OrthodoxChristianity.net
August 02, 2014, 05:13:44 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: A question about the Theotokos  (Read 789 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
kodiak
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 26


« on: July 13, 2011, 04:16:47 PM »

I am trying to understand in a little more detail the differences between RC beliefs of Mary and the Immaculate Conception vs. Orthodox beliefs.  Here is what I've understood so far, and I'm hoping people can correct me where I'm wrong.

For the RC:

-Mary was born free from original sin because she was to be the mother of Jesus
-Original sin was created by RCC that all people are born with this and are absolved of it through baptism.  Mary however had no original sin.
-Since Mary had no original sin, she is venerated in this regard as being pure, immaculate.

For the Orthodox:
-There is no original sin; people simply have to live in this world as a result of Adam & Eve's choices
-Mary was simply a person like any of us who was chosen to be the mother of Jesus
-She is venerated because she was a regular human like us but was Jesus' mother


Does that about cover it?
Logged
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 12,699



WWW
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2011, 04:20:57 PM »


She is not only the respected because she was the Mother of God, but, because of her obedience to God.

She could have said "no".

Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,967


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2011, 04:38:54 PM »


For the Orthodox:
-There is no original sin; people simply have to live in this world as a result of Adam & Eve's choices
-Mary was simply a person like any of us who was chosen to be the mother of Jesus
-She is venerated because she was a regular human like us but was Jesus' mother


Does that about cover it?

No, there is original sin, but not original guilt. A different understanding of something, not a negation of it.

Mary was not "simply a person like any of us," but was the child of righteous parents, born of a promise, raised in the temple, keeping a pure and holy life until her dormition. She is venerated because she  gave birth to the God-man, and through her God worked the wonder of His incarnation and virginal birth.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2011, 07:22:37 PM »

For the Orthodox:
-There is no original sin; people simply have to live in this world as a result of Adam & Eve's choices

Does that about cover it?

No, this premise is probably not entirely correct.
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
Volnutt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Agnostic/Universalist
Posts: 3,107


« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2011, 07:26:11 PM »


For the Orthodox:
-There is no original sin; people simply have to live in this world as a result of Adam & Eve's choices
-Mary was simply a person like any of us who was chosen to be the mother of Jesus
-She is venerated because she was a regular human like us but was Jesus' mother


Does that about cover it?

No, there is original sin, but not original guilt. A different understanding of something, not a negation of it.

Mary was not "simply a person like any of us," but was the child of righteous parents, born of a promise, raised in the temple, keeping a pure and holy life until her dormition. She is venerated because she  gave birth to the God-man, and through her God worked the wonder of His incarnation and virginal birth.
Yes, but she had the temptations and basic inclination toward sin that we have, I think that's all Kodiak meant.

Kodiak, she resisted all actual sin during her life through her own willpower (with Spirit's enabling, of course).
« Last Edit: July 13, 2011, 07:27:57 PM by Volnutt » Logged
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2011, 07:35:11 PM »

Yes, but she had the temptations and basic inclination toward sin that we have, I think that's all Kodiak meant.

The Orthodox doctrine of the fallen state of Man is not that simple.

It's very richly described in Saint Athanasius' On the Incarnation of the Logos.
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
kodiak
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 26


« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2011, 07:40:08 PM »

Hmm...ok, so we are all born with original sin?  There is no difference there between EC and RCC?
Logged
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2011, 07:47:09 PM »

Hmm...ok, so we are all born with original sin?  There is no difference there between EC and RCC?

There is a difference in general and there even is a difference regarding the fallen condition of Man. But to say that the Orthodox do not believe in original sin often implies that they believe in no inherited fallen condition, and this is simply not true. Both of you seem to have been influenced by this trend, as you seem to have underestimated the extent of the Orthodox doctrine.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2011, 07:47:30 PM by deusveritasest » Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
Volnutt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Agnostic/Universalist
Posts: 3,107


« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2011, 07:49:27 PM »

Yes, but she had the temptations and basic inclination toward sin that we have, I think that's all Kodiak meant.

The Orthodox doctrine of the fallen state of Man is not that simple.

It's very richly described in Saint Athanasius' On the Incarnation of the Logos.
Ok. I haven't read it.
Logged
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2011, 07:51:40 PM »

Yes, but she had the temptations and basic inclination toward sin that we have, I think that's all Kodiak meant.

The Orthodox doctrine of the fallen state of Man is not that simple.

It's very richly described in Saint Athanasius' On the Incarnation of the Logos.
Ok. I haven't read it.

Would you like me to summarize what I gleaned from it regarding the inherited fallen condition?
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
Volnutt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Agnostic/Universalist
Posts: 3,107


« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2011, 07:53:04 PM »

Please do. Smiley
Logged
katherineofdixie
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 3,202



« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2011, 10:25:02 AM »

Hmm...ok, so we are all born with original sin?  There is no difference there between EC and RCC?

There is a difference in general and there even is a difference regarding the fallen condition of Man. But to say that the Orthodox do not believe in original sin often implies that they believe in no inherited fallen condition, and this is simply not true. Both of you seem to have been influenced by this trend, as you seem to have underestimated the extent of the Orthodox doctrine.

FWIW, the Orthodox understanding original sin vs. original guilt was explained to me with two analogies: one is that our fallen condition can be compared to an inherited disease (think of something like fetal alcohol syndrome). Or like living in an area where previous generations clear-cut the forests, and dumped industrial chemicals in the rivers. The current generation, even if they are ecologically aware and responsible, still has to deal with the reality of the situation.
Logged

"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

 St. John Chrysostom
Father Peter
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: British Orthodox Church within the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate
Posts: 2,608



WWW
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2011, 10:31:17 AM »

We are born mortal but not sinful. We are born under the sentence which Adam heard given against him. We are born without the indwelling breath of God. We are born separated from God and cast out of Eden.



Logged

Lord have mercy upon me a sinner
http://www.orthodoxmedway.org

My blog - http://anorthodoxpriest.blogspot.co.uk

The poster formerly known as peterfarrington
Basil 320
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,995



« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2011, 11:33:53 AM »

The Theotokos is: "...Most Holy, Pure Most Blessed and Glorious Lady, the Mother of God, and Ever Virgin..."
Logged

"...Strengthen the Orthodox Community..."
Melodist
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: The Faith That Established The Universe
Jurisdiction: AOANA
Posts: 2,523



« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2011, 11:44:38 AM »

Or like living in an area where previous generations clear-cut the forests, and dumped industrial chemicals in the rivers. The current generation, even if they are ecologically aware and responsible, still has to deal with the reality of the situation.

Except for each generation after the first to destroy the land is born into a society in continuity with the established practices of the first generation until someone from the EPA moves into town, shows the people what nature is supposed to look like, and gives the power, instruction, and resources to clean up the mess.
Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God
Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.07 seconds with 41 queries.