Author Topic: Incorrupt Non-Chalcedonian saints?  (Read 2092 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline jah777

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,089
Incorrupt Non-Chalcedonian saints?
« on: July 13, 2011, 10:49:33 AM »
In Eastern Orthodoxy, incorrupt relics are a very important sign of a saint's holiness and sanctity.  There are many stories of saints in the Eastern Orthodox Church who have been incorrupt.  In the 20th century alone, for instance, we have St. John of San Francisco, St. Savvas the New of Kalymnos, St. John the Romanian, and others whose bodies have remained incorrupt for decades after their repose and whose incorrupt relics are a continual source of healing for many.  Do the Non-Chalcedonians also have saints who are incorrupt?  If so, I would be interested in reading the stories of such saints if Non-Chalcedonians would be willing to paste relevant passages from their books.  Please also share photos of such incorrupt relics.

Thank you.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2011, 10:54:26 AM by jah777 »

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 39,948
Re: Incorrupt Non-Chalcedonian saints?
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2011, 11:22:57 AM »
In Eastern Orthodoxy, incorrupt relics are a very important sign of a saint's holiness and sanctity.  There are many stories of saints in the Eastern Orthodox Church who have been incorrupt.  In the 20th century alone, for instance, we have St. John of San Francisco, St. Savvas the New of Kalymnos, St. John the Romanian, and others whose bodies have remained incorrupt for decades after their repose and whose incorrupt relics are a continual source of healing for many.  Do the Non-Chalcedonians also have saints who are incorrupt?  If so, I would be interested in reading the stories of such saints if Non-Chalcedonians would be willing to paste relevant passages from their books.  Please also share photos of such incorrupt relics.

Thank you.
I think Dostoevski made the relevant comment on such a mentality in the funeral of the Elder Zosimos.

The OO do have their incorrupt saints, but before we go there for your agenda, tell us what you have to say about the ones the Vatican claims it has.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline jah777

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,089
Re: Incorrupt Non-Chalcedonian saints?
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2011, 12:11:44 PM »
tell us what you have to say about the ones the Vatican claims it has.

This is a different subject which is worthy of a separate thread in a another forum other than "Oriental Orthodox Discussion" where I posted the present message.  If you would like to discuss claims regarding RC incorruptibles, please start a separate thread instread of diverting this present one.  In this thread, I am interested only in stories of Non-Chalcedon saints whose relics are incorrupt, and photos of such incorrupt relics, for the simple reason that I do not know of any. 

Offline Father Peter

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,826
    • Coptic Orthodox Church - Patriarchal Diocese
  • Faith: Coptic Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Patriarchal Diocese
Re: Incorrupt Non-Chalcedonian saints?
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2011, 12:44:31 PM »
My mission - http://www.stgeorgeministry.com

My blog - http://anorthodoxpriest.blogspot.co.uk

The poster formerly known as peterfarrington

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 39,948
Re: Incorrupt Non-Chalcedonian saints?
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2011, 12:54:15 PM »
There are many such examples.

Here is one...

http://www.erkohet.com/index.php/church-historym-fathers-a-saints/232-bishop-yousaab
tell us what you have to say about the ones the Vatican claims it has.

This is a different subject which is worthy of a separate thread in a another forum other than "Oriental Orthodox Discussion" where I posted the present message.  If you would like to discuss claims regarding RC incorruptibles, please start a separate thread instread of diverting this present one.  In this thread, I am interested only in stories of Non-Chalcedon saints whose relics are incorrupt, and photos of such incorrupt relics, for the simple reason that I do not know of any.  
So, now you do. And?

Btw, I'll add Pope St. Cyril the Sixth (it's not official yet, as the Church doesn't glorify a saint until half a century after his falling asleep, but it is just a matter fo time).
http://albionfourthrome.blogspot.com/2011/01/pope-kyrillos-vis-relics-incorrupt.html
« Last Edit: July 13, 2011, 01:04:28 PM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline jah777

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,089
Re: Incorrupt Non-Chalcedonian saints?
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2011, 01:04:57 PM »
There are many such examples.

Here is one...

http://www.erkohet.com/index.php/church-historym-fathers-a-saints/232-bishop-yousaab

Thank you, Fr. Peter, for responding to my inquiry.  Of course, I would be interested in reading about more examples if you have time to provide them.  I searched through the Coptic Synaxarium and could not find any examples, but perhaps I wasn't searching using the proper words.

http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/synexarion/index.html
« Last Edit: July 13, 2011, 01:24:06 PM by jah777 »

Offline Fr.Kyrillos

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 124
Re: Incorrupt Non-Chalcedonian saints?
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2011, 02:14:45 PM »
This is Fr. Andrew the Samuelite who died in late 1989. He was a great modern saint who was blind from infancy and lived to be over 100 years old after living an extremely ascetic life.




May his prayers be with us.

Fr. Kyrillos

p.s. if the picture doesn't show up, go here:

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/853/standrewsamualiteincorr.jpg/



« Last Edit: July 13, 2011, 02:18:35 PM by Fr.Kyrillos »

Offline Father Peter

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,826
    • Coptic Orthodox Church - Patriarchal Diocese
  • Faith: Coptic Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Patriarchal Diocese
Re: Incorrupt Non-Chalcedonian saints?
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2011, 02:15:29 PM »
There are a lot. Just do a Google for 'incorrupt relics Coptic' and variants.
My mission - http://www.stgeorgeministry.com

My blog - http://anorthodoxpriest.blogspot.co.uk

The poster formerly known as peterfarrington

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 39,948
Re: Incorrupt Non-Chalcedonian saints?
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2011, 02:17:46 PM »
This is Fr. Andrew the Samuelite who died in late 1989. He was a great modern saint who was blind from infancy and lived to be over 100 years old after living an extremely ascetic life.


(img)(/img)

May his prayers be with us.

Fr. Kyrillos


tried to fix that.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2011, 02:18:21 PM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Aram

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 447
  • Faith: Armenian Orthodox
Re: Incorrupt Non-Chalcedonian saints?
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2011, 03:34:24 PM »
I don't know of any in the Armenian Church.  Or any particular emphasis on incorruptibility to begin with.

Then again, in a somewhat related aside, the Armenian Church has not glorified a new saint in over 500 years.  So that perhaps complicates things a bit.

Offline Shanghaiski

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,973
  • Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia
Re: Incorrupt Non-Chalcedonian saints?
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2011, 04:05:54 PM »
I don't know of any in the Armenian Church.  Or any particular emphasis on incorruptibility to begin with.

Then again, in a somewhat related aside, the Armenian Church has not glorified a new saint in over 500 years.  So that perhaps complicates things a bit.

Wow, that's odd. Weren't there any martyred by the Turks in the last centuries?
Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Offline Aram

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 447
  • Faith: Armenian Orthodox
Re: Incorrupt Non-Chalcedonian saints?
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2011, 04:34:46 PM »
I don't know of any in the Armenian Church.  Or any particular emphasis on incorruptibility to begin with.

Then again, in a somewhat related aside, the Armenian Church has not glorified a new saint in over 500 years.  So that perhaps complicates things a bit.

Wow, that's odd. Weren't there any martyred by the Turks in the last centuries?
Sure there were.  There's a pretty lengthy list of people who should be saints.  But there isn't an accepted process by which that happens, nor does it seem to be of particular urgency.

Offline copticmind

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 108
    • Personal blog
Re: Incorrupt Non-Chalcedonian saints?
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2011, 04:11:59 AM »
Two famous examples from the Coptic Church:

Deacon Seedhom Beshay : http://goo.gl/YuFP9  (a Google image search page)

Father Botros Banoub: http://goo.gl/4R8BZ (The first 4 pictures)
Ⲡⲁϭⲟⲓⲥ Ⲓⲏⲥ Ⲡⲭⲥ ⳿ⲡϣⲏⲣⲓ ⳿ⲙ⳿Ⲫⲛⲟⲩϯ ⲛⲁⲓ ⲛⲏⲓ ⲁⲛⲟⲕ ⲡⲓⲣⲉϥⲉⲣⲛⲟⲃⲓ
يا ربي يسوع المسيح ابن الله ارحمني أنا الخاطئ

Online Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,054
  • Faith: Pseudo-Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: Incorrupt Non-Chalcedonian saints?
« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2011, 12:23:13 AM »
The Coptic Church communes his body? (Second picture for Deacon Seedhom Beshay)
« Last Edit: July 30, 2011, 12:23:31 AM by Volnutt »
Is that what they teach you at the temple volnutt-stein?

Actually, it's Volnutt-berg.

Rome doesn't care. Rome is actually very cool guy.

Offline Severian

  • My posts on this site don't necessarily reflect my current position on any given subject.
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,644
  • Pat. St. Severus, pray for my family & friends
    • St. Severus of Antioch's Writings
  • Faith: Coptic Orthodox Christian
Re: Incorrupt Non-Chalcedonian saints?
« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2011, 12:31:28 AM »
The Coptic Church communes his body? (Second picture for Deacon Seedhom Beshay)
From what I can see the Priest/Bishop is holding his body not communing it. Do you mind uploading the picture you are referring to?
"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die [...] These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -The Lord Jesus Christ

No longer active on OC.net. Please pray for me and forgive any harm I might have caused by my ignorance and malice. Pls email me, don't send PMs.

Offline copticmind

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 108
    • Personal blog
Re: Incorrupt Non-Chalcedonian saints?
« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2011, 05:08:57 AM »
The Coptic Church communes his body? (Second picture for Deacon Seedhom Beshay)

why would the church commune his body?!
It seems that seedhom Beshay's body is held in a position to show that his hair is still intact while the bishop is holding his skufia and a microphone.
Ⲡⲁϭⲟⲓⲥ Ⲓⲏⲥ Ⲡⲭⲥ ⳿ⲡϣⲏⲣⲓ ⳿ⲙ⳿Ⲫⲛⲟⲩϯ ⲛⲁⲓ ⲛⲏⲓ ⲁⲛⲟⲕ ⲡⲓⲣⲉϥⲉⲣⲛⲟⲃⲓ
يا ربي يسوع المسيح ابن الله ارحمني أنا الخاطئ

Online Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,054
  • Faith: Pseudo-Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: Incorrupt Non-Chalcedonian saints?
« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2011, 07:45:50 AM »
The Coptic Church communes his body? (Second picture for Deacon Seedhom Beshay)

why would the church commune his body?!
It seems that seedhom Beshay's body is held in a position to show that his hair is still intact while the bishop is holding his skufia and a microphone.

On second look, you're right! I mistook the bishop's gold sleeve for the edge of the chalice.
Is that what they teach you at the temple volnutt-stein?

Actually, it's Volnutt-berg.

Rome doesn't care. Rome is actually very cool guy.

Offline Aidan

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 126
Re: Incorrupt Non-Chalcedonian saints?
« Reply #17 on: July 30, 2011, 09:22:45 AM »
I have heard of saints being found as fresh and supple as the day they died (in British history, St Cuthbert is such an example).

Most bodies I have seen seem less than fresh. The most recent example was St John the Romanian who died in Palestine in 1960. I would not have expected small children to do anything else but run away in terror should they see him.

St Samuel seems in good shape (since we are discussing OO cases of incorrupt saints) but blackened.

Has anyone a picture or example of a saint found as incorrupt as the day he/she died?

Online Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,054
  • Faith: Pseudo-Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: Incorrupt Non-Chalcedonian saints?
« Reply #18 on: July 30, 2011, 09:56:45 AM »
St Alexander of Svir is kind of yellow but looks in pretty good shape though I haven't seen his face.
Is that what they teach you at the temple volnutt-stein?

Actually, it's Volnutt-berg.

Rome doesn't care. Rome is actually very cool guy.

Offline Iconodule

  • Professor of Cryptopatristics at Miskatonic University
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 9,279
  • Monsters from the Id
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate (ACROD)
Re: Incorrupt Non-Chalcedonian saints?
« Reply #19 on: July 30, 2011, 11:11:10 AM »
I have heard of saints being found as fresh and supple as the day they died (in British history, St Cuthbert is such an example).

Most bodies I have seen seem less than fresh. The most recent example was St John the Romanian who died in Palestine in 1960. I would not have expected small children to do anything else but run away in terror should they see him.

St Samuel seems in good shape (since we are discussing OO cases of incorrupt saints) but blackened.

Has anyone a picture or example of a saint found as incorrupt as the day he/she died?

I think "incorrupt" has to be understood as a relative term. Obviously, if they were fully incorrupt, they would still be alive. But these relics have been preserved in a way that most ordinary remains are not.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2011, 11:11:42 AM by Iconodule »
Quote from: chrisgeo
Quote from: Hamartolos
Scumbag.


I AGREE . . . SCUMBAG!!

Offline JimCBrooklyn

  • Site Supporter
  • High Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 569
  • Если бога нет, то все позволено
Re: Incorrupt Non-Chalcedonian saints?
« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2011, 11:22:11 AM »
In Eastern Orthodoxy, incorrupt relics are a very important sign of a saint's holiness and sanctity.  There are many stories of saints in the Eastern Orthodox Church who have been incorrupt.  In the 20th century alone, for instance, we have St. John of San Francisco, St. Savvas the New of Kalymnos, St. John the Romanian, and others whose bodies have remained incorrupt for decades after their repose and whose incorrupt relics are a continual source of healing for many.  Do the Non-Chalcedonians also have saints who are incorrupt?  If so, I would be interested in reading the stories of such saints if Non-Chalcedonians would be willing to paste relevant passages from their books.  Please also share photos of such incorrupt relics.

Thank you.
I think Dostoevski made the relevant comment on such a mentality in the funeral of the Elder Zosimos.

The OO do have their incorrupt saints, but before we go there for your agenda, tell us what you have to say about the ones the Vatican claims it has.
Ferapontiousness.
It is not the task of Christianity to provide easy answers to every question, but to make us progressively aware of a mystery. God is not so much the object of our knowledge as the cause of our wonder.
-Metropolitan Kallistos Ware

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 39,948
Re: Incorrupt Non-Chalcedonian saints?
« Reply #21 on: July 30, 2011, 11:32:29 AM »
In Eastern Orthodoxy, incorrupt relics are a very important sign of a saint's holiness and sanctity.  There are many stories of saints in the Eastern Orthodox Church who have been incorrupt.  In the 20th century alone, for instance, we have St. John of San Francisco, St. Savvas the New of Kalymnos, St. John the Romanian, and others whose bodies have remained incorrupt for decades after their repose and whose incorrupt relics are a continual source of healing for many.  Do the Non-Chalcedonians also have saints who are incorrupt?  If so, I would be interested in reading the stories of such saints if Non-Chalcedonians would be willing to paste relevant passages from their books.  Please also share photos of such incorrupt relics.

Thank you.
I think Dostoevski made the relevant comment on such a mentality in the funeral of the Elder Zosimos.

The OO do have their incorrupt saints, but before we go there for your agenda, tell us what you have to say about the ones the Vatican claims it has.
Ferapontiousness.
???
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Severian

  • My posts on this site don't necessarily reflect my current position on any given subject.
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,644
  • Pat. St. Severus, pray for my family & friends
    • St. Severus of Antioch's Writings
  • Faith: Coptic Orthodox Christian
Re: Incorrupt Non-Chalcedonian saints?
« Reply #22 on: July 30, 2011, 11:33:11 AM »
In Eastern Orthodoxy, incorrupt relics are a very important sign of a saint's holiness and sanctity.  There are many stories of saints in the Eastern Orthodox Church who have been incorrupt.  In the 20th century alone, for instance, we have St. John of San Francisco, St. Savvas the New of Kalymnos, St. John the Romanian, and others whose bodies have remained incorrupt for decades after their repose and whose incorrupt relics are a continual source of healing for many.  Do the Non-Chalcedonians also have saints who are incorrupt?  If so, I would be interested in reading the stories of such saints if Non-Chalcedonians would be willing to paste relevant passages from their books.  Please also share photos of such incorrupt relics.

Thank you.
I think Dostoevski made the relevant comment on such a mentality in the funeral of the Elder Zosimos.

The OO do have their incorrupt saints, but before we go there for your agenda, tell us what you have to say about the ones the Vatican claims it has.
Ferapontiousness.
???
Yeah... What's up?  ???
"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die [...] These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -The Lord Jesus Christ

No longer active on OC.net. Please pray for me and forgive any harm I might have caused by my ignorance and malice. Pls email me, don't send PMs.

Offline Iconodule

  • Professor of Cryptopatristics at Miskatonic University
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 9,279
  • Monsters from the Id
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate (ACROD)
Re: Incorrupt Non-Chalcedonian saints?
« Reply #23 on: July 30, 2011, 11:33:38 AM »
In Eastern Orthodoxy, incorrupt relics are a very important sign of a saint's holiness and sanctity.  There are many stories of saints in the Eastern Orthodox Church who have been incorrupt.  In the 20th century alone, for instance, we have St. John of San Francisco, St. Savvas the New of Kalymnos, St. John the Romanian, and others whose bodies have remained incorrupt for decades after their repose and whose incorrupt relics are a continual source of healing for many.  Do the Non-Chalcedonians also have saints who are incorrupt?  If so, I would be interested in reading the stories of such saints if Non-Chalcedonians would be willing to paste relevant passages from their books.  Please also share photos of such incorrupt relics.

Thank you.
I think Dostoevski made the relevant comment on such a mentality in the funeral of the Elder Zosimos.

The OO do have their incorrupt saints, but before we go there for your agenda, tell us what you have to say about the ones the Vatican claims it has.
Ferapontiousness.
???

Fr. Ferapont was the one who made a big stink about Elder Zosima's odor of corruption.
Quote from: chrisgeo
Quote from: Hamartolos
Scumbag.


I AGREE . . . SCUMBAG!!

Offline JimCBrooklyn

  • Site Supporter
  • High Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 569
  • Если бога нет, то все позволено
Re: Incorrupt Non-Chalcedonian saints?
« Reply #24 on: July 30, 2011, 11:35:34 AM »
Yeah, I'm just being dumb.

I don't deny any case of incorruption, but it ain't a deal-breaker.
It is not the task of Christianity to provide easy answers to every question, but to make us progressively aware of a mystery. God is not so much the object of our knowledge as the cause of our wonder.
-Metropolitan Kallistos Ware