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Author Topic: Do the Orthodox disobey God in their practice?  (Read 11509 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: July 10, 2011, 05:52:55 PM »

8But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
9And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
10Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

Let me break it down.
8.  A Rabbi is a spiritual leader & teacher of the church in Judaism.  (We are all brethren, not any more special than the other)
9.  Call NO MAN your FATHER upon the Earth!  Our Father is in HEAVEN.
10. Do not call anybody MASTER.  For only God is our master.

Okay, now for the Orthodox.

8 & 9.  What is a priest?  A spiritual leader and teacher in the church.  What do you call him?  FATHER.  God told you NOT to call any MAN father.  A priest is a MAN.  Are you going to give an explanation of why you are disobeying God and continue to say "Father".   God has told you not to call any  man father.  Not a Rabbi (teacher or spiritual leader) not anybody.  A priest is our brethren not our father.   Do you feel that you are disobeying God when you call your priest "Father" when GOD specifically commanded you NOT to call ANY MAN FATHER?

10.  What's the first thing you do when you see a bishop?  Bow, touch the floor and say what?  "Master bless".   Guess what, you did it again!  You called a man MASTER.  Jesus told you not to call anybody master.  Yet it is specifically done.  Is there an explanation?  I'm sure. But does the explanation meet worthy to disobey God?

Please no personal attacks.  I'm quoting the scripture that is from God's own words.
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« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2011, 05:57:27 PM »

8But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
9And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
10Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

Let me break it down.
8.  A Rabbi is a spiritual leader & teacher of the church in Judaism.  (We are all brethren, not any more special than the other)
9.  Call NO MAN your FATHER upon the Earth!  Our Father is in HEAVEN.
10. Do not call anybody MASTER.  For only God is our master.

Okay, now for the Orthodox.

8 & 9.  What is a priest?  A spiritual leader and teacher in the church.  What do you call him?  FATHER.  God told you NOT to call any MAN father.  A priest is a MAN.  Are you going to give an explanation of why you are disobeying God and continue to say "Father".   God has told you not to call any  man father.  Not a Rabbi (teacher or spiritual leader) not anybody.  A priest is our brethren not our father.   Do you feel that you are disobeying God when you call your priest "Father" when GOD specifically commanded you NOT to call ANY MAN FATHER?
Then what do you call the man who worked in concert with your mother to bring you kicking and screaming into this world?

10.  What's the first thing you do when you see a bishop?  Bow, touch the floor and say what?  "Master bless".   Guess what, you did it again!  You called a man MASTER.  Jesus told you not to call anybody master.  Yet it is specifically done.  Is there an explanation?  I'm sure. But does the explanation meet worthy to disobey God?

Please no personal attacks.  I'm quoting the scripture that is from God's own words.
But do you understand the context of Christ's words? I'm not going to explain it to you, since it seems to me you're only itching for a fight.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2011, 06:02:35 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2011, 06:08:22 PM »



I write not these things to shame you, but to admonish you as my beloved children.  For though ye have ten thousand tutors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I begat you through the gospel.  I beseech you therefore, be ye imitators of me. 1 Corinthians 4:14-16

Orthodoxy: guilty of imitating St. Paul?



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« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2011, 06:28:55 PM »

Quote
I'm quoting the scripture that is from God's own words.

As you see them anyway.

Quote
since it seems to me you're only itching for a fight.

It couldn't be more apparent.


Yeshuaisiam. I've never had that much of a problem with you, but come on brother. If you have a question, ask a question. You set up these diligently worded "questions" and then attack the responders; its ridiculous. Who knows if the explanations are worthy for God, but it seems like you care much more about answers worthy to you.
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« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2011, 06:47:21 PM »

yeshuaisiam,

Simply do a search in the New Testament for the words you've listed and you'll get your answer.

Here, just a few examples of "father":

"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."
- John 8:56

"Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all"
- Romans 4:16

"Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?"
- James 2:21

You can read these too if you're so inclined:

'Call No Man Father?':

 http://www.antiochian.org/node/19193

'Why Orthodox Call their Pastor "Father"':

http://www.synaxis.org/callnoman.htm

Hope this helps you.

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« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2011, 07:18:53 PM »

Yeshuaisiam, if you read the entire chapter, it becomes quite apparent he is speaking about hypocrites.  Men who seek after fame and honor, who glory in the title of Father, or Master.  It is not speaking about legitimate spiritual fathers, people who do not enjoy being a priest simply because they like prestige and being called Father.

If you read the passage so literally, what do you call the person who stands in front of a room full of ten year olds and educates them on math?  Do you call them a "Mathematical Illuminator" or perhaps "Chief Dissemination Officer for Mathematical Knowledge"?  No.  You call them teacher.  That is because they teach.  To call them otherwise, or to deny them the title, would be hypocritical.  As well, it would be hypocritical if you came up with any word meaning the same thing for a teacher, master, father, etc.  If you said educator, or boss, or dad, those would all be sins as well, because you would be in violation of the spirit of the commandment, if you were right about how Christ's words are to be interpreted.  You would be forced to call the person whose semen helped to create you by his first name or, possibly, "Mr. Last Name."  You could not call him by any special title or reference, not dad or daddy, not father, not biological father, not any special name that you give him because he fathered you.  It would even be hypocritical to say that he fathered you, and yet deny him the title father.  Does Christ endorse hypocrisy, because it would seem to me he rails against it frequently.

If you must attack the Orthodox Church, please at least pick something like icons, or saints, not something so easily and quickly refuted by a simple reading of the context of the passage.
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« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2011, 07:37:24 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Aside from the fact already mentioned above several times over that even in the Scriptures priests, rabbis, patriarchs, elders, and apostles are referred directly as "father/fathers" let me point out this glaringly obvious but forgotten point by sola scripture-ists

Yeshuaisism mentioned "when God said" in regard to the Scriptures, I'd like him to elaborate on what he means by that? So is God directly and literally writing, transmitting and speaking the words of these Scriptures? And which Scriptures exactly? And what is the evidence of this?

Rather we teach the Scriptures are inspired by God, not that they are necessarily the literal and inerrant words of God.  We receive it from men, in a human form.  So we in the Church can not simply have a "read it for yourself" mentality because that is not how the Scriptures are meant to be approached.  Instead, we in Orthodox consult the opinions of experts like priests and biblical scholars so that we can see the interpretations aligned with the Holy Tradition and the Apostolic Church.  The Bible doesn't speak for itself in the literal way some folks seem to think, as even within the Scriptures Peter affirms that "no prophecy [or interpretation] is of itself, rather all prophecies are subject to the prophets [ie, the already existing traditions]."

So we must always read the Scriptures in line with the Tradition, and what has not only the Scriptures self-evidently but also through interpretation of the Apostolic Church taught, that we should revere our priests and elders and "fathers" and this is obvious in that we called them "Father" or "Our Father" or in the Ethiopian Orthodox Liq Pappasat (Biggest Papa Smiley )

Stay Blessed,
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« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2011, 08:13:26 PM »

Jesus said "Do not call any man rabbi, father, and Master".

A Rabbi is a spiritual teacher & leader.
A Priest is a spiritual teacher & leader.
Do not call any man father came from the mouth of God.
Perhaps to make my question easier let's concentrate on the word "Master".

Please let's work with "Master Bless".

I'm honestly not attacking anybody personally here... I have some reasons to doubt some of the practices of the Eastern Orthodox church.

The Eastern Orthodox call their priests "Father".  They call their Bishops "Master".   God said "Do not call ANY man Father or Master".

Is this not disobedience?
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« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2011, 08:13:26 PM »

Quote
I'm quoting the scripture that is from God's own words.

As you see them anyway.

Quote
since it seems to me you're only itching for a fight.

It couldn't be more apparent.


Yeshuaisiam. I've never had that much of a problem with you, but come on brother. If you have a question, ask a question. You set up these diligently worded "questions" and then attack the responders; its ridiculous. Who knows if the explanations are worthy for God, but it seems like you care much more about answers worthy to you.

Please don't have a problem with me either.

Believe me, it's much more than just trying to "troll" for answers or anything.  I've been involved in the Eastern Orthodox faith VERY heavily in my life, if not in practice at a church, I was in study.  I'm coming to find some of the teachings stray not only far, but insanely far from the scriptures,  early church fathers, and from the 1st century Christians.   I've watched "Bishops" betray the communion through ecumenism which lead to my studies that strayed me from "Eastern Orthodox".  I am a seeker of what is "Orthodox" or "The right way". 

I've come to find that one man's heresy is another man's salvation.  Also, that history was written by the victors.   Often the Victors cast out and banished those who spoke the truth.

If God tells you to not call a man Father or Master, and we say "but because Paul did this so can we", that's not a reason.  Paul was a sinner.  We have to read the actual words of God sometimes and we'll see how far things have gone.

This is why I am asking now that we discuss the word "master" to avoid the confusion of the word "Father".


Greet a Bishop "Master Bless".   God said do not call any man Master.
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« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2011, 08:23:07 PM »

Quote
I'm quoting the scripture that is from God's own words.

As you see them anyway.

Quote
since it seems to me you're only itching for a fight.

It couldn't be more apparent.


Yeshuaisiam. I've never had that much of a problem with you, but come on brother. If you have a question, ask a question. You set up these diligently worded "questions" and then attack the responders; its ridiculous. Who knows if the explanations are worthy for God, but it seems like you care much more about answers worthy to you.

Please don't have a problem with me either.

Believe me, it's much more than just trying to "troll" for answers or anything.  I've been involved in the Eastern Orthodox faith VERY heavily in my life, if not in practice at a church, I was in study.  I'm coming to find some of the teachings stray not only far, but insanely far from the scriptures,  early church fathers, and from the 1st century Christians.   I've watched "Bishops" betray the communion through ecumenism which lead to my studies that strayed me from "Eastern Orthodox".  I am a seeker of what is "Orthodox" or "The right way".  

I've come to find that one man's heresy is another man's salvation.  Also, that history was written by the victors.   Often the Victors cast out and banished those who spoke the truth.

If God tells you to not call a man Father or Master, and we say "but because Paul did this so can we", that's not a reason.  Paul was a sinner.  We have to read the actual words of God sometimes and we'll see how far things have gone.
St. Paul was an Apostle of Jesus Christ. Now, didn't Jesus say to His Apostles, of whom St. Paul was a member as one born late, "He who receives you receives Me"? Doesn't the converse of this then mean "He who rejects you rejects Me"? Be careful, then, how far you go in rejecting the teaching of the Apostle Paul because he was a sinner. After all, even the chief of the Apostles recognized Paul as an apostle like himself and Paul's teaching as true.

BTW, you do realize that the very Gospel from which you extracted your original quotes is fundamentally the teaching of the Apostle Matthew? Deny the teaching authority of the Apostles, and you deny the very foundation of what we believe to be the teachings of Christ Himself.
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« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2011, 08:39:21 PM »

Please, please listen to Fr Tom Hopko's podcast on the subject:

http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/call_no_man_father

Father gives a lengthy exposition of the scripture you've cited and covers all possible bases.

As you are well aware (I am not even going to canvass the issue in this post at any length), the scriptures are not self-interpreting, so please do not treat them as if they are on this particular occasion.
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« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2011, 08:48:47 PM »

yeshuaisiam,

Simply do a search in the New Testament for the words you've listed and you'll get your answer.

Here, just a few examples of "father":

"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."
- John 8:56

"Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all"
- Romans 4:16

"Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?"
- James 2:21

You can read these too if you're so inclined:

'Call No Man Father?':

 http://www.antiochian.org/node/19193

'Why Orthodox Call their Pastor "Father"':

http://www.synaxis.org/callnoman.htm

Hope this helps you.



Or you could just completely ignore everything I've written and carry on as if I wasn't even here. Maybe you do just want to argue.

I even quoted Jesus Himself above - but still you persist?

If Christ meant literally to call no man father as is your assumption... then why would He say the following?

"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."
- John 8:56

Abraham is a man. God called him our father.

You must reconcile these things somehow. How are you going to do it?

Did you read the links I provided you with? Did you do a word search in the Bible for 'father', 'rabbi', 'teacher', etc?

Am I just wasting effort here with you?
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« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2011, 09:27:30 PM »

I have some reasons to doubt some of the practices of the Eastern Orthodox church.

The Eastern Orthodox call their priests "Father".  They call their Bishops "Master".   God said "Do not call ANY man Father or Master".

Is this not disobedience?

You obviously haven't read the New Testament since Christ's own Apostles addressed people as "Father":
"I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning..." 1John 2:13.
Or do Texans consider themselves to be somehow closer to God than the Apostles?
Yes. I'm messing with Texas.
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« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2011, 10:03:08 PM »

I believe it was St. Jerome who answered essentially the following question regarding Matt. 23.9: "were the apostles sinning and the apostolic scriptures in error when referring to men as father"?   His reply was rather simple and to the point:
The fact that we have one Son of God by nature does not prevent others from being understood as sons of God by adoption. 
Similarly, because we have one who is Father by nature and one who is Teacher by nature does not prevent others by grace in this same adoption from being fathers and teachers.    God the Father is the original by nature, the sole "cause" and thus Father of all by nature, and all others by grace.  Likewise, the Son is the only Begotten Son (i.e. by nature), but in Him many sons by grace.   

Of course, the context of "where the apostles sinning" etc. is the fact that every writer of the New Testament refers to men as fathers.  In addition to St. Paul's quotes, for example, we have:

  1 John 2:13
I write to you, fathers, Because you have known Him who is from the beginning. I write to you, young men, Because you have overcome the wicked one. I write to you, little children, Because you have known the Father.

1 John 2:14
I have written to you, fathers, Because you have known Him who is from the beginning. I have written to you, young men, Because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, And you have overcome the wicked one.
1 Peter 1:18
knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers,
James 2:21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?

BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY, YOU MUST ASK YOURSELF...

Was the Holy Spirit sinning when He moved St. Zacharias to call men his fathers?

"Now his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying: '...to perform the mercy promised to our fathers And to remember His holy covenant...the oath which He swore to our father Abraham'" (Luke 1.67-73)

Of course not.  The Holy Spirit does not sin against the Son, nor the Son against the Spirit.     

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« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2011, 10:15:05 PM »

I said the same thing in two lines (with an added two lines to mess with Texas).
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« Reply #15 on: July 11, 2011, 10:58:41 AM »

Yes. I'm messing with Texas.

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« Reply #16 on: July 11, 2011, 12:01:52 PM »

Jesus also said not to call Him "good" or "God" and we do both of those also.
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And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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« Reply #17 on: July 11, 2011, 03:57:37 PM »

Jesus said "Do not call any man rabbi, father, and Master".

Yes my brother but you've missed my point entirely.  Did Jesus actually say these words? Where do you read them? Oh right, in a book, which was transcribed and transmitted across 2000 years of complicated history. How did all this transcribing and transmitting? Oh right, the very priests whose titles are "father" and so perhaps we should trust their judgment and interpretation rather then getting so fundamentally mixed up along our own individual ideas as if they somehow carried the same authority?

Protestant thinking needs to perpetually reiterate that the Bible was written passed down by the Church, and so the Church is the rightful authority to consul on matters of interpretation, and we should trust the Church's interpretation above any of our own individualized, "read it for yourself" approaches (and by the way, I've read the bible a chapter a day cover to cover three times in the past 10 concurrent years so I am clearly a fan of bible reading Wink )

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stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #18 on: July 11, 2011, 04:06:37 PM »

Call No Man Father:

http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/call_no_man_father

EDIT: A summation of much of the above with a nod the theomophism of Man rather the anthropomorphism of God.
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« Reply #19 on: July 11, 2011, 09:17:48 PM »

yeshuaisiam,

Simply do a search in the New Testament for the words you've listed and you'll get your answer.

Here, just a few examples of "father":

"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."
- John 8:56

"Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all"
- Romans 4:16

"Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?"
- James 2:21

You can read these too if you're so inclined:

'Call No Man Father?':

 http://www.antiochian.org/node/19193

'Why Orthodox Call their Pastor "Father"':

http://www.synaxis.org/callnoman.htm

Hope this helps you.



Or you could just completely ignore everything I've written and carry on as if I wasn't even here. Maybe you do just want to argue.

I even quoted Jesus Himself above - but still you persist?

If Christ meant literally to call no man father as is your assumption... then why would He say the following?

"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."
- John 8:56

Abraham is a man. God called him our father.

You must reconcile these things somehow. How are you going to do it?

Did you read the links I provided you with? Did you do a word search in the Bible for 'father', 'rabbi', 'teacher', etc?

Am I just wasting effort here with you?

This is incorrect.

Yes Abraham was a man.  Jesus was speaking to the Jews saying "YOUR Father".

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« Reply #20 on: July 11, 2011, 09:17:48 PM »

I have some reasons to doubt some of the practices of the Eastern Orthodox church.

The Eastern Orthodox call their priests "Father".  They call their Bishops "Master".   God said "Do not call ANY man Father or Master".

Is this not disobedience?

You obviously haven't read the New Testament since Christ's own Apostles addressed people as "Father":
"I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning..." 1John 2:13.
Or do Texans consider themselves to be somehow closer to God than the Apostles?
Yes. I'm messing with Texas.

Then you are saying that Christ's own apostles disobeyed God.

God said "Call no man father or master".
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« Reply #21 on: July 11, 2011, 09:17:49 PM »

Call no man Father, Rabbi, or Master.

Eastern Orthodox call their priests "Father" and Bishops "Master".

This is clear cut.

We should call the priests and Bishops "Brethren or Brothers or even "Bishop or Priest" is fine. 
This is because Christ told us "we are all brothers".

This is why your "metropolitan" should be bending over and washing your feet which was also commanded by God, as you should wash his.  But no, he's called master and people kiss his hand and hold him as more significant than themselves. 

Of course everybody wants to stick with "Father" to contort the disobedience to God with excuses, but nobody has talked about "Master".
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« Reply #22 on: July 12, 2011, 12:35:49 AM »

Call no man Father, Rabbi, or Master.

Eastern Orthodox call their priests "Father" and Bishops "Master".

This is clear cut.

We should call the priests and Bishops "Brethren or Brothers or even "Bishop or Priest" is fine.  
This is because Christ told us "we are all brothers".

This is why your "metropolitan" should be bending over and washing your feet which was also commanded by God, as you should wash his.  But no, he's called master and people kiss his hand and hold him as more significant than themselves.  

Of course everybody wants to stick with "Father" to contort the disobedience to God with excuses, but nobody has talked about "Master".
Yup. Just as I thought. You don't want a discussion. You want a fight.

Others here have given you the greater context for the Gospel passage you quote mined for your argument, and they have explained exactly how your reasoning is wrong, and yet you continue to press the same old point without even engaging the counter-arguments.
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« Reply #23 on: July 12, 2011, 12:42:53 AM »

Do you call anyone Mister?

Stop now.

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« Reply #24 on: July 12, 2011, 12:42:59 AM »

Call no man Father, Rabbi, or Master.

Eastern Orthodox call their priests "Father" and Bishops "Master".

This is clear cut.

We should call the priests and Bishops "Brethren or Brothers or even "Bishop or Priest" is fine. 
This is because Christ told us "we are all brothers".

This is why your "metropolitan" should be bending over and washing your feet which was also commanded by God, as you should wash his.  But no, he's called master and people kiss his hand and hold him as more significant than themselves. 

Of course everybody wants to stick with "Father" to contort the disobedience to God with excuses, but nobody has talked about "Master".

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« Reply #25 on: July 12, 2011, 12:44:36 AM »

Don't ever allow yourself to be graduated a Magister.
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« Reply #26 on: July 12, 2011, 12:46:28 AM »

Don't ever refer to a renown conductor as a Maestro. 
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« Reply #27 on: July 12, 2011, 12:47:33 AM »

Never refer to a great work of human effort as a masterpiece.
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« Reply #28 on: July 12, 2011, 12:48:53 AM »

Between master and father, I can probably do this off the top of my head for at least 50 more posts to let you know what words not to day.
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« Reply #29 on: July 12, 2011, 12:50:24 AM »

Shun thou the thigh-master and stop thine ears shouldst thou hear of "Masters of the Universe."
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« Reply #30 on: July 12, 2011, 12:57:15 AM »

yeshuaisiam,

How many eyes have you plucked out? Or limps have you lopped off?

Was it worth the primo parking spots?

Curious.
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« Reply #31 on: July 12, 2011, 02:17:03 AM »

Yes. I'm messing with Texas.

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Hilarious. Great way to start the day.

The funny thing is, this user is using a troll tactic to divert the argument that their faith is directly violating what God said directly not to do.  He is trying to get a rise out of me which didn't work.  I'm far past an eleven teen year old who's going to cry at immature and ridiculous antics.
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« Reply #32 on: July 12, 2011, 02:25:24 AM »

Yes. I'm messing with Texas.

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Hilarious. Great way to start the day.

The funny thing is, this user is using a troll tactic to divert the argument that their faith is directly violating what God said directly not to do.  He is trying to get a rise out of me which didn't work.  I'm far past an eleven teen year old who's going to cry at immature and ridiculous antics.

You want to talk about ridiculous trolling tactics:

Call no man Father, Rabbi, or Master.

Eastern Orthodox call their priests "Father" and Bishops "Master".

This is clear cut.

We should call the priests and Bishops "Brethren or Brothers or even "Bishop or Priest" is fine. 
This is because Christ told us "we are all brothers".

This is why your "metropolitan" should be bending over and washing your feet which was also commanded by God, as you should wash his.  But no, he's called master and people kiss his hand and hold him as more significant than themselves. 

Of course everybody wants to stick with "Father" to contort the disobedience to God with excuses, but nobody has talked about "Master".
Yup. Just as I thought. You don't want a discussion. You want a fight.

Others here have given you the greater context for the Gospel passage you quote mined for your argument, and they have explained exactly how your reasoning is wrong, and yet you continue to press the same old point without even engaging the counter-arguments.
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« Reply #33 on: July 12, 2011, 03:29:10 AM »



This is incorrect.

Yes Abraham was a man.  Jesus was speaking to the Jews saying "YOUR Father".



No, sorry.

Jesus was speaking to Israelites.

"And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."
- Galatians 3:29

Abraham is the father of Israel.  Israel is the Church.

Abraham is our father.

And Christ called Abraham "father". Did you miss that part? Because that was the important part you know.

Christ said "Call no man father."

AFTER that, He called Abraham our father.

Please reconcile these two statements.
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« Reply #34 on: July 12, 2011, 10:11:50 AM »

I have some reasons to doubt some of the practices of the Eastern Orthodox church.

The Eastern Orthodox call their priests "Father".  They call their Bishops "Master".   God said "Do not call ANY man Father or Master".

Is this not disobedience?

You obviously haven't read the New Testament since Christ's own Apostles addressed people as "Father":
"I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning..." 1John 2:13.
Or do Texans consider themselves to be somehow closer to God than the Apostles?
Yes. I'm messing with Texas.

Then you are saying that Christ's own apostles disobeyed God.

God said "Call no man father or master".
Is that the best you can do? I've had more interesting conversations with shrubs than this.
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« Reply #35 on: July 12, 2011, 10:48:23 AM »

I'm quoting the scripture that is from God's own words.

"And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven." -Matt. 23:9

"Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." -Matt. 19:18-19

Either Christ contradicted Himself, or you are misinterpreting the Gospel. Which do you think is more likely?
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« Reply #36 on: July 12, 2011, 11:23:54 AM »

It isn't that we are forbidden to use the word father for others. Rather we must not think anyone is (must not call them) our true benefactor besides God. Our priests and fathers by the blood do good and take care of us, but ALL good comes from God so really that care and love is from Him. Don't make it something more than that. I promise you won't be able to pull a "gotcha" over on God or the Church.
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« Reply #37 on: July 12, 2011, 11:33:12 AM »



OK, let's look at the big picture.  First exhibit, Matthew 5:27-30

"You have heard that it was said, `You shall not commit adultery.' But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.

Let's be reasonable: such things have not gone on in mainstream Christianity.  That's because we know our Lord was speaking in what is called 'hyperbole.'  Otherwise, we'd all be blind double-amputees.

Here is another example, taken from John 8:1-11:

But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. Early in the morning he came again to the temple; all the people came to him, and he sat down and taught them. The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery, and placing her in the midst they said to him, "Teacher, this woman has been caught in the act of adultery. Now in the law Moses commanded us to stone such. What do you say about her?" This they said to test him, that they might have some charge to bring against him. Jesus bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, "Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her."
And once more he bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. But when they heard it, they went away, one by one, beginning with the eldest, and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him.
Jesus looked up and said to her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?" She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "Neither do I condemn you; go, and do not sin again."


Was our Lord expecting to never commit another sin again?  No, He meant not to sin in that way or some other grave sin.

Here's another fun one from Matthew 5:28:

You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Wow, He said 'must be perfect!'  Anyone around here think he or she is perfect?  How about close to perfect?

In fact, Orthodoxy is guilty saying that man can be eternally perfected but never be perfect because only God is perfect and since His perfection is eternal and boundless, we are eternally perfected without attaining it.

If you really examine the passage, you see that our Lord is addressing the Pharisees and the rulers of the synagogues who do not serve the people [Matthew 23:1-12]:

Then said Jesus to the crowds and to his disciples, "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat; so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice. They bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with their
finger. They do all their deeds to be seen by men; for they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long, and they love the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues, and salutations in the market places, and being called rabbi by men. But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brethren.  And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. Neither be called masters, for you have one master, the Christ.  He who is greatest among you shall be your servant; whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted."


If you read the entire passage, Jesus begins with addressing the problem of loving the title 'rabbi.'  He warns people to be humble and to serve, not seeking after titles and appearances.  We must recognize that the Holy Spirit teaches the hearts of the people and we are mere vessels, and those who preside do so because they sacrifice the most for the sake of the Church and her people.

We are not called to read without understanding, and a literalist has no understanding because the Scriptures were not written that way.


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« Reply #38 on: July 12, 2011, 11:33:29 AM »

If God tells you to not call a man Father or Master, and we say "but because Paul did this so can we", that's not a reason.  Paul was a sinner.  We have to read the actual words of God sometimes and we'll see how far things have gone.

Paul, inspired by the Holy Spirit, did this multiple times in scripture.
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« Reply #39 on: July 12, 2011, 11:51:31 AM »

Call no man Father, Rabbi, or Master.

Eastern Orthodox call their priests "Father" and Bishops "Master".

This is clear cut.

We should call the priests and Bishops "Brethren or Brothers or even "Bishop or Priest" is fine. 
This is because Christ told us "we are all brothers".

This is why your "metropolitan" should be bending over and washing your feet which was also commanded by God, as you should wash his.  But no, he's called master and people kiss his hand and hold him as more significant than themselves. 

Of course everybody wants to stick with "Father" to contort the disobedience to God with excuses, but nobody has talked about "Master".



That's clergy washing clergy's feet, not Bishops washing laymen's feet.  We are brethren.
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« Reply #40 on: July 12, 2011, 12:32:04 PM »

OK, so we have one picture.  What it does not tell us is whether bishops only wash priests' feet, or even if this bishop only washed this priest's feet and no other.

In most cases, I have seen bishops wash a number of people's feet during the same rite, usually a priest is included because during 'normal business hours' the bishop runs the priest's life rather completely.  Thus, it is a reversal in a very personal way for both.

But, seriously, you weren't really thinking a single picture was going to impugne the entire Orthodox CHurch, did you?



Call no man Father, Rabbi, or Master.

Eastern Orthodox call their priests "Father" and Bishops "Master".

This is clear cut.

We should call the priests and Bishops "Brethren or Brothers or even "Bishop or Priest" is fine. 
This is because Christ told us "we are all brothers".

This is why your "metropolitan" should be bending over and washing your feet which was also commanded by God, as you should wash his.  But no, he's called master and people kiss his hand and hold him as more significant than themselves. 

Of course everybody wants to stick with "Father" to contort the disobedience to God with excuses, but nobody has talked about "Master".



That's clergy washing clergy's feet, not Bishops washing laymen's feet.  We are brethren.
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« Reply #41 on: July 12, 2011, 05:01:00 PM »

I want everybody to recognize the responses I've gotten.

"I've had more interesting conversations with a shrub".
"Yes I'm messing with Texas".

etc.

I'm not baited to give a rise out of this.  All these things prove to me that it strikes a nerve.  It is only normal to react in hostility to defend a position or practice that you have and its only because you know I am right.

GOD, yes that's right GOD spoke to you and said "Call no man Rabbi, Father or Master".

YOU call a man Father.
YOU call a man Master.

The Eastern Orthodox Church calls their priests "FATHER" & Bishops "MASTER".  

This is in direct OPPOSITION to what GOD told you to do.

What comes back are insults, anger, hostility, and trivial explanations.
I don't know how much more CLEAR Yeshua our God could have been.  
He was speaking of spiritual teachers & leaders when he spoke of this!

I would confess this to your presbyter, your brethren!
Confess it to your Bishop, your brethren!


LOL, not one person made clarity of who NOT to call father or the point of WHY Yeshua would have even said this.  They merely have given excuses, explanations, and sermons on why you should disobey God.   So tell me, if Yeshua said this:

1) Call no man Rabbi
2) Call no man Father
3) Call no man Master

Who was he referring to?

Wait let me guess.  The explanations will be:

1) Don't recognize Jewish Rabbis
2) Quit calling your dad "Father"
3) Don't call your Karate teach Master

LoL

He was speaking of your spiritual leaders, teachers, instructors.
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« Reply #42 on: July 12, 2011, 05:01:00 PM »

If God tells you to not call a man Father or Master, and we say "but because Paul did this so can we", that's not a reason.  Paul was a sinner.  We have to read the actual words of God sometimes and we'll see how far things have gone.

Paul, inspired by the Holy Spirit, did this multiple times in scripture.

Paul did what God told him not to do too.  Where was it written again that Paul was inspired by the holy spirit?  Did Paul write it himself?

I am interested in the COMMAND from God, not what Paul did, not what the apostles did, or any theologian.

1) Do not call a man Rabbi
2) Do not call a man Father
3) Do not call a man Master

We are brethren.  We as brethren are equals.  No Bishops, presbyters, or Jewish instructors are over us.  That's why we are supposed to wash each others feet. 

When is the last time a Bishop scrubbed your feet?
When is the last time you called him Master and kissed up to him?
When is the last time your priest washed your feet?
When is the last time you called your priest "father" and kissed up to him?

We are equals.  That's why Yeshua said we are supposed to be brethren.
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« Reply #43 on: July 12, 2011, 05:01:00 PM »

OK, so we have one picture.  What it does not tell us is whether bishops only wash priests' feet, or even if this bishop only washed this priest's feet and no other.

In most cases, I have seen bishops wash a number of people's feet during the same rite, usually a priest is included because during 'normal business hours' the bishop runs the priest's life rather completely.  Thus, it is a reversal in a very personal way for both.

But, seriously, you weren't really thinking a single picture was going to impugne the entire Orthodox CHurch, did you?



Call no man Father, Rabbi, or Master.

Eastern Orthodox call their priests "Father" and Bishops "Master".

This is clear cut.

We should call the priests and Bishops "Brethren or Brothers or even "Bishop or Priest" is fine. 
This is because Christ told us "we are all brothers".

This is why your "metropolitan" should be bending over and washing your feet which was also commanded by God, as you should wash his.  But no, he's called master and people kiss his hand and hold him as more significant than themselves. 

Of course everybody wants to stick with "Father" to contort the disobedience to God with excuses, but nobody has talked about "Master".



That's clergy washing clergy's feet, not Bishops washing laymen's feet.  We are brethren.

So somebody made a point with a single photo.
I commented on that photo.

Tell me when is the last time EVERYBODY that your bishop washed your feet?  Well that would be obedience to God who said to do it.
When was the last time you called your bishop "Master"?  Well that would be disobedience to God.
When was the last time your priest washed your feet?  Again, Obedience to God.
When is the last time you called your priest "Father"?  Disobedience to God.

When was the last time you had to make excuses and need explanations for disobeying God?

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« Reply #44 on: July 12, 2011, 05:12:32 PM »

Yesh, only a fool thinks he is perfect in obeying God.

But, again you are dodging the real question: if you are so obedient, tell me if you have both your eyes and both your hands?

 Wink



OK, so we have one picture.  What it does not tell us is whether bishops only wash priests' feet, or even if this bishop only washed this priest's feet and no other.

In most cases, I have seen bishops wash a number of people's feet during the same rite, usually a priest is included because during 'normal business hours' the bishop runs the priest's life rather completely.  Thus, it is a reversal in a very personal way for both.

But, seriously, you weren't really thinking a single picture was going to impugne the entire Orthodox CHurch, did you?



Call no man Father, Rabbi, or Master.

Eastern Orthodox call their priests "Father" and Bishops "Master".

This is clear cut.

We should call the priests and Bishops "Brethren or Brothers or even "Bishop or Priest" is fine. 
This is because Christ told us "we are all brothers".

This is why your "metropolitan" should be bending over and washing your feet which was also commanded by God, as you should wash his.  But no, he's called master and people kiss his hand and hold him as more significant than themselves. 

Of course everybody wants to stick with "Father" to contort the disobedience to God with excuses, but nobody has talked about "Master".



That's clergy washing clergy's feet, not Bishops washing laymen's feet.  We are brethren.

So somebody made a point with a single photo.
I commented on that photo.

Tell me when is the last time EVERYBODY that your bishop washed your feet?  Well that would be obedience to God who said to do it.
When was the last time you called your bishop "Master"?  Well that would be disobedience to God.
When was the last time your priest washed your feet?  Again, Obedience to God.
When is the last time you called your priest "Father"?  Disobedience to God.

When was the last time you had to make excuses and need explanations for disobeying God?


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