OrthodoxChristianity.net
September 20, 2014, 08:13:08 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Poll
Question: How Do you View the EO/OO Situation?
I am OO and I believe the EOs are Orthodox
I am EO and I believe the OO are Orthodox
I am OO and I don't believe the EOs are Orthodox
I am EO and I don't view OOs as Orthodox
I am OO and I'm not sure how to vote
I am EO and I'm not sure how to vote

Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Current OO Views on EOs and Vice-Versa  (Read 2389 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Severian
God save Egypt, Syria, Lebanon & Iraq
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic/Egyptian Orthodoxy
Posts: 5,039


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Christians

Partisangirl
WWW
« on: July 14, 2011, 01:04:05 PM »

Now, maybe I am just asking for trouble and I know this has been discussed a lot before on this site. But, most threads about the whole EO-OO situation are years old and, IMHO, are outdated. So how do current EOs and OOs view each other? Please conduct yourself in a Christian manner. I'm curious, not looking for polemical fire-fights. I voted for the first option, I do view EOs as Orthodox.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2011, 01:07:57 PM by Severian » Logged

"What on Earth was I smoking?"

-My personal reaction when re-reading half of the c**p I've written on this forum.
zekarja
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 745


O Holy Prophet Zechariah, intercede to God for us!


« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2011, 01:24:51 PM »

I believe that the OO's are schismatic, however, there are no choices for that. No offense to the OO's here. Smiley
Logged

Severian
God save Egypt, Syria, Lebanon & Iraq
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic/Egyptian Orthodoxy
Posts: 5,039


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Christians

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2011, 01:26:12 PM »

I believe that the OO's are schismatic, however, there are no choices for that. No offense to the OO's here. Smiley
Maybe I should have put more options. Sorry. Thanks for responding anyway.
Logged

"What on Earth was I smoking?"

-My personal reaction when re-reading half of the c**p I've written on this forum.
Father Peter
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: British Orthodox Church within the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate
Posts: 2,645



WWW
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2011, 02:18:07 PM »

I'd prefer 'I am OO and I consider the EO Orthodox enough'
Logged

Lord have mercy upon me a sinner
http://www.orthodoxmedway.org

My blog - http://anorthodoxpriest.blogspot.co.uk

The poster formerly known as peterfarrington
Severian
God save Egypt, Syria, Lebanon & Iraq
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic/Egyptian Orthodoxy
Posts: 5,039


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Christians

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2011, 02:28:00 PM »

I'd prefer 'I am OO and I consider the EO Orthodox enough'
Father, could you please explain what you mean by that?

I voted for the first option. I recognize them as fully Orthodox. They have maintained the Orthodox faith despite their schism from us, and thus I recognize their mysteries and Apostolic succession as valid. One could argue, from an OO POV, that they aren't fully Orthodox because they recognize councils beyond 1-3 as ecumenical and because they condemn Saints Dioscorus and Severus. But, councils 4-7 are completely dogmatically Orthodox. What's more important, the fact that these councils are "ecumenical", or the fact that these councils maintained the faith? Furthermore Pope St Cyril (along with his uncle Pope St Theophilus) condemned St John Chrysostom at the synod of the oak, yet we wouldn't say any of these three men are unorthodox as a result of that, and all three of these men are considered Saints in our Orthodox Church. That's my reasoning, that's why I think they are completely Orthodox.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2011, 02:30:47 PM by Severian » Logged

"What on Earth was I smoking?"

-My personal reaction when re-reading half of the c**p I've written on this forum.
Father Peter
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: British Orthodox Church within the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate
Posts: 2,645



WWW
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2011, 02:34:48 PM »

I don't see how you can say that Chalcedon is dogmatically Orthodox, or Constantinople II.

It is possible to consider them in an Orthodox manner, but that isn't the same as considering them in themselves to be Orthodox.

My personal opinion is that EOxy has not preserved the Faith in the same way, but that it has done so in a manner that is Orthodox enough for a reconciliation. That doesn't mean I agree with everything in EOxy. St Cyril was willing to be reconciled with John of Antioch but he made it clear that he considered the Eastern position to be defective, but just about Orthodox enough.

Logged

Lord have mercy upon me a sinner
http://www.orthodoxmedway.org

My blog - http://anorthodoxpriest.blogspot.co.uk

The poster formerly known as peterfarrington
Severian
God save Egypt, Syria, Lebanon & Iraq
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic/Egyptian Orthodoxy
Posts: 5,039


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Christians

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2011, 02:43:11 PM »

I don't see how you can say that Chalcedon is dogmatically Orthodox, or Constantinople II.

It is possible to consider them in an Orthodox manner, but that isn't the same as considering them in themselves to be Orthodox.

My personal opinion is that EOxy has not preserved the Faith in the same way, but that it has done so in a manner that is Orthodox enough for a reconciliation. That doesn't mean I agree with everything in EOxy. St Cyril was willing to be reconciled with John of Antioch but he made it clear that he considered the Eastern position to be defective, but just about Orthodox enough.


Regarding Chalcedon and Constantinople II et al, that's basically what I meant. The way the EOs interpret them is perfectly fine, but we cannot truly agree to these councils in their immediate historical context. And yes, I prefer the way we OOs express certain aspects of the faith. For example, I prefer pre-Chalcedonian language and they don't, but that's something I am willing to swallow for reunion's sake. They venerate Leo of Rome, and I can't even imagine doing so, but that is something I'm willing to swallow for reunion's sake. They consider councils beyond Nicea I, Constantinople I, Ephesus I as ecumenical, I don't, but that's something I am willing to swallow for reunion's sake because their interpretations of these councils are Orthodox.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2011, 02:44:51 PM by Severian » Logged

"What on Earth was I smoking?"

-My personal reaction when re-reading half of the c**p I've written on this forum.
zekarja
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 745


O Holy Prophet Zechariah, intercede to God for us!


« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2011, 03:21:52 PM »

St Cyril was willing to be reconciled with John of Antioch but he made it clear that he considered the Eastern position to be defective, but just about Orthodox enough.

I have an honest question... Where did St Cyril make "it clear that he considered the Eastern position to be defective, but just about Orthodox enough."? I read his letter but I didn't see or must have missed that.  Huh

[EDIT] fixed bad typo
« Last Edit: July 14, 2011, 03:26:37 PM by zekarja » Logged

Severian
God save Egypt, Syria, Lebanon & Iraq
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic/Egyptian Orthodoxy
Posts: 5,039


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Christians

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2011, 03:27:08 PM »

St Cyril was willing to be reconciled with John of Antioch but he made it clear that he considered the Eastern position to be defective, but just about Orthodox enough.

I have an honest question... Where did St Cyril make "it clear that he considered the Eastern position to be defective, but just about Orthodox enough."? I read his letter but I didn't see of must have missed that.  Huh
I assume that's because John of Antioch and friends didn't completely submit to Ephesus I as ecumenical. John merely upheld its dogamtic content. He didn't accept it the way you and I do (I.e. as an 'ecumenical' council). St Cyril also allowed the Easterners to commemorate Diodore and Theodore in the diptychs. I am sure he disliked that but he probably had the mindset of" "They may commemorate Theodore, but without subscribing to his errors, and they don't accept Ephesus completely as ecumenical, but they uphold the council's faith, they are Orthodox enough for me to reunite with them".
« Last Edit: July 14, 2011, 03:30:23 PM by Severian » Logged

"What on Earth was I smoking?"

-My personal reaction when re-reading half of the c**p I've written on this forum.
zekarja
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 745


O Holy Prophet Zechariah, intercede to God for us!


« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2011, 03:29:46 PM »

St Cyril was willing to be reconciled with John of Antioch but he made it clear that he considered the Eastern position to be defective, but just about Orthodox enough.

I have an honest question... Where did St Cyril make "it clear that he considered the Eastern position to be defective, but just about Orthodox enough."? I read his letter but I didn't see of must have missed that.  Huh
I assume that's because John of Antioch and friends didn't completely submit to Ephesus I as ecumenical. John merely upheld its dogamtic content. He didn't accept it the way you and I do (I.e. as an 'ecumenical' council). He also allowed the Easterners to commemorate Diodore and Theodore in the diptychs.

I see. Thank you. Smiley
Logged

Aidan
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 126



« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2011, 03:33:43 PM »

I think if you are OO and you consider the EO Orthodox then you should join them or vice versa.

I was asking a Coptic priest the(theoretical) question what I would have to do to join the Coptic church. By way of an answer he showed the Pauline quote from the Agpeya One Lord,one faith, one baptismSo, even though I have been totally immersed in baptism when joining the EO church I would need it done again as a safeguard.

There can only be one visible Church. If bodies have been out of communion with each other for hundreds of years then one isn't the church. Commissions and tinkering about with who said what doesn't alter that.

If the EO church were to take some 'slack' view about reunion and it took place there would be a mass schism so nothing would be gained.

Having said that I know a bishop of the Russian Church abroad who is prepared to allow Ethiopians and Copts to communicate by recitation of the creed and promising not to return to their former church. Anything else seems to me be denying the One, Holy and Catholic church in favour of economia
Logged
Severian
God save Egypt, Syria, Lebanon & Iraq
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic/Egyptian Orthodoxy
Posts: 5,039


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Christians

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2011, 03:43:25 PM »

Just because I believe you guys maintain the Orthodox faith doesn't mean I don't think you guys aren't schismatic or in some state of error. I'm sure you believe that the Greek old calendarists maintain the Orthodox faith, yet you consider them in schism/in error. I hope what I'm typing isn't perceived as polemical, I'm sorry if it is.

Why am I getting the feeling that this thread is going to get locked very soon?
Logged

"What on Earth was I smoking?"

-My personal reaction when re-reading half of the c**p I've written on this forum.
copticmind
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Alexandria
Posts: 108


GeorgeFahim
WWW
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2011, 03:44:53 PM »

If this vote was set a little bit earlier, I would have voted that the EO are Orthodox..
I was willing to say that the differences are mere semantics and both traditions maintained the Orthodox faith, but recently I felt that we as OO just seek acceptance and reconciliation even if we are going to compromise our beliefs.
But honestly, why do we have to do that for the sake of unity, while all what we get is being patronized and called heretics or schismatics?!
I stand firm in the belief of the correctness of the Christological doctrines delivered to us by our holy saints who are cursed as heretics by the EO, and unless our doctrine is accepted by them as fully Orthodox, I will not be able to accept them as fully Orthodox.
Logged

Ⲡⲁϭⲟⲓⲥ Ⲓⲏⲥ Ⲡⲭⲥ ⳿ⲡϣⲏⲣⲓ ⳿ⲙ⳿Ⲫⲛⲟⲩϯ ⲛⲁⲓ ⲛⲏⲓ ⲁⲛⲟⲕ ⲡⲓⲣⲉϥⲉⲣⲛⲟⲃⲓ
يا ربي يسوع المسيح ابن الله ارحمني أنا الخاطئ
Severian
God save Egypt, Syria, Lebanon & Iraq
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic/Egyptian Orthodoxy
Posts: 5,039


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Christians

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2011, 03:45:49 PM »

I wonder who voted for the third option. Probably Deusveritasest.  Wink  laugh

EDIT: Actually, it could be copticmind
« Last Edit: July 14, 2011, 03:46:28 PM by Severian » Logged

"What on Earth was I smoking?"

-My personal reaction when re-reading half of the c**p I've written on this forum.
copticmind
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Alexandria
Posts: 108


GeorgeFahim
WWW
« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2011, 03:50:10 PM »

I wonder who voted for the third option. Probably Deusveritasest.  Wink  laugh

EDIT: Actually, it could be copticmind

So far, two voted for this option, me one of them..
Logged

Ⲡⲁϭⲟⲓⲥ Ⲓⲏⲥ Ⲡⲭⲥ ⳿ⲡϣⲏⲣⲓ ⳿ⲙ⳿Ⲫⲛⲟⲩϯ ⲛⲁⲓ ⲛⲏⲓ ⲁⲛⲟⲕ ⲡⲓⲣⲉϥⲉⲣⲛⲟⲃⲓ
يا ربي يسوع المسيح ابن الله ارحمني أنا الخاطئ
Severian
God save Egypt, Syria, Lebanon & Iraq
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic/Egyptian Orthodoxy
Posts: 5,039


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Christians

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2011, 03:51:40 PM »

If this vote was set a little bit earlier, I would have voted that the EO are Orthodox..
I was willing to say that the differences are mere semantics and both traditions maintained the Orthodox faith, but recently I felt that we as OO just seek acceptance and reconciliation even if we are going to compromise our beliefs.
But honestly, why do we have to do that for the sake of unity, while all what we get is being patronized and called heretics or schismatics?!
I stand firm in the belief of the correctness of the Christological doctrines delivered to us by our holy saints who are cursed as heretics by the EO, and unless our doctrine is accepted by them as fully Orthodox, I will not be able to accept them as fully Orthodox.
I agree. Especially the part about our Saints. If the Byzantines truly believes the Church and her Saints are monophysitic then they should want nothing to do with the Orthodox Church. I hope I'm not being polemical, but, until the anathemas of the St Dioscorus the confessor and the Blessed Severus are lifted, there will be no unity. I affirm that EOs are Orthodox, but that does not mean they are not in error for anathematizing Sts Dioscorus and Severus.
Logged

"What on Earth was I smoking?"

-My personal reaction when re-reading half of the c**p I've written on this forum.
bishoy
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic Orthodox
Posts: 46


« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2011, 03:57:40 PM »


There can only be one visible Church. If bodies have been out of communion with each other for hundreds of years then one isn't the church. Commissions and tinkering about with who said what doesn't alter that.


I disagree. That bodies have been out of communion with each other does not imply that one is the Church and one is not; rather, I see this as a testament to the fallen state of man. The way you pose the situation makes any kind of reconciliation impossible, as one body would have to submit to the other, admitting they were completely wrong and were not "the Church". I do not think this is so. I think the Orthodoxy between the OO and EO is so close together, with many differences arising from mere technicalities, that a reconciliation would be a synergistic one, with both working together to iron out any differences, without making doctrinal concessions, and ultimately uniting.

But besides those issues of reconciliation, can you truly say that when God has worked such miracles and given us such wonderful saints, in both the EO and OO? I was recently reading a thread in which an EO asked if the OO had any incorrupt saints, and the answer was a resounding YES! God works through both the EO and OO, and deals with us merciful, always.
If this vote was set a little bit earlier, I would have voted that the EO are Orthodox..
I was willing to say that the differences are mere semantics and both traditions maintained the Orthodox faith, but recently I felt that we as OO just seek acceptance and reconciliation even if we are going to compromise our beliefs.
But honestly, why do we have to do that for the sake of unity, while all what we get is being patronized and called heretics or schismatics?!
I stand firm in the belief of the correctness of the Christological doctrines delivered to us by our holy saints who are cursed as heretics by the EO, and unless our doctrine is accepted by them as fully Orthodox, I will not be able to accept them as fully Orthodox.

Copticmind, I understand what you are saying, and have felt your same emotions. Yet, I do not think that is a reason to not accept the EO as Orthodox, or at least, Orthodox in some sense. If we draw that line of schism and shield ourselves behind it, we create more conflict, and the line grows deeper. The only to convince the EO who curse our saints as heretics is to tell them, "You may not accept us, but we can accept YOU." I can assure you, when both OO and EO lay down their pride for a moment and take a look, they will see that neither of them can claim exclusivity to the saints, indeed, can not lay exclusivity to God himself, and that Orthodoxy is present in both the OO and the EO. Let me make it clear, I do agree with you that certain EO are in error for labeling our saints heretics and calling our Church monophysitic, as Severian has pointed out, but we shouldn't wholly reject them on that basis.
Logged
Severian
God save Egypt, Syria, Lebanon & Iraq
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic/Egyptian Orthodoxy
Posts: 5,039


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Christians

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #17 on: July 14, 2011, 04:03:50 PM »

I have to agree. If you do your research you'll find that all throughout history, that even though we didn't always agree, we never treated each other the way we treated the Arians, Macedonians, and other heretics. I think it's possible for us to reconcile without anyone having to admit that they were schismatic. But, as I said, just because I believe them to be Orthodox, doesn't mean I don't believe there condemnation of Sts Severus and Dioscorus, amongst other things, is erroneous.
Logged

"What on Earth was I smoking?"

-My personal reaction when re-reading half of the c**p I've written on this forum.
copticmind
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Alexandria
Posts: 108


GeorgeFahim
WWW
« Reply #18 on: July 14, 2011, 04:08:36 PM »

If this vote was set a little bit earlier, I would have voted that the EO are Orthodox..
I was willing to say that the differences are mere semantics and both traditions maintained the Orthodox faith, but recently I felt that we as OO just seek acceptance and reconciliation even if we are going to compromise our beliefs.
But honestly, why do we have to do that for the sake of unity, while all what we get is being patronized and called heretics or schismatics?!
I stand firm in the belief of the correctness of the Christological doctrines delivered to us by our holy saints who are cursed as heretics by the EO, and unless our doctrine is accepted by them as fully Orthodox, I will not be able to accept them as fully Orthodox.
I agree. Especially the part about our Saints. If the Byzantines truly believes the Church and her Saints are monophysitic then they should want nothing to do with the Orthodox Church. I hope I'm not being polemical, but, until the anathemas of the St Dioscorus the confessor and the Blessed Severus are lifted, there will be no unity. I affirm that EOs are Orthodox, but that does not mean they are not in error for anathematizing Sts Dioscorus and Severus.

I remember listening to an interview with the EP, HAH stated that for the OOC to be considered Orthodox (in his opinion), she has to accept the seven councils, which entails the acceptance of the anathemas against St. Dioscorus and St. Severus!
This is the way EO hierarchs view the prospects of unity. The joint declarations are not enough for them, while they seem enough for our hierarchs!
Logged

Ⲡⲁϭⲟⲓⲥ Ⲓⲏⲥ Ⲡⲭⲥ ⳿ⲡϣⲏⲣⲓ ⳿ⲙ⳿Ⲫⲛⲟⲩϯ ⲛⲁⲓ ⲛⲏⲓ ⲁⲛⲟⲕ ⲡⲓⲣⲉϥⲉⲣⲛⲟⲃⲓ
يا ربي يسوع المسيح ابن الله ارحمني أنا الخاطئ
Severian
God save Egypt, Syria, Lebanon & Iraq
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic/Egyptian Orthodoxy
Posts: 5,039


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Christians

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #19 on: July 14, 2011, 04:18:07 PM »

Quote
I remember listening to an interview with the EP, HAH stated that for the OOC to be considered Orthodox (in his opinion), she has to accept the seven councils, which entails the acceptance of the anathemas against St. Dioscorus and St. Severus!
This is the way EO hierarchs view the prospects of unity. The joint declarations are not enough for them, while they seem enough for our hierarchs!
Then there can be no unity if that is truly the case. When alluding to a post made by a Chalcedonian, a Coptic Orthodox Christian named EkhristosAnesti said:
Quote
Saint(s) Severus' (& Dioscorus') Sainthood(s) (are unquestionable because they are) proclaimed not only by councils, but by Holy Fathers, hagiographies, and, perhaps most importantly, hymns of the Church.
I couldn't have said it better myself.

Rest assured, I don't think that mainstream EOxy expects us to condemn these two Saints. I have heard some EOs say that they will lift the anathemas of Sts. Disocorus and Severus in exchange for us lifting the anathemas of Leo, Flavian, et al. That sounds fair.

God bless,
Severian
« Last Edit: July 14, 2011, 04:18:56 PM by Severian » Logged

"What on Earth was I smoking?"

-My personal reaction when re-reading half of the c**p I've written on this forum.
bishoy
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic Orthodox
Posts: 46


« Reply #20 on: July 14, 2011, 04:22:11 PM »

If this vote was set a little bit earlier, I would have voted that the EO are Orthodox..
I was willing to say that the differences are mere semantics and both traditions maintained the Orthodox faith, but recently I felt that we as OO just seek acceptance and reconciliation even if we are going to compromise our beliefs.
But honestly, why do we have to do that for the sake of unity, while all what we get is being patronized and called heretics or schismatics?!
I stand firm in the belief of the correctness of the Christological doctrines delivered to us by our holy saints who are cursed as heretics by the EO, and unless our doctrine is accepted by them as fully Orthodox, I will not be able to accept them as fully Orthodox.
I agree. Especially the part about our Saints. If the Byzantines truly believes the Church and her Saints are monophysitic then they should want nothing to do with the Orthodox Church. I hope I'm not being polemical, but, until the anathemas of the St Dioscorus the confessor and the Blessed Severus are lifted, there will be no unity. I affirm that EOs are Orthodox, but that does not mean they are not in error for anathematizing Sts Dioscorus and Severus.

I remember listening to an interview with the EP, HAH stated that for the OOC to be considered Orthodox (in his opinion), she has to accept the seven councils, which entails the acceptance of the anathemas against St. Dioscorus and St. Severus!
This is the way EO hierarchs view the prospects of unity. The joint declarations are not enough for them, while they seem enough for our hierarchs!

I know, and it makes me sick to my stomach. There are times when I just want to get so angry and give up on the matter. But, we can't do that! We were ordered by Christ to be of "one mind," and we at least have to try to live up to that. If we approach this matter pridefully, further division will occur. Although I understand that we need to be confident and stand strong in what we believe, the blind attitude of "I'm right and you're wrong" is pride and stupidity, and nothing else.

I will give you an example of how a loving attitude can work towards reconciliation, from a personal standpoint. When I read threads with EO talking about this matter, I'm much more willing to work with and respect an EO who says, "I may disagree with the OO on some finer points, but I still respect them and recognize that they are Orthodox," than one who says, "The EO are the only Orthodox, the only body of Christ, and the OO need to accept everything of ours."

Notice: the first person did not make any concessions doctrinally, but merely expressing respect towards the other side would make you want to talk to them and work things out. Such is the attitude I think we need to adopt.
Logged
Severian
God save Egypt, Syria, Lebanon & Iraq
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic/Egyptian Orthodoxy
Posts: 5,039


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Christians

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #21 on: July 14, 2011, 04:32:41 PM »

I agree, there were times in the past where some EO used to act so arrogant that I was willing just to drop all efforts at reunion, but, that's not what Christ wants of us. I find that most EO "traditionalists" against the EO-OO union either are a group of people who aren't even in communion with the rest of EOxy (e.g. the Greek old calendarists), or are a bunch of people on the internet who cannot accept the fact that, in real life, the EOs are on the verge of unity with the OO.
Logged

"What on Earth was I smoking?"

-My personal reaction when re-reading half of the c**p I've written on this forum.
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #22 on: July 14, 2011, 04:46:01 PM »

I wonder who voted for the third option. Probably Deusveritasest.  Wink  laugh

I haven't voted yet.
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
copticmind
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Alexandria
Posts: 108


GeorgeFahim
WWW
« Reply #23 on: July 14, 2011, 04:47:03 PM »

I know, and it makes me sick to my stomach. There are times when I just want to get so angry and give up on the matter. But, we can't do that! We were ordered by Christ to be of "one mind," and we at least have to try to live up to that. If we approach this matter pridefully, further division will occur. Although I understand that we need to be confident and stand strong in what we believe, the blind attitude of "I'm right and you're wrong" is pride and stupidity, and nothing else.

I will give you an example of how a loving attitude can work towards reconciliation, from a personal standpoint. When I read threads with EO talking about this matter, I'm much more willing to work with and respect an EO who says, "I may disagree with the OO on some finer points, but I still respect them and recognize that they are Orthodox," than one who says, "The EO are the only Orthodox, the only body of Christ, and the OO need to accept everything of ours."

Notice: the first person did not make any concessions doctrinally, but merely expressing respect towards the other side would make you want to talk to them and work things out. Such is the attitude I think we need to adopt.

You are absolutely right, Bishoy. I have been dreaming of Church unity (specially EO/OO) all my life, I have been praying to see this unity in my lifetime. Each time the priest prays the supplications and mentions: "The unbelievers restore; let the schisms of the Church come to an end.", I pray kyrie eleison wholeheartedly. But It just makes me sad to feel patronized. I prefer a unity based on mutual respect and brotherly love. The OOC shouldn't be considered the prodigal son that finally returned to the bosom of his father. There may be some pride in my stance; I pray to the Lord to have mercy on me, who am I to say what should or shouldn't be done...
Logged

Ⲡⲁϭⲟⲓⲥ Ⲓⲏⲥ Ⲡⲭⲥ ⳿ⲡϣⲏⲣⲓ ⳿ⲙ⳿Ⲫⲛⲟⲩϯ ⲛⲁⲓ ⲛⲏⲓ ⲁⲛⲟⲕ ⲡⲓⲣⲉϥⲉⲣⲛⲟⲃⲓ
يا ربي يسوع المسيح ابن الله ارحمني أنا الخاطئ
Severian
God save Egypt, Syria, Lebanon & Iraq
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic/Egyptian Orthodoxy
Posts: 5,039


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Christians

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #24 on: July 14, 2011, 04:50:25 PM »

@copticmind

Here's a post from an EO Christian from another thread on this website:
Quote
I have even gone so far to notify my priest that I will not sing the condemnations of Dioscorus because to do so would be to violate my conscience.  Im not saying that I dont accept Chalcedon, I do accept the essential Theanthropic truth that it teaches.  We are working this out and I hope I will not become excommunicated.  But from my point of view I have a duty to uphold the truth of the Orthodox faith and to condemn Dioscorus in my opinion would essentually be an attack on the body of Christ.  I fear the dread judgement seat of Christ.

and

Quote
I'm sorry, I just cant continue to relay words of condemnation on a man who is a saint.  Id rather not participate in that.  Some of your other advice i'm already following.  I should have kept it to myself though.


Those two posts moved my heart. The fact that an EO was willing to refrain from condemning St Dioscorus for the sake of unity moved me so much. God bless this person!

Logged

"What on Earth was I smoking?"

-My personal reaction when re-reading half of the c**p I've written on this forum.
Father Peter
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: British Orthodox Church within the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate
Posts: 2,645



WWW
« Reply #25 on: July 14, 2011, 04:54:33 PM »

copticmind, did the EP say that the OO must condemn St Severus or are you yourself reading that into his saying that the seven councils must be accepted?

Logged

Lord have mercy upon me a sinner
http://www.orthodoxmedway.org

My blog - http://anorthodoxpriest.blogspot.co.uk

The poster formerly known as peterfarrington
bishoy
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic Orthodox
Posts: 46


« Reply #26 on: July 14, 2011, 04:57:51 PM »

@copticmind

Here's a post from an EO Christian from another thread on this website:
Quote
I have even gone so far to notify my priest that I will not sing the condemnations of Dioscorus because to do so would be to violate my conscience.  Im not saying that I dont accept Chalcedon, I do accept the essential Theanthropic truth that it teaches.  We are working this out and I hope I will not become excommunicated.  But from my point of view I have a duty to uphold the truth of the Orthodox faith and to condemn Dioscorus in my opinion would essentually be an attack on the body of Christ.  I fear the dread judgement seat of Christ.

and

Quote
I'm sorry, I just cant continue to relay words of condemnation on a man who is a saint.  Id rather not participate in that.  Some of your other advice i'm already following.  I should have kept it to myself though.


Those two posts moved my heart. The fact that an EO was willing to refrain from condemning St Dioscorus for the sake of unity moved me so much. God bless this person!



Thank you for posting this! God bless!
Logged
Severian
God save Egypt, Syria, Lebanon & Iraq
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic/Egyptian Orthodoxy
Posts: 5,039


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Christians

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #27 on: July 14, 2011, 04:58:34 PM »

copticmind, did the EP say that the OO must condemn St Severus or are you yourself reading that into his saying that the seven councils must be accepted?


I watched the clip copticmind is talking about, and while the EP never mentioned condemning St Severus, for many EOs if every sneeze and cough of an 'ecumenical council' isn't God-inspired the council is no longer truly ecumenical. Thus, for many EOs lifting the anathemas off of our Saints entails undermining an 'ecumenical council'.
Logged

"What on Earth was I smoking?"

-My personal reaction when re-reading half of the c**p I've written on this forum.
copticmind
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Alexandria
Posts: 108


GeorgeFahim
WWW
« Reply #28 on: July 14, 2011, 04:59:30 PM »

copticmind, did the EP say that the OO must condemn St Severus or are you yourself reading that into his saying that the seven councils must be accepted?



Father bless,
No, he didn't say that we have to condemn St Severus or Pope Dioscorus, this was my conclusion since the later councils condemned them.
I am sorry if this wasn't clear from my post
Logged

Ⲡⲁϭⲟⲓⲥ Ⲓⲏⲥ Ⲡⲭⲥ ⳿ⲡϣⲏⲣⲓ ⳿ⲙ⳿Ⲫⲛⲟⲩϯ ⲛⲁⲓ ⲛⲏⲓ ⲁⲛⲟⲕ ⲡⲓⲣⲉϥⲉⲣⲛⲟⲃⲓ
يا ربي يسوع المسيح ابن الله ارحمني أنا الخاطئ
Father Peter
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: British Orthodox Church within the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate
Posts: 2,645



WWW
« Reply #29 on: July 14, 2011, 05:02:20 PM »

Aidan, no Coptic priest should be requiring baptism of an EO who has been baptised by immersion.

The canons of the OO require that an EO be received by prayer and confession of faith, this has been the rule since the time of St Dioscorus. This was the rule followed by St Timothy Aelurus. This was the rule followed by St Severus.

There has never been anything sacramental which has been required of an EO becoming an OO. There should be nothing else required of you.

Logged

Lord have mercy upon me a sinner
http://www.orthodoxmedway.org

My blog - http://anorthodoxpriest.blogspot.co.uk

The poster formerly known as peterfarrington
JamesRottnek
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Anglican
Jurisdiction: Episcopal Diocese of Arizona
Posts: 5,121


I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine


« Reply #30 on: July 14, 2011, 05:04:37 PM »

Just popping in to say how I voted:

I voted for the "I am EO and I believe the OO are not Orthodox."  Technically I am not yet an Orthodox Christian, but am definitely on the path.  Anyways,  to elaborate a bit, I believe the OO to be schismatic and am presently uncertain of their (small-o) orthodoxy.
Logged

I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011
Father Peter
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: British Orthodox Church within the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate
Posts: 2,645



WWW
« Reply #31 on: July 14, 2011, 05:05:14 PM »

We should not read things into the statements of others.

I was present at the enthronement of Patriarch Mesrob II in Constantinople, and the EP was seated on a throne in the middle of the nave. He spoke warmly and fraternally of the ministry of the new Patriarch and would not have been present at all had he held any negative views of our communion. He was then seated in honour at the celebration meal afterwards.

There are some who do indeed consider every sneeze at a council to be ecumenical, but I am not sure that they are any sort of majority. Let us not assume things of those who are people of good will.
Logged

Lord have mercy upon me a sinner
http://www.orthodoxmedway.org

My blog - http://anorthodoxpriest.blogspot.co.uk

The poster formerly known as peterfarrington
Severian
God save Egypt, Syria, Lebanon & Iraq
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic/Egyptian Orthodoxy
Posts: 5,039


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Christians

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #32 on: July 14, 2011, 05:08:15 PM »

Aidan, no Coptic priest should be requiring baptism of an EO who has been baptised by immersion.

The canons of the OO require that an EO be received by prayer and confession of faith, this has been the rule since the time of St Dioscorus. This was the rule followed by St Timothy Aelurus. This was the rule followed by St Severus.

There has never been anything sacramental which has been required of an EO becoming an OO. There should be nothing else required of you.


Yes, Father Peter is correct. My Coptic bishop visited my parish just this last Sunday and he said that while we baptise and chrismate almost all non-OOs, EOs are an exception. We only Chrismate EOs when they are received into the Orthodox Church.

I think I remember reading a letter from St Severus where he mentions how Pope St Timothy Aelurus only required Chalcedonians being received into the Church to sign a confession of faith. I think that's what the OOC should do when receiving EOs.

I actually wish the Coptic Churches in the USA started communing EOs. My Coptic diocese still consistently refuses to commune EOs. I also believe that when EOs want to join the OOC they should just recite a confession of faith.

Keep me in your prayers,
Severian
« Last Edit: July 14, 2011, 05:13:13 PM by Severian » Logged

"What on Earth was I smoking?"

-My personal reaction when re-reading half of the c**p I've written on this forum.
Severian
God save Egypt, Syria, Lebanon & Iraq
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic/Egyptian Orthodoxy
Posts: 5,039


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Christians

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #33 on: July 14, 2011, 05:10:25 PM »

We should not read things into the statements of others.

I was present at the enthronement of Patriarch Mesrob II in Constantinople, and the EP was seated on a throne in the middle of the nave. He spoke warmly and fraternally of the ministry of the new Patriarch and would not have been present at all had he held any negative views of our communion. He was then seated in honour at the celebration meal afterwards.

There are some who do indeed consider every sneeze at a council to be ecumenical, but I am not sure that they are any sort of majority. Let us not assume things of those who are people of good will.
I know that. My post wasn't directed towards Patriarch Bartholomew himself, but, towards EOs who really do think every nook and cranny of an ecumenical council is infallible. I respect the EP and most EP parishes in the US where I live commune OOs based on economy.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2011, 05:14:42 PM by Severian » Logged

"What on Earth was I smoking?"

-My personal reaction when re-reading half of the c**p I've written on this forum.
copticmind
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Alexandria
Posts: 108


GeorgeFahim
WWW
« Reply #34 on: July 14, 2011, 05:12:45 PM »

We should not read things into the statements of others.

I was present at the enthronement of Patriarch Mesrob II in Constantinople, and the EP was seated on a throne in the middle of the nave. He spoke warmly and fraternally of the ministry of the new Patriarch and would not have been present at all had he held any negative views of our communion. He was then seated in honour at the celebration meal afterwards.

There are some who do indeed consider every sneeze at a council to be ecumenical, but I am not sure that they are any sort of majority. Let us not assume things of those who are people of good will.

Point taken, Father. I apologize.
Logged

Ⲡⲁϭⲟⲓⲥ Ⲓⲏⲥ Ⲡⲭⲥ ⳿ⲡϣⲏⲣⲓ ⳿ⲙ⳿Ⲫⲛⲟⲩϯ ⲛⲁⲓ ⲛⲏⲓ ⲁⲛⲟⲕ ⲡⲓⲣⲉϥⲉⲣⲛⲟⲃⲓ
يا ربي يسوع المسيح ابن الله ارحمني أنا الخاطئ
zekarja
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 745


O Holy Prophet Zechariah, intercede to God for us!


« Reply #35 on: July 14, 2011, 06:06:15 PM »

I just want to say that I love my OO brothers. It's awesome that each jurisdiction has its own rite. Please forgive me if I caused any offense.


in Christ,
zekarja
Logged

deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #36 on: July 14, 2011, 06:40:45 PM »

It's awesome that each jurisdiction has its own rite.


Strictly speaking it's not true to say that each OO jurisdiction has a different rite from each other.
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
zekarja
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 745


O Holy Prophet Zechariah, intercede to God for us!


« Reply #37 on: July 14, 2011, 06:42:15 PM »

It's awesome that each jurisdiction has its own rite.


Strictly speaking it's not true to say that each OO jurisdiction has a different rite from each other.

My apologies. Embarrassed
Logged

deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #38 on: July 14, 2011, 06:59:23 PM »

It's awesome that each jurisdiction has its own rite.


Strictly speaking it's not true to say that each OO jurisdiction has a different rite from each other.

My apologies. Embarrassed

No need! Not all things incorrect are offensive.

Allow me to explain what I was referring to:

The Armenian Catholicosate of Etchmiadzin, the Armenian Catholicosate of Cilicia, the Armenian Patriarchate of Constantinople, and the Armenian Patriarchate of Jerusalem all follow the same rite, the Armenian rite.

The Syriac Orthodox Church, its Malankara Archdiocese (called the "Jacobite Syrian Christian Church"), and the independent Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church all follow the West Syrian rite.

And the Coptic Orthodox Church, the Ethiopian Church, and the Eritrean Church all roughly follow the same rite (though to a much less uniform degree than the two above groups).
« Last Edit: July 14, 2011, 06:59:48 PM by deusveritasest » Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
zekarja
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 745


O Holy Prophet Zechariah, intercede to God for us!


« Reply #39 on: July 14, 2011, 07:11:53 PM »

It's awesome that each jurisdiction has its own rite.


Strictly speaking it's not true to say that each OO jurisdiction has a different rite from each other.

My apologies. Embarrassed

No need! Not all things incorrect are offensive.

Allow me to explain what I was referring to:

The Armenian Catholicosate of Etchmiadzin, the Armenian Catholicosate of Cilicia, the Armenian Patriarchate of Constantinople, and the Armenian Patriarchate of Jerusalem all follow the same rite, the Armenian rite.

The Syriac Orthodox Church, its Malankara Archdiocese (called the "Jacobite Syrian Christian Church"), and the independent Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church all follow the West Syrian rite.

And the Coptic Orthodox Church, the Ethiopian Church, and the Eritrean Church all roughly follow the same rite (though to a much less uniform degree than the two above groups).

I see. Thanks! laugh
Logged

Severian
God save Egypt, Syria, Lebanon & Iraq
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic/Egyptian Orthodoxy
Posts: 5,039


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Christians

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #40 on: July 14, 2011, 07:22:49 PM »

It's awesome that each jurisdiction has its own rite.
Zekarja


Strictly speaking it's not true to say that each OO jurisdiction has a different rite from each other.

My apologies. Embarrassed
Zekarja, you may not think OOs are Orthodox, but you expressed your opinion politely and respectfully. You certainly didn't cause me any offence.


God bless,
Severian
« Last Edit: July 14, 2011, 07:42:02 PM by Severian » Logged

"What on Earth was I smoking?"

-My personal reaction when re-reading half of the c**p I've written on this forum.
Agabus
The user formerly known as Agabus.
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Pan-American Colloquial Convert Hybrid Orthodoxy.
Jurisdiction: We are all uncanonical now.
Posts: 2,250



« Reply #41 on: July 14, 2011, 07:37:21 PM »

The Christological issues are above my theological pay grade, so I don't know how to vote.
Logged

Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH
CoptoGeek
of Alexandria, the Christ-loving City
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Church
Posts: 1,425



« Reply #42 on: July 15, 2011, 08:11:12 AM »

The Christological issues are above my theological pay grade, so I don't know how to vote.

Oh c'mon Agabus. This is "The Internets", everyone is a scholar and genius here. Why just the other day I twittered my solution for world hunger  Cheesy
Logged

"Be oppressed, rather than the oppressor. Be gentle, rather than zealous. Lay hold of goodness, rather than justice." -St. Isaac of Nineveh

“I returned to the Coptic Orthodox Church with affection, finding in her our tormented and broken history“. -Salama Moussa
zekarja
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 745


O Holy Prophet Zechariah, intercede to God for us!


« Reply #43 on: July 15, 2011, 08:23:53 AM »

This is pretty well written for those who want to understand the OO view of Christ's nature: http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/theology/nature_of_christ.pdf It's written by the Coptic Pope Shenouda III. Smiley
Logged

deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #44 on: July 15, 2011, 03:06:42 PM »

No it's not. The last section is really bad.
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
Tags:
Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.137 seconds with 73 queries.