Author Topic: A question about the Theotokos  (Read 908 times)

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Offline kodiak

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A question about the Theotokos
« on: July 13, 2011, 04:16:47 PM »
I am trying to understand in a little more detail the differences between RC beliefs of Mary and the Immaculate Conception vs. Orthodox beliefs.  Here is what I've understood so far, and I'm hoping people can correct me where I'm wrong.

For the RC:

-Mary was born free from original sin because she was to be the mother of Jesus
-Original sin was created by RCC that all people are born with this and are absolved of it through baptism.  Mary however had no original sin.
-Since Mary had no original sin, she is venerated in this regard as being pure, immaculate.

For the Orthodox:
-There is no original sin; people simply have to live in this world as a result of Adam & Eve's choices
-Mary was simply a person like any of us who was chosen to be the mother of Jesus
-She is venerated because she was a regular human like us but was Jesus' mother


Does that about cover it?

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: A question about the Theotokos
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2011, 04:20:57 PM »

She is not only the respected because she was the Mother of God, but, because of her obedience to God.

She could have said "no".

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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: A question about the Theotokos
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2011, 04:38:54 PM »

For the Orthodox:
-There is no original sin; people simply have to live in this world as a result of Adam & Eve's choices
-Mary was simply a person like any of us who was chosen to be the mother of Jesus
-She is venerated because she was a regular human like us but was Jesus' mother


Does that about cover it?

No, there is original sin, but not original guilt. A different understanding of something, not a negation of it.

Mary was not "simply a person like any of us," but was the child of righteous parents, born of a promise, raised in the temple, keeping a pure and holy life until her dormition. She is venerated because she  gave birth to the God-man, and through her God worked the wonder of His incarnation and virginal birth.
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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: A question about the Theotokos
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2011, 07:22:37 PM »
For the Orthodox:
-There is no original sin; people simply have to live in this world as a result of Adam & Eve's choices

Does that about cover it?

No, this premise is probably not entirely correct.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: A question about the Theotokos
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2011, 07:26:11 PM »

For the Orthodox:
-There is no original sin; people simply have to live in this world as a result of Adam & Eve's choices
-Mary was simply a person like any of us who was chosen to be the mother of Jesus
-She is venerated because she was a regular human like us but was Jesus' mother


Does that about cover it?

No, there is original sin, but not original guilt. A different understanding of something, not a negation of it.

Mary was not "simply a person like any of us," but was the child of righteous parents, born of a promise, raised in the temple, keeping a pure and holy life until her dormition. She is venerated because she  gave birth to the God-man, and through her God worked the wonder of His incarnation and virginal birth.
Yes, but she had the temptations and basic inclination toward sin that we have, I think that's all Kodiak meant.

Kodiak, she resisted all actual sin during her life through her own willpower (with Spirit's enabling, of course).
« Last Edit: July 13, 2011, 07:27:57 PM by Volnutt »
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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: A question about the Theotokos
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2011, 07:35:11 PM »
Yes, but she had the temptations and basic inclination toward sin that we have, I think that's all Kodiak meant.

The Orthodox doctrine of the fallen state of Man is not that simple.

It's very richly described in Saint Athanasius' On the Incarnation of the Logos.
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Offline kodiak

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Re: A question about the Theotokos
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2011, 07:40:08 PM »
Hmm...ok, so we are all born with original sin?  There is no difference there between EC and RCC?

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: A question about the Theotokos
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2011, 07:47:09 PM »
Hmm...ok, so we are all born with original sin?  There is no difference there between EC and RCC?

There is a difference in general and there even is a difference regarding the fallen condition of Man. But to say that the Orthodox do not believe in original sin often implies that they believe in no inherited fallen condition, and this is simply not true. Both of you seem to have been influenced by this trend, as you seem to have underestimated the extent of the Orthodox doctrine.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2011, 07:47:30 PM by deusveritasest »
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: A question about the Theotokos
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2011, 07:49:27 PM »
Yes, but she had the temptations and basic inclination toward sin that we have, I think that's all Kodiak meant.

The Orthodox doctrine of the fallen state of Man is not that simple.

It's very richly described in Saint Athanasius' On the Incarnation of the Logos.
Ok. I haven't read it.
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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: A question about the Theotokos
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2011, 07:51:40 PM »
Yes, but she had the temptations and basic inclination toward sin that we have, I think that's all Kodiak meant.

The Orthodox doctrine of the fallen state of Man is not that simple.

It's very richly described in Saint Athanasius' On the Incarnation of the Logos.
Ok. I haven't read it.

Would you like me to summarize what I gleaned from it regarding the inherited fallen condition?
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: A question about the Theotokos
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2011, 07:53:04 PM »
Please do. :)
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Offline katherineofdixie

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Re: A question about the Theotokos
« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2011, 10:25:02 AM »
Hmm...ok, so we are all born with original sin?  There is no difference there between EC and RCC?

There is a difference in general and there even is a difference regarding the fallen condition of Man. But to say that the Orthodox do not believe in original sin often implies that they believe in no inherited fallen condition, and this is simply not true. Both of you seem to have been influenced by this trend, as you seem to have underestimated the extent of the Orthodox doctrine.

FWIW, the Orthodox understanding original sin vs. original guilt was explained to me with two analogies: one is that our fallen condition can be compared to an inherited disease (think of something like fetal alcohol syndrome). Or like living in an area where previous generations clear-cut the forests, and dumped industrial chemicals in the rivers. The current generation, even if they are ecologically aware and responsible, still has to deal with the reality of the situation.
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Offline Father Peter

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Re: A question about the Theotokos
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2011, 10:31:17 AM »
We are born mortal but not sinful. We are born under the sentence which Adam heard given against him. We are born without the indwelling breath of God. We are born separated from God and cast out of Eden.



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Offline Basil 320

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Re: A question about the Theotokos
« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2011, 11:33:53 AM »
The Theotokos is: "...Most Holy, Pure Most Blessed and Glorious Lady, the Mother of God, and Ever Virgin..."
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Offline Melodist

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Re: A question about the Theotokos
« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2011, 11:44:38 AM »
Or like living in an area where previous generations clear-cut the forests, and dumped industrial chemicals in the rivers. The current generation, even if they are ecologically aware and responsible, still has to deal with the reality of the situation.

Except for each generation after the first to destroy the land is born into a society in continuity with the established practices of the first generation until someone from the EPA moves into town, shows the people what nature is supposed to look like, and gives the power, instruction, and resources to clean up the mess.
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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