as cultural pluralism but with qualifications. Relativism and syncretism are denied. And the view that Christianity is simply one of the world religions offering the blessing of salvation is not accepted. The focus, rather, is on the Spirit of God, the Paraclete, who leads us "Into all the truth," where in Christ all become one."

Glad to see that these Orthodox "scholars" view the teachings of many Holy Fathers and saints as "untenable." To be fair, the quote I'm picking on alluded to views of Christians, rather than those of Orthodox Christians.

So according to this final view, we would still be The Church, the Church with the correct beliefs, but it really doesn't matter because all religions are really the same anyway.

I'm not having a go at you, Stephen, just the information presented. I think it's a bit out there and believe the Romans explanation is a better representation of Orthodox views on the matter.

Stephen St. Pierre · « **Reply #10 on:** July 20, 2011, 08:55:56 PM »

Yeah, I just presented part of it... Did you read the whole thing or?

I think the gist of it is this: We know who has the Holy Spirit but it's not for us to say where He isn't.

Asteriktos · « **Reply #11 on:** July 20, 2011, 09:00:57 PM »

Quote from: Stephen St. Pierre on July 20, 2011, 08:55:56 PM

I think the gist of it is this: We know who has the Holy Spirit but it's not for us to say where He isn't.

We've discussed somethine like this before briefly, but frankly, I'm still rather hesitant about it all... and we would have to decide where/when/why/etc. 1) the Church, 2) Salvation, 3) Holy Spirit, etc. are involved... eh, I guess in the end it's in God's hands, and I have enough work to do on myself...

EDIT--On second thought, maybe that other thread is too different in content...

Cognomen · « **Reply #12 on:** July 20, 2011, 09:16:57 PM »

Quote from: Stephen St. Pierre on July 20, 2011, 08:55:56 PM

Yeah, I just presented part of it... Did you read the whole thing or?

I think the gist of it is this: We know who has the Holy Spirit but it's not for us to say where He isn't.

The linked article is interesting, and it presents a good explanation of the "fusion" of beliefs pertaining to the topic. I was just picking on the quoted portion in the post. Thanks for posting it.

I'll follow Asteriktos' lead regarding the second part.

Stephen St. Pierre · « **Reply #13 on:** July 20, 2011, 09:43:24 PM »

Quote from: Asteriktos on July 20, 2011, 09:00:57 PM

Quote from: Stephen St. Pierre on July 20, 2011, 08:55:56 PM
I think the gist of it is this: We know who has the Holy Spirit but it's not for us to say where He isn't.

We've discussed somethine like this before briefly, but frankly, I'm still rather hesitant about it all... and we would have to decide where/when/why/etc. 1) the Church, 2) Salvation, 3) Holy Spirit, etc. are involved... eh, I guess in the end it's in God's hands, and I have enough work to do on myself...

EDIT--On second thought, maybe that other thread is too different in content...

Nah, that's the perfect thread isn't it? I didn't read all of it but it seems to be in the same vein.

deusveritasest · « **Reply #14 on:** July 20, 2011, 10:27:06 PM »

Quote from: Asteriktos on July 20, 2011, 09:00:57 PM

Quote from: Stephen St. Pierre on July 20, 2011, 08:55:56 PM
I think the gist of it is this: We know who has the Holy Spirit but it's not for us to say where He isn't.

We've discussed somethine like this before briefly, but frankly, I'm still rather hesitant about it all... and we would have to decide where/when/why/etc. 1) the Church, 2) Salvation, 3) Holy Spirit, etc. are involved... eh, I guess in the end it's in God's hands, and I have enough work to do on myself...

EDIT--On second thought, maybe that other thread is too different in content...

Deciding where the Pentecostal indwelling of the Holy Spirit is is an entirely different matter from deciding where the Holy Spirit works. It is clear that the Pentecostal indwelling is only in the Church, but it is also clear that the Holy Spirit works outside of the Church.

joasia · « **Reply #15 on:** July 22, 2011, 12:37:36 AM »

Quote

"Does this mean that all now outside the Church will go to hell? No. Bishop Kallistos Ware suggests that “While there is no division between a `visible’ and an ‘invisible’ Church yet there may be members of the Church who are not visibly such, but whose membership is known to God alone. If anyone is saved, he must in some sense be a member of the Church; in what sense we cannot always say” (The Orthodox Church, p. 248, 1993 edition). Christ our God may be working in others in ways unknown to us and even to them, to bring them to salvation. And in due time, perhaps not till after death, they may recognize God and accept Christ and be united to His Body the Church-so that they can be saved.

This is very sad. So many people believe in this prelest. "not till after death"? It's too late then. If they never accept Christ's Church in life, they will have to face their decision. The story in the Bible of the poor man and the rich man (I forget his name), explains it. The rich man didn't get salvation even though he saw the poor man in Heaven and asked God to send him to his brother. The rich man knew the truth, after death, but he wasn't absolved of his faithlessness. He was in hell.

Metropolitan Kallistos and Fr. Bill are in deep prelest. Lord have mercy on their souls. There is so much more to say about their lies (from this post), but I will not go into it. It just angers me so much. Such lies.

Title added to the name of the referenced bishop to make sure he receives the respect due his office in the Church. -PtA

Irish Hermit · « **Reply #16 on:** July 22, 2011, 01:17:16 AM »

Quote from: joasia on July 22, 2011, 12:37:36 AM

This is very sad. So many people believe in this prelest. "not till after death"? It's too late then. If they never accept Christ's Church in life, they will have to face their decision. The story in the Bible of the poor man and the rich man (I forget his name), explains it. The rich man didn't get salvation even though he saw the poor man in Heaven and asked God to send him to his brother. The rich man knew the truth, after death, but he wasn't absolved of his faithlessness. He was in hell.

I am a member of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad.

The Russian Orthodox Church Abroad is a self-governing Church under the Patriarchate of Moscow.

Question.....

1. Am I a member Christ's Church and able to be saved?

2. Not a member of Christ's Church and damned?

joasia · « **Reply #17 on:** July 22, 2011, 07:46:02 AM »

Quote from: Irish Hermit on July 22, 2011, 01:17:16 AM

Quote from: joasia on July 22, 2011, 12:37:36 AM
This is very sad. So many people believe in this prelest. "not till after death"? It's too late then. If they never accept Christ's Church in life, they will have to face their decision. The story in the Bible of the poor man and the rich man (I forget his name), explains it. The rich man didn't get salvation even though he saw the poor man in Heaven and asked God to send him to his brother. The rich man knew the truth, after death, but he wasn't absolved of his faithlessness. He was in hell.

I am a member of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad.

The Russian Orthodox Church Abroad is a self-governing Church under the Patriarchate of Moscow.

Question.....

1. Am I a member Christ's Church and able to be saved?

2. Not a member of Christ's Church and damned?

What does that have to doe with Metropolitan Kallistos' explanation?

Title added to name of the referenced bishop to make sure he receives the respect due his sacramental office in the Church... -PtA

Irish Hermit · « **Reply #18 on:** July 22, 2011, 08:46:59 AM »

Quote from: joasia on July 22, 2011, 07:46:02 AM

Quote from: Irish Hermit on July 22, 2011, 01:17:16 AM
Quote from: joasia on July 22, 2011, 12:37:36 AM
This is very sad. So many people believe in this prelest. "not till after death"? It's too late then. If they never accept Christ's Church in life, they will have to face their decision. The story in the Bible of the poor man and the rich man (I forget his name), explains it. The rich man didn't get salvation even though he saw the poor man in Heaven and asked God to send him to his brother. The rich man knew the truth, after death, but he wasn't absolved of his faithlessness. He was in hell.

I am a member of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad.

The Russian Orthodox Church Abroad is a self-governing Church under the Patriarchate of Moscow.

Question.....

1. Am I a member Christ's Church and able to be saved?

2. Not a member of Christ's Church and damned?

What does that have to doe with Kallistos' explanation?

I may be confused about which of the TOCs you belong to? Some teach the damnation of members of the ancient Orthodox Patriarchates and some do not.

Is this your bishop in America?

Bishop HARALAMPOS of Dallas and All Texas

theo philosopher · « **Reply #19 on:** July 22, 2011, 08:58:55 AM »

As someone who is not Orthodox, I always find this discussion interesting. Mostly because every single member of the Orthodox clergy I've spoken to says that those outside of the Orthodox faith, yet still claim the name of Christ, are not considered to be without Christ. I've even been told my baptism would be considered valid were I/when I join the Orthodox faith. Everything I've read from bishops also seems to indicate that most self-proclaimed Christians (who understand and live their beliefs) are still part of the family of God in some mysterious way, though they are not a part of the Church.

Yet the laity within the Orthodox Church seemingly hold the complete opposite view, and from what I've noticed most of those who hold such a view tend to be converts to Orthodoxy. Even the couple that introduced me to Orthodoxy, a couple I love very much, told me they were concerned for my soul for not being Orthodox and they were converts. Yet their daughter-in-law, a "cradle Orthodox," said she had never been taught that. My friend who graduated from Holy Cross also told me that those beyond the boundaries of Orthodoxy are mysteriously grafted into the family, likewise that not all those within Orthodoxy will go to Heaven.

So perhaps it is best to say that the issue isn't really settled, or it is and the laity just isn't aware? Or could it be that some of the converts are bringing their evangelical and protestant beliefs to Orthodoxy (though unintentionally), which tend to be extremely exclusive?

joasia · « **Reply #20 on:** July 22, 2011, 09:23:17 AM »

Quote from: Irish Hermit on July 22, 2011, 08:46:59 AM

Quote from: joasia on July 22, 2011, 07:46:02 AM
Quote from: Irish Hermit on July 22, 2011, 01:17:16 AM
Quote from: joasia on July 22, 2011, 12:37:36 AM
This is very sad. So many people believe in this prelest. "not till after death"? It's too late then. If they never accept Christ's Church in life, they will have to face their decision. The story in the Bible of the poor man and the rich man (I forget his name), explains it. The rich man didn't get salvation even though he saw the poor man in Heaven and asked God to send him to his brother. The rich man knew the truth, after death, but he wasn't absolved of his faithlessness. He was in hell.

I am a member of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad.

The Russian Orthodox Church Abroad is a self-governing Church under the Patriarchate of Moscow.

Question.....

1. Am I a member Christ's Church and able to be saved?

2. Not a member of Christ's Church and damned?

What does that have to doe with Kallistos' explanation?

I may be confused about which of the TOCs you belong to? Some teach the damnation of members of the ancient Orthodox Patriarchates and some do not.

Is this your bishop in America?

Bishop HARALAMPOS of Dallas and All Texas

I don't think we should go into it here. If you want we can message. And no, that's not my bishop. I'm with Archbishop Tikhon of Omsk and Siberia.

Irish Hermit · « **Reply #21 on:** July 22, 2011, 09:38:01 AM »

Quote from: joasia on July 22, 2011, 07:46:02 AM

Quote from: Irish Hermit on July 22, 2011, 01:17:16 AM
Quote from: joasia on July 22, 2011, 12:37:36 AM
This is very sad. So many people believe in this prelest. "not till after death"? It's too late then. If they never accept Christ's Church in life, they will have to face their decision. The story in the Bible of the poor man and the rich man (I forget his name), explains it. The rich man didn't get salvation even though he saw the poor man in Heaven and asked God to send him to his brother. The rich man knew the truth, after death, but he wasn't absolved of his faithlessness. He was in hell.

I am a member of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad.

The Russian Orthodox Church Abroad is a self-governing Church under the Patriarchate of Moscow.

Question.....

1. Am I a member Christ's Church and able to be saved?

2. Not a member of Christ's Church and damned?

What does that have to doe with Kallistos' explanation?

Am I in a state of prelest because I believe I am in Christ's Church? And that I am a priest? What is the teaching of your bishop?

joasia · « **Reply #22 on:** July 22, 2011, 10:14:46 AM »

Quote from: Irish Hermit on July 22, 2011, 09:38:01 AM

Quote from: joasia on July 22, 2011, 07:46:02 AM
Quote from: Irish Hermit on July 22, 2011, 01:17:16 AM
Quote from: joasia on July 22, 2011, 12:37:36 AM
This is very sad. So many people believe in this prelest. "not till after death"? It's too late then. If they never accept Christ's Church in life, they will have to face their decision. The story in the Bible of the poor man and the rich man (I forget his name), explains it. The rich man didn't get salvation even though he saw the poor man in Heaven and asked God to send him to his brother. The rich man knew the truth, after death, but he wasn't absolved of his faithlessness. He was in hell.

I am a member of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad.

The Russian Orthodox Church Abroad is a self-governing Church under the Patriarchate of Moscow.

Question.....

1. Am I a member Christ's Church and able to be saved?

2. Not a member of Christ's Church and damned?

What does that have to do with Kallistos' explanation?

Am I in a state of prelest because I believe I am in Christ's Church? And that I am a priest? What is the teaching of your bishop?

What does this have to do with Metropolitan Kallistos' teaching that a person, after death, can still be saved. That's the point I was looking at.

Title added to name of the referenced bishop to make sure he receives the respect due his sacramental office in the Church... -PtA

Shanghaiski · « **Reply #23 on:** July 22, 2011, 10:26:27 AM »

Those who are not Christians are judged according to their consciences. Christ is in the business of saving people, not damning them.

Irish Hermit · « **Reply #24 on:** July 22, 2011, 10:27:55 AM »

Quote from: joasia on July 22, 2011, 10:14:46 AM

Quote from: Irish Hermit on July 22, 2011, 09:38:01 AM
Quote from: joasia on July 22, 2011, 07:46:02 AM
Quote from: Irish Hermit on July 22, 2011, 01:17:16 AM
Quote from: joasia on July 22, 2011, 12:37:36 AM
This is very sad. So many people believe in this prelest. "not till after death"? It's too late then. If they never accept Christ's Church in life, they will have to face their decision. The story in the Bible of the poor man and the rich man (I forget his name), explains it. The rich man didn't get salvation even though he saw the poor man in Heaven and asked God to send him to his brother. The rich man knew the truth, after death, but he wasn't absolved of his faithlessness. He was in hell.

I am a member of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad.

The Russian Orthodox Church Abroad is a self-governing Church under the Patriarchate of Moscow.

Question.....

1. Am I a member Christ's Church and able to be saved?

2. Not a member of Christ's Church and damned?

What does that have to do with Kallistos' explanation?

Am I in a state of prelest because I believe I am in Christ's Church? And that I am a priest? What is the teaching of your bishop?

What does this have to do with Kallistos' teaching that a person, after death, can still be saved. That's the point I was looking at.

Yes, of course a person may be saved after death, even if they have died in very serious sin. Only Roman Catholics and Protestants deny it. This is an entirely scripturally based teaching. Please read the second book of Maccabees 12: 39-46.

I would think a person would be in heresy to deny this; it is both the teaching of Scripture and of the Church.

Shanghaiski · « **Reply #25 on:** July 22, 2011, 10:29:05 AM »

Quote from: joasia on July 22, 2011, 10:14:46 AM

Quote from: Irish Hermit on July 22, 2011, 09:38:01 AM
Quote from: joasia on July 22, 2011, 07:46:02 AM
Quote from: Irish Hermit on July 22, 2011, 01:17:16 AM
Quote from: joasia on July 22, 2011, 12:37:36 AM
This is very sad. So many people believe in this prelest. "not till after death"? It's too late then. If they never accept Christ's Church in life, they will have to face their decision. The story in the Bible of the poor man and the rich man (I forget his name), explains it. The rich man didn't get salvation even though he saw the poor man in Heaven and asked God to send him to his brother. The rich man knew the truth, after death, but he wasn't absolved of his faithlessness. He was in hell.

I am a member of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad.

The Russian Orthodox Church Abroad is a self-governing Church under the Patriarchate of Moscow.

Question.....

1. Am I a member Christ's Church and able to be saved?

2. Not a member of Christ's Church and damned?

What does that have to do with Kallistos' explanation?

Am I in a state of prelest because I believe I am in Christ's Church? And that I am a priest? What is the teaching of your bishop?

What does this have to do with Kallistos' teaching that a person, after death, can still be saved. That's the point I was looking at.

To say that someone after death cannot be saved is heresy. The dogma of the Church is that, through prayers and alms given for the dead, even those who were hardened sinners can receive help. This is a mystery. Until Christ returns, the state of the dead is changeable--not that the dead can help themselves, but that they can be helped by the living beseeching Christ and doing good in their names.

deusveritasest · « **Reply #26 on:** July 22, 2011, 05:32:13 PM »

Quote from: Irish Hermit on July 22, 2011, 10:27:55 AM

Quote from: joasia on July 22, 2011, 10:14:46 AM
Quote from: Irish Hermit on July 22, 2011, 09:38:01 AM
Quote from: joasia on July 22, 2011, 07:46:02 AM
Quote from: Irish Hermit on July 22, 2011, 01:17:16 AM
Quote from: joasia on July 22, 2011, 12:37:36 AM
This is very sad. So many people believe in this prelest. "not till after death"? It's too late then. If they never accept Christ's Church in life, they will have to face their decision. The story in the Bible of the poor man and the rich man (I forget his name), explains it. The rich man didn't get salvation even though he saw the poor man in Heaven and asked God to send him to his brother. The rich man knew the truth, after death, but he wasn't absolved of his faithlessness. He was in hell.

I am a member of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad.

The Russian Orthodox Church Abroad is a self-governing Church under the Patriarchate of Moscow.

Question.....

1. Am I a member Christ's Church and able to be saved?

2. Not a member of Christ's Church and damned?

What does that have to do with Kallistos' explanation?

Am I in a state of prelest because I believe I am in Christ's Church? And that I am a priest? What is the teaching of your bishop?

What does this have to do with Kallistos' teaching that a person, after death, can still be saved. That's the point I was looking at.

Yes, of course a person may be saved after death, even if they have died in very serious sin. Only Roman Catholics and Protestants deny it. This is an entirely scripturally based teaching. Please read the second book of Maccabees 12: 39-46.

I would think a person would be in heresy to deny this; it is both the teaching of Scripture and of the Church.

*thumbs up*

stanley123 · « **Reply #27 on:** July 22, 2011, 06:22:40 PM »

Quote from: Irish Hermit on July 22, 2011, 10:27:55 AM

Quote from: joasia on July 22, 2011, 10:14:46 AM
Quote from: Irish Hermit on July 22, 2011, 09:38:01 AM
Quote from: joasia on July 22, 2011, 07:46:02 AM
Quote from: Irish Hermit on July 22, 2011, 01:17:16 AM
Quote from: joasia on July 22, 2011, 12:37:36 AM
This is very sad. So many people believe in this prelest. "not till after death"? It's too late then. If they never accept Christ's Church in life, they will have to face their decision. The story in the Bible of the poor man and the rich man (I forget his name), explains it. The rich man didn't get salvation even though he saw the poor man in Heaven and asked God to send him to his brother. The rich man knew the truth, after death, but he wasn't absolved of his faithlessness. He was in hell.

I am a member of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad.

The Russian Orthodox Church Abroad is a self-governing Church under the Patriarchate of Moscow.

Question.....

1. Am I a member Christ's Church and able to be saved?

2. Not a member of Christ's Church and damned?

What does that have to do with Kallistos' explanation?

Am I in a state of prelest because I believe I am in Christ's Church? And that I am a priest? What is the teaching of your bishop?

What does this have to do with Kallistos' teaching that a person, after death, can still be saved. That's the point I was looking at.

Yes, of course a person may be saved after death, even if they have died in very serious sin. Only Roman Catholics and Protestants deny it. This is an entirely scripturally based teaching. Please read the second book of Maccabees 12: 39-46.

I would think a person would be in heresy to deny this; it is both the teaching of Scripture and of the Church.

Can a heretic be saved, even though he believes in the filioque and in the effects of mortal sin.

Father H · « **Reply #28 on:** July 22, 2011, 06:37:06 PM »

Quote from: deusveritasest on July 20, 2011, 04:59:05 PM

Eternally damned? Really no one is yet eternally damned and we have no idea who will be in the end, if anyone.

True no one yet is eternally damned, but we know that some will be:
John 5: Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of damnation. 30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.

Father H · « **Reply #29 on:** July 22, 2011, 06:38:40 PM »

Quote from: stanley123 on July 22, 2011, 06:22:40 PM

Quote from: Irish Hermit on July 22, 2011, 10:27:55 AM
Quote from: joasia on July 22, 2011, 10:14:46 AM
Quote from: Irish Hermit on July 22, 2011, 09:38:01 AM
Quote from: joasia on July 22, 2011, 07:46:02 AM
Quote from: Irish Hermit on July 22, 2011, 01:17:16 AM
Quote from: joasia on July 22, 2011, 12:37:36 AM
This is very sad. So many people believe in this prelest. "not till after death"? It's too late then. If they never accept Christ's Church in life, they will have to face their decision. The story in the Bible of the poor man and the rich man (I forget his name), explains it. The rich man didn't get salvation even though he saw the poor man in Heaven and asked God to send him to his brother. The rich man knew the truth, after death, but he wasn't absolved of his faithlessness. He was in hell.

I am a member of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad.

The Russian Orthodox Church Abroad is a self-governing Church under the Patriarchate of Moscow.

Question.....

1. Am I a member Christ's Church and able to be saved?

2. Not a member of Christ's Church and damned?

What does that have to do with Kallistos' explanation?

Am I in a state of prelest because I believe I am in Christ's Church? And that I am a priest? What is the teaching of your bishop?

What does this have to do with Kallistos' teaching that a person, after death, can still be saved. That's the point I was looking at.

Yes, of course a person may be saved after death, even if they have died in very serious sin. Only Roman Catholics and Protestants deny it. This is an entirely scripturally based teaching. Please read the second book of Maccabees 12: 39-46.

I would think a person would be in heresy to deny this; it is both the teaching of Scripture and of the Church.

Can a heretic be saved, even though he believes in the filioque and in the effects of mortal sin.

What specifically are you talking about with "the effects of mortal sin"?

Father H · « **Reply #30 on:** July 22, 2011, 06:46:06 PM »

Quote from: Irish Hermit on July 22, 2011, 10:27:55 AM

Quote from: joasia on July 22, 2011, 10:14:46 AM
Quote from: Irish Hermit on July 22, 2011, 09:38:01 AM
Quote from: joasia on July 22, 2011, 07:46:02 AM
Quote from: Irish Hermit on July 22, 2011, 01:17:16 AM
Quote from: joasia on July 22, 2011, 12:37:36 AM
This is very sad. So many people believe in this prelest. "not till after death"? It's too late then. If they never accept Christ's Church in life, they will have to face their decision. The story in the Bible of the poor man and the rich man (I forget his name), explains it. The rich man didn't get salvation even though he saw the poor man in Heaven and asked God to send him to his brother. The rich man knew the truth, after death, but he wasn't absolved of his faithlessness. He was in hell.

I am a member of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad.

The Russian Orthodox Church Abroad is a self-governing Church under the Patriarchate of Moscow.

Question.....

1. Am I a member Christ's Church and able to be saved?

2. Not a member of Christ's Church and damned?

What does that have to do with Kallistos' explanation?

Am I in a state of prelest because I believe I am in Christ's Church? And that I am a priest? What is the teaching of your bishop?

What does this have to do with Kallistos' teaching that a person, after death, can still be saved. That's the point I was looking at.

Yes, of course a person may be saved after death, even if they have died in very serious sin. Only Roman Catholics and Protestants deny it. This is an entirely scripturally based teaching. Please read the second book of Maccabees 12: 39-46.

I would think a person would be in heresy to deny this; it is both the teaching of Scripture and of the Church.

Correct

Volnutt · « **Reply #31 on:** July 22, 2011, 07:49:41 PM »

I can understand postmortem evangelism, but Met. Kallistos' view that someone can be part of the visible Church in this life without their knowledge seems like a stretch to me.

Quote from: FatherHLL on July 22, 2011, 06:37:06 PM

Quote from: deusveritasest on July 20, 2011, 04:59:05 PM
Eternally damned? Really no one is yet eternally damned and we have no idea who will be in the end, if anyone.

True no one yet is eternally damned, but we know that some will be:
John 5: Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of damnation. 30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.

So in what sense is there a "hope of universalism" in Orthodoxy?

Quote from: joasia on July 22, 2011, 12:37:36 AM

This is very sad. So many people believe in this prelest. "not till after death"? It's too late then. If they never accept Christ's Church in life, they will have to face their decision. The story in the Bible of the poor man and the rich man (I forget his name), explains it. The rich man didn't get salvation even though he saw the poor man in Heaven and asked God to send him to his brother. The rich man knew the truth, after death, but he wasn't absolved of his faithlessness. He was in hell.

I don't think that parable can be used for this. It never says the rich man was actually repentant. Perhaps he just wanted to escape suffering but had no more love for God or man than he did in life. Notice he never says "Forgive me, God" or "Forgive me, Lazarus." The fact that he cared about his brother is not absolutely indicative of a state of repentance. Also, as far as I've been told the Fathers interpret the gulf between them as being a pre-Resurrection feature.

deusveritasest · « **Reply #32 on:** July 22, 2011, 08:13:21 PM »

Quote from: FatherHLL on July 22, 2011, 06:37:06 PM

Quote from: deusveritasest on July 20, 2011, 04:59:05 PM
Eternally damned? Really no one is yet eternally damned and we have no idea who will be in the end, if anyone.

True no one yet is eternally damned, but we know that some will be:
John 5: Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of damnation. 30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.

My main point that we have no idea, in any case, who will be ultimately damned stands regardless.

Father H · « **Reply #33 on:** July 22, 2011, 08:44:49 PM »

Quote from: Volnutt on July 22, 2011, 07:49:41 PM

I can understand postmortem evangelism, but Met. Kallistos' view that someone can be part of the visible Church in this life without their knowledge seems like a stretch to me.

Quote from: FatherHLL on July 22, 2011, 06:37:06 PM
Quote from: deusveritasest on July 20, 2011, 04:59:05 PM
Eternally damned? Really no one is yet eternally damned and we have no idea who will be in the end, if anyone.

True no one yet is eternally damned, but we know that some will be:
John 5: Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of damnation. 30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.
So in what sense is there a "hope of universalism" in Orthodoxy?
Quote from: joasia on July 22, 2011, 12:37:36 AM
This is very sad. So many people believe in this prelest. "not till after death"? It's too late then. If they never accept Christ's Church in life, they will have to face their decision. The story in the Bible of the poor man and the rich man (I forget his name), explains it. The rich man didn't get salvation even though he saw the poor man in Heaven and asked God to send him to his brother. The rich man knew the truth, after death, but he wasn't absolved of his faithlessness. He was in hell.
I don't think that parable can be used for this. It never says the rich man was actually repentant. Perhaps he just wanted to escape suffering but had no more love for God or man than he did in life. Notice he never says "Forgive me, God" or "Forgive me, Lazarus." The fact that he cared about his brother is not absolutely indicative of a state of repentance. Also, as far as I've been told the Fathers interpret the gulf between them as being a pre-Resurrection feature.

There is no "hope of universalism." Universalism is a heresy.

Volnutt · « **Reply #34 on:** July 22, 2011, 09:14:21 PM »

Fabio Leite · « **Reply #35 on:** July 22, 2011, 09:25:06 PM »

Quote from: deusveritasest on July 20, 2011, 10:27:06 PM

Quote from: Asteriktos on July 20, 2011, 09:00:57 PM
Quote from: Stephen St. Pierre on July 20, 2011, 08:55:56 PM
I think the gist of it is this: We know who has the Holy Spirit but it's not for us to say where He isn't.

We've discussed somethine like this before briefly, but frankly, I'm still rather hesitant about it all... and we would have to decide where/when/why/etc. 1) the Church, 2) Salvation, 3) Holy Spirit, etc. are involved... eh, I guess in the end it's in God's hands, and I have enough work to do on myself...

EDIT--On second thought, maybe that other thread is too different in content...

Deciding where the Pentecostal indwelling of the Holy Spirit is is an entirely different matter from deciding where the Holy Spirit works. It is clear that the Pentecostal indwelling is only in the Church, but it is also clear that the Holy Spirit works outside of the Church.

Right on!

TristanCross · « **Reply #36 on:** July 22, 2011, 10:06:23 PM »

I am seriously doubting Orthodoxy due such comments:

Quote

Yes, of course a person may be saved after death, even if they have died in very serious sin. Only Roman Catholics and Protestants deny it. This is an entirely scripturally based teaching. Please read the second book of Maccabees 12: 39-46.

I would think a person would be in heresy to deny this; it is both the teaching of Scripture and of the Church.

Quote

To say that someone after death cannot be saved is heresy. The dogma of the Church is that, through prayers and alms given for the dead, even those who were hardened sinners can receive help. This is a mystery. Until Christ returns, the state of the dead is changeable--not that the dead can help themselves, but that they can be helped by the living beseeching Christ and doing good in their names.

Quote

Those who are not Christians are judged according to their consciences. Christ is in the business of saving people, not damning them.

Irish Hermit · « **Reply #37 on:** July 22, 2011, 10:17:42 PM »

Quote from: FatherHLL on July 22, 2011, 08:44:49 PM

Quote from: Volnutt on July 22, 2011, 07:49:41 PM
I can understand postmortem evangelism, but Met. Kallistos' view that someone can be part of the visible Church in this life without their knowledge seems like a stretch to me.

Quote from: FatherHLL on July 22, 2011, 06:37:06 PM
Quote from: deusveritasest on July 20, 2011, 04:59:05 PM
Eternally damned? Really no one is yet eternally damned and we have no idea who will be in the end, if anyone.

True no one yet is eternally damned, but we know that some will be:
John 5: Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of damnation. 30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.
So in what sense is there a "hope of universalism" in Orthodoxy?
Quote from: joasia on July 22, 2011, 12:37:36 AM
This is very sad. So many people believe in this prelest. "not till after death"? It's too late then. If they never accept Christ's Church in life, they will have to face their decision. The story in the Bible of the poor man and the rich man (I forget his name), explains it. The rich man didn't get salvation even though he saw the poor man in Heaven and asked God to send him to his brother. The rich man knew the truth, after death, but he wasn't absolved of his faithlessness. He was in hell.
I don't think that parable can be used for this. It never says the rich man was actually repentant. Perhaps he just wanted to escape suffering but had no more love for God or man than he did in life. Notice he never says "Forgive me, God" or "Forgive me, Lazarus." The fact that he cared about his brother is not absolutely indicative of a state of repentance. Also, as far as I've been told the Fathers interpret the gulf between them as being a pre-Resurrection feature.

There is no "hope of universalism." Universalism is a heresy.

There is a hope, Father, one more in less of the nature which Catholics have when their Catechism speaks of the hope of salvation for the unbaptized children.

"One should pray that Apokatastasis is true, but one would be foolish to teach it as doctrine."
~St Maximus the Confessor

Irish Hermit · « **Reply #38 on:** July 22, 2011, 10:26:36 PM »

]

Quote from: TristanCross on July 22, 2011, 10:06:23 PM

I am seriously doubting Orthodoxy due such comments:

One glorious thing about our God is that He cannot be put into the boxes and constructs in which then human mind and human reason would like to imprison Him. He is able to do glorious things which we cannot fathom.

I would say that you ought to read and pray on the teaching found in 2 Maccabees 12: 39-46 and you will either have to agree with the posibility of salvation from serious sin after death or, if you don't, you will have to start doubting Scripture.

Quote

Yes, of course a person may be saved after death, even if they have died in very serious sin. Only Roman Catholics and Protestants deny it. This is an entirely scripturally based teaching. Please read the second book of Maccabees 12: 39-46.

I would think a person would be in heresy to deny this; it is both the teaching of Scripture and of the Church.

Quote

To say that someone after death cannot be saved is heresy. The dogma of the Church is that, through prayers and alms given for the dead, even those who were hardened sinners can receive help. This is a mystery. Until Christ returns, the state of the dead is changeable--not that the dead can help themselves, but that they can be helped by the living beseeching Christ and doing good in their names.

Quote

Those who are not Christians are judged according to their consciences. Christ is in the business of saving people, not damning them.

[/quote]

Irish Hermit · « **Reply #39 on:** July 22, 2011, 10:32:15 PM »

Quote from: TristanCross on July 22, 2011, 10:06:23 PM

I am seriously doubting Orthodoxy due such comments:

Dear Tristan,

Here is something on salvation from sin after death, in accord with the teaching of holy Scripture.

Please see message 175
at
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,37255.msg592638.html#msg592638

Father H · « **Reply #40 on:** July 22, 2011, 10:39:22 PM »

Quote from: Irish Hermit on July 22, 2011, 10:17:42 PM

Quote from: FatherHLL on July 22, 2011, 08:44:49 PM
Quote from: Volnutt on July 22, 2011, 07:49:41 PM
I can understand postmortem evangelism, but Met. Kallistos' view that someone can be part of the visible Church in this life without their knowledge seems like a stretch to me.

Quote from: FatherHLL on July 22, 2011, 06:37:06 PM
Quote from: deusveritasest on July 20, 2011, 04:59:05 PM
Eternally damned? Really no one is yet eternally damned and we have no idea who will be in the end, if anyone.

True no one yet is eternally damned, but we know that some will be:
John 5: Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of damnation. 30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.
So in what sense is there a "hope of universalism" in Orthodoxy?
Quote from: joasia on July 22, 2011, 12:37:36 AM
This is very sad. So many people believe in this prelest. "not till after death"? It's too late then. If they never accept Christ's Church in life, they will have to face their decision. The story in the Bible of the poor man and the rich man (I forget his name), explains it. The rich man didn't get salvation even though he saw the poor man in Heaven and asked God to send him to his brother. The rich man knew the truth, after death, but he wasn't absolved of his faithlessness. He was in hell.
I don't think that parable can be used for this. It never says the rich man was actually repentant. Perhaps he just wanted to escape suffering but had no more love for God or man than he did in life. Notice he never says "Forgive me, God" or "Forgive me, Lazarus." The fact that he cared about his brother is not absolutely indicative of a state of repentance. Also, as far as I've been told the Fathers interpret the gulf between them as being a pre-Resurrection feature.

There is no "hope of universalism." Universalism is a heresy.

There is a hope, Father, one more in less of the nature which Catholics have when their Catechism speaks of the hope of salvation for the unbaptized children.

"One should pray that Apokatastasis is true, but one would be foolish to teach it as doctrine."
~St Maximus the Confessor

That may be a statement you heard is seminary, but it is not something that St. Maximus the Confessor said, but a pseudo-quote.

Father H · « **Reply #41 on:** July 22, 2011, 10:42:04 PM »

Quote from: TristanCross on July 22, 2011, 10:06:23 PM

I am seriously doubting Orthodoxy due such comments:

Quote
Yes, of course a person may be saved after death, even if they have died in very serious sin. Only Roman Catholics and Protestants deny it. This is an entirely scripturally based teaching. Please read the second book of Maccabees 12: 39-46.

I would think a person would be in heresy to deny this; it is both the teaching of Scripture and of the Church.

Quote
To say that someone after death cannot be saved is heresy. The dogma of the Church is that, through prayers and alms given for the dead, even those who were hardened sinners can receive help. This is a mystery. Until Christ returns, the state of the dead is changeable--not that the dead can help themselves, but that they can be helped by the living beseeching Christ and doing good in their names.

Quote
Those who are not Christians are judged according to their consciences. Christ is in the business of saving people, not damning them.

Well, you reject the latter because it is untrue. Christ himself let us know he is in the business of saving and damning. If you doubt Orthodoxy because of posts on the internet, it may be good for you to take a step back in your catecumenate as you may have a bit of growing to do first.

Irish Hermit · « **Reply #42 on:** July 22, 2011, 11:35:39 PM »

Quote from: FatherHLL on July 22, 2011, 10:39:22 PM

Quote from: Irish Hermit on July 22, 2011, 10:17:42 PM
There is a hope, Father, one more in less of the nature which Catholics have when their Catechism speaks of the hope of salvation for the unbaptized children.

"One should pray that Apokatastasis is true, but one would be foolish to teach it as doctrine."
~St Maximus the Confessor

That may be a statement you heard is seminary, but it is not something that St. Maximus the Confessor said, but a pseudo-quote.

Apocryphal or not the quote is nonetheless true since we dare not presume to say that any man is in Hell (apart from Arius since our sacred liturgical texts place him there.) We dare not say that Nero, Hitler, Stalin or Polpot are in Hell and we dare not refuse to pray for their salvation. This is the hope of Apokatastasis which is intrinsic to Christianity.

Irish Hermit · « **Reply #43 on:** July 23, 2011, 12:05:12 AM »

"Bishop Kallistos Ware, arguably the most important Orthodox scholar of this century has written an essay called, “Dare We Hope for the Salvation of All”, in a collection called “The Inner Kingdom”, where he references George MacDonald, C.S. Lewis and other church fathers. It is a great essay (that’s putting it mildly!) and the only one I have found so far which can clearly state the Orthodox position on this doctrine which everyone wonders about (if they say they don’t wonder about it then they are probably not telling the truth). I first read it in a collection of his while visiting my favorite monastery, but have recently discovered the work is available online and want to encourage my friends to read it. It can be assessed through google by typing in keywords such as The Inner Kingdom or Kallistos Ware George MacDonald. It is too large to reprint here.

"The article “Dare We Hope for the Salvation of All” by Kallistos Ware is useful for evaluating the constrasting strands in our tradition."

http://patricio2ahora.wordpress.com/2007/11/19/149/

I think I have to spend some cash and acquire this. I detest reading long things on the Internet.

stanley123 · « **Reply #44 on:** July 23, 2011, 12:15:59 AM »

Quote from: Irish Hermit on July 22, 2011, 11:35:39 PM

Quote from: FatherHLL on July 22, 2011, 10:39:22 PM
Quote from: Irish Hermit on July 22, 2011, 10:17:42 PM
There is a hope, Father, one more in less of the nature which Catholics have when their Catechism speaks of the hope of salvation for the unbaptized children.

"One should pray that Apokatastasis is true, but one would be foolish to teach it as doctrine."
~St Maximus the Confessor

That may be a statement you heard is seminary, but it is not something that St. Maximus the Confessor said, but a pseudo-quote.

Apocryphal or not the quote is nonetheless true since we dare not presume to say that any man is in Hell (apart from Arius since our sacred liturgical texts place him there.) We dare not say that Nero, Hitler, Stalin or Polpot are in Hell and we dare not refuse to pray for their salvation. This is the hope of Apokatastasis which is intrinsic to Christianity.

How are we to understand Matthew 25:41?
Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

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