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Author Topic: Do the Orthodox disobey God in their practice?  (Read 11525 times) Average Rating: 0
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Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
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« Reply #180 on: July 18, 2011, 07:08:52 PM »

I think I have a duty to terminate a discussion after it has run its course. I think it has been established without any doubt whatsoever that the OP will not be satisfied with any rational explanation or answers to his questions. It is equally clear that the entire range of explanations have been offered; alas, to no avail. Folks, this is becoming a vanity item for the OP and I am considering closing this thread in three days hence. Thanks, Second Chance

Second chance, I think this discussion is very valid, as it is from the words of our savior.  Nobody has posted a valid answer, only examples where people were calling men "Father" and disobeying God.

As an example, there are many Christians who feel the same way.  Wouldn't you want people outside of Eastern Orthodoxy to find a legitimate reason to this question?  Look, even sermon writers say the same thing.

http://www.lectionary.org/EXEG-Concise/NT/ConNT01-Matt/Matt%2023.01-12.htm
When you read verses 8-10 and the explanation, it even addresses the Greek "kathegetai".

None of these answers directly answers two questions.

1) Do the Eastern Orthodox disobey God since God said "Call no man Rabbi, Father, or Master?
2) Do the Eastern Orthodox disobey God since they do not always refer to their priests and bishops as "brethren" as God commanded us to?

They have only given excuses "Paul did it so I can do it", "Tradition did it so I can do it", "That doesn't mean "father" it means "father" ", "The Greek says "kathegetai" I say "kathegetai" and I never sing the song in the Bishops presence that ends with "despota" ". 

Please don't close this thread, because it will only prove that the Eastern Orthodox faith is loaded with excuses for complete disobedience.

It's so direct and so simple. ? 

Sorry to disappoint you but you have received numerous answers to your questions. It is not the fault of your respondents, who have gone to great lengths to give a satisfactory answer, that you have not accepted their input as valid answers. This topic may be one of those things that folks will have to agree to disagree. Unless I see something different happening in this (non)conversation, I will indeed close this thread on Wednesday. Thanks, SC
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« Reply #181 on: July 18, 2011, 11:36:35 PM »

Yesh has been challenged to answer several questions he/she has refused to respond to, and so I think that the thread has become pointless.  It is not a discussion as much as a repetition of the same old complaints which are never satisfied.

I think I have a duty to terminate a discussion after it has run its course. I think it has been established without any doubt whatsoever that the OP will not be satisfied with any rational explanation or answers to his questions. It is equally clear that the entire range of explanations have been offered; alas, to no avail. Folks, this is becoming a vanity item for the OP and I am considering closing this thread in three days hence. Thanks, Second Chance

Second chance, I think this discussion is very valid, as it is from the words of our savior.  Nobody has posted a valid answer, only examples where people were calling men "Father" and disobeying God.

As an example, there are many Christians who feel the same way.  Wouldn't you want people outside of Eastern Orthodoxy to find a legitimate reason to this question?  Look, even sermon writers say the same thing.

http://www.lectionary.org/EXEG-Concise/NT/ConNT01-Matt/Matt%2023.01-12.htm
When you read verses 8-10 and the explanation, it even addresses the Greek "kathegetai".

None of these answers directly answers two questions.

1) Do the Eastern Orthodox disobey God since God said "Call no man Rabbi, Father, or Master?
2) Do the Eastern Orthodox disobey God since they do not always refer to their priests and bishops as "brethren" as God commanded us to?

They have only given excuses "Paul did it so I can do it", "Tradition did it so I can do it", "That doesn't mean "father" it means "father" ", "The Greek says "kathegetai" I say "kathegetai" and I never sing the song in the Bishops presence that ends with "despota" ". 

Please don't close this thread, because it will only prove that the Eastern Orthodox faith is loaded with excuses for complete disobedience.

It's so direct and so simple. ? 

Sorry to disappoint you but you have received numerous answers to your questions. It is not the fault of your respondents, who have gone to great lengths to give a satisfactory answer, that you have not accepted their input as valid answers. This topic may be one of those things that folks will have to agree to disagree. Unless I see something different happening in this (non)conversation, I will indeed close this thread on Wednesday. Thanks, SC
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« Reply #182 on: July 18, 2011, 11:47:20 PM »

Secondly, let's take the 4 synoptic gospels.
1. Matthew - chosen by Christ
2. Mark - chosen by Christ
3. John - chosen by Christ
4. Luke - a disciple of Paul.

There is a difference.
Actually, the Gospel of Mark is attributed to the person of John Mark.
  • John Mark was not one of the Twelve.
  • John Mark was a traveling companion of St. Paul on his first missionary journey. (Acts 12:25)
  • John Mark is also thought to have based his Gospel on the testimony of St. Peter.

Here we have another probable link between the Apostles Peter and Paul, which lends further credence to the belief that the Apostles Peter and Paul preached the same faith and are to be given equal respect. I point this out because Peter was one of the Twelve, together with Matthew and John, the authors of two of the Gospels. If we respect Paul as equal in authority to Peter, who was himself equal in authority to Matthew and John, then, by the transitive property of equality, we have to recognize Paul as equal in authority to Matthew and John. Ergo, your argument that St. Luke's Gospel is somehow different from, and therefore not as worthy of trust as the other three merely because he was a disciple of St. Paul is bunk.
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« Reply #183 on: July 19, 2011, 12:02:53 AM »

The Lord also forbade vain repetition ...
So what are you doing here?
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« Reply #184 on: July 19, 2011, 05:36:54 AM »

What is an elder or bishop if not a "Master/Teacher?" We pay respect to those older than us in the faith who "watch over our souls." What's more hierarchical than being Scripturally compared to sheep who have to have a "pastor."

Even if the Church was completely egalitarian, certain people based on their greater experience, gifts, or age will naturally accrue some authority over the rest (the older siblings looking after the younger, as it were)-even the Amish have their honored elders, don't they? We humans are a hierarchical species, it simply can't be avoided.

Even a child deferring to his parents is calling them "Master/Mistress" in a sense even if they don't say the word (as if woodenly literal obedience is what God is after in the first place). Actions speak louder than words after all.
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« Reply #185 on: July 19, 2011, 10:36:28 AM »

Ok, maybe I missed it, but I think the command from Jesus concerning the "Father" comment is directed to the Apostles themselves, not Christians as a whole. Matthew 23:8–10 kind of makes it clear that no apostle is to call anyone Father, Rabbi, etc because they have complete authority under Christ. Yes he was also speaking to crowds, but really, the verses in question could only be directed to the Apostles, because if we actually think Jesus was talking to everyone with this comment, he owuld be directing the entire crowd not to obey the Apostles. A little common sense is really needed here.

I actually read the entire passage and to me, it's obvious that Christ is giving a direct commandment to the Apostles as they were given authority.

To me, Father, Rabbi, etc is a title of submission and stating the authority of another. As the apostles were directed by Christ Himself, they had no master on Earth as Christ would ascend.

I actually dont see how anyone, if reading the text, could come up with any other explanation. If im wrong, I'd love to hear your ideas.

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« Reply #186 on: July 19, 2011, 10:56:57 AM »

Ok, maybe I missed it, but I think the command from Jesus concerning the "Father" comment is directed to the Apostles themselves, not Christians as a whole. Matthew 23:8–10 kind of makes it clear that no apostle is to call anyone Father, Rabbi, etc because they have complete authority under Christ. Yes he was also speaking to crowds, but really, the verses in question could only be directed to the Apostles, because if we actually think Jesus was talking to everyone with this comment, he owuld be directing the entire crowd not to obey the Apostles. A little common sense is really needed here.

I actually read the entire passage and to me, it's obvious that Christ is giving a direct commandment to the Apostles as they were given authority.

To me, Father, Rabbi, etc is a title of submission and stating the authority of another. As the apostles were directed by Christ Himself, they had no master on Earth as Christ would ascend.

I actually dont see how anyone, if reading the text, could come up with any other explanation. If im wrong, I'd love to hear your ideas.

primuspilus
Actually, I think Jesus was talking to the Pharisees, chiding them for their hypocrisy. He wasn't talking to His disciples at that moment.
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« Reply #187 on: July 19, 2011, 10:59:40 AM »

But
Apostles + Early church brethren + 2000 years of history + the Earth + the Galaxy + anything <<<< to the infinite <<<<< than GOD

GOD said "Do NOT call any man Father, Rabbi, or Master".

The apostles were mere men, and they by far had no perfect life or sinless life.  Peter denied Christ.  Paul murdered Christians at first.   But we have no example of Matthew who recorded that saying "father, master, or Rabbi".
But Jesus never wrote anything that got passed on to posterity. We would therefore have no record of Jesus saying "call no man father" if one of His Apostles had never written it down. We do know that much of what Jesus said wasn't recorded in the Gospels, so why did St. Matthew record the "call no man father" statement yet not record other things Jesus said? If you argue that Matthew recorded this command because he realized its importance, then you essentially admit that you follow this command because of St. Matthew's authority. Why, then, do you not follow the equal authority of the Apostles Peter and Paul? OTOH, if St. Matthew had NOT recorded Christ's "call no man father" command, we would likely have never known of it, and you wouldn't be advocating such strict obedience to this command today.

Therefore, everything in your argument depends on how you relate to the authority of the Apostle Matthew as opposed to the authority of the other Apostles. You're picking and choosing which of those Apostles you will obey and which you will not obey. THAT, my friend, is the very definition of heresy.

Okay, you are seeing what I am saying wrong, and honestly it kind of gets away from the point of the thread.

Let me first state that you agree that Matthew recorded Christ's word of "call no man father".  This is a command from God.

Secondly, let's take the 4 synoptic gospels.
1. Matthew - chosen by Christ
2. Mark - chosen by Christ
3. John - chosen by Christ
4. Luke - a disciple of Paul.

There is a difference.

Now consider the books Luke authored (in context to what we are talking about).
1. Luke
2. Acts

Which book errs (or is different) on the story of the thieves next to our savior on the cross? 
1. Luke

So which apostles do I "trust" more?  The ones Luke wrote "are now apostles", or the ones that God actually chose?

However, you are taking this way way way way out of context to what I am saying anyway.   It's not that I don't trust Luke or Paul, its that I believe their books are not as accurate, complete, or absolute in comparison by EXTREMELY small degrees.   HOWEVER -

1. Paul did NOT tell people to CALL him Father
2. Paul may have not read Matthew, nor understood this command, either way, he did what God told him not to do.

ALSO

Despite what Paul may have done, God directly told people as recorded through his chosen apostle Matthew - "Call no man Father or Master".

The EO call their priests "Father" and bishops "Master".

This reminds me of why I stopped discussing things with Protestants a long time ago.

They'll assert some practice of my church is unBiblical.  When I quote an Old Testament passage to support it, they'll say it doesn't count because it's the Old Testament, and not the New Testament.

If I quote one of Paul's epistles, they'll say it doesn't count because it's an epistle and not the Gospel.  When I quote the Gospel of John, they'll say it doesn't count because it's not one of the synoptic Gospels.  When I quote one of the Synoptics, they'll say it doesn't count because it's not in the Gospel of John.  When I cite something that is in all four Gospels, they'll say it doesn't count because it isn't in one of Paul's Epistles.

I've experienced the above so many times, I've just given up.  And here we have it being done again by one of our posters here on OCnet.

Whatever.  In my Church, the entire Bible is considered the Breath of God.  We respect all of it.  We don't point to parts we disagree with and say those parts are wrong.  We don't put ourselves above the Apostles and judge them.

This is one of many reasons I just can't take Protestants, Evangelicals, or whatever, seriously.

It's not like this at all in my case.

I'm the one quoting the words of God out of Matthew.   

The people here are the ones quoting examples of others saying "father" and feel that it is okay because "Paul did it".
That's where I counter "Paul murdered Christians, no way was he a perfect man"...   Apostles aren't sinless, even Peter denied Christ thrice.
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« Reply #188 on: July 19, 2011, 10:59:41 AM »

This sounds like a cult leader.

Yes. The cult of Jesus Christ, AKA the Orthodox Church. Smiley

 
I hate to break it to you, but Nicea was in 325 A.D.   There wasn't an entire "set structure" of the church in entirety before that.

How did the Church Fathers and Masters all decide to come together to hold the Council of Nicaea, then, I wonder? Smiley

So, yes there was a set structure. See the Ante-Nicene Fathers and Apostolic Fathers for notes.

I'm not trying to be insulting, but you have a lot to learn if you think "All the church FATHERS and MASTERS decided to come together at Nicea". 

There were MANY bishops left out.  There was a lot of controversy, people getting slapped, banished, and cast out.
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« Reply #189 on: July 19, 2011, 10:59:41 AM »

Good than you agree that you do not call him Brethren.  That's disobedience.

It doesn't command us to call them brethren. However, it might make you happy to know that bishops and priests normally begin all sermons with 'My beloved brethren'  Smiley

8But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
 9And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
 10Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
 

The priest can call laymen brethren, that's easy.   The laymen call him "Father". 
Do you see what Matthew 23:9 says?
Again, please, read Matthew 23:9.   Does it or does it not CLEARLY state from GOD'S MOUTH - "and call no man your father upon the earth"

Do you see clearly in Matthew 23:10 "Neither be ye called masters"?

These are the words of God my friend.   Our savior who came down in the flesh told us these things.   

Of all the things, of all the words, of anything the Eastern Orthodox could have chosen to call their priests and bishops, they chose 2 of the 3 things that God himself said not to call them.  "Father & Master".

Why not "the ordained, successor, brother, brethren, Mr. Smith(last name)" or any other words.  It was chosen the TWO exact words God said not to call them.
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« Reply #190 on: July 19, 2011, 10:59:41 AM »

They mean the same thing, I can post Orthodox links on it.

The song we sing to our bishops goes "Eis polla eti, Despota", not "Eis polla eti, Kathegetai."  I've sung it myself a number of times.

Yes I've sung the same thing many times.   Despota translates into "Master".

Hence the original question.
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« Reply #191 on: July 19, 2011, 10:59:41 AM »

They mean the same thing, I can post Orthodox links on it.

The song we sing to our bishops goes "Eis polla eti, Despota", not "Eis polla eti, Kathegetai."  I've sung it myself a number of times.

Ironic that someone who insists on saying Yeshua rather than Jesus would ignore the original text and base his argument on the English translation of the KJV. I'm trying to decide whether I should follow verse 4 or verse 5 of Proverbs 26.

You mean the textus receptus? nice.
On Earth Yeshua spoke Aramaic not Greek (I'm sure you know this).   His name was not even "Jesus" here on Earth.  That's a mere translation out of the "iesus".   You need to research his name, and realize that actually saying "Jesus" is a bad translation in old English when the J sounded like an I.

Google it.  There are tons of sources.   However to be fair there is a small issue between either saying "Yeshua" or "Yehushua".   

Of course this is way besides the point of this thread.   This is another thread issue.
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« Reply #192 on: July 19, 2011, 10:59:41 AM »

+ Irini nem ehmot,

St. Augustine said it best about people like this: If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself.

I say - "If you follow the words of God, then you obey him, if you don't follow the words of God you disobey him".

I completely and utterly believe in the words of the Gospel.

In Matthew it was recorded not to call any man "Father" or "Master".   No where were we ever instructed in any gospel or epistle to actually call people "Father or Master".

So tell me this:

Who is believing what they want in the gospels?  Me?  or you and/or the Eastern Orthodox church?

I have the quotes of God directly saying "not to call any man father or master".

The church then "believes" that since "Paul did it we should too even though we were never commanded to".



So who is the believer in the gospel?

The ones who reads and obeys the commands from God himself?
or
The ones who decided that because such and such did it, we can to?

Again from Augustine - If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself.

There has not been one instance of any Orthodox Christian that I have found actually "likes" these passages.   In fact if you go back in the thread, insults are flying because it truly shows disobedience of the Eastern Orthodox church & the gospel of Matthew.  The church "took what it likes" from other scripture and gives examples of "where so and so did it".   That is a rejection of Matthew & the words of God.

The church doesn't believe in the gospel, but itself.
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« Reply #193 on: July 19, 2011, 10:59:41 AM »

What is an elder or bishop if not a "Master/Teacher?" We pay respect to those older than us in the faith who "watch over our souls." What's more hierarchical than being Scripturally compared to sheep who have to have a "pastor."

Even if the Church was completely egalitarian, certain people based on their greater experience, gifts, or age will naturally accrue some authority over the rest (the older siblings looking after the younger, as it were)-even the Amish have their honored elders, don't they? We humans are a hierarchical species, it simply can't be avoided.

Even a child deferring to his parents is calling them "Master/Mistress" in a sense even if they don't say the word (as if woodenly literal obedience is what God is after in the first place). Actions speak louder than words after all.

An elder or bishop is a person responsible for watching over a church.  This does not make them a "master".
They are our "brethren".

This is why we wash their feet as they are supposed to wash our feet.  We are all to humble ourselves before one another. 

The Amish stuff is a different thread issue really, but the Amish do have bishops, but every bishop washes every mans feet, as every man washes his feet.  They are not called "masters".  In fact in their churches they don't even have appointed clergy as the EO church does.  They believe that all are "brethren" and they either draw lots or take turns on who will give the sermon "this week".   But I don't vouch 100% for their churches, but they do practice a TON of early Christian stuff.

People confuse the use of the word "Father".  Yeshua was speaking directly to the apostles about assumed "leaders" taking "high roles" or "high ranks" in the church.  This is why his said "Do not call any man Rabbi, Master, or Father".    Our Father, Master, and Rabbi is God.

People like to denote this into saying "Yeah but what do you call your dad", or "Kids respect their parents don't they".. etc.

This was not even close to the context which Yeshua was speaking about.  He was speaking to the adults about the "non-rank" of their church.  That we are all brethren, we are to humble ourselves, that "Masters, Father, or Rabbi" is forbidden.

This is EXACTLY what the Eastern Orthodox church is doing.  They have ranks, superiors, and they call them "Father & Master".
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« Reply #194 on: July 19, 2011, 11:02:06 AM »

The church doesn't believe in the gospel, but itself.

The Church wrote the Gospel.
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« Reply #195 on: July 19, 2011, 11:03:59 AM »

That is a rejection of Matthew & the words of God.
Much like you reject the teaching of any Apostle not name Matthew?

BTW, I hate to break it to you, but since you seem so intent on discrediting Peter and Paul because they were sinners, your beloved St. Matthew was one of the many disciples who abandoned Jesus after His arrest.
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« Reply #196 on: July 19, 2011, 11:09:38 AM »

Ok, maybe I missed it, but I think the command from Jesus concerning the "Father" comment is directed to the Apostles themselves, not Christians as a whole. Matthew 23:8–10 kind of makes it clear that no apostle is to call anyone Father, Rabbi, etc because they have complete authority under Christ. Yes he was also speaking to crowds, but really, the verses in question could only be directed to the Apostles, because if we actually think Jesus was talking to everyone with this comment, he owuld be directing the entire crowd not to obey the Apostles. A little common sense is really needed here.

I actually read the entire passage and to me, it's obvious that Christ is giving a direct commandment to the Apostles as they were given authority.

To me, Father, Rabbi, etc is a title of submission and stating the authority of another. As the apostles were directed by Christ Himself, they had no master on Earth as Christ would ascend.

I actually dont see how anyone, if reading the text, could come up with any other explanation. If im wrong, I'd love to hear your ideas.

primuspilus

Yes, this is one of the things I thought about for a LONG time before asking this question and it is a fantastic question that had me in loops for a while.   Of course he was speaking to crowds and I considered as you did if the intended ears were just the apostles.

I believe that the answer to this is deals ONLY in an ironic circle that is within Orthodoxy.

It deals with apostolic succession which the Eastern Orthodox church holds true.

On ordination it is believed that a priest and bishop receive a succession directly from the apostles as the many charts flow back to them.  (yes they are cool)  Since they are receiving the succession itself, they are successors of the ordination that the same apostles received.  

Then you'll hear the priest a successor say "Bless MASTER" "MASTER bless".  You'll hear bishops say "Father Smith" etc.   Since they have succession, then they should not be doing it.   However, they still do.

The thing is as I've posted before, of ALL the words that could have been chosen to call priests or bishops, the Eastern Orthodox HAD to use the two words that GOD told us not to use.   "Father and Master".

This is one of my reasons for the falling away from the church.  It is very blatant and obvious that God intended for us not to call each other these things.   We are to be brothers and brethren.   Not one above the other.   Not one to be venerated but rather we are all to wash each others feet.

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« Reply #197 on: July 19, 2011, 11:52:42 AM »

In Matthew it was recorded not to call any man "Father" or "Master".   No where were we ever instructed in any gospel or epistle to actually call people "Father or Master".

And yet there are places where St. Matthew calls a man "father."

Matthew 2:22
But when he heard that Archelaus was reigning over Judea instead of his father Herod, he was afraid to go there. And being warned by God in a dream, he turned aside into the region of Galilee.

Matthew 4:21
Going on from there, He saw two other brothers, James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, in the boat with Zebedee their father, mending their nets. He called them,

Matthew 4:22
and immediately they left the boat and their father, and followed Him.

Matthew 10:21
“Now brother will deliver up brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death.

(I pulled all of these from BibleGateway.com.)


I believe it was Christ Himself who, in that last passage, was using the word "father" to refer to someone other than God.  In all of those passages, someone other than God is being referred to as "father."

So I guess from your point of view, the Gospel of Matthew is no good either.


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The church doesn't believe in the gospel, but itself.

Speak for yourself.
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« Reply #198 on: July 19, 2011, 12:27:52 PM »

To clarify Yesh, I think that we as lay people can call priests Father, as Jesus, IMO was speaking directly to the apostles, not to lay people. If a Bishop is speaking to a subordinate, (ie. Father) it's a title that the person in question earned and is a respect thing, however, Im sure the Bishop could get away with calling him by his first name.

Now, yes. The bishops and priests are the sucessors to the Apostles, but NOT the Apostles themselves. The Apostles had no equal but Christ. Nowhere in the text does Christ state "or those you appoint". Im sure if St. Peter or St. Paul came down today and stood before say, the EP, he'd bow to their authority.

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« Reply #199 on: July 19, 2011, 12:56:21 PM »

You mean the textus receptus? nice.
On Earth Yeshua spoke Aramaic not Greek (I'm sure you know this).

Every book of the New Testament was originally written in Greek. The only possible exception is the Gospel of Matthew, which the Fathers say was first written in Hebrew. However, the Hebrew version of this book is now lost, and even its Aramaic versions are translations from the Greek.

We don't have the words of Christ other than what the Apostles recorded in the Gospels. The Gospels are in Greek. If you want to know what Christ said, you go to the Greek.

Quote
His name was not even "Jesus" here on Earth.  That's a mere translation out of the "iesus".   You need to research his name, and realize that actually saying "Jesus" is a bad translation in old English when the J sounded like an I.

Google it.  There are tons of sources.   However to be fair there is a small issue between either saying "Yeshua" or "Yehushua".   

Of course this is way besides the point of this thread.   This is another thread issue.

Your reply is way besides the point of this thread. I don't think another thread is needed for it though, since I'd be very surprised if anyone on this forum is unfamiliar with those basic facts.

My point was that it's strange that someone who refuses to use 'Jesus' because the modern English pronunciation is so far removed from the original would nonetheless base his straw-man argument on an English translation (based on the Textus Receptus you dislike so much). A translation that isn't even capable of expressing the totally different meanings of Greek words, which leads astray the uninformed such as yourself.
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« Reply #200 on: July 19, 2011, 12:58:48 PM »

That's where I counter "Paul murdered Christians, no way was he a perfect man"...

That was Saul, not Paul. Different man in all but body.

And nobody said the Apostles were perfect. But their collective teachings were. And that collective teaching is to call people "Father".
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« Reply #201 on: July 19, 2011, 01:00:15 PM »

They mean the same thing, I can post Orthodox links on it.

The song we sing to our bishops goes "Eis polla eti, Despota", not "Eis polla eti, Kathegetai."  I've sung it myself a number of times.

Yes I've sung the same thing many times.   Despota translates into "Master".

Hence the original question.

Translation is an approximation. Since the original word is not the same, it doesn't mean the same thing.
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« Reply #202 on: July 19, 2011, 01:00:46 PM »

Wait!  There's more!

Matthew 10:35
For I have come to ‘set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’;

Matthew 10:37
He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.

Matthew 15:4
For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’

Matthew 15:5-7
5 But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”— 6 then he need not honor his father or mother.father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’?
      

Matthew 19:19
‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’”

Matthew 19:29
And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life.

Matthew 23:32
Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt.


I think all of the above are quotes of Christ Himself using the word "father" to refer to persons other than God.


Yesh,

Can you show us where in the Bible it commands us to call the men married to our mothers "father?"  

Let's look again at the passage you are perseverating over:

Matthew 23:9
Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.

Christ says we can't call anyone our father.  Giving the passage the literal interpretation you do, that means even the guy married to my mom can't be called father.  

What I have been taught is that Christ was teaching us that there is really only One True Father, Who is God.  All other fathers, whether they be the guy married to mom, or a priest, are really just imitations of the One and Only Father in Heaven.

That interpretation makes more sense to me.  That interpretation does not make a liar of our Lord, when He goes on to refer to to a bunch of other people as father.  That interpretation does not force me to invalidate whole portions of scripture.  Your interpretation does just that.  
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« Reply #203 on: July 19, 2011, 01:01:38 PM »

This sounds like a cult leader.

Yes. The cult of Jesus Christ, AKA the Orthodox Church. Smiley

 
I hate to break it to you, but Nicea was in 325 A.D.   There wasn't an entire "set structure" of the church in entirety before that.

How did the Church Fathers and Masters all decide to come together to hold the Council of Nicaea, then, I wonder? Smiley

So, yes there was a set structure. See the Ante-Nicene Fathers and Apostolic Fathers for notes.

I'm not trying to be insulting, but you have a lot to learn if you think "All the church FATHERS and MASTERS decided to come together at Nicea". 

There were MANY bishops left out.  There was a lot of controversy, people getting slapped, banished, and cast out.


Yes? And?
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« Reply #204 on: July 19, 2011, 01:02:49 PM »

Salpy:

I already tried that tack. It is fruitless. When you quote scripture he says the Apostles were disobedient. If Christ calls people "father", he says God can do whatever he wants. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #205 on: July 19, 2011, 01:18:26 PM »

OK, thanks.  I hadn't read the entire thread.  My bad.

So Yesh is doing that Protestant thing where he invalidates scripture he doesn't like.

Why are we even debating him?  To me, someone who doesn't believe in the Bible isn't even a Christian. 
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« Reply #206 on: July 19, 2011, 01:19:13 PM »

I wonder what Yesh calls the guy who was with his mom when he was conceived?  I don't want to go through all five pages of this thread.  Has he told us yet?
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« Reply #207 on: July 19, 2011, 01:26:57 PM »

Neither do we know whether he or she (if there was a gender disclosure I must have missed it) has both hands, both eyes and hates his/parents.

I wonder what Yesh calls the guy who was with his mom when he was conceived?  I don't want to go through all five pages of this thread.  Has he told us yet?
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« Reply #208 on: July 19, 2011, 01:36:59 PM »

Quote
I wonder what Yesh calls the guy who was with his mom when he was conceived?  I don't want to go through all five pages of this thread.  Has he told us yet?

"Hey Fa....um....hey dude!"

Quote
So Yesh is doing that Protestant thing where he invalidates scripture he doesn't like
I wouldnt say invalidates, just that "its not what scripture is saying" then followes by wild leaps of illogic with no historical or scriptural basis.

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« Reply #209 on: July 19, 2011, 01:43:48 PM »

Yesh,

What do you call the guy who was with your mom when you were conceived?
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« Reply #210 on: July 19, 2011, 01:47:12 PM »

Quote
What do you call the guy who was with your mom when you were conceived?

Steve? Huckleberry Hound? Hey you?

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« Reply #211 on: July 19, 2011, 01:48:20 PM »

Yesh,

If you are filling out some government form that asks for the names of your father and mother, what do you put for "Father?"  If the only person you can call "Father" is God, do you put "God" there?

If you have a kid and you are filling out the birth certificate, what do you put for "Father?"  Do you put "God" for that also?

I'm serious.  Filling out a form like that with anything other than "God" is being disobedient to Christ's commandment.  You would be calling someone other than God "Father."

So I am really curious as to what your practice is.
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« Reply #212 on: July 19, 2011, 05:20:13 PM »

Ok, maybe I missed it, but I think the command from Jesus concerning the "Father" comment is directed to the Apostles themselves, not Christians as a whole. Matthew 23:8–10 kind of makes it clear that no apostle is to call anyone Father, Rabbi, etc because they have complete authority under Christ. Yes he was also speaking to crowds, but really, the verses in question could only be directed to the Apostles, because if we actually think Jesus was talking to everyone with this comment, he owuld be directing the entire crowd not to obey the Apostles. A little common sense is really needed here.

I actually read the entire passage and to me, it's obvious that Christ is giving a direct commandment to the Apostles as they were given authority.

To me, Father, Rabbi, etc is a title of submission and stating the authority of another. As the apostles were directed by Christ Himself, they had no master on Earth as Christ would ascend.

I actually dont see how anyone, if reading the text, could come up with any other explanation. If im wrong, I'd love to hear your ideas.

primuspilus

Yes, this is one of the things I thought about for a LONG time before asking this question and it is a fantastic question that had me in loops for a while.   Of course he was speaking to crowds and I considered as you did if the intended ears were just the apostles.

I believe that the answer to this is deals ONLY in an ironic circle that is within Orthodoxy.

It deals with apostolic succession which the Eastern Orthodox church holds true.

On ordination it is believed that a priest and bishop receive a succession directly from the apostles as the many charts flow back to them.  (yes they are cool)  Since they are receiving the succession itself, they are successors of the ordination that the same apostles received.  

Then you'll hear the priest a successor say "Bless MASTER" "MASTER bless".  You'll hear bishops say "Father Smith" etc.   Since they have succession, then they should not be doing it.   However, they still do.

The thing is as I've posted before, of ALL the words that could have been chosen to call priests or bishops, the Eastern Orthodox HAD to use the two words that GOD told us not to use.   "Father and Master".

This is one of my reasons for the falling away from the church.  It is very blatant and obvious that God intended for us not to call each other these things.   We are to be brothers and brethren.   Not one above the other.   Not one to be venerated but rather we are all to wash each others feet.


      Well, I am sorry to hear about your falling away. If we are to put gods words in context things may fall into place for you. Hopefully. The first thing we need to point out is that "Father" in this case denotes a spiritual father and not a biological one. Second: The church gives authority to priests and bishops for the holy spirit to speak through and in this context they can be called father because they are relaying gods word and action. Therefore deserving of the title father. There is no difference in hearing words from a messenger or from the source if they are the same words.  The sacraments are passed down in the same manor. God gave the sacrament of baptism to the disciples in the same manor. To be passed down to the lay people. Would you deny baptism if it wasn't preformed by god himself? No way. Because the underline meaning is that the priests hands are a tool for god to preform the baptism. The baptism itself is from god preformed through the hands of the priest.
  Now if that priest isn't from god he isn't worthy of the name father. If the channel isn't there he can't be called father and that is what is meant by that phrase. Spiritually the link to god doesn't exist in certain individuals. Usually those outside of the visible church such as false prophets and such.

 
 
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« Reply #213 on: July 19, 2011, 05:39:58 PM »

Good than you agree that you do not call him Brethren.  That's disobedience.

It doesn't command us to call them brethren. However, it might make you happy to know that bishops and priests normally begin all sermons with 'My beloved brethren'  Smiley

8But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
 9And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
 10Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
 

The priest can call laymen brethren, that's easy.   The laymen call him "Father".  
Do you see what Matthew 23:9 says?
Again, please, read Matthew 23:9.   Does it or does it not CLEARLY state from GOD'S MOUTH - "and call no man your father upon the earth"

Do you see clearly in Matthew 23:10 "Neither be ye called masters"?

These are the words of God my friend.   Our savior who came down in the flesh told us these things.  

Of all the things, of all the words, of anything the Eastern Orthodox could have chosen to call their priests and bishops, they chose 2 of the 3 things that God himself said not to call them.  "Father & Master".

Why not "the ordained, successor, brother, brethren, Mr. Smith(last name)" or any other words.  It was chosen the TWO exact words God said not to call them.
These are not the words of Gods mouth. Jesus did not write a book of the Bible. These are the words of God's mouth as quoted by St. Matthew. If you don't trust Peter, Paul, and Luke to be speaking by the Spirit why do you trust Matthew to not have altered Jesus' words or made a mistake or something?

Paul called himself a father by the Spirit.

The Bible has lots of difficult to reconcile verses.

We don't have Jesus on tape, everything is based on trust in His followers.

Get over it.
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« Reply #214 on: July 19, 2011, 06:04:02 PM »

An elder or bishop is a person responsible for watching over a church.  This does not make them a "master".
Of course it does. You're being pedantic.

They are our "brethren".

This is why we wash their feet as they are supposed to wash our feet.  We are all to humble ourselves before one another.  

The Amish stuff is a different thread issue really, but the Amish do have bishops, but every bishop washes every mans feet, as every man washes his feet.  They are not called "masters".  In fact in their churches they don't even have appointed clergy as the EO church does.  They believe that all are "brethren" and they either draw lots or take turns on who will give the sermon "this week".   But I don't vouch 100% for their churches, but they do practice a TON of early Christian stuff.

People confuse the use of the word "Father".  Yeshua was speaking directly to the apostles about assumed "leaders" taking "high roles" or "high ranks" in the church.  This is why his said "Do not call any man Rabbi, Master, or Father".    Our Father, Master, and Rabbi is God.

People like to denote this into saying "Yeah but what do you call your dad", or "Kids respect their parents don't they".. etc.

This was not even close to the context which Yeshua was speaking about.  He was speaking to the adults about the "non-rank" of their church.  That we are all brethren, we are to humble ourselves, that "Masters, Father, or Rabbi" is forbidden.

This is EXACTLY what the Eastern Orthodox church is doing.  They have ranks, superiors, and they call them "Father & Master".
Like it or not, when you were a kid your earthly father was an authority over you- no matter what you called him. Your Amish bishop is an authority over you, no matter what you call him.

Stop straining at gnats and look at the spirit of the commandment. Whoever He was addressing, Jesus was specifically talking about the Pharisees. They love to accrue titles and places of honor. Jesus is telling the people not to be like them. The exact names are irrelevant, you're only focusing on one tiny part of the verse. Is it wrong to give honor to a prideful, pharisaic bishop? Possibly. That would seem to be spirit of the command and this is something maybe Orthodox laity should consider (keeping in mind not being to judge a man's heart, etc). But the Scripture says we should give honor to whom is due honor.

You disrespect the shepherds of your soul and your own parents with your half-baked egalitarianism.
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« Reply #215 on: July 19, 2011, 11:53:39 PM »

I once heard a Benedictine monk say, regarding "call no man father", is that the ultimate source of fatherhood is from God and the priest partakes of this one fatherhood by the grace of God, and thus it is correct to call him "father". Is such an interpretation an Orthodox one? It seems like sound reasoning to me.

God bless,
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« Reply #216 on: July 20, 2011, 12:08:37 AM »

I once heard a Benedictine monk say, regarding "call no man father", is that the ultimate source of fatherhood is from God and the priest partakes of this one fatherhood by the grace of God, and thus it is correct to call him "father". Is such an interpretation an Orthodox one? It seems like sound reasoning to me.

God bless,
Severian

I think that's a good point!

It's similar in concept to theosis, and people becoming God by grace through partaking of God. We are Sons by partaking of Christ's Sonship. Priests are "Fathers" by grace, through partaking of God's Fatherhood. Bishops are Masters by grace, through partaking of God's Mastership. The grace is bestowed in the Sacrament of Ordination.

Reminds me of the honorifics we call bishops by. "His Grace", "His Eminence," "His Beatitude", "His Holiness", etc. All these refer to attributes God, not to the bishop personally.
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« Reply #217 on: July 20, 2011, 12:09:37 AM »

This is possibly going to derail the thread, but Yesh, while you're focusing on titles and other such issues, let me bring up the issue of Amish bishops and preachers. In such small, close communities, they have more personal interaction and involvement in personal and private lives of the Amish than the EO/OO priests probably have with their congregation.

I've read a lot about the Amish, and while I admire certain parts of their lifestyle, it's almost impossible to acknowledge the way that the bishops and preachers deal with the people, on a very personal level. THEY dole out "die meinding" (not sure of the spelling, PA Dutch, from what I know, isn't really written, and the German word for "shunning" appears to be different) and deal with other personal issues that seem almost petty to us (who was caught smoking, driving a car, reading fashion magazines, dress styles, taking too long to decide to be baptized, etc).

So while we may be "disobeying Christ" and calling our priests "Father," if you join the Amish church, you will be putting much more of your life decisions in THEIR hands than we do with our priests. We can be excommunicated from communion, but they're not going to shun us for wanting to live a different lifestyle, in order to "lovingly" urge us to come back to the Church. Not in the same way that the Amish do, anyway. (I realize you can draw a comparison between excommunication from communion and the Amish shunning, but I think it's rather weak.)

So, what's the difference? The Amish have the right terminology? Do you really think that there isn't a hierarchy in that culture?

And while you do like how humble they are, let's not cast the "lack of humility" on the entire Orthodox priesthood, because that's not fair. Let's face it: you met people that you like and their lifestyle happens to agree with your idealistic vision of what early Christianity is. But from where I'm standing, I'm seeing a lot of theory and practice that seems pretty antithetical to Christianity to me.

But what do I know?
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« Reply #218 on: July 20, 2011, 12:11:02 AM »

I once heard a Benedictine monk say, regarding "call no man father", is that the ultimate source of fatherhood is from God and the priest partakes of this one fatherhood by the grace of God, and thus it is correct to call him "father". Is such an interpretation an Orthodox one? It seems like sound reasoning to me.

God bless,
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I've heard Orthodox priests say this, yeah.  Grin
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« Reply #219 on: July 20, 2011, 12:11:10 AM »

OK, thanks.  I hadn't read the entire thread.  My bad.

Not at all. To read this drivel would be even more fruitless than any valiant attempt to talk sense into him.

Why are we even debating him?

That's another thing that has been asked multiple times in this thread. Cheesy Wink
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« Reply #220 on: July 20, 2011, 02:41:27 AM »

1. Paul did NOT tell people to CALL him Father
2. Paul may have not read Matthew, nor understood this command, either way, he did what God told him not to do.
BTW, what record do you have that specifically says that God told Paul not to call any man father or master?

You do realize that many of St. Paul's epistles are the oldest writings we have in our New Testament, predating even the Gospels--yes, even the Gospel of Matthew--themselves?
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« Reply #221 on: July 20, 2011, 02:58:22 AM »

In the Arabic speaking countries it is polite to call an older man "Abba" or "Abu" so what's the big deal?
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« Reply #222 on: July 20, 2011, 03:00:14 AM »

1. Paul did NOT tell people to CALL him Father
2. Paul may have not read Matthew, nor understood this command, either way, he did what God told him not to do.
BTW, what record do you have that specifically says that God told Paul not to call any man father or master?

You do realize that many of St. Paul's epistles are the oldest writings we have in our New Testament, predating even the Gospels--yes, even the Gospel of Matthew--themselves?


True.  They say that St. Paul probably never read the Gospels.  He never quotes them, and when he quotes Christ the words don't exactly match up to what you see in the Gospels.  St. Paul was probably working off of an oral tradition.
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« Reply #223 on: July 20, 2011, 10:00:25 AM »

Its pretty obvious that St. Paul and Timothy had a father/son relationship, in fact a few times I do remember seeing the word "Son" in there, so I wonder if Timothy called him father on occasion.

primuspilus


P.S. If the "Jesus" or Yeshua thing is really a big deal Yesh, why do you not call God Yahweh or Jehova?
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"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
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Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
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« Reply #224 on: July 20, 2011, 11:48:03 AM »

8But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
9And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
10Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

Let me break it down.
8.  A Rabbi is a spiritual leader & teacher of the church in Judaism.  (We are all brethren, not any more special than the other)
9.  Call NO MAN your FATHER upon the Earth!  Our Father is in HEAVEN.
10. Do not call anybody MASTER.  For only God is our master.

Okay, now for the Orthodox.

8 & 9.  What is a priest?  A spiritual leader and teacher in the church.  What do you call him?  FATHER.  God told you NOT to call any MAN father.  A priest is a MAN.  Are you going to give an explanation of why you are disobeying God and continue to say "Father".   God has told you not to call any  man father.  Not a Rabbi (teacher or spiritual leader) not anybody.  A priest is our brethren not our father.   Do you feel that you are disobeying God when you call your priest "Father" when GOD specifically commanded you NOT to call ANY MAN FATHER?

10.  What's the first thing you do when you see a bishop?  Bow, touch the floor and say what?  "Master bless".   Guess what, you did it again!  You called a man MASTER.  Jesus told you not to call anybody master.  Yet it is specifically done.  Is there an explanation?  I'm sure. But does the explanation meet worthy to disobey God?

Please no personal attacks.  I'm quoting the scripture that is from God's own words.

When any person has been taught from the mouth of another, he is called the son of his instructor. And the instructor is call his father. - Irenaeus(180 A.D.)

I intend to leave good children to posterity. This is the case with children of our bodies. But words are offspring of the soul. Hence, we call those who have instructed us, fathers. - Clement of Alexandria(195 A.D.)

The holy apostles -- Peter, James, John, and Paul -- the sons receiving it from the fathers (but few were like fathers). - Clement of Alexandria(195 A.D.)

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O God be merciful to me a sinner. You, O Lord who created me, have mercy on me. I have sinned without number,O Lord, have mercy on me and forgive me, a sinner.
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