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Author Topic: RC v. EO priests: who's more "liberal"?  (Read 3694 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: July 13, 2011, 03:36:02 PM »

Split off from http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,37854.msg600224.html#msg600224

What??? There are liberal priests in Eastern Orthodox? I thought your parishes were all bastions of conservative traditionalism.
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« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2011, 03:59:32 PM »

What??? There are liberal priests in Eastern Orthodox? I thought your parishes were all bastions of conservative traditionalism.

Of course there are liberal priests in the Orthodox Church. Whether there are any in heaven is another matter. Wink
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« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2011, 04:05:19 PM »

What??? There are liberal priests in Eastern Orthodox? I thought your parishes were all bastions of conservative traditionalism.

Let's keep things in perspective.
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« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2011, 04:09:22 PM »

What??? There are liberal priests in Eastern Orthodox? I thought your parishes were all bastions of conservative traditionalism.

Haha.  Cheesy

Unless we're speaking of Traditional Roman Catholic priests, such as those in the SSPX or SSPV, I'd say its RC priests, hands down.
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« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2011, 04:11:57 PM »

For you my dear friends, for your approval. The poster child of RC liberalism in America (NOT the poster child for RC's in America mind you)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Pfleger

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« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2011, 04:13:50 PM »

For you my dear friends, for your approval. The poster child of RC liberalism in America (NOT the poster child for RC's in America mind you)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Pfleger

primuspilus

GAG....why has he not been reprimanded? As if the removal of the Tridentine Latin Mass and all other Traditional Catholic sacraments was not reason enough for me to leave!

Is there an Orthodox equivalent of Pfleger, btw?
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« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2011, 04:15:25 PM »

Anyone who calls Jeremiah Wright (a near-militant supporter of Black Liberation "Theology") a biblical scholar should be thwacked in the head.

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« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2011, 04:17:42 PM »

What??? There are liberal priests in Eastern Orthodox? I thought your parishes were all bastions of conservative traditionalism.
LOL. I love it.
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« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2011, 04:22:52 PM »

Not sure if about this "liberal" thing versus "conservative," the whole A or B thing is so American media.  As if us "consumers" (in the UK you have subjects, in the USA you have consumers) are incapable of arguing for more than two simple points when the world is grey and not black and white.

Anyway, I like when the priest is liberal with the pouring of Slivovitch versus being conservative and only giving us one shot at the post-Pascha food bash.
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« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2011, 04:31:52 PM »

For you my dear friends, for your approval. The poster child of RC liberalism in America (NOT the poster child for RC's in America mind you)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Pfleger

primuspilus

GAG....why has he not been reprimanded? As if the removal of the Tridentine Latin Mass and all other Traditional Catholic sacraments was not reason enough for me to leave!

Is there an Orthodox equivalent of Pfleger, btw?

He was.  He had his faculties suspended for about a month earlier this year.
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« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2011, 04:39:45 PM »

Ernesto Obregon. But im not sure if he has a wiki. Basically, he got famous for saying anyone who opposes the muslim shrine at Ground Zero is a racist, etc.

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« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2011, 05:11:24 PM »

What??? There are liberal priests in Eastern Orthodox? I thought your parishes were all bastions of conservative traditionalism.
LOL. I love it.

You realize that the vast majority of the people here view these sorts of posts as incredibly childish and consequentially essentially pay you no heed?
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« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2011, 05:28:59 PM »

For you my dear friends, for your approval. The poster child of RC liberalism in America (NOT the poster child for RC's in America mind you)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Pfleger

primuspilus

GAG....why has he not been reprimanded? As if the removal of the Tridentine Latin Mass and all other Traditional Catholic sacraments was not reason enough for me to leave!

Is there an Orthodox equivalent of Pfleger, btw?

He was.  He had his faculties suspended for about a month earlier this year.

Only  a month? Well, I guess that's better than nothing.
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« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2011, 05:30:25 PM »

Ernesto Obregon. But im not sure if he has a wiki. Basically, he got famous for saying anyone who opposes the muslim shrine at Ground Zero is a racist, etc.

primuspilus

Ha. I took a bus with a few friends to NYC for that big protest against the mosque at Ground Zero. Like I argued with some of the lefty-kooky counter-protesters, how does being against a Muslim shrine at Ground Zero make you a "racist", when Islam is not a race but a religion?

Playing the race/religion/gender card gets very old, very fast.
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« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2011, 05:51:33 PM »

What??? There are liberal priests in Eastern Orthodox? I thought your parishes were all bastions of conservative traditionalism.
LOL. I love it.

You realize that the vast majority of the people here view these sorts of posts as incredibly childish and consequentially essentially pay you no heed?
Childish? You mean like the KKK thread?
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« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2011, 06:00:12 PM »

On Wikipedia:

On Wednesday, April 27, 2011, the homepage of the website of the Archdiocese of Chicago released a statement from Cardinal Francis George in the form of a letter, temporarily suspending Father Pfleger from administering any of the sacraments (save for the administration of the Sacrament of Penance in an emergency, which even laicized or excommunicated priests may do) and from his active ministry as pastor of St. Sabina's Parish. George had recently suggested that Pfleger take the position of president at Chicago's Leo High School, but Pfleger said he would consider leaving the Catholic Church if forced to leave his parish. Cardinal George replied, in part, "If that is truly your attitude, you have already left the Catholic Church". [32] Cardinal George lifted the suspension on May 20, 2011.[33]

If Cardinal George really meant that, why did he lift the suspension?
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« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2011, 10:20:14 AM »

Quote
Ha. I took a bus with a few friends to NYC for that big protest against the mosque at Ground Zero. Like I argued with some of the lefty-kooky counter-protesters, how does being against a Muslim shrine at Ground Zero make you a "racist", when Islam is not a race but a religion?

Playing the race/religion/gender card gets very old, very fast

Oh I know that, I was simply stating what he was saying.

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« Reply #17 on: July 14, 2011, 12:00:25 PM »

On Wikipedia:

On Wednesday, April 27, 2011, the homepage of the website of the Archdiocese of Chicago released a statement from Cardinal Francis George in the form of a letter, temporarily suspending Father Pfleger from administering any of the sacraments (save for the administration of the Sacrament of Penance in an emergency, which even laicized or excommunicated priests may do) and from his active ministry as pastor of St. Sabina's Parish. George had recently suggested that Pfleger take the position of president at Chicago's Leo High School, but Pfleger said he would consider leaving the Catholic Church if forced to leave his parish. Cardinal George replied, in part, "If that is truly your attitude, you have already left the Catholic Church". [32] Cardinal George lifted the suspension on May 20, 2011.[33]

If Cardinal George really meant that, why did he lift the suspension?

For much the same reason your sins are absolved when you go to confession.

Perhaps Pfleger decided he still wants to be Father Pfleger and he repented and was forgiven and restored.

If or when he steps out of line again, perhaps the consequences will be more harsh.

I wonder if that would work for people with habitual sins?

Do you have any habitual sins?  I know I do.
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« Reply #18 on: July 14, 2011, 12:10:59 PM »

Quote
or much the same reason your sins are absolved when you go to confession.

Perhaps Pfleger decided he still wants to be Father Pfleger and he repented and was forgiven and restored.

If or when he steps out of line again, perhaps the consequences will be more harsh.

I wonder if that would work for people with habitual sins?

Do you have any habitual sins?  I know I do.

Either way, I think that by the church allowing his escapades to go on will only hurther injure the Roman Catholic name in the USA more than it already is.

What he is doing isnt a habitual thing. He is actively going out and not only saying/doing the things he is doing, but he's advertising it as well. To me, that does not sound too repentant.

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« Reply #19 on: July 14, 2011, 12:15:42 PM »

Quote
or much the same reason your sins are absolved when you go to confession.

Perhaps Pfleger decided he still wants to be Father Pfleger and he repented and was forgiven and restored.

If or when he steps out of line again, perhaps the consequences will be more harsh.

I wonder if that would work for people with habitual sins?

Do you have any habitual sins?  I know I do.

Either way, I think that by the church allowing his escapades to go on will only hurther injure the Roman Catholic name in the USA more than it already is.

What he is doing isnt a habitual thing. He is actively going out and not only saying/doing the things he is doing, but he's advertising it as well. To me, that does not sound too repentant.

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On those grounds alone, I will be happy to extend mercy, for I require mercy or I will burn.
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« Reply #20 on: July 14, 2011, 12:55:06 PM »

To "do so no more" is the truest repentance.
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« Reply #21 on: July 14, 2011, 01:03:16 PM »

To "do so no more" is the truest repentance.

When you achieve that let me know...Till then I think that mercy is in order.
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« Reply #22 on: July 14, 2011, 01:09:51 PM »

To "do so no more" is the truest repentance.

When you achieve that let me know...Till then I think that mercy is in order.

Personal mercy, yes.

But when a priest continually disobeys his ordinary and is cause for scandal, you cannot...CANNOT...say that he should be allowed to remain in active ministry.

That's what is at issue here, not if he's going to hell or not.  For the good of the church, priests such as Fr. Pfleger (and even his extreme opposites) should and must be disciplined properly.  Methinks the good bishop let Fr. Plfeger off the hook because he was afraid of losing the parishoners at St. Sabina.  We've entered an era where a bishop is afraid to teach the Truth and will let his flock dabble in heresy.  This isn't being pastoral, it's being a coward.
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« Reply #23 on: July 14, 2011, 01:16:31 PM »

To "do so no more" is the truest repentance.

When you achieve that let me know...Till then I think that mercy is in order.

Personal mercy, yes.

But when a priest continually disobeys his ordinary and is cause for scandal, you cannot...CANNOT...say that he should be allowed to remain in active ministry.

That's what is at issue here, not if he's going to hell or not.  For the good of the church, priests such as Fr. Pfleger (and even his extreme opposites) should and must be disciplined properly.  Methinks the good bishop let Fr. Plfeger off the hook because he was afraid of losing the parishoners at St. Sabina.  We've entered an era where a bishop is afraid to teach the Truth and will let his flock dabble in heresy.  This isn't being pastoral, it's being a coward.

I understand what you are saying.  Time will tell if there is a more severe response necessitated by Father's behavior.  The idea that a parish community will fall away is not a small consideration but it is surely not the only one.  It was not enough to keep him from removing his faculties in the first place.
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« Reply #24 on: July 14, 2011, 01:22:08 PM »

St. Sabina's is a predominately African-American parish, which lends an interesting twist to the whole thing.

Do you mean politically or theological liberal/conservative?

I grew up RC, Orthodox now for 7.5 years, with a 10 year detour of being lapsed and 5 years with the Episcopalians.

The Orthodox priests I've run across in my area (and there are a lot) seem to be, as a whole, pretty theologically conservative. On the political spectrum, I don't really know.

The Catholic priests of my childhood - into the mid-1980s, if I remember correctly, were old school Democrats - VERY pro-life, but agreed with the Dems on everything else. Other than the post-Vatican II watered down stuff, I don't remember any of the weirdness you get in some RC parishes nowaways, with what I've heard from friends and other places.

The Q&A shows of Catholic Answers are great for hearing what's wrong - or at least what RC laity perceive is wrong - with regards to liturgical abuses, priests stonewalling more traditional practices, etc.
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« Reply #25 on: July 14, 2011, 02:27:12 PM »

To "do so no more" is the truest repentance.

When you achieve that let me know...Till then I think that mercy is in order.

Personal mercy, yes.

But when a priest continually disobeys his ordinary and is cause for scandal, you cannot...CANNOT...say that he should be allowed to remain in active ministry.

That's what is at issue here, not if he's going to hell or not.  For the good of the church, priests such as Fr. Pfleger (and even his extreme opposites) should and must be disciplined properly.  Methinks the good bishop let Fr. Plfeger off the hook because he was afraid of losing the parishoners at St. Sabina.  We've entered an era where a bishop is afraid to teach the Truth and will let his flock dabble in heresy.  This isn't being pastoral, it's being a coward.

I totally agree 1000%. As well as with the reason why I think the Bishop let him off the hook.
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« Reply #26 on: July 14, 2011, 02:30:50 PM »

St. Sabina's is a predominately African-American parish, which lends an interesting twist to the whole thing.

Do you mean politically or theological liberal/conservative?

I grew up RC, Orthodox now for 7.5 years, with a 10 year detour of being lapsed and 5 years with the Episcopalians.

The Orthodox priests I've run across in my area (and there are a lot) seem to be, as a whole, pretty theologically conservative. On the political spectrum, I don't really know.

The Catholic priests of my childhood - into the mid-1980s, if I remember correctly, were old school Democrats - VERY pro-life, but agreed with the Dems on everything else. Other than the post-Vatican II watered down stuff, I don't remember any of the weirdness you get in some RC parishes nowaways, with what I've heard from friends and other places.

The Q&A shows of Catholic Answers are great for hearing what's wrong - or at least what RC laity perceive is wrong - with regards to liturgical abuses, priests stonewalling more traditional practices, etc.

This is another reason why I'm thankful that when I was in Roman Catholicism, I stuck with the SSPX. Their priests are not only theologically conservative, but EXTREMELY conservative politically (mostly of a European slant, but nonetheless.) I'm thankful that I really have not had to cope with theological OR political liberalism.
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« Reply #27 on: July 14, 2011, 02:36:48 PM »

Quote
On those grounds alone, I will be happy to extend mercy, for I require mercy or I will burn.

I totally understand your point on this, however I think that if you do something because "oh, God will forgive me" you're taking advantage of God's Grace in a very dangerous way.

If you are repenting, you truly wish to do that sin no more, even if you do it, you are sincere in not wanting to do it again.

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« Reply #28 on: July 14, 2011, 05:47:29 PM »

Another part of it is that there aren't many Roman Catholic priests to begin with. You can't suspend them left and right without leaving MAJOR pastoral problems in the diocese.

For comparison, there were 400 priests in our diocese when the Bishop was ordained to priesthood. Now there are 116 active priests.
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« Reply #29 on: July 14, 2011, 06:25:54 PM »

What??? There are liberal priests in Eastern Orthodox? I thought your parishes were all bastions of conservative traditionalism.

I thought all liberals were Anglican.

:scratch chin:
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« Reply #30 on: July 14, 2011, 06:35:23 PM »

Not sure if about this "liberal" thing versus "conservative," the whole A or B thing is so American media.  As if us "consumers" (in the UK you have subjects, in the USA you have consumers) are incapable of arguing for more than two simple points when the world is grey and not black and white.

Anyway, I like when the priest is liberal with the pouring of Slivovitch versus being conservative and only giving us one shot at the post-Pascha food bash.

Definitions might help ...

Quote
As the heretics of yesterday have become the liberals of today, the liberals of yesterday now lay claim to the title "conservative". Consequentially the conservatives came to be known as "traditionalists". Unfortunately, these terms are no longer completely accurate descriptions. So for the purposes of this essay, I will use the following general definitions to delineate the differences between traditionalists and "conservatives":

TRADITIONALIST: One who challenges the novel practices and teachings of Catholics (including bishops and priests) which appear to contradict the prior teaching of the Church. A traditionalist questions the prudence of new pastoral approaches and holds the belief that those things generally deemed objectively good or evil several decades ago remain so today.

"CONSERVATIVE": One who upholds and defends the current policies and positions of the Church hierarchy regardless of their novelty. A "conservative" extends the definitions of "infallibility" and "Magisterium" to include most every action and speech of the Pope and those Cardinals around him, but may exclude those Cardinals and bishops outside of Rome. A "conservative's" opinion is also subject to change depending on the current actions of the Holy Father. "Conservative" will be used it in quotation marks to avoid the misleading connotation of being diametrically opposed to liberalism or on the far right of the spectrum. Also since there only exists a desire to "conserve" only those traditions and practices of the past deemed appropriate at any given time by the present Pope. The quotation marks will also ensure a proper dissociation between the actual conservatives active prior to and during Vatican II (Ottaviani, Lefebvre, Fenton, etc.).

Both traditionalists and "conservatives" acknowledge the existence of problems in the Church but disagree as to their nature, extent, causes and remedies.

"Conservatives" see it as an "illness" — an incidental problem like a gangrene limb. In the English-speaking world, this problem may be limited to the actions of certain American bishops. "Conservatives" see the novelties of Vatican II and the New Mass as natural and acceptable developments in the course of the Church, but take issue with those seeking to expand upon those novelties, or take them to their next logical progression. They see the crisis in the Church as a societal issue that would have happened regardless of what actions the Church leadership had taken. Their solution is to return to Vatican II and embark on another attempt to "renew" the Church.

Traditionalists see the illness as a widespread cancer affecting the whole body put most particularly and critically the heart. They question the prudence of making significant changes in the Mass and the Church's pastoral orientation. They attribute the destruction to liberal and Modernist ideals given a certain degree of acceptability once the Church decided to stop fighting them with extreme vigilance. They see the Church leadership as sharing in the responsibility for the crisis due to its governance (or lack thereof). Their solution is not another attempt at a reform that may be "more in line with the 'spirit' of Vatican II" (shudder), but a return to the practices and beliefs of the Church that sustained it for hundreds of years prior.

- A Brief Defense of Traditionalism
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« Reply #31 on: July 14, 2011, 07:33:16 PM »

Another part of it is that there aren't many Roman Catholic priests to begin with. You can't suspend them left and right without leaving MAJOR pastoral problems in the diocese.

For comparison, there were 400 priests in our diocese when the Bishop was ordained to priesthood. Now there are 116 active priests.

SSPX seminaries are literally bursting at the seams.  Grin
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« Reply #32 on: July 14, 2011, 08:31:02 PM »

Another part of it is that there aren't many Roman Catholic priests to begin with. You can't suspend them left and right without leaving MAJOR pastoral problems in the diocese.

For comparison, there were 400 priests in our diocese when the Bishop was ordained to priesthood. Now there are 116 active priests.

SSPX seminaries are literally bursting at the seams.  Grin

Really? Sounds expensive. 
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« Reply #33 on: July 14, 2011, 08:53:38 PM »

Another part of it is that there aren't many Roman Catholic priests to begin with. You can't suspend them left and right without leaving MAJOR pastoral problems in the diocese.

For comparison, there were 400 priests in our diocese when the Bishop was ordained to priesthood. Now there are 116 active priests.

SSPX seminaries are literally bursting at the seams.  Grin

Really? Sounds expensive. 

I don't doubt it. The only part of Roman Catholicism that seems to be moderately thriving is the traditional sector. Even seminaries that require 7 years of training, like Our Lady of Guadalupe Seminary run by the traditionalist FSSP, have higher output than their Novus Ordo counterparts.
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« Reply #34 on: July 14, 2011, 09:45:59 PM »

Another part of it is that there aren't many Roman Catholic priests to begin with. You can't suspend them left and right without leaving MAJOR pastoral problems in the diocese.

For comparison, there were 400 priests in our diocese when the Bishop was ordained to priesthood. Now there are 116 active priests.

SSPX seminaries are literally bursting at the seams.  Grin

Really? Sounds expensive.  

I don't doubt it. The only part of Roman Catholicism that seems to be moderately thriving is the traditional sector. Even seminaries that require 7 years of training, like Our Lady of Guadalupe Seminary run by the traditionalist FSSP, have higher output than their Novus Ordo counterparts.

Its true. I was reading an article about it recently; the SSPX seminary in Minnesota    is over their capacity with seminarians, assigning more to each room than the rooms were built to handle, while awaiting a new seminary being built for them in Virginia.

There are several articles about it online, but this is straight from their website:

http://www.sspxseminary.org/publications/announcements-archive/511.html
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« Reply #35 on: July 15, 2011, 12:11:15 AM »

Another part of it is that there aren't many Roman Catholic priests to begin with. You can't suspend them left and right without leaving MAJOR pastoral problems in the diocese.

For comparison, there were 400 priests in our diocese when the Bishop was ordained to priesthood. Now there are 116 active priests.

SSPX seminaries are literally bursting at the seams.  Grin

Really? Sounds expensive. 

I don't doubt it. The only part of Roman Catholicism that seems to be moderately thriving is the traditional sector. Even seminaries that require 7 years of training, like Our Lady of Guadalupe Seminary run by the traditionalist FSSP, have higher output than their Novus Ordo counterparts.
also with that, diocese such as Phoenix and Denver i want to say(something on colorado) have higher ordination rates and applications than their more liberal dioceses. incidentally, they have no female altar servers
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« Reply #36 on: July 15, 2011, 11:52:10 PM »

Another part of it is that there aren't many Roman Catholic priests to begin with. You can't suspend them left and right without leaving MAJOR pastoral problems in the diocese.

For comparison, there were 400 priests in our diocese when the Bishop was ordained to priesthood. Now there are 116 active priests.

SSPX seminaries are literally bursting at the seams.  Grin

Really? Sounds expensive.  

I don't doubt it. The only part of Roman Catholicism that seems to be moderately thriving is the traditional sector. Even seminaries that require 7 years of training, like Our Lady of Guadalupe Seminary run by the traditionalist FSSP, have higher output than their Novus Ordo counterparts.

Yeah, but in those cases there are just on or two Traditionalist seminaries in North America.  If there were ten or twenty of them, would they be as filled to capacity as the two already in existence?
I think a lot of the hype about Traditional Catholicism's growth is just that, hype.  I've looked at statistics which show that, since the Pope's Moto Proprio freeing the old Latin Mass in 2007, the number of TLM's hasn't increased as dramatically as some would have us think.  Traditional Catholicism seems to thrive only because the trads as a whole are a rather clannish and insulated group (I've notice numerous Trad priest who have the same last names which makes me be live that they are of the same, usually large Families).  Insulation,. combined with small numbers to begin with can give the impression then any group of people is larger then they appear to be.

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« Reply #37 on: July 16, 2011, 01:21:48 AM »

Ha. I took a bus with a few friends to NYC for that big protest against the mosque at Ground Zero. Like I argued with some of the lefty-kooky counter-protesters, how does being against a Muslim shrine at Ground Zero make you a "racist", when Islam is not a race but a religion?

Playing the race/religion/gender card gets very old, very fast.

Do you even read your posts before posting them?

Being against it just pretty much means you have no understanding of the tenets of Liberal Democracy. And that you "protest" it, you have too much time on your hands.

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« Reply #38 on: July 16, 2011, 01:25:59 AM »

To "do so no more" is the truest repentance.

When you achieve that let me know...Till then I think that mercy is in order.

Personal mercy, yes.

But when a priest continually disobeys his ordinary and is cause for scandal, you cannot...CANNOT...say that he should be allowed to remain in active ministry.

That's what is at issue here, not if he's going to hell or not.  For the good of the church, priests such as Fr. Pfleger (and even his extreme opposites) should and must be disciplined properly.  Methinks the good bishop let Fr. Plfeger off the hook because he was afraid of losing the parishoners at St. Sabina.  We've entered an era where a bishop is afraid to teach the Truth and will let his flock dabble in heresy.  This isn't being pastoral, it's being a coward.
Maybe it is the priest shortage that is causing a leniency in discipline?
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« Reply #39 on: July 16, 2011, 08:54:38 AM »

Being against it just pretty much means you have no understanding of the tenets of Liberal Democracy.

Isn't one of those tenets is being able to be "against"?
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« Reply #40 on: July 16, 2011, 09:43:45 AM »

Being against it just pretty much means you have no understanding of the tenets of Liberal Democracy.

Isn't one of those tenets is being able to be "against"?

There is no law against foolishness.

Go be "against" the building of a Baptist Church which has complied with all the ordinances covering its building based on the fact it is a Baptist Church.

Give me a break.
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« Reply #41 on: July 16, 2011, 03:20:18 PM »

Ha. I took a bus with a few friends to NYC for that big protest against the mosque at Ground Zero. Like I argued with some of the lefty-kooky counter-protesters, how does being against a Muslim shrine at Ground Zero make you a "racist", when Islam is not a race but a religion?

Playing the race/religion/gender card gets very old, very fast.

Do you even read your posts before posting them?

Being against it just pretty much means you have no understanding of the tenets of Liberal Democracy. And that you "protest" it, you have too much time on your hands.



I was not protesting the existence of a mosque. I was protesting the LOCATION chosen for it...right at the heart of Ground Zero. My husband lost a very good friend and co-worker in 9/11, I don't know of a single family member of those lost on 9/11 who felt the mosque should be placed right near the center of that tragedy.
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« Reply #42 on: July 16, 2011, 03:55:48 PM »

Ha. I took a bus with a few friends to NYC for that big protest against the mosque at Ground Zero. Like I argued with some of the lefty-kooky counter-protesters, how does being against a Muslim shrine at Ground Zero make you a "racist", when Islam is not a race but a religion?

Playing the race/religion/gender card gets very old, very fast.

Do you even read your posts before posting them?

Being against it just pretty much means you have no understanding of the tenets of Liberal Democracy. And that you "protest" it, you have too much time on your hands.



I was not protesting the existence of a mosque. I was protesting the LOCATION chosen for it...right at the heart of Ground Zero. My husband lost a very good friend and co-worker in 9/11,I don't know of a single family member of those lost on 9/11 who felt the mosque should be placed right near the center of that tragedy.

Well that is a compelling argument. //::=|
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« Reply #43 on: July 16, 2011, 04:05:14 PM »



I was not protesting the existence of a mosque. I was protesting the LOCATION chosen for it...right at the heart of Ground Zero. My husband lost a very good friend and co-worker in 9/11, I don't know of a single family member of those lost on 9/11 who felt the mosque should be placed right near the center of that tragedy.

What does a mosque have to do with 9/11? Did you know there was already a mosque IN the one of the twin towers before they were destroyed?

http://www.businessinsider.com/there-already-was-a-ground-zero-mosque-2010-9
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« Reply #44 on: July 17, 2011, 01:36:28 AM »



I was not protesting the existence of a mosque. I was protesting the LOCATION chosen for it...right at the heart of Ground Zero. My husband lost a very good friend and co-worker in 9/11, I don't know of a single family member of those lost on 9/11 who felt the mosque should be placed right near the center of that tragedy.

What does a mosque have to do with 9/11? Did you know there was already a mosque IN the one of the twin towers before they were destroyed?

http://www.businessinsider.com/there-already-was-a-ground-zero-mosque-2010-9

Don't confuse the folks with facts. The only thing worse would be a synagoge. //:=|

Actually, what would be worse is creating a hub of buildings dedicated to the slicing up of creation into commodities to be bought and sold and banks to back the speculative interests of those to exploit the ignorance of others.
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« Reply #45 on: July 17, 2011, 04:41:36 AM »



I was not protesting the existence of a mosque. I was protesting the LOCATION chosen for it...right at the heart of Ground Zero. My husband lost a very good friend and co-worker in 9/11, I don't know of a single family member of those lost on 9/11 who felt the mosque should be placed right near the center of that tragedy.

What does a mosque have to do with 9/11? Did you know there was already a mosque IN the one of the twin towers before they were destroyed?

http://www.businessinsider.com/there-already-was-a-ground-zero-mosque-2010-9

Don't confuse the folks with facts. The only thing worse would be a synagoge. //:=|

Actually, what would be worse is creating a hub of buildings dedicated to the slicing up of creation into commodities to be bought and sold and banks to back the speculative interests of those to exploit the ignorance of others.

But, but - those are the "freedoms" that we're hated for around the world! Aren't they?

And just what do you have against synagogues mister? Is that an Adolf Hitler 'smiley'?
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« Reply #46 on: July 17, 2011, 04:58:55 AM »

And just what do you have against synagogues mister? Is that an Adolf Hitler 'smiley'?

Based on the beginning of your response, I have hope for you.

Hang around and perhaps you'll understand the synagoge comment and the smiley. Inside baseball.

Spine-tingling stuff, I know . . .
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« Reply #47 on: July 17, 2011, 06:34:06 AM »

And just what do you have against synagogues mister? Is that an Adolf Hitler 'smiley'?

Based on the beginning of your response, I have hope for you.

Hang around and perhaps you'll understand the synagoge comment and the smiley. Inside baseball.

Spine-tingling stuff, I know . . .

Hope springs eternal, etc. Take that ball outside young man.
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« Reply #48 on: July 17, 2011, 03:53:47 PM »

I don't doubt it. The only part of Roman Catholicism that seems to be moderately thriving is the traditional sector. Even seminaries that require 7 years of training, like Our Lady of Guadalupe Seminary run by the traditionalist FSSP, have higher output than their Novus Ordo counterparts.

I apologize, but this issue is a pet peeve of mine so I'm going to rant about it for a bit.

First, it is true that Our Lady of Guadalupe Seminary is over-applied and has to turn down applicants.   They have also recently greatly increased their facility, IIRC they expanded from being able to take 50 seminarians per year to 150.  (note that this is for a 7 year program, so that means that at the previous size a maximum of 7 per year would become priests, assuming no one fell out of the program).  That is not really surprising, looking at it sociologically, since traditionalism of various forms is a nation-wide movement (with many congregations, a high birth rate and a highly strong socialization rate which would  foster a number of vocations.  And the FSSP is to my knowledge the only seminary-type program that would cater to that market).   Nevertheless, since the FSSP is not schismatic a Catholic would have to rejoice at this, and indeed the 3-4 FSSP seminarians I met seemed to be the types who would make great priests.   

That being said, the size of "regular" diocesan structures in my experience dwarfs the weight of the traditionalist movement.    To talk priestly vocations, one diocese I've been to has 30-some people in the seminary right now, and has I believe 7 join up this year (I've met 3-4 of these dudes).   Another diocese had something around 1000 people become Catholic this past Holy Saturday through the RCIA program - a number greater than the entire traditionalist presence in that diocese and its two neighbors.   (we also hope that since they went through the RCIA process, most came out of conviction instead of "I'll do this to make my spouse's parents happy", who have alternate mechanisms).   

So the traditionalist movement is thriving, but I think the regular Catholic system is also thriving in certain areas, and regardless it dwarfs traditionalism simply due to size. 


As to the title of this thread.....

.... it depends of course on what one means by "liberal".   If one bases simply on what political issues they preach about, there are a good number of politically liberal (i.e. preach about issues in a way that shows they prefer the Democrats) Catholic priests, perhaps a third or so of the ones I happen to know, in my area.   

If one means "liberal" in the sense of what's been called in academia "liberal" theology for the past 150 years or so (the sorts of things you see in most mainline protestant churches), about 25% of the Catholic priests I've met in my area essentially fit that description (with the highest proportion in the Jesuits), while I've never met an Orthodox priest who espouses that kind of theology.   At the same time, I've never met a Catholic priest under the age of 50 (which accounts for about 50% of the priests I know) who is for "liberal" theology.   Most/all of these folks seem adhere very strongly to the present Catechism/papal line.   

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« Reply #49 on: July 22, 2011, 01:47:34 PM »

but I think the regular Catholic system is also thriving in certain areas,  


From things I have read in the past four or five years, "regular" RCC dioceses such as Omaha, NE and Saginaw, MI have larger than usual numbers of men going to seminary than other RCC dioceses.

Does each Catholic diocese have its own seminary or has there been any movement to consolidate to save resources - perhaps have regional seminaries, rather than one in each state? I don't know how the Catholic seminary system works, so I'm curious.
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« Reply #50 on: July 22, 2011, 08:34:56 PM »

but I think the regular Catholic system is also thriving in certain areas,  


From things I have read in the past four or five years, "regular" RCC dioceses such as Omaha, NE and Saginaw, MI have larger than usual numbers of men going to seminary than other RCC dioceses.

Does each Catholic diocese have its own seminary or has there been any movement to consolidate to save resources - perhaps have regional seminaries, rather than one in each state? I don't know how the Catholic seminary system works, so I'm curious.

Theodora Elizabeth,

I think each diocese used to, but the much reduced number of seminarians (as well as a decline in numbers of teachers) has reduced the number of seminaries.  Since we now know that the seminary system of the time (50s-70s) had significant but hidden problems of heterodoxy and abuse, part of me thinks that may not a be a bad thing.   I think the current system is a matter of "which seminaries have survived" and "which have been founded to meet current needs" on something like a market basis (dioceses will send their comparatively fewer seminarians to where they think has the best formation), as opposed to a centrally planned "one seminary per diocese".   I also believe the Latin Church has more dioceses in the US now than it did in the 50s, spread out over all the country (as opposed to ethnic enclaves), which combined with cars in every house and cheap plane travel makes me think that a market approach may be better than everyone establishing their own seminary.

We see a bit in my Eparchy - i'm told that once we had our own seminary in Boston which did some teaching, but also sent people to classes at local theology schools (to include Holy Cross Greek Orthodox Seminary), then reportedly we sent most people straight to Holy Cross, but the only seminarian I know that we have now is at the Carpatho-Rusyn Greek Catholic seminary.   No idea why these changes happened (none of my business really), but it does follow the general trend of having "our own" seminary to sending seminarians where we think is best (though I hope our seminary never had problems of abuse or heterodoxy!!!)

Markos   
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« Reply #51 on: July 24, 2011, 10:36:20 AM »

but I think the regular Catholic system is also thriving in certain areas,  


From things I have read in the past four or five years, "regular" RCC dioceses such as Omaha, NE and Saginaw, MI have larger than usual numbers of men going to seminary than other RCC dioceses.

Does each Catholic diocese have its own seminary or has there been any movement to consolidate to save resources - perhaps have regional seminaries, rather than one in each state? I don't know how the Catholic seminary system works, so I'm curious.
The ideal is that each diocese has their own seminary, however this isnt always the case. The diocese of Pittsburgh for example, has its own minor(college) seminary, however they send their seminarians to either Catholic University of America's Theological College, St. Vincents college/seminary(diocese of greensburg), or North American Theological College(Rome).In the diocese of Buffalo however, thyey send their seminarians to St. Marks Seminary(diocese of Erie, PA) for minor seminary, while they have their own major seminary.
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« Reply #52 on: July 25, 2011, 10:28:52 AM »

but I think the regular Catholic system is also thriving in certain areas,  


From things I have read in the past four or five years, "regular" RCC dioceses such as Omaha, NE and Saginaw, MI have larger than usual numbers of men going to seminary than other RCC dioceses.

Does each Catholic diocese have its own seminary or has there been any movement to consolidate to save resources - perhaps have regional seminaries, rather than one in each state? I don't know how the Catholic seminary system works, so I'm curious.
The ideal is that each diocese has their own seminary, however this isnt always the case. The diocese of Pittsburgh for example, has its own minor(college) seminary, however they send their seminarians to either Catholic University of America's Theological College, St. Vincents college/seminary(diocese of greensburg), or North American Theological College(Rome).In the diocese of Buffalo however, thyey send their seminarians to St. Marks Seminary(diocese of Erie, PA) for minor seminary, while they have their own major seminary.
We used to have our own minor seminary (don't know about past that). It is now the high school and the high school is now ABQ Uptown.

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« Reply #53 on: July 25, 2011, 01:12:33 PM »

We have a seminary here--the aforementioned St. Vincent College/Seminary... Booya!!!!   



Oh wait, that doesn't help me much...  well anyway, the Steelers have training camp there, and it'll be starting soon (*crosses fingers*)... Booya!!!!
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« Reply #54 on: July 25, 2011, 04:12:35 PM »

We have a seminary here--the aforementioned St. Vincent College/Seminary... Booya!!!!   



Oh wait, that doesn't help me much...  well anyway, the Steelers have training camp there, and it'll be starting soon (*crosses fingers*)... Booya!!!!

i never realized you were so close to me, im just outside pittsburgh city limits
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« Reply #55 on: July 25, 2011, 04:15:18 PM »

We have a seminary here--the aforementioned St. Vincent College/Seminary... Booya!!!!   



Oh wait, that doesn't help me much...  well anyway, the Steelers have training camp there, and it'll be starting soon (*crosses fingers*)... Booya!!!!

i never realized you were so close to me, im just outside pittsburgh city limits

Cool, always good to have SW PAers here Smiley  I'm actually just north of Latrobe, about 4 miles from St. Vincent...
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« Reply #56 on: July 25, 2011, 04:37:02 PM »

I plan on moving back to Pittsburgh, I hope I can buy you a drink when I'm out there Justin.
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“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
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« Reply #57 on: July 25, 2011, 04:42:46 PM »

I plan on moving back to Pittsburgh, I hope I can buy you a drink when I'm out there Justin.

Just PM me if/when you move back Smiley
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Problem: John finds a spider under his bed. John eats the spider. John gets sick to his stomach.

Question: Why did John get sick?
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