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Author Topic: Do the Orthodox disobey God in their practice?  (Read 10887 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: July 12, 2011, 05:26:20 PM »

Re. 'master' in this verse: The word used in the NT is 'καθηγηταί', which is certainly not what you call a bishop when asking his blessing. In that context, 'master' is a translation of 'δέσποτα'.
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« Reply #46 on: July 12, 2011, 07:13:26 PM »

I have noticed a lot of back and forth in this thread. God tells us not to call any man father, etc. Yet God also tells us to cut off our hands and pluck out our eyes, which if we all did as God said none of us would be on this thread making this discussion go on ad nauseum. It boils down to this, are you using your own interpretation of the Bible or are you using the Church's? If your own, I would advise to rexonsider your interpretation and get back to us when you no longer have any eyes or hands, after all God commands us to! Before you come in here and tell us that we have speck of dust in our eye, perhaps you should examine the skyscraper sticking out of your own (I imagine that insurance won't cover the whole cost for that). 
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« Reply #47 on: July 12, 2011, 07:15:04 PM »

Also, in some contexts, 'Master' can mean 'Teacher.'

Just throwing that out there.  Smiley
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« Reply #48 on: July 12, 2011, 09:28:42 PM »

I believe it was St. Jerome who answered essentially the following question regarding Matt. 23.9: "were the apostles sinning and the apostolic scriptures in error when referring to men as father"?   His reply was rather simple and to the point:
The fact that we have one Son of God by nature does not prevent others from being understood as sons of God by adoption.  
Similarly, because we have one who is Father by nature and one who is Teacher by nature does not prevent others by grace in this same adoption from being fathers and teachers.    God the Father is the original by nature, the sole "cause" and thus Father of all by nature, and all others by grace.  Likewise, the Son is the only Begotten Son (i.e. by nature), but in Him many sons by grace.    

Of course, the context of "where the apostles sinning" etc. is the fact that every writer of the New Testament refers to men as fathers.  In addition to St. Paul's quotes, for example, we have:

  1 John 2:13
I write to you, fathers, Because you have known Him who is from the beginning. I write to you, young men, Because you have overcome the wicked one. I write to you, little children, Because you have known the Father.

1 John 2:14
I have written to you, fathers, Because you have known Him who is from the beginning. I have written to you, young men, Because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, And you have overcome the wicked one.
1 Peter 1:18
knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers,
James 2:21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?

BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY, YOU MUST ASK YOURSELF...

Was the Holy Spirit sinning when He moved St. Zacharias to call men his fathers?:  

"Now his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying: '...to perform the mercy promised to our fathers And to remember His holy covenant...the oath which He swore to our father Abraham'" (Luke 1.67-73)

Of course not.  The Holy Spirit does not sin against the Son, nor the Son against the Spirit.    


You have addressed none of the points above nor answered the question here: 

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,37784.msg599327.html#msg599327
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« Reply #49 on: July 12, 2011, 10:06:31 PM »

Call no man Father, Rabbi, or Master.

Eastern Orthodox call their priests "Father" and Bishops "Master".

This is clear cut.

We should call the priests and Bishops "Brethren or Brothers or even "Bishop or Priest" is fine. 
This is because Christ told us "we are all brothers".

This is why your "metropolitan" should be bending over and washing your feet which was also commanded by God, as you should wash his.  But no, he's called master and people kiss his hand and hold him as more significant than themselves. 

Of course everybody wants to stick with "Father" to contort the disobedience to God with excuses, but nobody has talked about "Master".



That's clergy washing clergy's feet, not Bishops washing laymen's feet.  We are brethren.

"That's clergy washing clergy's feet"
exactly. 

Matthew 23.1: 
1 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples
Notice the order.   It does not say that He spoke to "His disciples and the multitudes" but rather the other way around, which linguistically indicates that first He is talking to one, and then the other.   In this case "the disciples" refers to the 12, as there were many among the multitudes who were his followers.  The first things he says cannot apply to the 12:
 “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 Therefore whatever they tell you to observe..."
Likewise, the passage from verse 8 onward becomes specific and certainly does not apply to the multitude.  The multitide would not be called "rabbi," but only the leaders, the Apostles.   They are not to require of other apostolic disciples that they consider them their teacher, for all apostolic leaders (bishops) have one as their teacher, and they are all brethren in the apostolic ministry.   Likewise, none of them is to call another apostolic leader their father, for there is one Father of all apostolic leaders.   Likewise, for all apostolic disciples, one is not to demand of another (say, for example, Peter to demand of Bartholomew) nor even to accept to be called their master, for as apostolic disciples, they have one master.  And we know that He is talking to the Apostles solely in these verses because in all other cases in which Christ states what He states in verse 11, He is only speaking to the Apostles.

Therefore, as is clear from the reading, in verses 1-7 He speaks to the multitudes.  In verse 8 and ff He turns specifically to the Apostles and gives them instructions as brethren in the Apostolic ministry.   In verse 13ff He ceases speaking to the Apostles, nor is He speaking again to the multitudes as a whole, but to the Scribes and Pharisees specifically. 

If anything the verses in question speak against mono-papism within the episcopacy, but certainly not against Orthodox teaching and praxis. 

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« Reply #50 on: July 12, 2011, 10:54:05 PM »

Acts 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers

Acts 3:25 the covenant which God made with our fathers

Acts 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus

Acts 7:2 The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham

Acts 7:4 from thence, when his father was dead

Acts 7:11 our fathers found no sustenance

Acts 7:12  he sent out our fathers first

Acts 7:14 Then sent Joseph, and called his father Jacob to him

Acts 7:15 he, and our fathers

Acts 7:16 Emmor the father of Sychem

Acts 7:19 evil entreated our fathers

Acts 7:20 nourished up in his father's house

Acts 7:32 I am the God of thy fathers

Acts 7:38 with our fathers

Acts 7:39 To whom our fathers would not obey

Acts 7:44 Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness

Acts 7:45 Which also our fathers

Acts 7:51 as your fathers did, so do ye

Acts 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted?

Acts 13:17 The God of this people of Israel chose our fathers

Acts 13:32 how that the promise which was made unto the fathers

Acts 13:36 and was laid unto his fathers

Acts 15:10 neither our fathers nor we were able to bear

Acts 16:1 but his father was a Greek

Acts 16:3 for they knew all that his father was a Greek

Acts 22:1 Men, brethren, and fathers, hear ye my defence which I make now unto you.

Acts 22:3 the law of the fathers

Acts 22:14 The God of our fathers hath chosen thee

Acts 24:14 so worship I the God of my fathers

Acts 26:6 the promise made of God, unto our fathers

Acts 28:8 the father of Publius lay sick

Acts 28:17 customs of our fathers

Acts 28:25 Esaias the prophet unto our fathers

Romans 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father

Romans 4:11 the father of all them that believe

Romans 4:12 our father Abraham

Romans 4:16 Abraham; who is the father of us all

Romans 4:17 I have made thee a father of many nations

Romans 4:18 that he might become the father of many nations

Romans 9:5 Whose are the fathers

Romans 9:10 our father Isaac

Romans 11:28 for the father's sakes

Romans 15:8 to confirm the promises made unto the fathers

1 Corinthians 5:1 that one should have his father's wife

1 Corinthians 10:1 all our fathers were under the cloud

Galatians 1:14 traditions of my fathers

Ephesians 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother

Ephesians 6:2 Honour thy father and mother

Ephesians 6:4 And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath

Philippians 2:22 as a son with the father

1 Timothy 5:1 intreat him as a father

Hebrews 1:1 unto the fathers by the prophets

Hebrews 3:9 When your fathers tempted me

Hebrews 7:3 Without father, without mother

Hebrews 7:10 For he was yet in the loins of his father

Hebrews 8:9 the covenant that I made with their fathers

Hebrews 12:7 what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

Hebrews 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works

1 Peter 1:18 received by tradition from your fathers

2 Peter 3:4 for since the fathers fell asleep

1 John 2:13 I write unto you, fathers

1 John 2:14 I have written unto you, fathers

Oops.
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« Reply #51 on: July 12, 2011, 11:03:24 PM »

Yeshuaisiam, if you read the entire chapter, it becomes quite apparent he is speaking about hypocrites.  Men who seek after fame and honor, who glory in the title of Father, or Master.  It is not speaking about legitimate spiritual fathers, people who do not enjoy being a priest simply because they like prestige and being called Father.

If you read the passage so literally, what do you call the person who stands in front of a room full of ten year olds and educates them on math?  Do you call them a "Mathematical Illuminator" or perhaps "Chief Dissemination Officer for Mathematical Knowledge"?  No.  You call them teacher.  That is because they teach.  To call them otherwise, or to deny them the title, would be hypocritical.  As well, it would be hypocritical if you came up with any word meaning the same thing for a teacher, master, father, etc.  If you said educator, or boss, or dad, those would all be sins as well, because you would be in violation of the spirit of the commandment, if you were right about how Christ's words are to be interpreted.  You would be forced to call the person whose semen helped to create you by his first name or, possibly, "Mr. Last Name."  You could not call him by any special title or reference, not dad or daddy, not father, not biological father, not any special name that you give him because he fathered you.  It would even be hypocritical to say that he fathered you, and yet deny him the title father.  Does Christ endorse hypocrisy, because it would seem to me he rails against it frequently.

If you must attack the Orthodox Church, please at least pick something like icons, or saints, not something so easily and quickly refuted by a simple reading of the context of the passage.


Since you think all of your responses have been snarky comments, please read mine, you may have missed it before, but I have enlarged it now.

As well, I would add a comment.  If you think that calling priests and bishops 'priest' 'bishop' or 'brother' is fine but 'father' is prohibited, don't you think it is hypocritical since they are clearly in a fatherly role, spiritually speaking?
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« Reply #52 on: July 12, 2011, 11:22:23 PM »

Oh, and by the way, lest you accuse us of letting your accusation of "master" slip, Christ said καθηγηταί, and we call our Bishops despota.  So, that one does not work out for you, even in the literal reading and false accusation against God's Holy Orthodox Church. 
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« Reply #53 on: July 13, 2011, 12:48:40 AM »

If God tells you to not call a man Father or Master, and we say "but because Paul did this so can we", that's not a reason.  Paul was a sinner.  We have to read the actual words of God sometimes and we'll see how far things have gone.

Paul, inspired by the Holy Spirit, did this multiple times in scripture.

Paul did what God told him not to do too.  Where was it written again that Paul was inspired by the holy spirit?  Did Paul write it himself?
Then why don't you throw out everything written by an Apostle? Oh, wait... That would mean we have to throw out the Gospel of Matthew you so love quoting because that was written by an Apostle. Hmmm.
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« Reply #54 on: July 13, 2011, 12:53:14 AM »

yeshuaisiam, I notice you haven't said anything to address this:

Quote
I'm quoting the scripture that is from God's own words.

As you see them anyway.

Quote
since it seems to me you're only itching for a fight.

It couldn't be more apparent.


Yeshuaisiam. I've never had that much of a problem with you, but come on brother. If you have a question, ask a question. You set up these diligently worded "questions" and then attack the responders; its ridiculous. Who knows if the explanations are worthy for God, but it seems like you care much more about answers worthy to you.

Please don't have a problem with me either.

Believe me, it's much more than just trying to "troll" for answers or anything.  I've been involved in the Eastern Orthodox faith VERY heavily in my life, if not in practice at a church, I was in study.  I'm coming to find some of the teachings stray not only far, but insanely far from the scriptures,  early church fathers, and from the 1st century Christians.   I've watched "Bishops" betray the communion through ecumenism which lead to my studies that strayed me from "Eastern Orthodox".  I am a seeker of what is "Orthodox" or "The right way".  

I've come to find that one man's heresy is another man's salvation.  Also, that history was written by the victors.   Often the Victors cast out and banished those who spoke the truth.

If God tells you to not call a man Father or Master, and we say "but because Paul did this so can we", that's not a reason.  Paul was a sinner.  We have to read the actual words of God sometimes and we'll see how far things have gone.
St. Paul was an Apostle of Jesus Christ. Now, didn't Jesus say to His Apostles, of whom St. Paul was a member as one born late, "He who receives you receives Me"? Doesn't the converse of this then mean "He who rejects you rejects Me"? Be careful, then, how far you go in rejecting the teaching of the Apostle Paul because he was a sinner. After all, even the chief of the Apostles recognized Paul as an apostle like himself and Paul's teaching as true.

BTW, you do realize that the very Gospel from which you extracted your original quotes is fundamentally the teaching of the Apostle Matthew? Deny the teaching authority of the Apostles, and you deny the very foundation of what we believe to be the teachings of Christ Himself.

BTW, the Council of Jerusalem (cf. Acts, Chapter 15) recognized St. Paul as inspired by the Holy Spirit. So why don't you?
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« Reply #55 on: July 13, 2011, 12:56:47 AM »

Even his beloved Mennonites would start raising eyebrows at this point...
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« Reply #56 on: July 13, 2011, 12:58:43 AM »

Yesh, only a fool thinks he is perfect in obeying God.

But, again you are dodging the real question: if you are so obedient, tell me if you have both your eyes and both your hands?

 Wink



OK, so we have one picture.  What it does not tell us is whether bishops only wash priests' feet, or even if this bishop only washed this priest's feet and no other.

In most cases, I have seen bishops wash a number of people's feet during the same rite, usually a priest is included because during 'normal business hours' the bishop runs the priest's life rather completely.  Thus, it is a reversal in a very personal way for both.

But, seriously, you weren't really thinking a single picture was going to impugne the entire Orthodox CHurch, did you?



Call no man Father, Rabbi, or Master.

Eastern Orthodox call their priests "Father" and Bishops "Master".

This is clear cut.

We should call the priests and Bishops "Brethren or Brothers or even "Bishop or Priest" is fine. 
This is because Christ told us "we are all brothers".

This is why your "metropolitan" should be bending over and washing your feet which was also commanded by God, as you should wash his.  But no, he's called master and people kiss his hand and hold him as more significant than themselves. 

Of course everybody wants to stick with "Father" to contort the disobedience to God with excuses, but nobody has talked about "Master".



That's clergy washing clergy's feet, not Bishops washing laymen's feet.  We are brethren.

So somebody made a point with a single photo.
I commented on that photo.

Tell me when is the last time EVERYBODY that your bishop washed your feet?  Well that would be obedience to God who said to do it.
When was the last time you called your bishop "Master"?  Well that would be disobedience to God.
When was the last time your priest washed your feet?  Again, Obedience to God.
When is the last time you called your priest "Father"?  Disobedience to God.

When was the last time you had to make excuses and need explanations for disobeying God?



This is a contextual argument that strays far from the point. 
Yeshua was not speaking in symbols or parables when he said this.

He said:

1) Call no man Father
2) Call no man Rabbi
3) Call no man Master

BUT rather we should call each other brethren. 


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« Reply #57 on: July 13, 2011, 12:58:43 AM »

Re. 'master' in this verse: The word used in the NT is 'καθηγηταί', which is certainly not what you call a bishop when asking his blessing. In that context, 'master' is a translation of 'δέσποτα'.

Recheck your facts and the word for Bishop in Greek.
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« Reply #58 on: July 13, 2011, 12:58:43 AM »

I have noticed a lot of back and forth in this thread. God tells us not to call any man father, etc. Yet God also tells us to cut off our hands and pluck out our eyes, which if we all did as God said none of us would be on this thread making this discussion go on ad nauseum. It boils down to this, are you using your own interpretation of the Bible or are you using the Church's? If your own, I would advise to rexonsider your interpretation and get back to us when you no longer have any eyes or hands, after all God commands us to! Before you come in here and tell us that we have speck of dust in our eye, perhaps you should examine the skyscraper sticking out of your own (I imagine that insurance won't cover the whole cost for that). 

This is the problem though.  The bible was not written IN

1) My interpretation
OR
2) The church's interpretation

it was written in the Original INTENT of the authors of the books.

In the verse of the plucking out the hands and eyes, it was clearly written as symbolic.  In the verse when speaking of not calling a man father, rabbi, and master, but rather call each other brethren, it was absolutely CLEAR and not symbolic.

The question you have to ask yourself is "What did Yeshua mean then"?   "Who wouldn't I call father, master, and Rabbi if not speaking of spiritual leaders or teachers within a church?" 

I just wonder who you think he was talking about not to call those things?   Thanks.
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« Reply #59 on: July 13, 2011, 12:58:44 AM »

Also, in some contexts, 'Master' can mean 'Teacher.'

Just throwing that out there.  Smiley

Rabbi means teacher too.

We are not supposed to call anybody these.   God told us so.
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« Reply #60 on: July 13, 2011, 12:59:43 AM »

Also, in some contexts, 'Master' can mean 'Teacher.'

Just throwing that out there.  Smiley

Rabbi means teacher too.

We are not supposed to call anybody these.   God told us so.
On what authority do we have it that Jesus is God?
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« Reply #61 on: July 13, 2011, 01:19:15 AM »

Yesh, only a fool thinks he is perfect in obeying God.

But, again you are dodging the real question: if you are so obedient, tell me if you have both your eyes and both your hands?

 Wink



OK, so we have one picture.  What it does not tell us is whether bishops only wash priests' feet, or even if this bishop only washed this priest's feet and no other.

In most cases, I have seen bishops wash a number of people's feet during the same rite, usually a priest is included because during 'normal business hours' the bishop runs the priest's life rather completely.  Thus, it is a reversal in a very personal way for both.

But, seriously, you weren't really thinking a single picture was going to impugne the entire Orthodox CHurch, did you?



Call no man Father, Rabbi, or Master.

Eastern Orthodox call their priests "Father" and Bishops "Master".

This is clear cut.

We should call the priests and Bishops "Brethren or Brothers or even "Bishop or Priest" is fine. 
This is because Christ told us "we are all brothers".

This is why your "metropolitan" should be bending over and washing your feet which was also commanded by God, as you should wash his.  But no, he's called master and people kiss his hand and hold him as more significant than themselves. 

Of course everybody wants to stick with "Father" to contort the disobedience to God with excuses, but nobody has talked about "Master".



That's clergy washing clergy's feet, not Bishops washing laymen's feet.  We are brethren.

So somebody made a point with a single photo.
I commented on that photo.

Tell me when is the last time EVERYBODY that your bishop washed your feet?  Well that would be obedience to God who said to do it.
When was the last time you called your bishop "Master"?  Well that would be disobedience to God.
When was the last time your priest washed your feet?  Again, Obedience to God.
When is the last time you called your priest "Father"?  Disobedience to God.

When was the last time you had to make excuses and need explanations for disobeying God?



This is a contextual argument that strays far from the point. 
Yeshua was not speaking in symbols or parables when he said this.

He said:

1) Call no man Father
2) Call no man Rabbi
3) Call no man Master

BUT rather we should call each other brethren. 


No, you are quoting amiss.  He did not say what you have said in any case. 
He said:
Do not be called...Rabbi or Master (the word is not despota, as Orthodox Bishops are called)
Call not father (the Greek does not say "man")

Just admit you are wrong on all cases.  You have no credibility otherwise.   
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« Reply #62 on: July 13, 2011, 02:40:31 AM »

I have noticed a lot of back and forth in this thread. God tells us not to call any man father, etc. Yet God also tells us to cut off our hands and pluck out our eyes, which if we all did as God said none of us would be on this thread making this discussion go on ad nauseum. It boils down to this, are you using your own interpretation of the Bible or are you using the Church's? If your own, I would advise to rexonsider your interpretation and get back to us when you no longer have any eyes or hands, after all God commands us to! Before you come in here and tell us that we have speck of dust in our eye, perhaps you should examine the skyscraper sticking out of your own (I imagine that insurance won't cover the whole cost for that). 

This is the problem though.  The bible was not written IN

1) My interpretation
OR
2) The church's interpretation

it was written in the Original INTENT of the authors of the books.

In the verse of the plucking out the hands and eyes, it was clearly written as symbolic.  In the verse when speaking of not calling a man father, rabbi, and master, but rather call each other brethren, it was absolutely CLEAR and not symbolic.

The question you have to ask yourself is "What did Yeshua mean then"?   "Who wouldn't I call father, master, and Rabbi if not speaking of spiritual leaders or teachers within a church?" 

I just wonder who you think he was talking about not to call those things?   Thanks.

You have just proved that you are using your own interpretation to judge the meaning of Christ's words.  You see, while to you it is clear that Christ didn't really mean you should maim yourself to prevent sins, not everyone over time has thought so.  For instance, there is a canon of the Church which cast out all priests and bishops who made themselves eunuchs, in a literal sense, as these people believed Christ had told them to, in the Gospel.  Consequently, the fact that you are deciding what is obviously literal and what is obviously symbolic, when people have not always agreed it was so obvious, proves you are using your own interpretation.  There is never an obvious interpretation of a text written 2,000 years ago.  There is only an interpretation that seems likely to the individual, and of course the Patristic consensus that has always existed, and is the interpretation of the Church.
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« Reply #63 on: July 13, 2011, 04:50:28 AM »

Re. 'master' in this verse: The word used in the NT is 'καθηγηταί', which is certainly not what you call a bishop when asking his blessing. In that context, 'master' is a translation of 'δέσποτα'.

Recheck your facts and the word for Bishop in Greek.

I would recommend that you do the same. We call our bishops 'despota' when asking for a blessing. You don't even need to know a word of Greek to be able to open a Greek NT and see that this word is found nowhere in the verse you quoted. The fact that the same English word can be used to translate both is neither here nor there. The Bible was not written in English.

10.  What's the first thing you do when you see a bishop?  Bow, touch the floor and say what?  "Master bless".   Guess what, you did it again!  You called a man MASTER.  Jesus told you not to call anybody master.  Yet it is specifically done.  Is there an explanation?  I'm sure. But does the explanation meet worthy to disobey God?
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« Reply #64 on: July 13, 2011, 06:25:18 AM »

This is what happens when you read for one-liners and not for context.

 Roll Eyes

He'd better call all the school districts and tell them to stop addressing their workers as 'teachers.' I don't know what else he'll call them, but he's honor-bound to do it, or else look silly.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #65 on: July 13, 2011, 06:57:54 AM »

This is what happens when you read for one-liners and not for context.

 Roll Eyes

He'd better call all the school districts and tell them to stop addressing their workers as 'teachers.' I don't know what else he'll call them, but he's honor-bound to do it, or else look silly.  Roll Eyes

He could call them Sir or Ma'am, I suppose. Oh, wait ....  Roll Eyes laugh
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« Reply #66 on: July 13, 2011, 03:34:48 PM »

Yesh, only a fool thinks he is perfect in obeying God.

But, again you are dodging the real question: if you are so obedient, tell me if you have both your eyes and both your hands?

 Wink



OK, so we have one picture.  What it does not tell us is whether bishops only wash priests' feet, or even if this bishop only washed this priest's feet and no other.

In most cases, I have seen bishops wash a number of people's feet during the same rite, usually a priest is included because during 'normal business hours' the bishop runs the priest's life rather completely.  Thus, it is a reversal in a very personal way for both.

But, seriously, you weren't really thinking a single picture was going to impugne the entire Orthodox CHurch, did you?



Call no man Father, Rabbi, or Master.

Eastern Orthodox call their priests "Father" and Bishops "Master".

This is clear cut.

We should call the priests and Bishops "Brethren or Brothers or even "Bishop or Priest" is fine. 
This is because Christ told us "we are all brothers".

This is why your "metropolitan" should be bending over and washing your feet which was also commanded by God, as you should wash his.  But no, he's called master and people kiss his hand and hold him as more significant than themselves. 

Of course everybody wants to stick with "Father" to contort the disobedience to God with excuses, but nobody has talked about "Master".



That's clergy washing clergy's feet, not Bishops washing laymen's feet.  We are brethren.

So somebody made a point with a single photo.
I commented on that photo.

Tell me when is the last time EVERYBODY that your bishop washed your feet?  Well that would be obedience to God who said to do it.
When was the last time you called your bishop "Master"?  Well that would be disobedience to God.
When was the last time your priest washed your feet?  Again, Obedience to God.
When is the last time you called your priest "Father"?  Disobedience to God.

When was the last time you had to make excuses and need explanations for disobeying God?



This is a contextual argument that strays far from the point. 
Yeshua was not speaking in symbols or parables when he said this.

He said:

1) Call no man Father
2) Call no man Rabbi
3) Call no man Master

BUT rather we should call each other brethren. 


No, you are quoting amiss.  He did not say what you have said in any case. 
He said:
Do not be called...Rabbi or Master (the word is not despota, as Orthodox Bishops are called)
Call not father (the Greek does not say "man")

Just admit you are wrong on all cases.  You have no credibility otherwise.   


So you don't bow, touch the floor and say "Master Bless" ?
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« Reply #67 on: July 13, 2011, 03:34:48 PM »

Even his beloved Mennonites would start raising eyebrows at this point...

Beloved Mennonites? 

You mean the ones that don't bow, cross themselves, venerate, bow again, cross themselves, enchant objects through blessing, iconostasis, antimentions, holy this, holy that, sacred this, sacred that, holy saints, holy cloths, holy vestments, holy water, holy altars..... hmm.

No not those whose bishops permitted crusades...
Not those who claim the one true church and engage in ecumenism..

Okie.. Whatever.

Take 2 wafers, 1 schism (no wait tons of schisms) and call me lame.
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« Reply #68 on: July 13, 2011, 03:35:18 PM »

Also, in some contexts, 'Master' can mean 'Teacher.'

Just throwing that out there.  Smiley

Rabbi means teacher too.

We are not supposed to call anybody these.   God told us so.
On what authority do we have it that Jesus is God?

Yeshua said that he was God.

"Before Abraham was born I AM"
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« Reply #69 on: July 13, 2011, 03:35:18 PM »

Acts 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers

Acts 3:25 the covenant which God made with our fathers

Acts 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus

Acts 7:2 The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham

Acts 7:4 from thence, when his father was dead

Acts 7:11 our fathers found no sustenance

Acts 7:12  he sent out our fathers first

Acts 7:14 Then sent Joseph, and called his father Jacob to him

Acts 7:15 he, and our fathers

Acts 7:16 Emmor the father of Sychem

Acts 7:19 evil entreated our fathers

Acts 7:20 nourished up in his father's house

Acts 7:32 I am the God of thy fathers

Acts 7:38 with our fathers

Acts 7:39 To whom our fathers would not obey

Acts 7:44 Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness

Acts 7:45 Which also our fathers

Acts 7:51 as your fathers did, so do ye

Acts 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted?

Acts 13:17 The God of this people of Israel chose our fathers

Acts 13:32 how that the promise which was made unto the fathers

Acts 13:36 and was laid unto his fathers

Acts 15:10 neither our fathers nor we were able to bear

Acts 16:1 but his father was a Greek

Acts 16:3 for they knew all that his father was a Greek

Acts 22:1 Men, brethren, and fathers, hear ye my defence which I make now unto you.

Acts 22:3 the law of the fathers

Acts 22:14 The God of our fathers hath chosen thee

Acts 24:14 so worship I the God of my fathers

Acts 26:6 the promise made of God, unto our fathers

Acts 28:8 the father of Publius lay sick

Acts 28:17 customs of our fathers

Acts 28:25 Esaias the prophet unto our fathers

Romans 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father

Romans 4:11 the father of all them that believe

Romans 4:12 our father Abraham

Romans 4:16 Abraham; who is the father of us all

Romans 4:17 I have made thee a father of many nations

Romans 4:18 that he might become the father of many nations

Romans 9:5 Whose are the fathers

Romans 9:10 our father Isaac

Romans 11:28 for the father's sakes

Romans 15:8 to confirm the promises made unto the fathers

1 Corinthians 5:1 that one should have his father's wife

1 Corinthians 10:1 all our fathers were under the cloud

Galatians 1:14 traditions of my fathers

Ephesians 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother

Ephesians 6:2 Honour thy father and mother

Ephesians 6:4 And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath

Philippians 2:22 as a son with the father

1 Timothy 5:1 intreat him as a father

Hebrews 1:1 unto the fathers by the prophets

Hebrews 3:9 When your fathers tempted me

Hebrews 7:3 Without father, without mother

Hebrews 7:10 For he was yet in the loins of his father

Hebrews 8:9 the covenant that I made with their fathers

Hebrews 12:7 what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

Hebrews 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works

1 Peter 1:18 received by tradition from your fathers

2 Peter 3:4 for since the fathers fell asleep

1 John 2:13 I write unto you, fathers

1 John 2:14 I have written unto you, fathers

Oops.

So are you showing examples of the disobedience to Christ?

Don't forget one of the main authors of these books was also a murderer of Christians for a while.  Let's quote that.
Also his disciple Luke, wrote the book of Luke.

This is besides the point though.

Just because our brethren did it doesn't mean we should.
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« Reply #70 on: July 13, 2011, 07:00:25 PM »

Where did you get the idea that burning incense equals enchantment?

And yes, holy this, holy that... everything God made is holy. We are made in his eikon (image) and likeness. That is why we thank God for His creation.
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« Reply #71 on: July 13, 2011, 07:03:29 PM »

Quote from: yeshuaisiam

So are you showing examples of the disobedience to Christ?

Don't forget one of the main authors of these books was also a murderer of Christians for a while.  Let's quote that.
Also his disciple Luke, wrote the book of Luke.

This is besides the point though.

Just because our brethren did it doesn't mean we should.

If the passages above constitute 'disobedience,' and you extrapolate that to the books which contain the verses, you just chucked out a good portion of the New Testament.

Is this some sort of game? Because if it's not, it would lack even that risible point.
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« Reply #72 on: July 13, 2011, 07:54:04 PM »

Yeshuaism, is there any particular reason you've ignored my posts?
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« Reply #73 on: July 13, 2011, 08:33:24 PM »

Quote
No not those whose bishops permitted crusades...

Yeshuaisiam, your ignorance of history is telling, if not shameful. The Crusades were not the progeny of the Orthodox.
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« Reply #74 on: July 13, 2011, 09:12:10 PM »

Even his beloved Mennonites would start raising eyebrows at this point...

Beloved Mennonites? 

You mean the ones that don't bow, cross themselves, venerate, bow again, cross themselves, enchant objects through blessing, iconostasis, antimentions, holy this, holy that, sacred this, sacred that, holy saints, holy cloths, holy vestments, holy water, holy altars..... hmm.

No not those whose bishops permitted crusades...
Not those who claim the one true church and engage in ecumenism..

Okie.. Whatever.

Take 2 wafers, 1 schism (no wait tons of schisms) and call me lame.

Matter can be sanctified just as much as souls can.
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« Reply #75 on: July 13, 2011, 10:08:34 PM »

So are you showing examples of the disobedience to Christ?

I'm showing examples of your wrongness. Your understanding of Christ's words was not known to the Apostles, and therefore it is wrong.

And 16 of those references to human "fathers" were from St. Stephen's speech before the assembly of the Jews. The Acts say he was "filled with the Holy Spirit" when he said those things, so I doubt he was disobeying Christ at that time. But if you want to walk the line of committing the unforgivable sin, go right ahead.

Don't forget one of the main authors of these books was also a murderer of Christians for a while.  Let's quote that.

And he repented of that and changed his ways. I don't see the apostles repenting for calling people "father". (Probably because it's not a sin.)

Pretty gutsy of you to be judging the Apostles the way you are. I'm pretty sure the Apostles will be sitting in judgment of us, and not vice-versa.

Just because our brethren did it doesn't mean we should.

Yes it does.

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« Reply #76 on: July 13, 2011, 10:54:08 PM »

Yeshuaism, is there any particular reason you've ignored my posts?

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« Reply #77 on: July 13, 2011, 11:55:10 PM »

Also, in some contexts, 'Master' can mean 'Teacher.'

Just throwing that out there.  Smiley

Rabbi means teacher too.

We are not supposed to call anybody these.   God told us so.
On what authority do we have it that Jesus is God?

Yeshua said that he was God.

"Before Abraham was born I AM"
But who was it that recorded that statement? HINT: He was also an apostle.
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« Reply #78 on: July 14, 2011, 12:26:31 PM »

Quote
No not those whose bishops permitted crusades...

Yeshuaisiam, your ignorance of history is telling, if not shameful. The Crusades were not the progeny of the Orthodox.

BZZZT.  Wrong.

You need to read history.  There were EASTERN ORTHODOX Bishops involved as well.
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« Reply #79 on: July 14, 2011, 12:26:31 PM »

So are you showing examples of the disobedience to Christ?

I'm showing examples of your wrongness. Your understanding of Christ's words was not known to the Apostles, and therefore it is wrong.

And 16 of those references to human "fathers" were from St. Stephen's speech before the assembly of the Jews. The Acts say he was "filled with the Holy Spirit" when he said those things, so I doubt he was disobeying Christ at that time. But if you want to walk the line of committing the unforgivable sin, go right ahead.

Don't forget one of the main authors of these books was also a murderer of Christians for a while.  Let's quote that.

And he repented of that and changed his ways. I don't see the apostles repenting for calling people "father". (Probably because it's not a sin.)

Pretty gutsy of you to be judging the Apostles the way you are. I'm pretty sure the Apostles will be sitting in judgment of us, and not vice-versa.

Just because our brethren did it doesn't mean we should.

Yes it does.

Be ye imitators of me, even as I also am of Christ.
–St Paul, 1 Corinthians 11:1

Just because all your friends jump off a bridge does not mean that you have to as well.

Just because some of the apostles said "father" does not make it right.  Remember there were also apostles that denied Christ, and Paul murdered Christians in cold blood.

Christ said

"Do NOT call any man father" - This means don't call any man father.  Period.
"Do NOT call any man rabbi" - This means don't call any man rabbi.  Period.
"Do NOT call any man master" - This means don't call any man Master.  Period.

This was recorded by Matthew (Perhaps not heard by the others? I don't know).  All I know is God said it.

All I know is the Eastern Orthodox make constant excuses as to why to do things God directly said not to do.

Don't you think there would be a better thing to call priests or bishops than "Father and Master".  Something that wouldn't need so many excuses for disobedience?
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« Reply #80 on: July 14, 2011, 12:41:11 PM »

Jesus also said to hate your mother and father.

So is He asking us to hate God?

Enjoy more of the attention.
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« Reply #81 on: July 14, 2011, 01:06:28 PM »


Ah, now we are at the crux of the matter.

You are willing to dismiss 'some of the apostles,' but not the testimony of St. Matthew... an Apostle.

What if St. Matthew had recorded it wrong and the others were right?  How many decades transpired between this saying and its writing?

If you are going to dismiss some of the Apostles, you have to dismiss all of them because Christianity has never denigrated some Apostles in favor of others.  You are inventing a new measure of the Faith, one that is wrong and leads to heresy.

Christianity embraces all of the Apostles, not just one or the other.

Even when they sinned, the Scriptures and Tradition are very clear that they repented.   The Scriptures would not let stand an error.  The essence of your argument is that the Scriptures allow errors to stand uncorrected.  This is heresy.


<snip>
Just because some of the apostles said "father" does not make it right.  Remember there were also apostles that denied Christ, and Paul murdered Christians in cold blood.

Christ said

"Do NOT call any man father" - This means don't call any man father.  Period.
"Do NOT call any man rabbi" - This means don't call any man rabbi.  Period.
"Do NOT call any man master" - This means don't call any man Master.  Period.
<snip>
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« Reply #82 on: July 14, 2011, 01:13:55 PM »

Also, in some contexts, 'Master' can mean 'Teacher.'

Just throwing that out there.  Smiley

Rabbi means teacher too.

We are not supposed to call anybody these.   God told us so.
On what authority do we have it that Jesus is God?

Yeshua said that he was God.

"Before Abraham was born I AM"
But who was it that recorded that statement? HINT: He was also an apostle.

Yes, John was an Apostle.  The beloved.

Who was it that said "Call no man rabbi, father, or master"?  HINT: He was part of the Trinity.
Who calls people "Father and Master"?  HINT: It's a church that claims its the one true church.

Who washed your feet last in your church as God commanded?
Who's hand do you venerate as a non-equal brethren?
When is the last time you bishop washed your feet as a brother?
When was the last time you kissed up to your bishop as if he was something overwhelmingly special?

Which apostle venerated images of the likeness of things on heaven and earth?
Which church plays like your veneration is like "beaming up" your veneration to the person "represented"?
What did God tell you not to make in the 1st commandment?
What is an iconostasis and what apostle did that?
What "father" do you confess your sins to?  Or do you to it to "one another" as commanded?
When you pray before meals do you thank God in your prayer as taught by God?
Which table of oblation did Christ use again in the last supper?
When did Christ or any apostle venerate Mary?

You people act as though I'm nuts.  

I'm not the one kissing paint and wood that was "blessed" by a "father" bowing and crossing myself thinking it makes any difference.   I'm just here telling you the iconostasis did NOT exist, nor the structure of the church as you know it to the original apostles.

I'm here saying the orignal apostles are our brethren, and that's how God set it up.

It is my firm belief that Eastern Orthodoxy is merely a dogma laced morph of the beautiful early church that once existed.   Just because you call these guys saints (such as James) and label him a patriarch, doesn't mean that's really what he was.  He was our brother, our brethren.

All this fluff is just a bunch of OCD superstition of the once beautiful church that existed.  

I mean.. ya know... Everybody has a halo.  Uh huh....

Early Christianity was a lot more Jewish than most of you can imagine.  There was no

1) Iconostasis.
2) Veneration of hands.
3) Worries of apostolic succession.
4) 80,000 pieces of dogma and procedure.
5) Communion was more of a passover meal, not some huge drawn out blessing in a consecrated altar behind an iconostasis with byzantine king garb.


If I'm wrong show me of the iconostasis in EARLY Christianity. 100-200 A.D.
If I'm wrong show me where everybody venerated icons in EARLY Christianity.
If I'm wrong show me all of the extreme dogma in EARLY Christianity.
If I'm wrong show me where confession was to a church "father" in EARLY Christianity.

So basically pipe out all the excuses and explanations.

The explanations to my questions are "The church evolved, and we kiss wood & paint because of...."
Too many excuses.  Too many explanations.   Even the "Patriarchs" are in ecumenism, which slaps Eastern Orthodox tradition in the face.  But people make excuses and have explanations for that.

So explain to me again.

When GOD - not apostles - but GOD - yes  YHWH, Yeshua, and the Holy Spirit says:
1) Call no man FATHER
2) Call no man Rabbi
3) Call no man MASTER

Why do the Eastern Orthodox Christians say:  But because.... and this... and that.....  this is why.... and "I'm messing with Texas"... and "You are ignorant".......  

The bottom line is you are disobeying Yeshua, your God.   He said NOT TO do it.   No matter what theologian, priest, or church elder has made excuses for to disobey him.

I'm having trouble understanding the logic of many here.   No means no.  Not means not.  Do not means "Do not".

GOD the top of all authority said:  "DO NOT"

You say: "We can because so and so, and this and that".

So are you going to continue to DO what God said "DO NOT" to?

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« Reply #83 on: July 14, 2011, 01:31:45 PM »

<snip>
You people act as though I'm nuts.  
<snip>

Well, yes, I'm sure there are plenty of people here who think you are nuts because you are engaging the topic in an inconsistent manner.

Your approach to the Scriptures is inconsistent, since you are willing to say some parts of the Scripture are incorrect or not to be taken at face value while others are immoveably and literally true.

Because you move your standards back and forth, the common perception will be that you are either ignorant, dishonest or crazy.  Somehow, I think that this is your impression of us as well, in large part because we are not lining up with your standards.  The difficulty is that we cannot keep up with your inconsistent approach.

We generally think of such inconsistencies as heresy.
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« Reply #84 on: July 14, 2011, 01:43:32 PM »

Also, in some contexts, 'Master' can mean 'Teacher.'

Just throwing that out there.  Smiley

Rabbi means teacher too.

We are not supposed to call anybody these.   God told us so.
On what authority do we have it that Jesus is God?

Yeshua said that he was God.

"Before Abraham was born I AM"
But who was it that recorded that statement? HINT: He was also an apostle.

Yes, John was an Apostle.  The beloved.

Who was it that said "Call no man rabbi, father, or master"?  HINT: He was part of the Trinity.
You wouldn't know Jesus as God if not for the Church.
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« Reply #85 on: July 14, 2011, 02:14:09 PM »

Just because some of the apostles said "father" does not make it right.

St. Stephen, filled with the Holy Spirit such that his face was shining with glory, called Abraham and others his "fathers". Your blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is your business.

What about these examples:

Matthew 10:21 - And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.

Matthew 10:35 - For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

Matthew 10:37 - He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

Matthew 15:4 - For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.

Matthew 19:5 - And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

Matthew 19:19 - Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Matthew 19:29 - And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

Matthew 21:31 - Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

Matthew 23:32 - Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

Mark 7:10 - For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:

Mark 7:12 - And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;

Mark 10:7 - For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;

Mark 10:19 - Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.

Mark 10:29 - And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,

Mark 13:12 - Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.

Luke 6:23 - Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.

Luke 6:26 - Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.

Luke 11:11 - If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?

Luke 11:47-48 - Woe unto you! for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and your fathers killed them. Truly ye bear witness that ye allow the deeds of your fathers: for they indeed killed them, and ye build their sepulchres.

Luke 14:26 - If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Luke 15:12 - And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living.

Luke 15:17-18 - And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger! I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,

Luke 15:20-22 - And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him. And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son. But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:

Luke 15:27-29 - And he said unto him, Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound. And he was angry, and would not go in: therefore came his father out, and intreated him. And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:

Luke 16:24 - And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Luke 16:27 - Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

Luke 16:30 - And he said, Nay, Father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

Luke 18:20 - Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.

John 6:49 - Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

John 6:58 - This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

John 7:22 - Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers; and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man.

John 8:56 - Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

The Son of God, referring to human beings as "fathers." Tisk tisk. I suppose Jesus was a sinner too, along with the Holy Spirit?
« Last Edit: July 14, 2011, 02:17:48 PM by bogdan » Logged
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« Reply #86 on: July 14, 2011, 03:49:39 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Also, in some contexts, 'Master' can mean 'Teacher.'

Just throwing that out there.  Smiley

Rabbi means teacher too.

We are not supposed to call anybody these.   God told us so.
On what authority do we have it that Jesus is God?

Yeshua said that he was God.

"Before Abraham was born I AM"
But who was it that recorded that statement? HINT: He was also an apostle.

Yes, John was an Apostle.  The beloved.

Who was it that said "Call no man rabbi, father, or master"?  HINT: He was part of the Trinity.
Who calls people "Father and Master"?  HINT: It's a church that claims its the one true church.

Who washed your feet last in your church as God commanded?
Who's hand do you venerate as a non-equal brethren?
When is the last time you bishop washed your feet as a brother?
When was the last time you kissed up to your bishop as if he was something overwhelmingly special?

Which apostle venerated images of the likeness of things on heaven and earth?
Which church plays like your veneration is like "beaming up" your veneration to the person "represented"?
What did God tell you not to make in the 1st commandment?
What is an iconostasis and what apostle did that?
What "father" do you confess your sins to?  Or do you to it to "one another" as commanded?
When you pray before meals do you thank God in your prayer as taught by God?
Which table of oblation did Christ use again in the last supper?
When did Christ or any apostle venerate Mary?

You people act as though I'm nuts.  

I'm not the one kissing paint and wood that was "blessed" by a "father" bowing and crossing myself thinking it makes any difference.   I'm just here telling you the iconostasis did NOT exist, nor the structure of the church as you know it to the original apostles.

I'm here saying the orignal apostles are our brethren, and that's how God set it up.

It is my firm belief that Eastern Orthodoxy is merely a dogma laced morph of the beautiful early church that once existed.   Just because you call these guys saints (such as James) and label him a patriarch, doesn't mean that's really what he was.  He was our brother, our brethren.

All this fluff is just a bunch of OCD superstition of the once beautiful church that existed.  

I mean.. ya know... Everybody has a halo.  Uh huh....

Early Christianity was a lot more Jewish than most of you can imagine.  There was no

1) Iconostasis.
2) Veneration of hands.
3) Worries of apostolic succession.
4) 80,000 pieces of dogma and procedure.
5) Communion was more of a passover meal, not some huge drawn out blessing in a consecrated altar behind an iconostasis with byzantine king garb.


If I'm wrong show me of the iconostasis in EARLY Christianity. 100-200 A.D.
If I'm wrong show me where everybody venerated icons in EARLY Christianity.
If I'm wrong show me all of the extreme dogma in EARLY Christianity.
If I'm wrong show me where confession was to a church "father" in EARLY Christianity.

So basically pipe out all the excuses and explanations.

The explanations to my questions are "The church evolved, and we kiss wood & paint because of...."
Too many excuses.  Too many explanations.   Even the "Patriarchs" are in ecumenism, which slaps Eastern Orthodox tradition in the face.  But people make excuses and have explanations for that.

So explain to me again.

When GOD - not apostles - but GOD - yes  YHWH, Yeshua, and the Holy Spirit says:
1) Call no man FATHER
2) Call no man Rabbi
3) Call no man MASTER

Why do the Eastern Orthodox Christians say:  But because.... and this... and that.....  this is why.... and "I'm messing with Texas"... and "You are ignorant".......  

The bottom line is you are disobeying Yeshua, your God.   He said NOT TO do it.   No matter what theologian, priest, or church elder has made excuses for to disobey him.

I'm having trouble understanding the logic of many here.   No means no.  Not means not.  Do not means "Do not".

GOD the top of all authority said:  "DO NOT"

You say: "We can because so and so, and this and that".

So are you going to continue to DO what God said "DO NOT" to?



Brother, do you honestly expect to come into an Orthodox forum and continually and rudely scathe Orthodoxy and the Holy Tradition and expect any of us to take you any more seriously then we already have? Lord have His Mercy are you that dense?  Calling us crazy for our adherence to the Holy Tradition is not very polite fellowship, I expect better from you as I usually enjoy your input to these discussions.  However, if you insist on being so vitriolic, well then that speaks for itself unfortunately Sad

I will only say this and reiterate it yet again:

Where does God say such things literally and personally? The Scriptures are a book, paper, that is all.  Sorry, they are not in themselves perfect nor Divine.  Rather, God Himself, in His Godhead, is perfect and true, and God Himself is Omnipotent well and beyond the limits of any kind of Scriptures or interpretations.  In Orthodox, we don't rely on Sola Scripture or to legalistically on the Tradition, instead we turn to God in our hearts directly.  Its not the Bible that speaks for God, God Himself is fully able to speak for Himself in the here and now.  So please, stop bible thumping on us, we are just ontologically on a different playing field in this regard to "listening to God"

We Commune directly with "Yehshua" and He speaks to us in our Church, not just the Scriptures, please stop insulting us by pretending He only speaks to you and your personalized interpretations of the Scriptures Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #87 on: July 14, 2011, 05:06:37 PM »

Also, in some contexts, 'Master' can mean 'Teacher.'

Just throwing that out there.  Smiley

Rabbi means teacher too.

We are not supposed to call anybody these.   God told us so.
On what authority do we have it that Jesus is God?

Yeshua said that he was God.

"Before Abraham was born I AM"
But who was it that recorded that statement? HINT: He was also an apostle.

Yes, John was an Apostle.  The beloved.

Who was it that said "Call no man rabbi, father, or master"?  HINT: He was part of the Trinity.
You wouldn't know Jesus as God if not for the Church.

True.  But the church wasn't Eastern Orthodoxy in practice at all in the beginning.
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« Reply #88 on: July 14, 2011, 05:06:38 PM »

<snip>
You people act as though I'm nuts.  
<snip>

Well, yes, I'm sure there are plenty of people here who think you are nuts because you are engaging the topic in an inconsistent manner.

Your approach to the Scriptures is inconsistent, since you are willing to say some parts of the Scripture are incorrect or not to be taken at face value while others are immoveably and literally true.

Because you move your standards back and forth, the common perception will be that you are either ignorant, dishonest or crazy.  Somehow, I think that this is your impression of us as well, in large part because we are not lining up with your standards.  The difficulty is that we cannot keep up with your inconsistent approach.

We generally think of such inconsistencies as heresy.


I suppose you see how brainwashing the Eastern Orthodox faith is.  I've lived the life as an Eastern Orthodox Christian for many years.  I've even lived at St. Vladimir's seminary in New York. I've been surrounded by Eastern Orthodoxy practically my entire life. 

So what you are witnessing is my struggle.  I lean towards it and away from it in many aspects.

I lean towards it because of the threads that hang on to the original church.
I lean away from it because of all the un-needed fluff that is completely inconsistent with early Christianity.
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« Reply #89 on: July 14, 2011, 05:09:02 PM »

Yeshuaism, I am hereby considering you a troll until you address at least one of the arguments in my posts.  Consequently, until this happens,  I will ignore every post of yours anywhere on the board.  This means any question you ask or comments on any post of mine in any thread.  I just wanted to give you fair warning so you don't think I am unable to answer your claims or questions or concerns with any of my posts, in the future.
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