Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
But who was it that recorded that statement? HINT: He was also an apostle.
On what authority do we have it that Jesus is God?
Also, in some contexts, 'Master' can mean 'Teacher.'
Just throwing that out there.
Rabbi means teacher too.
We are not supposed to call anybody these. God told us so.
Yeshua said that he was God.
"Before Abraham was born I AM"
Yes, John was an Apostle. The beloved.
Who was it that said "Call no man rabbi, father, or master"? HINT: He was part of the Trinity.
Who calls people "Father and Master"? HINT: It's a church that claims its the one true church.
Who washed your feet last in your church as God commanded?
Who's hand do you venerate as a non-equal brethren?
When is the last time you bishop washed your feet as a brother?
When was the last time you kissed up to your bishop as if he was something overwhelmingly special?
Which apostle venerated images of the likeness of things on heaven and earth?
Which church plays like your veneration is like "beaming up" your veneration to the person "represented"?
What did God tell you not to make in the 1st commandment?
What is an iconostasis and what apostle did that?
What "father" do you confess your sins to? Or do you to it to "one another" as commanded?
When you pray before meals do you thank God in your prayer as taught by God?
Which table of oblation did Christ use again in the last supper?
When did Christ or any apostle venerate Mary?
You people act as though I'm nuts.
I'm not the one kissing paint and wood that was "blessed" by a "father" bowing and crossing myself thinking it makes any difference. I'm just here telling you the iconostasis did NOT exist, nor the structure of the church as you know it to the original apostles.
I'm here saying the orignal apostles are our brethren, and that's how God set it up.
It is my firm belief that Eastern Orthodoxy is merely a dogma laced morph of the beautiful early church that once existed. Just because you call these guys saints (such as James) and label him a patriarch, doesn't mean that's really what he was. He was our brother, our brethren.
All this fluff is just a bunch of OCD superstition of the once beautiful church that existed.
I mean.. ya know... Everybody has a halo. Uh huh....
Early Christianity was a lot more Jewish than most of you can imagine. There was no
2) Veneration of hands.
3) Worries of apostolic succession.
4) 80,000 pieces of dogma and procedure.
5) Communion was more of a passover meal, not some huge drawn out blessing in a consecrated altar behind an iconostasis with byzantine king garb.
If I'm wrong show me of the iconostasis in EARLY Christianity. 100-200 A.D.
If I'm wrong show me where everybody venerated icons in EARLY Christianity.
If I'm wrong show me all of the extreme dogma in EARLY Christianity.
If I'm wrong show me where confession was to a church "father" in EARLY Christianity.
So basically pipe out all the excuses and explanations.
The explanations to my questions are "The church evolved, and we kiss wood & paint because of...."
Too many excuses. Too many explanations. Even the "Patriarchs" are in ecumenism, which slaps Eastern Orthodox tradition in the face. But people make excuses and have explanations for that.
So explain to me again.
When GOD - not apostles - but GOD - yes YHWH, Yeshua, and the Holy Spirit says:
1) Call no man FATHER
2) Call no man Rabbi
3) Call no man MASTER
Why do the Eastern Orthodox Christians say: But because.... and this... and that..... this is why.... and "I'm messing with Texas"... and "You are ignorant".......
The bottom line is you are disobeying Yeshua, your God. He said NOT TO do it. No matter what theologian, priest, or church elder has made excuses for to disobey him.
I'm having trouble understanding the logic of many here. No means no. Not means not. Do not means "Do not".
GOD the top of all authority said: "DO NOT"
You say: "We can because so and so, and this and that".
So are you going to continue to DO what God said "DO NOT" to?
Brother, do you honestly expect to come into an Orthodox forum and continually and rudely scathe Orthodoxy and the Holy Tradition and expect any of us to take you any more seriously then we already have? Lord have His Mercy are you that dense? Calling us crazy for our adherence to the Holy Tradition is not very polite fellowship, I expect better from you as I usually enjoy your input to these discussions. However, if you insist on being so vitriolic, well then that speaks for itself unfortunately
I will only say this and reiterate it yet again:
Where does God say such things literally and personally? The Scriptures are a book, paper, that is all. Sorry, they are not in themselves perfect nor Divine. Rather, God Himself, in His Godhead, is perfect and true, and God Himself is Omnipotent well and beyond the limits of any kind of Scriptures or interpretations. In Orthodox, we don't rely on Sola Scripture or to legalistically on the Tradition, instead we turn to God in our hearts directly. Its not the Bible that speaks for God, God Himself is fully able to speak for Himself in the here and now. So please, stop bible thumping on us, we are just ontologically on a different playing field in this regard to "listening to God"
We Commune directly with "Yehshua" and He speaks to us in our Church, not just the Scriptures, please stop insulting us by pretending He only speaks to you and your personalized interpretations of the Scriptures
I appreciate that you enjoy my input on most posts, so please do not judge me according to one.
I have a vast history in the Eastern Orthodox church, and have found that since the time of Nicea, it has strayed far from "tradition". Perhaps "tradition of _____".
Nobody will argue that the early Christians did not use an iconostasis for example. We must always ask ourselves "why do we need it"? We really don't.
My perception of Orthodoxy has changed both because of the irony in the church (ecumenism) and also because I have done a lot of research on the Early Christians.
I have looked for the fruit all over, and the best examples I can find were the anabaptists who actually stick to many of the early traditions of Christianity. The messianic Jews make sense as well, but the lessons and depths of both of those are cast out of Eastern Orthodoxy because "Eastern Orthodoxy is the true church". It's a propaganda ploy of sorts. "Our church is perfect". (Despite schisms, fights, separations, even you are Oriental Orthodox --- Why?)
Many respond with hostility. Perhaps both in frustration and irritation. Many don't want to understand the clarity of God. So several tactics are diverted and used against somebody when criticizing.
1) Being Naive
2) Personal attacks
4) Troll tactics (look at a former post "I am messing with Texas")
The issue at hand is very direct. People are making excuses for disobeying God. Their excuses are:
1) The other apostles & Paul did it
2) "Father doesn't mean Father"
3) "Master doesn't mean Master"
4) Bringing incorrect translations of the Greek
I'm just asking a very simple and plain question. If you erase everything else that was said in this forum or post.
God said (note GOD SAID) "Do not call ANY man Rabbi, Father, or Master".
The Eastern Orthodox call their priests "Father" and Bishops "Master".
When I see the excuses and explanations it sounds like what my oldest kids do.
For example: I told my oldest son "Don't play in the creek, it's a flash flood zone and storms from miles away can flood it instantly". Son disobeys and plays in the creek. I ask him "Why did you play in the creek when I told you not to". Son says "My friend Jimmy was down there and he had an older brother who is 15 and we were fine".
Is this disobedience or an explanation of why it was okay?
That's what I'm hearing & reading.
"The apostles wrote it so its okay"
"It's tradition so its fine"
"Father doesn't mean Father"
GOD said "Do NOT call any man Rabbi, Father, or Master". What excuses are we going to give God for doing it anyway?
GOD said You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above
, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them
. (Ex 20:2-5; cf. Deut 5:6-9)
Is this not blatant disobedience? Or is there an excuse, explanation, or reason that they wish to give God?
God said "DON'T DO IT!!!"
Look they are doing it! But they'll tell you they aren't but they really are!
Just like when we call priests "Father" and Bishops "Master". It's complete disobedience to God!
I'm bewildered and stumped when people can't see past the 10,000 page explanation and just SEE IT for what IS HAPPENING!
Just look at the commandment, and look at the picture! All the clergy are bowing to the icons! They are images in the likeness of things in heaven!
But you did ask a good question. What am I doing on an Orthodox Forum.
The forum is called "Orthodox Christianity dot net". Not "Eastern Orthodox Christianity" or "Oriental Orthodox Christianity".
I seek Orthodox Christianity. I seek the right way (by definition).