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Author Topic: Greek-Catholic Catechism Released  (Read 2930 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: July 16, 2011, 04:40:25 AM »

The Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Catechism was released three weeks ago.

A video clip of the event
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=A5-7nBcvnrI


Some articles, in Ukrainian:

An interview with one of the editors:

http://www.ugcc.org.ua/1851.0.html

Also, a couple of news items from the Ukrainian press:

http://vgolos.com.ua/politic/news/42781.html

http://galinfo.com.ua/news/90024.html

http://vgolos.com.ua/politic/news/42770.html

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« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2011, 06:13:59 AM »

Released a month ago and not a comment from anywhere?!!

What's your opinion, Ukrainians and Ruthenians?

Will it be used fot catechesis in the States?
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« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2011, 09:00:24 AM »

Released a month ago and not a comment from anywhere?!!

What's your opinion, Ukrainians and Ruthenians?

Will it be used fot catechesis in the States?
Given the fan fare the CCC was given before it was available, rather odd.
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« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2011, 09:05:20 AM »

I am also interested in reaction to this.  It may take years before it is translated into English.  Can anyone give insights as to what is written about various subjects such as:

Papal supremacy/infallibility
Immaculate Conception
Original sin
purgatory
etc....?
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« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2011, 11:21:06 AM »

I am also interested in reaction to this.  It may take years before it is translated into English.  Can anyone give insights as to what is written about various subjects such as:

Papal supremacy/infallibility
Immaculate Conception
Original sin
purgatory
etc....?

I too am curious to see how diplomatic (for lack of a better term) the catechism will be on these issues.
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« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2011, 12:43:51 PM »

Released a month ago and not a comment from anywhere?!!

What's your opinion, Ukrainians and Ruthenians?

Will it be used fot catechesis in the States?
Given the fan fare the CCC was given before it was available, rather odd.

It's a big internet, I'm sure you could find some comments about it and quote them here, if you want.
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« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2011, 01:18:17 PM »

Released a month ago and not a comment from anywhere?!!

What's your opinion, Ukrainians and Ruthenians?

Will it be used fot catechesis in the States?

Hard to tell who outside of the Ukranian jurisdiction will pick it up.  The Ruthenians already have a pretty well developed set of materials used to catechize children and adults. 

I am curious about the newly released catechism's presentation: format, organization, content, primary emphases

There are some early hints here about what it looks like, and I like what I see in broad terms.

http://www.stjosaphateparchy.org/news061.html

Unlike many of the local catechisms of the pre-Vatican II Roman rite the eastern Catholic local catechetical materials do not seem to be limited to a question and answer format but are written as narratives and written for an audience who thinks as well as believes.  They are much more "alive" in that sense and give the adult faithful credit for being able to manage to apprehend and comprehend a living faith, and an active spiritual life of prayer, alms giving and fasting.

Here is a local Roman rite catechism in narrative form.  It was published after the Catechism of the Catholic Church.  I have the first edition of this catechism and it too gives adult Catholics credit for being somewhat knowledgeable about a lived faith and spiritual life.  It is, in some ways, similar in tone to the Trent Catechism but with even more depth in terms of the evocation of a daily and self-conscious life in Christ.

http://www.catholiccompany.com/teaching-christ-catholic-catechism-adults-p1001941/

The Catechism of the Catholic Church is the normative catechism for the papal Church, so one cannot have a local catechism that teaches against anything that is located in the CCC.  The CCC and the liturgical cycle of the particular Churches should be the reference point for all local Catholic Catechisms.  There is no requirement for an itemized or systematic laundry list of doctrinal points in any Catechism.  Not even the normative CCC, nor Scripture for that matter, contains all that can be said or should be said about the Trinity and Incarnation.  However the Church is one, and though not monolithic, there is the often unspoken understanding that one may not emphasize a teaching, or one may emphasize a teaching in local terms,  but that does not mean that a teaching from the universal catechism [CCC] can be emphatically denied or regarded as heterodox or heretical.

So anyone looking for laundry lists in the newly released Ukranian catechism is going to be disappointed.  And anyone ready to pounce on what may not be emphasized in the newly released catechism and claim that it is not necessary to be believed is going to also be in for a disappointment...thankfully.

M.

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« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2011, 03:58:48 PM »

The Catechism of the Catholic Church is the normative catechism for the papal Church, so one cannot have a local catechism that teaches against anything that is located in the CCC.  The CCC and the liturgical cycle of the particular Churches should be the reference point for all local Catholic Catechisms.  There is no requirement for an itemized or systematic laundry list of doctrinal points in any Catechism.  Not even the normative CCC, nor Scripture for that matter, contains all that can be said or should be said about the Trinity and Incarnation.  However the Church is one, and though not monolithic, there is the often unspoken understanding that one may not emphasize a teaching, or one may emphasize a teaching in local terms,  but that does not mean that a teaching from the universal catechism [CCC] can be emphatically denied or regarded as heterodox or heretical.

In summary:  Total submission to Rome.  Cheesy
« Last Edit: July 26, 2011, 03:59:04 PM by Mickey » Logged
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« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2011, 04:21:35 PM »

The Catechism of the Catholic Church is the normative catechism for the papal Church, so one cannot have a local catechism that teaches against anything that is located in the CCC.  The CCC and the liturgical cycle of the particular Churches should be the reference point for all local Catholic Catechisms.  There is no requirement for an itemized or systematic laundry list of doctrinal points in any Catechism.  Not even the normative CCC, nor Scripture for that matter, contains all that can be said or should be said about the Trinity and Incarnation.  However the Church is one, and though not monolithic, there is the often unspoken understanding that one may not emphasize a teaching, or one may emphasize a teaching in local terms,  but that does not mean that a teaching from the universal catechism [CCC] can be emphatically denied or regarded as heterodox or heretical.

In summary:  Total submission to Rome.  Cheesy

 Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

Here we go.  Again.  Does it *never* end?
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« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2011, 04:27:29 PM »

Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

Here we go.  Again.  Does it *never* end?


When you get in bed with the devil you have to be prepared for the cleaning lady catching you in an awkward position.
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« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2011, 04:30:49 PM »

Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

Here we go.  Again.  Does it *never* end?


When you get in bed with the devil you have to be prepared for the cleaning lady catching you in an awkward position.

Thing is, the Ukrainians (whether they call themselves Carpatho Russian or Ukrainians, they are all Ukrainians) were under Polish rule at the time they got traded to the Vatican.  How do you blame anyone for it when the government, country and kingdon and monarchy and so forth don't even exist anymore? 
I'm  "Christos Nasha Pascha" is probably a far better book than the older books (even like the Chlib Dusi).
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« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2011, 04:47:50 PM »

Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

Here we go.  Again.  Does it *never* end?


When you get in bed with the devil you have to be prepared for the cleaning lady catching you in an awkward position.

Thing is, the Ukrainians (whether they call themselves Carpatho Russian or Ukrainians, they are all Ukrainians) were under Polish rule at the time they got traded to the Vatican.  How do you blame anyone for it when the government, country and kingdon and monarchy and so forth don't even exist anymore? 
I'm  "Christos Nasha Pascha" is probably a far better book than the older books (even like the Chlib Dusi).

Except when their citizenship is Slovak, Romanian or Polish. Wink
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« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2011, 04:54:24 PM »

The Catechism of the Catholic Church is the normative catechism for the papal Church, so one cannot have a local catechism that teaches against anything that is located in the CCC.  The CCC and the liturgical cycle of the particular Churches should be the reference point for all local Catholic Catechisms.  There is no requirement for an itemized or systematic laundry list of doctrinal points in any Catechism.  Not even the normative CCC, nor Scripture for that matter, contains all that can be said or should be said about the Trinity and Incarnation.  However the Church is one, and though not monolithic, there is the often unspoken understanding that one may not emphasize a teaching, or one may emphasize a teaching in local terms,  but that does not mean that a teaching from the universal catechism [CCC] can be emphatically denied or regarded as heterodox or heretical.

In summary:  Total submission to Rome.  Cheesy
Come back home Mickey
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« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2011, 05:06:24 PM »

Come back home Mickey

Not all of us have so big a bug up our bum about Rome.
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« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2011, 05:08:08 PM »

Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

Here we go.  Again.  Does it *never* end?


When you get in bed with the devil you have to be prepared for the cleaning lady catching you in an awkward position.

 Huh

Not sure what you meant by that. 

What *I* meant was, oh no, here comes the sniping...again.  Seems like in almost any "discussion" here, someone feels obligated to make a snide remark or attack one side or the other, apparently forgetting about that thing we call "charity".  But, if I have somehow grossly misunderstood you, Mickey, please forgive me.

JM
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« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2011, 05:18:56 PM »

The Catechism of the Catholic Church is the normative catechism for the papal Church, so one cannot have a local catechism that teaches against anything that is located in the CCC.  The CCC and the liturgical cycle of the particular Churches should be the reference point for all local Catholic Catechisms.  There is no requirement for an itemized or systematic laundry list of doctrinal points in any Catechism.  Not even the normative CCC, nor Scripture for that matter, contains all that can be said or should be said about the Trinity and Incarnation.  However the Church is one, and though not monolithic, there is the often unspoken understanding that one may not emphasize a teaching, or one may emphasize a teaching in local terms,  but that does not mean that a teaching from the universal catechism [CCC] can be emphatically denied or regarded as heterodox or heretical.

In summary:  Total submission to Rome.  Cheesy
Come back home Mickey

Mickey IS home.

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« Reply #16 on: July 26, 2011, 05:28:38 PM »

Not sure what you meant by that. 

It was meant to be a joke, to sort of embody what some Orthodox believe about Rome being in bed with the devil, and how Orthodox "catch them" in the act, so to speak.
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« Reply #17 on: July 26, 2011, 05:29:33 PM »

The Catechism of the Catholic Church is the normative catechism for the papal Church, so one cannot have a local catechism that teaches against anything that is located in the CCC.  The CCC and the liturgical cycle of the particular Churches should be the reference point for all local Catholic Catechisms.  There is no requirement for an itemized or systematic laundry list of doctrinal points in any Catechism.  Not even the normative CCC, nor Scripture for that matter, contains all that can be said or should be said about the Trinity and Incarnation.  However the Church is one, and though not monolithic, there is the often unspoken understanding that one may not emphasize a teaching, or one may emphasize a teaching in local terms,  but that does not mean that a teaching from the universal catechism [CCC] can be emphatically denied or regarded as heterodox or heretical.

In summary:  Total submission to Rome.  Cheesy
Come back home Mickey

Mickey IS home.



As are *all* of us Catholic or Orthodox Christians.  (But that's not what this thread is about, is it?)
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« Reply #18 on: July 26, 2011, 05:32:10 PM »


I would disagree.

If you are stating that "home" is the True Church....then not everyone on this board is "home".

...just saying.
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« Reply #19 on: July 26, 2011, 05:42:56 PM »


I would disagree.

If you are stating that "home" is the True Church....then not everyone on this board is "home".

...just saying.

The Catholics here are in the proper Forum to be sayin' you are wrong to say that we too are not in the one holy catholic and apostolic Church;  That the schism is anything more than material:  or that there is formal heresy separating us.

...just sayin'

And also just sayin' that I think the Ukranian Catechism will be every bit as good and wholesome and conducive to exhorting to holiness among eastern Catholics, as any text that Orthodox Catholics recognize as a catechism.
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« Reply #20 on: July 26, 2011, 05:45:03 PM »

Das Heim ist wo das Herz ist.
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« Reply #21 on: July 26, 2011, 05:46:29 PM »

Quote
... but that does not mean that a teaching from the universal catechism [CCC] can be emphatically denied or regarded as heterodox or heretical.

 Huh

P.S. I guess I'm making myself looking pretty behind-the-times here, since I'm asking about something that has already been quoted 5 times on this thread.
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« Reply #22 on: July 26, 2011, 05:50:25 PM »

Quote
... but that does not mean that a teaching from the universal catechism [CCC] can be emphatically denied or regarded as heterodox or heretical.

 Huh

P.S. I guess I'm making myself looking pretty behind-the-times here, since I'm asking about something that has already been quoted 5 times on this thread.


 Huh

You ain't askin'.

You is pointin'

When you ask I'll consider answering.
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« Reply #23 on: July 26, 2011, 05:54:46 PM »

The Catholics here are in the proper Forum to be sayin' you are wrong to say that we too are not in the one holy catholic and apostolic Church;  That the schism is anything more than material:  or that there is formal heresy separating us.

...just sayin'

Blessed are you, elijahmaria, that you can make that claim here.

There is, on another forum, the world's largest Roman Catholic forum, a specific directive from the Uber Moderator, that if any Orthodox makes such a claim or uses such language, they are BANNED!
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« Reply #24 on: July 26, 2011, 05:58:32 PM »


I would disagree.

If you are stating that "home" is the True Church....then not everyone on this board is "home".

...just saying.

The Catholics here are in the proper Forum to be sayin' you are wrong to say that we too are not in the one holy catholic and apostolic Church;  That the schism is anything more than material:  or that there is formal heresy separating us.

...just sayin'

And also just sayin' that I think the Ukranian Catechism will be every bit as good and wholesome and conducive to exhorting to holiness among eastern Catholics, as any text that Orthodox Catholics recognize as a catechism.

Nobody's stopping you from voicing your opinion....

However, I am allowed to voice my opinion, as well....or are you stopping me?

Smiley
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« Reply #25 on: July 26, 2011, 05:59:59 PM »


I would disagree.

If you are stating that "home" is the True Church....then not everyone on this board is "home".

...just saying.

The Catholics here are in the proper Forum to be sayin' you are wrong to say that we too are not in the one holy catholic and apostolic Church;  That the schism is anything more than material:  or that there is formal heresy separating us.

...just sayin'

And also just sayin' that I think the Ukranian Catechism will be every bit as good and wholesome and conducive to exhorting to holiness among eastern Catholics, as any text that Orthodox Catholics recognize as a catechism.

Nobody's stopping you from voicing your opinion....

However, I am allowed to voice my opinion, as well....or are you stopping me?

Smiley


I figured since we were all just sayin'.... Wink
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« Reply #26 on: July 26, 2011, 06:01:36 PM »

The Catholics here are in the proper Forum to be sayin' you are wrong to say that we too are not in the one holy catholic and apostolic Church;  That the schism is anything more than material:  or that there is formal heresy separating us.

...just sayin'

Blessed are you, elijahmaria, that you can make that claim here.

There is, on another forum, the world's largest Roman Catholic forum, a specific directive from the Uber Moderator, that if any Orthodox makes such a claim or uses such language, they are BANNED!

He has that right as the owner of the venue, Father.  

He is not the Catholic Church, nor is he really anyone particularly important among Catholics.

So it is a shame but it is hardly worth obsessing over, unless you've got nothing else to think about.

PS:  In so far as you have been ordered off that venue, in fact, as well as to my way of thinking...that forum is the loser.  Not you and not anyone else who was removed.
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« Reply #27 on: July 26, 2011, 06:32:22 PM »


I would disagree.

If you are stating that "home" is the True Church....then not everyone on this board is "home".

...just saying.

The Catholics here are in the proper Forum to be sayin' you are wrong to say that we too are not in the one holy catholic and apostolic Church;  That the schism is anything more than material:  or that there is formal heresy separating us.

...just sayin'

And also just sayin' that I think the Ukranian Catechism will be every bit as good and wholesome and conducive to exhorting to holiness among eastern Catholics, as any text that Orthodox Catholics recognize as a catechism.

Nobody's stopping you from voicing your opinion....

However, I am allowed to voice my opinion, as well....or are you stopping me?

Smiley

Actually, I'm very interested in what the Ukrainian Orthodox have to say about this work, as they are best equipped to evalulate it for Orthodoxy, and the extend to which dogma has been conformed to the scholasticism and Ultramontanism of the Vatican.
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« Reply #28 on: July 26, 2011, 06:45:04 PM »


Iiiiiiiisa!

Now you're gonna make me read it!

I'll get back to you with my thoughts once I have a chance to peruse it properly.

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« Reply #29 on: July 26, 2011, 06:54:17 PM »

The Catholics here are in the proper Forum to be sayin' you are wrong to say that we too are not in the one holy catholic and apostolic Church;  That the schism is anything more than material:  or that there is formal heresy separating us.

...just sayin'

Blessed are you, elijahmaria, that you can make that claim here.

There is, on another forum, the world's largest Roman Catholic forum, a specific directive from the Uber Moderator, that if any Orthodox makes such a claim or uses such language, they are BANNED!

He has that right as the owner of the venue, Father. 


Pshaw!   God forbid that we should exercise our "rights" so destructively and capriciously.  What's next?  Forbidding Anglicans to call themselves the "Church of England" since the Church of England is of course the Roman Catholic Church.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Keating
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« Reply #30 on: July 26, 2011, 07:29:25 PM »

Father Ambrose, if you're unhappy with your dialogue with neo-conservative Catholics, perhaps you should give a thought to us traditional Catholics.
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« Reply #31 on: July 26, 2011, 07:30:29 PM »

Father Ambrose, if you're unhappy with your dialogue with neo-conservative Catholics, perhaps you should give a thought to us traditional Catholics.
What's the difference between neo-conservative Catholics and traditional Catholics?
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« Reply #32 on: July 26, 2011, 07:37:14 PM »

The only traditional Catholics I know are the SSPXers who told my wife that she was going to burn in hell for leaving them and converting to Orthodoxy. Kind of a dialogue-stopper, that one.  Wink
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« Reply #33 on: July 26, 2011, 07:45:52 PM »

The only traditional Catholics I know are the SSPXers who told my wife that she was going to burn in hell for leaving them and converting to Orthodoxy. Kind of a dialogue-stopper, that one.  Wink
I'm sure they were just joshin' around. The SSPX are known for their jocular antics.
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« Reply #34 on: July 26, 2011, 07:50:17 PM »

The only traditional Catholics I know are the SSPXers who told my wife that she was going to burn in hell for leaving them and converting to Orthodoxy. Kind of a dialogue-stopper, that one.  Wink
I'm sure they were just joshin' around. The SSPX are known for their jocular antics.
Yes.

give me that ol' time religion.
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« Reply #35 on: July 26, 2011, 08:02:16 PM »

Father Ambrose, if you're unhappy with your dialogue with neo-conservative Catholics, perhaps you should give a thought to us traditional Catholics.
What's the difference between neo-conservative Catholics and traditional Catholics?

To my mind, the different is enormous.

As I told someone else recently ...

Quote
Peter W. Miller calls them "'conservative' Catholics". Here's his definition:

Quote
As the heretics of yesterday have become the liberals of today, the liberals of yesterday now lay claim to the title "conservative". Consequentially the conservatives came to be known as "traditionalists". Unfortunately, these terms are no longer completely accurate descriptions. So for the purposes of this essay, I will use the following general definitions to delineate the differences between traditionalists and "conservatives":

TRADITIONALIST: One who challenges the novel practices and teachings of Catholics (including bishops and priests) which appear to contradict the prior teaching of the Church. A traditionalist questions the prudence of new pastoral approaches and holds the belief that those things generally deemed objectively good or evil several decades ago remain so today.

"CONSERVATIVE": One who upholds and defends the current policies and positions of the Church hierarchy regardless of their novelty. A "conservative" extends the definitions of "infallibility" and "Magisterium" to include most every action and speech of the Pope and those Cardinals around him, but may exclude those Cardinals and bishops outside of Rome. A "conservative's" opinion is also subject to change depending on the current actions of the Holy Father. "Conservative" will be used it in quotation marks to avoid the misleading connotation of being diametrically opposed to liberalism or on the far right of the spectrum. Also since there only exists a desire to "conserve" only those traditions and practices of the past deemed appropriate at any given time by the present Pope. The quotation marks will also ensure a proper dissociation between the actual conservatives active prior to and during Vatican II (Ottaviani, Lefebvre, Fenton, etc.).

Both traditionalists and "conservatives" acknowledge the existence of problems in the Church but disagree as to their nature, extent, causes and remedies.

"Conservatives" see it as an "illness" — an incidental problem like a gangrene limb. In the English-speaking world, this problem may be limited to the actions of certain American bishops. "Conservatives" see the novelties of Vatican II and the New Mass as natural and acceptable developments in the course of the Church, but take issue with those seeking to expand upon those novelties, or take them to their next logical progression. They see the crisis in the Church as a societal issue that would have happened regardless of what actions the Church leadership had taken. Their solution is to return to Vatican II and embark on another attempt to "renew" the Church.

Traditionalists see the illness as a widespread cancer affecting the whole body put most particularly and critically the heart. They question the prudence of making significant changes in the Mass and the Church's pastoral orientation. They attribute the destruction to liberal and Modernist ideals given a certain degree of acceptability once the Church decided to stop fighting them with extreme vigilance. They see the Church leadership as sharing in the responsibility for the crisis due to its governance (or lack thereof). Their solution is not another attempt at a reform that may be "more in line with the 'spirit' of Vatican II" (shudder), but a return to the practices and beliefs of the Church that sustained it for hundreds of years prior.

- A Brief Defense of Traditionalism
Peter W. Miller
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« Reply #36 on: July 27, 2011, 08:48:51 AM »

But, if I have somehow grossly misunderstood you, Mickey, please forgive me.

God forgives and so do I.  Let me expand.  

When I was Byzantine Catholic, I used to hear explanations from some clergy and monastics about certain doctrines.  It was explained to me as: "an Orthodox understanding"--yet others in the Byzantine Catholic Church would say, "no, we must have the exact understanding of these doctrines as Rome has supplied."  

There was an identity crisis.  

And so my question has always been....can the Eastern Catholic Churches have a contrary understanding of certain doctrines.....or must they be in complete submission to the teachings of Rome?
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« Reply #37 on: July 27, 2011, 08:57:39 AM »

Mickey IS home.

And it is a very loving home!  Smiley
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« Reply #38 on: July 27, 2011, 09:51:08 AM »

Father Ambrose, if you're unhappy with your dialogue with neo-conservative Catholics, perhaps you should give a thought to us traditional Catholics.
What's the difference between neo-conservative Catholics and traditional Catholics?

To my mind, the different is enormous.

As I told someone else recently ...

Quote
Peter W. Miller calls them "'conservative' Catholics". Here's his definition:

Quote
As the heretics of yesterday have become the liberals of today, the liberals of yesterday now lay claim to the title "conservative". Consequentially the conservatives came to be known as "traditionalists". Unfortunately, these terms are no longer completely accurate descriptions. So for the purposes of this essay, I will use the following general definitions to delineate the differences between traditionalists and "conservatives":

TRADITIONALIST: One who challenges the novel practices and teachings of Catholics (including bishops and priests) which appear to contradict the prior teaching of the Church. A traditionalist questions the prudence of new pastoral approaches and holds the belief that those things generally deemed objectively good or evil several decades ago remain so today.

"CONSERVATIVE": One who upholds and defends the current policies and positions of the Church hierarchy regardless of their novelty. A "conservative" extends the definitions of "infallibility" and "Magisterium" to include most every action and speech of the Pope and those Cardinals around him, but may exclude those Cardinals and bishops outside of Rome. A "conservative's" opinion is also subject to change depending on the current actions of the Holy Father. "Conservative" will be used it in quotation marks to avoid the misleading connotation of being diametrically opposed to liberalism or on the far right of the spectrum. Also since there only exists a desire to "conserve" only those traditions and practices of the past deemed appropriate at any given time by the present Pope. The quotation marks will also ensure a proper dissociation between the actual conservatives active prior to and during Vatican II (Ottaviani, Lefebvre, Fenton, etc.).

Both traditionalists and "conservatives" acknowledge the existence of problems in the Church but disagree as to their nature, extent, causes and remedies.

"Conservatives" see it as an "illness" — an incidental problem like a gangrene limb. In the English-speaking world, this problem may be limited to the actions of certain American bishops. "Conservatives" see the novelties of Vatican II and the New Mass as natural and acceptable developments in the course of the Church, but take issue with those seeking to expand upon those novelties, or take them to their next logical progression. They see the crisis in the Church as a societal issue that would have happened regardless of what actions the Church leadership had taken. Their solution is to return to Vatican II and embark on another attempt to "renew" the Church.

Traditionalists see the illness as a widespread cancer affecting the whole body put most particularly and critically the heart. They question the prudence of making significant changes in the Mass and the Church's pastoral orientation. They attribute the destruction to liberal and Modernist ideals given a certain degree of acceptability once the Church decided to stop fighting them with extreme vigilance. They see the Church leadership as sharing in the responsibility for the crisis due to its governance (or lack thereof). Their solution is not another attempt at a reform that may be "more in line with the 'spirit' of Vatican II" (shudder), but a return to the practices and beliefs of the Church that sustained it for hundreds of years prior.

- A Brief Defense of Traditionalism
Peter W. Miller
Traditionalists sound like borderline, if not outright, heretics.
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« Reply #39 on: July 27, 2011, 10:11:41 AM »

Hi Mickey. The key is lip service ... at least according to neo-conservative Catholics like Dave Armstrong:

Quote
Can you envision any way that communion could be achieved between Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy that does not entail the Eastern Orthodox being in submission to Rome?

Sure: an arrangement which basically allows the Orthodox to give at least hypothetical “lip service”, so to speak, to papal primacy and supremacy and infallibility (?), while in practice it basically governs itself with little interference — much like Pope John Paul II has already proposed.

That's from his blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism.

The problem is that some crazy Orthodox came up with the idea we need to be "united in faith" before we can be in full communion. (I've even heard that some traditional Catholics think that too.  Shocked)
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« Reply #40 on: July 27, 2011, 10:55:16 AM »

Hi Mickey. The key is lip service ... at least according to neo-conservative Catholics like Dave Armstrong:

Quote
Can you envision any way that communion could be achieved between Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy that does not entail the Eastern Orthodox being in submission to Rome?

Sure: an arrangement which basically allows the Orthodox to give at least hypothetical “lip service”, so to speak, to papal primacy and supremacy and infallibility (?), while in practice it basically governs itself with little interference — much like Pope John Paul II has already proposed.

That's from his blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism.

The problem is that some crazy Orthodox came up with the idea we need to be "united in faith" before we can be in full communion. (I've even heard that some traditional Catholics think that too.  Shocked)

Am I misreading your last post? Why is this a 'crazy' idea to you?

How could there be a true and complete liturgical unity without an understanding of 'unity in faith?' Most here know that I am a pro-dialogue Orthodox and that I view my Roman Catholic brothers and sisters with more charity than do many here online, but I could never envision any healing of the Great Schism without there first being a 'unity of faith.' I don't know any serious Orthodox participants in the authorized Ecumenical dialogues who believe anything to the contrary.

Indeed the conclusion to the paper published by the North American Consultation states this simple truth clearly and consisely:

Conscience holds us back from celebrating our unity as complete in sacramental terms, until it is complete in faith, Church structure, and common action; but conscience also calls us to move beyond complacency in our divisions, in the power of the Spirit and in a longing for the fullness of Christ’s life-giving presence in our midst.  The challenge and the invitation to Orthodox and Catholic Christians, who understand themselves to be members of Christ’s Body precisely by sharing in the Eucharistic gifts and participating in the transforming life of the Holy Spirit, is now to see Christ authentically present in each other, and to find in those structures of leadership that have shaped our communities through the centuries a force to move us beyond disunity, mistrust, and competition, and towards that oneness in his Body, that obedience to his Spirit, that will reveal us as his disciples before the world. http://www.scoba.us/articles/towards-a-unified-church.html

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« Reply #41 on: July 27, 2011, 10:56:27 AM »

The problem is that some crazy Orthodox came up with the idea we need to be "united in faith" before we can be in full communion. (I've even heard that some traditional Catholics think that too.  Shocked)

 laugh
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« Reply #42 on: July 27, 2011, 10:58:04 AM »

Am I misreading your last post? Why is this a 'crazy' idea to you?

I think he was being sarcastic.  Cool
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« Reply #43 on: July 27, 2011, 11:11:32 AM »

Hi Mickey. The key is lip service ... at least according to neo-conservative Catholics like Dave Armstrong:

Quote
Can you envision any way that communion could be achieved between Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy that does not entail the Eastern Orthodox being in submission to Rome?

Sure: an arrangement which basically allows the Orthodox to give at least hypothetical “lip service”, so to speak, to papal primacy and supremacy and infallibility (?), while in practice it basically governs itself with little interference — much like Pope John Paul II has already proposed.

That's from his blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism.

The problem is that some crazy Orthodox came up with the idea we need to be "united in faith" before we can be in full communion. (I've even heard that some traditional Catholics think that too.  Shocked)

Am I misreading your last post? Why is this a 'crazy' idea to you?

What, you mean you don't want to get aboard the lip-service train?
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« Reply #44 on: July 27, 2011, 11:22:27 AM »

Hi Mickey. The key is lip service ... at least according to neo-conservative Catholics like Dave Armstrong:

Quote
Can you envision any way that communion could be achieved between Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy that does not entail the Eastern Orthodox being in submission to Rome?

Sure: an arrangement which basically allows the Orthodox to give at least hypothetical “lip service”, so to speak, to papal primacy and supremacy and infallibility (?), while in practice it basically governs itself with little interference — much like Pope John Paul II has already proposed.

That's from his blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism.

The problem is that some crazy Orthodox came up with the idea we need to be "united in faith" before we can be in full communion. (I've even heard that some traditional Catholics think that too.  Shocked)

Am I misreading your last post? Why is this a 'crazy' idea to you?

What, you mean you don't want to get aboard the lip-service train?

That train doesn't stop at my station.  Wink  The problem down the historical road will not be the ability of teachers of the Faith(s) to reach a form of common understanding, but rather the rise in bloggers and boards like this which are full of experts like each of us who will have to put aside our own baggage and misconceptions. That's why I don't expect to see unity in my lifetime nor in the next century. But who knows?

And we Orthodox will NEVER accept a false unity which pays 'lip service' as Armstrong speaks of. Didn't work at Florence and it didn't prove to be true following Brest or Uzhorod either..... Anyway, he isn't on the Consultation and nor are we! Smiley
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