"Quickie" conversion to Orthodoxy?

[Xenia1918]

I have something that has been bothering me for some time, I suppose I should be happy that things are moving along so quickly for me in becoming Orthodox, but I'm not, I'm concerned.

I became involved with an Orthodox parish near me, and the priest is an absolutely wonderful, engaging, kind person. We've had many long chats about theological issues (he knows my entire background with Orthodox Judaism, Traditional RC, etc)...we've discussed issues such as RC pre-V2 moral theology, the Divine Liturgy, the Eastern Catholics and their history with Orthodoxy vs Rome, the LXX vs the Masoretic, modalism, the Talmud, the Zohar, early Jewish and Christian differences, notably Justin the Philosopher's Dialogue with Trypho the Jew...and a lot more. He knows all the books I've read on Orthodoxy (The Orthodox Church; A Second Look at the Second Coming, the Catechism of the Orthodox Church, the Orthodox Study Bible, lots more)....and he is very eager to chrismate me ASAP.

Shouldn't I actually go through a course in Orthodoxy first? Isn't that what catechumens do?

When I became a (Traditional) Roman Catholic, I studied with a priest each week for about a year. Isn't that how its done in Orthodoxy too?

I feel very embarassed because Father often introduces me to people as someone who "knows everything", but really, I'm not. I know I have to have gaps in what I know, its only natural.

How do I handle this situation? Is it right for me to suggest to a priest that maybe he isn't handling things the right way? Isn't he supposed to know?

[ialmisry]

I have something that has been bothering me for some time, I suppose I should be happy that things are moving along so quickly for me in becoming Orthodox, but I'm not, I'm concerned.

I became involved with an Orthodox parish near me, and the priest is an absolutely wonderful, engaging, kind person. We've had many long chats about theological issues (he knows my entire background with Orthodox Judaism, Traditional RC, etc)...we've discussed issues such as RC pre-V2 moral theology, the Divine Liturgy, the Eastern Catholics and their history with Orthodoxy vs Rome, the LXX vs the Masoretic, modalism, the Talmud, the Zohar, early Jewish and Christian differences, notably Justin the Philosopher's Dialogue with Trypho the Jew...and a lot more. He knows all the books I've read on Orthodoxy (The Orthodox Church; A Second Look at the Second Coming, the Catechism of the Orthodox Church, the Orthodox Study Bible, lots more)....and he is very eager to chrismate me ASAP.

Shouldn't I actually go through a course in Orthodoxy first? Isn't that what catechumens do?

When I became a (Traditional) Roman Catholic, I studied with a priest each week for about a year. Isn't that how its done in Orthodoxy too?

I feel very embarassed because Father often introduces me to people as someone who "knows everything", but really, I'm not. I know I have to have gaps in what I know, its only natural.

How do I handle this situation? Is it right for me to suggest to a priest that maybe he isn't handling things the right way? Isn't he supposed to know?

Maybe he does, and thinks you know more than you think you do.  but I would bring it up with him for his thoughts.

[Xenia1918]

I have something that has been bothering me for some time, I suppose I should be happy that things are moving along so quickly for me in becoming Orthodox, but I'm not, I'm concerned.

I became involved with an Orthodox parish near me, and the priest is an absolutely wonderful, engaging, kind person. We've had many long chats about theological issues (he knows my entire background with Orthodox Judaism, Traditional RC, etc)...we've discussed issues such as RC pre-V2 moral theology, the Divine Liturgy, the Eastern Catholics and their history with Orthodoxy vs Rome, the LXX vs the Masoretic, modalism, the Talmud, the Zohar, early Jewish and Christian differences, notably Justin the Philosopher's Dialogue with Trypho the Jew...and a lot more. He knows all the books I've read on Orthodoxy (The Orthodox Church; A Second Look at the Second Coming, the Catechism of the Orthodox Church, the Orthodox Study Bible, lots more)....and he is very eager to chrismate me ASAP.

Shouldn't I actually go through a course in Orthodoxy first? Isn't that what catechumens do?

When I became a (Traditional) Roman Catholic, I studied with a priest each week for about a year. Isn't that how its done in Orthodoxy too?

I feel very embarassed because Father often introduces me to people as someone who "knows everything", but really, I'm not. I know I have to have gaps in what I know, its only natural.

How do I handle this situation? Is it right for me to suggest to a priest that maybe he isn't handling things the right way? Isn't he supposed to know?

Maybe he does, and thinks you know more than you think you do.  but I would bring it up with him for his thoughts.

He quizzed me on the catechism I studied, and seemed satisfied, but I have not been studying Orthodoxy as long as I feel I should have been. I don't feel something like this should be rushed into.

[TheodoraElizabeth3]

Xenia, some parishes don't have "Orthodoxy 101" courses for inquiriers or catechumens. The priest will just meet with inquirers/catechumens on a regular basis, assign readings, talk with them, and of course, regular church attendance is a must.

How long have you been studying Orthodoxy?

You'd best tell the priest you'd like to just attend services longer and go from there.

The only "quickie" conversions I know of are at parishes that are, um, more ethnic without a lot of converts, mostly those due to marriage.

[Achronos]

If you're priest says your ready, you're probably ready. It sounds like you've done your homework, but Orthodoxy doesn't end at the catechumen stage, it keeps growing.

I almost got baptised in less than 2 months. That was way too soon and fast for me.

[Xenia1918]

Xenia, some parishes don't have "Orthodoxy 101" courses for inquiriers or catechumens. The priest will just meet with inquirers/catechumens on a regular basis, assign readings, talk with them, and of course, regular church attendance is a must.

How long have you been studying Orthodoxy?

You'd best tell the priest you'd like to just attend services longer and go from there.

The only "quickie" conversions I know of are at parishes that are, um, more ethnic without a lot of converts, mostly those due to marriage.

Well, actually, in a sense I've been studying Orthodoxy for 20 years, because 20 years ago I met a very good friend (a convert to Russian Orthodoxy from Anglicanism), who has continuously taught me much about Orthodoxy, and it has only been in the last few months that I began actively reading and studying on my own, almost non-stop.

The thing I find weird is that my friend Masha talked to me a lot about Orthodoxy, all the time, even when I thought I wasn't interested years ago, but I seem to have retained everything she told me! She had a way of explaining things and telling stories about Orthodoxy, that really sunk in with me (she would have made a great teacher!) She also had given me a lot of icons, which I still have, stored away (my husband said he's going to dig them out.) I was a practicing Roman Catholic at the time, and I remember how upset she was with me when I decided to leave the traditional RCC for Eastern Catholicism.
When I do become Orthodox I would love it more than anything if she could be my godmother, but she is in her 80s now, so that's unlikely.

[IsmiLiora]

If you don't have a godmother yet, you can tell the priest that you want to become more a part of church life and get to know the people in the church before taking a step forward.

But I mean, if he thinks you're ready...you can tell him you feel like you want to know more before you take the step. If YOU Feel like you're not ready, you aren't ready.

I was apparently ready for chrismation after a few months of being a catechumen. We're still praying about who is going to be my godparents, and I'm thankful for the time for growth in church life, study, prayer, and getting to know everyone. I'd love to take communion ASAP, but I don't want to rush into it. But what Aposphet said is true too: you don't stop growing once you're chrismated. And you don't need to know EVERYTHING right away. My priest said that sadly enough, we could put some of the cradles to shame (and that's really saying a lot, because we just started learning a few months ago. But our hearts are in the church already and we agree with the tenets.)

[Philoumenos]

Xenia1918,

   "In the ancient Church, the catechumenate, or time during which one is a catechumen, often lasted for as much as three years and included not only participation in the divine services but also catechesis, formal instruction from a teacher, often the bishop or appointed catechist. Exorcists often performed the catechetical role, as well, following their initial prayers of exorcism over the one being made a catechumen, which is the traditional manner of receiving a catechumen into the community of the Church.

    Catechumens are understood to be Christians upon beginning their catechumenate, (Marc1152) and should they die before baptism, they are traditionally given an Orthodox funeral.

    As the Church eventually became the majority religion of the lands in which it sojourned, the catechumenate as an institution gradually died out in many places, as most Christians were being baptized shortly after birth. As Orthodoxy has moved into the West and Far East and begun gaining converts to the faith, the catechumenate has been significantly rejuvenated.

    Catechetical instruction in Orthodoxy in America does not typically last the three years which was common in the time of St. John Chrysostom, but typically can last from six months to a year, depending on the practice of the bishop, his jurisdiction, and the level of spiritual maturity of the catechumen. Local parish priests typically oversee the catechesis of those preparing to be received into the Church."

From http://orthodoxwiki.org/Catechumen

All the best to you!

[deusveritasest]

I have experience of some not so swift priests misinterpreting intellectual knowledge of Orthodoxy as a sign of spiritual maturity. So you need to be sure to speak with him about your spiritual life and be very clear about it and its independence from your intellectual knowledge.

[Xenia1918]

I have experience of some not so swift priests misinterpreting intellectual knowledge of Orthodoxy as a sign of spiritual maturity. So you need to be sure to speak with him about your spiritual life and be very clear about it and its independence from your intellectual knowledge.

Thanks to everyone for all the good advice and comments! The above comment is actually what I was thinking in my mind and heart. I think Deusveritasest nailed it for me. This is my "issue". I want to spend more time growing in the spiritual life; Father may feel I have the head knowledge, and maybe I do....but I want to spend more time growing spiritually. Maybe I can do that after I'm chrismated, but I feel I'd like to do a lot of that growing beforehand, too.

[deusveritasest]

I have experience of some not so swift priests misinterpreting intellectual knowledge of Orthodoxy as a sign of spiritual maturity. So you need to be sure to speak with him about your spiritual life and be very clear about it and its independence from your intellectual knowledge.

Thanks to everyone for all the good advice and comments! The above comment is actually what I was thinking in my mind and heart. I think Deusveritasest nailed it for me. This is my "issue". I want to spend more time growing in the spiritual life; Father may feel I have the head knowledge, and maybe I do....but I want to spend more time growing spiritually. Maybe I can do that after I'm chrismated, but I feel I'd like to do a lot of that growing beforehand, too.

Please talk to your spiritual father about your spiritual issues. It's very important for him to know. Actually, dealing with your spiritual life is really his #1 job, so if you're not talking to him about it then you are missing out on the most important dimension of your relationship.

[Xenia1918]

I have experience of some not so swift priests misinterpreting intellectual knowledge of Orthodoxy as a sign of spiritual maturity. So you need to be sure to speak with him about your spiritual life and be very clear about it and its independence from your intellectual knowledge.

Thanks to everyone for all the good advice and comments! The above comment is actually what I was thinking in my mind and heart. I think Deusveritasest nailed it for me. This is my "issue". I want to spend more time growing in the spiritual life; Father may feel I have the head knowledge, and maybe I do....but I want to spend more time growing spiritually. Maybe I can do that after I'm chrismated, but I feel I'd like to do a lot of that growing beforehand, too.

Please talk to your spiritual father about your spiritual issues. It's very important for him to know. Actually, dealing with your spiritual life is really his #1 job, so if you're not talking to him about it then you are missing out on the most important dimension of your relationship.

I have been talking to him, actually....I asked him for help with a certain spiritual issue I have, and he has been very helpful.

[deusveritasest]

I have experience of some not so swift priests misinterpreting intellectual knowledge of Orthodoxy as a sign of spiritual maturity. So you need to be sure to speak with him about your spiritual life and be very clear about it and its independence from your intellectual knowledge.

Thanks to everyone for all the good advice and comments! The above comment is actually what I was thinking in my mind and heart. I think Deusveritasest nailed it for me. This is my "issue". I want to spend more time growing in the spiritual life; Father may feel I have the head knowledge, and maybe I do....but I want to spend more time growing spiritually. Maybe I can do that after I'm chrismated, but I feel I'd like to do a lot of that growing beforehand, too.

Please talk to your spiritual father about your spiritual issues. It's very important for him to know. Actually, dealing with your spiritual life is really his #1 job, so if you're not talking to him about it then you are missing out on the most important dimension of your relationship.

I have been talking to him, actually....I asked him for help with a certain spiritual issue I have, and he has been very helpful.

Wonderful! 

[TheodoraElizabeth3]

There's also a great deal to be said for experiencing more of liturgical life. Some priests have a standard of people experiencing a full liturgical year before baptism/chrismation. Especially with the Orthodox rhythm of feasts and fasts. I personally think that everyone needs to experience at least one Great Lent before becoming Orthodox, but that's just my opinion.  I've known people to kind of freak, in a spiritual way, during their first Great Lent and needed time to settle down and into things, if you know what I'm trying to say, although not doing it very well.

As a previous poster said, head knowledge is one thing, but you also have to pay attention to your spiritual life. Your priest also needs to see your way of life, so to speak, do you attend services on a regular basis (of course, there are people who miss because of work or other reasonable issues), etc. Someone could have all the head knowledge, but if their spiritual life isn't in the right place, and they don't bother to attend church much because they don't feel like it - well, I think pretty much all of us would agree in that case, someone wouldn't be ready to enter the Church.

[Alveus Lacuna]

Just tell him you don't think you're ready and you need more time. If he's listening, he'll probably slow things down. Trust me, there is no rush. In Orthodoxy, slow and steady wins the race.

[Xenia1918]

There's also a great deal to be said for experiencing more of liturgical life. Some priests have a standard of people experiencing a full liturgical year before baptism/chrismation. Especially with the Orthodox rhythm of feasts and fasts. I personally think that everyone needs to experience at least one Great Lent before becoming Orthodox, but that's just my opinion.  I've known people to kind of freak, in a spiritual way, during their first Great Lent and needed time to settle down and into things, if you know what I'm trying to say, although not doing it very well.

As a previous poster said, head knowledge is one thing, but you also have to pay attention to your spiritual life. Your priest also needs to see your way of life, so to speak, do you attend services on a regular basis (of course, there are people who miss because of work or other reasonable issues), etc. Someone could have all the head knowledge, but if their spiritual life isn't in the right place, and they don't bother to attend church much because they don't feel like it - well, I think pretty much all of us would agree in that case, someone wouldn't be ready to enter the Church.

One thing I already discussed with Father, because I was concerned about it, is Great Lent. I know that meat, dairy, fish, wine and oil are prohibited. The problem is, because of a health issue I have where I can't have a lot of high fat foods, I already avoid oil, and also alcohol (I can have a little of high fat foods and alcoholic drinks, but not much or it triggers a GI attack.)

And I'm already a vegan (no animal products of any kind)...so he joked that "maybe we'll have to make you eat meat for Lent, as a sacrifice". lol But basically it means I'll have to give something else up since not eating meat, dairy, wine and oil is not really a sacrifice for me. I bought a cookbook for Lent put out by St Nectarios Press and to be honest, I'm really looking forward to Great Lent! (I know I sound insane to everyone else though. lol)

[TheodoraElizabeth3]

There's also a great deal to be said for experiencing more of liturgical life. Some priests have a standard of people experiencing a full liturgical year before baptism/chrismation. Especially with the Orthodox rhythm of feasts and fasts. I personally think that everyone needs to experience at least one Great Lent before becoming Orthodox, but that's just my opinion.  I've known people to kind of freak, in a spiritual way, during their first Great Lent and needed time to settle down and into things, if you know what I'm trying to say, although not doing it very well.

As a previous poster said, head knowledge is one thing, but you also have to pay attention to your spiritual life. Your priest also needs to see your way of life, so to speak, do you attend services on a regular basis (of course, there are people who miss because of work or other reasonable issues), etc. Someone could have all the head knowledge, but if their spiritual life isn't in the right place, and they don't bother to attend church much because they don't feel like it - well, I think pretty much all of us would agree in that case, someone wouldn't be ready to enter the Church.

One thing I already discussed with Father, because I was concerned about it, is Great Lent. I know that meat, dairy, fish, wine and oil are prohibited. The problem is, because of a health issue I have where I can't have a lot of high fat foods, I already avoid oil, and also alcohol (I can have a little of high fat foods and alcoholic drinks, but not much or it triggers a GI attack.)

And I'm already a vegan (noi animal products of any kind)...so he joked that "maybe we'll have to make you eat meat for Lent, as a sacrifice". lol But basically it means I'll have to give something else up since not eating meat, dairy, wine and oil is not really a sacrifice for me. I bought a cookbook for Lent put out by St Nectarios Press and to be honest, I'm really looking forward to Great Lent! (I know I sound insane to everyone else though. lol)

A better cookbook, and much more recent, is When You Fast: Recipes for Lenten Seasons by Catherine Mandell from SVS Press.

Or just find a favorite ethnic cuisine, get a cookbook for that and look through it. I love Middle Eastern and that's my primary fasting food.

I stopped watching TV right before the Nativity Fast right before I become Orthodox eight years ago, and I ended getting rid of my TV - for good!

So, maybe you give up TV. Or reading non-Orthodox books. Or music stations on the radio and only listen to the news and Ancient Faith Radio. Or maybe have silence at home. This is in addition to increased prayer. Or maybe you don't talk so much at work (I've done that and it seriously freaks my coworkers out! ).

You could also give up all beverages but water. I know someone who was diabetic who did that.

You'll find something. Frankly, I have a Catholic coworker who was looking to give something up for Lent this year. I suggested giving up TV. She flipped on me and said that was too hardcore and too much of a sacrifice. Turns out TV is her life and she never picks up a book.

I don't know what sort of Lent you were used with the Trad Catholics, but Orthodox Great Lent is pretty intense.

You'll find many of us *love* Great Lent. I don't miss a service. Whether my voice holds out (I'm choir and serve as a reader) is another matter...

[Xenia1918]

There's also a great deal to be said for experiencing more of liturgical life. Some priests have a standard of people experiencing a full liturgical year before baptism/chrismation. Especially with the Orthodox rhythm of feasts and fasts. I personally think that everyone needs to experience at least one Great Lent before becoming Orthodox, but that's just my opinion.  I've known people to kind of freak, in a spiritual way, during their first Great Lent and needed time to settle down and into things, if you know what I'm trying to say, although not doing it very well.

As a previous poster said, head knowledge is one thing, but you also have to pay attention to your spiritual life. Your priest also needs to see your way of life, so to speak, do you attend services on a regular basis (of course, there are people who miss because of work or other reasonable issues), etc. Someone could have all the head knowledge, but if their spiritual life isn't in the right place, and they don't bother to attend church much because they don't feel like it - well, I think pretty much all of us would agree in that case, someone wouldn't be ready to enter the Church.

One thing I already discussed with Father, because I was concerned about it, is Great Lent. I know that meat, dairy, fish, wine and oil are prohibited. The problem is, because of a health issue I have where I can't have a lot of high fat foods, I already avoid oil, and also alcohol (I can have a little of high fat foods and alcoholic drinks, but not much or it triggers a GI attack.)

And I'm already a vegan (noi animal products of any kind)...so he joked that "maybe we'll have to make you eat meat for Lent, as a sacrifice". lol But basically it means I'll have to give something else up since not eating meat, dairy, wine and oil is not really a sacrifice for me. I bought a cookbook for Lent put out by St Nectarios Press and to be honest, I'm really looking forward to Great Lent! (I know I sound insane to everyone else though. lol)

A better cookbook, and much more recent, is When You Fast: Recipes for Lenten Seasons by Catherine Mandell from SVS Press.

Or just find a favorite ethnic cuisine, get a cookbook for that and look through it. I love Middle Eastern and that's my primary fasting food.

I stopped watching TV right before the Nativity Fast right before I become Orthodox eight years ago, and I ended getting rid of my TV - for good!

So, maybe you give up TV. Or reading non-Orthodox books. Or music stations on the radio and only listen to the news and Ancient Faith Radio. Or maybe have silence at home. This is in addition to increased prayer. Or maybe you don't talk so much at work (I've done that and it seriously freaks my coworkers out! ).

You could also give up all beverages but water. I know someone who was diabetic who did that.

You'll find something. Frankly, I have a Catholic coworker who was looking to give something up for Lent this year. I suggested giving up TV. She flipped on me and said that was too hardcore and too much of a sacrifice. Turns out TV is her life and she never picks up a book.

I don't know what sort of Lent you were used with the Trad Catholics, but Orthodox Great Lent is pretty intense.

You'll find many of us *love* Great Lent. I don't miss a service. Whether my voice holds out (I'm choir and serve as a reader) is another matter...

I already drink only water, for health reasons, and I don't watch TV. I think the internet is what I'll have to give up!

[deusveritasest]

You'll find something. Frankly, I have a Catholic coworker who was looking to give something up for Lent this year. I suggested giving up TV. She flipped on me and said that was too hardcore and too much of a sacrifice. Turns out TV is her life and she never picks up a book.

Definitely! I always think looking beyond the fasting of food to other things is a good idea. The Lent before I was initiated into the EOC I gave up the internet and it was a great experience.

[LBK]

The Lent before I was initiated into the EOC I gave up the internet and it was a great experience

.

And now, when you're neither EOC nor OO, where do you stand? 

[Philoumenos]

Frankly, I have a Catholic coworker who was looking to give something up for Lent this year. I suggested giving up TV. She flipped on me and said that was too hardcore and too much of a sacrifice. Turns out TV is her life and she never picks up a book.
 

This is sad...  

And nauseating...

I feel for her...

The Lent before I was initiated into the EOC I gave up the internet and it was a great experience

.

And now, when you're neither EOC nor OO, where do you stand? 

On the ground?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DetchjEjUZA
 

[deusveritasest]

The Lent before I was initiated into the EOC I gave up the internet and it was a great experience

.

And now, when you're neither EOC nor OO, where do you stand? 

What do you mean?

[Tikhon.of.Colorado]

You'll find something. Frankly, I have a Catholic coworker who was looking to give something up for Lent this year. I suggested giving up TV. She flipped on me and said that was too hardcore and too much of a sacrifice. Turns out TV is her life and she never picks up a book.

Definitely! I always think looking beyond the fasting of food to other things is a good idea. The Lent before I was initiated into the EOC I gave up the internet and it was a great experience.

really?!  I attempted to do that, but I am far too weak. 

[Father Peter]

I do not think a long catechumenate is necessary at all. It is not an academic course that we need to pass.

How can a person expect to grow spiritually and be spiritually mature enough to be baptised when they are not baptised? Baptism is a gift not a reward.

The catechumenate is to allow a person to consider the cost of Orthodox discipleship, and to have a firm enough knowledge of the Faith so that they can honestly express their commitment to it.

If a person is already a non-Orthodox believer with commitment, and has been studying Orthodoxy, then what matters is that they commit to the journey, not try to travel it outside the experience of the sacraments and God's grace.

What does St Justin Martyr say..

As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly . . . are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated.

This does not require a long catechumenate unless the person has reservations about some Orthodox doctrine or practice.

[katherineofdixie]

I stopped watching TV right before the Nativity Fast right before I become Orthodox eight years ago, and I ended getting rid of my TV - for good!

So, maybe you give up TV. Or reading non-Orthodox books. Or music stations on the radio and only listen to the news and Ancient Faith Radio. Or maybe have silence at home. This is in addition to increased prayer. Or maybe you don't talk so much at work (I've done that and it seriously freaks my coworkers out! ).

...I suggested giving up TV. She flipped on me and said that was too hardcore and too much of a sacrifice. Turns out TV is her life and she never picks up a book.

Our priest always advises the parishioners to turn off the tv and the internet, as well as read only spiritual books during Lent. It was surprisingly hard to turn off the tv, harder than not eating meat and I loves my cheeseburgers!

[Xenia1918]

I stopped watching TV right before the Nativity Fast right before I become Orthodox eight years ago, and I ended getting rid of my TV - for good!

So, maybe you give up TV. Or reading non-Orthodox books. Or music stations on the radio and only listen to the news and Ancient Faith Radio. Or maybe have silence at home. This is in addition to increased prayer. Or maybe you don't talk so much at work (I've done that and it seriously freaks my coworkers out! ).

...I suggested giving up TV. She flipped on me and said that was too hardcore and too much of a sacrifice. Turns out TV is her life and she never picks up a book.

Our priest always advises the parishioners to turn off the tv and the internet, as well as read only spiritual books during Lent. It was surprisingly hard to turn off the tv, harder than not eating meat and I loves my cheeseburgers!

I eat veggie burgers with soy cheese. Sounds gross but they're really very good (though it sort of defeats the purpose of "sacrificing" for Great Lent if you like them!)

[Alveus Lacuna]

I eat veggie burgers with soy cheese. Sounds gross but they're really very good (though it sort of defeats the purpose of "sacrificing" for Great Lent if you like them!)

Veggie burgers usually have eggs in them to hold them together. If they don't they usually have some gross chemical compounds doing the job.

[Xenia1918]

I eat veggie burgers with soy cheese. Sounds gross but they're really very good (though it sort of defeats the purpose of "sacrificing" for Great Lent if you like them!)

Veggie burgers usually have eggs in them to hold them together. If they don't they usually have some gross chemical compounds doing the job.

I use vegan ones, hence, no eggs. One way to find out without having to read the ingredient list is to look for a "kosher PARVE" hechsher on it. If its got dairy, it will say Kosher Dairy (a kosher symbol with a D next to it.) Parve means it has neither meat nor dairy in it.

[primuspilus]

*blech* 

"Give it to us raw, and wrrrrriggling!"

primuspilus

[Xenia1918]

*blech* 

"Give it to us raw, and wrrrrriggling!"

primuspilus

Haha! My late father in law (may he rest in peace) was a real character. He'd go into a steakhouse and order a steak, and when they asked how he wanted it done, he'd sometimes say, "Knock off the horns and slap it on a plate!" 

[primuspilus]

Haha! My late father in law (may he rest in peace) was a real character. He'd go into a steakhouse and order a steak, and when they asked how he wanted it done, he'd sometimes say, "Knock off the horns and slap it on a plate

A wise man

[Alveus Lacuna]

"Give it to us raw, and wrrrrriggling!"

Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

[katherineofdixie]

*blech* 

"Give it to us raw, and wrrrrriggling!"

primuspilus

Ewwwww...

[primuspilus]

That was Gollum, not me

Anyways, like I said in a previous thread, Praise God, and pass the BBQ sauce.....

primuspilus

[pasadi97]

If the priest tells you, you are ready, then God tells you through priest you are ready. Nothing and nobody stays in a way of what your priest appointed by God says unless he teaches you heresy, then I don't know.

So don't even think you know better than God. If God says 2 seconds and you are Orthodox, then believe me, 2 seconds is enough.

Beeing accepted as Eastern orthodox is before anything a decision of God to accept you in Heaven where is only Eastern orthodox Church and if God decided in 2 seconds, better you say yes. To be accepted in EOC means in my understanding that parents and you have done something right.

[primuspilus]

In all seriousness, I knew I was ready very early into my studies. I'd barricade myself in prayer first. Even though Im not yet converted, I'd say that it'd be better taking a little longer and being sure than go fast and have doubts creep in.

primuspilus

[Philoumenos]

I do not think a long catechumenate is necessary at all. It is not an academic course that we need to pass.

How can a person expect to grow spiritually and be spiritually mature enough to be baptised when they are not baptised? Baptism is a gift not a reward.

The catechumenate is to allow a person to consider the cost of Orthodox discipleship, and to have a firm enough knowledge of the Faith so that they can honestly express their commitment to it.

If a person is already a non-Orthodox believer with commitment, and has been studying Orthodoxy, then what matters is that they commit to the journey, not try to travel it outside the experience of the sacraments and God's grace.

What does St Justin Martyr say..

As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly . . . are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated.

This does not require a long catechumenate unless the person has reservations about some Orthodox doctrine or practice.

I really appreciated this response.

It made me think of Pentecost:


"Men and brethren, what shall we do?"

Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."

And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation." Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.

And they continued steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers.


I think you're probably ready Xenia. Why wait?

You know you're not messing around here.

"Be saved from this perverse generation."

One thing I'm curious about though: Is your presbyter very impressed and excited to have you in his congregation because you are (or perceive yourself to be) a Jew? Is he (for lack of a better term) a 'Jew worshiper'?

If this is the case... perhaps you should make him wait!

[Alpo]

When I met a local priest for the first time in private he seemed to be ready to chrismate me right away. I met him maybe two or three times before chrismation and the catechumenate lasted only couple of months. It would have probably been even shorter if I wasn't a little hesitant to convert so quickly. I study theology in a local university and I had attended in that parish so regularly that the priest said that he had assumed that I'm already a member of the Church but I still think that it is a little weird that people are chrismated so easily. I think a little longer catechumenate and a little more closer contact with the local clergy would have saved me from a lot of trouble.

[Father Peter]

What trouble would it have saved you from?

I am an advocate of 'right length' catechumenates, and this depends entirely on the person concerned.

If a person is convinced of the truth of Orthodoxy, and has an appropriate level of understanding and knowledge, then I am not sure what more is required. This may take a month, but it may take a year.

[katherineofdixie]

I am an advocate of 'right length' catechumenates, and this depends entirely on the person concerned.

If a person is convinced of the truth of Orthodoxy, and has an appropriate level of understanding and knowledge, then I am not sure what more is required. This may take a month, but it may take a year.

Good point, but I still think that experiencing a liturgical year and Great Lent is a good idea.

[Alpo]

What trouble would it have saved you from?

Let's just say that it might have taught me how to live Orthodoxy as opposed to how to theoretically speculate about Orthodoxy. I'm not really confident to discuss this in public.

[Father Peter]

Perhaps, but it is not necessary.

How can a person who is not a baptised Orthodox properly experience the liturgical year or Great Lent?

If we believe that the grace of baptism is required to properly live the Orthodox life then all experience outside of Orthodoxy is not properly experience of Orthodoxy.

Alpo, I am still a beginner after 17 years. I am not sure that waiting to begin the journey is necessary unless there are particular issues. The journey is hard enough. We need all the spiritual resources which are available to the Orthodox Christian as soon as possible. (Note: as soon as possible, as soon as appropriate. I am not an advocate of undue haste.)

[TheodoraElizabeth3]

The Antiochians in N. America must have experienced some issues from people becoming Orthodox too soon -  otherwise the booklet for the reception of converts wouldn't have a letter from Met. Philip in the front, requiring at least six months between beginning to attend and entering the Church.

[Philoumenos]

The Antiochians in N. America must have experienced some issues from people becoming Orthodox too soon -  otherwise the booklet for the reception of converts wouldn't have a letter from Met. Philip in the front, requiring at least six months between beginning to attend and entering the Church.

I wonder to what extent the catechumenate was established to combat the influence of Arianism?

(I'm pretty sure) we don't see it in the NT... This made me wonder -- when was its beginning? And what was it a reaction to or why was it deemed to be necessary in the first place?

The example of Pentecost (and others in the N.T.) show: Believe, be Baptized, be Chrismated through the laying-on of hands, receive the Holy Spirit.

All on the same day.

Anyone?

[TheodoraElizabeth3]

From everything I've read, Arianism had nothing to do with it. The early, persecuted Church wanted to be very sure of whom they were letting into the Church. The catechumenate was to make sure spies and enemies were not infiltrating the Church to betray it to the authorities.

And baptismal sponsors stood surety for those entering the Church, as a witness that the candidate was legit, led a Christian life, etc.

That's what I've read various places, anyway.

[Philoumenos]

From everything I've read, Arianism had nothing to do with it. The early, persecuted Church wanted to be very sure of whom they were letting into the Church. The catechumenate was to make sure spies and enemies were not infiltrating the Church to betray it to the authorities.

And baptismal sponsors stood surety for those entering the Church, as a witness that the candidate was legit, led a Christian life, etc.

That's what I've read various places, anyway.

Thanks for that.

In this context... perhaps it's a good idea after all.

This is a tough one.

[pasadi97]

To make it simpler, if not in Eastern orthodox land the option left is in Error Land very Possible in death land if not Holy Communion or in Hell Land if not baptized. Why would you want to spend time there or to enlarge the time spent there thinking at what?

Thwe only danger is comming to eternal life land and then going back to death land and if this is the case you need to come back from error land to eternal life land.

[deusveritasest]

You'll find something. Frankly, I have a Catholic coworker who was looking to give something up for Lent this year. I suggested giving up TV. She flipped on me and said that was too hardcore and too much of a sacrifice. Turns out TV is her life and she never picks up a book.

Definitely! I always think looking beyond the fasting of food to other things is a good idea. The Lent before I was initiated into the EOC I gave up the internet and it was a great experience.

really?!  I attempted to do that, but I am far too weak. 

I didn't do it without any amount of failure. Roughly, I succeeded the first 1/3 of Lent, fell in the middle 1/3, and then restored the discipline in the last 1/3.

[Father Peter]

If the Antiochians in the US are instructed to baptise after 6 months from FIRST attendance then that is not a lengthy catechumenate.

It would be a rare person who walks in the door of an Orthodox Church for the first time and asks that day to be baptised. Much more likely that they attend for a couple of months while reading materials for themselves, and then ask to become a catechumen. So there is more of a minimum period for the catechumenate of 3 months, which is the minimum I would think reasonable.

Father Peter

[Agabus]

If the Antiochians in the US are instructed to baptise after 6 months from FIRST attendance then that is not a lengthy catechumenate.

I was received after a seven-month catechumenate in an Antiochian church (8 months at the parish); however, I had more than a year's regular attendance at another church beforehand and nearly five years of less official inquiry.

Other people at my parish have been catechumen for more than a year and were only just received or have not yet been received for whatever reason (in one case, the woman wanted to wait for family reasons). It is ultimately a pastoral decision, though in my limited experience -- I have more experience with churches outside our diocese than within -- I don't know many priests who would fill the font and reach for the chrism after only six months. Perhaps this is more widespread in other areas...The U.S. is a very big place.

[Father Peter]

What is a person supposed to learn during a whole year of catechumenate though?

We don't need to pass exams on our Faith, and we cannot experience the Faith before baptism. So what is the catechumen doing?

There is a need to have an understanding of the main points of the Faith, but is this more than would be gained by reading and agreeing with the Catechetical Lectures of St Cyril? If that was what he considered necessary and it took only the period of Lent, then what else is required?

I'm not in favour of haste, but the Christian life begins properly with baptism. I keep being reminded of the Ethiopian Eunuch.

"See, here is water. What prevents me being baptised?"

[katherineofdixie]

What is a person supposed to learn during a whole year of catechumenate though?

We don't need to pass exams on our Faith, and we cannot experience the Faith before baptism. So what is the catechumen doing?

There is a need to have an understanding of the main points of the Faith, but is this more than would be gained by reading and agreeing with the Catechetical Lectures of St Cyril? If that was what he considered necessary and it took only the period of Lent, then what else is required?

I'm not in favour of haste, but the Christian life begins properly with baptism. I keep being reminded of the Ethiopian Eunuch.

"See, here is water. What prevents me being baptised?"

All good points, but there is also learning about what is involved in "living the faith," as alpo said,

Let's just say that it might have taught me how to live Orthodoxy as opposed to how to theoretically speculate about Orthodoxy.

Now you may say that we cannot live the Faith unless we are baptized, but if we attend as many services as we can during our catechumenate and experience "an Orthodox year," we receive heart knowledge, as it were, as well as head knowledge, as well as gaining an understanding of how the parish functions and developing relationships.

In any case, I'm really glad that it is an individual decision by the priest, based on his knowledge and prayer for a particular catechumen, and not a "one-size-fits-all."

[Father Peter]

Yes, it always needs to be an individual pastoral decision. Some of my own catechumens are quite quickly (but still after some months) received into the Church, while others may indeed take a year.

[Xenia1918]

In my own case, the real reason why I feel I'm not ready is not that I don't understand Orthodox theology....its more a case of not knowing what the proper things to do and say are at certain times!

I spent a few years in the Eastern Rite Catholic church, so I was not totally in culture shock the first time I went into an Orthodox church (that really helped a lot, believe me!), but I'm never clear or what to do/say when.

In the Eastern Rite Catholic Church, it was customary during ordinary times to greet each other with Slava Isuzu Christu, with the response being, Slava na viki! But I have no idea what it is in the Orthodox churches that don't use Slavonic, for example...I only know the Greek Pascha greetings because I saw My Big Fat Greek Wedding..

[genesisone]

I'm not in favour of haste, but the Christian life begins properly with baptism. I keep being reminded of the Ethiopian Eunuch.

"See, here is water. What prevents me being baptised?"

Don't forget that the eunuch was coming from worshipping in Jerusalem, and was studying the prophecies of Isaiah when he and Philip encountered each other. He was well prepared.

And on another point: at least here in the West, most who are received into the Church come from a different understanding of Christianity. The "unlearning" process is often harder and longer than the "learning".

[katherineofdixie]

[...at least here in the West, most who are received into the Church come from a different understanding of Christianity. The "unlearning" process is often harder and longer than the "learning".

True - good point. We need to be "de-programmed!"

[TheodoraElizabeth3]

If the Antiochians in the US are instructed to baptise after 6 months from FIRST attendance then that is not a lengthy catechumenate.

That is the MINIMUM ("at least six months"). And there is a difference between the length of catechumenate and how long you're attending before being made a catechumen. I have friends at an Antiochian parish where the time as a catechumen is 12-18 *months* but the length of time a person attends before they're made a catechumen differs. The Antiochian parish where I was chrismated had a priest that required a minimum of six months' attendance before you became a catechumen. I was chrismated six months longer.

My current OCA parish makes folks catechumens a bit sooner, usually after several months of regular attendance and regular catechesis. The actual catechesis program is about nine months, allowing for gaps due to holidays, Holy Week/Pascha, etc.

And if you stop attending/classes due to being unsure, crisis of faith, etc., you might pick up where you left off with the classes, but you'll be a catechumen longer than you would have originally been, since obviously there are issues that need to be dealt with.

While these are general guidelines, in some cases people go longer before chrismation. Some just aren't sure once finishing their formal catechesis is done.

[Xenia1918]

I was watching a chrismation on Youtube, that took place in Russia. Are there any points in an American Orthodox chrismation where you kneel?

[pasadi97]

The base of faith is this:

1.You are not baptized probably destination Hell
2.You don't take Holy Communion, you probably don't have life in yourself.
3.You don't confess your sins you have to find another way to erase them . Confession is the way let by God to erase sin.

Believe it or not, even after tens of years I do not know always what to respond at Holy Liturgy. Somehow I don't feel like I am less orthodox because of this or am I? The idea is that it did not occur to me that is important to go deep into the meaning of Holy Liturgy. Now that you did bring up this point you started to make me think.

[TheodoraElizabeth3]

I was watching a chrismation on Youtube, that took place in Russia. Are there any points in an American Orthodox chrismation where you kneel?

Yes, when you receive absolution for the confession you did before chrismation (usually sometime that week).

[Xenia1918]

I was watching a chrismation on Youtube, that took place in Russia. Are there any points in an American Orthodox chrismation where you kneel?

Yes, when you receive absolution for the confession you did before chrismation (usually sometime that week).

What does a person do when they have a knee injury that prevents them from being able to kneel?

[Philoumenos]

I was watching a chrismation on Youtube, that took place in Russia. Are there any points in an American Orthodox chrismation where you kneel?

Yes, when you receive absolution for the confession you did before chrismation (usually sometime that week).

What does a person do when they have a knee injury that prevents them from being able to kneel?

As in: It's impossible for you to kneel?

Or it really hurts to kneel?

[Xenia1918]

I was watching a chrismation on Youtube, that took place in Russia. Are there any points in an American Orthodox chrismation where you kneel?

Yes, when you receive absolution for the confession you did before chrismation (usually sometime that week).

What does a person do when they have a knee injury that prevents them from being able to kneel?

As in: It's impossible for you to kneel?

Or it really hurts to kneel?

It is extremely painful to kneel, and if I do, I can't get up without a lot of assistance. Its kind of embarassing, and I'd hate to have to deal with that in front of a lot of people. 

[Philoumenos]

I was watching a chrismation on Youtube, that took place in Russia. Are there any points in an American Orthodox chrismation where you kneel?

Yes, when you receive absolution for the confession you did before chrismation (usually sometime that week).

What does a person do when they have a knee injury that prevents them from being able to kneel?

As in: It's impossible for you to kneel?

Or it really hurts to kneel?

It is extremely painful to kneel, and if I do, I can't get up without a lot of assistance. Its kind of embarassing, and I'd hate to have to deal with that in front of a lot of people. 

All the better and glory to God!

I'd do it if I was you.

But - I'm not exactly normal either am I?

[Wyatt]

If you wait until you have a firm grasp of Orthodoxy before you enter the Church then you never will. Learning, especially in terms of theology, is a life long process. Since entering the Roman Catholic Church in 2007, I know way way more about RC theology than I did then, even though I went through the classes. However, I know that, even though I know much more than I did then, I still have just barely scratched the surface and really don't know much at all. So my advice would be that the best way to familiarize yourself and grow in the Orthodox faith would be to dive right in to Orthodoxy.

[pasadi97]

Actually Philoumenos, you have more power than you think
See, if power of all humanity is 1, including high power figures, the power of smallest sick angel is 1 billion. So if anybody from humanity will be deceived and fight along sick angel their forces are in the maybe in 10 with n zeros, but this is a finite number.

So if you pray to God , God has infinite power and nobody can stand against the decision of God. Romania had Elder arsenie Boca and he prayed for Romania and sick angel came and said, you defeated me and God will not let me draw Romania into Serbian war and actually if we think because of the prayer, the power of the Elder was above any high power figure even higher than sick angel. The Elder did overwrite the decision taken in any cabinet you want.

[Philoumenos]

Actually Philoumenos, you have more power than you think
See, if power of all humanity is 1, including high power figures, the power of smallest sick angel is 1 billion. So if anybody from humanity will be deceived and fight along sick angel their forces are in the maybe in 10 with n zeros, but this is a finite number.

So if you pray to God , God has infinite power and nobody can stand against the decision of God. Romania had Elder arsenie Boca and he prayed for Romania and sick angel came and said, you defeated me and God will not let me draw Romania into Serbian war and actually if we think because of the prayer, the power of the Elder was above any high power figure even higher than sick angel. The Elder did overwrite the decision taken in any cabinet you want.

Thanks pasadi97,

Are you Romanian?

[pasadi97]

You're welcome. Yes I am from Romania.

So imagine for Greece how would YOU like to be, economically, demographically, faith wise and such and also for Earth and pray for that and it will be like you're praying. Not that you would imagine something bad for someone but everything good is like an arrow that goes to the target and anything bad is like a bird that goes from tree to tree and can come back.

[peteprint]

I do not think a long catechumenate is necessary at all. It is not an academic course that we need to pass.

How can a person expect to grow spiritually and be spiritually mature enough to be baptised when they are not baptised? Baptism is a gift not a reward.

The catechumenate is to allow a person to consider the cost of Orthodox discipleship, and to have a firm enough knowledge of the Faith so that they can honestly express their commitment to it.

If a person is already a non-Orthodox believer with commitment, and has been studying Orthodoxy, then what matters is that they commit to the journey, not try to travel it outside the experience of the sacraments and God's grace.

What does St Justin Martyr say..

As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly . . . are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated.

This does not require a long catechumenate unless the person has reservations about some Orthodox doctrine or practice.

Father I agree with you.  I don't see in the early Church anything about a waiting period to become a Christian.  The Apostles shared the Gospel to people and those who believed were baptized.  If a Christian backslides later, or becomes an apostate that is something that God will deal with.

A reasonable catachumenate makes sense, but requiring someone to prove their sincerity over a period of time is not in keeping with the Gospel.

[Xenia1918]

I was watching a chrismation on Youtube, that took place in Russia. Are there any points in an American Orthodox chrismation where you kneel?

Yes, when you receive absolution for the confession you did before chrismation (usually sometime that week).

What does a person do when they have a knee injury that prevents them from being able to kneel?

As in: It's impossible for you to kneel?

Or it really hurts to kneel?

It is extremely painful to kneel, and if I do, I can't get up without a lot of assistance. Its kind of embarassing, and I'd hate to have to deal with that in front of a lot of people. 

All the better and glory to God!

I'd do it if I was you.

But - I'm not exactly normal either am I?

No,you're not....but I LOVE it! 

[Wilma]

I reckon that by now you must have been Chrismated? I just wanted to share with you that I too was a catechumen for a very short period of time (1 month or less). I also came from RC background and my priest understood this well because he too is a convert from RC. Trust in your priest! If he thinks you're ready is because you are. In my case, I think my priest knew I needed to be one with Jesus Christ more than anything else. I don't regret it, my life has changed since the very moment I joined the church.

I once read that when you speak with your priest you must let them do much of the talking because they pray that the Holy Spirit guide them through the conversation, and one must be respectful of this and let the Holy Spirit work. It most be the same when they decide to Chrismate catechumens 

[Agabus]

I reckon that by now you must have been Chrismated? I just wanted to share with you that I too was a catechumen for a very short period of time (1 month or less). I also came from RC background and my priest understood this well because he too is a convert from RC. Trust in your priest! If he thinks you're ready is because you are. In my case, I think my priest knew I needed to be one with Jesus Christ more than anything else. I don't regret it, my life has changed since the very moment I joined the church.

I once read that when you speak with your priest you must let them do much of the talking because they pray that the Holy Spirit guide them through the conversation, and one must be respectful of this and let the Holy Spirit work. It most be the same when they decide to Chrismate catechumens 

Don't hold your breath waiting for an answer. She hasn't been active on the site for more than a year.

[Ioannis Climacus]

^ I haven't spoken with her in sometime, but her Facebook page indicates she is still deciding between traditionalist Orthodoxy and sedevacantist Catholicism.

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