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Author Topic: Sex, Mom and Dad's Sins [Frank Schaeffer]  (Read 3407 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: July 13, 2011, 07:48:03 AM »

An excerpt from what some are saying is Frank Schaeffer's best book, Sex, Mom, and God:

"You see, Dear, King David and Fran [Francis, Frank's dad] share a Very Strong Drive in That Area. At least Fran recognizes his Need." Mom paused, smiled sweetly, then added in a brisk upbeat tone, "But I don't want you to get the wrong impression; it's not that I don't enjoy being with Fran in That Way. Within a Christ-centered marriage the union of a married man and his wife is a wonderful gift. It's just that because Fran has a Daily Need, I have to go with him on every single speaking trip. I hate leaving you alone so often, even in a good cause."

To an outsider, Mom's constant citing of Bible passages like King David's Sin to "explain" Dad's failings might have seemed like a snide rebuke. Actually, it was Mom's way of defending Dad. She was placing his Sins on a high pedestal right up there with the failings of the biblical heroes. Mom was excusing Dad by saying in effect, "Even King David, that the Bible says God loved most of all, sinned terribly. He was forgiven and I forgive Fran, too. Moreover, if even King David was awful sometimes, how can Fran be perfect?"


This reminds me of when Malcolm X discovered that Elijah Muhammad had had sexual relations (and produced several children) with various young female members of the Nation of Islam. Malcolm, before he broke away from Muhammad, tried to justify Muhammad's activities by invoking King David. Of course, Francis Schaeffer never had extra-marital affairs, I presume.



« Last Edit: July 13, 2011, 07:50:03 AM by Jetavan » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2011, 01:34:41 PM »

I don't really like how Frank Schaeffer has exposed so much of his personal family life to the world, including a large number of very not good things about his parents.  It leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
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« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2011, 01:48:15 PM »

Most things about Frank Schaeffer have given me a bad impression.

Some of his insights into problems with the Protestant paradigm which he made at his time of conversion to Orthodoxy in the early 90's seemed good, but even then in many ways it seems like he was using Orthodoxy as a way to attack his past or at least as a way to express discontentment. Everything else also seems perpetually discontent, as if there hasn't been a lot of spiritual growth moving him in the right direction over the last 20 years. May God forgive me for judging him if that is what I am doing, but I am only trying to be discerning.
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« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2011, 03:17:22 PM »

An excerpt from what some are saying is Frank Schaeffer's best book, Sex, Mom, and God:

"You see, Dear, King David and Fran [Francis, Frank's dad] share a Very Strong Drive in That Area. At least Fran recognizes his Need." Mom paused, smiled sweetly, then added in a brisk upbeat tone, "But I don't want you to get the wrong impression; it's not that I don't enjoy being with Fran in That Way. Within a Christ-centered marriage the union of a married man and his wife is a wonderful gift. It's just that because Fran has a Daily Need, I have to go with him on every single speaking trip. I hate leaving you alone so often, even in a good cause."

To an outsider, Mom's constant citing of Bible passages like King David's Sin to "explain" Dad's failings might have seemed like a snide rebuke. Actually, it was Mom's way of defending Dad. She was placing his Sins on a high pedestal right up there with the failings of the biblical heroes. Mom was excusing Dad by saying in effect, "Even King David, that the Bible says God loved most of all, sinned terribly. He was forgiven and I forgive Fran, too. Moreover, if even King David was awful sometimes, how can Fran be perfect?"


This reminds me of when Malcolm X discovered that Elijah Muhammad had had sexual relations (and produced several children) with various young female members of the Nation of Islam. Malcolm, before he broke away from Muhammad, tried to justify Muhammad's activities by invoking King David. Of course, Francis Schaeffer never had extra-marital affairs, I presume.
That would seem logical, as Frankie says mom went with Fran all the time.  Seems like Frankie wants to prove Freud right for his new friends among the Huffingtonpost ilk.
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« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2011, 03:58:42 PM »

Is he still a professing Orthodox Christian?
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« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2011, 07:06:53 PM »

I heard an interview with him 1-2 years ago with Terry Gross. He came across as an agnostic to me.
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« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2011, 07:43:16 PM »

He's still Orthodox, but -- after experiencing the "joys" of a Protestant fundamentalism that demonstrated the limits of epistemological hubris -- he's grown weary of what passes for American Christianity.
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« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2011, 09:05:10 PM »

Most things about Frank Schaeffer have given me a bad impression.

Some of his insights into problems with the Protestant paradigm which he made at his time of conversion to Orthodoxy in the early 90's seemed good, but even then in many ways it seems like he was using Orthodoxy as a way to attack his past or at least as a way to express discontentment. Everything else also seems perpetually discontent, as if there hasn't been a lot of spiritual growth moving him in the right direction over the last 20 years. May God forgive me for judging him if that is what I am doing, but I am only trying to be discerning.
That's pretty much my impression; may God forgive me also.
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« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2011, 12:22:21 AM »

I am still wondering whether I should read this. Any POSITIVE recs on this board?

For the record, I read Crazy for God a few months ago. My priest recommended it to me, certainly not for Schaeffer's theology, but since Mr. Ismi and I were making the Protestant-Orthodox crossover, he thought that we would find get a lot out of Schaeffer's writings. There were some lines that certainly delivered punch and hit my at my last evangelical nerve. He made a lot of great points, but I was also unnerved about some of the personal stories he chose to tell in the book.

About halfway through the book, I visited my priest again and briefly considered asking him if Frank Schaeffer even believed in God anymore. Only God knows his heart, so I leave that judgment up to Him, but it seemed to me like he was saying, "I picked Orthodoxy because it's so spiritual and leaves a lot to mystery so I can even wake up and not believe in God some days." Sounded like a wavering agnostic/Christian to me.

Not that I certainly haven't questioned God's existence myself, but if he's trying to "sell" Orthodoxy and how at peace he felt with his conversion, he failed. Instead, I just got a whole lot of anger at his upbringing, which I understand. But I do hope he really finds peace with that, because it's like a virus. His mood infects the entire book.

But I am fascinated with his criticism of Western Protestant, especially evangelical, culture in the U.S., because I did agree with him on a lot of those points. Wondering whether his writing style and tone changed after the publication of CfG.
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« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2011, 12:43:39 AM »

I looked at his press (Regina Press), and I was going to order a few of his DVD's. Does anybody know if they are any good?
I saw his video from St Elijah's on GoogleVideo yesterday, and I was pretty impressed by his presentation "Is The Ancient Church Out of Date?"

Here is the movie I saw: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4935975257314863954

Here are his DVD's

http://www.reginaorthodoxpress.com/videos.html
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« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2011, 07:28:32 AM »

I looked at his press (Regina Press), and I was going to order a few of his DVD's. Does anybody know if they are any good?
I saw his video from St Elijah's on GoogleVideo yesterday, and I was pretty impressed by his presentation "Is The Ancient Church Out of Date?"

Here is the movie I saw: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4935975257314863954

Here are his DVD's

http://www.reginaorthodoxpress.com/videos.html

When I was first inquiring into Orthodoxy my husband and I watched Schaeffer's Journey to Orthodox video.  I thought it was quite good.  He threw a lot of good punches at the Evangelicals but I don't remember any parent bashing on his part (although it's been long enough I could have forgotten). 

I'm pretty turned off by his attitude towards his parents and his need to air their dirty laundry.  He's like someone who can't let go of his past and keeps playing the same ugly records over and over...only he's playing it in a public forum.  He appears to be a bitter man.  This is not how I would want to present Orthodoxy to my Evangelical friends and I would never recommend any of his books, for that reason.   He doesn't seem like he's a very happy person, IMHO.
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« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2014, 02:17:21 PM »

Frank Schaeffer discusses growing up with his Father and Mother, Francis and Edith Schaeffer and the lasting impact they made on the Evangelical Right in America. He carefully traces Francis Schaeffer's engagement with Christianity arguing that, rather than turning away from his parent's legacy, he has instead carried it on through his journey to Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2014, 02:26:46 PM »

Frank Schaeffer discusses growing up with his Father and Mother, Francis and Edith Schaeffer and the lasting impact they made on the Evangelical Right in America. He carefully traces Francis Schaeffer's engagement with Christianity arguing that, rather than turning away from his parent's legacy, he has instead carried it on through his journey to Orthodoxy.

This is ironic, since I was just reading the Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy.
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« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2014, 02:47:39 PM »

An excerpt from what some are saying is Frank Schaeffer's best book, Sex, Mom, and God:

"You see, Dear, King David and Fran [Francis, Frank's dad] share a Very Strong Drive in That Area. At least Fran recognizes his Need." Mom paused, smiled sweetly, then added in a brisk upbeat tone, "But I don't want you to get the wrong impression; it's not that I don't enjoy being with Fran in That Way. Within a Christ-centered marriage the union of a married man and his wife is a wonderful gift. It's just that because Fran has a Daily Need, I have to go with him on every single speaking trip. I hate leaving you alone so often, even in a good cause."

To an outsider, Mom's constant citing of Bible passages like King David's Sin to "explain" Dad's failings might have seemed like a snide rebuke. Actually, it was Mom's way of defending Dad. She was placing his Sins on a high pedestal right up there with the failings of the biblical heroes. Mom was excusing Dad by saying in effect, "Even King David, that the Bible says God loved most of all, sinned terribly. He was forgiven and I forgive Fran, too. Moreover, if even King David was awful sometimes, how can Fran be perfect?"


This reminds me of when Malcolm X discovered that Elijah Muhammad had had sexual relations (and produced several children) with various young female members of the Nation of Islam. Malcolm, before he broke away from Muhammad, tried to justify Muhammad's activities by invoking King David. Of course, Francis Schaeffer never had extra-marital affairs, I presume.
That would seem logical, as Frankie says mom went with Fran all the time.  Seems like Frankie wants to prove Freud right for his new friends among the Huffingtonpost ilk.

You realize you are the Huffington Post's target demo, right?

Anyway, it's gross. Fankie, Fran, Terry, and everything else
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« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2014, 03:00:50 PM »

An excerpt from what some are saying is Frank Schaeffer's best book, Sex, Mom, and God:

"You see, Dear, King David and Fran [Francis, Frank's dad] share a Very Strong Drive in That Area. At least Fran recognizes his Need." Mom paused, smiled sweetly, then added in a brisk upbeat tone, "But I don't want you to get the wrong impression; it's not that I don't enjoy being with Fran in That Way. Within a Christ-centered marriage the union of a married man and his wife is a wonderful gift. It's just that because Fran has a Daily Need, I have to go with him on every single speaking trip. I hate leaving you alone so often, even in a good cause."

To an outsider, Mom's constant citing of Bible passages like King David's Sin to "explain" Dad's failings might have seemed like a snide rebuke. Actually, it was Mom's way of defending Dad. She was placing his Sins on a high pedestal right up there with the failings of the biblical heroes. Mom was excusing Dad by saying in effect, "Even King David, that the Bible says God loved most of all, sinned terribly. He was forgiven and I forgive Fran, too. Moreover, if even King David was awful sometimes, how can Fran be perfect?"


This reminds me of when Malcolm X discovered that Elijah Muhammad had had sexual relations (and produced several children) with various young female members of the Nation of Islam. Malcolm, before he broke away from Muhammad, tried to justify Muhammad's activities by invoking King David. Of course, Francis Schaeffer never had extra-marital affairs, I presume.
That would seem logical, as Frankie says mom went with Fran all the time.  Seems like Frankie wants to prove Freud right for his new friends among the Huffingtonpost ilk.

You realize you are the Huffington Post's target demo, right?

Anyway, it's gross. Fankie, Fran, Terry, and everything else
Yeah, writing/talking about my parents' sex life would be [steps outside to scream].  One less thing to read.
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« Reply #15 on: February 27, 2014, 04:38:20 PM »

An excerpt from what some are saying is Frank Schaeffer's best book, Sex, Mom, and God:

"You see, Dear, King David and Fran [Francis, Frank's dad] share a Very Strong Drive in That Area. At least Fran recognizes his Need." Mom paused, smiled sweetly, then added in a brisk upbeat tone, "But I don't want you to get the wrong impression; it's not that I don't enjoy being with Fran in That Way. Within a Christ-centered marriage the union of a married man and his wife is a wonderful gift. It's just that because Fran has a Daily Need, I have to go with him on every single speaking trip. I hate leaving you alone so often, even in a good cause."

To an outsider, Mom's constant citing of Bible passages like King David's Sin to "explain" Dad's failings might have seemed like a snide rebuke. Actually, it was Mom's way of defending Dad. She was placing his Sins on a high pedestal right up there with the failings of the biblical heroes. Mom was excusing Dad by saying in effect, "Even King David, that the Bible says God loved most of all, sinned terribly. He was forgiven and I forgive Fran, too. Moreover, if even King David was awful sometimes, how can Fran be perfect?"


This reminds me of when Malcolm X discovered that Elijah Muhammad had had sexual relations (and produced several children) with various young female members of the Nation of Islam. Malcolm, before he broke away from Muhammad, tried to justify Muhammad's activities by invoking King David. Of course, Francis Schaeffer never had extra-marital affairs, I presume.
That would seem logical, as Frankie says mom went with Fran all the time.  Seems like Frankie wants to prove Freud right for his new friends among the Huffingtonpost ilk.

You realize you are the Huffington Post's target demo, right?

Anyway, it's gross. Fankie, Fran, Terry, and everything else
Yeah, writing/talking about my parents' sex life would be [steps outside to scream].  One less thing to read.
He gives a beautiful story about his Dad, after 34:00 here.
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