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Author Topic: Do the Orthodox disobey God in their practice?  (Read 11112 times) Average Rating: 0
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yeshuaisiam
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« on: July 10, 2011, 05:52:55 PM »

8But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
9And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
10Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

Let me break it down.
8.  A Rabbi is a spiritual leader & teacher of the church in Judaism.  (We are all brethren, not any more special than the other)
9.  Call NO MAN your FATHER upon the Earth!  Our Father is in HEAVEN.
10. Do not call anybody MASTER.  For only God is our master.

Okay, now for the Orthodox.

8 & 9.  What is a priest?  A spiritual leader and teacher in the church.  What do you call him?  FATHER.  God told you NOT to call any MAN father.  A priest is a MAN.  Are you going to give an explanation of why you are disobeying God and continue to say "Father".   God has told you not to call any  man father.  Not a Rabbi (teacher or spiritual leader) not anybody.  A priest is our brethren not our father.   Do you feel that you are disobeying God when you call your priest "Father" when GOD specifically commanded you NOT to call ANY MAN FATHER?

10.  What's the first thing you do when you see a bishop?  Bow, touch the floor and say what?  "Master bless".   Guess what, you did it again!  You called a man MASTER.  Jesus told you not to call anybody master.  Yet it is specifically done.  Is there an explanation?  I'm sure. But does the explanation meet worthy to disobey God?

Please no personal attacks.  I'm quoting the scripture that is from God's own words.
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« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2011, 05:57:27 PM »

8But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
9And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
10Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

Let me break it down.
8.  A Rabbi is a spiritual leader & teacher of the church in Judaism.  (We are all brethren, not any more special than the other)
9.  Call NO MAN your FATHER upon the Earth!  Our Father is in HEAVEN.
10. Do not call anybody MASTER.  For only God is our master.

Okay, now for the Orthodox.

8 & 9.  What is a priest?  A spiritual leader and teacher in the church.  What do you call him?  FATHER.  God told you NOT to call any MAN father.  A priest is a MAN.  Are you going to give an explanation of why you are disobeying God and continue to say "Father".   God has told you not to call any  man father.  Not a Rabbi (teacher or spiritual leader) not anybody.  A priest is our brethren not our father.   Do you feel that you are disobeying God when you call your priest "Father" when GOD specifically commanded you NOT to call ANY MAN FATHER?
Then what do you call the man who worked in concert with your mother to bring you kicking and screaming into this world?

10.  What's the first thing you do when you see a bishop?  Bow, touch the floor and say what?  "Master bless".   Guess what, you did it again!  You called a man MASTER.  Jesus told you not to call anybody master.  Yet it is specifically done.  Is there an explanation?  I'm sure. But does the explanation meet worthy to disobey God?

Please no personal attacks.  I'm quoting the scripture that is from God's own words.
But do you understand the context of Christ's words? I'm not going to explain it to you, since it seems to me you're only itching for a fight.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2011, 06:02:35 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2011, 06:08:22 PM »



I write not these things to shame you, but to admonish you as my beloved children.  For though ye have ten thousand tutors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I begat you through the gospel.  I beseech you therefore, be ye imitators of me. 1 Corinthians 4:14-16

Orthodoxy: guilty of imitating St. Paul?



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« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2011, 06:28:55 PM »

Quote
I'm quoting the scripture that is from God's own words.

As you see them anyway.

Quote
since it seems to me you're only itching for a fight.

It couldn't be more apparent.


Yeshuaisiam. I've never had that much of a problem with you, but come on brother. If you have a question, ask a question. You set up these diligently worded "questions" and then attack the responders; its ridiculous. Who knows if the explanations are worthy for God, but it seems like you care much more about answers worthy to you.
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« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2011, 06:47:21 PM »

yeshuaisiam,

Simply do a search in the New Testament for the words you've listed and you'll get your answer.

Here, just a few examples of "father":

"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."
- John 8:56

"Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all"
- Romans 4:16

"Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?"
- James 2:21

You can read these too if you're so inclined:

'Call No Man Father?':

 http://www.antiochian.org/node/19193

'Why Orthodox Call their Pastor "Father"':

http://www.synaxis.org/callnoman.htm

Hope this helps you.

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« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2011, 07:18:53 PM »

Yeshuaisiam, if you read the entire chapter, it becomes quite apparent he is speaking about hypocrites.  Men who seek after fame and honor, who glory in the title of Father, or Master.  It is not speaking about legitimate spiritual fathers, people who do not enjoy being a priest simply because they like prestige and being called Father.

If you read the passage so literally, what do you call the person who stands in front of a room full of ten year olds and educates them on math?  Do you call them a "Mathematical Illuminator" or perhaps "Chief Dissemination Officer for Mathematical Knowledge"?  No.  You call them teacher.  That is because they teach.  To call them otherwise, or to deny them the title, would be hypocritical.  As well, it would be hypocritical if you came up with any word meaning the same thing for a teacher, master, father, etc.  If you said educator, or boss, or dad, those would all be sins as well, because you would be in violation of the spirit of the commandment, if you were right about how Christ's words are to be interpreted.  You would be forced to call the person whose semen helped to create you by his first name or, possibly, "Mr. Last Name."  You could not call him by any special title or reference, not dad or daddy, not father, not biological father, not any special name that you give him because he fathered you.  It would even be hypocritical to say that he fathered you, and yet deny him the title father.  Does Christ endorse hypocrisy, because it would seem to me he rails against it frequently.

If you must attack the Orthodox Church, please at least pick something like icons, or saints, not something so easily and quickly refuted by a simple reading of the context of the passage.
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« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2011, 07:37:24 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Aside from the fact already mentioned above several times over that even in the Scriptures priests, rabbis, patriarchs, elders, and apostles are referred directly as "father/fathers" let me point out this glaringly obvious but forgotten point by sola scripture-ists

Yeshuaisism mentioned "when God said" in regard to the Scriptures, I'd like him to elaborate on what he means by that? So is God directly and literally writing, transmitting and speaking the words of these Scriptures? And which Scriptures exactly? And what is the evidence of this?

Rather we teach the Scriptures are inspired by God, not that they are necessarily the literal and inerrant words of God.  We receive it from men, in a human form.  So we in the Church can not simply have a "read it for yourself" mentality because that is not how the Scriptures are meant to be approached.  Instead, we in Orthodox consult the opinions of experts like priests and biblical scholars so that we can see the interpretations aligned with the Holy Tradition and the Apostolic Church.  The Bible doesn't speak for itself in the literal way some folks seem to think, as even within the Scriptures Peter affirms that "no prophecy [or interpretation] is of itself, rather all prophecies are subject to the prophets [ie, the already existing traditions]."

So we must always read the Scriptures in line with the Tradition, and what has not only the Scriptures self-evidently but also through interpretation of the Apostolic Church taught, that we should revere our priests and elders and "fathers" and this is obvious in that we called them "Father" or "Our Father" or in the Ethiopian Orthodox Liq Pappasat (Biggest Papa Smiley )

Stay Blessed,
Habte Selassie
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« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2011, 08:13:26 PM »

Jesus said "Do not call any man rabbi, father, and Master".

A Rabbi is a spiritual teacher & leader.
A Priest is a spiritual teacher & leader.
Do not call any man father came from the mouth of God.
Perhaps to make my question easier let's concentrate on the word "Master".

Please let's work with "Master Bless".

I'm honestly not attacking anybody personally here... I have some reasons to doubt some of the practices of the Eastern Orthodox church.

The Eastern Orthodox call their priests "Father".  They call their Bishops "Master".   God said "Do not call ANY man Father or Master".

Is this not disobedience?
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« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2011, 08:13:26 PM »

Quote
I'm quoting the scripture that is from God's own words.

As you see them anyway.

Quote
since it seems to me you're only itching for a fight.

It couldn't be more apparent.


Yeshuaisiam. I've never had that much of a problem with you, but come on brother. If you have a question, ask a question. You set up these diligently worded "questions" and then attack the responders; its ridiculous. Who knows if the explanations are worthy for God, but it seems like you care much more about answers worthy to you.

Please don't have a problem with me either.

Believe me, it's much more than just trying to "troll" for answers or anything.  I've been involved in the Eastern Orthodox faith VERY heavily in my life, if not in practice at a church, I was in study.  I'm coming to find some of the teachings stray not only far, but insanely far from the scriptures,  early church fathers, and from the 1st century Christians.   I've watched "Bishops" betray the communion through ecumenism which lead to my studies that strayed me from "Eastern Orthodox".  I am a seeker of what is "Orthodox" or "The right way". 

I've come to find that one man's heresy is another man's salvation.  Also, that history was written by the victors.   Often the Victors cast out and banished those who spoke the truth.

If God tells you to not call a man Father or Master, and we say "but because Paul did this so can we", that's not a reason.  Paul was a sinner.  We have to read the actual words of God sometimes and we'll see how far things have gone.

This is why I am asking now that we discuss the word "master" to avoid the confusion of the word "Father".


Greet a Bishop "Master Bless".   God said do not call any man Master.
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« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2011, 08:23:07 PM »

Quote
I'm quoting the scripture that is from God's own words.

As you see them anyway.

Quote
since it seems to me you're only itching for a fight.

It couldn't be more apparent.


Yeshuaisiam. I've never had that much of a problem with you, but come on brother. If you have a question, ask a question. You set up these diligently worded "questions" and then attack the responders; its ridiculous. Who knows if the explanations are worthy for God, but it seems like you care much more about answers worthy to you.

Please don't have a problem with me either.

Believe me, it's much more than just trying to "troll" for answers or anything.  I've been involved in the Eastern Orthodox faith VERY heavily in my life, if not in practice at a church, I was in study.  I'm coming to find some of the teachings stray not only far, but insanely far from the scriptures,  early church fathers, and from the 1st century Christians.   I've watched "Bishops" betray the communion through ecumenism which lead to my studies that strayed me from "Eastern Orthodox".  I am a seeker of what is "Orthodox" or "The right way".  

I've come to find that one man's heresy is another man's salvation.  Also, that history was written by the victors.   Often the Victors cast out and banished those who spoke the truth.

If God tells you to not call a man Father or Master, and we say "but because Paul did this so can we", that's not a reason.  Paul was a sinner.  We have to read the actual words of God sometimes and we'll see how far things have gone.
St. Paul was an Apostle of Jesus Christ. Now, didn't Jesus say to His Apostles, of whom St. Paul was a member as one born late, "He who receives you receives Me"? Doesn't the converse of this then mean "He who rejects you rejects Me"? Be careful, then, how far you go in rejecting the teaching of the Apostle Paul because he was a sinner. After all, even the chief of the Apostles recognized Paul as an apostle like himself and Paul's teaching as true.

BTW, you do realize that the very Gospel from which you extracted your original quotes is fundamentally the teaching of the Apostle Matthew? Deny the teaching authority of the Apostles, and you deny the very foundation of what we believe to be the teachings of Christ Himself.
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« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2011, 08:39:21 PM »

Please, please listen to Fr Tom Hopko's podcast on the subject:

http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/call_no_man_father

Father gives a lengthy exposition of the scripture you've cited and covers all possible bases.

As you are well aware (I am not even going to canvass the issue in this post at any length), the scriptures are not self-interpreting, so please do not treat them as if they are on this particular occasion.
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« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2011, 08:48:47 PM »

yeshuaisiam,

Simply do a search in the New Testament for the words you've listed and you'll get your answer.

Here, just a few examples of "father":

"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."
- John 8:56

"Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all"
- Romans 4:16

"Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?"
- James 2:21

You can read these too if you're so inclined:

'Call No Man Father?':

 http://www.antiochian.org/node/19193

'Why Orthodox Call their Pastor "Father"':

http://www.synaxis.org/callnoman.htm

Hope this helps you.



Or you could just completely ignore everything I've written and carry on as if I wasn't even here. Maybe you do just want to argue.

I even quoted Jesus Himself above - but still you persist?

If Christ meant literally to call no man father as is your assumption... then why would He say the following?

"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."
- John 8:56

Abraham is a man. God called him our father.

You must reconcile these things somehow. How are you going to do it?

Did you read the links I provided you with? Did you do a word search in the Bible for 'father', 'rabbi', 'teacher', etc?

Am I just wasting effort here with you?
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« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2011, 09:27:30 PM »

I have some reasons to doubt some of the practices of the Eastern Orthodox church.

The Eastern Orthodox call their priests "Father".  They call their Bishops "Master".   God said "Do not call ANY man Father or Master".

Is this not disobedience?

You obviously haven't read the New Testament since Christ's own Apostles addressed people as "Father":
"I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning..." 1John 2:13.
Or do Texans consider themselves to be somehow closer to God than the Apostles?
Yes. I'm messing with Texas.
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« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2011, 10:03:08 PM »

I believe it was St. Jerome who answered essentially the following question regarding Matt. 23.9: "were the apostles sinning and the apostolic scriptures in error when referring to men as father"?   His reply was rather simple and to the point:
The fact that we have one Son of God by nature does not prevent others from being understood as sons of God by adoption. 
Similarly, because we have one who is Father by nature and one who is Teacher by nature does not prevent others by grace in this same adoption from being fathers and teachers.    God the Father is the original by nature, the sole "cause" and thus Father of all by nature, and all others by grace.  Likewise, the Son is the only Begotten Son (i.e. by nature), but in Him many sons by grace.   

Of course, the context of "where the apostles sinning" etc. is the fact that every writer of the New Testament refers to men as fathers.  In addition to St. Paul's quotes, for example, we have:

  1 John 2:13
I write to you, fathers, Because you have known Him who is from the beginning. I write to you, young men, Because you have overcome the wicked one. I write to you, little children, Because you have known the Father.

1 John 2:14
I have written to you, fathers, Because you have known Him who is from the beginning. I have written to you, young men, Because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, And you have overcome the wicked one.
1 Peter 1:18
knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers,
James 2:21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?

BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY, YOU MUST ASK YOURSELF...

Was the Holy Spirit sinning when He moved St. Zacharias to call men his fathers?

"Now his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying: '...to perform the mercy promised to our fathers And to remember His holy covenant...the oath which He swore to our father Abraham'" (Luke 1.67-73)

Of course not.  The Holy Spirit does not sin against the Son, nor the Son against the Spirit.     

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« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2011, 10:15:05 PM »

I said the same thing in two lines (with an added two lines to mess with Texas).
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« Reply #15 on: July 11, 2011, 10:58:41 AM »

Yes. I'm messing with Texas.

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« Reply #16 on: July 11, 2011, 12:01:52 PM »

Jesus also said not to call Him "good" or "God" and we do both of those also.
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And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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« Reply #17 on: July 11, 2011, 03:57:37 PM »

Jesus said "Do not call any man rabbi, father, and Master".

Yes my brother but you've missed my point entirely.  Did Jesus actually say these words? Where do you read them? Oh right, in a book, which was transcribed and transmitted across 2000 years of complicated history. How did all this transcribing and transmitting? Oh right, the very priests whose titles are "father" and so perhaps we should trust their judgment and interpretation rather then getting so fundamentally mixed up along our own individual ideas as if they somehow carried the same authority?

Protestant thinking needs to perpetually reiterate that the Bible was written passed down by the Church, and so the Church is the rightful authority to consul on matters of interpretation, and we should trust the Church's interpretation above any of our own individualized, "read it for yourself" approaches (and by the way, I've read the bible a chapter a day cover to cover three times in the past 10 concurrent years so I am clearly a fan of bible reading Wink )

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stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #18 on: July 11, 2011, 04:06:37 PM »

Call No Man Father:

http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/call_no_man_father

EDIT: A summation of much of the above with a nod the theomophism of Man rather the anthropomorphism of God.
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« Reply #19 on: July 11, 2011, 09:17:48 PM »

yeshuaisiam,

Simply do a search in the New Testament for the words you've listed and you'll get your answer.

Here, just a few examples of "father":

"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."
- John 8:56

"Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all"
- Romans 4:16

"Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?"
- James 2:21

You can read these too if you're so inclined:

'Call No Man Father?':

 http://www.antiochian.org/node/19193

'Why Orthodox Call their Pastor "Father"':

http://www.synaxis.org/callnoman.htm

Hope this helps you.



Or you could just completely ignore everything I've written and carry on as if I wasn't even here. Maybe you do just want to argue.

I even quoted Jesus Himself above - but still you persist?

If Christ meant literally to call no man father as is your assumption... then why would He say the following?

"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."
- John 8:56

Abraham is a man. God called him our father.

You must reconcile these things somehow. How are you going to do it?

Did you read the links I provided you with? Did you do a word search in the Bible for 'father', 'rabbi', 'teacher', etc?

Am I just wasting effort here with you?

This is incorrect.

Yes Abraham was a man.  Jesus was speaking to the Jews saying "YOUR Father".

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« Reply #20 on: July 11, 2011, 09:17:48 PM »

I have some reasons to doubt some of the practices of the Eastern Orthodox church.

The Eastern Orthodox call their priests "Father".  They call their Bishops "Master".   God said "Do not call ANY man Father or Master".

Is this not disobedience?

You obviously haven't read the New Testament since Christ's own Apostles addressed people as "Father":
"I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning..." 1John 2:13.
Or do Texans consider themselves to be somehow closer to God than the Apostles?
Yes. I'm messing with Texas.

Then you are saying that Christ's own apostles disobeyed God.

God said "Call no man father or master".
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« Reply #21 on: July 11, 2011, 09:17:49 PM »

Call no man Father, Rabbi, or Master.

Eastern Orthodox call their priests "Father" and Bishops "Master".

This is clear cut.

We should call the priests and Bishops "Brethren or Brothers or even "Bishop or Priest" is fine. 
This is because Christ told us "we are all brothers".

This is why your "metropolitan" should be bending over and washing your feet which was also commanded by God, as you should wash his.  But no, he's called master and people kiss his hand and hold him as more significant than themselves. 

Of course everybody wants to stick with "Father" to contort the disobedience to God with excuses, but nobody has talked about "Master".
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« Reply #22 on: July 12, 2011, 12:35:49 AM »

Call no man Father, Rabbi, or Master.

Eastern Orthodox call their priests "Father" and Bishops "Master".

This is clear cut.

We should call the priests and Bishops "Brethren or Brothers or even "Bishop or Priest" is fine.  
This is because Christ told us "we are all brothers".

This is why your "metropolitan" should be bending over and washing your feet which was also commanded by God, as you should wash his.  But no, he's called master and people kiss his hand and hold him as more significant than themselves.  

Of course everybody wants to stick with "Father" to contort the disobedience to God with excuses, but nobody has talked about "Master".
Yup. Just as I thought. You don't want a discussion. You want a fight.

Others here have given you the greater context for the Gospel passage you quote mined for your argument, and they have explained exactly how your reasoning is wrong, and yet you continue to press the same old point without even engaging the counter-arguments.
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« Reply #23 on: July 12, 2011, 12:42:53 AM »

Do you call anyone Mister?

Stop now.

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« Reply #24 on: July 12, 2011, 12:42:59 AM »

Call no man Father, Rabbi, or Master.

Eastern Orthodox call their priests "Father" and Bishops "Master".

This is clear cut.

We should call the priests and Bishops "Brethren or Brothers or even "Bishop or Priest" is fine. 
This is because Christ told us "we are all brothers".

This is why your "metropolitan" should be bending over and washing your feet which was also commanded by God, as you should wash his.  But no, he's called master and people kiss his hand and hold him as more significant than themselves. 

Of course everybody wants to stick with "Father" to contort the disobedience to God with excuses, but nobody has talked about "Master".

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« Reply #25 on: July 12, 2011, 12:44:36 AM »

Don't ever allow yourself to be graduated a Magister.
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« Reply #26 on: July 12, 2011, 12:46:28 AM »

Don't ever refer to a renown conductor as a Maestro. 
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« Reply #27 on: July 12, 2011, 12:47:33 AM »

Never refer to a great work of human effort as a masterpiece.
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« Reply #28 on: July 12, 2011, 12:48:53 AM »

Between master and father, I can probably do this off the top of my head for at least 50 more posts to let you know what words not to day.
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« Reply #29 on: July 12, 2011, 12:50:24 AM »

Shun thou the thigh-master and stop thine ears shouldst thou hear of "Masters of the Universe."
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« Reply #30 on: July 12, 2011, 12:57:15 AM »

yeshuaisiam,

How many eyes have you plucked out? Or limps have you lopped off?

Was it worth the primo parking spots?

Curious.
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« Reply #31 on: July 12, 2011, 02:17:03 AM »

Yes. I'm messing with Texas.

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Hilarious. Great way to start the day.

The funny thing is, this user is using a troll tactic to divert the argument that their faith is directly violating what God said directly not to do.  He is trying to get a rise out of me which didn't work.  I'm far past an eleven teen year old who's going to cry at immature and ridiculous antics.
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« Reply #32 on: July 12, 2011, 02:25:24 AM »

Yes. I'm messing with Texas.

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Hilarious. Great way to start the day.

The funny thing is, this user is using a troll tactic to divert the argument that their faith is directly violating what God said directly not to do.  He is trying to get a rise out of me which didn't work.  I'm far past an eleven teen year old who's going to cry at immature and ridiculous antics.

You want to talk about ridiculous trolling tactics:

Call no man Father, Rabbi, or Master.

Eastern Orthodox call their priests "Father" and Bishops "Master".

This is clear cut.

We should call the priests and Bishops "Brethren or Brothers or even "Bishop or Priest" is fine. 
This is because Christ told us "we are all brothers".

This is why your "metropolitan" should be bending over and washing your feet which was also commanded by God, as you should wash his.  But no, he's called master and people kiss his hand and hold him as more significant than themselves. 

Of course everybody wants to stick with "Father" to contort the disobedience to God with excuses, but nobody has talked about "Master".
Yup. Just as I thought. You don't want a discussion. You want a fight.

Others here have given you the greater context for the Gospel passage you quote mined for your argument, and they have explained exactly how your reasoning is wrong, and yet you continue to press the same old point without even engaging the counter-arguments.
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« Reply #33 on: July 12, 2011, 03:29:10 AM »



This is incorrect.

Yes Abraham was a man.  Jesus was speaking to the Jews saying "YOUR Father".



No, sorry.

Jesus was speaking to Israelites.

"And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."
- Galatians 3:29

Abraham is the father of Israel.  Israel is the Church.

Abraham is our father.

And Christ called Abraham "father". Did you miss that part? Because that was the important part you know.

Christ said "Call no man father."

AFTER that, He called Abraham our father.

Please reconcile these two statements.
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« Reply #34 on: July 12, 2011, 10:11:50 AM »

I have some reasons to doubt some of the practices of the Eastern Orthodox church.

The Eastern Orthodox call their priests "Father".  They call their Bishops "Master".   God said "Do not call ANY man Father or Master".

Is this not disobedience?

You obviously haven't read the New Testament since Christ's own Apostles addressed people as "Father":
"I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning..." 1John 2:13.
Or do Texans consider themselves to be somehow closer to God than the Apostles?
Yes. I'm messing with Texas.

Then you are saying that Christ's own apostles disobeyed God.

God said "Call no man father or master".
Is that the best you can do? I've had more interesting conversations with shrubs than this.
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« Reply #35 on: July 12, 2011, 10:48:23 AM »

I'm quoting the scripture that is from God's own words.

"And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven." -Matt. 23:9

"Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." -Matt. 19:18-19

Either Christ contradicted Himself, or you are misinterpreting the Gospel. Which do you think is more likely?
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« Reply #36 on: July 12, 2011, 11:23:54 AM »

It isn't that we are forbidden to use the word father for others. Rather we must not think anyone is (must not call them) our true benefactor besides God. Our priests and fathers by the blood do good and take care of us, but ALL good comes from God so really that care and love is from Him. Don't make it something more than that. I promise you won't be able to pull a "gotcha" over on God or the Church.
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« Reply #37 on: July 12, 2011, 11:33:12 AM »



OK, let's look at the big picture.  First exhibit, Matthew 5:27-30

"You have heard that it was said, `You shall not commit adultery.' But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.

Let's be reasonable: such things have not gone on in mainstream Christianity.  That's because we know our Lord was speaking in what is called 'hyperbole.'  Otherwise, we'd all be blind double-amputees.

Here is another example, taken from John 8:1-11:

But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. Early in the morning he came again to the temple; all the people came to him, and he sat down and taught them. The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery, and placing her in the midst they said to him, "Teacher, this woman has been caught in the act of adultery. Now in the law Moses commanded us to stone such. What do you say about her?" This they said to test him, that they might have some charge to bring against him. Jesus bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, "Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her."
And once more he bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. But when they heard it, they went away, one by one, beginning with the eldest, and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him.
Jesus looked up and said to her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?" She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "Neither do I condemn you; go, and do not sin again."


Was our Lord expecting to never commit another sin again?  No, He meant not to sin in that way or some other grave sin.

Here's another fun one from Matthew 5:28:

You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Wow, He said 'must be perfect!'  Anyone around here think he or she is perfect?  How about close to perfect?

In fact, Orthodoxy is guilty saying that man can be eternally perfected but never be perfect because only God is perfect and since His perfection is eternal and boundless, we are eternally perfected without attaining it.

If you really examine the passage, you see that our Lord is addressing the Pharisees and the rulers of the synagogues who do not serve the people [Matthew 23:1-12]:

Then said Jesus to the crowds and to his disciples, "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat; so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice. They bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with their
finger. They do all their deeds to be seen by men; for they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long, and they love the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues, and salutations in the market places, and being called rabbi by men. But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brethren.  And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. Neither be called masters, for you have one master, the Christ.  He who is greatest among you shall be your servant; whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted."


If you read the entire passage, Jesus begins with addressing the problem of loving the title 'rabbi.'  He warns people to be humble and to serve, not seeking after titles and appearances.  We must recognize that the Holy Spirit teaches the hearts of the people and we are mere vessels, and those who preside do so because they sacrifice the most for the sake of the Church and her people.

We are not called to read without understanding, and a literalist has no understanding because the Scriptures were not written that way.


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« Reply #38 on: July 12, 2011, 11:33:29 AM »

If God tells you to not call a man Father or Master, and we say "but because Paul did this so can we", that's not a reason.  Paul was a sinner.  We have to read the actual words of God sometimes and we'll see how far things have gone.

Paul, inspired by the Holy Spirit, did this multiple times in scripture.
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« Reply #39 on: July 12, 2011, 11:51:31 AM »

Call no man Father, Rabbi, or Master.

Eastern Orthodox call their priests "Father" and Bishops "Master".

This is clear cut.

We should call the priests and Bishops "Brethren or Brothers or even "Bishop or Priest" is fine. 
This is because Christ told us "we are all brothers".

This is why your "metropolitan" should be bending over and washing your feet which was also commanded by God, as you should wash his.  But no, he's called master and people kiss his hand and hold him as more significant than themselves. 

Of course everybody wants to stick with "Father" to contort the disobedience to God with excuses, but nobody has talked about "Master".



That's clergy washing clergy's feet, not Bishops washing laymen's feet.  We are brethren.
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« Reply #40 on: July 12, 2011, 12:32:04 PM »

OK, so we have one picture.  What it does not tell us is whether bishops only wash priests' feet, or even if this bishop only washed this priest's feet and no other.

In most cases, I have seen bishops wash a number of people's feet during the same rite, usually a priest is included because during 'normal business hours' the bishop runs the priest's life rather completely.  Thus, it is a reversal in a very personal way for both.

But, seriously, you weren't really thinking a single picture was going to impugne the entire Orthodox CHurch, did you?



Call no man Father, Rabbi, or Master.

Eastern Orthodox call their priests "Father" and Bishops "Master".

This is clear cut.

We should call the priests and Bishops "Brethren or Brothers or even "Bishop or Priest" is fine. 
This is because Christ told us "we are all brothers".

This is why your "metropolitan" should be bending over and washing your feet which was also commanded by God, as you should wash his.  But no, he's called master and people kiss his hand and hold him as more significant than themselves. 

Of course everybody wants to stick with "Father" to contort the disobedience to God with excuses, but nobody has talked about "Master".



That's clergy washing clergy's feet, not Bishops washing laymen's feet.  We are brethren.
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« Reply #41 on: July 12, 2011, 05:01:00 PM »

I want everybody to recognize the responses I've gotten.

"I've had more interesting conversations with a shrub".
"Yes I'm messing with Texas".

etc.

I'm not baited to give a rise out of this.  All these things prove to me that it strikes a nerve.  It is only normal to react in hostility to defend a position or practice that you have and its only because you know I am right.

GOD, yes that's right GOD spoke to you and said "Call no man Rabbi, Father or Master".

YOU call a man Father.
YOU call a man Master.

The Eastern Orthodox Church calls their priests "FATHER" & Bishops "MASTER".  

This is in direct OPPOSITION to what GOD told you to do.

What comes back are insults, anger, hostility, and trivial explanations.
I don't know how much more CLEAR Yeshua our God could have been.  
He was speaking of spiritual teachers & leaders when he spoke of this!

I would confess this to your presbyter, your brethren!
Confess it to your Bishop, your brethren!


LOL, not one person made clarity of who NOT to call father or the point of WHY Yeshua would have even said this.  They merely have given excuses, explanations, and sermons on why you should disobey God.   So tell me, if Yeshua said this:

1) Call no man Rabbi
2) Call no man Father
3) Call no man Master

Who was he referring to?

Wait let me guess.  The explanations will be:

1) Don't recognize Jewish Rabbis
2) Quit calling your dad "Father"
3) Don't call your Karate teach Master

LoL

He was speaking of your spiritual leaders, teachers, instructors.
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« Reply #42 on: July 12, 2011, 05:01:00 PM »

If God tells you to not call a man Father or Master, and we say "but because Paul did this so can we", that's not a reason.  Paul was a sinner.  We have to read the actual words of God sometimes and we'll see how far things have gone.

Paul, inspired by the Holy Spirit, did this multiple times in scripture.

Paul did what God told him not to do too.  Where was it written again that Paul was inspired by the holy spirit?  Did Paul write it himself?

I am interested in the COMMAND from God, not what Paul did, not what the apostles did, or any theologian.

1) Do not call a man Rabbi
2) Do not call a man Father
3) Do not call a man Master

We are brethren.  We as brethren are equals.  No Bishops, presbyters, or Jewish instructors are over us.  That's why we are supposed to wash each others feet. 

When is the last time a Bishop scrubbed your feet?
When is the last time you called him Master and kissed up to him?
When is the last time your priest washed your feet?
When is the last time you called your priest "father" and kissed up to him?

We are equals.  That's why Yeshua said we are supposed to be brethren.
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« Reply #43 on: July 12, 2011, 05:01:00 PM »

OK, so we have one picture.  What it does not tell us is whether bishops only wash priests' feet, or even if this bishop only washed this priest's feet and no other.

In most cases, I have seen bishops wash a number of people's feet during the same rite, usually a priest is included because during 'normal business hours' the bishop runs the priest's life rather completely.  Thus, it is a reversal in a very personal way for both.

But, seriously, you weren't really thinking a single picture was going to impugne the entire Orthodox CHurch, did you?



Call no man Father, Rabbi, or Master.

Eastern Orthodox call their priests "Father" and Bishops "Master".

This is clear cut.

We should call the priests and Bishops "Brethren or Brothers or even "Bishop or Priest" is fine. 
This is because Christ told us "we are all brothers".

This is why your "metropolitan" should be bending over and washing your feet which was also commanded by God, as you should wash his.  But no, he's called master and people kiss his hand and hold him as more significant than themselves. 

Of course everybody wants to stick with "Father" to contort the disobedience to God with excuses, but nobody has talked about "Master".



That's clergy washing clergy's feet, not Bishops washing laymen's feet.  We are brethren.

So somebody made a point with a single photo.
I commented on that photo.

Tell me when is the last time EVERYBODY that your bishop washed your feet?  Well that would be obedience to God who said to do it.
When was the last time you called your bishop "Master"?  Well that would be disobedience to God.
When was the last time your priest washed your feet?  Again, Obedience to God.
When is the last time you called your priest "Father"?  Disobedience to God.

When was the last time you had to make excuses and need explanations for disobeying God?

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« Reply #44 on: July 12, 2011, 05:12:32 PM »

Yesh, only a fool thinks he is perfect in obeying God.

But, again you are dodging the real question: if you are so obedient, tell me if you have both your eyes and both your hands?

 Wink



OK, so we have one picture.  What it does not tell us is whether bishops only wash priests' feet, or even if this bishop only washed this priest's feet and no other.

In most cases, I have seen bishops wash a number of people's feet during the same rite, usually a priest is included because during 'normal business hours' the bishop runs the priest's life rather completely.  Thus, it is a reversal in a very personal way for both.

But, seriously, you weren't really thinking a single picture was going to impugne the entire Orthodox CHurch, did you?



Call no man Father, Rabbi, or Master.

Eastern Orthodox call their priests "Father" and Bishops "Master".

This is clear cut.

We should call the priests and Bishops "Brethren or Brothers or even "Bishop or Priest" is fine. 
This is because Christ told us "we are all brothers".

This is why your "metropolitan" should be bending over and washing your feet which was also commanded by God, as you should wash his.  But no, he's called master and people kiss his hand and hold him as more significant than themselves. 

Of course everybody wants to stick with "Father" to contort the disobedience to God with excuses, but nobody has talked about "Master".



That's clergy washing clergy's feet, not Bishops washing laymen's feet.  We are brethren.

So somebody made a point with a single photo.
I commented on that photo.

Tell me when is the last time EVERYBODY that your bishop washed your feet?  Well that would be obedience to God who said to do it.
When was the last time you called your bishop "Master"?  Well that would be disobedience to God.
When was the last time your priest washed your feet?  Again, Obedience to God.
When is the last time you called your priest "Father"?  Disobedience to God.

When was the last time you had to make excuses and need explanations for disobeying God?


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« Reply #45 on: July 12, 2011, 05:26:20 PM »

Re. 'master' in this verse: The word used in the NT is 'καθηγηταί', which is certainly not what you call a bishop when asking his blessing. In that context, 'master' is a translation of 'δέσποτα'.
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« Reply #46 on: July 12, 2011, 07:13:26 PM »

I have noticed a lot of back and forth in this thread. God tells us not to call any man father, etc. Yet God also tells us to cut off our hands and pluck out our eyes, which if we all did as God said none of us would be on this thread making this discussion go on ad nauseum. It boils down to this, are you using your own interpretation of the Bible or are you using the Church's? If your own, I would advise to rexonsider your interpretation and get back to us when you no longer have any eyes or hands, after all God commands us to! Before you come in here and tell us that we have speck of dust in our eye, perhaps you should examine the skyscraper sticking out of your own (I imagine that insurance won't cover the whole cost for that). 
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« Reply #47 on: July 12, 2011, 07:15:04 PM »

Also, in some contexts, 'Master' can mean 'Teacher.'

Just throwing that out there.  Smiley
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« Reply #48 on: July 12, 2011, 09:28:42 PM »

I believe it was St. Jerome who answered essentially the following question regarding Matt. 23.9: "were the apostles sinning and the apostolic scriptures in error when referring to men as father"?   His reply was rather simple and to the point:
The fact that we have one Son of God by nature does not prevent others from being understood as sons of God by adoption.  
Similarly, because we have one who is Father by nature and one who is Teacher by nature does not prevent others by grace in this same adoption from being fathers and teachers.    God the Father is the original by nature, the sole "cause" and thus Father of all by nature, and all others by grace.  Likewise, the Son is the only Begotten Son (i.e. by nature), but in Him many sons by grace.    

Of course, the context of "where the apostles sinning" etc. is the fact that every writer of the New Testament refers to men as fathers.  In addition to St. Paul's quotes, for example, we have:

  1 John 2:13
I write to you, fathers, Because you have known Him who is from the beginning. I write to you, young men, Because you have overcome the wicked one. I write to you, little children, Because you have known the Father.

1 John 2:14
I have written to you, fathers, Because you have known Him who is from the beginning. I have written to you, young men, Because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, And you have overcome the wicked one.
1 Peter 1:18
knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers,
James 2:21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?

BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY, YOU MUST ASK YOURSELF...

Was the Holy Spirit sinning when He moved St. Zacharias to call men his fathers?:  

"Now his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying: '...to perform the mercy promised to our fathers And to remember His holy covenant...the oath which He swore to our father Abraham'" (Luke 1.67-73)

Of course not.  The Holy Spirit does not sin against the Son, nor the Son against the Spirit.    


You have addressed none of the points above nor answered the question here: 

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,37784.msg599327.html#msg599327
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« Reply #49 on: July 12, 2011, 10:06:31 PM »

Call no man Father, Rabbi, or Master.

Eastern Orthodox call their priests "Father" and Bishops "Master".

This is clear cut.

We should call the priests and Bishops "Brethren or Brothers or even "Bishop or Priest" is fine. 
This is because Christ told us "we are all brothers".

This is why your "metropolitan" should be bending over and washing your feet which was also commanded by God, as you should wash his.  But no, he's called master and people kiss his hand and hold him as more significant than themselves. 

Of course everybody wants to stick with "Father" to contort the disobedience to God with excuses, but nobody has talked about "Master".



That's clergy washing clergy's feet, not Bishops washing laymen's feet.  We are brethren.

"That's clergy washing clergy's feet"
exactly. 

Matthew 23.1: 
1 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples
Notice the order.   It does not say that He spoke to "His disciples and the multitudes" but rather the other way around, which linguistically indicates that first He is talking to one, and then the other.   In this case "the disciples" refers to the 12, as there were many among the multitudes who were his followers.  The first things he says cannot apply to the 12:
 “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 Therefore whatever they tell you to observe..."
Likewise, the passage from verse 8 onward becomes specific and certainly does not apply to the multitude.  The multitide would not be called "rabbi," but only the leaders, the Apostles.   They are not to require of other apostolic disciples that they consider them their teacher, for all apostolic leaders (bishops) have one as their teacher, and they are all brethren in the apostolic ministry.   Likewise, none of them is to call another apostolic leader their father, for there is one Father of all apostolic leaders.   Likewise, for all apostolic disciples, one is not to demand of another (say, for example, Peter to demand of Bartholomew) nor even to accept to be called their master, for as apostolic disciples, they have one master.  And we know that He is talking to the Apostles solely in these verses because in all other cases in which Christ states what He states in verse 11, He is only speaking to the Apostles.

Therefore, as is clear from the reading, in verses 1-7 He speaks to the multitudes.  In verse 8 and ff He turns specifically to the Apostles and gives them instructions as brethren in the Apostolic ministry.   In verse 13ff He ceases speaking to the Apostles, nor is He speaking again to the multitudes as a whole, but to the Scribes and Pharisees specifically. 

If anything the verses in question speak against mono-papism within the episcopacy, but certainly not against Orthodox teaching and praxis. 

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« Reply #50 on: July 12, 2011, 10:54:05 PM »

Acts 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers

Acts 3:25 the covenant which God made with our fathers

Acts 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus

Acts 7:2 The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham

Acts 7:4 from thence, when his father was dead

Acts 7:11 our fathers found no sustenance

Acts 7:12  he sent out our fathers first

Acts 7:14 Then sent Joseph, and called his father Jacob to him

Acts 7:15 he, and our fathers

Acts 7:16 Emmor the father of Sychem

Acts 7:19 evil entreated our fathers

Acts 7:20 nourished up in his father's house

Acts 7:32 I am the God of thy fathers

Acts 7:38 with our fathers

Acts 7:39 To whom our fathers would not obey

Acts 7:44 Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness

Acts 7:45 Which also our fathers

Acts 7:51 as your fathers did, so do ye

Acts 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted?

Acts 13:17 The God of this people of Israel chose our fathers

Acts 13:32 how that the promise which was made unto the fathers

Acts 13:36 and was laid unto his fathers

Acts 15:10 neither our fathers nor we were able to bear

Acts 16:1 but his father was a Greek

Acts 16:3 for they knew all that his father was a Greek

Acts 22:1 Men, brethren, and fathers, hear ye my defence which I make now unto you.

Acts 22:3 the law of the fathers

Acts 22:14 The God of our fathers hath chosen thee

Acts 24:14 so worship I the God of my fathers

Acts 26:6 the promise made of God, unto our fathers

Acts 28:8 the father of Publius lay sick

Acts 28:17 customs of our fathers

Acts 28:25 Esaias the prophet unto our fathers

Romans 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father

Romans 4:11 the father of all them that believe

Romans 4:12 our father Abraham

Romans 4:16 Abraham; who is the father of us all

Romans 4:17 I have made thee a father of many nations

Romans 4:18 that he might become the father of many nations

Romans 9:5 Whose are the fathers

Romans 9:10 our father Isaac

Romans 11:28 for the father's sakes

Romans 15:8 to confirm the promises made unto the fathers

1 Corinthians 5:1 that one should have his father's wife

1 Corinthians 10:1 all our fathers were under the cloud

Galatians 1:14 traditions of my fathers

Ephesians 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother

Ephesians 6:2 Honour thy father and mother

Ephesians 6:4 And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath

Philippians 2:22 as a son with the father

1 Timothy 5:1 intreat him as a father

Hebrews 1:1 unto the fathers by the prophets

Hebrews 3:9 When your fathers tempted me

Hebrews 7:3 Without father, without mother

Hebrews 7:10 For he was yet in the loins of his father

Hebrews 8:9 the covenant that I made with their fathers

Hebrews 12:7 what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

Hebrews 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works

1 Peter 1:18 received by tradition from your fathers

2 Peter 3:4 for since the fathers fell asleep

1 John 2:13 I write unto you, fathers

1 John 2:14 I have written unto you, fathers

Oops.
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« Reply #51 on: July 12, 2011, 11:03:24 PM »

Yeshuaisiam, if you read the entire chapter, it becomes quite apparent he is speaking about hypocrites.  Men who seek after fame and honor, who glory in the title of Father, or Master.  It is not speaking about legitimate spiritual fathers, people who do not enjoy being a priest simply because they like prestige and being called Father.

If you read the passage so literally, what do you call the person who stands in front of a room full of ten year olds and educates them on math?  Do you call them a "Mathematical Illuminator" or perhaps "Chief Dissemination Officer for Mathematical Knowledge"?  No.  You call them teacher.  That is because they teach.  To call them otherwise, or to deny them the title, would be hypocritical.  As well, it would be hypocritical if you came up with any word meaning the same thing for a teacher, master, father, etc.  If you said educator, or boss, or dad, those would all be sins as well, because you would be in violation of the spirit of the commandment, if you were right about how Christ's words are to be interpreted.  You would be forced to call the person whose semen helped to create you by his first name or, possibly, "Mr. Last Name."  You could not call him by any special title or reference, not dad or daddy, not father, not biological father, not any special name that you give him because he fathered you.  It would even be hypocritical to say that he fathered you, and yet deny him the title father.  Does Christ endorse hypocrisy, because it would seem to me he rails against it frequently.

If you must attack the Orthodox Church, please at least pick something like icons, or saints, not something so easily and quickly refuted by a simple reading of the context of the passage.


Since you think all of your responses have been snarky comments, please read mine, you may have missed it before, but I have enlarged it now.

As well, I would add a comment.  If you think that calling priests and bishops 'priest' 'bishop' or 'brother' is fine but 'father' is prohibited, don't you think it is hypocritical since they are clearly in a fatherly role, spiritually speaking?
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« Reply #52 on: July 12, 2011, 11:22:23 PM »

Oh, and by the way, lest you accuse us of letting your accusation of "master" slip, Christ said καθηγηταί, and we call our Bishops despota.  So, that one does not work out for you, even in the literal reading and false accusation against God's Holy Orthodox Church. 
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« Reply #53 on: July 13, 2011, 12:48:40 AM »

If God tells you to not call a man Father or Master, and we say "but because Paul did this so can we", that's not a reason.  Paul was a sinner.  We have to read the actual words of God sometimes and we'll see how far things have gone.

Paul, inspired by the Holy Spirit, did this multiple times in scripture.

Paul did what God told him not to do too.  Where was it written again that Paul was inspired by the holy spirit?  Did Paul write it himself?
Then why don't you throw out everything written by an Apostle? Oh, wait... That would mean we have to throw out the Gospel of Matthew you so love quoting because that was written by an Apostle. Hmmm.
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« Reply #54 on: July 13, 2011, 12:53:14 AM »

yeshuaisiam, I notice you haven't said anything to address this:

Quote
I'm quoting the scripture that is from God's own words.

As you see them anyway.

Quote
since it seems to me you're only itching for a fight.

It couldn't be more apparent.


Yeshuaisiam. I've never had that much of a problem with you, but come on brother. If you have a question, ask a question. You set up these diligently worded "questions" and then attack the responders; its ridiculous. Who knows if the explanations are worthy for God, but it seems like you care much more about answers worthy to you.

Please don't have a problem with me either.

Believe me, it's much more than just trying to "troll" for answers or anything.  I've been involved in the Eastern Orthodox faith VERY heavily in my life, if not in practice at a church, I was in study.  I'm coming to find some of the teachings stray not only far, but insanely far from the scriptures,  early church fathers, and from the 1st century Christians.   I've watched "Bishops" betray the communion through ecumenism which lead to my studies that strayed me from "Eastern Orthodox".  I am a seeker of what is "Orthodox" or "The right way".  

I've come to find that one man's heresy is another man's salvation.  Also, that history was written by the victors.   Often the Victors cast out and banished those who spoke the truth.

If God tells you to not call a man Father or Master, and we say "but because Paul did this so can we", that's not a reason.  Paul was a sinner.  We have to read the actual words of God sometimes and we'll see how far things have gone.
St. Paul was an Apostle of Jesus Christ. Now, didn't Jesus say to His Apostles, of whom St. Paul was a member as one born late, "He who receives you receives Me"? Doesn't the converse of this then mean "He who rejects you rejects Me"? Be careful, then, how far you go in rejecting the teaching of the Apostle Paul because he was a sinner. After all, even the chief of the Apostles recognized Paul as an apostle like himself and Paul's teaching as true.

BTW, you do realize that the very Gospel from which you extracted your original quotes is fundamentally the teaching of the Apostle Matthew? Deny the teaching authority of the Apostles, and you deny the very foundation of what we believe to be the teachings of Christ Himself.

BTW, the Council of Jerusalem (cf. Acts, Chapter 15) recognized St. Paul as inspired by the Holy Spirit. So why don't you?
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« Reply #55 on: July 13, 2011, 12:56:47 AM »

Even his beloved Mennonites would start raising eyebrows at this point...
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« Reply #56 on: July 13, 2011, 12:58:43 AM »

Yesh, only a fool thinks he is perfect in obeying God.

But, again you are dodging the real question: if you are so obedient, tell me if you have both your eyes and both your hands?

 Wink



OK, so we have one picture.  What it does not tell us is whether bishops only wash priests' feet, or even if this bishop only washed this priest's feet and no other.

In most cases, I have seen bishops wash a number of people's feet during the same rite, usually a priest is included because during 'normal business hours' the bishop runs the priest's life rather completely.  Thus, it is a reversal in a very personal way for both.

But, seriously, you weren't really thinking a single picture was going to impugne the entire Orthodox CHurch, did you?



Call no man Father, Rabbi, or Master.

Eastern Orthodox call their priests "Father" and Bishops "Master".

This is clear cut.

We should call the priests and Bishops "Brethren or Brothers or even "Bishop or Priest" is fine. 
This is because Christ told us "we are all brothers".

This is why your "metropolitan" should be bending over and washing your feet which was also commanded by God, as you should wash his.  But no, he's called master and people kiss his hand and hold him as more significant than themselves. 

Of course everybody wants to stick with "Father" to contort the disobedience to God with excuses, but nobody has talked about "Master".



That's clergy washing clergy's feet, not Bishops washing laymen's feet.  We are brethren.

So somebody made a point with a single photo.
I commented on that photo.

Tell me when is the last time EVERYBODY that your bishop washed your feet?  Well that would be obedience to God who said to do it.
When was the last time you called your bishop "Master"?  Well that would be disobedience to God.
When was the last time your priest washed your feet?  Again, Obedience to God.
When is the last time you called your priest "Father"?  Disobedience to God.

When was the last time you had to make excuses and need explanations for disobeying God?



This is a contextual argument that strays far from the point. 
Yeshua was not speaking in symbols or parables when he said this.

He said:

1) Call no man Father
2) Call no man Rabbi
3) Call no man Master

BUT rather we should call each other brethren. 


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« Reply #57 on: July 13, 2011, 12:58:43 AM »

Re. 'master' in this verse: The word used in the NT is 'καθηγηταί', which is certainly not what you call a bishop when asking his blessing. In that context, 'master' is a translation of 'δέσποτα'.

Recheck your facts and the word for Bishop in Greek.
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« Reply #58 on: July 13, 2011, 12:58:43 AM »

I have noticed a lot of back and forth in this thread. God tells us not to call any man father, etc. Yet God also tells us to cut off our hands and pluck out our eyes, which if we all did as God said none of us would be on this thread making this discussion go on ad nauseum. It boils down to this, are you using your own interpretation of the Bible or are you using the Church's? If your own, I would advise to rexonsider your interpretation and get back to us when you no longer have any eyes or hands, after all God commands us to! Before you come in here and tell us that we have speck of dust in our eye, perhaps you should examine the skyscraper sticking out of your own (I imagine that insurance won't cover the whole cost for that). 

This is the problem though.  The bible was not written IN

1) My interpretation
OR
2) The church's interpretation

it was written in the Original INTENT of the authors of the books.

In the verse of the plucking out the hands and eyes, it was clearly written as symbolic.  In the verse when speaking of not calling a man father, rabbi, and master, but rather call each other brethren, it was absolutely CLEAR and not symbolic.

The question you have to ask yourself is "What did Yeshua mean then"?   "Who wouldn't I call father, master, and Rabbi if not speaking of spiritual leaders or teachers within a church?" 

I just wonder who you think he was talking about not to call those things?   Thanks.
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« Reply #59 on: July 13, 2011, 12:58:44 AM »

Also, in some contexts, 'Master' can mean 'Teacher.'

Just throwing that out there.  Smiley

Rabbi means teacher too.

We are not supposed to call anybody these.   God told us so.
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« Reply #60 on: July 13, 2011, 12:59:43 AM »

Also, in some contexts, 'Master' can mean 'Teacher.'

Just throwing that out there.  Smiley

Rabbi means teacher too.

We are not supposed to call anybody these.   God told us so.
On what authority do we have it that Jesus is God?
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« Reply #61 on: July 13, 2011, 01:19:15 AM »

Yesh, only a fool thinks he is perfect in obeying God.

But, again you are dodging the real question: if you are so obedient, tell me if you have both your eyes and both your hands?

 Wink



OK, so we have one picture.  What it does not tell us is whether bishops only wash priests' feet, or even if this bishop only washed this priest's feet and no other.

In most cases, I have seen bishops wash a number of people's feet during the same rite, usually a priest is included because during 'normal business hours' the bishop runs the priest's life rather completely.  Thus, it is a reversal in a very personal way for both.

But, seriously, you weren't really thinking a single picture was going to impugne the entire Orthodox CHurch, did you?



Call no man Father, Rabbi, or Master.

Eastern Orthodox call their priests "Father" and Bishops "Master".

This is clear cut.

We should call the priests and Bishops "Brethren or Brothers or even "Bishop or Priest" is fine. 
This is because Christ told us "we are all brothers".

This is why your "metropolitan" should be bending over and washing your feet which was also commanded by God, as you should wash his.  But no, he's called master and people kiss his hand and hold him as more significant than themselves. 

Of course everybody wants to stick with "Father" to contort the disobedience to God with excuses, but nobody has talked about "Master".



That's clergy washing clergy's feet, not Bishops washing laymen's feet.  We are brethren.

So somebody made a point with a single photo.
I commented on that photo.

Tell me when is the last time EVERYBODY that your bishop washed your feet?  Well that would be obedience to God who said to do it.
When was the last time you called your bishop "Master"?  Well that would be disobedience to God.
When was the last time your priest washed your feet?  Again, Obedience to God.
When is the last time you called your priest "Father"?  Disobedience to God.

When was the last time you had to make excuses and need explanations for disobeying God?



This is a contextual argument that strays far from the point. 
Yeshua was not speaking in symbols or parables when he said this.

He said:

1) Call no man Father
2) Call no man Rabbi
3) Call no man Master

BUT rather we should call each other brethren. 


No, you are quoting amiss.  He did not say what you have said in any case. 
He said:
Do not be called...Rabbi or Master (the word is not despota, as Orthodox Bishops are called)
Call not father (the Greek does not say "man")

Just admit you are wrong on all cases.  You have no credibility otherwise.   
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« Reply #62 on: July 13, 2011, 02:40:31 AM »

I have noticed a lot of back and forth in this thread. God tells us not to call any man father, etc. Yet God also tells us to cut off our hands and pluck out our eyes, which if we all did as God said none of us would be on this thread making this discussion go on ad nauseum. It boils down to this, are you using your own interpretation of the Bible or are you using the Church's? If your own, I would advise to rexonsider your interpretation and get back to us when you no longer have any eyes or hands, after all God commands us to! Before you come in here and tell us that we have speck of dust in our eye, perhaps you should examine the skyscraper sticking out of your own (I imagine that insurance won't cover the whole cost for that). 

This is the problem though.  The bible was not written IN

1) My interpretation
OR
2) The church's interpretation

it was written in the Original INTENT of the authors of the books.

In the verse of the plucking out the hands and eyes, it was clearly written as symbolic.  In the verse when speaking of not calling a man father, rabbi, and master, but rather call each other brethren, it was absolutely CLEAR and not symbolic.

The question you have to ask yourself is "What did Yeshua mean then"?   "Who wouldn't I call father, master, and Rabbi if not speaking of spiritual leaders or teachers within a church?" 

I just wonder who you think he was talking about not to call those things?   Thanks.

You have just proved that you are using your own interpretation to judge the meaning of Christ's words.  You see, while to you it is clear that Christ didn't really mean you should maim yourself to prevent sins, not everyone over time has thought so.  For instance, there is a canon of the Church which cast out all priests and bishops who made themselves eunuchs, in a literal sense, as these people believed Christ had told them to, in the Gospel.  Consequently, the fact that you are deciding what is obviously literal and what is obviously symbolic, when people have not always agreed it was so obvious, proves you are using your own interpretation.  There is never an obvious interpretation of a text written 2,000 years ago.  There is only an interpretation that seems likely to the individual, and of course the Patristic consensus that has always existed, and is the interpretation of the Church.
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« Reply #63 on: July 13, 2011, 04:50:28 AM »

Re. 'master' in this verse: The word used in the NT is 'καθηγηταί', which is certainly not what you call a bishop when asking his blessing. In that context, 'master' is a translation of 'δέσποτα'.

Recheck your facts and the word for Bishop in Greek.

I would recommend that you do the same. We call our bishops 'despota' when asking for a blessing. You don't even need to know a word of Greek to be able to open a Greek NT and see that this word is found nowhere in the verse you quoted. The fact that the same English word can be used to translate both is neither here nor there. The Bible was not written in English.

10.  What's the first thing you do when you see a bishop?  Bow, touch the floor and say what?  "Master bless".   Guess what, you did it again!  You called a man MASTER.  Jesus told you not to call anybody master.  Yet it is specifically done.  Is there an explanation?  I'm sure. But does the explanation meet worthy to disobey God?
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« Reply #64 on: July 13, 2011, 06:25:18 AM »

This is what happens when you read for one-liners and not for context.

 Roll Eyes

He'd better call all the school districts and tell them to stop addressing their workers as 'teachers.' I don't know what else he'll call them, but he's honor-bound to do it, or else look silly.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #65 on: July 13, 2011, 06:57:54 AM »

This is what happens when you read for one-liners and not for context.

 Roll Eyes

He'd better call all the school districts and tell them to stop addressing their workers as 'teachers.' I don't know what else he'll call them, but he's honor-bound to do it, or else look silly.  Roll Eyes

He could call them Sir or Ma'am, I suppose. Oh, wait ....  Roll Eyes laugh
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« Reply #66 on: July 13, 2011, 03:34:48 PM »

Yesh, only a fool thinks he is perfect in obeying God.

But, again you are dodging the real question: if you are so obedient, tell me if you have both your eyes and both your hands?

 Wink



OK, so we have one picture.  What it does not tell us is whether bishops only wash priests' feet, or even if this bishop only washed this priest's feet and no other.

In most cases, I have seen bishops wash a number of people's feet during the same rite, usually a priest is included because during 'normal business hours' the bishop runs the priest's life rather completely.  Thus, it is a reversal in a very personal way for both.

But, seriously, you weren't really thinking a single picture was going to impugne the entire Orthodox CHurch, did you?



Call no man Father, Rabbi, or Master.

Eastern Orthodox call their priests "Father" and Bishops "Master".

This is clear cut.

We should call the priests and Bishops "Brethren or Brothers or even "Bishop or Priest" is fine. 
This is because Christ told us "we are all brothers".

This is why your "metropolitan" should be bending over and washing your feet which was also commanded by God, as you should wash his.  But no, he's called master and people kiss his hand and hold him as more significant than themselves. 

Of course everybody wants to stick with "Father" to contort the disobedience to God with excuses, but nobody has talked about "Master".



That's clergy washing clergy's feet, not Bishops washing laymen's feet.  We are brethren.

So somebody made a point with a single photo.
I commented on that photo.

Tell me when is the last time EVERYBODY that your bishop washed your feet?  Well that would be obedience to God who said to do it.
When was the last time you called your bishop "Master"?  Well that would be disobedience to God.
When was the last time your priest washed your feet?  Again, Obedience to God.
When is the last time you called your priest "Father"?  Disobedience to God.

When was the last time you had to make excuses and need explanations for disobeying God?



This is a contextual argument that strays far from the point. 
Yeshua was not speaking in symbols or parables when he said this.

He said:

1) Call no man Father
2) Call no man Rabbi
3) Call no man Master

BUT rather we should call each other brethren. 


No, you are quoting amiss.  He did not say what you have said in any case. 
He said:
Do not be called...Rabbi or Master (the word is not despota, as Orthodox Bishops are called)
Call not father (the Greek does not say "man")

Just admit you are wrong on all cases.  You have no credibility otherwise.   


So you don't bow, touch the floor and say "Master Bless" ?
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« Reply #67 on: July 13, 2011, 03:34:48 PM »

Even his beloved Mennonites would start raising eyebrows at this point...

Beloved Mennonites? 

You mean the ones that don't bow, cross themselves, venerate, bow again, cross themselves, enchant objects through blessing, iconostasis, antimentions, holy this, holy that, sacred this, sacred that, holy saints, holy cloths, holy vestments, holy water, holy altars..... hmm.

No not those whose bishops permitted crusades...
Not those who claim the one true church and engage in ecumenism..

Okie.. Whatever.

Take 2 wafers, 1 schism (no wait tons of schisms) and call me lame.
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« Reply #68 on: July 13, 2011, 03:35:18 PM »

Also, in some contexts, 'Master' can mean 'Teacher.'

Just throwing that out there.  Smiley

Rabbi means teacher too.

We are not supposed to call anybody these.   God told us so.
On what authority do we have it that Jesus is God?

Yeshua said that he was God.

"Before Abraham was born I AM"
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« Reply #69 on: July 13, 2011, 03:35:18 PM »

Acts 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers

Acts 3:25 the covenant which God made with our fathers

Acts 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus

Acts 7:2 The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham

Acts 7:4 from thence, when his father was dead

Acts 7:11 our fathers found no sustenance

Acts 7:12  he sent out our fathers first

Acts 7:14 Then sent Joseph, and called his father Jacob to him

Acts 7:15 he, and our fathers

Acts 7:16 Emmor the father of Sychem

Acts 7:19 evil entreated our fathers

Acts 7:20 nourished up in his father's house

Acts 7:32 I am the God of thy fathers

Acts 7:38 with our fathers

Acts 7:39 To whom our fathers would not obey

Acts 7:44 Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness

Acts 7:45 Which also our fathers

Acts 7:51 as your fathers did, so do ye

Acts 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted?

Acts 13:17 The God of this people of Israel chose our fathers

Acts 13:32 how that the promise which was made unto the fathers

Acts 13:36 and was laid unto his fathers

Acts 15:10 neither our fathers nor we were able to bear

Acts 16:1 but his father was a Greek

Acts 16:3 for they knew all that his father was a Greek

Acts 22:1 Men, brethren, and fathers, hear ye my defence which I make now unto you.

Acts 22:3 the law of the fathers

Acts 22:14 The God of our fathers hath chosen thee

Acts 24:14 so worship I the God of my fathers

Acts 26:6 the promise made of God, unto our fathers

Acts 28:8 the father of Publius lay sick

Acts 28:17 customs of our fathers

Acts 28:25 Esaias the prophet unto our fathers

Romans 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father

Romans 4:11 the father of all them that believe

Romans 4:12 our father Abraham

Romans 4:16 Abraham; who is the father of us all

Romans 4:17 I have made thee a father of many nations

Romans 4:18 that he might become the father of many nations

Romans 9:5 Whose are the fathers

Romans 9:10 our father Isaac

Romans 11:28 for the father's sakes

Romans 15:8 to confirm the promises made unto the fathers

1 Corinthians 5:1 that one should have his father's wife

1 Corinthians 10:1 all our fathers were under the cloud

Galatians 1:14 traditions of my fathers

Ephesians 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother

Ephesians 6:2 Honour thy father and mother

Ephesians 6:4 And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath

Philippians 2:22 as a son with the father

1 Timothy 5:1 intreat him as a father

Hebrews 1:1 unto the fathers by the prophets

Hebrews 3:9 When your fathers tempted me

Hebrews 7:3 Without father, without mother

Hebrews 7:10 For he was yet in the loins of his father

Hebrews 8:9 the covenant that I made with their fathers

Hebrews 12:7 what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

Hebrews 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works

1 Peter 1:18 received by tradition from your fathers

2 Peter 3:4 for since the fathers fell asleep

1 John 2:13 I write unto you, fathers

1 John 2:14 I have written unto you, fathers

Oops.

So are you showing examples of the disobedience to Christ?

Don't forget one of the main authors of these books was also a murderer of Christians for a while.  Let's quote that.
Also his disciple Luke, wrote the book of Luke.

This is besides the point though.

Just because our brethren did it doesn't mean we should.
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« Reply #70 on: July 13, 2011, 07:00:25 PM »

Where did you get the idea that burning incense equals enchantment?

And yes, holy this, holy that... everything God made is holy. We are made in his eikon (image) and likeness. That is why we thank God for His creation.
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« Reply #71 on: July 13, 2011, 07:03:29 PM »

Quote from: yeshuaisiam

So are you showing examples of the disobedience to Christ?

Don't forget one of the main authors of these books was also a murderer of Christians for a while.  Let's quote that.
Also his disciple Luke, wrote the book of Luke.

This is besides the point though.

Just because our brethren did it doesn't mean we should.

If the passages above constitute 'disobedience,' and you extrapolate that to the books which contain the verses, you just chucked out a good portion of the New Testament.

Is this some sort of game? Because if it's not, it would lack even that risible point.
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« Reply #72 on: July 13, 2011, 07:54:04 PM »

Yeshuaism, is there any particular reason you've ignored my posts?
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« Reply #73 on: July 13, 2011, 08:33:24 PM »

Quote
No not those whose bishops permitted crusades...

Yeshuaisiam, your ignorance of history is telling, if not shameful. The Crusades were not the progeny of the Orthodox.
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« Reply #74 on: July 13, 2011, 09:12:10 PM »

Even his beloved Mennonites would start raising eyebrows at this point...

Beloved Mennonites? 

You mean the ones that don't bow, cross themselves, venerate, bow again, cross themselves, enchant objects through blessing, iconostasis, antimentions, holy this, holy that, sacred this, sacred that, holy saints, holy cloths, holy vestments, holy water, holy altars..... hmm.

No not those whose bishops permitted crusades...
Not those who claim the one true church and engage in ecumenism..

Okie.. Whatever.

Take 2 wafers, 1 schism (no wait tons of schisms) and call me lame.

Matter can be sanctified just as much as souls can.
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« Reply #75 on: July 13, 2011, 10:08:34 PM »

So are you showing examples of the disobedience to Christ?

I'm showing examples of your wrongness. Your understanding of Christ's words was not known to the Apostles, and therefore it is wrong.

And 16 of those references to human "fathers" were from St. Stephen's speech before the assembly of the Jews. The Acts say he was "filled with the Holy Spirit" when he said those things, so I doubt he was disobeying Christ at that time. But if you want to walk the line of committing the unforgivable sin, go right ahead.

Don't forget one of the main authors of these books was also a murderer of Christians for a while.  Let's quote that.

And he repented of that and changed his ways. I don't see the apostles repenting for calling people "father". (Probably because it's not a sin.)

Pretty gutsy of you to be judging the Apostles the way you are. I'm pretty sure the Apostles will be sitting in judgment of us, and not vice-versa.

Just because our brethren did it doesn't mean we should.

Yes it does.

Be ye imitators of me, even as I also am of Christ.
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« Reply #76 on: July 13, 2011, 10:54:08 PM »

Yeshuaism, is there any particular reason you've ignored my posts?

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« Reply #77 on: July 13, 2011, 11:55:10 PM »

Also, in some contexts, 'Master' can mean 'Teacher.'

Just throwing that out there.  Smiley

Rabbi means teacher too.

We are not supposed to call anybody these.   God told us so.
On what authority do we have it that Jesus is God?

Yeshua said that he was God.

"Before Abraham was born I AM"
But who was it that recorded that statement? HINT: He was also an apostle.
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« Reply #78 on: July 14, 2011, 12:26:31 PM »

Quote
No not those whose bishops permitted crusades...

Yeshuaisiam, your ignorance of history is telling, if not shameful. The Crusades were not the progeny of the Orthodox.

BZZZT.  Wrong.

You need to read history.  There were EASTERN ORTHODOX Bishops involved as well.
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« Reply #79 on: July 14, 2011, 12:26:31 PM »

So are you showing examples of the disobedience to Christ?

I'm showing examples of your wrongness. Your understanding of Christ's words was not known to the Apostles, and therefore it is wrong.

And 16 of those references to human "fathers" were from St. Stephen's speech before the assembly of the Jews. The Acts say he was "filled with the Holy Spirit" when he said those things, so I doubt he was disobeying Christ at that time. But if you want to walk the line of committing the unforgivable sin, go right ahead.

Don't forget one of the main authors of these books was also a murderer of Christians for a while.  Let's quote that.

And he repented of that and changed his ways. I don't see the apostles repenting for calling people "father". (Probably because it's not a sin.)

Pretty gutsy of you to be judging the Apostles the way you are. I'm pretty sure the Apostles will be sitting in judgment of us, and not vice-versa.

Just because our brethren did it doesn't mean we should.

Yes it does.

Be ye imitators of me, even as I also am of Christ.
–St Paul, 1 Corinthians 11:1

Just because all your friends jump off a bridge does not mean that you have to as well.

Just because some of the apostles said "father" does not make it right.  Remember there were also apostles that denied Christ, and Paul murdered Christians in cold blood.

Christ said

"Do NOT call any man father" - This means don't call any man father.  Period.
"Do NOT call any man rabbi" - This means don't call any man rabbi.  Period.
"Do NOT call any man master" - This means don't call any man Master.  Period.

This was recorded by Matthew (Perhaps not heard by the others? I don't know).  All I know is God said it.

All I know is the Eastern Orthodox make constant excuses as to why to do things God directly said not to do.

Don't you think there would be a better thing to call priests or bishops than "Father and Master".  Something that wouldn't need so many excuses for disobedience?
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« Reply #80 on: July 14, 2011, 12:41:11 PM »

Jesus also said to hate your mother and father.

So is He asking us to hate God?

Enjoy more of the attention.
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« Reply #81 on: July 14, 2011, 01:06:28 PM »


Ah, now we are at the crux of the matter.

You are willing to dismiss 'some of the apostles,' but not the testimony of St. Matthew... an Apostle.

What if St. Matthew had recorded it wrong and the others were right?  How many decades transpired between this saying and its writing?

If you are going to dismiss some of the Apostles, you have to dismiss all of them because Christianity has never denigrated some Apostles in favor of others.  You are inventing a new measure of the Faith, one that is wrong and leads to heresy.

Christianity embraces all of the Apostles, not just one or the other.

Even when they sinned, the Scriptures and Tradition are very clear that they repented.   The Scriptures would not let stand an error.  The essence of your argument is that the Scriptures allow errors to stand uncorrected.  This is heresy.


<snip>
Just because some of the apostles said "father" does not make it right.  Remember there were also apostles that denied Christ, and Paul murdered Christians in cold blood.

Christ said

"Do NOT call any man father" - This means don't call any man father.  Period.
"Do NOT call any man rabbi" - This means don't call any man rabbi.  Period.
"Do NOT call any man master" - This means don't call any man Master.  Period.
<snip>
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« Reply #82 on: July 14, 2011, 01:13:55 PM »

Also, in some contexts, 'Master' can mean 'Teacher.'

Just throwing that out there.  Smiley

Rabbi means teacher too.

We are not supposed to call anybody these.   God told us so.
On what authority do we have it that Jesus is God?

Yeshua said that he was God.

"Before Abraham was born I AM"
But who was it that recorded that statement? HINT: He was also an apostle.

Yes, John was an Apostle.  The beloved.

Who was it that said "Call no man rabbi, father, or master"?  HINT: He was part of the Trinity.
Who calls people "Father and Master"?  HINT: It's a church that claims its the one true church.

Who washed your feet last in your church as God commanded?
Who's hand do you venerate as a non-equal brethren?
When is the last time you bishop washed your feet as a brother?
When was the last time you kissed up to your bishop as if he was something overwhelmingly special?

Which apostle venerated images of the likeness of things on heaven and earth?
Which church plays like your veneration is like "beaming up" your veneration to the person "represented"?
What did God tell you not to make in the 1st commandment?
What is an iconostasis and what apostle did that?
What "father" do you confess your sins to?  Or do you to it to "one another" as commanded?
When you pray before meals do you thank God in your prayer as taught by God?
Which table of oblation did Christ use again in the last supper?
When did Christ or any apostle venerate Mary?

You people act as though I'm nuts.  

I'm not the one kissing paint and wood that was "blessed" by a "father" bowing and crossing myself thinking it makes any difference.   I'm just here telling you the iconostasis did NOT exist, nor the structure of the church as you know it to the original apostles.

I'm here saying the orignal apostles are our brethren, and that's how God set it up.

It is my firm belief that Eastern Orthodoxy is merely a dogma laced morph of the beautiful early church that once existed.   Just because you call these guys saints (such as James) and label him a patriarch, doesn't mean that's really what he was.  He was our brother, our brethren.

All this fluff is just a bunch of OCD superstition of the once beautiful church that existed.  

I mean.. ya know... Everybody has a halo.  Uh huh....

Early Christianity was a lot more Jewish than most of you can imagine.  There was no

1) Iconostasis.
2) Veneration of hands.
3) Worries of apostolic succession.
4) 80,000 pieces of dogma and procedure.
5) Communion was more of a passover meal, not some huge drawn out blessing in a consecrated altar behind an iconostasis with byzantine king garb.


If I'm wrong show me of the iconostasis in EARLY Christianity. 100-200 A.D.
If I'm wrong show me where everybody venerated icons in EARLY Christianity.
If I'm wrong show me all of the extreme dogma in EARLY Christianity.
If I'm wrong show me where confession was to a church "father" in EARLY Christianity.

So basically pipe out all the excuses and explanations.

The explanations to my questions are "The church evolved, and we kiss wood & paint because of...."
Too many excuses.  Too many explanations.   Even the "Patriarchs" are in ecumenism, which slaps Eastern Orthodox tradition in the face.  But people make excuses and have explanations for that.

So explain to me again.

When GOD - not apostles - but GOD - yes  YHWH, Yeshua, and the Holy Spirit says:
1) Call no man FATHER
2) Call no man Rabbi
3) Call no man MASTER

Why do the Eastern Orthodox Christians say:  But because.... and this... and that.....  this is why.... and "I'm messing with Texas"... and "You are ignorant".......  

The bottom line is you are disobeying Yeshua, your God.   He said NOT TO do it.   No matter what theologian, priest, or church elder has made excuses for to disobey him.

I'm having trouble understanding the logic of many here.   No means no.  Not means not.  Do not means "Do not".

GOD the top of all authority said:  "DO NOT"

You say: "We can because so and so, and this and that".

So are you going to continue to DO what God said "DO NOT" to?

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« Reply #83 on: July 14, 2011, 01:31:45 PM »

<snip>
You people act as though I'm nuts.  
<snip>

Well, yes, I'm sure there are plenty of people here who think you are nuts because you are engaging the topic in an inconsistent manner.

Your approach to the Scriptures is inconsistent, since you are willing to say some parts of the Scripture are incorrect or not to be taken at face value while others are immoveably and literally true.

Because you move your standards back and forth, the common perception will be that you are either ignorant, dishonest or crazy.  Somehow, I think that this is your impression of us as well, in large part because we are not lining up with your standards.  The difficulty is that we cannot keep up with your inconsistent approach.

We generally think of such inconsistencies as heresy.
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« Reply #84 on: July 14, 2011, 01:43:32 PM »

Also, in some contexts, 'Master' can mean 'Teacher.'

Just throwing that out there.  Smiley

Rabbi means teacher too.

We are not supposed to call anybody these.   God told us so.
On what authority do we have it that Jesus is God?

Yeshua said that he was God.

"Before Abraham was born I AM"
But who was it that recorded that statement? HINT: He was also an apostle.

Yes, John was an Apostle.  The beloved.

Who was it that said "Call no man rabbi, father, or master"?  HINT: He was part of the Trinity.
You wouldn't know Jesus as God if not for the Church.
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« Reply #85 on: July 14, 2011, 02:14:09 PM »

Just because some of the apostles said "father" does not make it right.

St. Stephen, filled with the Holy Spirit such that his face was shining with glory, called Abraham and others his "fathers". Your blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is your business.

What about these examples:

Matthew 10:21 - And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.

Matthew 10:35 - For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

Matthew 10:37 - He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

Matthew 15:4 - For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.

Matthew 19:5 - And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

Matthew 19:19 - Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Matthew 19:29 - And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

Matthew 21:31 - Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

Matthew 23:32 - Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

Mark 7:10 - For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:

Mark 7:12 - And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;

Mark 10:7 - For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;

Mark 10:19 - Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.

Mark 10:29 - And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,

Mark 13:12 - Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.

Luke 6:23 - Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.

Luke 6:26 - Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.

Luke 11:11 - If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?

Luke 11:47-48 - Woe unto you! for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and your fathers killed them. Truly ye bear witness that ye allow the deeds of your fathers: for they indeed killed them, and ye build their sepulchres.

Luke 14:26 - If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Luke 15:12 - And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living.

Luke 15:17-18 - And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger! I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,

Luke 15:20-22 - And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him. And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son. But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:

Luke 15:27-29 - And he said unto him, Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound. And he was angry, and would not go in: therefore came his father out, and intreated him. And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:

Luke 16:24 - And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Luke 16:27 - Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

Luke 16:30 - And he said, Nay, Father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

Luke 18:20 - Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.

John 6:49 - Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

John 6:58 - This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

John 7:22 - Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers; and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man.

John 8:56 - Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

The Son of God, referring to human beings as "fathers." Tisk tisk. I suppose Jesus was a sinner too, along with the Holy Spirit?
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« Reply #86 on: July 14, 2011, 03:49:39 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Also, in some contexts, 'Master' can mean 'Teacher.'

Just throwing that out there.  Smiley

Rabbi means teacher too.

We are not supposed to call anybody these.   God told us so.
On what authority do we have it that Jesus is God?

Yeshua said that he was God.

"Before Abraham was born I AM"
But who was it that recorded that statement? HINT: He was also an apostle.

Yes, John was an Apostle.  The beloved.

Who was it that said "Call no man rabbi, father, or master"?  HINT: He was part of the Trinity.
Who calls people "Father and Master"?  HINT: It's a church that claims its the one true church.

Who washed your feet last in your church as God commanded?
Who's hand do you venerate as a non-equal brethren?
When is the last time you bishop washed your feet as a brother?
When was the last time you kissed up to your bishop as if he was something overwhelmingly special?

Which apostle venerated images of the likeness of things on heaven and earth?
Which church plays like your veneration is like "beaming up" your veneration to the person "represented"?
What did God tell you not to make in the 1st commandment?
What is an iconostasis and what apostle did that?
What "father" do you confess your sins to?  Or do you to it to "one another" as commanded?
When you pray before meals do you thank God in your prayer as taught by God?
Which table of oblation did Christ use again in the last supper?
When did Christ or any apostle venerate Mary?

You people act as though I'm nuts.  

I'm not the one kissing paint and wood that was "blessed" by a "father" bowing and crossing myself thinking it makes any difference.   I'm just here telling you the iconostasis did NOT exist, nor the structure of the church as you know it to the original apostles.

I'm here saying the orignal apostles are our brethren, and that's how God set it up.

It is my firm belief that Eastern Orthodoxy is merely a dogma laced morph of the beautiful early church that once existed.   Just because you call these guys saints (such as James) and label him a patriarch, doesn't mean that's really what he was.  He was our brother, our brethren.

All this fluff is just a bunch of OCD superstition of the once beautiful church that existed.  

I mean.. ya know... Everybody has a halo.  Uh huh....

Early Christianity was a lot more Jewish than most of you can imagine.  There was no

1) Iconostasis.
2) Veneration of hands.
3) Worries of apostolic succession.
4) 80,000 pieces of dogma and procedure.
5) Communion was more of a passover meal, not some huge drawn out blessing in a consecrated altar behind an iconostasis with byzantine king garb.


If I'm wrong show me of the iconostasis in EARLY Christianity. 100-200 A.D.
If I'm wrong show me where everybody venerated icons in EARLY Christianity.
If I'm wrong show me all of the extreme dogma in EARLY Christianity.
If I'm wrong show me where confession was to a church "father" in EARLY Christianity.

So basically pipe out all the excuses and explanations.

The explanations to my questions are "The church evolved, and we kiss wood & paint because of...."
Too many excuses.  Too many explanations.   Even the "Patriarchs" are in ecumenism, which slaps Eastern Orthodox tradition in the face.  But people make excuses and have explanations for that.

So explain to me again.

When GOD - not apostles - but GOD - yes  YHWH, Yeshua, and the Holy Spirit says:
1) Call no man FATHER
2) Call no man Rabbi
3) Call no man MASTER

Why do the Eastern Orthodox Christians say:  But because.... and this... and that.....  this is why.... and "I'm messing with Texas"... and "You are ignorant".......  

The bottom line is you are disobeying Yeshua, your God.   He said NOT TO do it.   No matter what theologian, priest, or church elder has made excuses for to disobey him.

I'm having trouble understanding the logic of many here.   No means no.  Not means not.  Do not means "Do not".

GOD the top of all authority said:  "DO NOT"

You say: "We can because so and so, and this and that".

So are you going to continue to DO what God said "DO NOT" to?



Brother, do you honestly expect to come into an Orthodox forum and continually and rudely scathe Orthodoxy and the Holy Tradition and expect any of us to take you any more seriously then we already have? Lord have His Mercy are you that dense?  Calling us crazy for our adherence to the Holy Tradition is not very polite fellowship, I expect better from you as I usually enjoy your input to these discussions.  However, if you insist on being so vitriolic, well then that speaks for itself unfortunately Sad

I will only say this and reiterate it yet again:

Where does God say such things literally and personally? The Scriptures are a book, paper, that is all.  Sorry, they are not in themselves perfect nor Divine.  Rather, God Himself, in His Godhead, is perfect and true, and God Himself is Omnipotent well and beyond the limits of any kind of Scriptures or interpretations.  In Orthodox, we don't rely on Sola Scripture or to legalistically on the Tradition, instead we turn to God in our hearts directly.  Its not the Bible that speaks for God, God Himself is fully able to speak for Himself in the here and now.  So please, stop bible thumping on us, we are just ontologically on a different playing field in this regard to "listening to God"

We Commune directly with "Yehshua" and He speaks to us in our Church, not just the Scriptures, please stop insulting us by pretending He only speaks to you and your personalized interpretations of the Scriptures Wink

stay blessed,
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« Reply #87 on: July 14, 2011, 05:06:37 PM »

Also, in some contexts, 'Master' can mean 'Teacher.'

Just throwing that out there.  Smiley

Rabbi means teacher too.

We are not supposed to call anybody these.   God told us so.
On what authority do we have it that Jesus is God?

Yeshua said that he was God.

"Before Abraham was born I AM"
But who was it that recorded that statement? HINT: He was also an apostle.

Yes, John was an Apostle.  The beloved.

Who was it that said "Call no man rabbi, father, or master"?  HINT: He was part of the Trinity.
You wouldn't know Jesus as God if not for the Church.

True.  But the church wasn't Eastern Orthodoxy in practice at all in the beginning.
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« Reply #88 on: July 14, 2011, 05:06:38 PM »

<snip>
You people act as though I'm nuts.  
<snip>

Well, yes, I'm sure there are plenty of people here who think you are nuts because you are engaging the topic in an inconsistent manner.

Your approach to the Scriptures is inconsistent, since you are willing to say some parts of the Scripture are incorrect or not to be taken at face value while others are immoveably and literally true.

Because you move your standards back and forth, the common perception will be that you are either ignorant, dishonest or crazy.  Somehow, I think that this is your impression of us as well, in large part because we are not lining up with your standards.  The difficulty is that we cannot keep up with your inconsistent approach.

We generally think of such inconsistencies as heresy.


I suppose you see how brainwashing the Eastern Orthodox faith is.  I've lived the life as an Eastern Orthodox Christian for many years.  I've even lived at St. Vladimir's seminary in New York. I've been surrounded by Eastern Orthodoxy practically my entire life. 

So what you are witnessing is my struggle.  I lean towards it and away from it in many aspects.

I lean towards it because of the threads that hang on to the original church.
I lean away from it because of all the un-needed fluff that is completely inconsistent with early Christianity.
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« Reply #89 on: July 14, 2011, 05:09:02 PM »

Yeshuaism, I am hereby considering you a troll until you address at least one of the arguments in my posts.  Consequently, until this happens,  I will ignore every post of yours anywhere on the board.  This means any question you ask or comments on any post of mine in any thread.  I just wanted to give you fair warning so you don't think I am unable to answer your claims or questions or concerns with any of my posts, in the future.
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« Reply #90 on: July 14, 2011, 05:11:56 PM »

Quote from: yeshuaisiam
But the church wasn't Eastern Orthodoxy in practice at all in the beginning.

Good luck with that.  Tongue  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #91 on: July 14, 2011, 05:18:57 PM »

I just have this to say:

The Church is a living, breathing organism. It will stand the test of time, but with humanity as members (parts) of the Body, it will undergo some sort of temporal changes. We must ensure that the key truths remain intact, but using outlets like technology, as well as continuing time-honored traditions as those you so despise in the Church, can add to the role of the Church if we make sure that the truth of Christianity is still plain and clear.

If you want to join the exact same "version" of Christianity that began the minute that Jesus left this earth, good luck finding it. I do suggest probably turning off your laptop and not reading a Bible, though.

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« Reply #92 on: July 14, 2011, 05:23:23 PM »

I just have this to say:

The Church is a living, breathing organism. It will stand the test of time, but with humanity as members (parts) of the Body, it will undergo some sort of temporal changes. We must ensure that the key truths remain intact, but using outlets like technology, as well as continuing time-honored traditions as those you so despise in the Church, can add to the role of the Church if we make sure that the truth of Christianity is still plain and clear.

If you want to join the exact same "version" of Christianity that began the minute that Jesus left this earth, good luck finding it. I do suggest probably turning off your laptop and not reading a Bible, though.



The question, I suggest you ask people in these situations is simply when did the "Church" begin. The Church Fathers have some interesting ideas on it.

Now, before I am invariably asked to back up the point I am trying to make, I will need to speak with my Priest with whom I was discussing this recently for the Patristic sources, and who is recovering from some serious personal loss.

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« Reply #93 on: July 14, 2011, 05:24:42 PM »


The question, I suggest you ask people in these situations is simply when did the "Church" begin. The Church Fathers have some interesting ideas on it.

But they supported such evil things as iconography, so I don't know what kind of help they would be in this instance.

Liora
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« Reply #94 on: July 14, 2011, 05:36:05 PM »


The question, I suggest you ask people in these situations is simply when did the "Church" begin. The Church Fathers have some interesting ideas on it.

But they supported such evil things as iconography, so I don't know what kind of help they would be in this instance.

Liora

When did the Church begin?
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« Reply #95 on: July 14, 2011, 05:42:50 PM »

*I* don't know the answer to that question myself. Please tell me where you are leading?
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« Reply #96 on: July 14, 2011, 06:02:51 PM »

So you don't bow, touch the floor and say "Master Bless" ?

Christ did not speak English, nor were his words recorded in English. His words were recorded in Greek. Consequently, the English word 'master' does not appear anywhere in the original text New Testament. As I already said, twice, the verse tells us not to call people "καθηγηταί". The word we use to address a bishop is "δέσποτα". I'm sure you're capable of seeing that these two words are not the same, nor do they share a common root, nor do they have the same meaning or share the same connotation.

It so happens that certain translators of the Bible decided to render the word καθηγηταί with the English word 'master' (many others use 'teacher'), which happens to be the same English words other use to translate δέσποτα. Once again, the two Greek words are completely different. That translators have chosen to render them both with the same English word does not change that fact.

Therefore, when a person bows and says 'Master, bless' s/he is not guilty of calling anyone καθηγηταί, but is attempting convey in English the word δέσποτα. So, even if one were to apply your juvenile and overly literal exegetical method to the verse in question, the criticism you're attempting to raise is an entirely invalid one.
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« Reply #97 on: July 14, 2011, 06:11:51 PM »


The question, I suggest you ask people in these situations is simply when did the "Church" begin. The Church Fathers have some interesting ideas on it.

But they supported such evil things as iconography, so I don't know what kind of help they would be in this instance.

Liora

When did the Church begin?

In my opinion, Adam was the first member of the Lord's Church in time.

Am I on the right track?
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« Reply #98 on: July 14, 2011, 07:49:05 PM »

Yeshuaisiam, what do you say about all those examples I posted of Christ referring to human persons as "father"?
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« Reply #99 on: July 14, 2011, 07:50:56 PM »


The question, I suggest you ask people in these situations is simply when did the "Church" begin. The Church Fathers have some interesting ideas on it.

But they supported such evil things as iconography, so I don't know what kind of help they would be in this instance.

Liora

When did the Church begin?

In my opinion, Adam was the first member of the Lord's Church in time.

Am I on the right track?

This is the direction my Priest was talking about, but even a bit more "radical". It began with the first noetic creature, material or otherwise. So if your view holds that the creation of the orders of immaterial creatures preceded man, then the Church began then.

He expounded on it a bit, because I gave him my typical "I think you are full of it look". Furrowed brow with a smirk.

Interestingly, the sources he gave and how he explained it didn't resort to any sort "ontological" Church beginning then in light of Pentecost, but that, as you say, in time, the Church began with the creation of the first noetic creature.

EDIT: Maybe this is old hat to many of you, but I had never heard of such an idea.
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« Reply #100 on: July 14, 2011, 08:29:19 PM »


The question, I suggest you ask people in these situations is simply when did the "Church" begin. The Church Fathers have some interesting ideas on it.

But they supported such evil things as iconography, so I don't know what kind of help they would be in this instance.

Liora

When did the Church begin?

In my opinion, Adam was the first member of the Lord's Church in time.

Am I on the right track?

This is the direction my Priest was talking about, but even a bit more "radical". It began with the first noetic creature, material or otherwise. So if your view holds that the creation of the orders of immaterial creatures preceded man, then the Church began then.

He expounded on it a bit, because I gave him my typical "I think you are full of it look". Furrowed brow with a smirk.

Interestingly, the sources he gave and how he explained it didn't resort to any sort "ontological" Church beginning then in light of Pentecost, but that, as you say, in time, the Church began with the creation of the first noetic creature.

EDIT: Maybe this is old hat to many of you, but I had never heard of such an idea.

I've always kind of thought it intuitively, so it is nice to see someone with some theological credentials saying it.
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« Reply #101 on: July 14, 2011, 08:33:16 PM »


The question, I suggest you ask people in these situations is simply when did the "Church" begin. The Church Fathers have some interesting ideas on it.

But they supported such evil things as iconography, so I don't know what kind of help they would be in this instance.

Liora

When did the Church begin?

In my opinion, Adam was the first member of the Lord's Church in time.

Am I on the right track?

This is the direction my Priest was talking about, but even a bit more "radical". It began with the first noetic creature, material or otherwise. So if your view holds that the creation of the orders of immaterial creatures preceded man, then the Church began then.

He expounded on it a bit, because I gave him my typical "I think you are full of it look". Furrowed brow with a smirk.

Interestingly, the sources he gave and how he explained it didn't resort to any sort "ontological" Church beginning then in light of Pentecost, but that, as you say, in time, the Church began with the creation of the first noetic creature.

EDIT: Maybe this is old hat to many of you, but I had never heard of such an idea.

I've always kind of thought it intuitively, so it is nice to see someone with some theological credentials saying it.

I am writing a note to revisit the materials with my Priest that he was sourcing when the time is appropriate and let you know.
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« Reply #102 on: July 14, 2011, 09:12:13 PM »

Muy interestante. If that is the case, yeshuaisiam is kinda blanked, then.
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« Reply #103 on: July 14, 2011, 09:12:23 PM »

It is an interesting view that seems to make some sense, but Orthonorm, you're not the only one who hadn't been knowledgeable about it.  Until a couple of months ago, I'm not sure I'd ever even heard of it.  And I've still never really had a full explanation of it.
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« Reply #104 on: July 14, 2011, 09:25:20 PM »

Muy interestante. If that is the case, yeshuaisiam is kinda blanked, then.

Indeed. If the Church was the Church when the first of the angelic powers was created, when Adam first drew breath or when Moses received the tablets of the Law, this whole theological role playing game of trying to recreate the New Testament (only with guitars and blue jeans) is doomed to failure and rightly so.
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« Reply #105 on: July 14, 2011, 09:30:13 PM »

This is the direction my Priest was talking about, but even a bit more "radical". It began with the first noetic creature, material or otherwise. So if your view holds that the creation of the orders of immaterial creatures preceded man, then the Church began then.

He expounded on it a bit, because I gave him my typical "I think you are full of it look". Furrowed brow with a smirk.

Interestingly, the sources he gave and how he explained it didn't resort to any sort "ontological" Church beginning then in light of Pentecost, but that, as you say, in time, the Church began with the creation of the first noetic creature.

EDIT: Maybe this is old hat to many of you, but I had never heard of such an idea.

From The Mind of the Orthodox Church by Metropolitan Hierotheos of Nafpaktos
Quote
It is a teaching of the holy Fathers that with the creation of the angels we have the emergence of the first Church. And it can be seen in the writings of the Fathers of the Church that the angels too are members of the Church. Moreover, God the Father is the creator of "all things visible and invisible". Among the invisible are listed the angels, who sing in praise of God. In the book of Job this witness is preserved: "when the stars were born all the angels in a loud voice sang in praise of me" (Job 38,7). Thus, before the creation of the sensible world there were angels, who sang in praise of God for the creation. And, to be sure, this means that the angels were the first to be created by God.
Read more: http://www.pelagia.org/htm/b12.en.the_mind_of_the_orthodox_church.01.htm#c3
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« Reply #106 on: July 14, 2011, 09:37:47 PM »

My understanding is that the Church as the institutional Body of Christ empowered by the Holy Spirit began on Pentecost, but as the "ecclesia" or those "called out" by God, it pretty much covers all of creation because it uncludes all the "elect" that God foreknew. This includes everyone (not everyone in a sense of "universal salvation" but everyone who is "chosen" frome the many who are "called") from the angels (we call them "agios" or "holy" or "saint") to the OT righteous (including Adam and Eve) to those who followed the "law unto themselves" to those who are baptized into Christ and receive the Holy Spirit and persevere in faith "enduring to the end".

I also hadn't put much thought into it until Pentecost last year when I saw a quote from one of the saints in a church bulletin pointing to the nature of the Church as incuding all of God's "elect", which includes even the holy angels.
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« Reply #107 on: July 14, 2011, 09:40:38 PM »

That's true. If we believe that God foreknew everything in the sense that you're speaking of, we can argue that the Church started at the beginning, the very beginning.
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« Reply #108 on: July 15, 2011, 01:38:50 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Also, in some contexts, 'Master' can mean 'Teacher.'

Just throwing that out there.  Smiley

Rabbi means teacher too.

We are not supposed to call anybody these.   God told us so.
On what authority do we have it that Jesus is God?

Yeshua said that he was God.

"Before Abraham was born I AM"
But who was it that recorded that statement? HINT: He was also an apostle.

Yes, John was an Apostle.  The beloved.

Who was it that said "Call no man rabbi, father, or master"?  HINT: He was part of the Trinity.
Who calls people "Father and Master"?  HINT: It's a church that claims its the one true church.

Who washed your feet last in your church as God commanded?
Who's hand do you venerate as a non-equal brethren?
When is the last time you bishop washed your feet as a brother?
When was the last time you kissed up to your bishop as if he was something overwhelmingly special?

Which apostle venerated images of the likeness of things on heaven and earth?
Which church plays like your veneration is like "beaming up" your veneration to the person "represented"?
What did God tell you not to make in the 1st commandment?
What is an iconostasis and what apostle did that?
What "father" do you confess your sins to?  Or do you to it to "one another" as commanded?
When you pray before meals do you thank God in your prayer as taught by God?
Which table of oblation did Christ use again in the last supper?
When did Christ or any apostle venerate Mary?

You people act as though I'm nuts.  

I'm not the one kissing paint and wood that was "blessed" by a "father" bowing and crossing myself thinking it makes any difference.   I'm just here telling you the iconostasis did NOT exist, nor the structure of the church as you know it to the original apostles.

I'm here saying the orignal apostles are our brethren, and that's how God set it up.

It is my firm belief that Eastern Orthodoxy is merely a dogma laced morph of the beautiful early church that once existed.   Just because you call these guys saints (such as James) and label him a patriarch, doesn't mean that's really what he was.  He was our brother, our brethren.

All this fluff is just a bunch of OCD superstition of the once beautiful church that existed.  

I mean.. ya know... Everybody has a halo.  Uh huh....

Early Christianity was a lot more Jewish than most of you can imagine.  There was no

1) Iconostasis.
2) Veneration of hands.
3) Worries of apostolic succession.
4) 80,000 pieces of dogma and procedure.
5) Communion was more of a passover meal, not some huge drawn out blessing in a consecrated altar behind an iconostasis with byzantine king garb.


If I'm wrong show me of the iconostasis in EARLY Christianity. 100-200 A.D.
If I'm wrong show me where everybody venerated icons in EARLY Christianity.
If I'm wrong show me all of the extreme dogma in EARLY Christianity.
If I'm wrong show me where confession was to a church "father" in EARLY Christianity.

So basically pipe out all the excuses and explanations.

The explanations to my questions are "The church evolved, and we kiss wood & paint because of...."
Too many excuses.  Too many explanations.   Even the "Patriarchs" are in ecumenism, which slaps Eastern Orthodox tradition in the face.  But people make excuses and have explanations for that.

So explain to me again.

When GOD - not apostles - but GOD - yes  YHWH, Yeshua, and the Holy Spirit says:
1) Call no man FATHER
2) Call no man Rabbi
3) Call no man MASTER

Why do the Eastern Orthodox Christians say:  But because.... and this... and that.....  this is why.... and "I'm messing with Texas"... and "You are ignorant".......  

The bottom line is you are disobeying Yeshua, your God.   He said NOT TO do it.   No matter what theologian, priest, or church elder has made excuses for to disobey him.

I'm having trouble understanding the logic of many here.   No means no.  Not means not.  Do not means "Do not".

GOD the top of all authority said:  "DO NOT"

You say: "We can because so and so, and this and that".

So are you going to continue to DO what God said "DO NOT" to?



Brother, do you honestly expect to come into an Orthodox forum and continually and rudely scathe Orthodoxy and the Holy Tradition and expect any of us to take you any more seriously then we already have? Lord have His Mercy are you that dense?  Calling us crazy for our adherence to the Holy Tradition is not very polite fellowship, I expect better from you as I usually enjoy your input to these discussions.  However, if you insist on being so vitriolic, well then that speaks for itself unfortunately Sad

I will only say this and reiterate it yet again:

Where does God say such things literally and personally? The Scriptures are a book, paper, that is all.  Sorry, they are not in themselves perfect nor Divine.  Rather, God Himself, in His Godhead, is perfect and true, and God Himself is Omnipotent well and beyond the limits of any kind of Scriptures or interpretations.  In Orthodox, we don't rely on Sola Scripture or to legalistically on the Tradition, instead we turn to God in our hearts directly.  Its not the Bible that speaks for God, God Himself is fully able to speak for Himself in the here and now.  So please, stop bible thumping on us, we are just ontologically on a different playing field in this regard to "listening to God"

We Commune directly with "Yehshua" and He speaks to us in our Church, not just the Scriptures, please stop insulting us by pretending He only speaks to you and your personalized interpretations of the Scriptures Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie

I appreciate that you enjoy my input on most posts, so please do not judge me according to one.

I have a vast history in the Eastern Orthodox church, and have found that since the time of Nicea, it has strayed far from "tradition".  Perhaps "tradition of _____".  

Nobody will argue that the early Christians did not use an iconostasis for example.  We must always ask ourselves "why do we need it"?   We really don't.  

My perception of Orthodoxy has changed both because of the irony in the church (ecumenism) and also because I have done a lot of research on the Early Christians.  

I have looked for the fruit all over, and the best examples I can find were the anabaptists who actually stick to many of the early traditions of Christianity.   The  messianic Jews make sense as well, but the lessons and depths of both of those are cast out of Eastern Orthodoxy because "Eastern Orthodoxy is the true church".   It's a propaganda ploy of sorts.   "Our church is perfect".   (Despite schisms, fights, separations, even you are Oriental Orthodox --- Why?)

Many respond with hostility.  Perhaps both in frustration and irritation.  Many don't want to understand the clarity of God.  So several tactics are diverted and used against somebody when criticizing.  
1) Being Naive
2) Personal attacks
3) Ridicule
4) Troll tactics (look at a former post "I am messing with Texas")

The issue at hand is very direct.  People are making excuses for disobeying God.  Their excuses are:
1) The other apostles & Paul did it
2) "Father doesn't mean Father"
3) "Master doesn't mean Master"
4) Bringing incorrect translations of the Greek

I'm just asking a very simple and plain question.  If you erase everything else that was said in this forum or post.

God said (note GOD SAID) "Do not call ANY man Rabbi, Father, or Master".

The Eastern Orthodox call their priests "Father" and Bishops "Master".

When I see the excuses and explanations it sounds like what my oldest kids do.    

For example:  I told my oldest son "Don't play in the creek, it's a flash flood zone and storms from miles away can flood it instantly".  Son disobeys and plays in the creek.  I ask him "Why did you play in the creek when I told you not to".   Son says "My friend Jimmy was down there and he had an older brother who is 15 and we were fine".  

Is this disobedience or an explanation of why it was okay?

That's what I'm hearing & reading.

"The apostles wrote it so its okay"
"It's tradition so its fine"
"Father doesn't mean Father"

GOD said "Do NOT call any man Rabbi, Father, or Master".   What excuses are we going to give God for doing it anyway?
GOD said You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them. (Ex 20:2-5; cf. Deut 5:6-9)


Is this not blatant disobedience?  Or is there an excuse, explanation, or reason that they wish to give God?
God said "DON'T DO IT!!!"

Look they are doing it!  But they'll tell you they aren't but they really are!

Just like when we call priests "Father" and Bishops "Master".   It's complete disobedience to God!  

I'm bewildered and stumped when people can't see past the 10,000 page explanation and just SEE IT for what IS HAPPENING!

Just look at the commandment, and look at the picture!  All the clergy are bowing to the icons!  They are images in the likeness of things in heaven!

But you did ask a good question.  What am I doing on an Orthodox Forum.

The forum is called "Orthodox Christianity dot net".   Not "Eastern Orthodox Christianity" or "Oriental Orthodox Christianity".

I seek Orthodox Christianity.  I seek the right way (by definition).

God Bless.
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« Reply #109 on: July 15, 2011, 01:43:47 AM »

I seek Orthodox Christianity.  I seek the right way (by definition).
You think you're going to find it, though, when you're the one setting all the rules regarding what IS Orthodox? You don't want orthodoxy; you want a Christianity that fits the image you've already made. That, my friend, is probably a much worse graven image than any icon we can make.

BTW, you still haven't engaged any of the counter-arguments against your position. Ridiculing them often enough isn't going to make them ridiculous.
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« Reply #110 on: July 15, 2011, 05:14:06 AM »

The issue at hand is very direct.  People are making excuses for disobeying God.  Their excuses are:
3) "Master doesn't mean Master"
4) Bringing incorrect translations of the Greek

In the words of Bubba's mother: "Are you crazy, or just plain stupid?"

You are the one making excuses for your distortion of God's words by totally ignoring the Greek of the Bible and basing yourself entirely on English translation. Seeking the Truth by asking questions and being critical is entirely honourable, but refusing to reason with those you have criticised/enquired of is not.
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« Reply #111 on: July 15, 2011, 05:29:59 AM »

GOD said You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them. (Ex 20:2-5; cf. Deut 5:6-9)


Is this not blatant disobedience?  Or is there an excuse, explanation, or reason that they wish to give God?

If you just read a few pages beyond your single verse - this is called 'taking into consideration the context of the verse', worth trying - and you'll see the answer.

And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat. Exodus 25:18

Moreover thou shalt make the tabernacle with ten curtains of fine twined linen, and blue, and purple, and scarlet: with cherubims of cunning work shalt thou make them. Exodus 26:1-3

And the word of the LORD came to Solomon, saying, Concerning this house which thou art in building, if thou wilt walk in my statutes, and execute my judgments, and keep all my commandments to walk in them; then will I perform my word with thee, which I spake unto David thy father: And I will dwell among the children of Israel, and will not forsake my people Israel. So Solomon built the house, and finished it...And he carved all the walls of the house round about with carved figures of cherubims and palm trees and open flowers, within and without. 3 Kingdoms (1 Kings) 6:12-14, 29.

So clearly, God Himself commanded people to 'disobediently' fill their house of worship with images of things both in heaven and on earth.

As for the bowing, we do not bow to paint and wood, but to the person depicted upon it. God says time and again in the Scriptures that He was to be found between the two (graven images of) Cherubim. When Jews bowed in prayer towards the Mercy Seat, did they bow to the gold cherubim or to the God whose presence they symbolised?
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« Reply #112 on: July 15, 2011, 09:35:28 AM »

My perception of Orthodoxy has changed both because of the irony in the church (ecumenism) and also because I have done a lot of research on the Early Christians.  

I have looked for the fruit all over, and the best examples I can find were the anabaptists who actually stick to many of the early traditions of Christianity.   The  messianic Jews make sense as well....
So what keeps you from joining one of these groups?
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« Reply #113 on: July 15, 2011, 11:58:44 AM »

You say we kiss hands and bow and that it is so wrong but you have to put it in context. If you were to meet the President you would talk and act in a certain way showing respect to him or to the office. In the time that Christianity flourished the way you showed respect to authority was bowing and kissing. We have just kept the mechanics from back then. It is not different. You just have such the American mindset that you don't show respect to anyone and that no one is "above" you in a position of authority. I find many Protestants (including myself at one point) have issues with accepting authority since they live in such an individualistic society. Christ also said to act like a guest everywhere you go. When you're a guest you so great honor and respect to those around you. We just do it how they did it in antiquity rather than how Americans do it now.
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« Reply #114 on: July 15, 2011, 12:53:28 PM »

The issue at hand is very direct.  People are making excuses for disobeying God.  Their excuses are:
3) "Master doesn't mean Master"
4) Bringing incorrect translations of the Greek

In the words of Bubba's mother: "Are you crazy, or just plain stupid?"

You are the one making excuses for your distortion of God's words by totally ignoring the Greek of the Bible and basing yourself entirely on English translation. Seeking the Truth by asking questions and being critical is entirely honourable, but refusing to reason with those you have criticised/enquired of is not.

You need to re-read the Greek.  Like I said.
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« Reply #115 on: July 15, 2011, 12:53:28 PM »

I seek Orthodox Christianity.  I seek the right way (by definition).
You think you're going to find it, though, when you're the one setting all the rules regarding what IS Orthodox? You don't want orthodoxy; you want a Christianity that fits the image you've already made. That, my friend, is probably a much worse graven image than any icon we can make.

BTW, you still haven't engaged any of the counter-arguments against your position. Ridiculing them often enough isn't going to make them ridiculous.

So you'd rather trust someone that defines Orthodoxy like a "saint" who had a son who slept with his on mom?  Then the saint put his own son & wife to death?  I mean can somebody say "Jerry Springer on steroids"?

Gee stinks that I go off my own intuition being a loyal husband and a parent to 5 children.  :OP
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« Reply #116 on: July 15, 2011, 12:53:29 PM »

Yeshuaism, I am hereby considering you a troll until you address at least one of the arguments in my posts.  Consequently, until this happens,  I will ignore every post of yours anywhere on the board.  This means any question you ask or comments on any post of mine in any thread.  I just wanted to give you fair warning so you don't think I am unable to answer your claims or questions or concerns with any of my posts, in the future.

Sorry, somehow I got myself moderated and my posts don't appear after I type.  Gotta peck & choose.
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« Reply #117 on: July 15, 2011, 12:53:29 PM »

GOD said You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them. (Ex 20:2-5; cf. Deut 5:6-9)


Is this not blatant disobedience?  Or is there an excuse, explanation, or reason that they wish to give God?

If you just read a few pages beyond your single verse - this is called 'taking into consideration the context of the verse', worth trying - and you'll see the answer.

And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat. Exodus 25:18

Moreover thou shalt make the tabernacle with ten curtains of fine twined linen, and blue, and purple, and scarlet: with cherubims of cunning work shalt thou make them. Exodus 26:1-3

And the word of the LORD came to Solomon, saying, Concerning this house which thou art in building, if thou wilt walk in my statutes, and execute my judgments, and keep all my commandments to walk in them; then will I perform my word with thee, which I spake unto David thy father: And I will dwell among the children of Israel, and will not forsake my people Israel. So Solomon built the house, and finished it...And he carved all the walls of the house round about with carved figures of cherubims and palm trees and open flowers, within and without. 3 Kingdoms (1 Kings) 6:12-14, 29.

So clearly, God Himself commanded people to 'disobediently' fill their house of worship with images of things both in heaven and on earth.

As for the bowing, we do not bow to paint and wood, but to the person depicted upon it. God says time and again in the Scriptures that He was to be found between the two (graven images of) Cherubim. When Jews bowed in prayer towards the Mercy Seat, did they bow to the gold cherubim or to the God whose presence they symbolised?

This is what I'm talking about, and you call me stupid over it.

God said do not make an image right?
God said you can make an image of a cherubim right?

So you take that and say "Ah, okay, now we can make images of all of it". ??

Solomon carved images of cherubims.

I don't see why this is thought that you can make images of everything now.

God was laying out his law.  Cherubims OKAY he specified them.

Jesus, Constantine, Helena, John, Mary, The Trinity, Etc. etc. etc. and etc.   Where were those specified again?
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« Reply #118 on: July 15, 2011, 12:53:29 PM »

My perception of Orthodoxy has changed both because of the irony in the church (ecumenism) and also because I have done a lot of research on the Early Christians.  

I have looked for the fruit all over, and the best examples I can find were the anabaptists who actually stick to many of the early traditions of Christianity.   The  messianic Jews make sense as well....
So what keeps you from joining one of these groups?

We are in transition.   We have many Mennonite and Amish friends.   Their actions heavily reflect that of early Christians.  I'm very stumped when I see them of their vast yet simplistic knowledge of Christianity.   The Ordnungs kind of hold us back, but the faith & lifestyle in many parts are extremely Christian.

Hutterites are amazing as well.   Full communal living (yes the laymen not just monks/nuns) as the early Christians lived.
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« Reply #119 on: July 15, 2011, 01:08:26 PM »

Just because our brethren did it doesn't mean we should.

Yes it does.

Be ye imitators of me, even as I also am of Christ.
–St Paul, 1 Corinthians 11:1
[/quote]

Just because all your friends jump off a bridge does not mean that you have to as well.

Just because some of the apostles said "father" does not make it right.  Remember there were also apostles that denied Christ, and Paul murdered Christians in cold blood. [/quote]

But the Holy Ghost who is, after all, responsible for every word of Scripture does not permit them to advise us to deny Him or to murder each other! Yet Paul does advise us to imitate him. How can a direct instruction from an Apostle in a document inspired by the Lord, the Giver of Life, not be life-giving?

Margaret

(sorry, messed up the quote section)
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« Reply #120 on: July 15, 2011, 01:09:07 PM »

I seek Orthodox Christianity.  I seek the right way (by definition).
You think you're going to find it, though, when you're the one setting all the rules regarding what IS Orthodox? You don't want orthodoxy; you want a Christianity that fits the image you've already made. That, my friend, is probably a much worse graven image than any icon we can make.

BTW, you still haven't engaged any of the counter-arguments against your position. Ridiculing them often enough isn't going to make them ridiculous.

So you'd rather trust someone that defines Orthodoxy like a "saint" who had a son who slept with his on mom?  Then the saint put his own son & wife to death?  I mean can somebody say "Jerry Springer on steroids"?

Gee stinks that I go off my own intuition being a loyal husband and a parent to 5 children.  :OP
Dodging the rebuttal with such a gross reductio ad absurdum is no way to engage a rebuttal of your position.

How about, for instance, my argument that rejection of the teaching of the Apostle Paul is rejection of Christ Himself?
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« Reply #121 on: July 15, 2011, 01:19:48 PM »

GOD said You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them. (Ex 20:2-5; cf. Deut 5:6-9)


Is this not blatant disobedience?  Or is there an excuse, explanation, or reason that they wish to give God?

If you just read a few pages beyond your single verse - this is called 'taking into consideration the context of the verse', worth trying - and you'll see the answer.

And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat. Exodus 25:18

Moreover thou shalt make the tabernacle with ten curtains of fine twined linen, and blue, and purple, and scarlet: with cherubims of cunning work shalt thou make them. Exodus 26:1-3

And the word of the LORD came to Solomon, saying, Concerning this house which thou art in building, if thou wilt walk in my statutes, and execute my judgments, and keep all my commandments to walk in them; then will I perform my word with thee, which I spake unto David thy father: And I will dwell among the children of Israel, and will not forsake my people Israel. So Solomon built the house, and finished it...And he carved all the walls of the house round about with carved figures of cherubims and palm trees and open flowers, within and without. 3 Kingdoms (1 Kings) 6:12-14, 29.

So clearly, God Himself commanded people to 'disobediently' fill their house of worship with images of things both in heaven and on earth.

As for the bowing, we do not bow to paint and wood, but to the person depicted upon it. God says time and again in the Scriptures that He was to be found between the two (graven images of) Cherubim. When Jews bowed in prayer towards the Mercy Seat, did they bow to the gold cherubim or to the God whose presence they symbolised?

This is what I'm talking about, and you call me stupid over it.

God said do not make an image right?
God said you can make an image of a cherubim right?

So you take that and say "Ah, okay, now we can make images of all of it". ??

Solomon carved images of cherubims.

I don't see why this is thought that you can make images of everything now.

God was laying out his law.  Cherubims OKAY he specified them.

Jesus, Constantine, Helena, John, Mary, The Trinity, Etc. etc. etc. and etc.   Where were those specified again?

So if Jesus were around now it would be a sin to take and develop a picture of him? They didn't have cameras so they painted. Jesus was the ultimate image of God on earth and we are just representing that.
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« Reply #122 on: July 15, 2011, 01:25:12 PM »

This thread resembles one of Alfreds more and more each day. I love how those people who are not in the Church think they can accurately say how the Church was back in the day.
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« Reply #123 on: July 15, 2011, 01:28:43 PM »

If you don't think that the Amish and Mennonite church doesn't have serious issues, you're going to have a problem.

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« Reply #124 on: July 15, 2011, 02:23:19 PM »

You need to re-read the Greek.  Like I said.

Why don't you post whatever Greek text you're basing your argument on to prove your point?

God said do not make an image right?
God said you can make an image of a cherubim right?

So you take that and say "Ah, okay, now we can make images of all of it". ??

Solomon carved images of cherubims.

I don't see why this is thought that you can make images of everything now.

God was laying out his law.  Cherubims OKAY he specified them.

Jesus, Constantine, Helena, John, Mary, The Trinity, Etc. etc. etc. and etc.   Where were those specified again?

God said you shouldn't make an image of anything on heaven or on earth. If taken literally, that would mean a prohibition on anything: angels, humans, mammals, reptiles, insects, trees, flowers, rivers, mountains, etc. etc. In others words, anything but abstract art would be a no no - a la what you find among very strict Muslims who limit themselves to geometric shapes, caligraphy, etc.

When you read on, you see God commanding the depicting of Cherubim, and blessing Solomon's depictions of trees and flowers. No explanation is given for these depictions of things on both heaven and earth, there is no "you shalt not make an image of...except", it's just taken for granted that these are permissible.

Rather than suggesting that cherubim, snakes, palms and flowers are some sort of weird exception to the rule, what this shows is that the rule applies to a particular kind of imagery. Indeed, the "and bow down to it" part makes it quite clear that what is being prohibited is not the making of imagery in general, but the manufacturing of idols for the purposes of worship. It was a command to combat those who "changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things...and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever" (Rom 1:23,25).

This becomes abundantly clear when God commands Moses to make an image of a snake, and even works miracles of healing through it, but the second that image becomes an image of worship He orders it to be destroyed.
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« Reply #125 on: July 15, 2011, 02:36:02 PM »

GOD said "Do NOT call any man Rabbi, Father, or Master".
What about all the times GOD called men "Father"? (Click here to see them.)

Funny that God doesn't obey his own rules, in your world.

Sorry, somehow I got myself moderated and my posts don't appear after I type.  Gotta peck & choose.

Funny you never happen to choose the arguments that you can't refute. And incidentally, you are a troll, because (with great difficulty, no doubt) you somehow managed to reply to James' post but didn't respond to his argument.
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« Reply #126 on: July 15, 2011, 02:42:02 PM »

This thread resembles one of Alfreds more and more each day. I love how those people who are not in the Church think they can accurately say how the Church was back in the day.

Agreed. At times like these, I think of the prayer before Communion, "I will not speak of thy mysteries to thine enemies", and regret getting involved.
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« Reply #127 on: July 15, 2011, 04:42:24 PM »

I seek Orthodox Christianity.  I seek the right way (by definition).
You think you're going to find it, though, when you're the one setting all the rules regarding what IS Orthodox? You don't want orthodoxy; you want a Christianity that fits the image you've already made. That, my friend, is probably a much worse graven image than any icon we can make.

BTW, you still haven't engaged any of the counter-arguments against your position. Ridiculing them often enough isn't going to make them ridiculous.

So you'd rather trust someone that defines Orthodoxy like a "saint" who had a son who slept with his on mom?  Then the saint put his own son & wife to death?  I mean can somebody say "Jerry Springer on steroids"?

Gee stinks that I go off my own intuition being a loyal husband and a parent to 5 children.  :OP
Dodging the rebuttal with such a gross reductio ad absurdum is no way to engage a rebuttal of your position.

How about, for instance, my argument that rejection of the teaching of the Apostle Paul is rejection of Christ Himself?

How about my argument about when did God say that rejecting anything of the Apostle Paul was rejecting Christ?
Perhaps we should follow Paul's lead at first and start murdering Christians?
Face it, that's made up nonsense.

Yeshua never gave Paul that type of authority, of course, unless written by Paul.
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« Reply #128 on: July 15, 2011, 04:42:24 PM »

I seek Orthodox Christianity.  I seek the right way (by definition).
You think you're going to find it, though, when you're the one setting all the rules regarding what IS Orthodox? You don't want orthodoxy; you want a Christianity that fits the image you've already made. That, my friend, is probably a much worse graven image than any icon we can make.

BTW, you still haven't engaged any of the counter-arguments against your position. Ridiculing them often enough isn't going to make them ridiculous.

So you'd rather trust someone that defines Orthodoxy like a "saint" who had a son who slept with his on mom?  Then the saint put his own son & wife to death?  I mean can somebody say "Jerry Springer on steroids"?

Gee stinks that I go off my own intuition being a loyal husband and a parent to 5 children.  :OP
Dodging the rebuttal with such a gross reductio ad absurdum is no way to engage a rebuttal of your position.

How about, for instance, my argument that rejection of the teaching of the Apostle Paul is rejection of Christ Himself?

By the way, I wasn't dodging a rebuttal.   You said "when you're the one setting all the rules regarding what IS Orthodox?".

Also when you say reductio ad absurdum, you are using it in an incorrect context.   If you don't know the "saint" I'm referring to, you need to look up all that attended Nicea.

You basically are saying I am defining what is Orthodox which is not true.  The early Christian practices (hundreds of years before Nicea) define what is Orthodox, as well as God defines what is Orthodox.

Also, I am making a sarcastic comeback to your logic.  You de-emphasize me as if I couldn't understand what original Christianity is, while you follow the structured church that had a saint that had a son that slept with his own wife and he put both of them to death. Sounds like a good Christian to follow...  Of course, no not me, a loyal husband and father to 5 kids, no way I could be right.   

It's like "Your logic is all stupid, and so is your research because I have my church".   I'm saying "Your church has a major saint that was such a bad parent and husband that his own son had sex with his wife - he was such a saint he executed both of them".   Or did you read Constantine's Sword?

To basically say my reasoning has indirect proof is ridiculous.

Look at the photo.  They aren't bowing to heaven to the saints.  They are bowing to paint & wood in the likeness of something in heaven.  Do you see all the candles.. Good grief it's not hard to see that they are just making excuses to disobey God.

Just look at it.  BOWING down to IMAGES to things of the LIKENESS of ones in HEAVEN!!

But no, my Reductio ad absurdum screwed up reasoning has indirect proof. ?     What?  How about this - prove to me they are bowing to the people in heaven and not paint an wood.   All I see is they are in a circle of sorts bowing with icons in the middle.

"Oh but I'm not bowing to the icon of course, I'm bowing to the person really represented in the image".
"Oh I'm not kissing the icon, I'm kissing the person in the image"

When was the last time an icon kissed you back, was warm, or soft like a brother or sister?

And my arguments are messed up?  It's paint and wood, and complete disobedience to God.
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« Reply #129 on: July 15, 2011, 04:42:24 PM »

GOD said You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them. (Ex 20:2-5; cf. Deut 5:6-9)


Is this not blatant disobedience?  Or is there an excuse, explanation, or reason that they wish to give God?

If you just read a few pages beyond your single verse - this is called 'taking into consideration the context of the verse', worth trying - and you'll see the answer.

And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat. Exodus 25:18

Moreover thou shalt make the tabernacle with ten curtains of fine twined linen, and blue, and purple, and scarlet: with cherubims of cunning work shalt thou make them. Exodus 26:1-3

And the word of the LORD came to Solomon, saying, Concerning this house which thou art in building, if thou wilt walk in my statutes, and execute my judgments, and keep all my commandments to walk in them; then will I perform my word with thee, which I spake unto David thy father: And I will dwell among the children of Israel, and will not forsake my people Israel. So Solomon built the house, and finished it...And he carved all the walls of the house round about with carved figures of cherubims and palm trees and open flowers, within and without. 3 Kingdoms (1 Kings) 6:12-14, 29.

So clearly, God Himself commanded people to 'disobediently' fill their house of worship with images of things both in heaven and on earth.

As for the bowing, we do not bow to paint and wood, but to the person depicted upon it. God says time and again in the Scriptures that He was to be found between the two (graven images of) Cherubim. When Jews bowed in prayer towards the Mercy Seat, did they bow to the gold cherubim or to the God whose presence they symbolised?

This is what I'm talking about, and you call me stupid over it.

God said do not make an image right?
God said you can make an image of a cherubim right?

So you take that and say "Ah, okay, now we can make images of all of it". ??

Solomon carved images of cherubims.

I don't see why this is thought that you can make images of everything now.

God was laying out his law.  Cherubims OKAY he specified them.

Jesus, Constantine, Helena, John, Mary, The Trinity, Etc. etc. etc. and etc.   Where were those specified again?

So if Jesus were around now it would be a sin to take and develop a picture of him? They didn't have cameras so they painted. Jesus was the ultimate image of God on earth and we are just representing that.

GOD said You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them. (Ex 20:2-5; cf. Deut 5:6-9)

There's a reason the group that I am finding to be more like the original Christians does not have photographs taken.  The Amish turn away from the cameras.

Yes I do believe that it would be a sin to photograph Yeshua today and develop a picture of him.  But of course, I don't know for a fact.  Because if he was around on Earth today in the flesh, I would be all ears. 
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« Reply #130 on: July 15, 2011, 04:42:24 PM »

You say we kiss hands and bow and that it is so wrong but you have to put it in context. If you were to meet the President you would talk and act in a certain way showing respect to him or to the office. In the time that Christianity flourished the way you showed respect to authority was bowing and kissing. We have just kept the mechanics from back then. It is not different. You just have such the American mindset that you don't show respect to anyone and that no one is "above" you in a position of authority. I find many Protestants (including myself at one point) have issues with accepting authority since they live in such an individualistic society. Christ also said to act like a guest everywhere you go. When you're a guest you so great honor and respect to those around you. We just do it how they did it in antiquity rather than how Americans do it now.

God taught us that he is the authority.

That is the point of the thread.  Nobody is above you.  We are not to call ANY MAN Rabbi, Father, or MASTER.

We are all BRETHREN.   This is directly said from God.

To turn around and say "but this... but that... he said this... he said that.... tradition..." is justifying disobedience to directly what Yeshua our God said.   Nobody is above us but God.   We are all Brethren.   God said it himself.
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« Reply #131 on: July 15, 2011, 04:53:02 PM »

This thread resembles one of Alfreds more and more each day. I love how those people who are not in the Church think they can accurately say how the Church was back in the day.

If you are referring to me,

I've been a part of the Eastern Orthodox church almost all my life
I've lived at St. Vladimir's seminary in New York
I've traveled all over the world to see Orthodoxy including Mt. Athos

I've been part of the OCA and ROCOR for many years.  
I've seen all kinds of clergy, monasteries, and churches.

But also an outsider can answer these questions.  They can simply do their research.
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« Reply #132 on: July 15, 2011, 04:56:28 PM »

If you don't think that the Amish and Mennonite church doesn't have serious issues, you're going to have a problem.

Every large church body has it's issues.

It's "What it is supposed to be" that is important.

I don't criticize issues in the EO church such as sex abuse scandals etc.  Those are just sick people and of course it is not supposed to be like that.  Same thing goes for the Anabaptist churches.  There are always sick people.

The thing I criticize is what the church IS supposed to do and not.  I see many priests in that photo bowing to paint and wood.  In a circular pattern.  No way are they bowing to the person in heaven.
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« Reply #133 on: July 15, 2011, 05:00:25 PM »

You need to re-read the Greek.  Like I said.

Why don't you post whatever Greek text you're basing your argument on to prove your point?

God said do not make an image right?
God said you can make an image of a cherubim right?

So you take that and say "Ah, okay, now we can make images of all of it". ??

Solomon carved images of cherubims.

I don't see why this is thought that you can make images of everything now.

God was laying out his law.  Cherubims OKAY he specified them.

Jesus, Constantine, Helena, John, Mary, The Trinity, Etc. etc. etc. and etc.   Where were those specified again?

God said you shouldn't make an image of anything on heaven or on earth. If taken literally, that would mean a prohibition on anything: angels, humans, mammals, reptiles, insects, trees, flowers, rivers, mountains, etc. etc. In others words, anything but abstract art would be a no no - a la what you find among very strict Muslims who limit themselves to geometric shapes, caligraphy, etc.

When you read on, you see God commanding the depicting of Cherubim, and blessing Solomon's depictions of trees and flowers. No explanation is given for these depictions of things on both heaven and earth, there is no "you shalt not make an image of...except", it's just taken for granted that these are permissible.

Rather than suggesting that cherubim, snakes, palms and flowers are some sort of weird exception to the rule, what this shows is that the rule applies to a particular kind of imagery. Indeed, the "and bow down to it" part makes it quite clear that what is being prohibited is not the making of imagery in general, but the manufacturing of idols for the purposes of worship. It was a command to combat those who "changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things...and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever" (Rom 1:23,25).

This becomes abundantly clear when God commands Moses to make an image of a snake, and even works miracles of healing through it, but the second that image becomes an image of worship He orders it to be destroyed.

Wrong.  Look up the word "likeness" in Hebrew.  God also gave special permission for the Cherubim.   I don't know if I can post any Jewish information here about the likeness, things haven't gone so well for me in the past when I give out factual Jewish info.

The Greek is unimportant right now.  That's another topic and diverts sorry I'll get off it.

Do you bow and touch the floor saying "Master Bless"?  If you do you are calling him "Master".
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« Reply #134 on: July 15, 2011, 05:03:05 PM »

GOD said "Do NOT call any man Rabbi, Father, or Master".
What about all the times GOD called men "Father"? (Click here to see them.)

Funny that God doesn't obey his own rules, in your world.

Sorry, somehow I got myself moderated and my posts don't appear after I type.  Gotta peck & choose.

Funny you never happen to choose the arguments that you can't refute. And incidentally, you are a troll, because (with great difficulty, no doubt) you somehow managed to reply to James' post but didn't respond to his argument.

What about GOD CAN DO WHATEVER HE WANTS.
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« Reply #135 on: July 15, 2011, 05:18:35 PM »

This thread resembles one of Alfreds more and more each day. I love how those people who are not in the Church think they can accurately say how the Church was back in the day.

Agreed. At times like these, I think of the prayer before Communion, "I will not speak of thy mysteries to thine enemies", and regret getting involved.

I love my enemies, and pray for those who persecute me.  
But you are my brother in Christ right?  Not my enemy.  

I mean I may be your enemy and we may disagree on dogma setup through 2000 years, but we both agree that Yeshua is the son of God who died for our sins right?

I disagree with the EO teachings that contradict what Christ said.  But that doesn't make us enemies.  Do you see what church dogma does?

Our true enemy is Lucifer, who teaches us to follow our own will rather than God's will.  It's "Do what thy wilt vs. Thy will be done".

Don't make me your enemy over some dogma setup by some dudes through 2000 years.
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« Reply #136 on: July 15, 2011, 05:18:35 PM »

This thread resembles one of Alfreds more and more each day. I love how those people who are not in the Church think they can accurately say how the Church was back in the day.

Agreed. At times like these, I think of the prayer before Communion, "I will not speak of thy mysteries to thine enemies", and regret getting involved.

Just one other thing, my last post was because I think that you dislike me as an enemy.

If you think I am God's enemy, you are very mistaken.  I've done nothing but quote God.  It's the Eastern Orthodox here who are making excuses of why they can disobey him.

Do not call any man "Rabbi, Father, Master"

I try to serve God in my life.   Don't mistake the fact that I'm saying a few things against the practices of Eastern Orthodox church that I am a sudden enemy of God.

Remember, the Eastern Orthodox church has TONS of fights in its history.   Plenty of schisms, plenty of ugliness.

Even on this board

Easter Orthodox
Oriental Orthodox
Pro-Ecumenism
Anti-Ecumenism
New Calendar
Old Calendar

Are they all enemies of God because they disagree?  please don't label me as such, even though I feel your content was more personal.
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« Reply #137 on: July 15, 2011, 07:21:20 PM »

Quote
What about GOD CAN DO WHATEVER HE WANTS

He could, but He wont. God is ultimately holy, ultimately just, and ultimately correct. So are the laws he set up. Some laws dont apply to Him directly "dont murder" as the life belongs to Him in the first place and he can take it, or command others to do so, or "bring no other Gods before me" because He is God. However that being said, if God breaks His own law that would apply to Him, like abrogating His promises when we filfilled our part according to His holy word, (a la Salvation), he would not be holy, nor just. So in a manner of speaking He holds Himself up to His own rules. Afterall, God cant abide sinfulness, because he is holy...right?


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« Reply #138 on: July 15, 2011, 07:45:22 PM »

Yeshuaisiam, you are outside of the Church, even if you were at one point part of the Church. The Arians and Nestorians were once part of the Church, but their own personal interpretaions led them astray, they did not follow the teachings of the Apostles or the Tradition of the Church. The Tradition is not something to be taken lightly, nor is the authority of the Apostle Paul, who many Church Fathers revere, early Fathers such as St. Ignatius and St. Polycarp who were both diciples of St. John.

Even disciples of the Apostle John - the disciple whom Jesus loved - admitted that St. Paul had authority!

Yes, there are divisions in the Church, but there are divisions because some men decided that they knew better than the Apostles who were appointed by Jesus Himself. That there are divisions doesn't mean that we are not the true Church, just that we are all human and prone to err. By your logic the anabaptists can not be correct since there are divisions in their church. Divisions only mean that we are human and do not submit ourselves fully to God's will, they should teach us to stop relying on our own intuitions and rely on God through the instistution He gave to us - the Church - through which we may learn to subdue our passions and reach full union with God.
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« Reply #139 on: July 15, 2011, 07:56:12 PM »

I seek Orthodox Christianity.  I seek the right way (by definition).
You think you're going to find it, though, when you're the one setting all the rules regarding what IS Orthodox? You don't want orthodoxy; you want a Christianity that fits the image you've already made. That, my friend, is probably a much worse graven image than any icon we can make.

BTW, you still haven't engaged any of the counter-arguments against your position. Ridiculing them often enough isn't going to make them ridiculous.

So you'd rather trust someone that defines Orthodoxy like a "saint" who had a son who slept with his on mom?  Then the saint put his own son & wife to death?  I mean can somebody say "Jerry Springer on steroids"?

Gee stinks that I go off my own intuition being a loyal husband and a parent to 5 children.  :OP
Dodging the rebuttal with such a gross reductio ad absurdum is no way to engage a rebuttal of your position.

How about, for instance, my argument that rejection of the teaching of the Apostle Paul is rejection of Christ Himself?

How about my argument about when did God say that rejecting anything of the Apostle Paul was rejecting Christ?
Perhaps we should follow Paul's lead at first and start murdering Christians?
Face it, that's made up nonsense.

Yeshua never gave Paul that type of authority, of course, unless written by Paul.
It's actually quite simple. Jesus made Peter the chief of the Apostles, and Peter recognized Paul as a fellow Apostle, even in his own epistles.
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« Reply #140 on: July 15, 2011, 08:23:58 PM »

This thread resembles one of Alfreds more and more each day. I love how those people who are not in the Church think they can accurately say how the Church was back in the day.

Agreed. At times like these, I think of the prayer before Communion, "I will not speak of thy mysteries to thine enemies", and regret getting involved.

I love my enemies, and pray for those who persecute me.   
But you are my brother in Christ right?  Not my enemy. 

I mean I may be your enemy and we may disagree on dogma setup through 2000 years, but we both agree that Yeshua is the son of God who died for our sins right?

I disagree with the EO teachings that contradict what Christ said.  But that doesn't make us enemies.  Do you see what church dogma does?

Our true enemy is Lucifer, who teaches us to follow our own will rather than God's will.  It's "Do what thy wilt vs. Thy will be done".

Don't make me your enemy over some dogma setup by some dudes through 2000 years.

You are not my enemy. I have no negative feelings towards you personally.

Church dogma protects the truth from being distorted. EO teachings do not contradict Christ's words because the EOC is the Body of Christ. Contradiction is impossible. If there is a contradiction, it is a misunderstanding of Christ on your part, not an error on the Church's part.

To put not too fine a point on it:

Apostles + Church Fathers + Scripture + 2000 years of practice > your opinion

When you ignore Church dogma, you are doing thy will rather than God's, because God lives in the Church and God speaks through the Church.

Considering the New Testament, the Fathers, and Church practice since the literal beginning, is overflowing with examples of men being called "father", you are wrong. Unless you are presumptuous enough to judge the Apostles (which you are, and you have), then God help you.
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« Reply #141 on: July 15, 2011, 08:27:26 PM »

Do not call any man "Rabbi, Father, Master"

The Scriptures are meaningless when interpreted outside its context, that being the Church. The Church says it does not mean what you think it means.

I try to serve God in my life.   Don't mistake the fact that I'm saying a few things against the practices of Eastern Orthodox church that I am a sudden enemy of God.

I don't know if you're an enemy of God or not. I can't see your heart. But Saul didn't think he was God's enemy when he was rejecting Church dogma.
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« Reply #142 on: July 15, 2011, 09:00:55 PM »

Wrong.  Look up the word "likeness" in Hebrew.  God also gave special permission for the Cherubim.   I don't know if I can post any Jewish information here about the likeness, things haven't gone so well for me in the past when I give out factual Jewish info.

Post it to me privately if you don't think it will go down well on the board.

Quote
The Greek is unimportant right now.  That's another topic and diverts sorry I'll get off it.

It's not unimportant. The text you quoted at the beginning of this thread was an English translation of a Greek original.

Quote
Do you bow and touch the floor saying "Master Bless"?  If you do you are calling him "Master".

I speak with my bishop in Greek, so I've never called him 'Master'. However, if I were to address him with the English word 'Master', I would not be using the word prohibited in the Gospel - in this context being a translation of the word 'despota' - but you've repeatedly chosen to ignore this, so until you respond to my actual argument I'll let the matter rest.
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« Reply #143 on: July 15, 2011, 09:03:12 PM »

This thread is the best example of unmitigated, unequivocal and absolute theological pwnage I've yet seen on this board.

Good work, dudes.
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« Reply #144 on: July 15, 2011, 09:07:17 PM »

This thread is the best example of unmitigated, unequivocal and absolute theological pwnage I've yet seen on this board.

Good work, dudes.

They have been pretty good, haven't they (I don't include myself here, as I really have not contributed to this conversation and my understanding of theology is no where near on par with the other gentlemen on this board). But I do agree that this thread has been pretty good, perhaps its all the practice everybody got during the past months dealing with Alfred, TtC, and others.
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« Reply #145 on: July 15, 2011, 09:26:41 PM »

I speak with my bishop in Greek, so I've never called him 'Master'. However, if I were to address him with the English word 'Master', I would not be using the word prohibited in the Gospel - in this context being a translation of the word 'despota' - but you've repeatedly chosen to ignore this, so until you respond to my actual argument I'll let the matter rest.

Good point!

klēthēte kathēgētai eis kathēgētēs christos, it says in Greek. I don't see despota anywhere in that sentence. (But I do see that Christ was an accomplished alliterist.)
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« Reply #146 on: July 15, 2011, 09:27:44 PM »

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What about GOD CAN DO WHATEVER HE WANTS

He could, but He wont. God is ultimately holy, ultimately just, and ultimately correct. So are the laws he set up. Some laws dont apply to Him directly "dont murder" as the life belongs to Him in the first place and he can take it, or command others to do so, or "bring no other Gods before me" because He is God. However that being said, if God breaks His own law that would apply to Him, like abrogating His promises when we filfilled our part according to His holy word, (a la Salvation), he would not be holy, nor just. So in a manner of speaking He holds Himself up to His own rules. Afterall, God cant abide sinfulness, because he is holy...right?


primuspilus

According to that probable old liturgic text:

Quote from: 2 Timothy 2-13

This is a faithful saying:

      For if we died with Him,
We shall also live with Him.
       If we endure,
We shall also reign with Him.
      If we deny Him,
He also will deny us.
       If we are faithless,
He remains faithful;
      He cannot deny Himself.

As to what God cannot do, He cannot deny Himself nor His love for us and thus interfere with our free will. He can give us leprosy, but He can't cause our reaction to it.
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« Reply #147 on: July 16, 2011, 06:23:29 PM »

Yeshuaisiam, you are outside of the Church, even if you were at one point part of the Church. The Arians and Nestorians were once part of the Church, but their own personal interpretaions led them astray, they did not follow the teachings of the Apostles or the Tradition of the Church. The Tradition is not something to be taken lightly, nor is the authority of the Apostle Paul, who many Church Fathers revere, early Fathers such as St. Ignatius and St. Polycarp who were both diciples of St. John.

Even disciples of the Apostle John - the disciple whom Jesus loved - admitted that St. Paul had authority!

Yes, there are divisions in the Church, but there are divisions because some men decided that they knew better than the Apostles who were appointed by Jesus Himself. That there are divisions doesn't mean that we are not the true Church, just that we are all human and prone to err. By your logic the anabaptists can not be correct since there are divisions in their church. Divisions only mean that we are human and do not submit ourselves fully to God's will, they should teach us to stop relying on our own intuitions and rely on God through the instistution He gave to us - the Church - through which we may learn to subdue our passions and reach full union with God.

Well this is true partially.  It was by the nature of your statement that sounded as if people who are not practicing Orthodoxy have no means of being critical / educated enough to make statements against Orthodoxy.

As far as the divisions in the church, it is in different context with the Anabaptists.  Let me give you an example, from the creed.  "I believe in one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church".

Who claims to be the "one holy and apostolic church".   Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and many other groups.

The Anabaptists make no claim of "the one true church".   They believe in what the scripture says. 
Matthew 18:20 For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them.

That's why I do not claim the Anabaptists are "the ONE true church".

I point out the irony, vexing, and vain nature of the statement.  Every group who claims to be the "one true church" is stuck in their own beliefs and think the others are wrong.

If I can define the Anabaptists without speaking for them, they are a group of Christians that basically say "We are not protestant, we are not catholic, we follow the teachings of our early Christian brethren".   

The divisions among the groups are not Schisms.   They are divisions of "ways of living".   Some believe in the Old orders, medium orders, and new orders on acceptance of things that you bring into your lifestyle.   Some are communal living as early Christians, some don't work with technology....

It's not divisions in dogma in the "one true church".   

Basically they don't care about "the one true church", they care about following Christ as the early Christians and to leave all the fluff behind.
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« Reply #148 on: July 16, 2011, 06:23:29 PM »

I seek Orthodox Christianity.  I seek the right way (by definition).
You think you're going to find it, though, when you're the one setting all the rules regarding what IS Orthodox? You don't want orthodoxy; you want a Christianity that fits the image you've already made. That, my friend, is probably a much worse graven image than any icon we can make.

BTW, you still haven't engaged any of the counter-arguments against your position. Ridiculing them often enough isn't going to make them ridiculous.

So you'd rather trust someone that defines Orthodoxy like a "saint" who had a son who slept with his on mom?  Then the saint put his own son & wife to death?  I mean can somebody say "Jerry Springer on steroids"?

Gee stinks that I go off my own intuition being a loyal husband and a parent to 5 children.  :OP
Dodging the rebuttal with such a gross reductio ad absurdum is no way to engage a rebuttal of your position.

How about, for instance, my argument that rejection of the teaching of the Apostle Paul is rejection of Christ Himself?

How about my argument about when did God say that rejecting anything of the Apostle Paul was rejecting Christ?
Perhaps we should follow Paul's lead at first and start murdering Christians?
Face it, that's made up nonsense.

Yeshua never gave Paul that type of authority, of course, unless written by Paul.
It's actually quite simple. Jesus made Peter the chief of the Apostles, and Peter recognized Paul as a fellow Apostle, even in his own epistles.

Well this argument strays from my point.  If you want to start a new thread on it, ask who wrote that history.   Luke wrote acts.  Luke was who's disciple?  Bingo, Paul's.   

However, this strays from the point of the thread.   Of course that's when people then swirl around saying "So you say that most of the New Testament is wrong then".  Absolutely not.  I'm just saying that I am careful around the teachings of Paul & his disciple.    Read the stories about the thieves on the cross in Luke, and then in the other gospels.  In the other gospels, they INSULT Christ.  ONLY in Luke does the story come of "death bed" salvation.   

This is NOT my contradiction.   This is a contradiction of Luke vs. 2 other sources.

So yes, I get very careful when the gospels of Luke and the writings of Paul are used.   They do have contradictions.

One of which is the main excuse for the use of the word "Father" to a priest.  "I am as your father as I've birthed you into Christianity"....
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« Reply #149 on: July 16, 2011, 06:23:29 PM »

This thread resembles one of Alfreds more and more each day. I love how those people who are not in the Church think they can accurately say how the Church was back in the day.

Agreed. At times like these, I think of the prayer before Communion, "I will not speak of thy mysteries to thine enemies", and regret getting involved.

I love my enemies, and pray for those who persecute me.   
But you are my brother in Christ right?  Not my enemy. 

I mean I may be your enemy and we may disagree on dogma setup through 2000 years, but we both agree that Yeshua is the son of God who died for our sins right?

I disagree with the EO teachings that contradict what Christ said.  But that doesn't make us enemies.  Do you see what church dogma does?

Our true enemy is Lucifer, who teaches us to follow our own will rather than God's will.  It's "Do what thy wilt vs. Thy will be done".

Don't make me your enemy over some dogma setup by some dudes through 2000 years.

You are not my enemy. I have no negative feelings towards you personally.

Church dogma protects the truth from being distorted. EO teachings do not contradict Christ's words because the EOC is the Body of Christ. Contradiction is impossible. If there is a contradiction, it is a misunderstanding of Christ on your part, not an error on the Church's part.

To put not too fine a point on it:

Apostles + Church Fathers + Scripture + 2000 years of practice > your opinion

When you ignore Church dogma, you are doing thy will rather than God's, because God lives in the Church and God speaks through the Church.

Considering the New Testament, the Fathers, and Church practice since the literal beginning, is overflowing with examples of men being called "father", you are wrong. Unless you are presumptuous enough to judge the Apostles (which you are, and you have), then God help you.

Thank you.

This is where I would say though, that "This is what the EO church wants you to believe".   "If you do the will of the church, you are doing God's will".   

I agree with your formula, all those sources are greater than MY opinion.

But
Apostles + Early church brethren + 2000 years of history + the Earth + the Galaxy + anything <<<< to the infinite <<<<< than GOD

GOD said "Do NOT call any man Father, Rabbi, or Master".

The apostles were mere men, and they by far had no perfect life or sinless life.  Peter denied Christ.  Paul murdered Christians at first.   But we have no example of Matthew who recorded that saying "father, master, or Rabbi".
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« Reply #150 on: July 16, 2011, 06:23:29 PM »

I speak with my bishop in Greek, so I've never called him 'Master'. However, if I were to address him with the English word 'Master', I would not be using the word prohibited in the Gospel - in this context being a translation of the word 'despota' - but you've repeatedly chosen to ignore this, so until you respond to my actual argument I'll let the matter rest.

Good point!

klēthēte kathēgētai eis kathēgētēs christos, it says in Greek. I don't see despota anywhere in that sentence. (But I do see that Christ was an accomplished alliterist.)

Actually I see this as a bad point.  Unless the author says that OCA Orthodox Christians are not Eastern Orthodox.   They certainly call their bishops "MASTER".
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« Reply #151 on: July 16, 2011, 06:23:29 PM »

This thread is the best example of unmitigated, unequivocal and absolute theological pwnage I've yet seen on this board.

Good work, dudes.

I guess you see it as pwnage of God's words.

Do not call any man Father, Master, or Rabbi.

That's my point.  The EO christians pwnage & Disobey God's commands.
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« Reply #152 on: July 16, 2011, 06:23:29 PM »

This thread is the best example of unmitigated, unequivocal and absolute theological pwnage I've yet seen on this board.

Good work, dudes.

Just one other thing.

I've posted a photo of several clergy bowing down before an image made in the likeness of things in heaven.

It's very simple and CLEAR to see that.  They are all in a semi-circle BOWING to an IMAGE of a LIKENESS of things in heaven.

That's direct disobedience.    Even if the image "represents" the person, its still an image.   Unless we want to get delusional and start saying that the icon IS the person.

I see absolutely no "ownage" here.  I see people making excuses, because reality may just be too hard to face.
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« Reply #153 on: July 16, 2011, 06:23:29 PM »

Wrong.  Look up the word "likeness" in Hebrew.  God also gave special permission for the Cherubim.   I don't know if I can post any Jewish information here about the likeness, things haven't gone so well for me in the past when I give out factual Jewish info.

Post it to me privately if you don't think it will go down well on the board.

Quote
The Greek is unimportant right now.  That's another topic and diverts sorry I'll get off it.

It's not unimportant. The text you quoted at the beginning of this thread was an English translation of a Greek original.

Quote
Do you bow and touch the floor saying "Master Bless"?  If you do you are calling him "Master".

I speak with my bishop in Greek, so I've never called him 'Master'. However, if I were to address him with the English word 'Master', I would not be using the word prohibited in the Gospel - in this context being a translation of the word 'despota' - but you've repeatedly chosen to ignore this, so until you respond to my actual argument I'll let the matter rest.

So if you go back to the Greek are you saying Christ said to not call any man "Despota" and you do it?

http://www.oodegr.com/english/biblia/Divine_Liturgy/3.Opening.htm  In the last few lines on this link, "Master means Despota".

Do not call any man "master" which is "Despota" in Greek?  I'm not understanding your point?

Why not "brother, or brethren", which is exactly what GOD told you to call each other?
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« Reply #154 on: July 16, 2011, 06:23:43 PM »

This thread is the best example of unmitigated, unequivocal and absolute theological pwnage I've yet seen on this board.

Good work, dudes.

They have been pretty good, haven't they (I don't include myself here, as I really have not contributed to this conversation and my understanding of theology is no where near on par with the other gentlemen on this board). But I do agree that this thread has been pretty good, perhaps its all the practice everybody got during the past months dealing with Alfred, TtC, and others.

I really don't see it.  I mean its fun to pat yourself on the back when others think you did a good job.

All that was posted are examples of where apostles disobeyed Christ. ?
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« Reply #155 on: July 16, 2011, 10:48:08 PM »

This thread is the best example of unmitigated, unequivocal and absolute theological pwnage I've yet seen on this board.

Good work, dudes.

They have been pretty good, haven't they (I don't include myself here, as I really have not contributed to this conversation and my understanding of theology is no where near on par with the other gentlemen on this board). But I do agree that this thread has been pretty good, perhaps its all the practice everybody got during the past months dealing with Alfred, TtC, and others.

I really don't see it.  I mean its fun to pat yourself on the back when others think you did a good job.

All that was posted are examples of where apostles disobeyed Christ. ?


Perhaps you should actually read my posts to see what I am saying. First of all, I was not patting myself on the back as I clearly stated I did not include myself with what akimori makoto said. Second, in my other post you clearly miss the point I was trying to make, which was...

Yeshuaisiam, you are outside of the Church, even if you were at one point part of the Church. The Arians and Nestorians were once part of the Church, but their own personal interpretaions led them astray, they did not follow the teachings of the Apostles or the Tradition of the Church. The Tradition is not something to be taken lightly, nor is the authority of the Apostle Paul, who many Church Fathers revere, early Fathers such as St. Ignatius and St. Polycarp who were both diciples of St. John.

Even disciples of the Apostle John - the disciple whom Jesus loved - admitted that St. Paul had authority!

Yes, there are divisions in the Church, but there are divisions because some men decided that they knew better than the Apostles who were appointed by Jesus Himself. That there are divisions doesn't mean that we are not the true Church, just that we are all human and prone to err. By your logic the anabaptists can not be correct since there are divisions in their church. Divisions only mean that we are human and do not submit ourselves fully to God's will, they should teach us to stop relying on our own intuitions and rely on God through the instistution He gave to us - the Church - through which we may learn to subdue our passions and reach full union with God.


... three fold. 1) being that just because you were in the Church does not mean that you can rightly criticize the Church as even the Arians and Nestorians were once part of the Church and yet they were led to heresy by their own interpretations as a warning for you not to fall into heresy with your proclomations. 2) being that even disciples of St. John the Apostle say that we should listen to Paul...

Quote from Polycarp's Letter to the Philippians
Quote

These things, brethren, I write to you concerning righteousness, not because I take anything
upon myself, but because ye have invited me to do so. For neither I, nor any other such one,
can come up to the wisdom of the blessed and glorified Paul. He, when among you,
accurately and stedfastly taught the word of truth in the presence of those who were then alive.
And when absent from you, he wrote you a letter, which, if you carefully study, you will find to
be the means of building you up in that faith which has been given you, and which, being
followed by hope, and preceded by love towards God, and Christ, and our neighbour, "is the
mother of us all."

Quote from St. Ignatius' Letter to the Ephesians
Quote
I do not issue orders to you, as if I were some great person. For though I am bound for His
name, I am not yet perfect in Jesus Christ. For now I begin to be a disciple, and I speak to you
as my fellow-servants. For it was needful for me to have been admonished by you in faith,
exhortation, patience, and long-suffering. But inasmuch as love suffers me not to be silent in
regard to you, I have therefore taken upon me first to exhort you that ye would run together in
accordance with the will of God. For even Jesus Christ does all things according to the will of
the Father, as He Himself declares in a certain place, "I do always those things that please
Him."Wherefore it behoves us also to live according to the will of God in Christ, and to imitate
Him as Paul did. For, says he, "Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ."

ibid
Quote
Since also "there is one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in all." Such, then, are ye, having been taught by such instructors, Paul the Christ-bearer, and Timothy the most faithful.
... so don't just automatically throw everything Paul (or Luke for being Paul's disciple) out the window - disciples of the other Apostles very obviously think Paul has some merit. And 3) divisions do not mean the lack of the true Church, just that we as men should learn to lean on Christ and the Apostles of His that He set up to run His Church, instead of our own understanding.

Quote from Proverbs 3:5 KJV
Quote
Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

 The Anabaptist may not claim to be the one true church, but they sure do act like it, what with shunning and excommunication, also expecting to their children to marry other Anabaptists.

They have plenty of schisms such as Mennonites and the Amish which vary by belief and also

Quote from Wikipedia
Quote

In Poland and the Netherlands, certain of the Anabaptists denied the Trinity, hence the saying that a Socinian was a learned Baptist (see Socinus.) With these Menno and his followers refused to hold communion. Italian Anabaptism had an anti-trinitarian core but was a part of Anabaptism in general. In his work, Stella showed that movements' connections to Neapolitan spiritualism, (especially Juan de Valdés), but also made the connection to the Marranos as well.

Seems like a schism over dogma to me.

If I were to leave an Anabaptist church for a Baptist, or Methodist church they would still see me as being outside of the church and I would be excommunicated and shunned. They may not vocally claim to be the one true church but their actions do speak that they think they are.


If I can define the Anabaptists without speaking for them, they are a group of Christians that basically say "We are not protestant, we are not catholic, we follow the teachings of our early Christian brethren".   


Sounds a lot like plenty of other Protestant groups...

Basically they don't care about "the one true church", they care about following Christ as the early Christians and to leave all the fluff behind.

Yes they care so much about following Christ as the early Christians did that if you do not believe the way they do you are wrong. Also, they left all that fluff behind as is evidenced by how they would even go so far as to re-baptize anybody they felt did not have a true Christian initiation - hence the name Anabaptist, literally meaning those who re-baptize - this includes those Protestants who practiced infant baptism and even converts from the RCC.

I'm sorry but I fail to see how you can seriously make the claims you do, about the EO, the Anabaptist, and even St. Paul. You sound a lot like those people who think that the early Christians didn't even believe Jesus was God until Paul came in and started changing the whole religion.
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« Reply #156 on: July 16, 2011, 10:54:58 PM »

This thread resembles one of Alfreds more and more each day. I love how those people who are not in the Church think they can accurately say how the Church was back in the day.

Agreed. At times like these, I think of the prayer before Communion, "I will not speak of thy mysteries to thine enemies", and regret getting involved.

I love my enemies, and pray for those who persecute me.   
But you are my brother in Christ right?  Not my enemy. 

I mean I may be your enemy and we may disagree on dogma setup through 2000 years, but we both agree that Yeshua is the son of God who died for our sins right?

I disagree with the EO teachings that contradict what Christ said.  But that doesn't make us enemies.  Do you see what church dogma does?

Our true enemy is Lucifer, who teaches us to follow our own will rather than God's will.  It's "Do what thy wilt vs. Thy will be done".

Don't make me your enemy over some dogma setup by some dudes through 2000 years.

You are not my enemy. I have no negative feelings towards you personally.

Church dogma protects the truth from being distorted. EO teachings do not contradict Christ's words because the EOC is the Body of Christ. Contradiction is impossible. If there is a contradiction, it is a misunderstanding of Christ on your part, not an error on the Church's part.

To put not too fine a point on it:

Apostles + Church Fathers + Scripture + 2000 years of practice > your opinion

When you ignore Church dogma, you are doing thy will rather than God's, because God lives in the Church and God speaks through the Church.

Considering the New Testament, the Fathers, and Church practice since the literal beginning, is overflowing with examples of men being called "father", you are wrong. Unless you are presumptuous enough to judge the Apostles (which you are, and you have), then God help you.

Thank you.

This is where I would say though, that "This is what the EO church wants you to believe".   "If you do the will of the church, you are doing God's will".   

I agree with your formula, all those sources are greater than MY opinion.

But
Apostles + Early church brethren + 2000 years of history + the Earth + the Galaxy + anything <<<< to the infinite <<<<< than GOD

GOD said "Do NOT call any man Father, Rabbi, or Master".

The apostles were mere men, and they by far had no perfect life or sinless life.  Peter denied Christ.  Paul murdered Christians at first.   But we have no example of Matthew who recorded that saying "father, master, or Rabbi".

Those errors of Peter and Paul did not make it into Holy Tradition. Calling priests "Father" has. The Holy Spirit lives in the Church and maintains and directs the Holy Tradition.

Individuals may err, but they will fall away like chaff. "Father" is not an error.
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« Reply #157 on: July 16, 2011, 10:56:43 PM »

I speak with my bishop in Greek, so I've never called him 'Master'. However, if I were to address him with the English word 'Master', I would not be using the word prohibited in the Gospel - in this context being a translation of the word 'despota' - but you've repeatedly chosen to ignore this, so until you respond to my actual argument I'll let the matter rest.

Good point!

klēthēte kathēgētai eis kathēgētēs christos, it says in Greek. I don't see despota anywhere in that sentence. (But I do see that Christ was an accomplished alliterist.)

Actually I see this as a bad point.  Unless the author says that OCA Orthodox Christians are not Eastern Orthodox.   They certainly call their bishops "MASTER".

So if one of King James' translators had decided to translate "Kathegetai" as "Lord" (a homonym), it would suddenly be okay in your mind to call bishops "Master"? Come on.

The Bible is certainly useful in any language, but if we're going to get into the nitty gritty of individual words like this, we go back to the original language. That is how exegesis works.

Just because we translate "Despota" and "Kathegetai" as "Master" does not mean they are both the same thing. It means English has no useful distinct word to represent the difference. This is the reality of translation. This is why it is lunacy to base one's fine dogma about specific words on translations.

You're being just as silly as Alfred was a few months ago when we were arguing about "word" versus "Word". This is what Protestants have to do when they reject Holy Tradition: they scrape their beliefs out of the dirt and out of word books. Give me the Holy Spirit any day.
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« Reply #158 on: July 16, 2011, 11:40:18 PM »

I seek Orthodox Christianity.  I seek the right way (by definition).
You think you're going to find it, though, when you're the one setting all the rules regarding what IS Orthodox? You don't want orthodoxy; you want a Christianity that fits the image you've already made. That, my friend, is probably a much worse graven image than any icon we can make.

BTW, you still haven't engaged any of the counter-arguments against your position. Ridiculing them often enough isn't going to make them ridiculous.

So you'd rather trust someone that defines Orthodoxy like a "saint" who had a son who slept with his on mom?  Then the saint put his own son & wife to death?  I mean can somebody say "Jerry Springer on steroids"?

Gee stinks that I go off my own intuition being a loyal husband and a parent to 5 children.  :OP
Dodging the rebuttal with such a gross reductio ad absurdum is no way to engage a rebuttal of your position.

How about, for instance, my argument that rejection of the teaching of the Apostle Paul is rejection of Christ Himself?

How about my argument about when did God say that rejecting anything of the Apostle Paul was rejecting Christ?
Perhaps we should follow Paul's lead at first and start murdering Christians?
Face it, that's made up nonsense.

Yeshua never gave Paul that type of authority, of course, unless written by Paul.
It's actually quite simple. Jesus made Peter the chief of the Apostles, and Peter recognized Paul as a fellow Apostle, even in his own epistles.

Well this argument strays from my point.  If you want to start a new thread on it, ask who wrote that history.   Luke wrote acts.  Luke was who's disciple?  Bingo, Paul's.
Nice dodge, but in the end, my defense of Paul's apostleship is central to this debate.
1.  You assert that Jesus told us to call no man "father" or "master".
2.  Others here have pointed out how St. Paul taught otherwise.
3.  You dismiss St. Paul by...
     a.  Pointing out how he persecuted Christians (never mind that he did so BEFORE he repented and actually became a Christian)
     b.  Pointing out how St. Paul apparently contradicted Jesus
     c.  Essentially, by denying his apostleship
4.  I assert that you cannot dismiss St. Paul because he was recognized as a bona fide Apostle by no less than the other Apostles.

Now you try to dismiss the writings of St. Luke (his Gospel and his Acts of the Apostles) because he was a disciple of St. Paul, but if St. Paul cannot be dismissed from this argument because of his recognition by the other Apostles, neither can you dismiss St. Luke. In fact, St. Luke is probably the best refutation of your argument since he did so much to present a detailed historical account of Jesus' life and ministry and later of the works of the Apostles that he can't be considered merely a disciple of St. Paul. Through his thorough, investigative, and objective account, St. Luke does an outstanding job of showing us how St. Paul taught exactly what St. Peter and the other eleven of Christ's disciples taught.

BTW, you overlooked my point that St. Peter wrote in his own epistles a recognition of St. Paul's apostolic teaching, putting Paul's epistles on the same pedestal as the rest of Scripture. (2 Peter 3:14-16)
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« Reply #159 on: July 16, 2011, 11:48:06 PM »

Has this thread been mentioned yet?  I would hope so... our memories aren't that short yet...?  Maybe I should go back and read the entire thread first... on the other hand... ugh...  Wink
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« Reply #160 on: July 16, 2011, 11:53:32 PM »

But
Apostles + Early church brethren + 2000 years of history + the Earth + the Galaxy + anything <<<< to the infinite <<<<< than GOD

GOD said "Do NOT call any man Father, Rabbi, or Master".

The apostles were mere men, and they by far had no perfect life or sinless life.  Peter denied Christ.  Paul murdered Christians at first.   But we have no example of Matthew who recorded that saying "father, master, or Rabbi".
But Jesus never wrote anything that got passed on to posterity. We would therefore have no record of Jesus saying "call no man father" if one of His Apostles had never written it down. We do know that much of what Jesus said wasn't recorded in the Gospels, so why did St. Matthew record the "call no man father" statement yet not record other things Jesus said? If you argue that Matthew recorded this command because he realized its importance, then you essentially admit that you follow this command because of St. Matthew's authority. Why, then, do you not follow the equal authority of the Apostles Peter and Paul? OTOH, if St. Matthew had NOT recorded Christ's "call no man father" command, we would likely have never known of it, and you wouldn't be advocating such strict obedience to this command today.

Therefore, everything in your argument depends on how you relate to the authority of the Apostle Matthew as opposed to the authority of the other Apostles. You're picking and choosing which of those Apostles you will obey and which you will not obey. THAT, my friend, is the very definition of heresy.
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« Reply #161 on: July 17, 2011, 01:13:41 AM »

This thread is the best example of unmitigated, unequivocal and absolute theological pwnage I've yet seen on this board.

Good work, dudes.

Just one other thing.

I've posted a photo of several clergy bowing down before an image made in the likeness of things in heaven.

It's very simple and CLEAR to see that.  They are all in a semi-circle BOWING to an IMAGE of a LIKENESS of things in heaven.

That's direct disobedience.    Even if the image "represents" the person, its still an image.   Unless we want to get delusional and start saying that the icon IS the person.

I see absolutely no "ownage" here.  I see people making excuses, because reality may just be too hard to face.

Do you wear clothing spun of two fabrics?

Do you eat pork?

Our Lord said not one iota would pass from the Law until heaven and earth pass away.

How do you cope with these "CLEAR" commandments?

What is "clear"? What is "unclear"? What is metaphorical? What is literal? These are not easy questions that can be answered with the degree of self-assuredness you have displayed in your attempt at exegesis of the passage the subject of this conversation.

You have not addressed a single point which has been put to you but have continued to repeat the same idea as a mantra.

The Lord also forbade vain repetition ...
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« Reply #162 on: July 17, 2011, 06:16:35 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



I see absolutely no "ownage" here.  I see people making excuses, because reality may just be too hard to face.

How ironic you say this when instead of actually having a dialogue with the responders on this thread instead you have chosen for page after page and day after day to construct straw-man fallacy after straw-man fallacy which of course are easy for you to knock down, but alas, you've not even grazed a a single response with any substance nor heard any of what we've been trying to discuss with you.  Who is really having a hard time facing what reality here?

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #163 on: July 17, 2011, 06:33:02 PM »

So if you go back to the Greek are you saying Christ said to not call any man "Despota" and you do it?

If you go back to the Greek, you'll see that Christ does not say to not call any man despota, He says to not call people kathegetai. We call our bishops despota, we do not call them kathegetai. Got it?

Quote
http://www.oodegr.com/english/biblia/Divine_Liturgy/3.Opening.htm  In the last few lines on this link, "Master means Despota".

Do not call any man "master" which is "Despota" in Greek?  I'm not understanding your point?

Do not call any man 'kathegetai', which is not the same as 'despota'. Can you understand this?
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« Reply #164 on: July 17, 2011, 07:27:31 PM »

I think I have a duty to terminate a discussion after it has run its course. I think it has been established without any doubt whatsoever that the OP will not be satisfied with any rational explanation or answers to his questions. It is equally clear that the entire range of explanations have been offered; alas, to no avail. Folks, this is becoming a vanity item for the OP and I am considering closing this thread in three days hence. Thanks, Second Chance
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« Reply #165 on: July 18, 2011, 12:04:47 PM »

This thread is the best example of unmitigated, unequivocal and absolute theological pwnage I've yet seen on this board.

Good work, dudes.

They have been pretty good, haven't they (I don't include myself here, as I really have not contributed to this conversation and my understanding of theology is no where near on par with the other gentlemen on this board). But I do agree that this thread has been pretty good, perhaps its all the practice everybody got during the past months dealing with Alfred, TtC, and others.

I really don't see it.  I mean its fun to pat yourself on the back when others think you did a good job.

All that was posted are examples of where apostles disobeyed Christ. ?


Perhaps you should actually read my posts to see what I am saying. First of all, I was not patting myself on the back as I clearly stated I did not include myself with what akimori makoto said. Second, in my other post you clearly miss the point I was trying to make, which was...

Yeshuaisiam, you are outside of the Church, even if you were at one point part of the Church. The Arians and Nestorians were once part of the Church, but their own personal interpretaions led them astray, they did not follow the teachings of the Apostles or the Tradition of the Church. The Tradition is not something to be taken lightly, nor is the authority of the Apostle Paul, who many Church Fathers revere, early Fathers such as St. Ignatius and St. Polycarp who were both diciples of St. John.

Even disciples of the Apostle John - the disciple whom Jesus loved - admitted that St. Paul had authority!

Yes, there are divisions in the Church, but there are divisions because some men decided that they knew better than the Apostles who were appointed by Jesus Himself. That there are divisions doesn't mean that we are not the true Church, just that we are all human and prone to err. By your logic the anabaptists can not be correct since there are divisions in their church. Divisions only mean that we are human and do not submit ourselves fully to God's will, they should teach us to stop relying on our own intuitions and rely on God through the instistution He gave to us - the Church - through which we may learn to subdue our passions and reach full union with God.


... three fold. 1) being that just because you were in the Church does not mean that you can rightly criticize the Church as even the Arians and Nestorians were once part of the Church and yet they were led to heresy by their own interpretations as a warning for you not to fall into heresy with your proclomations. 2) being that even disciples of St. John the Apostle say that we should listen to Paul...

Quote from Polycarp's Letter to the Philippians
Quote

These things, brethren, I write to you concerning righteousness, not because I take anything
upon myself, but because ye have invited me to do so. For neither I, nor any other such one,
can come up to the wisdom of the blessed and glorified Paul. He, when among you,
accurately and stedfastly taught the word of truth in the presence of those who were then alive.
And when absent from you, he wrote you a letter, which, if you carefully study, you will find to
be the means of building you up in that faith which has been given you, and which, being
followed by hope, and preceded by love towards God, and Christ, and our neighbour, "is the
mother of us all."

Quote from St. Ignatius' Letter to the Ephesians
Quote
I do not issue orders to you, as if I were some great person. For though I am bound for His
name, I am not yet perfect in Jesus Christ. For now I begin to be a disciple, and I speak to you
as my fellow-servants. For it was needful for me to have been admonished by you in faith,
exhortation, patience, and long-suffering. But inasmuch as love suffers me not to be silent in
regard to you, I have therefore taken upon me first to exhort you that ye would run together in
accordance with the will of God. For even Jesus Christ does all things according to the will of
the Father, as He Himself declares in a certain place, "I do always those things that please
Him."Wherefore it behoves us also to live according to the will of God in Christ, and to imitate
Him as Paul did. For, says he, "Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ."

ibid
Quote
Since also "there is one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in all." Such, then, are ye, having been taught by such instructors, Paul the Christ-bearer, and Timothy the most faithful.
... so don't just automatically throw everything Paul (or Luke for being Paul's disciple) out the window - disciples of the other Apostles very obviously think Paul has some merit. And 3) divisions do not mean the lack of the true Church, just that we as men should learn to lean on Christ and the Apostles of His that He set up to run His Church, instead of our own understanding.

Quote from Proverbs 3:5 KJV
Quote
Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

 The Anabaptist may not claim to be the one true church, but they sure do act like it, what with shunning and excommunication, also expecting to their children to marry other Anabaptists.

They have plenty of schisms such as Mennonites and the Amish which vary by belief and also

Quote from Wikipedia
Quote

In Poland and the Netherlands, certain of the Anabaptists denied the Trinity, hence the saying that a Socinian was a learned Baptist (see Socinus.) With these Menno and his followers refused to hold communion. Italian Anabaptism had an anti-trinitarian core but was a part of Anabaptism in general. In his work, Stella showed that movements' connections to Neapolitan spiritualism, (especially Juan de Valdés), but also made the connection to the Marranos as well.

Seems like a schism over dogma to me.

If I were to leave an Anabaptist church for a Baptist, or Methodist church they would still see me as being outside of the church and I would be excommunicated and shunned. They may not vocally claim to be the one true church but their actions do speak that they think they are.


If I can define the Anabaptists without speaking for them, they are a group of Christians that basically say "We are not protestant, we are not catholic, we follow the teachings of our early Christian brethren".   


Sounds a lot like plenty of other Protestant groups...

Basically they don't care about "the one true church", they care about following Christ as the early Christians and to leave all the fluff behind.

Yes they care so much about following Christ as the early Christians did that if you do not believe the way they do you are wrong. Also, they left all that fluff behind as is evidenced by how they would even go so far as to re-baptize anybody they felt did not have a true Christian initiation - hence the name Anabaptist, literally meaning those who re-baptize - this includes those Protestants who practiced infant baptism and even converts from the RCC.

I'm sorry but I fail to see how you can seriously make the claims you do, about the EO, the Anabaptist, and even St. Paul. You sound a lot like those people who think that the early Christians didn't even believe Jesus was God until Paul came in and started changing the whole religion.

First things first, this is about EO, not Anabaptist.

Second things second, your argument is sort of redundant.  To you the only people who have the right to criticize the Eastern Orthodox worship practices are the Eastern Orthodox themselves, yet you are being critical of the Anabaptists?  Kind of dealing in with hypocrisy here aren't you?  I can be as critical as I want of the Eastern Orthodox church as I have vast experience with it, in it, and was part of it.  I don't have to be an insider currently to understand what the church is.

Also, Anabaptist is not the agenda here.  The topic is about EO Christians calling priests, Father, bishops Master.  This is disobeying God who said not to do it. 

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« Reply #166 on: July 18, 2011, 05:18:25 PM »

I speak with my bishop in Greek, so I've never called him 'Master'. However, if I were to address him with the English word 'Master', I would not be using the word prohibited in the Gospel - in this context being a translation of the word 'despota' - but you've repeatedly chosen to ignore this, so until you respond to my actual argument I'll let the matter rest.

Good point!

klēthēte kathēgētai eis kathēgētēs christos, it says in Greek. I don't see despota anywhere in that sentence. (But I do see that Christ was an accomplished alliterist.)

Actually I see this as a bad point.  Unless the author says that OCA Orthodox Christians are not Eastern Orthodox.   They certainly call their bishops "MASTER".

So if one of King James' translators had decided to translate "Kathegetai" as "Lord" (a homonym), it would suddenly be okay in your mind to call bishops "Master"? Come on.

The Bible is certainly useful in any language, but if we're going to get into the nitty gritty of individual words like this, we go back to the original language. That is how exegesis works.

Just because we translate "Despota" and "Kathegetai" as "Master" does not mean they are both the same thing. It means English has no useful distinct word to represent the difference. This is the reality of translation. This is why it is lunacy to base one's fine dogma about specific words on translations.

You're being just as silly as Alfred was a few months ago when we were arguing about "word" versus "Word". This is what Protestants have to do when they reject Holy Tradition: they scrape their beliefs out of the dirt and out of word books. Give me the Holy Spirit any day.

They mean the same thing, I can post Orthodox links on it.
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« Reply #167 on: July 18, 2011, 05:18:26 PM »

Do not call any man "Rabbi, Father, Master"

The Scriptures are meaningless when interpreted outside its context, that being the Church. The Church says it does not mean what you think it means.

I try to serve God in my life.   Don't mistake the fact that I'm saying a few things against the practices of Eastern Orthodox church that I am a sudden enemy of God.

I don't know if you're an enemy of God or not. I can't see your heart. But Saul didn't think he was God's enemy when he was rejecting Church dogma.

This sounds like a cult leader. 

I hate to break it to you, but Nicea was in 325 A.D.   There wasn't an entire "set structure" of the church in entirety before that.
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« Reply #168 on: July 18, 2011, 05:18:26 PM »

I seek Orthodox Christianity.  I seek the right way (by definition).
You think you're going to find it, though, when you're the one setting all the rules regarding what IS Orthodox? You don't want orthodoxy; you want a Christianity that fits the image you've already made. That, my friend, is probably a much worse graven image than any icon we can make.

BTW, you still haven't engaged any of the counter-arguments against your position. Ridiculing them often enough isn't going to make them ridiculous.

So you'd rather trust someone that defines Orthodoxy like a "saint" who had a son who slept with his on mom?  Then the saint put his own son & wife to death?  I mean can somebody say "Jerry Springer on steroids"?

Gee stinks that I go off my own intuition being a loyal husband and a parent to 5 children.  :OP
Dodging the rebuttal with such a gross reductio ad absurdum is no way to engage a rebuttal of your position.

How about, for instance, my argument that rejection of the teaching of the Apostle Paul is rejection of Christ Himself?

How about my argument about when did God say that rejecting anything of the Apostle Paul was rejecting Christ?
Perhaps we should follow Paul's lead at first and start murdering Christians?
Face it, that's made up nonsense.

Yeshua never gave Paul that type of authority, of course, unless written by Paul.
It's actually quite simple. Jesus made Peter the chief of the Apostles, and Peter recognized Paul as a fellow Apostle, even in his own epistles.

Well this argument strays from my point.  If you want to start a new thread on it, ask who wrote that history.   Luke wrote acts.  Luke was who's disciple?  Bingo, Paul's.
Nice dodge, but in the end, my defense of Paul's apostleship is central to this debate.
1.  You assert that Jesus told us to call no man "father" or "master".
2.  Others here have pointed out how St. Paul taught otherwise.
3.  You dismiss St. Paul by...
     a.  Pointing out how he persecuted Christians (never mind that he did so BEFORE he repented and actually became a Christian)
     b.  Pointing out how St. Paul apparently contradicted Jesus
     c.  Essentially, by denying his apostleship
4.  I assert that you cannot dismiss St. Paul because he was recognized as a bona fide Apostle by no less than the other Apostles.

Now you try to dismiss the writings of St. Luke (his Gospel and his Acts of the Apostles) because he was a disciple of St. Paul, but if St. Paul cannot be dismissed from this argument because of his recognition by the other Apostles, neither can you dismiss St. Luke. In fact, St. Luke is probably the best refutation of your argument since he did so much to present a detailed historical account of Jesus' life and ministry and later of the works of the Apostles that he can't be considered merely a disciple of St. Paul. Through his thorough, investigative, and objective account, St. Luke does an outstanding job of showing us how St. Paul taught exactly what St. Peter and the other eleven of Christ's disciples taught.

BTW, you overlooked my point that St. Peter wrote in his own epistles a recognition of St. Paul's apostolic teaching, putting Paul's epistles on the same pedestal as the rest of Scripture. (2 Peter 3:14-16)

1.  I assert?  Did he or did he not tell you to call no man Father, Rabbi, or Master?
2.  Paul did not teach you to call other men Father.  I'd like to see the scripture where he said to start calling men Father or Master.
3.  I don't dismiss Paul.  I merely point out that Paul was not sinless, and he was making mistakes when he or any other early Christians said "Father", because God told him not to do it.  "Call no man Father". 
     a. He did sin.  He murdered Christians.  Somebody questioned why my judgments could have been better than Pauls.  I merely stated that I've never murdered anybody, Christians or otherwise.  I'm a loyal husband and have 5 children.   Paul killed Christians, I didn't.   Does this make him wrong entirely, absolutely not.   I bring up the point merely when people talk about how "unworthy" my judgments are, and how great Paul's are. 
     b. "Call no man father" - God    he contradicted Yeshua.
     c.  Essentially?  He's a brother, a brethren.
     d.  He was an apostle in a book written by Luke, Paul's disciple.   Does that mean he wasn't - I don't know.  It raises eyebrows.

I'm not dismissing the writings of Luke.  I'm saying Luke's book contradicts Mark and Matthew on the subjects of the thieves on the cross.   If there was one error in Luke of such a nature, one that people believe in death bed salvation and the EO cross is arguably symbolic of, then there can be other errors in Luke's writings.  Acts for instance.
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« Reply #169 on: July 18, 2011, 05:18:26 PM »

But
Apostles + Early church brethren + 2000 years of history + the Earth + the Galaxy + anything <<<< to the infinite <<<<< than GOD

GOD said "Do NOT call any man Father, Rabbi, or Master".

The apostles were mere men, and they by far had no perfect life or sinless life.  Peter denied Christ.  Paul murdered Christians at first.   But we have no example of Matthew who recorded that saying "father, master, or Rabbi".
But Jesus never wrote anything that got passed on to posterity. We would therefore have no record of Jesus saying "call no man father" if one of His Apostles had never written it down. We do know that much of what Jesus said wasn't recorded in the Gospels, so why did St. Matthew record the "call no man father" statement yet not record other things Jesus said? If you argue that Matthew recorded this command because he realized its importance, then you essentially admit that you follow this command because of St. Matthew's authority. Why, then, do you not follow the equal authority of the Apostles Peter and Paul? OTOH, if St. Matthew had NOT recorded Christ's "call no man father" command, we would likely have never known of it, and you wouldn't be advocating such strict obedience to this command today.

Therefore, everything in your argument depends on how you relate to the authority of the Apostle Matthew as opposed to the authority of the other Apostles. You're picking and choosing which of those Apostles you will obey and which you will not obey. THAT, my friend, is the very definition of heresy.

Okay, you are seeing what I am saying wrong, and honestly it kind of gets away from the point of the thread.

Let me first state that you agree that Matthew recorded Christ's word of "call no man father".  This is a command from God.

Secondly, let's take the 4 synoptic gospels.
1. Matthew - chosen by Christ
2. Mark - chosen by Christ
3. John - chosen by Christ
4. Luke - a disciple of Paul.

There is a difference.

Now consider the books Luke authored (in context to what we are talking about).
1. Luke
2. Acts

Which book errs (or is different) on the story of the thieves next to our savior on the cross? 
1. Luke

So which apostles do I "trust" more?  The ones Luke wrote "are now apostles", or the ones that God actually chose?

However, you are taking this way way way way out of context to what I am saying anyway.   It's not that I don't trust Luke or Paul, its that I believe their books are not as accurate, complete, or absolute in comparison by EXTREMELY small degrees.   HOWEVER -

1. Paul did NOT tell people to CALL him Father
2. Paul may have not read Matthew, nor understood this command, either way, he did what God told him not to do.

ALSO

Despite what Paul may have done, God directly told people as recorded through his chosen apostle Matthew - "Call no man Father or Master".

The EO call their priests "Father" and bishops "Master".
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« Reply #170 on: July 18, 2011, 05:18:27 PM »

This thread is the best example of unmitigated, unequivocal and absolute theological pwnage I've yet seen on this board.

Good work, dudes.

Just one other thing.

I've posted a photo of several clergy bowing down before an image made in the likeness of things in heaven.

It's very simple and CLEAR to see that.  They are all in a semi-circle BOWING to an IMAGE of a LIKENESS of things in heaven.

That's direct disobedience.    Even if the image "represents" the person, its still an image.   Unless we want to get delusional and start saying that the icon IS the person.

I see absolutely no "ownage" here.  I see people making excuses, because reality may just be too hard to face.

Do you wear clothing spun of two fabrics?

Do you eat pork?

Our Lord said not one iota would pass from the Law until heaven and earth pass away.

How do you cope with these "CLEAR" commandments?

What is "clear"? What is "unclear"? What is metaphorical? What is literal? These are not easy questions that can be answered with the degree of self-assuredness you have displayed in your attempt at exegesis of the passage the subject of this conversation.

You have not addressed a single point which has been put to you but have continued to repeat the same idea as a mantra.

The Lord also forbade vain repetition ...

Do you wear clothing spun of two fabrics?
No.

Do you eat pork?
No.

Our Lord said not one iota would pass from the Law until heaven and earth pass away.

How do you cope with these "CLEAR" commandments?
I obey them.

What is "clear"? What is "unclear"? What is metaphorical? What is literal? These are not easy questions that can be answered with the degree of self-assuredness you have displayed in your attempt at exegesis of the passage the subject of this conversation.

What is clear is the commandments and rules of God.


You have not addressed a single point which has been put to you but have continued to repeat the same idea as a mantra.

The Lord also forbade vain repetition ...

Yes, so the Eastern Orthodox grab a prayer rope that everybody can see, and repeat the "Jesus Prayer" 50 to 100 times - over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over -

There that was 100 times.  Nope, no vain repetition here.   Do the Eastern Orthodox Christians ever wonder if God is deaf or does not listen?    How about say it one time and mean it?
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« Reply #171 on: July 18, 2011, 05:18:27 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



I see absolutely no "ownage" here.  I see people making excuses, because reality may just be too hard to face.

How ironic you say this when instead of actually having a dialogue with the responders on this thread instead you have chosen for page after page and day after day to construct straw-man fallacy after straw-man fallacy which of course are easy for you to knock down, but alas, you've not even grazed a a single response with any substance nor heard any of what we've been trying to discuss with you.  Who is really having a hard time facing what reality here?

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Is a straw man fallacy the words of God himself?
"Do not call any man Rabbi, Father, or Master".

These words are not a straw man fallacy, these are not words that I have made up or "constructed".  These words were spoken by God, who told you not to do it.   The excuses people gave me are ones of "traditions", "Paul did it", etc.   Excuses, mere excuses.  God said "Do NOT call any man Rabbi, Father, or Master, but call each other Brethren".  Period.

I don't understand the diversion tactics, excuses, and why it is that people can't read the words of God as their superior authority.   

I hate to break it to some of you, but the word of God is infinite in superiority over any apostle, bishop, priest, patriarch, or tradition that you may have.

I posted a photo of priests bowing to an image in the likeness of something in heaven.  What more do I get - excuses as to why they should continue bowing to an image made in the likeness of something in heaven.

After that are character attacks.  Dissonance.  Avoidance of the exact subject at hand.

This is disobedience to the commands that God has given you.  It doesn't matter in what context you try to call a priest "Father" or a bishop "Master", you are still calling these "spiritual leaders" both "Father" and "Master". 

Now what did GOD yes, that's right, not Paul, but GOD, YHWH, who became man tell you to call each other?  Brethren.
Now what did GOD yes, that's right, NOT Paul, but GOD, YHWH, who became man tell you NOT to call ANY man?  Father & Master

What do the Eastern Orthodox call their priests?  Father
What do the Eastern Orthodox call their bishops?  Master

That's called - disobedience to GOD, that's right YHWH who became flesh called Yeshua on Earth.
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« Reply #172 on: July 18, 2011, 05:18:27 PM »

So if you go back to the Greek are you saying Christ said to not call any man "Despota" and you do it?

If you go back to the Greek, you'll see that Christ does not say to not call any man despota, He says to not call people kathegetai. We call our bishops despota, we do not call them kathegetai. Got it?

Quote
http://www.oodegr.com/english/biblia/Divine_Liturgy/3.Opening.htm  In the last few lines on this link, "Master means Despota".

Do not call any man "master" which is "Despota" in Greek?  I'm not understanding your point?

Do not call any man 'kathegetai', which is not the same as 'despota'. Can you understand this?

Good than you agree that you do not call him Brethren.  That's disobedience.
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« Reply #173 on: July 18, 2011, 05:18:27 PM »

I think I have a duty to terminate a discussion after it has run its course. I think it has been established without any doubt whatsoever that the OP will not be satisfied with any rational explanation or answers to his questions. It is equally clear that the entire range of explanations have been offered; alas, to no avail. Folks, this is becoming a vanity item for the OP and I am considering closing this thread in three days hence. Thanks, Second Chance

Second chance, I think this discussion is very valid, as it is from the words of our savior.  Nobody has posted a valid answer, only examples where people were calling men "Father" and disobeying God.

As an example, there are many Christians who feel the same way.  Wouldn't you want people outside of Eastern Orthodoxy to find a legitimate reason to this question?  Look, even sermon writers say the same thing.

http://www.lectionary.org/EXEG-Concise/NT/ConNT01-Matt/Matt%2023.01-12.htm
When you read verses 8-10 and the explanation, it even addresses the Greek "kathegetai".

None of these answers directly answers two questions.

1) Do the Eastern Orthodox disobey God since God said "Call no man Rabbi, Father, or Master?
2) Do the Eastern Orthodox disobey God since they do not always refer to their priests and bishops as "brethren" as God commanded us to?

They have only given excuses "Paul did it so I can do it", "Tradition did it so I can do it", "That doesn't mean "father" it means "father" ", "The Greek says "kathegetai" I say "kathegetai" and I never sing the song in the Bishops presence that ends with "despota" ". 

Please don't close this thread, because it will only prove that the Eastern Orthodox faith is loaded with excuses for complete disobedience.

It's so direct and so simple. ? 
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« Reply #174 on: July 18, 2011, 05:33:58 PM »

But
Apostles + Early church brethren + 2000 years of history + the Earth + the Galaxy + anything <<<< to the infinite <<<<< than GOD

GOD said "Do NOT call any man Father, Rabbi, or Master".

The apostles were mere men, and they by far had no perfect life or sinless life.  Peter denied Christ.  Paul murdered Christians at first.   But we have no example of Matthew who recorded that saying "father, master, or Rabbi".
But Jesus never wrote anything that got passed on to posterity. We would therefore have no record of Jesus saying "call no man father" if one of His Apostles had never written it down. We do know that much of what Jesus said wasn't recorded in the Gospels, so why did St. Matthew record the "call no man father" statement yet not record other things Jesus said? If you argue that Matthew recorded this command because he realized its importance, then you essentially admit that you follow this command because of St. Matthew's authority. Why, then, do you not follow the equal authority of the Apostles Peter and Paul? OTOH, if St. Matthew had NOT recorded Christ's "call no man father" command, we would likely have never known of it, and you wouldn't be advocating such strict obedience to this command today.

Therefore, everything in your argument depends on how you relate to the authority of the Apostle Matthew as opposed to the authority of the other Apostles. You're picking and choosing which of those Apostles you will obey and which you will not obey. THAT, my friend, is the very definition of heresy.

Okay, you are seeing what I am saying wrong, and honestly it kind of gets away from the point of the thread.

Let me first state that you agree that Matthew recorded Christ's word of "call no man father".  This is a command from God.

Secondly, let's take the 4 synoptic gospels.
1. Matthew - chosen by Christ
2. Mark - chosen by Christ
3. John - chosen by Christ
4. Luke - a disciple of Paul.

There is a difference.

Now consider the books Luke authored (in context to what we are talking about).
1. Luke
2. Acts

Which book errs (or is different) on the story of the thieves next to our savior on the cross? 
1. Luke

So which apostles do I "trust" more?  The ones Luke wrote "are now apostles", or the ones that God actually chose?

However, you are taking this way way way way out of context to what I am saying anyway.   It's not that I don't trust Luke or Paul, its that I believe their books are not as accurate, complete, or absolute in comparison by EXTREMELY small degrees.   HOWEVER -

1. Paul did NOT tell people to CALL him Father
2. Paul may have not read Matthew, nor understood this command, either way, he did what God told him not to do.

ALSO

Despite what Paul may have done, God directly told people as recorded through his chosen apostle Matthew - "Call no man Father or Master".

The EO call their priests "Father" and bishops "Master".

This reminds me of why I stopped discussing things with Protestants a long time ago.

They'll assert some practice of my church is unBiblical.  When I quote an Old Testament passage to support it, they'll say it doesn't count because it's the Old Testament, and not the New Testament.

If I quote one of Paul's epistles, they'll say it doesn't count because it's an epistle and not the Gospel.  When I quote the Gospel of John, they'll say it doesn't count because it's not one of the synoptic Gospels.  When I quote one of the Synoptics, they'll say it doesn't count because it's not in the Gospel of John.  When I cite something that is in all four Gospels, they'll say it doesn't count because it isn't in one of Paul's Epistles.

I've experienced the above so many times, I've just given up.  And here we have it being done again by one of our posters here on OCnet.

Whatever.  In my Church, the entire Bible is considered the Breath of God.  We respect all of it.  We don't point to parts we disagree with and say those parts are wrong.  We don't put ourselves above the Apostles and judge them.

This is one of many reasons I just can't take Protestants, Evangelicals, or whatever, seriously.
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« Reply #175 on: July 18, 2011, 05:39:11 PM »

This sounds like a cult leader.

Yes. The cult of Jesus Christ, AKA the Orthodox Church. Smiley

 
I hate to break it to you, but Nicea was in 325 A.D.   There wasn't an entire "set structure" of the church in entirety before that.

How did the Church Fathers and Masters all decide to come together to hold the Council of Nicaea, then, I wonder? Smiley

So, yes there was a set structure. See the Ante-Nicene Fathers and Apostolic Fathers for notes.
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« Reply #176 on: July 18, 2011, 05:43:36 PM »

They mean the same thing, I can post Orthodox links on it.

The song we sing to our bishops goes "Eis polla eti, Despota", not "Eis polla eti, Kathegetai."  I've sung it myself a number of times.
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« Reply #177 on: July 18, 2011, 05:56:15 PM »

Good than you agree that you do not call him Brethren.  That's disobedience.

It doesn't command us to call them brethren. However, it might make you happy to know that bishops and priests normally begin all sermons with 'My beloved brethren'  Smiley
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« Reply #178 on: July 18, 2011, 06:01:21 PM »

They mean the same thing, I can post Orthodox links on it.

The song we sing to our bishops goes "Eis polla eti, Despota", not "Eis polla eti, Kathegetai."  I've sung it myself a number of times.

Ironic that someone who insists on saying Yeshua rather than Jesus would ignore the original text and base his argument on the English translation of the KJV. I'm trying to decide whether I should follow verse 4 or verse 5 of Proverbs 26.
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