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primuspilus
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« on: July 14, 2011, 11:35:15 AM »

If this dosent go here, please feel free....just curious.

I realise that the churches of the Orthodox faith are pretty much stand-alone as far as the jurisdictions. However, lets say I run across a bishop of another jurisdiction (like Im on vacation or the E.P. decides to visit my town or something). How do I address them? Dude? Steve? Sir?

primuspilus

P.S. Also, what if I ran across the Pope and I'm EO? Even though he is "schismatic" would he still be given the respect of being who he is?
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« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2011, 12:07:29 PM »

If he were a member of the Church in communion with yours you should treat him as a Bishop from your Church. If he weren't I wouldn't treat him as a Bishop, ask him for a blessing etc.
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« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2011, 12:16:27 PM »

Your grace, your emminence, your beatitude, your holiness, vladyka, etc.
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« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2011, 12:22:39 PM »

I appreciate it. The reason this came up is Im going through The Orthodox Church by Met. Ware and he speaks of the Pope in terms that confused me...almost like he was still accorded the same respect as anyone else. Of course I could be mistaken how he meant it.
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« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2011, 04:45:42 PM »

I don't recall the exact passage from The Orthodox Church, but my guess is that the Metropolitan was probably just being polite.
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« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2011, 04:56:00 PM »

It was around the spot explaining about the Pope being a special case...chapter 2 somewhere. Im in work mode...I'll find it tonight. Smiley
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« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2011, 08:50:45 PM »

If I had a copy I would myself, but unfortunately I had to get one from the library.
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« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2011, 09:17:37 PM »

In answer to your primary question: even though I am a Greek in the flock of a Greek bishop, I would not hesitate to call a bishop of the Russian church "master", kiss his hand and ask his blessing. The Orthodox Church of Christ is one and indivisible.

On the question of how to address the Pope of Rome: I think there is a tendency amongst some Orthodox (with whom I disagree) to treat the Roman Church as something of a special case amongst the heterodox.

While we do not pay the Pope of Rome the respect of saying he is Orthodox, for reasons I don't quite understand, we have not installed our own Orthodox Pope in Rome as we have done in Alexandria. The Latins have not paid us the same courtesy, of course, installing their own Patriarchs of Constantinople, Antioch and Jerusalem.

I do not think it is appropriate to call the Pope of Rome "master", to kiss his hand or ask his blessing. Whether it is okay to call him "his Holiness" or "Patriarch of the West" may be a bit more fuzzy.
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« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2011, 09:57:18 PM »

It is, indeed, a shame that we haven't reestablished the long dormant See of Rome.  The Romanians even have a Bishop located (IIRC) in Rome, but his title is not "Pope So-And-So Patriarch of Rome" or even "Bishop So-And-So of Rome" it, I believe, is just "Bishop of Italy" or something along those lines.  When the Churches (if they ever) meet in the next few years, they ought to address the lack of a Bishop of Rome, and reestablish the Patriarchate.
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Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011
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« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2011, 09:44:25 AM »

Akimori, and all, thank you. That makes tons of sense. One more thing off of the "Dont get it" list....only about 30 to go...Smiley

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« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2011, 03:58:31 PM »

The key is to do it with respect and politeness--Your grace, your emminence, your beatitude, your holiness, vladyka, etc. as appropruate to his situation. When I meet a Roman Catholic Priest I address him as Father (his civil title), but I don'y ask for his blessing (his spiritual charism) as I am not in communion with him. Likewise I willshake the hand of a Protestant minister and call him Pastor  or Reverend (his civic title) but not ask his prayers as I am not in communion with him. If I meet an Orthodox Priest or Bishop to whom I am not in communion, I will be respectful and courteous call him by his appropriate titele but I would not request his blessing as we are not in communion.

Politeness and courtesy do not entail accepting the other person's credentials or reaching out in the hand of spiritual fellowship. As Christians we should love everyone and show this through politeness and common courtesy.

Thomas
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« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2011, 04:01:32 PM »

I appreciate it. The reason this came up is Im going through The Orthodox Church by Met. Ware and he speaks of the Pope in terms that confused me...almost like he was still accorded the same respect as anyone else. Of course I could be mistaken how he meant it.

If I recall correctly, Met. Kallistos thinks today's Pope is still the Patriarch Rome. In that case, he's wrong.
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« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2011, 05:55:09 PM »

The key is to do it with respect and politeness--Your grace, your emminence, your beatitude, your holiness, vladyka, etc. as appropruate to his situation. When I meet a Roman Catholic Priest I address him as Father (his civil title), but I don'y ask for his blessing (his spiritual charism) as I am not in communion with him. Likewise I willshake the hand of a Protestant minister and call him Pastor  or Reverend (his civic title) but not ask his prayers as I am not in communion with him. If I meet an Orthodox Priest or Bishop to whom I am not in communion, I will be respectful and courteous call him by his appropriate titele but I would not request his blessing as we are not in communion.

Politeness and courtesy do not entail accepting the other person's credentials or reaching out in the hand of spiritual fellowship. As Christians we should love everyone and show this through politeness and common courtesy.

Thomas

Just to be clear when you talk about "Orthodox Priest or bishop to whom I am not in communion" you mean someone like an Old Calendarist, not, say, the Greek Archbishop of America if you are in the OCA, right?  I am assuming that you mean the first, but for those who may not know quite so much about Orthodoxy, I just want to clarify.
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« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2011, 06:00:21 PM »

Quote
Just to be clear when you talk about "Orthodox Priest or bishop to whom I am not in communion" you mean someone like an Old Calendarist, not, say, the Greek Archbishop of America if you are in the OCA, right?  I am assuming that you mean the first, but for those who may not know quite so much about Orthodoxy, I just want to clarify.

I would imagine like an OO or something. Dont Old Calendarists and New still have communion with each other?

primuspilus
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« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2011, 06:13:12 PM »

Quote
Just to be clear when you talk about "Orthodox Priest or bishop to whom I am not in communion" you mean someone like an Old Calendarist, not, say, the Greek Archbishop of America if you are in the OCA, right?  I am assuming that you mean the first, but for those who may not know quite so much about Orthodoxy, I just want to clarify.

I would imagine like an OO or something. Dont Old Calendarists and New still have communion with each other?

primuspilus

Some Churches on the (Unrevised) Julian Calendar are in communion with those on the Revised Julian. Other Old Calendarists are in schism...though, I suppose they would say they are not the ones in schism.
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« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2011, 06:18:14 PM »

The term "Old Calendarist" is generally (at least in my experience) used to refer to groups like the Genuine Orthodox Church, and other groups which divided themselves from the Church, in part because of the Church's acceptance of a new calendar.  This does not apply, at least in my experience, to Old Calendar jurisdictions which accept the legitimacy of the use of the new calendar, even if they oppose its use for one reason or another (such groups include the Russian Orthodox Church, the Serbian Orthodox Church IIRC, amongst others).
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« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2011, 06:26:21 PM »

Well I gotta say, I've been reading on the calendar issue and I think that it really isnt that big of a deal....old or new calendar, both were invented by Romans.

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« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2011, 06:35:00 PM »

Well I gotta say, I've been reading on the calendar issue and I think that it really isnt that big of a deal....old or new calendar, both were invented by Romans.

primuspilus

It's a bigger issue than who created it or even the 13 days.
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« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2011, 06:56:03 PM »

Quote
It's a bigger issue than who created it or even the 13 days.

I understand...well...I cant say that, but I DO see that. I just think there's far more important things to worry about than that.

primuspilus
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« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2011, 07:51:30 PM »

I just think there's far more important things to worry about than that.

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You haven't been around here long, have you?  Cheesy
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« Reply #20 on: July 15, 2011, 07:53:42 PM »

Quote
You haven't been around here long, have you?

Me, a few months. Im sure after I convert, my priest will give me his views on the calendar and I'll become just as thick-headed about it  laugh

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« Reply #21 on: July 15, 2011, 08:16:28 PM »

I've never really understood why some people become very militant about their view of the calendar, even to the point where they would enter into schism.  I mean, they are MAN-MADE calendars, it isn't a calendar delivered unto us by God, but it seems some try to make it so.  I mean, if I could pick the calendar followed by every Orthodox Church, I would pick the old calendar.  Is this important to me though, no. 
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« Reply #22 on: July 15, 2011, 09:00:50 PM »

I'm sure it is what the calendar change represents, rather than the calendar per se.
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« Reply #23 on: July 15, 2011, 09:54:42 PM »

Accuracy?
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« Reply #24 on: July 15, 2011, 10:04:19 PM »

"Sergianism," compromise with the antichrist world, etc.
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« Reply #25 on: July 15, 2011, 10:14:00 PM »

The key is to do it with respect and politeness--Your grace, your emminence, your beatitude, your holiness, vladyka, etc. as appropruate to his situation. When I meet a Roman Catholic Priest I address him as Father (his civil title), but I don'y ask for his blessing (his spiritual charism) as I am not in communion with him. Likewise I willshake the hand of a Protestant minister and call him Pastor  or Reverend (his civic title) but not ask his prayers as I am not in communion with him. If I meet an Orthodox Priest or Bishop to whom I am not in communion, I will be respectful and courteous call him by his appropriate titele but I would not request his blessing as we are not in communion.

Politeness and courtesy do not entail accepting the other person's credentials or reaching out in the hand of spiritual fellowship. As Christians we should love everyone and show this through politeness and common courtesy.

Thomas

This sounds like the sensible, most courteous way to handle it.

What I always had a problem with in Judaism, was how to address a female so-called "rabbi". I was an Orthodox Jew, and as such, we did not at all recognize female "rabbis". I never knew how to handle it. Fortunately I didn't run into them that often.
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« Reply #26 on: July 15, 2011, 10:16:18 PM »

Quote
It's a bigger issue than who created it or even the 13 days.

I understand...well...I cant say that, but I DO see that. I just think there's far more important things to worry about than that.

primuspilus

I'm in favor of the Julian calendar because to me, once you make one modernization like that, where do you draw the line? I have noticed over time, that religions which make changes, end up making more....and more.
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« Reply #27 on: July 15, 2011, 10:38:12 PM »

How many people here plan on meeting the Pope any time in the near future, as to have to worry about what to address him as?  Cheesy
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« Reply #28 on: July 16, 2011, 12:07:39 AM »

That's true, but it is also useful to know for referencing him in the company of others.
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« Reply #29 on: July 16, 2011, 10:46:04 AM »

I'm sure it is what the calendar change represents, rather than the calendar per se.
Correct.
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« Reply #30 on: July 18, 2011, 09:59:58 AM »


Just to be clear when you talk about "Orthodox Priest or bishop to whom I am not in communion" you mean someone like an Old Calendarist, not, say, the Greek Archbishop of America if you are in the OCA, right?  I am assuming that you mean the first, but for those who may not know quite so much about Orthodoxy, I just want to clarify.
[/quote]

For example, I am in the Antiochian Orthodox Church, that means for example that my jurisdiction is not in communion with the Autonomous Orthodox Church of Europe or the Holy Roman Orthodox Church (for example). If I meet one of their clergy, I would be polite and call their clergy by their proper name and title but I would not pray with them, ask for their blessing or take communion from them---we are not in union or communion withthem. Should that situation change as it did with ROCOR and the new calendar churches in communion with the Ecumenical Patriarch, I would be IN union with them and allowed to commune by my jurisdiction as well as by their jurisdiction. IN Communion means that both jurisdictions agree to a common understanding and practice of the Orthodox Church.   Even if one is not in communion, it does not mean that we should be rude, mean, or angry instead we respond with mutual respect and offer the other the love of Christ until we can work out our issues and return to union or communion.


Thomas
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