Author Topic: Scriptures reference to the veil over the eyes of most Jews  (Read 3294 times)

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Offline Xenia1918

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Scripture says that God has blinded most Jews to the truth of Christ until the fulness of the Gentiles has come in.

Does this mean that God deliberately blinded them even though to die without Christ means the loss of heaven?

This question has bothered me for a long time. What is the Orthodox view on this?
"O God, enlarge within us the sense of fellowship with all living things, our brothers the animals to whom Thou gavest the earth as their home in common with us..." (from the Prayer of St Basil the Great)

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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Scriptures reference to the veil over the eyes of most Jews
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2011, 07:09:58 PM »
Scripture says that God has blinded most Jews to the truth of Christ until the fulness of the Gentiles has come in.

Does this mean that God deliberately blinded them even though to die without Christ means the loss of heaven?

This question has bothered me for a long time. What is the Orthodox view on this?
The problem of the Jews (and I have Hebrew ancestry) is that they insist on reading the NT in the light of the OT, instead of reading the OT in the light of the NT.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Xenia1918

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Re: Scriptures reference to the veil over the eyes of most Jews
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2011, 07:29:09 PM »
Scripture says that God has blinded most Jews to the truth of Christ until the fulness of the Gentiles has come in.

Does this mean that God deliberately blinded them even though to die without Christ means the loss of heaven?

This question has bothered me for a long time. What is the Orthodox view on this?
The problem of the Jews (and I have Hebrew ancestry) is that they insist on reading the NT in the light of the OT, instead of reading the OT in the light of the NT.

I agree, but my question is: why would God purposely blind their eyes to the Truth and allow them to go to Hell?
"O God, enlarge within us the sense of fellowship with all living things, our brothers the animals to whom Thou gavest the earth as their home in common with us..." (from the Prayer of St Basil the Great)

REAL RC: http://www.traditionalmass.org
REAL OC: http://www.orthodoxinfo.com

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Scriptures reference to the veil over the eyes of most Jews
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2011, 07:41:19 PM »
Scripture says that God has blinded most Jews to the truth of Christ until the fulness of the Gentiles has come in.

Does this mean that God deliberately blinded them even though to die without Christ means the loss of heaven?

This question has bothered me for a long time. What is the Orthodox view on this?
The problem of the Jews (and I have Hebrew ancestry) is that they insist on reading the NT in the light of the OT, instead of reading the OT in the light of the NT.

I agree, but my question is: why would God purposely blind their eyes to the Truth and allow them to go to Hell?
Who said God purposely blinded them?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Philoumenos

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Re: Scriptures reference to the veil over the eyes of most Jews
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2011, 07:42:55 PM »
I think you're still reading it from a 'Jewish' POV though.

Here's the verse in question:

"Οὐ γὰρ θέλω ὑμᾶς ἀγνοεῖν, ἀδελφοί, τὸ μυστήριον τοῦτο, ἵνα μὴ ἦτε παρ' ἑαυτοῖς φρόνιμοι, ὅτι πώρωσις ἀπὸ μέρους τῷ Ἰσραὴλ γέγονεν ἄχρις οὗ τὸ πλήρωμα τῶν ἐθνῶν εἰσέλθῃ,"
 
"For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in"
- Romans 11:25

Ἰσραὴλ - not Εβραίοι, not Ιουδαίους.

Why do you assume that 'Israel' = 'Jews'? The first time 'Jews' are mentioned in the Bible, they are at war with Israel.

Israel is composed of those who accept & obey Jesus as Christ. A physical descendant of Jacob is not an Israelite unless he accepts Christ (same as the rest of us). The Old Testament faithful of Israel all looked to and accepted Christ in Hades. Israel is the Church.

Also the word which has been translated here into English as 'Gentiles' means simply 'Nations'.

So blindness has happened in part to Israel until the fullness of the Nations has come in.

Well - when is that? What is the "fullness of the Nations"? Fullness of the Nations has come in where? Into Israel; into the Church? Or into the land; into Jerusalem after the destruction of the Temple and the expulsion of the Judeans? How are we supposed to know when the fullness of the Nations has come in?

Perhaps it's already happened?
« Last Edit: July 12, 2011, 07:44:35 PM by Philoumenos »
“If my sons did not want war, there would be none.” - Gutle Schnapper, wife of Mayer Amschel Rothschild

"The individual is handicapped by coming face-to-face with a conspiracy so monstrous he cannot believe it exists." - J. Edgar Hoover

Offline Xenia1918

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Re: Scriptures reference to the veil over the eyes of most Jews
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2011, 08:15:53 PM »
If the verse says that "blindness has happened" until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in, the reader is led to believe that it is God who has done the blinding, because it sounds as if its part of a Divine plan.

Jews=Israelites is not true then? The terms are used interchangeably in the NT.
"O God, enlarge within us the sense of fellowship with all living things, our brothers the animals to whom Thou gavest the earth as their home in common with us..." (from the Prayer of St Basil the Great)

REAL RC: http://www.traditionalmass.org
REAL OC: http://www.orthodoxinfo.com

Offline Philoumenos

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Re: Scriptures reference to the veil over the eyes of most Jews
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2011, 08:29:25 PM »
If the verse says that "blindness has happened" until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, the reader is led to believe that it is God who has done the blinding, because it sounds as if its part of a Divine plan.

Jews=Israelites is not true then? The terms are used interchangeably in the NT.

Not in my understanding.

The terms are used interchangeably in our society... but this is an error in my estimation.
“If my sons did not want war, there would be none.” - Gutle Schnapper, wife of Mayer Amschel Rothschild

"The individual is handicapped by coming face-to-face with a conspiracy so monstrous he cannot believe it exists." - J. Edgar Hoover