OrthodoxChristianity.net
July 31, 2014, 07:49:28 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Does God damn non-Orthodox Christians?  (Read 5452 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Milica
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodoxy
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox
Posts: 17



« on: July 17, 2011, 01:32:59 PM »

What if there was a tribe somewhere that had never heard of Christianity? Do they still go to hell?
Logged

Glory to Thee, O our God, glory to Thee!

O God, be merciful to me, a sinner.

O Lord, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, by the prayers of Thy most pure Mother, and all the saints, have mercy upon us.
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 29,371



« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2011, 01:44:53 PM »

I think this passage in Romans 2 hints at an answer...

"For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel." - Rom. 2:12-16

It seems that we're not judged by how much we know, but rather by what we do with the information that we do have. So, the tribe you mentioned would be judged based on how they responded to "the law written in their hearts". That's what I take from Paul, anyway, though I think there are a couple problems with this, but I think the above is a start anyway...
« Last Edit: July 17, 2011, 01:45:02 PM by Asteriktos » Logged

orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,350



« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2011, 02:08:34 PM »

Yes and Orthodox ones as well.

Oh yeah, and what Asteriktos said.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
sainthieu
Abstractor of the Quintessence
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 621


« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2011, 03:49:11 PM »

Do they still go to hell?

No. Asterikos is correct.
Logged
sprtslvr1973
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA; Jurisdiaction of Dallas and the South
Posts: 678


"Behold I stand at the Door and Knock" Rev. 3:20


« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2011, 04:47:46 PM »

What about those who have heard the Gospel and still choose to reject Christ? Will Satan, Judas, and the Unrepentant Thief be saved? One of the inconsistencies I see with Orthodox Christian circles is a simultaneous belief in Free Will and Universalism. I can not logically reconcile these two. If anything Universalism seems to work in better concert with Predestination; where even those who don't want to be saved are saved.
Logged

"Into thy hands I commend my spirit"- Luke 23:46
“Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!” - Mark 9:24
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2011, 04:59:05 PM »

Eternally damned? Really no one is yet eternally damned and we have no idea who will be in the end, if anyone.
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,964


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2011, 05:09:13 PM »

What if there was a tribe somewhere that had never heard of Christianity? Do they still go to hell?

Only if they choose to.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,964


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2011, 05:13:20 PM »

What about those who have heard the Gospel and still choose to reject Christ? Will Satan, Judas, and the Unrepentant Thief be saved? One of the inconsistencies I see with Orthodox Christian circles is a simultaneous belief in Free Will and Universalism. I can not logically reconcile these two. If anything Universalism seems to work in better concert with Predestination; where even those who don't want to be saved are saved.

Universalism is a heresy, as is predestination as understood by most non-Orthodox.

This life we have to make our choice. Christ came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. All who want to be saved, He will save. But a choice must be made, and after that God assists with His grace.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Stephen St. Pierre
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Inquirer to Eastern Orthodoxy
Posts: 94


This user has been banned.


« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2011, 06:35:51 PM »

Fr. Bill Olnhausen writes:

"Does this mean that all now outside the Church will go to hell? No. Bishop Kallistos Ware suggests that “While there is no division between a `visible’ and an ‘invisible’ Church yet there may be members of the Church who are not visibly such, but whose membership is known to God alone. If anyone is saved, he must in some sense be a member of the Church; in what sense we cannot always say” (The Orthodox Church, p. 248, 1993 edition). Christ our God may be working in others in ways unknown to us and even to them, to bring them to salvation. And in due time, perhaps not till after death, they may recognize God and accept Christ and be united to His Body the Church-so that they can be saved.

This is in accord with the teaching of Christ. In the parable of the sheep and the goats (Matthew 25), notice that it is the “nations” (v. 32), the nonbelievers, who are being judged (this is obvious, because they are surprised to learn that Christ dwells in the needy), and some of them are welcomed into the “kingdom prepared for [them] from the foundation of the world” (v. 34).

Regarding God’s mysterious work outside the Orthodox Church, we have nothing to say. We make no judgments about what God is doing there, or about what happens to the souls of those who are not Orthodox or not Christian on earth. It is all we can do to try to “work out [our] own salvation with fear and trembling” (Philippians 2:12)."

(Originally found in Again magazine)

Taken from http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Christianity/Orthodox/2005/03/Do-All-Non-Orthodox-People-Go-To-Hell.aspx

According to GOARCH of America:

"An Orthodox scholar recently observed that there are basically three views that Christians have taken with regard to non-Christian religions. The first is that the non-Christian will be damned because there is no salvation outside the visible Body of Christ, the Church, The second is that the non-Christian may be saved in spite the religion he practices, but only through the mercy of God. The third is that the non-Christian may be saved by means of the very religion he practices, for nonChristian religions may also contain saving truths. These three views parallel the three approaches identified elsewhere as exclusivism. inclusivism and cultural pluralism.

The claim of exclusivism has been rejected by many Orthodox scholars as untenable. This is not done in the interests of facilitating missionary endeavors or to foster world peace. Exclusiveness is rejected as a matter of Truth. The majority of Orthodox scholars would accept inclusivism. Some Orthodox scholars espouse the view characterized as cultural pluralism but with qualifications. Relativism and syncretism are denied. And the view that Christianity is simply one of the world religions offering the blessing of salvation is not accepted. The focus, rather, is on the Spirit of God, the Paraclete, who leads us "Into all the truth," where in Christ all become one."

Read more @ http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/967951/posts
« Last Edit: July 20, 2011, 06:36:35 PM by Stephen St. Pierre » Logged
Cognomen
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Phyletism Rules, OK
Posts: 1,968


Ungrateful Biped


« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2011, 08:38:57 PM »

"An Orthodox scholar recently observed that there are basically three views that Christians have taken with regard to non-Christian religions. The first is that the non-Christian will be damned because there is no salvation outside the visible Body of Christ, the Church, The second is that the non-Christian may be saved in spite the religion he practices, but only through the mercy of God. The third is that the non-Christian may be saved by means of the very religion he practices, for nonChristian religions may also contain saving truths. These three views parallel the three approaches identified elsewhere as exclusivism. inclusivism and cultural pluralism.

The claim of exclusivism has been rejected by many Orthodox scholars as untenable. This is not done in the interests of facilitating missionary endeavors or to foster world peace. Exclusiveness is rejected as a matter of Truth. The majority of Orthodox scholars would accept inclusivism. Some Orthodox scholars espouse the view characterized as cultural pluralism but with qualifications. Relativism and syncretism are denied. And the view that Christianity is simply one of the world religions offering the blessing of salvation is not accepted. The focus, rather, is on the Spirit of God, the Paraclete, who leads us "Into all the truth," where in Christ all become one."

Glad to see that these Orthodox "scholars" view the teachings of many Holy Fathers and saints as "untenable."  To be fair, the quote I'm picking on alluded to views of Christians, rather than those of Orthodox Christians. 

So according to this final view, we would still be The Church, the Church with the correct beliefs, but it really doesn't matter because all religions are really the same anyway.

I'm not having a go at you, Stephen, just the information presented.  I think it's a bit out there and believe the Romans explanation is a better representation of Orthodox views on the matter.
Logged

North American Eastern Orthodox Parish Council Delegate for the Canonization of Saints Twin Towers and Pentagon, as well as the Propagation of the Doctrine of the Assumption of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 (NAEOPCDCSTTPPDAMAFM®).
Stephen St. Pierre
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Inquirer to Eastern Orthodoxy
Posts: 94


This user has been banned.


« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2011, 08:55:56 PM »

Yeah, I just presented part of it... Did you read the whole thing or?

I think the gist of it is this: We know who has the Holy Spirit but it's not for us to say where He isn't.
Logged
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 29,371



« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2011, 09:00:57 PM »

I think the gist of it is this: We know who has the Holy Spirit but it's not for us to say where He isn't.

We've discussed somethine like this before briefly, but frankly, I'm still rather hesitant about it all...  and we would have to decide where/when/why/etc. 1) the Church, 2) Salvation, 3) Holy Spirit, etc. are involved...  eh, I guess in the end it's in God's hands, and I have enough work to do on myself...

EDIT--On second thought, maybe that other thread is too different in content...
« Last Edit: July 20, 2011, 09:03:57 PM by Asteriktos » Logged

Cognomen
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Phyletism Rules, OK
Posts: 1,968


Ungrateful Biped


« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2011, 09:16:57 PM »

Yeah, I just presented part of it... Did you read the whole thing or?

I think the gist of it is this: We know who has the Holy Spirit but it's not for us to say where He isn't.

The linked article is interesting, and it presents a good explanation of the "fusion" of beliefs pertaining to the topic.  I was just picking on the quoted portion in the post.  Thanks for posting it.

I'll follow Asteriktos' lead regarding the second part.
Logged

North American Eastern Orthodox Parish Council Delegate for the Canonization of Saints Twin Towers and Pentagon, as well as the Propagation of the Doctrine of the Assumption of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 (NAEOPCDCSTTPPDAMAFM®).
Stephen St. Pierre
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Inquirer to Eastern Orthodoxy
Posts: 94


This user has been banned.


« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2011, 09:43:24 PM »

I think the gist of it is this: We know who has the Holy Spirit but it's not for us to say where He isn't.

We've discussed somethine like this before briefly, but frankly, I'm still rather hesitant about it all...  and we would have to decide where/when/why/etc. 1) the Church, 2) Salvation, 3) Holy Spirit, etc. are involved...  eh, I guess in the end it's in God's hands, and I have enough work to do on myself...

EDIT--On second thought, maybe that other thread is too different in content...

Nah, that's the perfect thread isn't it? I didn't read all of it but it seems to be in the same vein.
Logged
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2011, 10:27:06 PM »

I think the gist of it is this: We know who has the Holy Spirit but it's not for us to say where He isn't.

We've discussed somethine like this before briefly, but frankly, I'm still rather hesitant about it all...  and we would have to decide where/when/why/etc. 1) the Church, 2) Salvation, 3) Holy Spirit, etc. are involved...  eh, I guess in the end it's in God's hands, and I have enough work to do on myself...

EDIT--On second thought, maybe that other thread is too different in content...

Deciding where the Pentecostal indwelling of the Holy Spirit is is an entirely different matter from deciding where the Holy Spirit works. It is clear that the Pentecostal indwelling is only in the Church, but it is also clear that the Holy Spirit works outside of the Church.
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
joasia
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: RTOC
Posts: 224



« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2011, 12:37:36 AM »

Quote
"Does this mean that all now outside the Church will go to hell? No. Bishop Kallistos Ware suggests that “While there is no division between a `visible’ and an ‘invisible’ Church yet there may be members of the Church who are not visibly such, but whose membership is known to God alone. If anyone is saved, he must in some sense be a member of the Church; in what sense we cannot always say” (The Orthodox Church, p. 248, 1993 edition). Christ our God may be working in others in ways unknown to us and even to them, to bring them to salvation. And in due time, perhaps not till after death, they may recognize God and accept Christ and be united to His Body the Church-so that they can be saved.

This is very sad.  So many people believe in this prelest.  "not till after death"?  It's too late then.  If they never accept Christ's Church in life, they will have to face their decision.   The story in the Bible of the poor man and the rich man (I forget his name), explains it.  The rich man didn't get salvation even though he saw the poor man in Heaven and asked God to send him to his brother.  The rich man knew the truth, after death, but he wasn't absolved of his faithlessness.  He was in hell.

Metropolitan Kallistos and Fr. Bill are in deep prelest.  Lord have mercy on their souls.  There is so much more to say about their lies (from this post), but I will not go into it.  It just angers me so much.  Such lies.  



Title added to the name of the referenced bishop to make sure he receives the respect due his office in the Church.  -PtA
« Last Edit: July 22, 2011, 12:18:06 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged

Stillness,  prayer, love and self-control are a four-horsed chariot bearing the intellect to Heaven. (Philokalia 2: p.308 - #24) - St. Thalassios

The proper activity of the intellect is to be attentive at every moment to the words of God.   (Philokalia 2: p. 308 - # 30) - St. Thalassios
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2011, 01:17:16 AM »

This is very sad.  So many people believe in this prelest.  "not till after death"?  It's too late then.  If they never accept Christ's Church in life, they will have to face their decision.   The story in the Bible of the poor man and the rich man (I forget his name), explains it.  The rich man didn't get salvation even though he saw the poor man in Heaven and asked God to send him to his brother.  The rich man knew the truth, after death, but he wasn't absolved of his faithlessness.  He was in hell.

I am a member of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad.

The Russian Orthodox Church Abroad is a self-governing Church under the Patriarchate of Moscow.

Question.....

1.  Am I a member Christ's Church and able to be saved?

2.  Not a member of Christ's Church and damned?
Logged
joasia
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: RTOC
Posts: 224



« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2011, 07:46:02 AM »

This is very sad.  So many people believe in this prelest.  "not till after death"?  It's too late then.  If they never accept Christ's Church in life, they will have to face their decision.   The story in the Bible of the poor man and the rich man (I forget his name), explains it.  The rich man didn't get salvation even though he saw the poor man in Heaven and asked God to send him to his brother.  The rich man knew the truth, after death, but he wasn't absolved of his faithlessness.  He was in hell.

I am a member of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad.

The Russian Orthodox Church Abroad is a self-governing Church under the Patriarchate of Moscow.

Question.....

1.  Am I a member Christ's Church and able to be saved?

2.  Not a member of Christ's Church and damned?

What does that have to doe with Metropolitan Kallistos' explanation?



Title added to name of the referenced bishop to make sure he receives the respect due his sacramental office in the Church... -PtA
« Last Edit: July 22, 2011, 12:19:24 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged

Stillness,  prayer, love and self-control are a four-horsed chariot bearing the intellect to Heaven. (Philokalia 2: p.308 - #24) - St. Thalassios

The proper activity of the intellect is to be attentive at every moment to the words of God.   (Philokalia 2: p. 308 - # 30) - St. Thalassios
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2011, 08:46:59 AM »

This is very sad.  So many people believe in this prelest.  "not till after death"?  It's too late then.  If they never accept Christ's Church in life, they will have to face their decision.   The story in the Bible of the poor man and the rich man (I forget his name), explains it.  The rich man didn't get salvation even though he saw the poor man in Heaven and asked God to send him to his brother.  The rich man knew the truth, after death, but he wasn't absolved of his faithlessness.  He was in hell.

I am a member of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad.

The Russian Orthodox Church Abroad is a self-governing Church under the Patriarchate of Moscow.

Question.....

1.  Am I a member Christ's Church and able to be saved?

2.  Not a member of Christ's Church and damned?

What does that have to doe with Kallistos' explanation? 

I may be confused about which of the TOCs you belong to?  Some teach the damnation of members of the ancient Orthodox Patriarchates and some do not.

Is this your bishop in America?

Bishop HARALAMPOS of Dallas and All Texas

Logged
theo philosopher
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Self-Ruled Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 315



« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2011, 08:58:55 AM »

As someone who is not Orthodox, I always find this discussion interesting. Mostly because every single member of the Orthodox clergy I've spoken to says that those outside of the Orthodox faith, yet still claim the name of Christ, are not considered to be without Christ. I've even been told my baptism would be considered valid were I/when I join the Orthodox faith. Everything I've read from bishops also seems to indicate that most self-proclaimed Christians (who understand and live their beliefs) are still part of the family of God in some mysterious way, though they are not a part of the Church.

Yet the laity within the Orthodox Church seemingly hold the complete opposite view, and from what I've noticed most of those who hold such a view tend to be converts to Orthodoxy. Even the couple that introduced me to Orthodoxy, a couple I love very much, told me they were concerned for my soul for not being Orthodox and they were converts. Yet their daughter-in-law, a "cradle Orthodox," said she had never been taught that. My friend who graduated from Holy Cross also told me that those beyond the boundaries of Orthodoxy are mysteriously grafted into the family, likewise that not all those within Orthodoxy will go to Heaven.

So perhaps it is best to say that the issue isn't really settled, or it is and the laity just isn't aware? Or could it be that some of the converts are bringing their evangelical and protestant beliefs to Orthodoxy (though unintentionally), which tend to be extremely exclusive?
Logged

“Wherefore, then, death approaches, gulps down the bait of the body, and is pierced by the hook of the divinity. Then, having tasted of the sinless and life-giving body, it is destroyed and gives up all those whom it had swallowed down of old." - St. John of Damascus
joasia
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: RTOC
Posts: 224



« Reply #20 on: July 22, 2011, 09:23:17 AM »

This is very sad.  So many people believe in this prelest.  "not till after death"?  It's too late then.  If they never accept Christ's Church in life, they will have to face their decision.   The story in the Bible of the poor man and the rich man (I forget his name), explains it.  The rich man didn't get salvation even though he saw the poor man in Heaven and asked God to send him to his brother.  The rich man knew the truth, after death, but he wasn't absolved of his faithlessness.  He was in hell.

I am a member of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad.

The Russian Orthodox Church Abroad is a self-governing Church under the Patriarchate of Moscow.

Question.....

1.  Am I a member Christ's Church and able to be saved?

2.  Not a member of Christ's Church and damned?

What does that have to doe with Kallistos' explanation? 

I may be confused about which of the TOCs you belong to?  Some teach the damnation of members of the ancient Orthodox Patriarchates and some do not.

Is this your bishop in America?

Bishop HARALAMPOS of Dallas and All Texas



I don't think we should go into it here.  If you want we can message.  And no, that's not my bishop.  I'm with Archbishop Tikhon of Omsk and Siberia. 
Logged

Stillness,  prayer, love and self-control are a four-horsed chariot bearing the intellect to Heaven. (Philokalia 2: p.308 - #24) - St. Thalassios

The proper activity of the intellect is to be attentive at every moment to the words of God.   (Philokalia 2: p. 308 - # 30) - St. Thalassios
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #21 on: July 22, 2011, 09:38:01 AM »

This is very sad.  So many people believe in this prelest.  "not till after death"?  It's too late then.  If they never accept Christ's Church in life, they will have to face their decision.   The story in the Bible of the poor man and the rich man (I forget his name), explains it.  The rich man didn't get salvation even though he saw the poor man in Heaven and asked God to send him to his brother.  The rich man knew the truth, after death, but he wasn't absolved of his faithlessness.  He was in hell.

I am a member of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad.

The Russian Orthodox Church Abroad is a self-governing Church under the Patriarchate of Moscow.

Question.....

1.  Am I a member Christ's Church and able to be saved?

2.  Not a member of Christ's Church and damned?

What does that have to doe with Kallistos' explanation?  

Am I in a state of prelest because I believe I am in Christ's Church?  And that I am a priest?  What is the teaching of your bishop?
« Last Edit: July 22, 2011, 09:42:30 AM by Irish Hermit » Logged
joasia
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: RTOC
Posts: 224



« Reply #22 on: July 22, 2011, 10:14:46 AM »

This is very sad.  So many people believe in this prelest.  "not till after death"?  It's too late then.  If they never accept Christ's Church in life, they will have to face their decision.   The story in the Bible of the poor man and the rich man (I forget his name), explains it.  The rich man didn't get salvation even though he saw the poor man in Heaven and asked God to send him to his brother.  The rich man knew the truth, after death, but he wasn't absolved of his faithlessness.  He was in hell.

I am a member of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad.

The Russian Orthodox Church Abroad is a self-governing Church under the Patriarchate of Moscow.

Question.....

1.  Am I a member Christ's Church and able to be saved?

2.  Not a member of Christ's Church and damned?

What does that have to do with Kallistos' explanation?  

Am I in a state of prelest because I believe I am in Christ's Church?  And that I am a priest?  What is the teaching of your bishop?

What does this have to do with Metropolitan Kallistos' teaching that a person, after death, can still be saved.  That's the point I was looking at.



Title added to name of the referenced bishop to make sure he receives the respect due his sacramental office in the Church... -PtA
« Last Edit: July 22, 2011, 12:20:48 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged

Stillness,  prayer, love and self-control are a four-horsed chariot bearing the intellect to Heaven. (Philokalia 2: p.308 - #24) - St. Thalassios

The proper activity of the intellect is to be attentive at every moment to the words of God.   (Philokalia 2: p. 308 - # 30) - St. Thalassios
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,964


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #23 on: July 22, 2011, 10:26:27 AM »

Those who are not Christians are judged according to their consciences. Christ is in the business of saving people, not damning them.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #24 on: July 22, 2011, 10:27:55 AM »

This is very sad.  So many people believe in this prelest.  "not till after death"?  It's too late then.  If they never accept Christ's Church in life, they will have to face their decision.   The story in the Bible of the poor man and the rich man (I forget his name), explains it.  The rich man didn't get salvation even though he saw the poor man in Heaven and asked God to send him to his brother.  The rich man knew the truth, after death, but he wasn't absolved of his faithlessness.  He was in hell.

I am a member of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad.

The Russian Orthodox Church Abroad is a self-governing Church under the Patriarchate of Moscow.

Question.....

1.  Am I a member Christ's Church and able to be saved?

2.  Not a member of Christ's Church and damned?

What does that have to do with Kallistos' explanation? 

Am I in a state of prelest because I believe I am in Christ's Church?  And that I am a priest?  What is the teaching of your bishop?

What does this have to do with Kallistos' teaching that a person, after death, can still be saved.  That's the point I was looking at. 

Yes, of course a person may be saved after death, even if they have died in very serious sin.  Only Roman Catholics and Protestants deny it.  This is an entirely scripturally based teaching.  Please read the second book of Maccabees 12: 39-46.

I would think a person would be in heresy to deny this; it is both the teaching of Scripture and of the Church.

Logged
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,964


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #25 on: July 22, 2011, 10:29:05 AM »

This is very sad.  So many people believe in this prelest.  "not till after death"?  It's too late then.  If they never accept Christ's Church in life, they will have to face their decision.   The story in the Bible of the poor man and the rich man (I forget his name), explains it.  The rich man didn't get salvation even though he saw the poor man in Heaven and asked God to send him to his brother.  The rich man knew the truth, after death, but he wasn't absolved of his faithlessness.  He was in hell.

I am a member of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad.

The Russian Orthodox Church Abroad is a self-governing Church under the Patriarchate of Moscow.

Question.....

1.  Am I a member Christ's Church and able to be saved?

2.  Not a member of Christ's Church and damned?

What does that have to do with Kallistos' explanation?  

Am I in a state of prelest because I believe I am in Christ's Church?  And that I am a priest?  What is the teaching of your bishop?

What does this have to do with Kallistos' teaching that a person, after death, can still be saved.  That's the point I was looking at. 

To say that someone after death cannot be saved is heresy. The dogma of the Church is that, through prayers and alms given for the dead, even those who were hardened sinners can receive help. This is a mystery. Until Christ returns, the state of the dead is changeable--not that the dead can help themselves, but that they can be helped by the living beseeching Christ and doing good in their names.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #26 on: July 22, 2011, 05:32:13 PM »

This is very sad.  So many people believe in this prelest.  "not till after death"?  It's too late then.  If they never accept Christ's Church in life, they will have to face their decision.   The story in the Bible of the poor man and the rich man (I forget his name), explains it.  The rich man didn't get salvation even though he saw the poor man in Heaven and asked God to send him to his brother.  The rich man knew the truth, after death, but he wasn't absolved of his faithlessness.  He was in hell.

I am a member of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad.

The Russian Orthodox Church Abroad is a self-governing Church under the Patriarchate of Moscow.

Question.....

1.  Am I a member Christ's Church and able to be saved?

2.  Not a member of Christ's Church and damned?

What does that have to do with Kallistos' explanation? 

Am I in a state of prelest because I believe I am in Christ's Church?  And that I am a priest?  What is the teaching of your bishop?

What does this have to do with Kallistos' teaching that a person, after death, can still be saved.  That's the point I was looking at. 

Yes, of course a person may be saved after death, even if they have died in very serious sin.  Only Roman Catholics and Protestants deny it.  This is an entirely scripturally based teaching.  Please read the second book of Maccabees 12: 39-46.

I would think a person would be in heresy to deny this; it is both the teaching of Scripture and of the Church.



*thumbs up*
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
stanley123
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic
Posts: 3,809


« Reply #27 on: July 22, 2011, 06:22:40 PM »

This is very sad.  So many people believe in this prelest.  "not till after death"?  It's too late then.  If they never accept Christ's Church in life, they will have to face their decision.   The story in the Bible of the poor man and the rich man (I forget his name), explains it.  The rich man didn't get salvation even though he saw the poor man in Heaven and asked God to send him to his brother.  The rich man knew the truth, after death, but he wasn't absolved of his faithlessness.  He was in hell.

I am a member of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad.

The Russian Orthodox Church Abroad is a self-governing Church under the Patriarchate of Moscow.

Question.....

1.  Am I a member Christ's Church and able to be saved?

2.  Not a member of Christ's Church and damned?

What does that have to do with Kallistos' explanation? 

Am I in a state of prelest because I believe I am in Christ's Church?  And that I am a priest?  What is the teaching of your bishop?

What does this have to do with Kallistos' teaching that a person, after death, can still be saved.  That's the point I was looking at. 

Yes, of course a person may be saved after death, even if they have died in very serious sin.  Only Roman Catholics and Protestants deny it.  This is an entirely scripturally based teaching.  Please read the second book of Maccabees 12: 39-46.

I would think a person would be in heresy to deny this; it is both the teaching of Scripture and of the Church.


Can a heretic be saved, even though he believes in the filioque and in the effects of mortal sin.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2011, 06:23:05 PM by stanley123 » Logged
Father H
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian--God's One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: UOCofUSA-Ecumenical Patriarchate
Posts: 2,535



« Reply #28 on: July 22, 2011, 06:37:06 PM »

Eternally damned? Really no one is yet eternally damned and we have no idea who will be in the end, if anyone.

True no one yet is eternally damned, but we know that some will be:
John 5:  Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of damnation. 30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.
Logged
Father H
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian--God's One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: UOCofUSA-Ecumenical Patriarchate
Posts: 2,535



« Reply #29 on: July 22, 2011, 06:38:40 PM »

This is very sad.  So many people believe in this prelest.  "not till after death"?  It's too late then.  If they never accept Christ's Church in life, they will have to face their decision.   The story in the Bible of the poor man and the rich man (I forget his name), explains it.  The rich man didn't get salvation even though he saw the poor man in Heaven and asked God to send him to his brother.  The rich man knew the truth, after death, but he wasn't absolved of his faithlessness.  He was in hell.

I am a member of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad.

The Russian Orthodox Church Abroad is a self-governing Church under the Patriarchate of Moscow.

Question.....

1.  Am I a member Christ's Church and able to be saved?

2.  Not a member of Christ's Church and damned?

What does that have to do with Kallistos' explanation? 

Am I in a state of prelest because I believe I am in Christ's Church?  And that I am a priest?  What is the teaching of your bishop?

What does this have to do with Kallistos' teaching that a person, after death, can still be saved.  That's the point I was looking at. 

Yes, of course a person may be saved after death, even if they have died in very serious sin.  Only Roman Catholics and Protestants deny it.  This is an entirely scripturally based teaching.  Please read the second book of Maccabees 12: 39-46.

I would think a person would be in heresy to deny this; it is both the teaching of Scripture and of the Church.


Can a heretic be saved, even though he believes in the filioque and in the effects of mortal sin.

What specifically are you talking about with "the effects of mortal sin"? 
Logged
Father H
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian--God's One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: UOCofUSA-Ecumenical Patriarchate
Posts: 2,535



« Reply #30 on: July 22, 2011, 06:46:06 PM »

This is very sad.  So many people believe in this prelest.  "not till after death"?  It's too late then.  If they never accept Christ's Church in life, they will have to face their decision.   The story in the Bible of the poor man and the rich man (I forget his name), explains it.  The rich man didn't get salvation even though he saw the poor man in Heaven and asked God to send him to his brother.  The rich man knew the truth, after death, but he wasn't absolved of his faithlessness.  He was in hell.

I am a member of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad.

The Russian Orthodox Church Abroad is a self-governing Church under the Patriarchate of Moscow.

Question.....

1.  Am I a member Christ's Church and able to be saved?

2.  Not a member of Christ's Church and damned?

What does that have to do with Kallistos' explanation? 

Am I in a state of prelest because I believe I am in Christ's Church?  And that I am a priest?  What is the teaching of your bishop?

What does this have to do with Kallistos' teaching that a person, after death, can still be saved.  That's the point I was looking at. 

Yes, of course a person may be saved after death, even if they have died in very serious sin.  Only Roman Catholics and Protestants deny it.  This is an entirely scripturally based teaching.  Please read the second book of Maccabees 12: 39-46.

I would think a person would be in heresy to deny this; it is both the teaching of Scripture and of the Church.



Correct
Logged
Volnutt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Agnostic/Universalist
Posts: 3,107


« Reply #31 on: July 22, 2011, 07:49:41 PM »

I can understand postmortem evangelism, but Met. Kallistos' view that someone can be part of the visible Church in this life without their knowledge seems like a stretch to me.

Eternally damned? Really no one is yet eternally damned and we have no idea who will be in the end, if anyone.

True no one yet is eternally damned, but we know that some will be:
John 5:  Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of damnation. 30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.
So in what sense is there a "hope of universalism" in Orthodoxy?
This is very sad.  So many people believe in this prelest.  "not till after death"?  It's too late then.  If they never accept Christ's Church in life, they will have to face their decision.   The story in the Bible of the poor man and the rich man (I forget his name), explains it.  The rich man didn't get salvation even though he saw the poor man in Heaven and asked God to send him to his brother.  The rich man knew the truth, after death, but he wasn't absolved of his faithlessness.  He was in hell.
I don't think that parable can be used for this. It never says the rich man was actually repentant. Perhaps he just wanted to escape suffering but had no more love for God or man than he did in life. Notice he never says "Forgive me, God" or "Forgive me, Lazarus." The fact that he cared about his brother is not absolutely indicative of a state of repentance. Also, as far as I've been told the Fathers interpret the gulf between them as being a pre-Resurrection feature.
Logged
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #32 on: July 22, 2011, 08:13:21 PM »

Eternally damned? Really no one is yet eternally damned and we have no idea who will be in the end, if anyone.

True no one yet is eternally damned, but we know that some will be:
John 5:  Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of damnation. 30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.

My main point that we have no idea, in any case, who will be ultimately damned stands regardless.
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
Father H
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian--God's One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: UOCofUSA-Ecumenical Patriarchate
Posts: 2,535



« Reply #33 on: July 22, 2011, 08:44:49 PM »

I can understand postmortem evangelism, but Met. Kallistos' view that someone can be part of the visible Church in this life without their knowledge seems like a stretch to me.

Eternally damned? Really no one is yet eternally damned and we have no idea who will be in the end, if anyone.

True no one yet is eternally damned, but we know that some will be:
John 5:  Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of damnation. 30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.
So in what sense is there a "hope of universalism" in Orthodoxy?
This is very sad.  So many people believe in this prelest.  "not till after death"?  It's too late then.  If they never accept Christ's Church in life, they will have to face their decision.   The story in the Bible of the poor man and the rich man (I forget his name), explains it.  The rich man didn't get salvation even though he saw the poor man in Heaven and asked God to send him to his brother.  The rich man knew the truth, after death, but he wasn't absolved of his faithlessness.  He was in hell.
I don't think that parable can be used for this. It never says the rich man was actually repentant. Perhaps he just wanted to escape suffering but had no more love for God or man than he did in life. Notice he never says "Forgive me, God" or "Forgive me, Lazarus." The fact that he cared about his brother is not absolutely indicative of a state of repentance. Also, as far as I've been told the Fathers interpret the gulf between them as being a pre-Resurrection feature.

There is no "hope of universalism."  Universalism is a heresy. 
Logged
Volnutt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Agnostic/Universalist
Posts: 3,107


« Reply #34 on: July 22, 2011, 09:14:21 PM »

Ok.
Logged
Fabio Leite
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 2,846



WWW
« Reply #35 on: July 22, 2011, 09:25:06 PM »

I think the gist of it is this: We know who has the Holy Spirit but it's not for us to say where He isn't.

We've discussed somethine like this before briefly, but frankly, I'm still rather hesitant about it all...  and we would have to decide where/when/why/etc. 1) the Church, 2) Salvation, 3) Holy Spirit, etc. are involved...  eh, I guess in the end it's in God's hands, and I have enough work to do on myself...

EDIT--On second thought, maybe that other thread is too different in content...

Deciding where the Pentecostal indwelling of the Holy Spirit is is an entirely different matter from deciding where the Holy Spirit works. It is clear that the Pentecostal indwelling is only in the Church, but it is also clear that the Holy Spirit works outside of the Church.

Right on!
Logged

Many Energies, Three Persons, Two Natures, One God.
TristanCross
Chief Of Sinners
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catechumen
Posts: 348


Romans 10:9-10


« Reply #36 on: July 22, 2011, 10:06:23 PM »

I am seriously doubting Orthodoxy due such comments:

Quote
Yes, of course a person may be saved after death, even if they have died in very serious sin.  Only Roman Catholics and Protestants deny it.  This is an entirely scripturally based teaching.  Please read the second book of Maccabees 12: 39-46.

I would think a person would be in heresy to deny this; it is both the teaching of Scripture and of the Church.

Quote
To say that someone after death cannot be saved is heresy. The dogma of the Church is that, through prayers and alms given for the dead, even those who were hardened sinners can receive help. This is a mystery. Until Christ returns, the state of the dead is changeable--not that the dead can help themselves, but that they can be helped by the living beseeching Christ and doing good in their names.

Quote
Those who are not Christians are judged according to their consciences. Christ is in the business of saving people, not damning them.
Logged

"Let the mouth also fast from disgraceful speeches and railings. For what does it profit if we abstain from fish and fowl and yet bite and devour our brothers and sisters? The evil speaker eats the flesh of his brother and bites the body of his neighbor. "
— St. John Chrysostom
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #37 on: July 22, 2011, 10:17:42 PM »

I can understand postmortem evangelism, but Met. Kallistos' view that someone can be part of the visible Church in this life without their knowledge seems like a stretch to me.

Eternally damned? Really no one is yet eternally damned and we have no idea who will be in the end, if anyone.

True no one yet is eternally damned, but we know that some will be:
John 5:  Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of damnation. 30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.
So in what sense is there a "hope of universalism" in Orthodoxy?
This is very sad.  So many people believe in this prelest.  "not till after death"?  It's too late then.  If they never accept Christ's Church in life, they will have to face their decision.   The story in the Bible of the poor man and the rich man (I forget his name), explains it.  The rich man didn't get salvation even though he saw the poor man in Heaven and asked God to send him to his brother.  The rich man knew the truth, after death, but he wasn't absolved of his faithlessness.  He was in hell.
I don't think that parable can be used for this. It never says the rich man was actually repentant. Perhaps he just wanted to escape suffering but had no more love for God or man than he did in life. Notice he never says "Forgive me, God" or "Forgive me, Lazarus." The fact that he cared about his brother is not absolutely indicative of a state of repentance. Also, as far as I've been told the Fathers interpret the gulf between them as being a pre-Resurrection feature.

There is no "hope of universalism."  Universalism is a heresy. 

There is a hope, Father, one more in less of the nature which Catholics have when their Catechism speaks of the hope of salvation for the unbaptized children.

"One should pray that Apokatastasis is true, but one would be foolish to teach it as doctrine."
~St Maximus the Confessor

Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #38 on: July 22, 2011, 10:26:36 PM »

]

I am seriously doubting Orthodoxy due such comments:

One glorious thing about our God is that He cannot be put into the boxes and constructs in which then human mind and human reason would like to imprison Him.    He is able to do glorious things which we cannot fathom.

I would say that you ought to read and pray on the teaching found in 2 Maccabees 12: 39-46 and you will either have to agree with the posibility of salvation from serious sin after death or, if you don't, you will have to start doubting Scripture.

Quote
Yes, of course a person may be saved after death, even if they have died in very serious sin.  Only Roman Catholics and Protestants deny it.  This is an entirely scripturally based teaching.  Please read the second book of Maccabees 12: 39-46.

I would think a person would be in heresy to deny this; it is both the teaching of Scripture and of the Church.

Quote
To say that someone after death cannot be saved is heresy. The dogma of the Church is that, through prayers and alms given for the dead, even those who were hardened sinners can receive help. This is a mystery. Until Christ returns, the state of the dead is changeable--not that the dead can help themselves, but that they can be helped by the living beseeching Christ and doing good in their names.

Quote
Those who are not Christians are judged according to their consciences. Christ is in the business of saving people, not damning them.
[/quote]
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #39 on: July 22, 2011, 10:32:15 PM »

I am seriously doubting Orthodoxy due such comments:

Dear Tristan,

Here is something on salvation from sin after death, in accord with the teaching of holy Scripture.

Please see message 175
at
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,37255.msg592638.html#msg592638
Logged
Father H
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian--God's One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: UOCofUSA-Ecumenical Patriarchate
Posts: 2,535



« Reply #40 on: July 22, 2011, 10:39:22 PM »

I can understand postmortem evangelism, but Met. Kallistos' view that someone can be part of the visible Church in this life without their knowledge seems like a stretch to me.

Eternally damned? Really no one is yet eternally damned and we have no idea who will be in the end, if anyone.

True no one yet is eternally damned, but we know that some will be:
John 5:  Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of damnation. 30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.
So in what sense is there a "hope of universalism" in Orthodoxy?
This is very sad.  So many people believe in this prelest.  "not till after death"?  It's too late then.  If they never accept Christ's Church in life, they will have to face their decision.   The story in the Bible of the poor man and the rich man (I forget his name), explains it.  The rich man didn't get salvation even though he saw the poor man in Heaven and asked God to send him to his brother.  The rich man knew the truth, after death, but he wasn't absolved of his faithlessness.  He was in hell.
I don't think that parable can be used for this. It never says the rich man was actually repentant. Perhaps he just wanted to escape suffering but had no more love for God or man than he did in life. Notice he never says "Forgive me, God" or "Forgive me, Lazarus." The fact that he cared about his brother is not absolutely indicative of a state of repentance. Also, as far as I've been told the Fathers interpret the gulf between them as being a pre-Resurrection feature.

There is no "hope of universalism."  Universalism is a heresy. 

There is a hope, Father, one more in less of the nature which Catholics have when their Catechism speaks of the hope of salvation for the unbaptized children.

"One should pray that Apokatastasis is true, but one would be foolish to teach it as doctrine."
~St Maximus the Confessor



That may be a statement you heard is seminary, but it is not something that St. Maximus the Confessor said, but a pseudo-quote. 
Logged
Father H
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian--God's One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: UOCofUSA-Ecumenical Patriarchate
Posts: 2,535



« Reply #41 on: July 22, 2011, 10:42:04 PM »

I am seriously doubting Orthodoxy due such comments:

Quote
Yes, of course a person may be saved after death, even if they have died in very serious sin.  Only Roman Catholics and Protestants deny it.  This is an entirely scripturally based teaching.  Please read the second book of Maccabees 12: 39-46.

I would think a person would be in heresy to deny this; it is both the teaching of Scripture and of the Church.

Quote
To say that someone after death cannot be saved is heresy. The dogma of the Church is that, through prayers and alms given for the dead, even those who were hardened sinners can receive help. This is a mystery. Until Christ returns, the state of the dead is changeable--not that the dead can help themselves, but that they can be helped by the living beseeching Christ and doing good in their names.

Quote
Those who are not Christians are judged according to their consciences. Christ is in the business of saving people, not damning them.

Well, you reject the latter because it is untrue.  Christ himself let us know he is in the business of saving and damning.  If you doubt Orthodoxy because of posts on the internet, it may be good for you to take a step back in your catecumenate as you may have a bit of growing to do first. 
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #42 on: July 22, 2011, 11:35:39 PM »

There is a hope, Father, one more in less of the nature which Catholics have when their Catechism speaks of the hope of salvation for the unbaptized children.

"One should pray that Apokatastasis is true, but one would be foolish to teach it as doctrine."
~St Maximus the Confessor



That may be a statement you heard is seminary, but it is not something that St. Maximus the Confessor said, but a pseudo-quote. 

Apocryphal or not the quote is nonetheless true since we dare not presume to say that any man is in Hell (apart from Arius since our sacred liturgical texts place him there.)   We dare not say that Nero, Hitler, Stalin or Polpot are in Hell and we dare not refuse to pray for their salvation.   This is the hope of Apokatastasis which is intrinsic to Christianity.


Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #43 on: July 23, 2011, 12:05:12 AM »

"Bishop Kallistos Ware, arguably the most important Orthodox scholar of this century has written an essay called, “Dare We Hope for the Salvation of All”, in a collection called “The Inner Kingdom”, where he references George MacDonald, C.S. Lewis and other church fathers.  It is a great essay (that’s putting it mildly!) and the only one I have found so far which can clearly state the Orthodox position on this doctrine which everyone wonders about (if they say they don’t wonder about it then they are probably not telling the truth).  I first read it in a collection of his while visiting my favorite monastery, but have recently discovered the work is available online and want to encourage my friends to read it.  It can be assessed through google by typing in keywords such as The Inner Kingdom or Kallistos Ware George MacDonald.  It is too large to reprint here.

"The article “Dare We Hope for the Salvation of All” by Kallistos Ware is useful for evaluating the constrasting strands in our tradition."

http://patricio2ahora.wordpress.com/2007/11/19/149/


I think I have to spend some cash and acquire this.  I detest reading long things on the Internet.
Logged
stanley123
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic
Posts: 3,809


« Reply #44 on: July 23, 2011, 12:15:59 AM »

There is a hope, Father, one more in less of the nature which Catholics have when their Catechism speaks of the hope of salvation for the unbaptized children.

"One should pray that Apokatastasis is true, but one would be foolish to teach it as doctrine."
~St Maximus the Confessor



That may be a statement you heard is seminary, but it is not something that St. Maximus the Confessor said, but a pseudo-quote. 

Apocryphal or not the quote is nonetheless true since we dare not presume to say that any man is in Hell (apart from Arius since our sacred liturgical texts place him there.)   We dare not say that Nero, Hitler, Stalin or Polpot are in Hell and we dare not refuse to pray for their salvation.   This is the hope of Apokatastasis which is intrinsic to Christianity.



How are we to understand Matthew 25:41?
Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Logged
TristanCross
Chief Of Sinners
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catechumen
Posts: 348


Romans 10:9-10


« Reply #45 on: July 23, 2011, 12:32:20 AM »

I am seriously doubting Orthodoxy due such comments:

Quote
Yes, of course a person may be saved after death, even if they have died in very serious sin.  Only Roman Catholics and Protestants deny it.  This is an entirely scripturally based teaching.  Please read the second book of Maccabees 12: 39-46.

I would think a person would be in heresy to deny this; it is both the teaching of Scripture and of the Church.

Quote
To say that someone after death cannot be saved is heresy. The dogma of the Church is that, through prayers and alms given for the dead, even those who were hardened sinners can receive help. This is a mystery. Until Christ returns, the state of the dead is changeable--not that the dead can help themselves, but that they can be helped by the living beseeching Christ and doing good in their names.

Quote
Those who are not Christians are judged according to their consciences. Christ is in the business of saving people, not damning them.

Well, you reject the latter because it is untrue.  Christ himself let us know he is in the business of saving and damning.  If you doubt Orthodoxy because of posts on the internet, it may be good for you to take a step back in your catecumenate as you may have a bit of growing to do first. 

Well, apparently to say that people can't be saved after death is a heresy...
Logged

"Let the mouth also fast from disgraceful speeches and railings. For what does it profit if we abstain from fish and fowl and yet bite and devour our brothers and sisters? The evil speaker eats the flesh of his brother and bites the body of his neighbor. "
— St. John Chrysostom
TristanCross
Chief Of Sinners
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catechumen
Posts: 348


Romans 10:9-10


« Reply #46 on: July 23, 2011, 12:32:20 AM »

There is a hope, Father, one more in less of the nature which Catholics have when their Catechism speaks of the hope of salvation for the unbaptized children.

"One should pray that Apokatastasis is true, but one would be foolish to teach it as doctrine."
~St Maximus the Confessor



That may be a statement you heard is seminary, but it is not something that St. Maximus the Confessor said, but a pseudo-quote. 

Apocryphal or not the quote is nonetheless true since we dare not presume to say that any man is in Hell (apart from Arius since our sacred liturgical texts place him there.)   We dare not say that Nero, Hitler, Stalin or Polpot are in Hell and we dare not refuse to pray for their salvation.   This is the hope of Apokatastasis which is intrinsic to Christianity.

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

John 14:6
Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Logged

"Let the mouth also fast from disgraceful speeches and railings. For what does it profit if we abstain from fish and fowl and yet bite and devour our brothers and sisters? The evil speaker eats the flesh of his brother and bites the body of his neighbor. "
— St. John Chrysostom
Tamara
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Diocese of America
Posts: 2,208


+Pray for Orthodox Unity+


« Reply #47 on: July 23, 2011, 01:40:48 AM »

Don't we damn ourselves by rejecting Christ? He already did everything He could to save us by dying on the cross, breaking the bonds of hades, trampling and destroying death, and emptying Hades of all its inhabitants.
We choose hell ourselves. And won't hell be standing in front of Christ and not being able to stand the fire of His love because we are sinful? Those who are holy will be warmed by His presence and those who are not will suffer from pain because His love is a consuming fire.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2011, 01:51:50 AM by Tamara » Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #48 on: July 23, 2011, 02:45:05 AM »

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

John 14:6
Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Proposition: Scripture teaches that only the Christians who have

1. believed in Christ. 

2. been baptized

3. received the Holy Spirit

4, fed on the Body and Blood of Christ

...... can be saved.

At this time that gives the possibility of salvation to only 300,000, 000 Orthodox Christians.

The population of the world today is around 6,930,000,000.

Therefore 6,630,000,000 people living today are damned..

In all justice it does appear quite wicked that God has called 6 billion souls into existence, knowing that their destiny is the eternal fires and torment of hell.  Really, would it be better if He had never created them?

In other words, those who will be standing on Christ's left hand and hear "Depart from me, ye cursed..." will be virtually innumerable in comparison to the few who will be saved standing on His right.

Do we have to look for another understanding of the quoted verses?
Logged
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,350



« Reply #49 on: July 23, 2011, 02:48:26 AM »

Father,

You might want to revisit that parable of the Last Judgement and take a look at the measure by which Christ judges.

Don't look nothing like you are talking about.

Again, I think there are going to be a lot of surprises. In fact, Christ says so.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #50 on: July 23, 2011, 02:56:48 AM »

Father,

You might want to revisit that parable of the Last Judgement and take a look at the measure by which Christ judges.

Don't look nothing like you are talking about.

Again, I think there are going to be a lot of surprises. In fact, Christ says so.

I am well aware that Matthew 25 virtually makes your salvation  dependent on your social works.

That is one aspect of salvation

I am asking if the statements by the Lord that you will be damned if you have not

1. believed in Christ. 

2. been baptized

3. received the Holy Spirit

4, fed on the Body and Blood of Christ

..... must be taken literally, to the damnation of the overwhelming population of the world.  These requisites for salvation -belief, baptism, chrismation, communion- are also part of the Saviour's teaching.
Logged
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 29,371



« Reply #51 on: July 23, 2011, 02:58:36 AM »

TristanCross,

The thing about it is, the passages in the Bible that have to do with salvation are trying to describe a mystery. They are meant to be understood together, through the interpretation given to the Church, and not as stand alone statements for each of us to interpret individually. We can't really fully understand salvation (because in the end God makes the decisions), but if we even want to get a handle on it, we have to look at the issue from a lot of different perspectives. That's why the Bible, and the Church Fathers, don't just talk about salvation in one way, but talk about salvation in many (sometimes seemingly contradictory) ways.

If we took everything literally and as stand alone statements, the Bible would contradict itself constantly. Is baptism necessary? Are we judged by deeds or faith? Etc.   Take Rom. 10:9 as an example: "If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved". Does this mean that people who are mentally handicapped and not able to "confess with their mouth" are condemned? Or how about we be even more literal: are mutes condemned? Does not the letter of Scripture say, right here in black and white, that your have to confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord to be saved?  But obviously the passage is just trying to make a point, and it has to be taken within the context of the rest of Scripture.

Don't throw away the passages you brought up. Don't even try to harmonize them, if by that word we mean getting everything in a nice little box so there doesn't seem to be contradictions. Just let the Bible speak, and take notice of what the Church through the centuries has said. And if you think some guys on a forum got it wrong, that's fine. But don't turn away from a faith (any faith) because of what someone on a message board said.

Man, this sounds like a lecture. Sorry!  Cheesy
Logged

Robb
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: RC
Jurisdiction: Italian Catholic
Posts: 1,537



« Reply #52 on: July 23, 2011, 03:08:44 AM »

This is very sad.  So many people believe in this prelest.  "not till after death"?  It's too late then.  If they never accept Christ's Church in life, they will have to face their decision.   The story in the Bible of the poor man and the rich man (I forget his name), explains it.  The rich man didn't get salvation even though he saw the poor man in Heaven and asked God to send him to his brother.  The rich man knew the truth, after death, but he wasn't absolved of his faithlessness.  He was in hell.

I am a member of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad.

The Russian Orthodox Church Abroad is a self-governing Church under the Patriarchate of Moscow.

Question.....

1.  Am I a member Christ's Church and able to be saved?

2.  Not a member of Christ's Church and damned?

What does that have to do with Kallistos' explanation? 

Am I in a state of prelest because I believe I am in Christ's Church?  And that I am a priest?  What is the teaching of your bishop?

What does this have to do with Kallistos' teaching that a person, after death, can still be saved.  That's the point I was looking at. 

Yes, of course a person may be saved after death, even if they have died in very serious sin.  Only Roman Catholics and Protestants deny it.  This is an entirely scripturally based teaching.  Please read the second book of Maccabees 12: 39-46.

I would think a person would be in heresy to deny this; it is both the teaching of Scripture and of the Church.



In all fairness it should be pointed out that this is a developing theological issue amongst we RC's.  No one can know whats in the mind of God or if/how it's possible to be saved at the last minute.  My mother is a big fan of the Divine Mercy devotion which teaches that a dying sinner can be saved if someone prays the chaplet for them, even if they have rejected Christ all their lives and do not want to be saved.  This is true, a pious belief, but the RCC is very big on the Divine Mercy devotion now and great comfort is given by it (As well as the theological virtue of hope).
Logged

Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
-- Gustave Flaubert
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #53 on: July 23, 2011, 03:32:25 AM »


What does this have to do with Metropolitan Kallistos' teaching that a person, after death, can still be saved.  That's the point I was looking at.


What is the problem?  The Metropolitan is 100% in line with sacred Scripture.

 Please read the second book of Maccabees 12: 39-46 and maybe consult your priest/bishop.
Logged
TristanCross
Chief Of Sinners
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catechumen
Posts: 348


Romans 10:9-10


« Reply #54 on: July 23, 2011, 03:38:17 AM »

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

John 14:6
Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Proposition: Scripture teaches that only the Christians who have

1. believed in Christ. 

2. been baptized

3. received the Holy Spirit

4, fed on the Body and Blood of Christ

...... can be saved.

At this time that gives the possibility of salvation to only 300,000, 000 Orthodox Christians.

The population of the world today is around 6,930,000,000.

Therefore 6,630,000,000 people living today are damned..

In all justice it does appear quite wicked that God has called 6 billion souls into existence, knowing that their destiny is the eternal fires and torment of hell.  Really, would it be better if He had never created them?

In other words, those who will be standing on Christ's left hand and hear "Depart from me, ye cursed..." will be virtually innumerable in comparison to the few who will be saved standing on His right.

Do we have to look for another understanding of the quoted verses?

Matthew 7:13-14
“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Sad, but true.

Also, many who have never heard of Christ may be saved as well, as well as those who are Christians but are not of our Church (though, they certainly will be fully of the Church after the final judgment). That make the number saved about 2 billion, but then we would have to exclude those who are Christian by name and not by practice. Either way, numbers do not matter. God isn't playing a numbers game with Satan. In fact, if only one person in all of history was saved by Christ, His work would not have been in vain.

Romans 11:5
So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.
Logged

"Let the mouth also fast from disgraceful speeches and railings. For what does it profit if we abstain from fish and fowl and yet bite and devour our brothers and sisters? The evil speaker eats the flesh of his brother and bites the body of his neighbor. "
— St. John Chrysostom
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #55 on: July 23, 2011, 04:32:19 AM »

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

John 14:6
Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Proposition: Scripture teaches that only the Christians who have

1. believed in Christ. 

2. been baptized

3. received the Holy Spirit

4, fed on the Body and Blood of Christ

...... can be saved.

At this time that gives the possibility of salvation to only 300,000, 000 Orthodox Christians.

The population of the world today is around 6,930,000,000.

Therefore 6,630,000,000 people living today are damned..

In all justice it does appear quite wicked that God has called 6 billion souls into existence, knowing that their destiny is the eternal fires and torment of hell.  Really, would it be better if He had never created them?

In other words, those who will be standing on Christ's left hand and hear "Depart from me, ye cursed..." will be virtually innumerable in comparison to the few who will be saved standing on His right.

Do we have to look for another understanding of the quoted verses?

Matthew 7:13-14
“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Sad, but true.

I believe that the Holy Fathers see "the narrow gate which leads to life" as belief in Jesus Christ.  Is that what you are saying here?

How then do we understand the possibility of salvation for the Jews of Israel, the Mormons of Utah, the Jehovah's Witnesses of New York, the Buddhists of Tibet and the Hindus of India?  Can they be saved or are they damned?  Is there a possibility that at death they encounter Christ and the truth and He holds out His hands to them?
Logged
Stephen St. Pierre
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Inquirer to Eastern Orthodoxy
Posts: 94


This user has been banned.


« Reply #56 on: July 23, 2011, 04:59:35 AM »

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

John 14:6
Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Proposition: Scripture teaches that only the Christians who have

1. believed in Christ. 

2. been baptized

3. received the Holy Spirit

4, fed on the Body and Blood of Christ

...... can be saved.

At this time that gives the possibility of salvation to only 300,000, 000 Orthodox Christians.

The population of the world today is around 6,930,000,000.

Therefore 6,630,000,000 people living today are damned..

In all justice it does appear quite wicked that God has called 6 billion souls into existence, knowing that their destiny is the eternal fires and torment of hell.  Really, would it be better if He had never created them?

In other words, those who will be standing on Christ's left hand and hear "Depart from me, ye cursed..." will be virtually innumerable in comparison to the few who will be saved standing on His right.

Do we have to look for another understanding of the quoted verses?

Well, you're supposing that the numbers will be the same when the end comes. Mayhap when Christ returns the stats will have swung the other way a bit?

I don't believe the (true) Gospel has been preached through the world yet. I just heard about it 3 years ago or so. It may be quite some time before Christ returns yet! When is the "fullness of the nations" going to come in?

We should be working on the 6,930,000,000 in the meantime.
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #57 on: July 23, 2011, 05:39:17 AM »

There is a hope, Father, one more in less of the nature which Catholics have when their Catechism speaks of the hope of salvation for the unbaptized children.

"One should pray that Apokatastasis is true, but one would be foolish to teach it as doctrine."
~St Maximus the Confessor



That may be a statement you heard is seminary, but it is not something that St. Maximus the Confessor said, but a pseudo-quote. 

Well, we may have breakthrough about the source thanks to the kind person who wrote and said the words are in Saint Maximus the Confessor's "Expositions on Psalm 59" in Migne's Patrologia Graeca.

My problem is that I do not have access to the Patrologia Graeca, and even if I did I cannot read Greek.

Very grateful to any Greek speaker who can check this.
Logged
TristanCross
Chief Of Sinners
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catechumen
Posts: 348


Romans 10:9-10


« Reply #58 on: July 23, 2011, 02:02:58 PM »

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

John 14:6
Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Proposition: Scripture teaches that only the Christians who have

1. believed in Christ. 

2. been baptized

3. received the Holy Spirit

4, fed on the Body and Blood of Christ

...... can be saved.

At this time that gives the possibility of salvation to only 300,000, 000 Orthodox Christians.

The population of the world today is around 6,930,000,000.

Therefore 6,630,000,000 people living today are damned..

In all justice it does appear quite wicked that God has called 6 billion souls into existence, knowing that their destiny is the eternal fires and torment of hell.  Really, would it be better if He had never created them?

In other words, those who will be standing on Christ's left hand and hear "Depart from me, ye cursed..." will be virtually innumerable in comparison to the few who will be saved standing on His right.

Do we have to look for another understanding of the quoted verses?

Matthew 7:13-14
“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Sad, but true.

I believe that the Holy Fathers see "the narrow gate which leads to life" as belief in Jesus Christ.  Is that what you are saying here?

How then do we understand the possibility of salvation for the Jews of Israel, the Mormons of Utah, the Jehovah's Witnesses of New York, the Buddhists of Tibet and the Hindus of India?  Can they be saved or are they damned?  Is there a possibility that at death they encounter Christ and the truth and He holds out His hands to them?

That's completely unscriptural and foreign to Christianity. The belief that "oh you can go to heaven even if you don't believe in Jesus" is a modernist scam. If it is true, then our preaching is done and vain and amounts to nothing. There is one way to the Father, not many. The reason Christ is the only way is because Christ is the only one who solved the problem.
Logged

"Let the mouth also fast from disgraceful speeches and railings. For what does it profit if we abstain from fish and fowl and yet bite and devour our brothers and sisters? The evil speaker eats the flesh of his brother and bites the body of his neighbor. "
— St. John Chrysostom
TristanCross
Chief Of Sinners
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catechumen
Posts: 348


Romans 10:9-10


« Reply #59 on: July 23, 2011, 02:02:59 PM »

"But he that shall deny me before men, I will also deny him before my Father who is in heaven." - Matthew 10:33
Logged

"Let the mouth also fast from disgraceful speeches and railings. For what does it profit if we abstain from fish and fowl and yet bite and devour our brothers and sisters? The evil speaker eats the flesh of his brother and bites the body of his neighbor. "
— St. John Chrysostom
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #60 on: July 23, 2011, 03:27:46 PM »

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

John 14:6
Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Proposition: Scripture teaches that only the Christians who have

1. believed in Christ. 

2. been baptized

3. received the Holy Spirit

4, fed on the Body and Blood of Christ

...... can be saved.

At this time that gives the possibility of salvation to only 300,000, 000 Orthodox Christians.

The population of the world today is around 6,930,000,000.

Therefore 6,630,000,000 people living today are damned..

In all justice it does appear quite wicked that God has called 6 billion souls into existence, knowing that their destiny is the eternal fires and torment of hell.  Really, would it be better if He had never created them?

In other words, those who will be standing on Christ's left hand and hear "Depart from me, ye cursed..." will be virtually innumerable in comparison to the few who will be saved standing on His right.

Do we have to look for another understanding of the quoted verses?

Matthew 7:13-14
“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Sad, but true.

I believe that the Holy Fathers see "the narrow gate which leads to life" as belief in Jesus Christ.  Is that what you are saying here?

How then do we understand the possibility of salvation for the Jews of Israel, the Mormons of Utah, the Jehovah's Witnesses of New York, the Buddhists of Tibet and the Hindus of India?  Can they be saved or are they damned?  Is there a possibility that at death they encounter Christ and the truth and He holds out His hands to them?

That's completely unscriptural and foreign to Christianity. The belief that "oh you can go to heaven even if you don't believe in Jesus" is a modernist scam. If it is true, then our preaching is done and vain and amounts to nothing. There is one way to the Father, not many. The reason Christ is the only way is because Christ is the only one who solved the problem.



How then do we understand the possibility of salvation for the Jews of Israel, the Mormons of Utah, the Jehovah's Witnesses of New York, the Buddhists of Tibet and the Hindus of India?  Can they be saved or are they damned?  Is there a possibility that at death they encounter Christ and the truth and He holds out His hands to them?

That's completely unscriptural and foreign to Christianity. The belief that "oh you can go to heaven even if you don't believe in Jesus" is a modernist scam. If it is true, then our preaching is done and vain and amounts to nothing. There is one way to the Father, not many. The reason Christ is the only way is because Christ is the only one who solved the problem.

Oops!   If you are not prepared to admit the possibility for the salvation of Jews, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Buddhists and Hindus, then you may need to spend some time of your catechumenate studying these issues under the guidamce of your parish priest.   What I have said is quite scriptural and not at all foreign to Christianity.

The Orthodox will continue to state they are the Church until the Day of Judgement.  They will go on saying it plainly so that the world knows where truth is to be found.  But the Orthodox will NOT say that men and women outside the Church cannot be saved.

If we look at the sacred Scriptures we see that Saint Paul has already given the apostolic teaching quite cogently and told us how it occurs that non-Christians may be saved before the Judgement Seat of Christ.. 

Romans 2 - the salvation of non-believers:

  "...for when Gentiles, who do not have the law,
  by nature do the things in the law, these, although
  not having the law, are a law to themselves, who
  show the work of the law written in their hearts,
  their conscience also bearing witness, and between
  themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing
  them in the day when God will judge the secrets of men
  by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel."
 
~ Romans 2:14-16

So we have, from the words of Christ Himself:

No faith = no salvation
No Baptism = no salvation
No Communion = no salvation

and yet.....

Salvation *is* possible without Baptism and Communion according to the inspired Scriptures in the words of the Apostle Paul.

The Church has never resolved this paradox. I am sure it never will.  We are able to live with it and trust in the mercy of God who "wills all men to be saved."

Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #61 on: July 23, 2011, 03:36:45 PM »


That's completely unscriptural and foreign to Christianity. The belief that "oh you can go to heaven even if you don't believe in Jesus" is a modernist scam. If it is true, then our preaching is done and vain and amounts to nothing. There is one way to the Father, not many. The reason Christ is the only way is because Christ is the only one who solved the problem.

Tristan,  what is your position?  Scripture tells us that for salvation we must have faith in Jesus Christ, we must be baptized, we must eat and drink His Body and Blood.  These things are possible only within the Orthodox Church.  Are you saying that only the Orthodox can be saved?
Logged
Father H
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian--God's One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: UOCofUSA-Ecumenical Patriarchate
Posts: 2,535



« Reply #62 on: July 23, 2011, 05:47:05 PM »

I am seriously doubting Orthodoxy due such comments:

Quote
Yes, of course a person may be saved after death, even if they have died in very serious sin.  Only Roman Catholics and Protestants deny it.  This is an entirely scripturally based teaching.  Please read the second book of Maccabees 12: 39-46.

I would think a person would be in heresy to deny this; it is both the teaching of Scripture and of the Church.

Quote
To say that someone after death cannot be saved is heresy. The dogma of the Church is that, through prayers and alms given for the dead, even those who were hardened sinners can receive help. This is a mystery. Until Christ returns, the state of the dead is changeable--not that the dead can help themselves, but that they can be helped by the living beseeching Christ and doing good in their names.

Quote
Those who are not Christians are judged according to their consciences. Christ is in the business of saving people, not damning them.

Well, you reject the latter because it is untrue.  Christ himself let us know he is in the business of saving and damning.  If you doubt Orthodoxy because of posts on the internet, it may be good for you to take a step back in your catecumenate as you may have a bit of growing to do first. 

Well, apparently to say that people can't be saved after death is a heresy...

Ah.  To say that people cannot be saved after death is different than saying that the will not be saved after death.  We know that many who can will not. 
Logged
Father H
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian--God's One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: UOCofUSA-Ecumenical Patriarchate
Posts: 2,535



« Reply #63 on: July 23, 2011, 05:48:53 PM »

There is a hope, Father, one more in less of the nature which Catholics have when their Catechism speaks of the hope of salvation for the unbaptized children.

"One should pray that Apokatastasis is true, but one would be foolish to teach it as doctrine."
~St Maximus the Confessor



That may be a statement you heard is seminary, but it is not something that St. Maximus the Confessor said, but a pseudo-quote. 

Apocryphal or not the quote is nonetheless true since we dare not presume to say that any man is in Hell (apart from Arius since our sacred liturgical texts place him there.)   We dare not say that Nero, Hitler, Stalin or Polpot are in Hell and we dare not refuse to pray for their salvation.   This is the hope of Apokatastasis which is intrinsic to Christianity.


So "universalism minus Arius" is your position?   The devil can be saved but Arius will not?
Logged
Volnutt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Agnostic/Universalist
Posts: 3,107


« Reply #64 on: July 23, 2011, 06:27:46 PM »

Tristan, we also need to remember that any one who did not believe in this life and would be saved afterward will only be saved in the name of Jesus, by a grafting into and acceptance of His Lordship.
Logged
stanley123
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic
Posts: 3,809


« Reply #65 on: July 23, 2011, 06:44:15 PM »

  Scripture tells us that for salvation we must have faith in Jesus Christ, we must be baptized, we must eat and drink His Body and Blood.  These things are possible only within the Orthodox Church. 
Let's see. There are 20,000 Orthodox Christians in the People's Republic of China, which has a population of 1.33 billion. So does the white man say then that God will condemn to eternal damnation 1.3 billion Chinese? I don't think so.
Logged
biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Church
Posts: 12,740


Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου

fleem
WWW
« Reply #66 on: July 23, 2011, 10:00:54 PM »

I thought that being in the Church, one could experience God's grace, and thereby have the potential to attain salvation. Outside of the Church, one may be outside of God's grace, but you are not, I should think, outside of God's mercy- He is not obligated to save you, but He may if He wishes. Otherwise, everybody who didn't have the good luck to be born to Orthodox parents, all but 300 million people in the world, might as well put a gun to their heads right now.  Embarrassed
Logged

Charlie Rose: If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be?

Fran Lebowitz: Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisfied.

http://spcasuncoast.org/
Father H
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian--God's One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: UOCofUSA-Ecumenical Patriarchate
Posts: 2,535



« Reply #67 on: July 23, 2011, 10:33:07 PM »

I thought that being in the Church, one could experience God's grace, and thereby have the potential to attain salvation. Outside of the Church, one may be outside of God's grace, but you are not, I should think, outside of God's mercy- He is not obligated to save you, but He may if He wishes. Otherwise, everybody who didn't have the good luck to be born to Orthodox parents, all but 300 million people in the world, might as well put a gun to their heads right now.  Embarrassed

Don't mean to derail but weren't you Orthodox at one time?  If I am wrong forgive the failures of my memory. 
Logged
Marc1152
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Rocor
Posts: 12,531


Probiotic .. Antibiotic


« Reply #68 on: July 23, 2011, 10:35:16 PM »

Here is a story I heard once:

Many years ago there was a Japanese Samurai who was about to convert to Christianity. But he had one last question for the Priest  (who was a Jesuit). He said to the Priest; " My Parents are both dead and never were Baptized. Are they in Hell?"

The Jesuit replied "Yes, I am afraid they are"

The Samurai paused for a moment or two and said: "Then I can not be Baptized. My duty is to be with my Parents after I die."
Logged

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Church
Posts: 12,740


Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου

fleem
WWW
« Reply #69 on: July 23, 2011, 10:36:28 PM »

I was, yes. I'm still going to the same parish. I put my old church in my description because I have yet to be chrismated, so I can't say I'm Orthodox yet.
Logged

Charlie Rose: If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be?

Fran Lebowitz: Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisfied.

http://spcasuncoast.org/
Volnutt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Agnostic/Universalist
Posts: 3,107


« Reply #70 on: July 23, 2011, 10:51:44 PM »

I thought that being in the Church, one could experience God's grace, and thereby have the potential to attain salvation. Outside of the Church, one may be outside of God's grace, but you are not, I should think, outside of God's mercy- He is not obligated to save you, but He may if He wishes. Otherwise, everybody who didn't have the good luck to be born to Orthodox parents, all but 300 million people in the world, might as well put a gun to their heads right now.  Embarrassed
I don't think it's as bad as all that. As the world gets smaller, those who truly hunger and thirst after righteousness have even more chances to research Orthodoxy.

Also, I think to be under God's mercy is ipso facto to receive Grace.
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #71 on: July 23, 2011, 10:56:38 PM »

There is a hope, Father, one more in less of the nature which Catholics have when their Catechism speaks of the hope of salvation for the unbaptized children.

"One should pray that Apokatastasis is true, but one would be foolish to teach it as doctrine."
~St Maximus the Confessor



That may be a statement you heard is seminary, but it is not something that St. Maximus the Confessor said, but a pseudo-quote. 

Apocryphal or not the quote is nonetheless true since we dare not presume to say that any man is in Hell (apart from Arius since our sacred liturgical texts place him there.)   We dare not say that Nero, Hitler, Stalin or Polpot are in Hell and we dare not refuse to pray for their salvation.   This is the hope of Apokatastasis which is intrinsic to Christianity.


So "universalism minus Arius" is your position?   The devil can be saved but Arius will not?

No, FatherHLL, that has not been said by me.  I hope also that the will of our God "who willeth that all men should be saved" (1Tim 2:4) may come to pass but that also is not a proclamation of Universalism but an alignment of my will with God's.
Logged
Robb
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: RC
Jurisdiction: Italian Catholic
Posts: 1,537



« Reply #72 on: July 24, 2011, 01:02:05 AM »

Here is a story I heard once:

Many years ago there was a Japanese Samurai who was about to convert to Christianity. But he had one last question for the Priest  (who was a Jesuit). He said to the Priest; " My Parents are both dead and never were Baptized. Are they in Hell?"

The Jesuit replied "Yes, I am afraid they are"

The Samurai paused for a moment or two and said: "Then I can not be Baptized. My duty is to be with my Parents after I die."

I'm not calling you a liar, but I personally find that story rather far fetched and hard to believe.  The Society of Jesus never taught that salvation was impossible for non Catholics who were sincere to the best of their abilities.  This sounds like an anti Catholic polemic for sure.
Logged

Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
-- Gustave Flaubert
TristanCross
Chief Of Sinners
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catechumen
Posts: 348


Romans 10:9-10


« Reply #73 on: July 24, 2011, 03:02:35 AM »

  Scripture tells us that for salvation we must have faith in Jesus Christ, we must be baptized, we must eat and drink His Body and Blood.  These things are possible only within the Orthodox Church. 
Let's see. There are 20,000 Orthodox Christians in the People's Republic of China, which has a population of 1.33 billion. So does the white man say then that God will condemn to eternal damnation 1.3 billion Chinese? I don't think so.

I really hope you weren't referring to me as "the white man".
Logged

"Let the mouth also fast from disgraceful speeches and railings. For what does it profit if we abstain from fish and fowl and yet bite and devour our brothers and sisters? The evil speaker eats the flesh of his brother and bites the body of his neighbor. "
— St. John Chrysostom
TristanCross
Chief Of Sinners
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catechumen
Posts: 348


Romans 10:9-10


« Reply #74 on: July 24, 2011, 10:59:51 AM »

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

John 14:6
Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Proposition: Scripture teaches that only the Christians who have

1. believed in Christ. 

2. been baptized

3. received the Holy Spirit

4, fed on the Body and Blood of Christ

...... can be saved.

At this time that gives the possibility of salvation to only 300,000, 000 Orthodox Christians.

The population of the world today is around 6,930,000,000.

Therefore 6,630,000,000 people living today are damned..

In all justice it does appear quite wicked that God has called 6 billion souls into existence, knowing that their destiny is the eternal fires and torment of hell.  Really, would it be better if He had never created them?

In other words, those who will be standing on Christ's left hand and hear "Depart from me, ye cursed..." will be virtually innumerable in comparison to the few who will be saved standing on His right.

Do we have to look for another understanding of the quoted verses?

Matthew 7:13-14
“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Sad, but true.

I believe that the Holy Fathers see "the narrow gate which leads to life" as belief in Jesus Christ.  Is that what you are saying here?

How then do we understand the possibility of salvation for the Jews of Israel, the Mormons of Utah, the Jehovah's Witnesses of New York, the Buddhists of Tibet and the Hindus of India?  Can they be saved or are they damned?  Is there a possibility that at death they encounter Christ and the truth and He holds out His hands to them?

That's completely unscriptural and foreign to Christianity. The belief that "oh you can go to heaven even if you don't believe in Jesus" is a modernist scam. If it is true, then our preaching is done and vain and amounts to nothing. There is one way to the Father, not many. The reason Christ is the only way is because Christ is the only one who solved the problem.



How then do we understand the possibility of salvation for the Jews of Israel, the Mormons of Utah, the Jehovah's Witnesses of New York, the Buddhists of Tibet and the Hindus of India?  Can they be saved or are they damned?  Is there a possibility that at death they encounter Christ and the truth and He holds out His hands to them?

That's completely unscriptural and foreign to Christianity. The belief that "oh you can go to heaven even if you don't believe in Jesus" is a modernist scam. If it is true, then our preaching is done and vain and amounts to nothing. There is one way to the Father, not many. The reason Christ is the only way is because Christ is the only one who solved the problem.

Oops!   If you are not prepared to admit the possibility for the salvation of Jews, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Buddhists and Hindus, then you may need to spend some time of your catechumenate studying these issues under the guidamce of your parish priest.   What I have said is quite scriptural and not at all foreign to Christianity.

The Orthodox will continue to state they are the Church until the Day of Judgement.  They will go on saying it plainly so that the world knows where truth is to be found.  But the Orthodox will NOT say that men and women outside the Church cannot be saved.

If we look at the sacred Scriptures we see that Saint Paul has already given the apostolic teaching quite cogently and told us how it occurs that non-Christians may be saved before the Judgement Seat of Christ.. 

Romans 2 - the salvation of non-believers:

  "...for when Gentiles, who do not have the law,
  by nature do the things in the law, these, although
  not having the law, are a law to themselves, who
  show the work of the law written in their hearts,
  their conscience also bearing witness, and between
  themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing
  them in the day when God will judge the secrets of men
  by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel."
 
~ Romans 2:14-16

So we have, from the words of Christ Himself:

No faith = no salvation
No Baptism = no salvation
No Communion = no salvation

and yet.....

Salvation *is* possible without Baptism and Communion according to the inspired Scriptures in the words of the Apostle Paul.

The Church has never resolved this paradox. I am sure it never will.  We are able to live with it and trust in the mercy of God who "wills all men to be saved."



In regards to that quote from Romans, context indicates that he is speaking of how things were before the Gospel was introduced. The point he was making was that the Jews were wrong in boasting about having the Law, and that the Gentiles who did not have the Law, and yet obeyed it naturally, had a much better gift (for the Gentiles obeyed what they knew in their hearts without being given the Law, while the Jews did not even have basic morality, even though God entrusted them with the Law). That may be true today, as well, but only for those who know nothing of Christ. But, as Christ said, those who do hear of Him and have heard the Gospel, but reject it, will not be saved and are "condemned already".
Logged

"Let the mouth also fast from disgraceful speeches and railings. For what does it profit if we abstain from fish and fowl and yet bite and devour our brothers and sisters? The evil speaker eats the flesh of his brother and bites the body of his neighbor. "
— St. John Chrysostom
Marc1152
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Rocor
Posts: 12,531


Probiotic .. Antibiotic


« Reply #75 on: July 24, 2011, 09:32:14 PM »

Here is a story I heard once:

Many years ago there was a Japanese Samurai who was about to convert to Christianity. But he had one last question for the Priest  (who was a Jesuit). He said to the Priest; " My Parents are both dead and never were Baptized. Are they in Hell?"

The Jesuit replied "Yes, I am afraid they are"

The Samurai paused for a moment or two and said: "Then I can not be Baptized. My duty is to be with my Parents after I die."

I'm not calling you a liar, but I personally find that story rather far fetched and hard to believe.  The Society of Jesus never taught that salvation was impossible for non Catholics who were sincere to the best of their abilities.  This sounds like an anti Catholic polemic for sure.

Wow..Chill

No, I am not lying that I heard that story. I really heard it... No lie. Whether or not it's true is really not very important now is it? Stories sometimes illustrate a point.. They are not always literal..

Okay.. I'm exhausted now.
Logged

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #76 on: July 24, 2011, 10:00:24 PM »

St. Cyril of Alexandria has a significant passage:

"For if there is one over all, and there is no other besides Him, He would
be master of all, because He was Maker of all. For He is also the God of
the gentiles, and has fully satisfied by laws implanted in their hearts,
which the Maker has engraved in the hearts of all. For when the gentiles,
(Paul) says, not having the law, do by nature the things of the law, they
show the work of the law written on their hearts. But since He is not only
the Maker and God of the Jews, but also of the gentiles . . . He sees fit
by His providence to care not only for those who are of the blood of
Israel, but also for all those upon the earth."

Interpretation of the Epistle to the Romans

« Last Edit: July 24, 2011, 10:03:09 PM by Irish Hermit » Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #77 on: July 24, 2011, 10:11:14 PM »

"But he that shall deny me before men, I will also deny him before my Father who is in heaven." - Matthew 10:33

Dear Tristan,

Who would argue with those words of our Lord?  Surely nobody.

But what is confusing me is that you seem to be saying that those outside the Church are damned.

Is this what the OCA is teaching its catechumens these days?   Shocked

Or are you just bouncing off your former Protestant ideas to get some Orthodox responses on the forum?
Logged
Volnutt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Agnostic/Universalist
Posts: 3,107


« Reply #78 on: July 24, 2011, 10:23:58 PM »

He's saying not becoming Orthodox is the same as denying Christ.
Logged
celticfan1888
Production Operator - Chemtrusion
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholicism
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church of America
Posts: 3,026



« Reply #79 on: July 24, 2011, 10:47:08 PM »

Eternally damned? Really no one is yet eternally damned and we have no idea who will be in the end, if anyone.

Very, very true.
Logged

Forgive my sins.
stanley123
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic
Posts: 3,809


« Reply #80 on: July 24, 2011, 10:57:26 PM »

Here is a story I heard once:

Many years ago there was a Japanese Samurai who was about to convert to Christianity. But he had one last question for the Priest  (who was a Jesuit). He said to the Priest; " My Parents are both dead and never were Baptized. Are they in Hell?"

The Jesuit replied "Yes, I am afraid they are"

The Samurai paused for a moment or two and said: "Then I can not be Baptized. My duty is to be with my Parents after I die."

I'm not calling you a liar, but I personally find that story rather far fetched and hard to believe.  The Society of Jesus never taught that salvation was impossible for non Catholics who were sincere to the best of their abilities.  This sounds like an anti Catholic polemic for sure.
That is my impression also. This is more anti-Catholic propaganda.
Logged
Marc1152
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Rocor
Posts: 12,531


Probiotic .. Antibiotic


« Reply #81 on: July 24, 2011, 11:43:53 PM »

Here is a story I heard once:

Many years ago there was a Japanese Samurai who was about to convert to Christianity. But he had one last question for the Priest  (who was a Jesuit). He said to the Priest; " My Parents are both dead and never were Baptized. Are they in Hell?"

The Jesuit replied "Yes, I am afraid they are"

The Samurai paused for a moment or two and said: "Then I can not be Baptized. My duty is to be with my Parents after I die."

I'm not calling you a liar, but I personally find that story rather far fetched and hard to believe.  The Society of Jesus never taught that salvation was impossible for non Catholics who were sincere to the best of their abilities.  This sounds like an anti Catholic polemic for sure.
That is my impression also. This is more anti-Catholic propaganda.

I think it is too. It's one way the Japanese defended themselves against the Roman Catholics before they tossed them out of the country. Point well made though.
Logged

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
Robb
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: RC
Jurisdiction: Italian Catholic
Posts: 1,537



« Reply #82 on: July 25, 2011, 02:28:41 AM »

Here is a story I heard once:

Many years ago there was a Japanese Samurai who was about to convert to Christianity. But he had one last question for the Priest  (who was a Jesuit). He said to the Priest; " My Parents are both dead and never were Baptized. Are they in Hell?"

The Jesuit replied "Yes, I am afraid they are"

The Samurai paused for a moment or two and said: "Then I can not be Baptized. My duty is to be with my Parents after I die."

I'm not calling you a liar, but I personally find that story rather far fetched and hard to believe.  The Society of Jesus never taught that salvation was impossible for non Catholics who were sincere to the best of their abilities.  This sounds like an anti Catholic polemic for sure.
That is my impression also. This is more anti-Catholic propaganda.

I think it is too. It's one way the Japanese defended themselves against the Roman Catholics before they tossed them out of the country. Point well made though.

Well, the Japanese defended themselves alright.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyrs_of_Japan

Logged

Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
-- Gustave Flaubert
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,964


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #83 on: July 25, 2011, 09:47:20 AM »

He's saying not becoming Orthodox is the same as denying Christ.

That's an extreme position. The Orthodox have the fullness of Christ, but Christ cannot be contained in a box. He is actively seeking souls outside the Church to save them. And, if there is no Orthodox church around, or if the person has no means of becoming Orthodox, Christ Himself will supply what is necessary for His salvation. He is in the business of saving people. No one will be left with an excuse with which to accuse Christ of injustice on the day of judgment. No one will be damned by circumstances beyond their control. If our Christ makes note of sins (who could stand it?), how much more does He make note of how His light shines in the lives of those who fear Him, even of those who fear Him without completely knowing Him.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Volnutt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Agnostic/Universalist
Posts: 3,107


« Reply #84 on: July 25, 2011, 10:14:40 AM »

I agree.
Logged
Marc1152
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Rocor
Posts: 12,531


Probiotic .. Antibiotic


« Reply #85 on: July 25, 2011, 10:20:04 AM »

Here is a story I heard once:

Many years ago there was a Japanese Samurai who was about to convert to Christianity. But he had one last question for the Priest  (who was a Jesuit). He said to the Priest; " My Parents are both dead and never were Baptized. Are they in Hell?"

The Jesuit replied "Yes, I am afraid they are"

The Samurai paused for a moment or two and said: "Then I can not be Baptized. My duty is to be with my Parents after I die."

I'm not calling you a liar, but I personally find that story rather far fetched and hard to believe.  The Society of Jesus never taught that salvation was impossible for non Catholics who were sincere to the best of their abilities.  This sounds like an anti Catholic polemic for sure.
That is my impression also. This is more anti-Catholic propaganda.

I think it is too. It's one way the Japanese defended themselves against the Roman Catholics before they tossed them out of the country. Point well made though.

Well, the Japanese defended themselves alright.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyrs_of_Japan



It's very hard to find who the good guys are in Japanese history. The problem with RCC missionaries is that they often tried to destroy the local culture, which met with Resistance and rightly so. On the other hand the Japanese were brutal beyond all reason or purpose. IMHO
Logged

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
Jonathan Gress
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOC/HOTCA
Posts: 3,018


« Reply #86 on: July 25, 2011, 10:30:29 AM »

An interpretation that I find convincing is that all those who die outside the Church go to Hades, which would be consistent with what we otherwise know is necessary for salvation: the true faith (Orthodoxy), repentance, and the sacraments (particularly Baptism and the Eucharist). However, we cannot extrapolate from this that all those who go to Hades will be cast into Gehenna after the Last Judgment, since we know that while the Last Judgment is irrevocable, it is possible for God to rescue souls from Hades. Therefore, claims that the Fathers taught that all those who died outside the Church will be burned for eternity are confusing Hades and Gehenna.
Logged
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,964


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #87 on: July 25, 2011, 10:46:45 AM »

An interpretation that I find convincing is that all those who die outside the Church go to Hades, which would be consistent with what we otherwise know is necessary for salvation: the true faith (Orthodoxy), repentance, and the sacraments (particularly Baptism and the Eucharist). However, we cannot extrapolate from this that all those who go to Hades will be cast into Gehenna after the Last Judgment, since we know that while the Last Judgment is irrevocable, it is possible for God to rescue souls from Hades. Therefore, claims that the Fathers taught that all those who died outside the Church will be burned for eternity are confusing Hades and Gehenna.

Indeed.

To die separated from the Orthodox Church is a very grave thing, which is why prayers for departed non-Orthodox such as the Canon to St. Warus speak much about their souls being in darkness and necessity. However, this is not to say they are damned, since the last judgment has not yet occurred. Also, the mystery of death and the particular judgment is to be respected. While nothing is impossible for God, He has not revealed to us that those who are separated from the Church and sacraments go to paradise and experience refreshment after their repose. We have more information to the contrary from the teachings of the fathers and the liturgical services, as well as some anecdotal evidence from visions, etc. From this, however, I do not think we can allow ourselves to assume anything more about the non-Orthodox reposed than we can about the Orthodox reposed (with the exception of those whose sanctity has been revealed), that they are in need of prayers and alms done in their names. Nothing, really, is to be gained by speculating about the fate of the non-Orthodox since this is beyond us, and could lead us to put off our necessary work of prayer and almsgiving for the reposed, whoever they may be.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
TristanCross
Chief Of Sinners
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catechumen
Posts: 348


Romans 10:9-10


« Reply #88 on: July 25, 2011, 03:29:58 PM »

He's saying not becoming Orthodox is the same as denying Christ.

No, I was saying that if we deny Christ Himself, not just Orthodoxy, then you are condemned already. I believe in the salvation of Protestants as they are justified by faith in Christ (not faith alone, though).
Logged

"Let the mouth also fast from disgraceful speeches and railings. For what does it profit if we abstain from fish and fowl and yet bite and devour our brothers and sisters? The evil speaker eats the flesh of his brother and bites the body of his neighbor. "
— St. John Chrysostom
TristanCross
Chief Of Sinners
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catechumen
Posts: 348


Romans 10:9-10


« Reply #89 on: July 25, 2011, 03:29:58 PM »

"But he that shall deny me before men, I will also deny him before my Father who is in heaven." - Matthew 10:33

Dear Tristan,

Who would argue with those words of our Lord?  Surely nobody.

But what is confusing me is that you seem to be saying that those outside the Church are damned.

Is this what the OCA is teaching its catechumens these days?   Shocked

Or are you just bouncing off your former Protestant ideas to get some Orthodox responses on the forum?

I'm simply testing the belief that virtually anyone can be saved based on what I've known and believed as a Lutheran for years. I can not accept it until I can find my arguments refuted by Scripture and/or the Fathers. My conscience is captive to Christ, the Logos, and, thus, I can not throw His words away when He claims to be the only way to salvation, and that to deny Him is to blaspheme the Holy Spirit and causes a man to be condemned.
Logged

"Let the mouth also fast from disgraceful speeches and railings. For what does it profit if we abstain from fish and fowl and yet bite and devour our brothers and sisters? The evil speaker eats the flesh of his brother and bites the body of his neighbor. "
— St. John Chrysostom
Tags:
Pages: 1 2 All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.336 seconds with 116 queries.