OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 30, 2014, 12:56:56 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: language of divine liturgy  (Read 1391 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
JR
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: No idea
Jurisdiction: Athens
Posts: 381



« on: July 10, 2011, 06:28:03 AM »

Just a thought with questions...!

In Roman Catholicism the Mass was always said in Latin prior to Vatican council 2, then in the native language of what country the Mass was in there after.

I read that with Orthodoxy that the Divine Liturgy has always been said in the native language of what country it was in.

If this is the case, why does the Greek orthodox still use an ancient language that even the Greeks don't understand? why don't they change it to modern Greek? which is there native language.

Isn't this just the same as Catholicism using Latin, it is still a dead language.



« Last Edit: July 10, 2011, 06:28:28 AM by JR » Logged

"If you judge people, you have no time to love them".

Mother Teresa
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2011, 07:05:21 AM »

I think the comparison is weak. Really, the most extreme form of the use of outdated languages among Eastern Christians is the use of Church Slavonic among Slavic Christians. That is an old Slavic language, a grouping which is a subset of the Indo-European language family. So what would that compare to with the West? Latin being used among speakers of the Romance languages? But was that the extent of Rome's use of Latin in the Liturgy? Clearly not. Rome had Latin used in all sorts of language contexts, probably even some non-Indo-European. Greeks using using an older form of Greek would seem to be even less of a disassociation than Russians using Church Slavonic.

Not to justify this practice, but I think people often come to an exaggerated understanding of how disassociated the antiquated Orthodox liturgical languages are when they compare to Latin.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2011, 07:06:20 AM by deusveritasest » Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
akimori makoto
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Non-heretical Christian
Jurisdiction: Fully-sik-hektic archdiocese of Australia, bro
Posts: 3,126

No-one bound by fleshly pleasures is worthy ...


« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2011, 07:08:40 AM »

I think the comparison is weak. Really, the most extreme form of the use of outdated languages among Eastern Christians is the use of Church Slavonic among Slavic Christians. That is an old Slavic language, a grouping which is a subset of the Indo-European language family. So what would that compare to with the West? Latin being used among speakers of the Romance languages? But was that the extent of Rome's use of Latin in the Liturgy? Clearly not. Rome had Latin used in all sorts of language contexts, probably even some non-Indo-European. Greeks using using an older form of Greek would seem to be even less of a disassociation than Russians using Church Slavonic.

Not to justify this practice, but I think people often come to an exaggerated understanding of how disassociated the antiquated Orthodox liturgical languages are when they compare to Latin.

I think so, too, but I am sure we will see people disagreeing with us vociferously in this thread, based on recent experience (not saying such people are wrong).
Logged

The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.
Volnutt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Agnostic/Universalist
Posts: 3,107


« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2011, 07:29:02 AM »

Just a thought with questions...!

In Roman Catholicism the Mass was always said in Latin prior to Vatican council 2, then in the native language of what country the Mass was in there after.

I read that with Orthodoxy that the Divine Liturgy has always been said in the native language of what country it was in.

If this is the case, why does the Greek orthodox still use an ancient language that even the Greeks don't understand? why don't they change it to modern Greek? which is there native language.

Isn't this just the same as Catholicism using Latin, it is still a dead language.




As I understand it, a modern Greek worshiping in Koine would be like us trying to worship in Chaucer-speak; a little weird but totally doable. I think modern Greeks are just lazy. Of course I think that about many Anglophone KJV-haters too-so your mileage may vary.

Slavonic is more thorny. You may have a point there. Though, it was a vernacular-ish liturgy back in the day *shrug*. Ya take the good with the bad, I guess...

However, the Orthodox do have a really nice track record when it comes to non-Indo-Europeans, for example the Fox Aleut and Japanese liturgies.
Logged
Tikhon29605
High Elder
******
Online Online

Posts: 534


May I become Thy Tabernacle through Communion.


« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2011, 07:45:23 AM »

Just a thought with questions...!

In Roman Catholicism the Mass was always said in Latin prior to Vatican council 2, then in the native language of what country the Mass was in there after.

I read that with Orthodoxy that the Divine Liturgy has always been said in the native language of what country it was in.

If this is the case, why does the Greek orthodox still use an ancient language that even the Greeks don't understand? why don't they change it to modern Greek? which is there native language.

Isn't this just the same as Catholicism using Latin, it is still a dead language.






This is one area where there is a lot of incorrect information out there.  Perhaps the ideal in Orthodoxy is for everyone to worship in his own native language.  However, there are plenty of Orthodox who don not worship in the language of the common people.

Here are a few examples:

Russia:  As far as I know, there are no parishes in the Moscow Patriarchate that serve the Divine Liturgy in modern Russian.  Slavonic is used instead.  However, even with the use of Slavonic, sermons are still in contemporary Russian.  From what I have read, the Russian Church is now in the process of modernizing and updating the Slavonic language used in church to make it more understandable to the average Russian.   Therefore, comprehension should improve, at least somewhat.  Remember too, though, that Russian is used for other things besides the Divine Liturgy in Russia.  Akathists and Molebens are generally prayed in Russian, not Slavonic, so quite a lot of understanding goes on there.   Well educated Slavs can understand Church Slavonic, although I am told it is difficult.  Most Slavic nations do have language courses in Slavonic at the university level.  So it can be formally studied and learned, although I would think the numbers of people that actually learn it are rather small. I could be wrong.

Ukraine: Ukraine is divided into several different and often competing Orthodox jurisdictions.  It is not united and under one jurisdiction like Russia.  Because of that (and other issues) it is possible in Ukraine to attend a Divine Liturgy in modern Ukrainian. However, you will still find Slavonic Liturgies used in Ukraine as well, particularly in Moscow Patriarchate parishes in Ukraine. Although from what I have read, even the Moscow Patriarchate parishes there will sometimes have Ukrainian liturgies.  I believe the Kiev Patriarchate promotes the use of modern Ukrainian for the liturgy, though. Ukraine is going to be a mixed bag. Expect some variation.

Romania:  The Romanian Orthodox Church worships in Romanian from what I have been told. It is very easily understood by the Romanian faithful.  Since the Romanians are Latins and speak a Romance language, you are not going to find much demand for Slavonic liturgies there.  Apparently at one time the Romanian Church did worship in Slavonic, back in the 17th and 18th centuries.  However, it switched to the Romanian vernacular ages ago and seems very content with it now.

Serbia and Bulgaria: Both countries traditionally worshiped in Slavonic.  However, today having a Divine Liturgy in modern Serbian or Bulgarian is becoming more common.  The Church Slavonic language of the liturgy is closer to modern Bulgarian than any other language. So apparently, Slavonic has the capacity to be more readily understood by the Bulgarians that it is by the Russians or the Serbs, whose contemporary language is quite different. Nevertheless, if you travel to Serbia or Bulgaria, be prepared for most liturgies to be served in Church Slavonic.

Greece:  The Divine Liturgy in Greek is served in Koine Greek.  This is ancient Greek that was developed during the Hellenistic period. It is the Greek of the Septuagint, the Ecumenical Councils and the Church Fathers.  It is quite different from Modern Greek.  Having said that, sermons in Greece are going to be in the vernacular, in what is called Demotic Greek.  And those will be easily understood by the faithful.  I am told that up until the mid 1980's, the public schools in Greece offered courses in Koine Greek. Under that older system of education, those Greeks who wanted to learn the language of the Church could do so. However, I am informed that the public school of Greece no longer offer courses in Koine Greek, so there is probably a greater lack of understanding now than there was in the past.  There have been a couple of attempts to use modern Greek in the Liturgy, none of which have met with any success. So if you go to Greece, be prepared for Liturgies in Koine Greek.

Palestine, Jerusalem, Syria and Lebanon:  In Antiochian parishes in the Middle East Arabic is going to be the language of the liturgy.  The Antiochian parishes switched from Greek to Arabic back in the 1890s or even before in some places.  However, because they used Greek for so long, you might have a little Greek thrown in here and there, such as a "Kyrie, eleison" or an "Agios O Theos."  In Jerusalem itself, you can still encounter a lot of Greek at the Divine Liturgy, although Arabic is used there as well.

United States: The language will vary according to the ethnicity of the parish.  OCA and Antiochian parishes are going to use lots of English.  However, Slavonic is still used in the OCA in places. Some Arabic is still used by the Antiochians too.  ROCOR is going to use Slavonic for its Divine Liturgies and Russian for its sermons, unless it is a specific English language parish, of which ROCOR has quite a few. The Greeks will almost always do SOME of the Liturgy in Greek, although most of them do portions of it in English too.  Sermons will be in English generally, although I have seen parishes where the priest would give the sermon in English first, then preach it again in Greek. Serbian parishes will tend to use a mix of Serbian and Slavonic. Romanian parishes tend to use quite a bit of Romanian too, although they usually give the sermon in English.

I hope this helps.
Logged
JR
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: No idea
Jurisdiction: Athens
Posts: 381



« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2011, 08:43:33 AM »

Tikhon29605 thank you for the comprehensive answer, very informative.

I have a friend here who is Romanian and her church does the divine liturgy in her native tongue.

I am struggling to learn modern Greek, but koine Greek is much harder.

I think it would be nice to attend a service and understand all that is going on.

Maybe time will come when that happens.
Logged

"If you judge people, you have no time to love them".

Mother Teresa
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2011, 08:49:23 AM »

You're living in Greece?
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
JR
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: No idea
Jurisdiction: Athens
Posts: 381



« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2011, 08:55:13 AM »

You're living in Greece?

Yes, Athens
Logged

"If you judge people, you have no time to love them".

Mother Teresa
IreneOlinyk
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox (EP)
Posts: 203


« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2011, 01:22:36 PM »

I read that with Orthodoxy that the Divine Liturgy has always been said in the native language of what country it was in.


Not true if you read the history of the Russian Orthodox Chuch when the church became the tool of imperialism of the Russian government.
For example, when George was annexed to be part of the Russian Empire, the language of the liturgy was changed to Church Slavonic.
Also Church Slavonic in the Russian resencion was used in the Orthodox churches in Estonia, Latvia, and Finland.
Also in Ukraine, the priests were forced to use the Russian recension of Church Slavonic and sermons were in Russian not Ukrainian.
Logged
Gamliel
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Metropolis of San Francisco
Posts: 2,228



« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2011, 03:22:11 PM »

We use some Greek in our Liturgy.  I don't know any Greek, but when my priest launches into Greek in a couple sections, I either follow The English in my Liturgy book (it has the Greek and English in it) or I try to scan along in the Greek.  The pronunciation is similar between Byzantine and modern Greek, so I thought the modern Greeks would not have to put much effort into understanding it?
Logged
CRCulver
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Church of Finland and Romanian Orthodox Church
Posts: 1,159


St Stephen of Perm, missionary to speakers of Komi


WWW
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2011, 04:58:09 PM »

Not true if you read the history of the Russian Orthodox Chuch when the church became the tool of imperialism of the Russian government.
For example, when George was annexed to be part of the Russian Empire, the language of the liturgy was changed to Church Slavonic.
Also Church Slavonic in the Russian resencion was used in the Orthodox churches in Estonia, Latvia, and Finland.
Also in Ukraine, the priests were forced to use the Russian recension of Church Slavonic and sermons were in Russian not Ukrainian.

Plenty more examples. The old Komi liturgy translated by St. Stephen of Perm is now forbidden by the Russian Orthodox Church. The Chuvash gradually adopted Christianity and began to pray to God in their language, but the Russian Orthodox Church said that liturgies could only be held in Church Slavonic. Missionary efforts among some Siberian peoples were called off because their command of Russian was judged insufficient, rather than translations being made -- now evangelical Protestants are the only people representing Christianity in these regions.
Logged
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2011, 07:41:26 PM »


Are you an immigrant?
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
JR
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: No idea
Jurisdiction: Athens
Posts: 381



« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2011, 04:45:43 AM »


No, European. why?
Logged

"If you judge people, you have no time to love them".

Mother Teresa
JR
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: No idea
Jurisdiction: Athens
Posts: 381



« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2011, 04:48:56 AM »


 rather than translations being made -- now evangelical Protestants are the only people representing Christianity in these regions.

It is a shame they did not do the translations, instead of allowing the Protestants to take over.
Logged

"If you judge people, you have no time to love them".

Mother Teresa
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2011, 05:01:25 AM »


Oh, you mean you are a citizen of the European Union and therefore did not need to register as an immigrant with the State of Greece?

I forgot about that situation in the EU. But I was referring to immigrant in the broader sense not necessarily attached to citizenship.
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #15 on: July 11, 2011, 01:55:48 PM »

Russia:  As far as I know, there are no parishes in the Moscow Patriarchate that serve the Divine Liturgy in modern Russian.

AFAIK there is one.
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
Iconodule
Uranopolitan
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA (Diocese of Eastern Pennsylvania)
Posts: 7,048


"My god is greater."


« Reply #16 on: July 11, 2011, 03:31:46 PM »


 rather than translations being made -- now evangelical Protestants are the only people representing Christianity in these regions.

It is a shame they did not do the translations, instead of allowing the Protestants to take over.

I find this rigidity incredible. Thank God that Sts. Innocent, Herman, etc. didn't carry the same attitude to Alaska.
Logged

"A riddle or the cricket's cry
Is to doubt a fit reply." - William Blake
Tags: Greek  English  liturgy  old  new  church 
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.08 seconds with 44 queries.