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Author Topic: Confronting a non-OO about taking Communion  (Read 2884 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: July 10, 2011, 11:59:40 PM »

I have a question, regarding confronting non-confirmed/baptised persons taking Communion.

My family member's wife is Catholic and they sometimes both come to church. They are legally married by the state, but not according to any church, nevermind the OO Church. His wife took Communion and I almost said something to her, but was conflicted because I did not want to "start waves". How should I confront her about this, or should I at all? I remember another Catholic that came to our church that in the past the priest told them they could commune...what can you/should you do in either of these events. As far as I see it there are two issues involved:

1. She is not a baptised or confirmed member of the OO Church

2. She is not married according to the Church, and is thus de facto in an adulterous relationship. I guess the same would go for her husband.

Thanks for your input on the matter.
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« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2011, 12:05:59 AM »

Talk to your priest about it.
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« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2011, 12:09:45 AM »

I have a question, regarding confronting non-confirmed/baptised persons taking Communion.

My family member's wife is Catholic and they sometimes both come to church. They are legally married by the state, but not according to any church, nevermind the OO Church. His wife took Communion and I almost said something to her, but was conflicted because I did not want to "start waves". How should I confront her about this, or should I at all? I remember another Catholic that came to our church that in the past the priest told them they could commune...what can you/should you do in either of these events. As far as I see it there are two issues involved:

1. She is not a baptised or confirmed member of the OO Church

2. She is not married according to the Church, and is thus de facto in an adulterous relationship. I guess the same would go for her husband.

Thanks for your input on the matter.
I don't think the Armenians have an agreement with the Vatican on intercommunion, so yes you should say something, both to them and the priest. It's important enough: today we remember St. Joseph of Damascus, who was killed swallowing the Eucharist in the Tabernacle so Muslims couldn't defile it.
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« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2011, 01:08:32 AM »

I agree with talking to your Priest about it and explaining why you think it's inappropriate for them to be receiving Communion (assuming that he doesn't know their situation).
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« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2011, 10:02:35 AM »

It's up to your priest to whom he administers communion.  Talk to him and make him aware of the situation if it bothers you.  Other than that, it's not really your business.
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« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2011, 10:05:55 AM »

It's up to your priest to whom he administers communion.  Talk to him and make him aware of the situation if it bothers you.  Other than that, it's not really your business.
Actually, it is. Not as much as the priest's, but if you saw someone descrating the Eucharist would you walk your way saying, "that's the priest's business."
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« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2011, 10:22:54 AM »

It's up to your priest to whom he administers communion.  Talk to him and make him aware of the situation if it bothers you.  Other than that, it's not really your business.
Actually, it is. Not as much as the priest's, but if you saw someone descrating the Eucharist would you walk your way saying, "that's the priest's business."
What are you supposed to do, jump in front of the chalice and make a scene?  In this instance, I don't see how there is a "desecration" of the Eucharist. 

Ultimately, it is the priest's decision who he does or does not commune.  If you have a problem with his decisions, feel free to mention to him later any information you may have that you think should impact his decision in the future.  But at the end of the day, he is ordained to hold the chalice and administer its contents.  Not you. 
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« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2011, 10:46:10 AM »

I was under the impression from this forum that Armenians, at least in the U.S., will commune any who approach the chalice.
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« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2011, 11:05:23 AM »

Unfortunately, the Church, at least here in the US, has become very liberal in that sense.  I don't think my priest will commune Protestants, but I have seen him commune Roman Catholics.  I feel it is something that is between the priest, his bishop, and God. 
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« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2011, 11:12:18 AM »

It's up to your priest to whom he administers communion.  Talk to him and make him aware of the situation if it bothers you.  Other than that, it's not really your business.
Actually, it is. Not as much as the priest's, but if you saw someone descrating the Eucharist would you walk your way saying, "that's the priest's business."
What are you supposed to do, jump in front of the chalice and make a scene?



In this instance, I don't see how there is a "desecration" of the Eucharist
Well, either you believe it is God's flesh and blood in the chalice, or you don't.

Ultimately, it is the priest's decision who he does or does not commune.
No, it is not.  He is still bound by the canons, and answerable to his bishop, Church, and God.

If you have a problem with his decisions, feel free to mention to him later any information you may have that you think should impact his decision in the future.
Don't feel free. Feel obligated.

But at the end of the day, he is ordained to hold the chalice and administer its contents.  Not you. 
the ordained can be deposed.  It's not a birthright to do with as one pleases.

Unless the Armenian Church has made some agreement for intercommunion with the Vatican (in and of itself a different and serious problem), no one in submission to the Vatican should be approaching an Orthodox chalice to commune.  The priest has no authority to decide otherwise.
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« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2011, 05:13:11 PM »

(EDIT)  I'm not going to belabor this point.  There are some things for arguing on the internet, and some things that should be left to pastoral discretion.  If you feel you should discuss things with your pastor about how he makes those decisions, feel free to do so.
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« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2011, 04:21:43 AM »

It's up to your priest to whom he administers communion.  Talk to him and make him aware of the situation if it bothers you.  Other than that, it's not really your business.

Same old OO clericalism.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2011, 04:24:06 AM »

So what are you saying DVE? Cause a scene? Accuse the priest of heresy? Assume that YOUR understanding is better than your priest's?
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« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2011, 05:12:20 AM »

So what are you saying DVE? Cause a scene? Accuse the priest of heresy? Assume that YOUR understanding is better than your priest's?

The main problem is the "it's not your business" accompanied with the attitude of simply leaving these things to the clergy because it is their job. This attitude of not challenging the clergy has been manifest many times on this board among the OO in a way that seems clearly clericalist to me.

I don't know about accusing him of heresy. If it appears that he is teaching or practicing heresy then I certainly think he should at least, at first, be challenged about it in private even if it be by a lay person. That's not clear in this situation yet. Whether the Priest even understands the situation yet is not clear. No, I don't believe in causing scenes in the middle of the Liturgy unless the collective integrity of the Liturgy itself is being challenged. So at this point I'm just advocating meeting with the Priest afterwards and explaining how the Communing of these individuals seems to be contrary to the Tradition of the Church.
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« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2011, 05:24:27 AM »

So how is that different to what Aram suggested, in speaking to the priest concerned?

Why throw in an insult towards the Church?

There are many things that ARE best left to the clergy, bcause the bishop and his priests have received a charism and are not simply management.

That isn't clericalism. It's Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #15 on: July 12, 2011, 05:32:42 AM »

So how is that different to what Aram suggested, in speaking to the priest concerned?

It sounded like he was essentially just talking about being one's sensitives being bothered by it. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about talking about it seemingly being inappropriate and a violation of the integrity of the Eucharist:

It's up to your priest to whom he administers communion.

Yes, but it can also become clear to the laity that the way that the Priest is administering Holy Communion is a violation of the faith, and in that case they must resist him.

It's up to your priest to whom he administers communion.  Talk to him and make him aware of the situation if it bothers you.  Other than that, it's not really your business.

It is the business of the laity to ensure that heresy is not taught or practiced. Certain ways of administering the Eucharist can be reflections of a lived out heresy. In this case the laity must challenge the Priest and resist him.

This discussion, however, is theoretical at this point because it's not clear that the Priest even understood that he was Communing Romanists.

Why throw in an insult towards the Church?

I wasn't labeling the OOC clericalist in general. I was just implying that there is common current of clericalism among the OO faithful that I have actually experienced most on this site.
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« Reply #16 on: July 29, 2011, 08:42:24 PM »

Unfortunately, the Church, at least here in the US, has become very liberal in that sense.  I don't think my priest will commune Protestants, but I have seen him commune Roman Catholics.  I feel it is something that is between the priest, his bishop, and God. 
*Sigh* Lord have mercy! I don't mean to disrespect your Priest or your Church, so please don't take this the wrong way. But, that is really distressing. I honestly think that only Orthodox should commune in the OO Church. Don't you guys agree?
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« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2011, 08:48:59 PM »

I do have issues with it, but I don't think it's my place to go and correct my priest.  It's something I just pray about.
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« Reply #18 on: July 29, 2011, 08:57:55 PM »

Tell the priest in a discreet manner, but try not to make a scene.
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« Reply #19 on: July 30, 2011, 01:36:05 PM »

I do have issues with it, but I don't think it's my place to go and correct my priest.  It's something I just pray about.
I understand, of course.

Peace,
Severian
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« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2011, 01:37:03 PM »

I don't think the Armenians have an agreement with the Vatican on intercommunion, so yes you should say something, both to them and the priest. It's important enough: today we remember St. Joseph of Damascus, who was killed swallowing the Eucharist in the Tabernacle so Muslims couldn't defile it.
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« Reply #21 on: July 30, 2011, 01:44:18 PM »

My Priest actually told me a story where a Bishop visiting my Church (unknowingly) administered the body to a non-Orthodox Christian. When he approached the chalice to receive the blood my Priest asked "have you been baptized?" To which the non-Orthodox replied "yes", my Priest then realized that the question was insufficient, then he asked "do you believe that this is the very same blood that the Lord shed 2000 years ago?" to which the non-Orthodox answered "no". Then my Priest turned him away and the non-Orthodox after eceiving the Lord's body without receiving his blood (which is a separate issue). I doubt my Priest would have administered the blood to him even if he answered "yes", the point is that, thankfully, my Coptic Archdiocese doesn't commune non-Orthodox.
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« Reply #22 on: July 30, 2011, 04:36:09 PM »

2. She is not married according to the Church, and is thus de facto in an adulterous relationship. I guess the same would go for her husband.
Huh
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« Reply #23 on: July 30, 2011, 05:40:57 PM »

2. She is not married according to the Church, and is thus de facto in an adulterous relationship. I guess the same would go for her husband.
Huh
What are your thoughts, Nicholas?
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« Reply #24 on: July 30, 2011, 05:50:33 PM »

2. She is not married according to the Church, and is thus de facto in an adulterous relationship. I guess the same would go for her husband.
Huh
What are your thoughts, Nicholas?
I didn't know that non-Christian and non-Orthodox marriages were considered adulterous. Are all non-Christian married couples committing adultery according to OO teaching?
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« Reply #25 on: July 30, 2011, 06:09:55 PM »

^I don't know for sure. I would think that from a traditional RC perspective that Catholic faithful married outside the Church are living adulterous lives, of course I could be wrong. I really don't know what my Church would think. However some OO theologians and hierarchs think that there is grace in the RCC, fwiw.

What I do know is that non-Orthodox should not be communing in an Orthodox parish. I don't mean to offend my RC brothers, but to commune from an Orthodox Chalice means that you confirm the Orthodox faith. Catholics hold a different faith from the Orthodox, and as such they should not receive communion in an Armenian Church or any other Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #26 on: July 30, 2011, 06:10:29 PM »

Non-Christian and Non-Orthodox marriages are NOT considered adulterous.

Marriage existed before the Church. The Church blesses and sanctifies what is already a gift of God.

The Christian marriage is more than a Non-Christian and Non-Orthodox one, but marriage is already blessed by God wherever it is undertaken with faith and love.

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« Reply #27 on: July 30, 2011, 06:11:03 PM »

Catholics hold a different faith from the Orthodox, and as such they should not receive communion in an Armenian Church or any other Orthodox Church.
Well, unless "economia" is granted, I guess...
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« Reply #28 on: July 30, 2011, 06:12:22 PM »

Non-Christian and Non-Orthodox marriages are NOT considered adulterous.

Marriage existed before the Church. The Church blesses and sanctifies what is already a gift of God.

The Christian marriage is more than a Non-Christian and Non-Orthodox one, but marriage is already blessed by God wherever it is undertaken with faith and love.

Father Peter
Well, that's good to know. But Father, what do you think about the Armenian Orthodox communing Catholics in the USA?
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« Reply #29 on: July 30, 2011, 06:21:13 PM »

There have been times when the Coptic Church has been quite close to the Roman Catholic Church, such as between the 13th-15th centuries. Indeed there were Coptic representatives at the Reunion Councils in Italy. When Francis of Assisi visited Egypt I am not sure, because I have not found the evidence either way, that he was not communed in Orthodox Churches.

The Armenian Church have had a different trajectory of relationship with the Roman Catholic Church and so have a rather different attitude, especially, as far as I am aware, the Cilicians who nearly entered into union with Rome in the past. I think that the modern Coptic attitude towards the Roman Catholic Church is heavily influenced negatively by the introduction of Catholicism into Egypt where it has mostly drawn members from the Orthodox Church. It may be that the Armenian relationship is viewed more positively even though it did not come to union fo a variety of properly conservative reasons.

I could see that it might be possible, (as far as my own opinion goes), to commune a particular person who was formally Roman Catholic but had entered into the life of a local Orthodox community. But I don't see how it can easily be justified to commune most or all Roman Catholics as a matter of course. But the Syrians also commune Roman Catholics, so this is not only an issue for Armenians in the US.

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« Reply #30 on: July 30, 2011, 06:34:46 PM »

Thank you Father. Yes, I knew my Church used to have somewhat of a closer relationship to the RCC a few centuries ago. And Salpy told me on the EO-OO private fora about the loose unity between Armenians and RCs. But, I agree with you. Communing a few Catholics here and there based on dispensation is one thing, but with many OO it's a regular thing which gets me worried sometimes. Oh, well, it's something to pray for...

Thanks again,
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« Reply #31 on: July 30, 2011, 06:46:22 PM »

^I don't know for sure. I would think that from a traditional RC perspective that Catholic faithful married outside the Church are living adulterous lives
Oh, I didn't understand that you specifically meant a Catholic marrying a non-Catholic.
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« Reply #32 on: July 31, 2011, 03:20:20 AM »

Actually, there is a long-standing informal pastoral agreement between the Armenian Apostolic Church and the Catholic Church relative to allowing access to the Mysteries of either Church by faithful of the other.

Although I believe that, in its inception, it was principally intended to assure pastoral care to faithful of the Armenian Apostolic Church and the Armenian Catholic Church who are without access to the pastoral care of their own presbyters (similarly to the formal agreement between the Syriac Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church, and that between the Assyrian Church and the Catholic Church), it's my understanding that it is applied liberally both in the US and elsewhere.

Many years,

Neil
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« Reply #33 on: July 31, 2011, 03:29:30 AM »

^*Sigh* Now that is a problem! Once again, I hope I'm not offending my RC brothers, but I just feel that only Orthodox should commune in an Orthodox Church, be it Armenian, Coptic, Ethiopian, Malankara, etc.

Peace,
Severian
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« Reply #34 on: July 31, 2011, 03:35:39 AM »

Actually, there is a long-standing informal pastoral agreement between the Armenian Apostolic Church and the Catholic Church relative to allowing access to the Mysteries of either Church by faithful of the other.

Although I believe that, in its inception, it was principally intended to assure pastoral care to faithful of the Armenian Apostolic Church and the Armenian Catholic Church who are without access to the pastoral care of their own presbyters (similarly to the formal agreement between the Syriac Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church, and that between the Assyrian Church and the Catholic Church), it's my understanding that it is applied liberally both in the US and elsewhere.

Many years,

Neil

That sounds about right to me.  Very few Armenian priests escaped the Genocide alive, leaving a void through much of the twentieth century.  The feeling I get from listening to the older generation is that when they were growing up in the 1920's and 1930's there was a sort of feeling that if there was no Armenian church around you went to whatever church you could find in the area you lived, and it was OK, as long as you still kept your Armenian Orthodox identity.  I don't think any formal agreements were ever made between the Armenian Church and any other Church.  It just sort of happened.

The problem, of course, is that there really is not a need for such intercommunion now, and it just confuses things.  
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« Reply #35 on: July 31, 2011, 03:45:28 AM »

I just feel that only Orthodox should commune in an Orthodox Church, be it Armenian, Coptic, Ethiopian, Malankara, etc.

Among the OO Churches, only the Copts, Ethiopians, and Eritreans adhere strictly to this as regards communing Catholics and, as Father Peter alluded to in one of his posts above, there was a period - only a few decades past - when relations between Rome and the Coptic Orthodox Church were much closer than they are at present. In that time, a similar informal pastoral agreement was observed between the Coptic Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church. It was intended primarily to meet the needs for spiritual care of Coptic Catholics who were (and still are) significantly underserved pastorally in the diaspora.

Many years,

Neil
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« Reply #36 on: July 31, 2011, 04:11:20 AM »

The feeling I get from listening to the older generation is that when they were growing up in the 1920's and 1930's there was a sort of feeling that if there was no Armenian church around you went to whatever church you could find in the area you lived, and it was OK, as long as you still kept your Armenian Orthodox identity.

Salpy,

Very true. And, in places where there was a significant Armenian presence, but no presbyters, one could find Protestant churches which enterprising ministers developed around Armenian (and other ethnic) communities. This was especially true in the late 19th and early 20th century - an era when Protestant divinity schools actively fostered the development of multi-lingual fluency on the part of their students. 

These circumstances produced some strange results:

Armenian Presbyterian churches named for Saints (St Nareg is one), the Holy Trinity (there are still a couple of the latter in CA), or the Armenian Holy Martyrs - not exactly typical nomenclature for Presbyterian churches.

A Baptist church in MA whose congregational rolls for generations back are replete with Italian surnames, whose front lawn sports a statute of Mary, whose congregants can be seen exiting with rosaries in hand, and whose history tells of the intransigence of the local Catholic hierarchy when requested to provide an Italian-speaking priest for the newly immigrated - a request that an local Protestant minister had no compunctions about meeting.

Ukrainian Protestant churches in NJ, and scattered throughout the Rust Belt, with stories remarkably like the one above. If memory serves correctly, it was a Presbyterian divinity school that published a treatise aimed at those seeking to evangelize among Ukrainians, Slovaks, and other Eastern Europeans, as well as offering classes in Ukrainian to its seminarians.

Many years,

Neil 
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« Reply #37 on: July 31, 2011, 06:01:09 AM »

Though I am tolerant (as far as it matters what a priest thinks) of all manner of economia in times of extremis, as has been said, this is not the case in the West any more. Indeed the question we would expect to be asked is whether an X Orthodox should commune at a Catholic Church when they are isolated from their own community, since there can be hardly any circumstances in the West where Catholics in general have no access at all to a Catholic Church and can only attend an X Orthodox.

(I am not talking about individual cases).

Generally speaking I do not think that Orthodox should be communing Catholics as a matter of course at the moment because there are still quite important differences. The situation is not exactly the same as that between EO and OO. Doing so in times of mass extermination of all Christians is one thing, but doing it in the West is another.
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« Reply #38 on: July 31, 2011, 08:23:31 AM »

Actually, there is a long-standing informal pastoral agreement between the Armenian Apostolic Church and the Catholic Church relative to allowing access to the Mysteries of either Church by faithful of the other.

Although I believe that, in its inception, it was principally intended to assure pastoral care to faithful of the Armenian Apostolic Church and the Armenian Catholic Church who are without access to the pastoral care of their own presbyters (similarly to the formal agreement between the Syriac Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church, and that between the Assyrian Church and the Catholic Church), it's my understanding that it is applied liberally both in the US and elsewhere.

Many years,

Neil

That sounds about right to me.  Very few Armenian priests escaped the Genocide alive, leaving a void through much of the twentieth century.  The feeling I get from listening to the older generation is that when they were growing up in the 1920's and 1930's there was a sort of feeling that if there was no Armenian church around you went to whatever church you could find in the area you lived, and it was OK, as long as you still kept your Armenian Orthodox identity.  I don't think any formal agreements were ever made between the Armenian Church and any other Church.  It just sort of happened.

The problem, of course, is that there really is not a need for such intercommunion now, and it just confuses things.  
Armenians were generally told to attend either the Episcopal or Greek Churches, not Catholic.

I'm also not sure this "intercommunion" between the Armenians and Catholics is anywhere near as extensive or formal as has been stated here.
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« Reply #39 on: July 31, 2011, 11:33:41 AM »

It was never formal in the sense of an agreement among clergy.  The feeling that I get from the older people, though, is that they really didn't have a problem going wherever convenient after the Genocide if there was no Armenian parish around.  I'm speaking of our grandparents' and even parents' generation.  I think part of this was from an ignorance of the difference between our Church and others.

Of course what I have encountered could just be peculiar to my area and to the people that I know, and not representative of the whole.   
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« Reply #40 on: July 31, 2011, 12:57:18 PM »

I just feel that only Orthodox should commune in an Orthodox Church, be it Armenian, Coptic, Ethiopian, Malankara, etc.

Among the OO Churches, only the Copts, Ethiopians, and Eritreans adhere strictly to this as regards communing Catholics and, as Father Peter alluded to in one of his posts above, there was a period - only a few decades past - when relations between Rome and the Coptic Orthodox Church were much closer than they are at present. In that time, a similar informal pastoral agreement was observed between the Coptic Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church. It was intended primarily to meet the needs for spiritual care of Coptic Catholics who were (and still are) significantly underserved pastorally in the diaspora.

Many years,

Neil
If Orthodox Priests commune a few Catholics here and there for pastoral reasons, then that could probably be tolerated. But far too many OO commune non-Orthodox as a matter of course.
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« Reply #41 on: July 31, 2011, 02:32:17 PM »

It was never formal in the sense of an agreement among clergy.  The feeling that I get from the older people, though, is that they really didn't have a problem going wherever convenient after the Genocide if there was no Armenian parish around.  I'm speaking of our grandparents' and even parents' generation.  I think part of this was from an ignorance of the difference between our Church and others.

Of course what I have encountered could just be peculiar to my area and to the people that I know, and not representative of the whole.   
This may have been more prevalent in smaller cities and communities when there were not yet churches.  Yet in most major cities in what is now the Eastern Diocese, where the majority of Armenians settled in the years after the Genocide, there were already churches either shortly before or immediately after the Genocide.  Same goes for California, where there were already parishes well before the Genocide.  While there were isolated pockets of Armenian communities in smaller places, Armenian immigration tended to flock people together in very specific places. 

Armenians were generally told to go to Episcopal parishes because Episcopalians reached out to not just Armenians, but Russian and other EO ethnic groups as well to provide space for worship.  In some cities, this stretched even into the 1950s.  And, for decades, much of the English-language Sunday School material in the Armenian Church in the United States came from the Episcopal Church.  Thus, many Armenians developed a respect for the Episcopalians, and would defer to go there when there wasn't a church available.  The trend seems to have turned in recent decades, and the Armenians I know who have moved to obscure places without a church usually go to a Greek or Antiochian parish.  When I lived far away from a church for a while, I went to a variety of Russian parishes.  Then again, I was raised both EO and OO, so it wasn't a stretch for me.  I just didn't take communion. 

As for one of the other side discussions, yes, many people went to other Protestant churches as well, and some Protestant traditions did attempt to "poach" Armenians.  (Which, interestingly, was the impetus for the first Armenian Church in the United States when a Swedish Protestant minister in Worcester, MA attempted to do just that.)  But once the Armenian parish opened (if there wasn't one), people generally went there.  Please do not confuse Armenians going to Protestant churches with the Armenian Protestant/Evangelical/Congregational Churches, which is a different phenomenon.
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« Reply #42 on: July 31, 2011, 02:42:53 PM »

If Orthodox Priests commune a few Catholics here and there for pastoral reasons, then that could probably be tolerated. But far too many OO commune non-Orthodox as a matter of course.
And that's exactly what seems to be happening, but for some reason there are some that are insistent that there is some official blanket policy in the Armenian Church that we're cool with communing anyone.  That isn't the case. 

For instance, in my parish, the following is printed on the front cover of our Sunday bulletin, which everyone receives on their way in the front door:

Quote
...and invite all who are Baptized and Chrismated in, or are in communion with, the Armenian Church to receive the Sacrament of Holy Communion.

That's pretty clear, isn't it?  OO are free.  EO are not.  Catholics are not.  "In communion with" means just that.

As for this statement Neil made:

Quote
Actually, there is a long-standing informal pastoral agreement between the Armenian Apostolic Church and the Catholic Church relative to allowing access to the Mysteries of either Church by faithful of the other.
I suspect this is either an urban legend, or some form of local economia that is assumed to be universal.  If you can provide documentation to prove this, please do.  This is not anything I have ever experienced anywhere in the Armenian Church.
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« Reply #43 on: July 31, 2011, 03:26:27 PM »

Okay Aram, thank God! I'm glad that's the case. Nevertheless, I know of many Syriac Orthodox who openly commune RCs, so that's still a problem. But thanks for your very helpful input.

God bless,
Severian
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