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Author Topic: Do the Orthodox disobey God in their practice?  (Read 10040 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #90 on: July 14, 2011, 05:11:56 PM »

Quote from: yeshuaisiam
But the church wasn't Eastern Orthodoxy in practice at all in the beginning.

Good luck with that.  Tongue  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #91 on: July 14, 2011, 05:18:57 PM »

I just have this to say:

The Church is a living, breathing organism. It will stand the test of time, but with humanity as members (parts) of the Body, it will undergo some sort of temporal changes. We must ensure that the key truths remain intact, but using outlets like technology, as well as continuing time-honored traditions as those you so despise in the Church, can add to the role of the Church if we make sure that the truth of Christianity is still plain and clear.

If you want to join the exact same "version" of Christianity that began the minute that Jesus left this earth, good luck finding it. I do suggest probably turning off your laptop and not reading a Bible, though.

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« Reply #92 on: July 14, 2011, 05:23:23 PM »

I just have this to say:

The Church is a living, breathing organism. It will stand the test of time, but with humanity as members (parts) of the Body, it will undergo some sort of temporal changes. We must ensure that the key truths remain intact, but using outlets like technology, as well as continuing time-honored traditions as those you so despise in the Church, can add to the role of the Church if we make sure that the truth of Christianity is still plain and clear.

If you want to join the exact same "version" of Christianity that began the minute that Jesus left this earth, good luck finding it. I do suggest probably turning off your laptop and not reading a Bible, though.



The question, I suggest you ask people in these situations is simply when did the "Church" begin. The Church Fathers have some interesting ideas on it.

Now, before I am invariably asked to back up the point I am trying to make, I will need to speak with my Priest with whom I was discussing this recently for the Patristic sources, and who is recovering from some serious personal loss.

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« Reply #93 on: July 14, 2011, 05:24:42 PM »


The question, I suggest you ask people in these situations is simply when did the "Church" begin. The Church Fathers have some interesting ideas on it.

But they supported such evil things as iconography, so I don't know what kind of help they would be in this instance.

Liora
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« Reply #94 on: July 14, 2011, 05:36:05 PM »


The question, I suggest you ask people in these situations is simply when did the "Church" begin. The Church Fathers have some interesting ideas on it.

But they supported such evil things as iconography, so I don't know what kind of help they would be in this instance.

Liora

When did the Church begin?
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« Reply #95 on: July 14, 2011, 05:42:50 PM »

*I* don't know the answer to that question myself. Please tell me where you are leading?
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« Reply #96 on: July 14, 2011, 06:02:51 PM »

So you don't bow, touch the floor and say "Master Bless" ?

Christ did not speak English, nor were his words recorded in English. His words were recorded in Greek. Consequently, the English word 'master' does not appear anywhere in the original text New Testament. As I already said, twice, the verse tells us not to call people "καθηγηταί". The word we use to address a bishop is "δέσποτα". I'm sure you're capable of seeing that these two words are not the same, nor do they share a common root, nor do they have the same meaning or share the same connotation.

It so happens that certain translators of the Bible decided to render the word καθηγηταί with the English word 'master' (many others use 'teacher'), which happens to be the same English words other use to translate δέσποτα. Once again, the two Greek words are completely different. That translators have chosen to render them both with the same English word does not change that fact.

Therefore, when a person bows and says 'Master, bless' s/he is not guilty of calling anyone καθηγηταί, but is attempting convey in English the word δέσποτα. So, even if one were to apply your juvenile and overly literal exegetical method to the verse in question, the criticism you're attempting to raise is an entirely invalid one.
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« Reply #97 on: July 14, 2011, 06:11:51 PM »


The question, I suggest you ask people in these situations is simply when did the "Church" begin. The Church Fathers have some interesting ideas on it.

But they supported such evil things as iconography, so I don't know what kind of help they would be in this instance.

Liora

When did the Church begin?

In my opinion, Adam was the first member of the Lord's Church in time.

Am I on the right track?
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« Reply #98 on: July 14, 2011, 07:49:05 PM »

Yeshuaisiam, what do you say about all those examples I posted of Christ referring to human persons as "father"?
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« Reply #99 on: July 14, 2011, 07:50:56 PM »


The question, I suggest you ask people in these situations is simply when did the "Church" begin. The Church Fathers have some interesting ideas on it.

But they supported such evil things as iconography, so I don't know what kind of help they would be in this instance.

Liora

When did the Church begin?

In my opinion, Adam was the first member of the Lord's Church in time.

Am I on the right track?

This is the direction my Priest was talking about, but even a bit more "radical". It began with the first noetic creature, material or otherwise. So if your view holds that the creation of the orders of immaterial creatures preceded man, then the Church began then.

He expounded on it a bit, because I gave him my typical "I think you are full of it look". Furrowed brow with a smirk.

Interestingly, the sources he gave and how he explained it didn't resort to any sort "ontological" Church beginning then in light of Pentecost, but that, as you say, in time, the Church began with the creation of the first noetic creature.

EDIT: Maybe this is old hat to many of you, but I had never heard of such an idea.
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« Reply #100 on: July 14, 2011, 08:29:19 PM »


The question, I suggest you ask people in these situations is simply when did the "Church" begin. The Church Fathers have some interesting ideas on it.

But they supported such evil things as iconography, so I don't know what kind of help they would be in this instance.

Liora

When did the Church begin?

In my opinion, Adam was the first member of the Lord's Church in time.

Am I on the right track?

This is the direction my Priest was talking about, but even a bit more "radical". It began with the first noetic creature, material or otherwise. So if your view holds that the creation of the orders of immaterial creatures preceded man, then the Church began then.

He expounded on it a bit, because I gave him my typical "I think you are full of it look". Furrowed brow with a smirk.

Interestingly, the sources he gave and how he explained it didn't resort to any sort "ontological" Church beginning then in light of Pentecost, but that, as you say, in time, the Church began with the creation of the first noetic creature.

EDIT: Maybe this is old hat to many of you, but I had never heard of such an idea.

I've always kind of thought it intuitively, so it is nice to see someone with some theological credentials saying it.
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« Reply #101 on: July 14, 2011, 08:33:16 PM »


The question, I suggest you ask people in these situations is simply when did the "Church" begin. The Church Fathers have some interesting ideas on it.

But they supported such evil things as iconography, so I don't know what kind of help they would be in this instance.

Liora

When did the Church begin?

In my opinion, Adam was the first member of the Lord's Church in time.

Am I on the right track?

This is the direction my Priest was talking about, but even a bit more "radical". It began with the first noetic creature, material or otherwise. So if your view holds that the creation of the orders of immaterial creatures preceded man, then the Church began then.

He expounded on it a bit, because I gave him my typical "I think you are full of it look". Furrowed brow with a smirk.

Interestingly, the sources he gave and how he explained it didn't resort to any sort "ontological" Church beginning then in light of Pentecost, but that, as you say, in time, the Church began with the creation of the first noetic creature.

EDIT: Maybe this is old hat to many of you, but I had never heard of such an idea.

I've always kind of thought it intuitively, so it is nice to see someone with some theological credentials saying it.

I am writing a note to revisit the materials with my Priest that he was sourcing when the time is appropriate and let you know.
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« Reply #102 on: July 14, 2011, 09:12:13 PM »

Muy interestante. If that is the case, yeshuaisiam is kinda blanked, then.
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« Reply #103 on: July 14, 2011, 09:12:23 PM »

It is an interesting view that seems to make some sense, but Orthonorm, you're not the only one who hadn't been knowledgeable about it.  Until a couple of months ago, I'm not sure I'd ever even heard of it.  And I've still never really had a full explanation of it.
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« Reply #104 on: July 14, 2011, 09:25:20 PM »

Muy interestante. If that is the case, yeshuaisiam is kinda blanked, then.

Indeed. If the Church was the Church when the first of the angelic powers was created, when Adam first drew breath or when Moses received the tablets of the Law, this whole theological role playing game of trying to recreate the New Testament (only with guitars and blue jeans) is doomed to failure and rightly so.
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« Reply #105 on: July 14, 2011, 09:30:13 PM »

This is the direction my Priest was talking about, but even a bit more "radical". It began with the first noetic creature, material or otherwise. So if your view holds that the creation of the orders of immaterial creatures preceded man, then the Church began then.

He expounded on it a bit, because I gave him my typical "I think you are full of it look". Furrowed brow with a smirk.

Interestingly, the sources he gave and how he explained it didn't resort to any sort "ontological" Church beginning then in light of Pentecost, but that, as you say, in time, the Church began with the creation of the first noetic creature.

EDIT: Maybe this is old hat to many of you, but I had never heard of such an idea.

From The Mind of the Orthodox Church by Metropolitan Hierotheos of Nafpaktos
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It is a teaching of the holy Fathers that with the creation of the angels we have the emergence of the first Church. And it can be seen in the writings of the Fathers of the Church that the angels too are members of the Church. Moreover, God the Father is the creator of "all things visible and invisible". Among the invisible are listed the angels, who sing in praise of God. In the book of Job this witness is preserved: "when the stars were born all the angels in a loud voice sang in praise of me" (Job 38,7). Thus, before the creation of the sensible world there were angels, who sang in praise of God for the creation. And, to be sure, this means that the angels were the first to be created by God.
Read more: http://www.pelagia.org/htm/b12.en.the_mind_of_the_orthodox_church.01.htm#c3
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« Reply #106 on: July 14, 2011, 09:37:47 PM »

My understanding is that the Church as the institutional Body of Christ empowered by the Holy Spirit began on Pentecost, but as the "ecclesia" or those "called out" by God, it pretty much covers all of creation because it uncludes all the "elect" that God foreknew. This includes everyone (not everyone in a sense of "universal salvation" but everyone who is "chosen" frome the many who are "called") from the angels (we call them "agios" or "holy" or "saint") to the OT righteous (including Adam and Eve) to those who followed the "law unto themselves" to those who are baptized into Christ and receive the Holy Spirit and persevere in faith "enduring to the end".

I also hadn't put much thought into it until Pentecost last year when I saw a quote from one of the saints in a church bulletin pointing to the nature of the Church as incuding all of God's "elect", which includes even the holy angels.
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« Reply #107 on: July 14, 2011, 09:40:38 PM »

That's true. If we believe that God foreknew everything in the sense that you're speaking of, we can argue that the Church started at the beginning, the very beginning.
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« Reply #108 on: July 15, 2011, 01:38:50 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Also, in some contexts, 'Master' can mean 'Teacher.'

Just throwing that out there.  Smiley

Rabbi means teacher too.

We are not supposed to call anybody these.   God told us so.
On what authority do we have it that Jesus is God?

Yeshua said that he was God.

"Before Abraham was born I AM"
But who was it that recorded that statement? HINT: He was also an apostle.

Yes, John was an Apostle.  The beloved.

Who was it that said "Call no man rabbi, father, or master"?  HINT: He was part of the Trinity.
Who calls people "Father and Master"?  HINT: It's a church that claims its the one true church.

Who washed your feet last in your church as God commanded?
Who's hand do you venerate as a non-equal brethren?
When is the last time you bishop washed your feet as a brother?
When was the last time you kissed up to your bishop as if he was something overwhelmingly special?

Which apostle venerated images of the likeness of things on heaven and earth?
Which church plays like your veneration is like "beaming up" your veneration to the person "represented"?
What did God tell you not to make in the 1st commandment?
What is an iconostasis and what apostle did that?
What "father" do you confess your sins to?  Or do you to it to "one another" as commanded?
When you pray before meals do you thank God in your prayer as taught by God?
Which table of oblation did Christ use again in the last supper?
When did Christ or any apostle venerate Mary?

You people act as though I'm nuts.  

I'm not the one kissing paint and wood that was "blessed" by a "father" bowing and crossing myself thinking it makes any difference.   I'm just here telling you the iconostasis did NOT exist, nor the structure of the church as you know it to the original apostles.

I'm here saying the orignal apostles are our brethren, and that's how God set it up.

It is my firm belief that Eastern Orthodoxy is merely a dogma laced morph of the beautiful early church that once existed.   Just because you call these guys saints (such as James) and label him a patriarch, doesn't mean that's really what he was.  He was our brother, our brethren.

All this fluff is just a bunch of OCD superstition of the once beautiful church that existed.  

I mean.. ya know... Everybody has a halo.  Uh huh....

Early Christianity was a lot more Jewish than most of you can imagine.  There was no

1) Iconostasis.
2) Veneration of hands.
3) Worries of apostolic succession.
4) 80,000 pieces of dogma and procedure.
5) Communion was more of a passover meal, not some huge drawn out blessing in a consecrated altar behind an iconostasis with byzantine king garb.


If I'm wrong show me of the iconostasis in EARLY Christianity. 100-200 A.D.
If I'm wrong show me where everybody venerated icons in EARLY Christianity.
If I'm wrong show me all of the extreme dogma in EARLY Christianity.
If I'm wrong show me where confession was to a church "father" in EARLY Christianity.

So basically pipe out all the excuses and explanations.

The explanations to my questions are "The church evolved, and we kiss wood & paint because of...."
Too many excuses.  Too many explanations.   Even the "Patriarchs" are in ecumenism, which slaps Eastern Orthodox tradition in the face.  But people make excuses and have explanations for that.

So explain to me again.

When GOD - not apostles - but GOD - yes  YHWH, Yeshua, and the Holy Spirit says:
1) Call no man FATHER
2) Call no man Rabbi
3) Call no man MASTER

Why do the Eastern Orthodox Christians say:  But because.... and this... and that.....  this is why.... and "I'm messing with Texas"... and "You are ignorant".......  

The bottom line is you are disobeying Yeshua, your God.   He said NOT TO do it.   No matter what theologian, priest, or church elder has made excuses for to disobey him.

I'm having trouble understanding the logic of many here.   No means no.  Not means not.  Do not means "Do not".

GOD the top of all authority said:  "DO NOT"

You say: "We can because so and so, and this and that".

So are you going to continue to DO what God said "DO NOT" to?



Brother, do you honestly expect to come into an Orthodox forum and continually and rudely scathe Orthodoxy and the Holy Tradition and expect any of us to take you any more seriously then we already have? Lord have His Mercy are you that dense?  Calling us crazy for our adherence to the Holy Tradition is not very polite fellowship, I expect better from you as I usually enjoy your input to these discussions.  However, if you insist on being so vitriolic, well then that speaks for itself unfortunately Sad

I will only say this and reiterate it yet again:

Where does God say such things literally and personally? The Scriptures are a book, paper, that is all.  Sorry, they are not in themselves perfect nor Divine.  Rather, God Himself, in His Godhead, is perfect and true, and God Himself is Omnipotent well and beyond the limits of any kind of Scriptures or interpretations.  In Orthodox, we don't rely on Sola Scripture or to legalistically on the Tradition, instead we turn to God in our hearts directly.  Its not the Bible that speaks for God, God Himself is fully able to speak for Himself in the here and now.  So please, stop bible thumping on us, we are just ontologically on a different playing field in this regard to "listening to God"

We Commune directly with "Yehshua" and He speaks to us in our Church, not just the Scriptures, please stop insulting us by pretending He only speaks to you and your personalized interpretations of the Scriptures Wink

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I appreciate that you enjoy my input on most posts, so please do not judge me according to one.

I have a vast history in the Eastern Orthodox church, and have found that since the time of Nicea, it has strayed far from "tradition".  Perhaps "tradition of _____".  

Nobody will argue that the early Christians did not use an iconostasis for example.  We must always ask ourselves "why do we need it"?   We really don't.  

My perception of Orthodoxy has changed both because of the irony in the church (ecumenism) and also because I have done a lot of research on the Early Christians.  

I have looked for the fruit all over, and the best examples I can find were the anabaptists who actually stick to many of the early traditions of Christianity.   The  messianic Jews make sense as well, but the lessons and depths of both of those are cast out of Eastern Orthodoxy because "Eastern Orthodoxy is the true church".   It's a propaganda ploy of sorts.   "Our church is perfect".   (Despite schisms, fights, separations, even you are Oriental Orthodox --- Why?)

Many respond with hostility.  Perhaps both in frustration and irritation.  Many don't want to understand the clarity of God.  So several tactics are diverted and used against somebody when criticizing.  
1) Being Naive
2) Personal attacks
3) Ridicule
4) Troll tactics (look at a former post "I am messing with Texas")

The issue at hand is very direct.  People are making excuses for disobeying God.  Their excuses are:
1) The other apostles & Paul did it
2) "Father doesn't mean Father"
3) "Master doesn't mean Master"
4) Bringing incorrect translations of the Greek

I'm just asking a very simple and plain question.  If you erase everything else that was said in this forum or post.

God said (note GOD SAID) "Do not call ANY man Rabbi, Father, or Master".

The Eastern Orthodox call their priests "Father" and Bishops "Master".

When I see the excuses and explanations it sounds like what my oldest kids do.    

For example:  I told my oldest son "Don't play in the creek, it's a flash flood zone and storms from miles away can flood it instantly".  Son disobeys and plays in the creek.  I ask him "Why did you play in the creek when I told you not to".   Son says "My friend Jimmy was down there and he had an older brother who is 15 and we were fine".  

Is this disobedience or an explanation of why it was okay?

That's what I'm hearing & reading.

"The apostles wrote it so its okay"
"It's tradition so its fine"
"Father doesn't mean Father"

GOD said "Do NOT call any man Rabbi, Father, or Master".   What excuses are we going to give God for doing it anyway?
GOD said You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them. (Ex 20:2-5; cf. Deut 5:6-9)


Is this not blatant disobedience?  Or is there an excuse, explanation, or reason that they wish to give God?
God said "DON'T DO IT!!!"

Look they are doing it!  But they'll tell you they aren't but they really are!

Just like when we call priests "Father" and Bishops "Master".   It's complete disobedience to God!  

I'm bewildered and stumped when people can't see past the 10,000 page explanation and just SEE IT for what IS HAPPENING!

Just look at the commandment, and look at the picture!  All the clergy are bowing to the icons!  They are images in the likeness of things in heaven!

But you did ask a good question.  What am I doing on an Orthodox Forum.

The forum is called "Orthodox Christianity dot net".   Not "Eastern Orthodox Christianity" or "Oriental Orthodox Christianity".

I seek Orthodox Christianity.  I seek the right way (by definition).

God Bless.
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« Reply #109 on: July 15, 2011, 01:43:47 AM »

I seek Orthodox Christianity.  I seek the right way (by definition).
You think you're going to find it, though, when you're the one setting all the rules regarding what IS Orthodox? You don't want orthodoxy; you want a Christianity that fits the image you've already made. That, my friend, is probably a much worse graven image than any icon we can make.

BTW, you still haven't engaged any of the counter-arguments against your position. Ridiculing them often enough isn't going to make them ridiculous.
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« Reply #110 on: July 15, 2011, 05:14:06 AM »

The issue at hand is very direct.  People are making excuses for disobeying God.  Their excuses are:
3) "Master doesn't mean Master"
4) Bringing incorrect translations of the Greek

In the words of Bubba's mother: "Are you crazy, or just plain stupid?"

You are the one making excuses for your distortion of God's words by totally ignoring the Greek of the Bible and basing yourself entirely on English translation. Seeking the Truth by asking questions and being critical is entirely honourable, but refusing to reason with those you have criticised/enquired of is not.
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« Reply #111 on: July 15, 2011, 05:29:59 AM »

GOD said You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them. (Ex 20:2-5; cf. Deut 5:6-9)


Is this not blatant disobedience?  Or is there an excuse, explanation, or reason that they wish to give God?

If you just read a few pages beyond your single verse - this is called 'taking into consideration the context of the verse', worth trying - and you'll see the answer.

And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat. Exodus 25:18

Moreover thou shalt make the tabernacle with ten curtains of fine twined linen, and blue, and purple, and scarlet: with cherubims of cunning work shalt thou make them. Exodus 26:1-3

And the word of the LORD came to Solomon, saying, Concerning this house which thou art in building, if thou wilt walk in my statutes, and execute my judgments, and keep all my commandments to walk in them; then will I perform my word with thee, which I spake unto David thy father: And I will dwell among the children of Israel, and will not forsake my people Israel. So Solomon built the house, and finished it...And he carved all the walls of the house round about with carved figures of cherubims and palm trees and open flowers, within and without. 3 Kingdoms (1 Kings) 6:12-14, 29.

So clearly, God Himself commanded people to 'disobediently' fill their house of worship with images of things both in heaven and on earth.

As for the bowing, we do not bow to paint and wood, but to the person depicted upon it. God says time and again in the Scriptures that He was to be found between the two (graven images of) Cherubim. When Jews bowed in prayer towards the Mercy Seat, did they bow to the gold cherubim or to the God whose presence they symbolised?
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« Reply #112 on: July 15, 2011, 09:35:28 AM »

My perception of Orthodoxy has changed both because of the irony in the church (ecumenism) and also because I have done a lot of research on the Early Christians.  

I have looked for the fruit all over, and the best examples I can find were the anabaptists who actually stick to many of the early traditions of Christianity.   The  messianic Jews make sense as well....
So what keeps you from joining one of these groups?
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« Reply #113 on: July 15, 2011, 11:58:44 AM »

You say we kiss hands and bow and that it is so wrong but you have to put it in context. If you were to meet the President you would talk and act in a certain way showing respect to him or to the office. In the time that Christianity flourished the way you showed respect to authority was bowing and kissing. We have just kept the mechanics from back then. It is not different. You just have such the American mindset that you don't show respect to anyone and that no one is "above" you in a position of authority. I find many Protestants (including myself at one point) have issues with accepting authority since they live in such an individualistic society. Christ also said to act like a guest everywhere you go. When you're a guest you so great honor and respect to those around you. We just do it how they did it in antiquity rather than how Americans do it now.
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« Reply #114 on: July 15, 2011, 12:53:28 PM »

The issue at hand is very direct.  People are making excuses for disobeying God.  Their excuses are:
3) "Master doesn't mean Master"
4) Bringing incorrect translations of the Greek

In the words of Bubba's mother: "Are you crazy, or just plain stupid?"

You are the one making excuses for your distortion of God's words by totally ignoring the Greek of the Bible and basing yourself entirely on English translation. Seeking the Truth by asking questions and being critical is entirely honourable, but refusing to reason with those you have criticised/enquired of is not.

You need to re-read the Greek.  Like I said.
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« Reply #115 on: July 15, 2011, 12:53:28 PM »

I seek Orthodox Christianity.  I seek the right way (by definition).
You think you're going to find it, though, when you're the one setting all the rules regarding what IS Orthodox? You don't want orthodoxy; you want a Christianity that fits the image you've already made. That, my friend, is probably a much worse graven image than any icon we can make.

BTW, you still haven't engaged any of the counter-arguments against your position. Ridiculing them often enough isn't going to make them ridiculous.

So you'd rather trust someone that defines Orthodoxy like a "saint" who had a son who slept with his on mom?  Then the saint put his own son & wife to death?  I mean can somebody say "Jerry Springer on steroids"?

Gee stinks that I go off my own intuition being a loyal husband and a parent to 5 children.  :OP
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« Reply #116 on: July 15, 2011, 12:53:29 PM »

Yeshuaism, I am hereby considering you a troll until you address at least one of the arguments in my posts.  Consequently, until this happens,  I will ignore every post of yours anywhere on the board.  This means any question you ask or comments on any post of mine in any thread.  I just wanted to give you fair warning so you don't think I am unable to answer your claims or questions or concerns with any of my posts, in the future.

Sorry, somehow I got myself moderated and my posts don't appear after I type.  Gotta peck & choose.
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« Reply #117 on: July 15, 2011, 12:53:29 PM »

GOD said You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them. (Ex 20:2-5; cf. Deut 5:6-9)


Is this not blatant disobedience?  Or is there an excuse, explanation, or reason that they wish to give God?

If you just read a few pages beyond your single verse - this is called 'taking into consideration the context of the verse', worth trying - and you'll see the answer.

And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat. Exodus 25:18

Moreover thou shalt make the tabernacle with ten curtains of fine twined linen, and blue, and purple, and scarlet: with cherubims of cunning work shalt thou make them. Exodus 26:1-3

And the word of the LORD came to Solomon, saying, Concerning this house which thou art in building, if thou wilt walk in my statutes, and execute my judgments, and keep all my commandments to walk in them; then will I perform my word with thee, which I spake unto David thy father: And I will dwell among the children of Israel, and will not forsake my people Israel. So Solomon built the house, and finished it...And he carved all the walls of the house round about with carved figures of cherubims and palm trees and open flowers, within and without. 3 Kingdoms (1 Kings) 6:12-14, 29.

So clearly, God Himself commanded people to 'disobediently' fill their house of worship with images of things both in heaven and on earth.

As for the bowing, we do not bow to paint and wood, but to the person depicted upon it. God says time and again in the Scriptures that He was to be found between the two (graven images of) Cherubim. When Jews bowed in prayer towards the Mercy Seat, did they bow to the gold cherubim or to the God whose presence they symbolised?

This is what I'm talking about, and you call me stupid over it.

God said do not make an image right?
God said you can make an image of a cherubim right?

So you take that and say "Ah, okay, now we can make images of all of it". ??

Solomon carved images of cherubims.

I don't see why this is thought that you can make images of everything now.

God was laying out his law.  Cherubims OKAY he specified them.

Jesus, Constantine, Helena, John, Mary, The Trinity, Etc. etc. etc. and etc.   Where were those specified again?
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« Reply #118 on: July 15, 2011, 12:53:29 PM »

My perception of Orthodoxy has changed both because of the irony in the church (ecumenism) and also because I have done a lot of research on the Early Christians.  

I have looked for the fruit all over, and the best examples I can find were the anabaptists who actually stick to many of the early traditions of Christianity.   The  messianic Jews make sense as well....
So what keeps you from joining one of these groups?

We are in transition.   We have many Mennonite and Amish friends.   Their actions heavily reflect that of early Christians.  I'm very stumped when I see them of their vast yet simplistic knowledge of Christianity.   The Ordnungs kind of hold us back, but the faith & lifestyle in many parts are extremely Christian.

Hutterites are amazing as well.   Full communal living (yes the laymen not just monks/nuns) as the early Christians lived.
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« Reply #119 on: July 15, 2011, 01:08:26 PM »

Just because our brethren did it doesn't mean we should.

Yes it does.

Be ye imitators of me, even as I also am of Christ.
–St Paul, 1 Corinthians 11:1
[/quote]

Just because all your friends jump off a bridge does not mean that you have to as well.

Just because some of the apostles said "father" does not make it right.  Remember there were also apostles that denied Christ, and Paul murdered Christians in cold blood. [/quote]

But the Holy Ghost who is, after all, responsible for every word of Scripture does not permit them to advise us to deny Him or to murder each other! Yet Paul does advise us to imitate him. How can a direct instruction from an Apostle in a document inspired by the Lord, the Giver of Life, not be life-giving?

Margaret

(sorry, messed up the quote section)
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« Reply #120 on: July 15, 2011, 01:09:07 PM »

I seek Orthodox Christianity.  I seek the right way (by definition).
You think you're going to find it, though, when you're the one setting all the rules regarding what IS Orthodox? You don't want orthodoxy; you want a Christianity that fits the image you've already made. That, my friend, is probably a much worse graven image than any icon we can make.

BTW, you still haven't engaged any of the counter-arguments against your position. Ridiculing them often enough isn't going to make them ridiculous.

So you'd rather trust someone that defines Orthodoxy like a "saint" who had a son who slept with his on mom?  Then the saint put his own son & wife to death?  I mean can somebody say "Jerry Springer on steroids"?

Gee stinks that I go off my own intuition being a loyal husband and a parent to 5 children.  :OP
Dodging the rebuttal with such a gross reductio ad absurdum is no way to engage a rebuttal of your position.

How about, for instance, my argument that rejection of the teaching of the Apostle Paul is rejection of Christ Himself?
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« Reply #121 on: July 15, 2011, 01:19:48 PM »

GOD said You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them. (Ex 20:2-5; cf. Deut 5:6-9)


Is this not blatant disobedience?  Or is there an excuse, explanation, or reason that they wish to give God?

If you just read a few pages beyond your single verse - this is called 'taking into consideration the context of the verse', worth trying - and you'll see the answer.

And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat. Exodus 25:18

Moreover thou shalt make the tabernacle with ten curtains of fine twined linen, and blue, and purple, and scarlet: with cherubims of cunning work shalt thou make them. Exodus 26:1-3

And the word of the LORD came to Solomon, saying, Concerning this house which thou art in building, if thou wilt walk in my statutes, and execute my judgments, and keep all my commandments to walk in them; then will I perform my word with thee, which I spake unto David thy father: And I will dwell among the children of Israel, and will not forsake my people Israel. So Solomon built the house, and finished it...And he carved all the walls of the house round about with carved figures of cherubims and palm trees and open flowers, within and without. 3 Kingdoms (1 Kings) 6:12-14, 29.

So clearly, God Himself commanded people to 'disobediently' fill their house of worship with images of things both in heaven and on earth.

As for the bowing, we do not bow to paint and wood, but to the person depicted upon it. God says time and again in the Scriptures that He was to be found between the two (graven images of) Cherubim. When Jews bowed in prayer towards the Mercy Seat, did they bow to the gold cherubim or to the God whose presence they symbolised?

This is what I'm talking about, and you call me stupid over it.

God said do not make an image right?
God said you can make an image of a cherubim right?

So you take that and say "Ah, okay, now we can make images of all of it". ??

Solomon carved images of cherubims.

I don't see why this is thought that you can make images of everything now.

God was laying out his law.  Cherubims OKAY he specified them.

Jesus, Constantine, Helena, John, Mary, The Trinity, Etc. etc. etc. and etc.   Where were those specified again?

So if Jesus were around now it would be a sin to take and develop a picture of him? They didn't have cameras so they painted. Jesus was the ultimate image of God on earth and we are just representing that.
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« Reply #122 on: July 15, 2011, 01:25:12 PM »

This thread resembles one of Alfreds more and more each day. I love how those people who are not in the Church think they can accurately say how the Church was back in the day.
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« Reply #123 on: July 15, 2011, 01:28:43 PM »

If you don't think that the Amish and Mennonite church doesn't have serious issues, you're going to have a problem.

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« Reply #124 on: July 15, 2011, 02:23:19 PM »

You need to re-read the Greek.  Like I said.

Why don't you post whatever Greek text you're basing your argument on to prove your point?

God said do not make an image right?
God said you can make an image of a cherubim right?

So you take that and say "Ah, okay, now we can make images of all of it". ??

Solomon carved images of cherubims.

I don't see why this is thought that you can make images of everything now.

God was laying out his law.  Cherubims OKAY he specified them.

Jesus, Constantine, Helena, John, Mary, The Trinity, Etc. etc. etc. and etc.   Where were those specified again?

God said you shouldn't make an image of anything on heaven or on earth. If taken literally, that would mean a prohibition on anything: angels, humans, mammals, reptiles, insects, trees, flowers, rivers, mountains, etc. etc. In others words, anything but abstract art would be a no no - a la what you find among very strict Muslims who limit themselves to geometric shapes, caligraphy, etc.

When you read on, you see God commanding the depicting of Cherubim, and blessing Solomon's depictions of trees and flowers. No explanation is given for these depictions of things on both heaven and earth, there is no "you shalt not make an image of...except", it's just taken for granted that these are permissible.

Rather than suggesting that cherubim, snakes, palms and flowers are some sort of weird exception to the rule, what this shows is that the rule applies to a particular kind of imagery. Indeed, the "and bow down to it" part makes it quite clear that what is being prohibited is not the making of imagery in general, but the manufacturing of idols for the purposes of worship. It was a command to combat those who "changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things...and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever" (Rom 1:23,25).

This becomes abundantly clear when God commands Moses to make an image of a snake, and even works miracles of healing through it, but the second that image becomes an image of worship He orders it to be destroyed.
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« Reply #125 on: July 15, 2011, 02:36:02 PM »

GOD said "Do NOT call any man Rabbi, Father, or Master".
What about all the times GOD called men "Father"? (Click here to see them.)

Funny that God doesn't obey his own rules, in your world.

Sorry, somehow I got myself moderated and my posts don't appear after I type.  Gotta peck & choose.

Funny you never happen to choose the arguments that you can't refute. And incidentally, you are a troll, because (with great difficulty, no doubt) you somehow managed to reply to James' post but didn't respond to his argument.
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« Reply #126 on: July 15, 2011, 02:42:02 PM »

This thread resembles one of Alfreds more and more each day. I love how those people who are not in the Church think they can accurately say how the Church was back in the day.

Agreed. At times like these, I think of the prayer before Communion, "I will not speak of thy mysteries to thine enemies", and regret getting involved.
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« Reply #127 on: July 15, 2011, 04:42:24 PM »

I seek Orthodox Christianity.  I seek the right way (by definition).
You think you're going to find it, though, when you're the one setting all the rules regarding what IS Orthodox? You don't want orthodoxy; you want a Christianity that fits the image you've already made. That, my friend, is probably a much worse graven image than any icon we can make.

BTW, you still haven't engaged any of the counter-arguments against your position. Ridiculing them often enough isn't going to make them ridiculous.

So you'd rather trust someone that defines Orthodoxy like a "saint" who had a son who slept with his on mom?  Then the saint put his own son & wife to death?  I mean can somebody say "Jerry Springer on steroids"?

Gee stinks that I go off my own intuition being a loyal husband and a parent to 5 children.  :OP
Dodging the rebuttal with such a gross reductio ad absurdum is no way to engage a rebuttal of your position.

How about, for instance, my argument that rejection of the teaching of the Apostle Paul is rejection of Christ Himself?

How about my argument about when did God say that rejecting anything of the Apostle Paul was rejecting Christ?
Perhaps we should follow Paul's lead at first and start murdering Christians?
Face it, that's made up nonsense.

Yeshua never gave Paul that type of authority, of course, unless written by Paul.
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« Reply #128 on: July 15, 2011, 04:42:24 PM »

I seek Orthodox Christianity.  I seek the right way (by definition).
You think you're going to find it, though, when you're the one setting all the rules regarding what IS Orthodox? You don't want orthodoxy; you want a Christianity that fits the image you've already made. That, my friend, is probably a much worse graven image than any icon we can make.

BTW, you still haven't engaged any of the counter-arguments against your position. Ridiculing them often enough isn't going to make them ridiculous.

So you'd rather trust someone that defines Orthodoxy like a "saint" who had a son who slept with his on mom?  Then the saint put his own son & wife to death?  I mean can somebody say "Jerry Springer on steroids"?

Gee stinks that I go off my own intuition being a loyal husband and a parent to 5 children.  :OP
Dodging the rebuttal with such a gross reductio ad absurdum is no way to engage a rebuttal of your position.

How about, for instance, my argument that rejection of the teaching of the Apostle Paul is rejection of Christ Himself?

By the way, I wasn't dodging a rebuttal.   You said "when you're the one setting all the rules regarding what IS Orthodox?".

Also when you say reductio ad absurdum, you are using it in an incorrect context.   If you don't know the "saint" I'm referring to, you need to look up all that attended Nicea.

You basically are saying I am defining what is Orthodox which is not true.  The early Christian practices (hundreds of years before Nicea) define what is Orthodox, as well as God defines what is Orthodox.

Also, I am making a sarcastic comeback to your logic.  You de-emphasize me as if I couldn't understand what original Christianity is, while you follow the structured church that had a saint that had a son that slept with his own wife and he put both of them to death. Sounds like a good Christian to follow...  Of course, no not me, a loyal husband and father to 5 kids, no way I could be right.   

It's like "Your logic is all stupid, and so is your research because I have my church".   I'm saying "Your church has a major saint that was such a bad parent and husband that his own son had sex with his wife - he was such a saint he executed both of them".   Or did you read Constantine's Sword?

To basically say my reasoning has indirect proof is ridiculous.

Look at the photo.  They aren't bowing to heaven to the saints.  They are bowing to paint & wood in the likeness of something in heaven.  Do you see all the candles.. Good grief it's not hard to see that they are just making excuses to disobey God.

Just look at it.  BOWING down to IMAGES to things of the LIKENESS of ones in HEAVEN!!

But no, my Reductio ad absurdum screwed up reasoning has indirect proof. ?     What?  How about this - prove to me they are bowing to the people in heaven and not paint an wood.   All I see is they are in a circle of sorts bowing with icons in the middle.

"Oh but I'm not bowing to the icon of course, I'm bowing to the person really represented in the image".
"Oh I'm not kissing the icon, I'm kissing the person in the image"

When was the last time an icon kissed you back, was warm, or soft like a brother or sister?

And my arguments are messed up?  It's paint and wood, and complete disobedience to God.
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« Reply #129 on: July 15, 2011, 04:42:24 PM »

GOD said You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them. (Ex 20:2-5; cf. Deut 5:6-9)


Is this not blatant disobedience?  Or is there an excuse, explanation, or reason that they wish to give God?

If you just read a few pages beyond your single verse - this is called 'taking into consideration the context of the verse', worth trying - and you'll see the answer.

And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat. Exodus 25:18

Moreover thou shalt make the tabernacle with ten curtains of fine twined linen, and blue, and purple, and scarlet: with cherubims of cunning work shalt thou make them. Exodus 26:1-3

And the word of the LORD came to Solomon, saying, Concerning this house which thou art in building, if thou wilt walk in my statutes, and execute my judgments, and keep all my commandments to walk in them; then will I perform my word with thee, which I spake unto David thy father: And I will dwell among the children of Israel, and will not forsake my people Israel. So Solomon built the house, and finished it...And he carved all the walls of the house round about with carved figures of cherubims and palm trees and open flowers, within and without. 3 Kingdoms (1 Kings) 6:12-14, 29.

So clearly, God Himself commanded people to 'disobediently' fill their house of worship with images of things both in heaven and on earth.

As for the bowing, we do not bow to paint and wood, but to the person depicted upon it. God says time and again in the Scriptures that He was to be found between the two (graven images of) Cherubim. When Jews bowed in prayer towards the Mercy Seat, did they bow to the gold cherubim or to the God whose presence they symbolised?

This is what I'm talking about, and you call me stupid over it.

God said do not make an image right?
God said you can make an image of a cherubim right?

So you take that and say "Ah, okay, now we can make images of all of it". ??

Solomon carved images of cherubims.

I don't see why this is thought that you can make images of everything now.

God was laying out his law.  Cherubims OKAY he specified them.

Jesus, Constantine, Helena, John, Mary, The Trinity, Etc. etc. etc. and etc.   Where were those specified again?

So if Jesus were around now it would be a sin to take and develop a picture of him? They didn't have cameras so they painted. Jesus was the ultimate image of God on earth and we are just representing that.

GOD said You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them. (Ex 20:2-5; cf. Deut 5:6-9)

There's a reason the group that I am finding to be more like the original Christians does not have photographs taken.  The Amish turn away from the cameras.

Yes I do believe that it would be a sin to photograph Yeshua today and develop a picture of him.  But of course, I don't know for a fact.  Because if he was around on Earth today in the flesh, I would be all ears. 
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« Reply #130 on: July 15, 2011, 04:42:24 PM »

You say we kiss hands and bow and that it is so wrong but you have to put it in context. If you were to meet the President you would talk and act in a certain way showing respect to him or to the office. In the time that Christianity flourished the way you showed respect to authority was bowing and kissing. We have just kept the mechanics from back then. It is not different. You just have such the American mindset that you don't show respect to anyone and that no one is "above" you in a position of authority. I find many Protestants (including myself at one point) have issues with accepting authority since they live in such an individualistic society. Christ also said to act like a guest everywhere you go. When you're a guest you so great honor and respect to those around you. We just do it how they did it in antiquity rather than how Americans do it now.

God taught us that he is the authority.

That is the point of the thread.  Nobody is above you.  We are not to call ANY MAN Rabbi, Father, or MASTER.

We are all BRETHREN.   This is directly said from God.

To turn around and say "but this... but that... he said this... he said that.... tradition..." is justifying disobedience to directly what Yeshua our God said.   Nobody is above us but God.   We are all Brethren.   God said it himself.
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« Reply #131 on: July 15, 2011, 04:53:02 PM »

This thread resembles one of Alfreds more and more each day. I love how those people who are not in the Church think they can accurately say how the Church was back in the day.

If you are referring to me,

I've been a part of the Eastern Orthodox church almost all my life
I've lived at St. Vladimir's seminary in New York
I've traveled all over the world to see Orthodoxy including Mt. Athos

I've been part of the OCA and ROCOR for many years.  
I've seen all kinds of clergy, monasteries, and churches.

But also an outsider can answer these questions.  They can simply do their research.
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« Reply #132 on: July 15, 2011, 04:56:28 PM »

If you don't think that the Amish and Mennonite church doesn't have serious issues, you're going to have a problem.

Every large church body has it's issues.

It's "What it is supposed to be" that is important.

I don't criticize issues in the EO church such as sex abuse scandals etc.  Those are just sick people and of course it is not supposed to be like that.  Same thing goes for the Anabaptist churches.  There are always sick people.

The thing I criticize is what the church IS supposed to do and not.  I see many priests in that photo bowing to paint and wood.  In a circular pattern.  No way are they bowing to the person in heaven.
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« Reply #133 on: July 15, 2011, 05:00:25 PM »

You need to re-read the Greek.  Like I said.

Why don't you post whatever Greek text you're basing your argument on to prove your point?

God said do not make an image right?
God said you can make an image of a cherubim right?

So you take that and say "Ah, okay, now we can make images of all of it". ??

Solomon carved images of cherubims.

I don't see why this is thought that you can make images of everything now.

God was laying out his law.  Cherubims OKAY he specified them.

Jesus, Constantine, Helena, John, Mary, The Trinity, Etc. etc. etc. and etc.   Where were those specified again?

God said you shouldn't make an image of anything on heaven or on earth. If taken literally, that would mean a prohibition on anything: angels, humans, mammals, reptiles, insects, trees, flowers, rivers, mountains, etc. etc. In others words, anything but abstract art would be a no no - a la what you find among very strict Muslims who limit themselves to geometric shapes, caligraphy, etc.

When you read on, you see God commanding the depicting of Cherubim, and blessing Solomon's depictions of trees and flowers. No explanation is given for these depictions of things on both heaven and earth, there is no "you shalt not make an image of...except", it's just taken for granted that these are permissible.

Rather than suggesting that cherubim, snakes, palms and flowers are some sort of weird exception to the rule, what this shows is that the rule applies to a particular kind of imagery. Indeed, the "and bow down to it" part makes it quite clear that what is being prohibited is not the making of imagery in general, but the manufacturing of idols for the purposes of worship. It was a command to combat those who "changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things...and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever" (Rom 1:23,25).

This becomes abundantly clear when God commands Moses to make an image of a snake, and even works miracles of healing through it, but the second that image becomes an image of worship He orders it to be destroyed.

Wrong.  Look up the word "likeness" in Hebrew.  God also gave special permission for the Cherubim.   I don't know if I can post any Jewish information here about the likeness, things haven't gone so well for me in the past when I give out factual Jewish info.

The Greek is unimportant right now.  That's another topic and diverts sorry I'll get off it.

Do you bow and touch the floor saying "Master Bless"?  If you do you are calling him "Master".
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« Reply #134 on: July 15, 2011, 05:03:05 PM »

GOD said "Do NOT call any man Rabbi, Father, or Master".
What about all the times GOD called men "Father"? (Click here to see them.)

Funny that God doesn't obey his own rules, in your world.

Sorry, somehow I got myself moderated and my posts don't appear after I type.  Gotta peck & choose.

Funny you never happen to choose the arguments that you can't refute. And incidentally, you are a troll, because (with great difficulty, no doubt) you somehow managed to reply to James' post but didn't respond to his argument.

What about GOD CAN DO WHATEVER HE WANTS.
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