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Author Topic: Any advice from converts further along...  (Read 1145 times) Average Rating: 0
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casisthename
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« on: July 11, 2011, 11:41:55 AM »

Hey folks,

So, I'm in a bit of a odd situation. My parents had not exactly followed the typical Lutheran practice with baptizing us kids. My sisters weren't baptized till the last year. However, I was baptized as a baby since I wasn't expected to live. It was just done by the clergy at the hospital I was in. Problem is they don't have a clue what denomination the clergy was and we can't find a baptismal certificate. My mama says that it was done in the name of the father and the son and the holy ghost. But she wasn't actually at the baptism. Now, I don't dispute her honesty but at the same time there's no papers and we don't know the denomination. I've not yet approached the priest about it but I think my parents will really take it to heart if it is decided that it be best to baptize me. I mean I got no idea how this will be handled. Any suggestions on how to help ease my parents worry?
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JR
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« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2011, 11:55:41 AM »

Does your mama have the baptism certificate?

If not, it does sound a bit precarious and most Lutheran baptisms are not recognised by the Roman Catholic or the Orthodox church.

and if they do recognise it they will need the Baptism certificate.

Personally I would talk to the priest in your chosen faith and church about having a full baptism.

I hope this helps

Hey folks,

So, I'm in a bit of a odd situation. My parents had not exactly followed the typical Lutheran practice with baptizing us kids. My sisters weren't baptized till the last year. However, I was baptized as a baby since I wasn't expected to live. It was just done by the clergy at the hospital I was in. Problem is they don't have a clue what denomination the clergy was and we can't find a baptismal certificate. My mama says that it was done in the name of the father and the son and the holy ghost. But she wasn't actually at the baptism. Now, I don't dispute her honesty but at the same time there's no papers and we don't know the denomination. I've not yet approached the priest about it but I think my parents will really take it to heart if it is decided that it be best to baptize me. I mean I got no idea how this will be handled. Any suggestions on how to help ease my parents worry?
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« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2011, 01:04:00 PM »

Does your mama have the baptism certificate?

If not, it does sound a bit precarious and most Lutheran baptisms are not recognised by the Roman Catholic or the Orthodox church.

and if they do recognize it they will need the Baptism certificate.

Personally I would talk to the priest in your chosen faith and church about having a full baptism.

I hope this helps

JR, I don't know what you're talking about.. I had two children baptized in the Lutheran church and their baptism was recognized by the Orthodox church.   My priest needed the dates of the baptism.  I don't recall having to provide a certificate (but my memory can be sketchy).   

casisthename: Best thing to do is the talk with the priest and tell him what happened.  Mostly likely he'll talk with his bishop to see how best to proceed.  No sense worry about what might/ might not happen.  Find out for sure.
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katherineofdixie
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« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2011, 01:08:17 PM »

Was anyone that you know at your baptism? Your father or other relatives? I have seen cases where the priest and the bishop accepted affadavits that the person received a Trinitarian baptism. If the decision is made to baptize you, perhaps explain gently to your parents that since there is no certificate or record of your baptism, the Church wants to be sure.


If not, it does sound a bit precarious and most Lutheran baptisms are not recognised by the Roman Catholic or the Orthodox church.

Er, I was baptized in the Lutheran church as a child and was received into the Orthodox Church by chrismation. (I did, however, have the original baptismal certificate.)
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« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2011, 01:14:50 PM »

Sometimes even a Roman Catholic baptism isn't recognised, it depends on the area and the Bishop of that area.

That is why I advised to speak with the priest. and that is the best advice to give as all circumstances are different.

don't you agree?



Er, I was baptized in the Lutheran church as a child and was received into the Orthodox Church by chrismation. (I did, however, have the original baptismal certificate.)

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« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2011, 01:19:18 PM »

Sometimes even a Roman Catholic baptism isn't recognised, it depends on the area and the Bishop of that area.

That is why I advised to speak with the priest. and that is the best advice to give as all circumstances are different.

don't you agree?


No, what you said is that Lutheran baptisms are not recognized by the EO church... which isn't true.  What is true is that *some* EO jurisdictions/diocese in American MAY not recognize Lutheran or Catholic baptisms.  It doesn't help to confuse or frustrate the original poster by making a blanket statement such as that.    That is why we all encouraged her to speak with her priest.
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« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2011, 01:35:48 PM »

I'm curious about something, since my husband is a Baptist by upbringing: if he ever decided to become Orthodox, would they accept his baptism? Based on what he told me, it was a full trine immersion in the name of the Holy Trinity.
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« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2011, 01:40:09 PM »

Again, it would depend on the jurisdiction and diocese.  Two of my other children were baptized in the Baptist church in the name of the Trinity as well and it was accepted by our Orthodox parish.   FWIW, my oldest daughter was accepted into a different jurisdiction from mine and her full immersion/Trinitarian baptism was not accepted by that EO jurisdiction.   
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« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2011, 09:24:41 PM »

Regardless of whether the bishop you're under will baptize or chrismate Lutherans, a certificate of baptism is absolutely necessary.

Honestly, I had serious misgivings about an Orthodox baptism and my advice to you, having been recently baptized (just this last April), is to seek Orthodox baptism. You have the added trouble of worrying your parents, and mine couldn't care less, but you will not regret being baptized in an Orthodox service. However, I have heard from many people that were chrismated who regret not opting for a full baptism.
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« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2011, 12:02:33 AM »

The other situation is, if you enter Orthodoxy via one of jurisidictions that do recognize certain non-Orthodox baptisms, and then later decide you want to join ROCOR, you would have to get baptized because they do not recognize even Roman Catholic baptisms.

There is a similar situation within Judaism, the religion of my birth. Orthodox (traditional) Judaism does not recognize any conversions apart from their own. Also, to be a Jew by their definition you must either have been born of a Halachically Jewish mother (one regarded as Jewish by Orthodox Judaism), or you have to have had an Orthodox Jewish conversion; Reform, Conservative, Reconstructionist, etc are not recognized.

I've known of cases of people who converted to Reform or another liberal brand of Judaism, who became more religious later and wanted to become Orthodox Jews, only to find they had to go through a conversion all over again.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2011, 12:04:39 AM by Xenia1918 » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2011, 12:03:23 AM »

My priest once remarked that if there is any shred of doubt that the baptism was NOT done in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, the bishop will generally err on the side of caution and direct that the catechumen be baptized.
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« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2011, 12:05:49 AM »

My priest once remarked that if there is any shred of doubt that the baptism was NOT done in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, the bishop will generally err on the side of caution and direct that the catechumen be baptized.

In Traditional Roman Catholicism that's called a conditional baptism. In Orthodox Judaism they will also do a conditional conversion, if there is no evidence or if there is a doubt the person actually had an Orthodox conversion before. Its called a conversion le'chumra, which means, to remove any doubt.
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« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2011, 12:18:09 AM »

I totally agree that it varies.  I was baptized in a very liberal Presbyterian Church, in the name of a trinity, by a female "pastor", and my Bishop said I needed no baptism to convert to Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2011, 12:45:17 AM »

Yes, ask your priest. Mine took me at my word; he did not even ask to see any certificate (though I could have produced one if requested).

As was said above, don't worry about "what ifs". Reality has enough problems of its own!

Many years! in advance
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« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2011, 01:19:52 AM »

Sometimes even a Roman Catholic baptism isn't recognised, it depends on the area and the Bishop of that area.

That is why I advised to speak with the priest. and that is the best advice to give as all circumstances are different.

don't you agree?


No, what you said is that Lutheran baptisms are not recognized by the EO church... which isn't true.  What is true is that *some* EO jurisdictions/diocese in American MAY not recognize Lutheran or Catholic baptisms.  It doesn't help to confuse or frustrate the original poster by making a blanket statement such as that.    That is why we all encouraged her to speak with her priest.

Plainly saying that any Orthodox church recognizes any non-Orthodox baptism is dangerous. Unqualified it is actually incorrect.
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« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2011, 01:51:03 AM »

The other situation is, if you enter Orthodoxy via one of jurisidictions that do recognize certain non-Orthodox baptisms, and then later decide you want to join ROCOR, you would have to get baptized because they do not recognize even Roman Catholic baptisms.

There is a similar situation within Judaism, the religion of my birth. Orthodox (traditional) Judaism does not recognize any conversions apart from their own. Also, to be a Jew by their definition you must either have been born of a Halachically Jewish mother (one regarded as Jewish by Orthodox Judaism), or you have to have had an Orthodox Jewish conversion; Reform, Conservative, Reconstructionist, etc are not recognized.

I've known of cases of people who converted to Reform or another liberal brand of Judaism, who became more religious later and wanted to become Orthodox Jews, only to find they had to go through a conversion all over again.
I was under the impression that once one is in communion with the Orthodox Churchone is in communion with her, end of story. That perhaps, a ROCOR parish somewhere may prefer that I had been re-baptized when I was received into the church in Russia (by the MP), but now that I am in communion, they would not attempt to re-baptize me,or deny me communion. Is this so?
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« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2011, 01:56:36 AM »

The other situation is, if you enter Orthodoxy via one of jurisidictions that do recognize certain non-Orthodox baptisms, and then later decide you want to join ROCOR, you would have to get baptized because they do not recognize even Roman Catholic baptisms.

There is a similar situation within Judaism, the religion of my birth. Orthodox (traditional) Judaism does not recognize any conversions apart from their own. Also, to be a Jew by their definition you must either have been born of a Halachically Jewish mother (one regarded as Jewish by Orthodox Judaism), or you have to have had an Orthodox Jewish conversion; Reform, Conservative, Reconstructionist, etc are not recognized.

I've known of cases of people who converted to Reform or another liberal brand of Judaism, who became more religious later and wanted to become Orthodox Jews, only to find they had to go through a conversion all over again.
I was under the impression that once one is in communion with the Orthodox Churchone is in communion with her, end of story. That perhaps, a ROCOR parish somewhere may prefer that I had been re-baptized when I was received into the church in Russia (by the MP), but now that I am in communion, they would not attempt to re-baptize me,or deny me communion. Is this so?

That's not what I had been led to believe, but I think we both need to find this out for certain. The Orthodox jurisdiction I'm involved with accepts RC baptisms, but eventually (when we move to western PA) I plan to join a ROCOR parish, so I need to know for sure too.
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« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2011, 04:34:48 AM »

The other situation is, if you enter Orthodoxy via one of jurisidictions that do recognize certain non-Orthodox baptisms, and then later decide you want to join ROCOR, you would have to get baptized because they do not recognize even Roman Catholic baptisms.

There is a similar situation within Judaism, the religion of my birth. Orthodox (traditional) Judaism does not recognize any conversions apart from their own. Also, to be a Jew by their definition you must either have been born of a Halachically Jewish mother (one regarded as Jewish by Orthodox Judaism), or you have to have had an Orthodox Jewish conversion; Reform, Conservative, Reconstructionist, etc are not recognized.

I've known of cases of people who converted to Reform or another liberal brand of Judaism, who became more religious later and wanted to become Orthodox Jews, only to find they had to go through a conversion all over again.
I was under the impression that once one is in communion with the Orthodox Churchone is in communion with her, end of story. That perhaps, a ROCOR parish somewhere may prefer that I had been re-baptized when I was received into the church in Russia (by the MP), but now that I am in communion, they would not attempt to re-baptize me,or deny me communion. Is this so?

Actually, I've been told that there are some jurisdictions strict enough to refuse someone communion unless they have been baptized in an Orthodox Church (Athos is the first that comes to mind).
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« Reply #18 on: July 13, 2011, 09:58:09 AM »

The other situation is, if you enter Orthodoxy via one of jurisidictions that do recognize certain non-Orthodox baptisms, and then later decide you want to join ROCOR, you would have to get baptized because they do not recognize even Roman Catholic baptisms.

There is a similar situation within Judaism, the religion of my birth. Orthodox (traditional) Judaism does not recognize any conversions apart from their own. Also, to be a Jew by their definition you must either have been born of a Halachically Jewish mother (one regarded as Jewish by Orthodox Judaism), or you have to have had an Orthodox Jewish conversion; Reform, Conservative, Reconstructionist, etc are not recognized.

I've known of cases of people who converted to Reform or another liberal brand of Judaism, who became more religious later and wanted to become Orthodox Jews, only to find they had to go through a conversion all over again.
I was under the impression that once one is in communion with the Orthodox Churchone is in communion with her, end of story. That perhaps, a ROCOR parish somewhere may prefer that I had been re-baptized when I was received into the church in Russia (by the MP), but now that I am in communion, they would not attempt to re-baptize me,or deny me communion. Is this so?

Actually, I've been told that there are some jurisdictions strict enough to refuse someone communion unless they have been baptized in an Orthodox Church (Athos is the first that comes to mind).
More input on this from anyone? Verify, or not?
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« Reply #19 on: July 13, 2011, 06:37:26 PM »

I was under the impression that once one is in communion with the Orthodox Churchone is in communion with her, end of story. That perhaps, a ROCOR parish somewhere may prefer that I had been re-baptized when I was received into the church in Russia (by the MP), but now that I am in communion, they would not attempt to re-baptize me,or deny me communion. Is this so?

Actually, I've been told that there are some jurisdictions strict enough to refuse someone communion unless they have been baptized in an Orthodox Church (Athos is the first that comes to mind).
More input on this from anyone? Verify, or not?

Well, I can confirm that ROCOR does not require those received into the Church by chrismation to then be re-baptised before receiving communion.  An example off the top of my head is Fr Seraphim (Rose), who was received by chrismation by ROCOR, and was not required to be re-baptised (even after the change in practise by the Synod).

(Also, ROCOR is a part of the Church of Russia...it would be very odd to deny communion to someone in the same local church! Smiley )
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Xenia1918
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« Reply #20 on: July 13, 2011, 06:47:12 PM »

I was under the impression that once one is in communion with the Orthodox Churchone is in communion with her, end of story. That perhaps, a ROCOR parish somewhere may prefer that I had been re-baptized when I was received into the church in Russia (by the MP), but now that I am in communion, they would not attempt to re-baptize me,or deny me communion. Is this so?

Actually, I've been told that there are some jurisdictions strict enough to refuse someone communion unless they have been baptized in an Orthodox Church (Athos is the first that comes to mind).
More input on this from anyone? Verify, or not?

Well, I can confirm that ROCOR does not require those received into the Church by chrismation to then be re-baptised before receiving communion.  An example off the top of my head is Fr Seraphim (Rose), who was received by chrismation by ROCOR, and was not required to be re-baptised (even after the change in practise by the Synod).

(Also, ROCOR is a part of the Church of Russia...it would be very odd to deny communion to someone in the same local church! Smiley )

Thank you! I appreciate knowing that! Smiley
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