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primuspilus
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« on: July 11, 2011, 04:50:32 PM »

I've seen on here lately, alot of references to ACOE. What is this? Explanation is also requested please.

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« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2011, 04:56:32 PM »

Assyrian Church of the East
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_church
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« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2011, 04:59:21 PM »

Ok, that forms another question....and I would like to note, this is simply a question out of ignorance, I am not throwing accusations. how can these churches who break away from the Orthodox Church, claim to be the original? (RC, ACOE, OO, etc)? I fail to understand that.

primuspilus
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« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2011, 05:17:10 PM »

They all rightly view their churches as having been part of the original Church, but they believe that theirs is the true Church, and that the others broke off from it (OO being a bit of an exception, as they have affirmed that EO's are still Orthodox).  Some claims are more compelling than others.
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« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2011, 06:22:20 PM »

Ok, that forms another question....and I would like to note, this is simply a question out of ignorance, I am not throwing accusations. how can these churches who break away from the Orthodox Church, claim to be the original? (RC, ACOE, OO, etc)? I fail to understand that.

primuspilus

They all claim to be based on continuing with the tradition that they have received and maintained some form of succession of their bishops.
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« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2011, 07:06:53 PM »

Ok, that forms another question....and I would like to note, this is simply a question out of ignorance, I am not throwing accusations. how can these churches who break away from the Orthodox Church, claim to be the original? (RC, ACOE, OO, etc)? I fail to understand that.

primuspilus

I don't know what the ACoE and OO can say, but we Catholics claim to be the original because we are! The ACoE and the OO broke aways from us in the 5th century, the EO in the 15th century, and the Protestants in the 16th century.
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« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2011, 10:25:59 PM »

It's in my understanding that most Assyrians today belong to the Catholic Chaldean rite and that only a dwindling number are still affiliated with the Church of the East.  There is also some breakway Assyrian nationalist Church that was created in the past decade and tries to unite all Assyrians into one ethno national Religion by combining different elements of East and West Syriac tradition.  I don't know much about the latter group other then this.
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« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2011, 10:59:53 AM »

Quote
we Catholics claim to be the original because we are

I doubt all would agree. I dont, and here is my logic.

You have 1 group called A. Some A's differ and leave the group. Those that left say they are A and all others are now B. Would not those that left not be "B's"? Again, I am not attacking anyone, I just dont get "it".
primuspilus
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« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2011, 11:36:14 AM »

Quote
we Catholics claim to be the original because we are

I doubt all would agree. I dont, and here is my logic.

You have 1 group called A. Some A's differ and leave the group. Those that left say they are A and all others are now B. Would not those that left not be "B's"? Again, I am not attacking anyone, I just dont get "it".
primuspilus

They think they are A's and we are B's.
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« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2011, 12:43:41 PM »

But thats the thing. The Schism of 1054 had roots in what RC's believed that was different from the original EO teachings. So how can the RC's say that? Last time I checked the RC's added the filioque, not the EO, so to me, that would constitute a separation from what EO taught since the beginning.....so, an education in this would be appreciated.

primuspilus
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« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2011, 12:54:25 PM »

Quote
we Catholics claim to be the original because we are

I doubt all would agree. I dont, and here is my logic.

You have 1 group called A. Some A's differ and leave the group. Those that left say they are A and all others are now B. Would not those that left not be "B's"? Again, I am not attacking anyone, I just dont get "it".
primuspilus

Exactly. Those that left -- in particular, the Oriental Orthodox and the Eastern Orthodox -- are free to say that they are "A", but that doesn't change the fact that they are "B".
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« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2011, 01:36:54 PM »

Quote
Those that left -- in particular, the Oriental Orthodox and the Eastern Orthodox -- are free to say that they are "A", but that doesn't change the fact that they are "B".

The EO would say, and do, that RC's left because the RC embraced beliefs different than those since the beginning of the church. i mean no offense, but just saying "they left" dosent really prove they did. Like I said, I just dont get it  Huh

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« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2011, 02:43:09 PM »

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Those that left -- in particular, the Oriental Orthodox and the Eastern Orthodox -- are free to say that they are "A", but that doesn't change the fact that they are "B".

The EO would say, and do, that RC's left because the RC embraced beliefs different than those since the beginning of the church. i mean no offense, but just saying "they left" dosent really prove they did. Like I said, I just dont get it  Huh

primuspilus

Quite right. The initiative for the split was clearly on the part of the RC's. They left, not the other way around.
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« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2011, 02:53:30 PM »

Ok, that forms another question....and I would like to note, this is simply a question out of ignorance, I am not throwing accusations. how can these churches who break away from the Orthodox Church, claim to be the original? (RC, ACOE, OO, etc)? I fail to understand that.

primuspilus

I don't know what the ACoE and OO can say, but we Catholics claim to be the original because we are! The ACoE and the OO broke aways from us in the 5th century, the EO in the 15th century, and the Protestants in the 16th century.

I guess that moderator should intervene here. If you claim RC to be the original you need to give reasons why. And stop with this because "I said so".

By the way, it's my first post on this forum. Hello everyone!
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« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2011, 04:56:25 PM »

Ok, that forms another question....and I would like to note, this is simply a question out of ignorance, I am not throwing accusations. how can these churches who break away from the Orthodox Church, claim to be the original? (RC, ACOE, OO, etc)? I fail to understand that.

primuspilus

I don't know what the ACoE and OO can say, but we Catholics claim to be the original because we are! The ACoE and the OO broke aways from us in the 5th century, the EO in the 15th century, and the Protestants in the 16th century.

I guess that moderator should intervene here. If you claim RC to be the original you need to give reasons why. And stop with this because "I said so".

By the way, it's my first post on this forum. Hello everyone!

In this part of the forum it's OK. If you have doubts, use the 'report' function.

Welcome! Witamy!

Quote
Those that left -- in particular, the Oriental Orthodox and the Eastern Orthodox -- are free to say that they are "A", but that doesn't change the fact that they are "B".

The EO would say, and do, that RC's left because the RC embraced beliefs different than those since the beginning of the church. i mean no offense, but just saying "they left" dosent really prove they did. Like I said, I just dont get it  Huh

primuspilus

According to them, we were those, who left.
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« Reply #15 on: July 12, 2011, 05:02:26 PM »

Quote
Those that left -- in particular, the Oriental Orthodox and the Eastern Orthodox -- are free to say that they are "A", but that doesn't change the fact that they are "B".

The EO would say, and do, that RC's left because the RC embraced beliefs different than those since the beginning of the church. i mean no offense, but just saying "they left" dosent really prove they did. Like I said, I just dont get it  Huh

primuspilus

Why don't you tell us what it is that you don't get? Are you surprised that disagreements (e.g. who left whom) between Catholics and Orthodox exist?
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« Reply #16 on: July 12, 2011, 05:05:36 PM »

And stop with this because "I said so".

I don't know if you're referring to me or someone else; but either way, please quote the because-I-said-so post.

By the way, it's my first post on this forum. Hello everyone!

Hello to you too!
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« Reply #17 on: July 12, 2011, 05:23:39 PM »


I don't know if you're referring to me or someone else; but either way, please quote the because-I-said-so post.


Please, be honest to yourself. You know what I meant. No matter who you are (Orthodox, Catholic, Atheist etc.) I don't like someone saying "because we are", "because I said so", "because it's my Church's teaching". We all know position of your Church, please give us more explenation. That's the way Forum should work (at least in my opinion).  When I approach someone with different beliefs I always try to explain my position, otherwise I wouldn't engage in discussion.

P.S. Sorry for my English, still learning. 
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« Reply #18 on: July 12, 2011, 11:14:58 PM »


I don't know if you're referring to me or someone else; but either way, please quote the because-I-said-so post.


Please, be honest to yourself. You know what I meant. No matter who you are (Orthodox, Catholic, Atheist etc.) I don't like someone saying "because we are", "because I said so", "because it's my Church's teaching". We all know position of your Church, please give us more explenation. That's the way Forum should work (at least in my opinion).  When I approach someone with different beliefs I always try to explain my position, otherwise I wouldn't engage in discussion.

P.S. Sorry for my English, still learning. 

This is getting pretty tiresome. You should read a little more carefully, noting the question I was responding to:

Ok, that forms another question....and I would like to note, this is simply a question out of ignorance, I am not throwing accusations. how can these churches who break away from the Orthodox Church, claim to be the original? (RC, ACOE, OO, etc)? I fail to understand that.

primuspilus

I don't know what the ACoE and OO can say, but we Catholics claim to be the original because we are! The ACoE and the OO broke aways from us in the 5th century, the EO in the 15th century, and the Protestants in the 16th century.

How could I respond to the question "how can these churches who break away from the Orthodox Church, claim to be the original? (RC, ACOE, OO, etc)?" without pointing out that the question itself is wrong? No doubt you would want me to say "Here, I'll explain to you how we claim to be the original, even though we broke away from the Orthodox Church ... " :rolleyes:
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« Reply #19 on: July 13, 2011, 04:27:22 AM »

How could I respond to the question "how can these churches who break away from the Orthodox Church, claim to be the original? (RC, ACOE, OO, etc)?" without pointing out that the question itself is wrong? No doubt you would want me to say "Here, I'll explain to you how we claim to be the original, even though we broke away from the Orthodox Church ... " :rolleyes:

Since I am neither Catholic or Orthodox I don't have any strong opinion who broke with who. Anyway this guy was asking an Orthodox member and thats why he put it that way. It's obvious from the context. If you desagree, you should just said: if you want to know Catholic perspective I would love to help you.
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« Reply #20 on: July 13, 2011, 04:40:01 AM »

Ok, that forms another question....and I would like to note, this is simply a question out of ignorance, I am not throwing accusations. how can these churches who break away from the Orthodox Church, claim to be the original? (RC, ACOE, OO, etc)? I fail to understand that.

primuspilus

"Break away"?

Which party is the one that broke away is debated.

They each claim to be the party that was broken away from.
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« Reply #21 on: July 13, 2011, 04:41:37 AM »

but they believe that theirs is the true Church, and that the others broke off from it (OO being a bit of an exception, as they have affirmed that EO's are still Orthodox).

Don't generalize. There are plenty of OO who believe that they are the original Church of Christ and that you fell away from them.
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« Reply #22 on: July 13, 2011, 04:43:13 AM »

It's in my understanding that most Assyrians today belong to the Catholic Chaldean rite and that only a dwindling number are still affiliated with the Church of the East.

That is my understanding as well, with the ratio being about 3 to 1.

There is also some breakway Assyrian nationalist Church that was created in the past decade and tries to unite all Assyrians into one ethno national Religion by combining different elements of East and West Syriac tradition.  I don't know much about the latter group other then this.

I've never heard of them.
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« Reply #23 on: July 13, 2011, 04:43:52 AM »

Quote
we Catholics claim to be the original because we are

I doubt all would agree. I dont, and here is my logic.

You have 1 group called A. Some A's differ and leave the group. Those that left say they are A and all others are now B. Would not those that left not be "B's"? Again, I am not attacking anyone, I just dont get "it".
primuspilus

You're not getting it. They claim that you left them, not that they left you.
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« Reply #24 on: July 13, 2011, 04:44:39 AM »

Ok, that forms another question....and I would like to note, this is simply a question out of ignorance, I am not throwing accusations. how can these churches who break away from the Orthodox Church, claim to be the original? (RC, ACOE, OO, etc)? I fail to understand that.

primuspilus

I don't know what the ACoE and OO can say, but we Catholics claim to be the original because we are! The ACoE and the OO broke aways from us in the 5th century, the EO in the 15th century, and the Protestants in the 16th century.

 Roll Eyes
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« Reply #25 on: July 13, 2011, 04:45:31 AM »

But thats the thing. The Schism of 1054 had roots in what RC's believed that was different from the original EO teachings. So how can the RC's say that? Last time I checked the RC's added the filioque, not the EO, so to me, that would constitute a separation from what EO taught since the beginning.....so, an education in this would be appreciated.

primuspilus

Actually, they view the matter as primarily about the primacy of Rome and view you as having deviated from the original teaching on that matter.
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« Reply #26 on: July 13, 2011, 04:46:41 AM »

Exactly. Those that left -- in particular, the Oriental Orthodox and the Eastern Orthodox -- are free to say that they are "A", but that doesn't change the fact that they are "B".

 Roll Eyes
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« Reply #27 on: July 13, 2011, 04:48:29 AM »

i mean no offense, but just saying "they left" dosent really prove they did.

The same reasoning applies to your own religious persuasion. You all have your reasons. It's your job to come to an understanding of their substance and why people believe them.
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« Reply #28 on: July 13, 2011, 04:50:15 AM »

The initiative for the split was clearly on the part of the RC's.

Clear to you and me but not to others.
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« Reply #29 on: July 13, 2011, 04:51:47 AM »

I guess that moderator should intervene here. If you claim RC to be the original you need to give reasons why. And stop with this because "I said so".

As lame as it may be, he doesn't need to give reasons, and he doesn't need to stop the "I said so" "logic". It should be sufficient to not pay his pathetic attempts much heed.
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« Reply #30 on: July 13, 2011, 04:53:46 AM »

I don't know if you're referring to me or someone else; but either way, please quote the because-I-said-so post.

That is the style of these posts:

I don't know what the ACoE and OO can say, but we Catholics claim to be the original because we are! The ACoE and the OO broke aways from us in the 5th century, the EO in the 15th century, and the Protestants in the 16th century.

Exactly. Those that left -- in particular, the Oriental Orthodox and the Eastern Orthodox -- are free to say that they are "A", but that doesn't change the fact that they are "B".
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« Reply #31 on: July 13, 2011, 04:55:35 AM »

How could I respond to the question "how can these churches who break away from the Orthodox Church, claim to be the original? (RC, ACOE, OO, etc)?" without pointing out that the question itself is wrong? No doubt you would want me to say "Here, I'll explain to you how we claim to be the original, even though we broke away from the Orthodox Church ... " :rolleyes:

Answering a question that is loaded because of confusion with answers with the same sort of error is stupid.
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« Reply #32 on: July 13, 2011, 09:48:06 AM »

Quote
How could I respond to the question "how can these churches who break away from the Orthodox Church, claim to be the original? (RC, ACOE, OO, etc)?" without pointing out that the question itself is wrong? No doubt you would want me to say "Here, I'll explain to you how we claim to be the original, even though we broke away from the Orthodox Church

I am simply wanting to understand everyone's point of view because I am new to this. im not trying to set anyone up or anything. If the question is wrong, tell me how it is. Im trying to learn, thats all.

I dont "WANT" you to say anything in the manner of which you are obviously referring. I am simply curious.

primuspilus

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« Reply #33 on: July 13, 2011, 10:11:18 AM »

I don't thinks it matters anymore who broke away from who, everybody will defend what faith they are in and nobody will say we got it wrong.

All this happened a long time ago, what matters now is that we all grow in our Faith, and support each other.

Maybe the churches will reunite, maybe they won't, but that is another topic entirely.

yours in Christ
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« Reply #34 on: July 13, 2011, 10:28:30 AM »

we Catholics claim to be the original because we are!

Dream on.
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« Reply #35 on: July 13, 2011, 11:12:28 AM »

Quote
How could I respond to the question "how can these churches who break away from the Orthodox Church, claim to be the original? (RC, ACOE, OO, etc)?" without pointing out that the question itself is wrong? No doubt you would want me to say "Here, I'll explain to you how we claim to be the original, even though we broke away from the Orthodox Church

I am simply wanting to understand everyone's point of view because I am new to this.

Yeah, well I tried to give you my p.o.v. in response to your question in the first place. But apparently I was really opening myself up for attack but others on this thread.

im not trying to set anyone up or anything. If the question is wrong, tell me how it is. Im trying to learn, thats all.

I dont "WANT" you to say anything in the manner of which you are obviously referring.

I never said that you did. The "you" in "No doubt you would want me to say" etc was referring to cyro, not you.

Anyhow, I've tried to be patient with this conversation, but frankly I'm kind of sick of it.
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« Reply #36 on: July 13, 2011, 11:32:24 AM »

Ok, that forms another question....and I would like to note, this is simply a question out of ignorance, I am not throwing accusations. how can these churches who break away from the Orthodox Church, claim to be the original? (RC, ACOE, OO, etc)? I fail to understand that.

primuspilus

I don't know what the ACoE and OO can say, but we Catholics claim to be the original because we are! The ACoE and the OO broke aways from us in the 5th century, the EO in the 15th century, and the Protestants in the 16th century.
We Catholics are the original because we are.  Your Vatican broke off from us at least by 1054, though I say 1015, when your "supreme pontiff" stopped confessing the Orthodox Creed his predecessors accepted from the Catholic Church, and adopted another creed at the Frankish emperor's command.
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« Reply #37 on: July 13, 2011, 11:34:54 AM »

The initiative for the split was clearly on the part of the RC's.

Clear to you and me but not to others.
Clear enough.

The Fathers of the Ecumenical Councils set their seal on the Orthdoox Creed of the Catholic Church, and it didn't have Filioque.

We kept it that way.  The Vatican changed it centuries later, contradicting the Orthdoox Popes of the Catholic Church at Rome.

Clear enough.
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« Reply #38 on: July 13, 2011, 11:55:25 AM »

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I never said that you did. The "you" in "No doubt you would want me to say" etc was referring to cyro, not you.
Then I sincerely apologize. I was mistaken.

Quote
Yeah, well I tried to give you my p.o.v. in response to your question in the first place. But apparently I was really opening myself up for attack but others on this thread.

Again, I apologize, I didnt mean to get you set up for that. My question was sincere.

primuspilus
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« Reply #39 on: July 13, 2011, 01:40:06 PM »

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I never said that you did. The "you" in "No doubt you would want me to say" etc was referring to cyro, not you.
Then I sincerely apologize. I was mistaken.

Quote
Yeah, well I tried to give you my p.o.v. in response to your question in the first place. But apparently I was really opening myself up for attack but others on this thread.

Again, I apologize, I didnt mean to get you set up for that. My question was sincere.

primuspilus

Fair enough. For my part, I probably should have focused more on your actual responses, and not gotten distracted by other posts.
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« Reply #40 on: July 13, 2011, 01:45:19 PM »

Ok, that forms another question....and I would like to note, this is simply a question out of ignorance, I am not throwing accusations. how can these churches who break away from the Orthodox Church, claim to be the original? (RC, ACOE, OO, etc)? I fail to understand that.

primuspilus

"Break away"?

Which party is the one that broke away is debated.

They each claim to be the party that was broken away from.
It shouldn't be. It's obvious that we are the Church.
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« Reply #41 on: July 13, 2011, 03:06:09 PM »

It shouldn't be. It's obvious that we are the Church.

prove it, any pre-schism church canon?
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« Reply #42 on: July 13, 2011, 03:08:55 PM »

Ok, that forms another question....and I would like to note, this is simply a question out of ignorance, I am not throwing accusations. how can these churches who break away from the Orthodox Church, claim to be the original? (RC, ACOE, OO, etc)? I fail to understand that.

primuspilus

"Break away"?

Which party is the one that broke away is debated.

They each claim to be the party that was broken away from.
It shouldn't be. It's obvious that we are the Church.
When the Vatican doesn't resember even the Church at Rome of the first millenium, it is obvious you are not.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #43 on: July 13, 2011, 03:53:45 PM »

Ok, that forms another question....and I would like to note, this is simply a question out of ignorance, I am not throwing accusations. how can these churches who break away from the Orthodox Church, claim to be the original? (RC, ACOE, OO, etc)? I fail to understand that.

primuspilus

"Break away"?

Which party is the one that broke away is debated.

They each claim to be the party that was broken away from.
It shouldn't be. It's obvious that we are the Church.
When the Vatican doesn't resember even the Church at Rome of the first millenium, it is obvious you are not.
Development > stagnation
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« Reply #44 on: July 13, 2011, 03:58:44 PM »

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Development > stagnation

In which case Im sure some on here would say

Stagnation > Heresy

primuspilus

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"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
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