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Author Topic: Orthodoxy in DIXIE  (Read 3409 times) Average Rating: 0
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Bogoliubtsy
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« on: June 23, 2004, 12:09:28 AM »

Orthodoxy in DIXIE

By Father Joseph Huneycutt

I'm a Southerner. I was born and reared a Southern Baptist; educated
as an Episcopalian, and converted to Orthodox Christianity a decade
ago. Since then, I've been struggling to be Orthodox. As a missionary
priest, I've also struggled to bring others to Orthodoxy in the
South. More than anything, I've learned that I have a lot to learn.
I've also concluded that Orthodoxy, in its plethora of jurisdictions,
will have to learn some things, appreciate some things, about
Southern Culture before ever being truly successful in bringing
Southerners to the Faith.

I was reared in a small town near Charlotte, North Carolina. Growing
up, I never met a Jew, much less a Muslim. Lutherans were rare enough
in my hometown, much less Roman Catholics. Basically, we were
Baptists and Methodists, blacks and whites. I'd never even heard of
Orthodox Christianity until I was on my way to the Episcopal seminary
in the 1980's. Come to think of it, I'll bet most folks in my
hometown still have never heard of Orthodoxy.

No Orthodox jurisdiction ever sent missionaries to the South. Most
Converts have stumbled upon the Faith only after many years of
searching. If this were different, perhaps more progress would be
apparent in bridging the gap between East and South. Like St Innocent
who helped convert the natives of Alaska by "Incarnating" their
native faith thereby bringing them to Christ, would that someone had
intentionally helped the South to grow out of its native
Protestantism into the fullness of the Christian Faith. Instead, many
of the "ethnic churches" resemble Protestant churches with icons and
the assimilation, at least with church practices, has moved away from
traditional Orthodox practice toward Protestant norms. Such a vacuum
allows Converts to flounder toward the Kingdom while accumulating
various practices from the smorgasbord of Orthodoxy in America. It
also lends itself to parish and/or jurisdiction hopping in hopes of
finding the fittest vessel, the most correct iconography, the willing
guru, etc.

I have heard that the seminaries in Russia are bursting with future
priests. We have a priest shortage in America, they may soon have a
glut in Russia. It wouldn't surprise me if they sent some of those
men to this country to evangelize. That would certainly wake us from
our jurisdictional squabbling and anti-Christian stupor! Maybe our
constant judging and nitpicking would be tempered by some honest to
goodness evangelism?

Face it, the smorgasbord of Orthodox jurisdictions makes absolutely
no sense to most Converts. Finding the True Faith is encumbered by
also finding a dozen administrative bodies claiming to be really it!
I was once told by a monk "All monks are in communion with each
other." Though said in jest, very much like a tightly knit ethnic
community which fellowships within its own ethnic world, the same can
be said of Converts -- the majority of which are in the South.

We Southerners have many weaknesses. Paramount is our ingratiating
spirit. We deliberately set out to gain others' favour by winsome
actions. Hopelessly people-pleasing we are! Being "cut from this
cloth," we also have a weakness for taking a man at his word. If you
tell us that you're going to do something, more often than not, we
expect you'll do it. If you don't, there's a good chance that you'll
lose our trust, permanently. This behaviour will differ between
Southerners and Southerners and Southerners and Outsiders. Like any
ethnic group, we trust our own a while longer. Yet, to a Southerner,
duplicity appears rampant in American Orthodoxy. Arabs, Russians, and
other cultures are accustomed to hubris and other blustering within
daily discourse. In the South, we expect it of politicians. We
discourage it in decent folks. Integrity, in the South, is expected
of church leaders. Having found the True Faith we're confused by
contradictory words and actions which often emanate from the various
jurisdictional hierarchs.

When I first became Orthodox in the Antiochian jurisdiction, someone
suggested that I read a book entitled "The Arab Mind" to get a sense
of my newly adopted church culture. The book claimed that, in Arabic,
the root word for eloquence and exaggeration is the same. An Arab may
exaggerate to show machismo. For instance, a man may shout across a
street corner to another "I hate you." The other man replies, "I not
only hate you, I'm going to kill you!" The man retorts "I'm going to
kill you and your family!" Etc. These same men may later be found
sharing a friendly meal together. Words fail me in describing how
this same dialogue might have ended in the South. Put it this way,
funeral processions still stall traffic in these parts.

Contrary to outsiders' perceptions, Southerners do not put on airs.
Though we may be hospitable, friendly, and civil, what you see is
what you get. If we share openly with you, it means we trust you.
Once you break that trust, it may be irreparable. All are welcomed
here. Yet, we are easily offended. If offended, the offending party
will be cut off till reparation. Our people-pleasing nature lends
itself to over-sensitivity. It just comes with the territory. In the
South, admiration comes easy, respect is earned over time.

Like all those outside Paradise, Southerners gossip. In a region
where being idle is considered a virtue, idle talk ain't far behind!
I don't mean the kind of vindictive gossip popularized by Soap Operas
and other media. (Though we have that too.) Rather, Southerners carry
on conversations in a way that others might view as gossiping. And,
God help us, at times it is. Yet, often this is a manner of couching
subjects within an engaging tale. It's the way we talk around here.

Southerners are self-effacing. We can take criticism if it's properly
couched in civility and/or humour. For us, if direct confrontation is
necessary, things have already gone too far! Sometimes our neighbors
to the North skip all the niceties and cut right to the chase.
(Northern aggression continues.) And, since all the Orthodox
jurisdictions hail from a different culture with the "home offices"
up North, this element of cultural war persists within church
dynamics. Brutal honesty is not only unwelcome but most often
rejected in the South.

Before attending my first gathering of Clergy and Church Wardens in
the Russian Church, I was asked about the nature and agenda of the
meeting. I said, "Well, they'll probably argue and yell at each other
for a few hours and then we'll have lunch. After lunch, they'll argue
and yell some more then we'll kiss each other goodbye and go home."
I'm no prophet, but boy was I ever on the mark with that prediction!
In such a setting you can recognize the Southerner -- he's the one
with his mouth shut. If asked, were he honest, he'd say "I think you
all are crazy." But, "don't ask, don't tell" has always been policy
where I'm from. Being slightly dishonest in the name of civility is
considered a virtue.

You yell at a Southerner and it may have eternal consequences. When
we speak, all that's required of you is to listen politely until it's
your turn. We don't take kindly yelling, interruption, jeering, or
public ridicule. We may not break bread with you until there's
resolution. You don't have to agree, mind you. But, you must behave
in such a way that assures civil discussion and debate. It may be
that we take things personally. But, we operate on the assumption
that you do to. Therefore, quite selfishly, the Golden Rule applies
no matter what your rank or station.

Northerners are most often defined by their family's nation of
origin. This type of identification is foreign to the South. Here,
folks are identified by their family name and/or their religious
affiliation. I've often heard Northerners speak of someone as being
Italian, Ukrainian, German, etc. Along with this description is the
implied religion of those being described (Roman Catholic, Orthodox,
Lutheran, etc). This is not the case in the South. Here, folks are
defined by their religion: Baptist, Episcopalian, Methodist,
Charismatic. So it is that Northern Orthodox are often amazed that
Christians would intentionally convert to Eastern Orthodoxy. What an
idea! Can you convert from Italian to German?

Folks in the rural South usually attend the church nearest their
home. In the country, you'll find mostly Baptists, Methodists, and
Pentecostals. Towns will have Presbyterian and Episcopalian churches.
And, here and there, you'll find Lutheran pockets and an occasional
Roman Catholic church.  Latins and Lutherans may have a bit of a
drive or live within a "family burb." However, Presbyterian and
especially Episcopalian churches are populated with many who
have "worked their way up" to that denomination. Your particular
brand of Christianity may be a status symbol in the South.
Unfortunately, viewed from such binoculars, Orthodoxy can seem a step
down. Forgive me, but to a proper Episcopalian, Orthodoxy can seem
down right barbaric!

When expected, don't be surprised if a Southerner shows up early and
leaves late. We don't understand "Orthodox People Time." If you tell
a Southerner that something starts at 6:00 pm, he'll most likely
arrive at 5:45. We don't want to miss a thing! We're not only
unaccustomed to the Orthodox habit of being late, we find it rude and
uncivilized. Also, Southerners usually don't leave without saying
Goodbye, many times. This process of departing may take 30 minutes or
better.

Southern culture is, at least, as relevant as other forms of
ethnicity -- whether "Orthodox" or not. We Converts appreciate the
foods and festivities of our adopted culture. But, must we discard
our norms and ways and replace them with those of traditionally
Orthodox lands? Fund raising's fine, but what about tithing? Lamb's
good, but so is pork barbecue. Pascha and kollich is festive, but
that first bite of pecan pie is just as heavenly. Can such Southern
gatherings as Mother's Day, Thanksgiving, family reunions, BBQs, and
oyster roasts be "baptized" into Orthodoxy? It's too early to tell.
Orthodoxy is new to the South. And it's yet to be seen whether the
two can melt into one God-pleasing flavor.

Converts have lots of extended family and friends that remain
Protestant. Thus, most find themselves in awkward situations.
Wednesdays and Fridays may not be as difficult to negotiate as is the
Peter & Paul Fast or fasting for Easter and Christmas. I baptized a
man who, for years, had hosted the family pig-picking on July 4th. Of
course, that's often a fast day. But that was his one big family
obligation. I remember a couple that I'd chrismated and had moved
away. The next major fast to come along, I called to see how they
were doing. They, in jest I suppose, replied "Oh, we're doing fine.
We're just eating over at our [non-Orthodox] friends' each evening!"

The pendulum may swing otherwise. You've seen them: the "Orthodox
Taliban." The man grows long hair and beard, forgets how to smile.
The woman covers herself from head to toe -- her modesty smothers her
dignity. They both stop bathing. There's no visible joy in their
life. Their wrists are covered with wool knots. They eat only
broccoli; tofu is reserved for feast days. They begin shopping for a
home -- preferably a tent or a lean-to -- out in the woods, sans the
burden of electricity. These things may not be harmful in and of
themselves. Yet oftentimes, when Converts confuse such "asceticism"
with Orthodoxy, it can have dire results.

Through Catechism, reading of the Fathers, and other instruction,
Converts fashion an ideal Orthodoxy toward which to struggle. Then,
they might get to know some of the "Cradle Orthodox" only to be
turned off. This can develop into a dichotomy leading to
judgmentalism, Pharisee-ism, and a sort of Convert-Superior-Orthodoxy
which is, needless to say, far from the ideal! We must all struggle
toward the ideal in humility. Thanks to the lackadaisical piety of
some Cradles, this can present a great challenge. To the eyes of the
beginner, many Cradles seem lax in piety, dress, service attendance,
fasting, and Orthodox zeal versus ethnic identity. These can be a
great temptation.

So, what's a Southern Orthodox Convert to do? Assimilation with the
Protestant milieu is not an option. Been there, was that.
Christianity plus icons and Typicon is not the answer. Why bother?
Becoming a dirt-eating-tree-hugging Druid is not the way. I mean,
really. Then again, these options are all alive and "well" within the
Church. And that may be okay, as far as God's concerned, but it comes
close to grits without salt for a Southerner.

Thanks to the War Between the States and Reconstruction, Southerners
have a strong distrust of outside authority. As the saying
goes, "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me."
There's an underdog thread that binds us together. Yet when asked to
perform a task by those in authority, one can bet it shall be done.
We are teachable. However, all things must be in accord with proper
respect. Our experience teaches that there's virtue in losing when
done graciously. Nevertheless, we have strong suspicions regarding
authority. Those in positions of Orthodox leadership would do well to
familiarize themselves with the norms of Southern behaviour and
expectations. After all, if you are serious about evangelizing
another land, which the South definitely is, you would do no less!

This is not to say that the South should secede from the ethnic
Orthodoxy of the North. Rather, Southern Orthodoxy should be allowed
to flourish with its own personality and character with proper
hierarchical oversight. Any community that can appreciate this and
encourage Southerners toward the Kingdom within their own Southern
culture will do well in making solid Converts to the Faith in Dixie.

Father Joseph Huneycutt is pastor of St Raphael Orthodox Church in
Hendersonville, NC and is the author of the "blog"
titled, "Orthodixie"

visit him at http://southern-orthodoxy.blogspot.com/
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« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2004, 12:28:46 AM »

kudos to Father Joseph!

A fascinating, insightful, and comprehensive essay!

(Although, as a "Moun'en Man" of Southern Appalachia, I would suggest that there are many "Souths", just as there are many "Russias", etc. ...)

These thoughts are much appreciated, though, by another Southern convert ...

    "We read to know that we are not alone" - C.S. Lewis

There is much to ponder, reflect upon, ruminate, and inwardly digest in this post -

Thanks for sharing it!
« Last Edit: June 23, 2004, 01:02:21 AM by Rustaveli » Logged
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« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2004, 12:56:42 AM »

Uhh...Rustaveli, Bogliubtsky is not Fr. Joseph Huneycutt, he just posted an article by Fr. Joseph.   I believe that Fr. Joseph's email is Orthodixie@aol.com if you'd like to contact him though.
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« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2004, 01:00:28 AM »

... ooops.

I soooo[/b] have trouble keeping up with things after all of these new-fangled changes! Wink

Thanx 4 tha' tip!

So, what's this line o' thought all about then?

(... anyone...)?
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« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2004, 01:05:15 AM »

I think it's more of a Stream of Consciousness.  Smiley
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« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2004, 01:08:12 AM »

those.. are ... good...

- James Joyce (paraphrased, of course...)

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« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2004, 01:14:42 AM »

Well I do declare.....

that was a wonderful and inspirign read.  I have said it before, I'm saying it now, and I'll likely say it many more times;  IMHO, the only region of this country with the exception of Alaska that has a true hope of valid inculturation into the Orthodox Faith is the American South, including the eastern half of Oklahoma.  

Joe Zollars
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« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2004, 01:26:34 AM »

Very interesting essay, I am sure Joe enjoyed it, ah it looks like he did!
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« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2004, 11:05:53 AM »

Topic Split..

see Literature.
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« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2004, 01:17:06 PM »

woo-hoo thanks for splittin  it Roberto!

Joe Zollars
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« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2004, 03:46:52 PM »

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Wow; after reading this article, I really feel like I should move to the US in the south somewhere. If a good deal of people in the south actually act as the author describes, then I think I've found my perfect match  Smiley . Now, if only there were a seminary down there......

In peace,

-Justin
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« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2004, 05:25:13 PM »

Come on Down!  I'm sure we can work something out if we get enough of an Orthodox presence in Dixie.  Plust the more Orthodox we have hear means the more Southerns exposed to it, and the more converts.

Joe Zollars
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« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2004, 05:25:45 PM »

Maybe we can get St. Vlad's to move south. Wink

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« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2004, 12:16:16 PM »

I really like this essay by Fr. Hunycutt I have pondered many of these things. There are some larger issues implied here beyond just the South...GǪ.In the early years of the 21st Century, there are two patterns emerging in the Orthodox church in  America. The first is a movement towards “Americanization” (the Protestant pattern alluded to by Fr. Hunycutt) The Second is a continuation of the Orthodoxy of the “Diaspora,”  or  an ethnic Orthodoxy which reflects the cultural inheritance of those who brought the faith here.  This split has stifled the spread of Orthodoxy, and caused numernour battles over every issue from clerical beards to pews to self rule. Often, the forces of Americanization  have been those of progressivism and relativism. At their worst, the forces of ethnic orthodoxy have been those of  sectarianism. Unless there is a radical change over the next few years, I think three future scenarios in the Church are possible. The first would be the continuation of Diaspora Orthodoxy through continued immigration from traditional Orthodox lands, In this scenario, the duality of the immigrant experience would probably continue the tension between the two spirits . The second is for the forces of progressivism to remake Orthodoxy from the One True Faith into a denomination among many. The third is for the Church to  separate itself further from the society around it and become more sectarian in the process.

Diaspora Orthodoxy has NOT been a bad thing. In fact, ethnic Orthodoxy has been often been  an island of sanity in a increasingly insane dominant culture. However, The history of this nation will show that it is often  difficult  for these islands of sanity to effect the evangelization to which we are all called. Rather they become curiosities, of which the best example are the Amish and Old Order Mennonites of my own native region. People from all over America flock to Amish settlements in Pennsylvnia and Ohio. They may express a wistful envy for the simple lifeways, they may buy local foods and handicrafts, but they take away almost nothing of the Christian traditions of these people. Few, if any, would realistically seek conversion to the Mennonite faith.  A similar future could be seen for Orthodoxy. Seekers may visit the monasteries, buy beautiful icons, and still know nothing about salvation or be brought closer to the Truth.

I believe we are very strongly called to trod the narrow way so well defined by Thomas Hopko, as neither relativists or sectarians. We are also called to baptize and make believers of all nations. To do this successfully in 21st Century America will require scenarios for the Orthodox Church beyond those outlined above. The church has always succeeded whenever it not only converts individuals, but establishes a full way of life for them to live. In short, not only individuals, but cultures must be baptized. I am really not sure how we can do this and I don't see much direction out there......


Crummy Choices-

Crummy Choice 1 stay ethnic and continue to be  irrelevant to a dominant culture that needs redemption

Crummy choice 2. Become non ethnic and probably begin to look like Eastern Rite Episcopalians

Sorry if this is a long rant, but I had a lot of this bottled up for a while!
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« Reply #14 on: June 24, 2004, 12:45:50 PM »

I thought this was a great article!  I'm from Louisiana, and I can honestly relate to almost everything that was written.  

I think one of my biggest stumbling blocks in my decision on whether or not to convert (as shallow as this may sound and I can't believe I'm actually admitting this) has to do with how I'm ever going to incorporate Orthodoxy into my culture and way of life.  My Southern Baptist and Charismatic relatives are NOT going to be able to understand my new found faith easily at all.  Even the much more western Roman Catholic faith (which is what my husband is) blows their minds, so something out of the East will turn everything on its end.

On the other hand, we have to find a happy medium (IMHO) between the cultures because we don't want to take the "flavor" out of The Church.  America can make things too generic at times.
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« Reply #15 on: June 24, 2004, 01:18:24 PM »

samlltowngl,
Culture is not a shallow stumbling block, It affects us in ways we dont even realize. One one level, the church never asks us to give up our culture, but there are real diffculties on a day to day basis (For a personal example Every traditional rural Pennsylvania recipe  uses milk eggs or butter! I grew up pouring milk on EVERYTHING-makes my wife sick) .

On the other hand, the value in existing with and sometimes in other cultures is it helps us be cultural critics (especially of our own!!), and measure our spritual progress in ways we could not other wise seeing a different way.  
 
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« Reply #16 on: June 24, 2004, 01:59:44 PM »

I really like this essay by Fr. Hunycutt I have pondered many of these things. There are some larger issues implied here beyond just the South...GǪ.In the early years of the 21st Century, there are two patterns emerging in the Orthodox church in  America. The first is a movement towards “Americanization” (the Protestant pattern alluded to by Fr. Hunycutt) The Second is a continuation of the Orthodoxy of the “Diaspora,”  or  an ethnic Orthodoxy which reflects the cultural inheritance of those who brought the faith here.  
Etc...


Very good points Spiros. Though it may be difficult, between 1 and 2 is a good place to find ourselves.
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« Reply #17 on: June 24, 2004, 02:54:10 PM »

Eastern Rite Episcopalians

These actually exist?
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« Reply #18 on: June 24, 2004, 03:00:28 PM »

There are no Eastern Rite Episcopalians to my knowledge, but if we follow a path of too much cultural assimilation with the dominent American culture, that may where we could head. Preserve the beauty and "look", but lose (or break) the moral rudder.



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« Reply #19 on: June 24, 2004, 10:15:45 PM »

I really like this essay by Fr. Hunycutt I have pondered many of these things. There are some larger issues implied here beyond just the South...GǪ.In the early years of the 21st Century, there are two patterns emerging in the Orthodox church in  America. The first is a movement towards “Americanization” (the Protestant pattern alluded to by Fr. Hunycutt) The Second is a continuation of the Orthodoxy of the “Diaspora,”  or  an ethnic Orthodoxy which reflects the cultural inheritance of those who brought the faith here.  This split has stifled the spread of Orthodoxy, and caused numernour battles over every issue from clerical beards to pews to self rule. Often, the forces of Americanization  have been those of progressivism and relativism. At their worst, the forces of ethnic orthodoxy have been those of  sectarianism. Unless there is a radical change over the next few years, I think three future scenarios in the Church are possible. The first would be the continuation of Diaspora Orthodoxy through continued immigration from traditional Orthodox lands, In this scenario, the duality of the immigrant experience would probably continue the tension between the two spirits . The second is for the forces of progressivism to remake Orthodoxy from the One True Faith into a denomination among many. The third is for the Church to  separate itself further from the society around it and become more sectarian in the process.

Diaspora Orthodoxy has NOT been a bad thing. In fact, ethnic Orthodoxy has been often been  an island of sanity in a increasingly insane dominant culture. However, The history of this nation will show that it is often  difficult  for these islands of sanity to effect the evangelization to which we are all called. Rather they become curiosities, of which the best example are the Amish and Old Order Mennonites of my own native region. People from all over America flock to Amish settlements in Pennsylvnia and Ohio. They may express a wistful envy for the simple lifeways, they may buy local foods and handicrafts, but they take away almost nothing of the Christian traditions of these people. Few, if any, would realistically seek conversion to the Mennonite faith.  A similar future could be seen for Orthodoxy. Seekers may visit the monasteries, buy beautiful icons, and still know nothing about salvation or be brought closer to the Truth.

I believe we are very strongly called to trod the narrow way so well defined by Thomas Hopko, as neither relativists or sectarians. We are also called to baptize and make believers of all nations. To do this successfully in 21st Century America will require scenarios for the Orthodox Church beyond those outlined above. The church has always succeeded whenever it not only converts individuals, but establishes a full way of life for them to live. In short, not only individuals, but cultures must be baptized. I am really not sure how we can do this and I don't see much direction out there......


Crummy Choices-

Crummy Choice 1 stay ethnic and continue to be  irrelevant to a dominant culture that needs redemption

Crummy choice 2. Become non ethnic and probably begin to look like Eastern Rite Episcopalians

Sorry if this is a long rant, but I had a lot of this bottled up for a while!

Very Excellent points Spyros, but I do think it is possible to have a genuine baptism of American Culture, at least the Southern Culture.  I do not think this because of Fr. Joseph's article but rather as a long time personal opinion of mine.   The south seems to me to be the last bastion of Christian Culture (other than the old order Anabaptists) in this country.

Joe Zollars
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« Reply #20 on: June 24, 2004, 10:18:21 PM »

there is at least one "easter" rite ECUSA parish in CA.

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« Reply #21 on: June 24, 2004, 11:55:21 PM »

JZ wrote<The south seems to me to be the last bastion of Christian Culture (other than the old order Anabaptists) in this country.>

I dunno JZ, the South today looks pretty much like the rest of the Country..........
Big suburbs, fascination with Sex and Money  Sad

I know there are rural/small town islands in the south that could still be part of Christendom, but these are everywhere. why not regard  rural Ohio or PA, as a "bastion" too?

The problem is that I see is a bunch of islands (That you call bastions)  All  of these bastions, north south or midwest, are either irrelevant to  or considered curiousities by the dominant American Culture

PS EASTERN RITE EPISCOPALIANS?? Tongue
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« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2004, 07:30:02 AM »

well I can see your point Spiros, and a lot of my position comes from having grown up in the Rural South.  My experience with such was so great that I have determined that not only will my kids be raised in that environment but I also won't even marry a woman lest she can either sing/whistle Dixie or play it on a short list of acceptable instruments (Hammer Dulcemer, Fiddle, Banjo, Saxophone).  

However I can also see your point as to rural areas in other parts of the country.  However personally I feel the south still has this as part of hte dominant culture.  Yes Atlanta is a den of Iniquity and personally is no longer part of hte Southern Culture.  The same for New Orleans.  But lets also realize that 95% of the south is Rural area.

RE Eastern Rite Episcopaleans, there is at least one group of them out in CA that take a hodge podge from this at that source to create some sort of Eastern Rite mess.  They got women clergy and the whole 9 yards of liberal PECUSAisms too.  I think their name is St. Gregory's or something like that.
 
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« Reply #23 on: June 25, 2004, 04:40:53 PM »

Quote
well I can see your point Spiros, and a lot of my position comes from having grown up in the Rural South.  My experience with such was so great that I have determined that not only will my kids be raised in that environment but I also won't even marry a woman lest she can either sing/whistle Dixie or play it on a short list of acceptable instruments (Hammer Dulcemer, Fiddle, Banjo, Saxophone).  

Right on Mr. Zollars!!!! I agree with your sentiments. I'm hoping to get out of California soon & move to springfield missouri (where Orthodox Bagpiper lives). I'm so tired of the long commutes to work, traffic,  smog, overpopulation, & I can't forget all the liberals.

Quote
However I can also see your point as to rural areas in other parts of the country.  However personally I feel the south still has this as part of hte dominant culture.  Yes Atlanta is a den of Iniquity and personally is no longer part of hte Southern Culture.  The same for New Orleans.  But lets also realize that 95% of the south is Rural area.

Don't they call Atlanta the "new south" lol. I've always been somewhat interested by southern culture & history somewhat. I have a bunch of tapes with diiferent people giving lectures on diiferent topics relating to the south. I think it was maybe put out by the league of the south, but not sure. Anyways, it's been awhile since I've listened to any of them, but they are really good.
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« Reply #24 on: June 25, 2004, 05:10:50 PM »

well I can see your point Spiros, and a lot of my position comes from having grown up in the Rural South.  My experience with such was so great that I have determined that not only will my kids be raised in that environment but I also won't even marry a woman lest she can either sing/whistle Dixie or play it on a short list of acceptable instruments (Hammer Dulcemer, Fiddle, Banjo, Saxophone).  

However I can also see your point as to rural areas in other parts of the country.  However personally I feel the south still has this as part of hte dominant culture.  Yes Atlanta is a den of Iniquity and personally is no longer part of hte Southern Culture.  The same for New Orleans.  But lets also realize that 95% of the south is Rural area.

RE Eastern Rite Episcopaleans, there is at least one group of them out in CA that take a hodge podge from this at that source to create some sort of Eastern Rite mess.  They got women clergy and the whole 9 yards of liberal PECUSAisms too.  I think their name is St. Gregory's or something like that.
 
Joe Zollars

I guess you guys mean this place.  I had no idea that it was actually supposed to be "Eastern Rite".

I was there back during Lent on a Fri night for a concert by the Baroque Choral Guild, the Rachmaninoff Vigil.  Interesting building.  Besides the iconography, they have all of these Eritrean Crosses - not that Eritreans go to the church, but because some rich parishoner likes them.   Roll Eyes  Anyways, some of the iconography actually doesn't look to bad.  And there is a bunch of it that is just so blasphemous from an Orthodox pov.  For example, A bear is dancing while holding hands with St. Seraphim, who is holding hands with Ganhdi, who is holding hands with Martin Luther, who is holding hands with...(any "good" person in history).  The most polite way to put it would be "interesting".
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« Reply #25 on: June 25, 2004, 11:16:29 PM »

Thanks for sharing Elisha............only my skin is now crawling..........  Tongue
It is really creepy seeing pictures rich white urbanites act multi-cultural. I did not have the courage to open the Icons link.. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #26 on: June 25, 2004, 11:46:58 PM »

"Jesus leads the resurrection dance on the wall." Oh my. Embarrassed

"Read 'Jesus Wants to Dance with You.'" Oh my again.  Huh

The outfits (can't call em vestments) these "Presiders" are wearing are atrocious.

"The Presider and Deacons lift the Gifts, turning around: The Gifts of God for the People of God. Holy things for holy people.

The people respond: One is holy, one is Lord. Jesus Christ, to the glory of God, our Mothering Father. Amen."

Ohhh my. It hurts my heart to imagine them singing/saying this in their "liturgy." :'(

Queen Elizabeth is painted on their walls, dancing.  Along with Malcolm X. Oh my oh my oh my. Shocked

Okay I've closed the the St. Gregory's webpage.  

I was oddly fascinated in a grotesque way, sort of how it's hard not to look at a car accident.

These people need to be evangelized.  Badly.

Forgive my inconsequential sound byte here. I'm done. Smiley
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« Reply #27 on: June 26, 2004, 01:55:13 AM »

Quote
Jesus leads the resurrection dance on the wall." Oh my.
"Read 'Jesus Wants to Dance with You.'" Oh my again.
The outfits (can't call em vestments) these "Presiders" are wearing are atrocious.
"The Presider and Deacons lift the Gifts, turning around: The Gifts of God for the People of God. Holy things for holy people.
The people respond: One is holy, one is Lord. Jesus Christ, to the glory of God, our Mothering Father. Amen."
Ohhh my. It hurts my heart to imagine them singing/saying this in their "liturgy."
Queen Elizabeth is painted on their walls, dancing.  Along with Malcolm X. Oh my oh my oh my.
Okay I've closed the the St. Gregory's webpage.
I was oddly fascinated in a grotesque way, sort of how it's hard not to look at a car accident.
These people need to be evangelized.  Badly.
Forgive my inconsequential sound byte here. I'm done.

Nice......Real Nice....LoL!!!!!!!!
Well, we all need to be "sensitive" to other people's needs right??? I mean, who cares about trashing the liturgy & holy icons as long as it uplifts us in our hearts. You know, God meant everything to be focused on our selfish needs & wants eh.....so who cares if we twist a little here & there, as long as were all one big happy village, isn't that what counts?Huh

Maybe this would fit perfectly with the new "gay liturgy" they have just created up in Vermont now. It was a great thing seeing church & state coming togethor in Vermont for such a noble purpose. We all know that the state knows what's best for the church, especially those north eastern liberals who are so much more enlightened that the rest of us who are still stuck in the middle ages....
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