OrthodoxChristianity.net
July 28, 2014, 02:28:00 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Vatican II's Orientalium Ecclesarium  (Read 474 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Nephi
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Auntie Oak
Posts: 4,063



« on: December 21, 2013, 05:36:10 PM »

Read it here.

An Eastern Catholic I spoke to recently said their understanding of EC-Papal relations was in line with this document, so I decided to read it and had a couple thoughts and points I wanted to bring up here, but any discussion on the topic is more than welcome.

Quote
15. The faithful are bound to take part on Sundays and feast days in the Divine Liturgy or, according to the regulations or custom of their own rite, in the celebration of the Divine Office.(17) That the faithful may be able more easily to fulfill their obligation, it is laid down that the period of time within which the precept should be observed extends from the Vespers of the vigil to the end of the Sunday or the feast day.(18) The faithful are earnestly exhorted to receive Holy Communion on these days, and indeed more frequently-yes, even daily.(19)

I may be wrong, but the above sounds pretty Latin (or at least pushing uniformity) in tone and practice. Daily communion, "obligation," etc. Does this mean all Eastern Catholics gave up infrequent communion and push daily communion?

Anyway, the other point I wanted to bring up was the relationship between the Pope and the EC patriarchs/archbishops/etc. laid out in the document. It makes regular reference to the primacy of the Roman Pontiff. It says the Pope has the right to interfere with episcopal ordinations within a patriarch's own jurisdiction - I assume this would be a problem for all Orthodox (Eastern and Oriental)? It goes on to say:

Quote
11. Seeing that the patriarchal office in the Eastern Church is a traditional form of government, the Sacred Ecumenical Council ardently desires that new patriarchates should be erected where there is need, to be established either by an ecumenical council or by the Roman Pontiff.(13)

Would the highlighted part be a problem for us in terms of defining primacy?
Logged

Liberalochian: Unionist-Ecumenism Lite™
Santagranddad
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: ROCA
Posts: 988



« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2013, 06:57:49 PM »

As the Bishop of Rome is not a member of the Orthodox Church he may claim whatever he wishes but he has no authority or foundation for his claims, as far as Orthodoxy is concerned.
Logged
Nephi
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Auntie Oak
Posts: 4,063



« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2013, 07:24:44 PM »

As the Bishop of Rome is not a member of the Orthodox Church he may claim whatever he wishes but he has no authority or foundation for his claims, as far as Orthodoxy is concerned.

That's really not my point, as I'm not aware of anyone saying he's part of Orthodoxy.
Logged

Liberalochian: Unionist-Ecumenism Lite™
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2013, 04:38:59 PM »

Read it here.

An Eastern Catholic I spoke to recently said their understanding of EC-Papal relations was in line with this document, so I decided to read it and had a couple thoughts and points I wanted to bring up here, but any discussion on the topic is more than welcome.

Quote
15. The faithful are bound to take part on Sundays and feast days in the Divine Liturgy or, according to the regulations or custom of their own rite, in the celebration of the Divine Office.(17) That the faithful may be able more easily to fulfill their obligation, it is laid down that the period of time within which the precept should be observed extends from the Vespers of the vigil to the end of the Sunday or the feast day.(18) The faithful are earnestly exhorted to receive Holy Communion on these days, and indeed more frequently-yes, even daily.(19)

I may be wrong, but the above sounds pretty Latin (or at least pushing uniformity) in tone and practice. Daily communion, "obligation," etc. Does this mean all Eastern Catholics gave up infrequent communion and push daily communion?

Anyway, the other point I wanted to bring up was the relationship between the Pope and the EC patriarchs/archbishops/etc. laid out in the document. It makes regular reference to the primacy of the Roman Pontiff. It says the Pope has the right to interfere with episcopal ordinations within a patriarch's own jurisdiction - I assume this would be a problem for all Orthodox (Eastern and Oriental)? It goes on to say:

Quote
11. Seeing that the patriarchal office in the Eastern Church is a traditional form of government, the Sacred Ecumenical Council ardently desires that new patriarchates should be erected where there is need, to be established either by an ecumenical council or by the Roman Pontiff.(13)

Would the highlighted part be a problem for us in terms of defining primacy?
Since it is at present a problem in New Rome's definition of primacy also, yes.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,878


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2013, 09:16:46 PM »

Read it here.

An Eastern Catholic I spoke to recently said their understanding of EC-Papal relations was in line with this document, so I decided to read it and had a couple thoughts and points I wanted to bring up here, but any discussion on the topic is more than welcome.

Quote
15. The faithful are bound to take part on Sundays and feast days in the Divine Liturgy or, according to the regulations or custom of their own rite, in the celebration of the Divine Office.(17) That the faithful may be able more easily to fulfill their obligation, it is laid down that the period of time within which the precept should be observed extends from the Vespers of the vigil to the end of the Sunday or the feast day.(18) The faithful are earnestly exhorted to receive Holy Communion on these days, and indeed more frequently-yes, even daily.(19)

I may be wrong, but the above sounds pretty Latin (or at least pushing uniformity) in tone and practice. Daily communion, "obligation," etc. Does this mean all Eastern Catholics gave up infrequent communion and push daily communion?

First there is no daily Communion obligation, there isn't even a weekly obligation.  At least once a year during Pascha is the obligation.  Earnest exhortation does not an obligation make.  Was infrequent Communion given up?  I would say yes, most people commune weekly.  Is daily Communion pushed?  You would have to have daily Liturgy for that and most Greek Catholic parishes do not have it.  So no I would say it is not pushed.  That may vary among other Eastern Catholics.  I suspect it may be encouraged in the Syro-Malabar and Syro-Malankar Churches as they have a surplus of priests and the ability to have daily Liturgy.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2013, 09:17:27 PM by Deacon Lance » Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Nephi
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Auntie Oak
Posts: 4,063



« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2013, 09:58:01 PM »

First there is no daily Communion obligation, there isn't even a weekly obligation.  At least once a year during Pascha is the obligation.  Earnest exhortation does not an obligation make.  Was infrequent Communion given up?  I would say yes, most people commune weekly.  Is daily Communion pushed?  You would have to have daily Liturgy for that and most Greek Catholic parishes do not have it.  So no I would say it is not pushed.  That may vary among other Eastern Catholics.  I suspect it may be encouraged in the Syro-Malabar and Syro-Malankar Churches as they have a surplus of priests and the ability to have daily Liturgy.

Thank you for clarifying.
Logged

Liberalochian: Unionist-Ecumenism Lite™
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2013, 10:26:31 PM »

Read it here.

An Eastern Catholic I spoke to recently said their understanding of EC-Papal relations was in line with this document, so I decided to read it and had a couple thoughts and points I wanted to bring up here, but any discussion on the topic is more than welcome.

Quote
15. The faithful are bound to take part on Sundays and feast days in the Divine Liturgy or, according to the regulations or custom of their own rite, in the celebration of the Divine Office.(17) That the faithful may be able more easily to fulfill their obligation, it is laid down that the period of time within which the precept should be observed extends from the Vespers of the vigil to the end of the Sunday or the feast day.(18) The faithful are earnestly exhorted to receive Holy Communion on these days, and indeed more frequently-yes, even daily.(19)

I may be wrong, but the above sounds pretty Latin (or at least pushing uniformity) in tone and practice. Daily communion, "obligation," etc. Does this mean all Eastern Catholics gave up infrequent communion and push daily communion?

First there is no daily Communion obligation, there isn't even a weekly obligation.  At least once a year during Pascha is the obligation.  Earnest exhortation does not an obligation make.  Was infrequent Communion given up?  I would say yes, most people commune weekly.  Is daily Communion pushed?  You would have to have daily Liturgy for that and most Greek Catholic parishes do not have it.  So no I would say it is not pushed.  That may vary among other Eastern Catholics.  I suspect it may be encouraged in the Syro-Malabar and Syro-Malankar Churches as they have a surplus of priests and the ability to have daily Liturgy.
is that because they gave up and succumbed to the Vatican's celibacy mandate on all clergy?

With daily communion, the married clergy could be done away with, without having to actually mandat it.  "Yes, even daily"
« Last Edit: December 22, 2013, 10:27:24 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
podkarpatska
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,021


SS Cyril and Methodius Church, Mercer, PA


WWW
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2013, 10:50:18 PM »

Read it here.

An Eastern Catholic I spoke to recently said their understanding of EC-Papal relations was in line with this document, so I decided to read it and had a couple thoughts and points I wanted to bring up here, but any discussion on the topic is more than welcome.

Quote
15. The faithful are bound to take part on Sundays and feast days in the Divine Liturgy or, according to the regulations or custom of their own rite, in the celebration of the Divine Office.(17) That the faithful may be able more easily to fulfill their obligation, it is laid down that the period of time within which the precept should be observed extends from the Vespers of the vigil to the end of the Sunday or the feast day.(18) The faithful are earnestly exhorted to receive Holy Communion on these days, and indeed more frequently-yes, even daily.(19)

I may be wrong, but the above sounds pretty Latin (or at least pushing uniformity) in tone and practice. Daily communion, "obligation," etc. Does this mean all Eastern Catholics gave up infrequent communion and push daily communion?

First there is no daily Communion obligation, there isn't even a weekly obligation.  At least once a year during Pascha is the obligation.  Earnest exhortation does not an obligation make.  Was infrequent Communion given up?  I would say yes, most people commune weekly.  Is daily Communion pushed?  You would have to have daily Liturgy for that and most Greek Catholic parishes do not have it.  So no I would say it is not pushed.  That may vary among other Eastern Catholics.  I suspect it may be encouraged in the Syro-Malabar and Syro-Malankar Churches as they have a surplus of priests and the ability to have daily Liturgy.

But by the same token, in the OCA and the ACROD, when the Greek Catholics came into Orthodoxy they did bring with them vestiges of the concept of 'obligation' which was part of their culture for three centuries. The better than average attendance at Sunday liturgy in both jurisdictions, as evidenced in the 2011 Kindritch study for the Assembly of Bishops, bears witness to this.

Also, when they came to Orthodoxy, infrequent communion was the norm. I'm old enough to remember the exhortations for the faithful to have their confessions heard during Lent and to do their 'Easter Duty.' But, following the ideas about the frequency of receiving Communion which were encouraged by the faculty of St. Vladimir's during the 1960's and 1970's, both in the OCA and the ACROD it is the common practice in many, if not most parishes, for frequent Sunday communion by the faithful on a regular basis so I'm not sure there is any point in making this an east-west Latin practice issue.
Logged
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Online Online

Posts: 15,368


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2013, 10:52:03 PM »

First there is no daily Communion obligation, there isn't even a weekly obligation.  At least once a year during Pascha is the obligation.  Earnest exhortation does not an obligation make.  Was infrequent Communion given up?  I would say yes, most people commune weekly.  Is daily Communion pushed?  You would have to have daily Liturgy for that and most Greek Catholic parishes do not have it.  So no I would say it is not pushed.  That may vary among other Eastern Catholics.  I suspect it may be encouraged in the Syro-Malabar and Syro-Malankar Churches as they have a surplus of priests and the ability to have daily Liturgy.
is that because they gave up and succumbed to the Vatican's celibacy mandate on all clergy?

With daily communion, the married clergy could be done away with, without having to actually mandat it.  "Yes, even daily"

I was actually going to address this earlier, but I needed to fix dinner.  Smiley

That the Malabar and Malankara Catholics have a surplus of priests is, in many ways, a great thing for them, but I don't really think this has anything to do with daily Liturgies among them.  Both Churches adopted or accepted mandatory clerical celibacy and have no evident interest in abolishing it, whether or not Rome has an opinion on the matter.  I don't think the demand is there, and obviously it's not getting in the way of vocations, so why fix what isn't broken?    

With regard to the Malabar Catholics, celibacy plus a general Latinised ethos bordering on substandard imitation of "Novus Ordo Roman Catholicism" will get you daily Liturgy (they even have "Low Mass"--I attended one in NY once).    

The Malankara Catholics are less Latinised, but their founder imposed clerical celibacy when it was not demanded by Rome because, as a monastic, he felt monastic clergy were better and more useful (I'm sure it helped that "Big Brother" felt more or less the same).  They have adopted certain other Latinisations and Latinisms (which I define here as things associated with but not really part of the Roman tradition), but I'm not sure if daily Liturgy is as common among them as it is among the Malabar Catholics, if for no other reason than that they don't have a "Low Mass" format.  In India, they probably have daily Liturgy in many of their churches, but that's not uncommon even among the better staffed Orthodox churches there.  As far as I know, it's non-existent in America: the only instance I know of where a Malankara Catholic priest has daily Liturgy in his parish involves a priest on loan to the local RC diocese who was appointed pastor (sole priest) of a RC parish...but his daily Liturgy is, of course, in the Roman rite.  

    
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,878


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2013, 10:54:01 PM »

Read it here.

An Eastern Catholic I spoke to recently said their understanding of EC-Papal relations was in line with this document, so I decided to read it and had a couple thoughts and points I wanted to bring up here, but any discussion on the topic is more than welcome.

Quote
15. The faithful are bound to take part on Sundays and feast days in the Divine Liturgy or, according to the regulations or custom of their own rite, in the celebration of the Divine Office.(17) That the faithful may be able more easily to fulfill their obligation, it is laid down that the period of time within which the precept should be observed extends from the Vespers of the vigil to the end of the Sunday or the feast day.(18) The faithful are earnestly exhorted to receive Holy Communion on these days, and indeed more frequently-yes, even daily.(19)

I may be wrong, but the above sounds pretty Latin (or at least pushing uniformity) in tone and practice. Daily communion, "obligation," etc. Does this mean all Eastern Catholics gave up infrequent communion and push daily communion?

First there is no daily Communion obligation, there isn't even a weekly obligation.  At least once a year during Pascha is the obligation.  Earnest exhortation does not an obligation make.  Was infrequent Communion given up?  I would say yes, most people commune weekly.  Is daily Communion pushed?  You would have to have daily Liturgy for that and most Greek Catholic parishes do not have it.  So no I would say it is not pushed.  That may vary among other Eastern Catholics.  I suspect it may be encouraged in the Syro-Malabar and Syro-Malankar Churches as they have a surplus of priests and the ability to have daily Liturgy.
is that because they gave up and succumbed to the Vatican's celibacy mandate on all clergy?

With daily communion, the married clergy could be done away with, without having to actually mandat it.  "Yes, even daily"
The Syro-Malabars are the worst example of Latinization but the Syro-Malankars adopted celibacy voluntarily when founded as their founding Metropolitan thought it better.  In any case it hasn't hurt them as they have vocations to spare.  I suspect it works because Indian culture sees value in celibacy.  And Rome has no celibacy mandate on all clergy as thousands of married deacons and priests, Latin and Eastern show.
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Online Online

Posts: 15,368


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2013, 11:12:21 PM »

I suspect it works because Indian culture sees value in celibacy.  

Yes and no.  Yes, because we do see value in celibacy.  No, because I don't think we see it the way you may think we see it. 
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,878


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2013, 11:27:29 PM »

I suspect it works because Indian culture sees value in celibacy.  

Yes and no.  Yes, because we do see value in celibacy.  No, because I don't think we see it the way you may think we see it. 
I was thinking the larger Indian culture honors the self mastery and the joy of detachment practiced by celibate Hindu monks and sees an analog in Christian monasticism and priesthood, whereas American culture looks at celibacy as weird and possibly deviant and sees no value in it.  If I am in error I welcome correction.
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Online Online

Posts: 15,368


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2013, 12:46:31 AM »

I was thinking the larger Indian culture honors the self mastery and the joy of detachment practiced by celibate Hindu monks and sees an analog in Christian monasticism and priesthood, whereas American culture looks at celibacy as weird and possibly deviant and sees no value in it.  If I am in error I welcome correction.

It's not inaccurate to say that Indian culture honours celibacy for the self-mastery, detachment, and other virtues it implies, but there are several factors at play, Father.  First, the celibacy that is celebrated for these reasons is precisely a voluntary celibacy.  Many, if not most, of the Hindu priests are married, and marriage is also highly honoured for many reasons.  The expectation (even among Christians) is that people will get married.  To forsake the blessings of married life in order to embrace ascetic struggle is, in a sense, "Mary choosing the better part"...it is the exception, not the expectation.  But to force celibacy on someone who may not want it because it's the only way he can do what he really wants (i.e., be a priest) is not necessarily viewed as "self-control" and "detachment".  To put it charitably, it's a puzzling imposition.

Another important difference is that celibacy is not monasticism.  A monastic context offers a tremendous amount of communal support for a celibate lifestyle.  A married priest has the community of his wife and children to offer necessary support.  A celibate priest is neither here nor there.  It's considerably more respectful than lay bachelorhood, but it raises some of the same suspicions.  These are only exacerbated by the stories of wayward clergy.  Our people enjoy gossip, and the more unsubstantiated the better because the substantiated stories are pretty bad, whether they involve sex or money or what have you.  There are less checks on a clerical bachelor than there are on a monk or a husband. 

Another consideration is that, whatever the wider Indian culture thinks about celibacy, Indian Christianity operates, for the most part, like a mildly evangelistic caste: it doesn't really matter what the wider, non-Christian culture thinks, it matters how "we" view it.  The Orthodox view is the most like the Hindu view, and the Protestants don't really need a reason to be suspicious of Catholics. 

The Catholic Church in India is, IIRC, the largest single religious group with a foreign allegiance.  A celibate clergy can be interpreted as a more efficient "attack force", able to be mobilised wherever, take on whatever tasks, work with whomever, without attachments or baggage.  That may sound like paranoia, but there is at least some of that. 

All of that to say that it's not really because of the high esteem Indians have for celibacy that celibacy works for Eastern Catholics in India.  Don't take this the wrong way, but my impression of them is that they're (Roman) Catholic first, and Eastern second.  To put it more polemically, they really do seem like "Roman Catholics of the X Rite" (some more so than others)  And Catholicism is not just a form of Christianity, it's the "true Church" where the others are false, and recognising the authority of the Pope is part of what is necessary to be saved: he is, after all, the Vicar of Christ--the visible God, Jesus on earth (I'm not exaggerating, this is the understanding of people with whom I've spoken).  If all that is true, and part of what they identify with Catholicism is priestly celibacy, that's a small price to pay for priesthood, for heaven, for God himself.  It works not because of Indian values but because of Roman Catholic values, however much they are not in line with actual Catholic teaching. 

If American culture looks at celibacy as weird, deviant, and without value, I suspect that is much more a hang-up about sex.  And while that's certainly a factor nowadays, was celibacy always considered strange in America?  If so, how much of that was about sex and how much was about other factors?   

Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,878


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #13 on: December 23, 2013, 01:00:39 AM »

As always, thanks for the important insights.  Much to ponder.
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Alpo
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox. With some feta, please.
Posts: 6,500



« Reply #14 on: December 23, 2013, 03:52:51 AM »

What's the difference between Malankara and Malabar Catholics?

Btw, I had some course on Indian religions as a part of my studies. The actual dogmas and practices were not that hard to comprehend but various names and terms were insane. Something which any proper ignorant Western heterosexual White male cannot understand.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2013, 03:58:19 AM by Alpo » Logged
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Online Online

Posts: 15,368


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2013, 10:50:09 AM »

What's the difference between Malankara and Malabar Catholics?

Btw, I had some course on Indian religions as a part of my studies. The actual dogmas and practices were not that hard to comprehend but various names and terms were insane. Something which any proper ignorant Western heterosexual White male cannot understand.

Smiley

Malabar Catholics follow a form of the East Syriac liturgy, while Malankara Catholics follow the West Syriac liturgy.  They are distinct Churches with their own jurisdictions.
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
Alpo
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox. With some feta, please.
Posts: 6,500



« Reply #16 on: December 23, 2013, 10:52:20 AM »

So other came from OOs and other from Nestorians?
Logged
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Online Online

Posts: 15,368


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #17 on: December 23, 2013, 10:54:34 AM »

So other came from OOs and other from Nestorians Assyrians?

Basically, yes.
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.097 seconds with 46 queries.