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Author Topic: More of the Same Old Jew Bashing  (Read 16811 times) Average Rating: 0
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theo philosopher
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« Reply #405 on: July 21, 2011, 08:09:44 PM »

In Romans Paul spends a great amount of time writing about the Jewish people and how they are still chosen (though "chosen" obviously lacks salvation, they are still "God's people" in a manner of speaking). Certainly we can practice some exegetical acrobatics, but a straight reading of the text displays a few key truths:

1) Those who practice Judaism are in rebellion to God
2) The Jewish people haven't been forsaken and there is a remnant of them who still believe and follow God by following Christ
3) We are to pray for their salvation
4) We are not to act haughtily over them now that we have been grafted into the branch while they have been broken off (some of them, not the entire people).

With the above in mind, certainly we can criticize the nation-state of Israel (though we should equally condemn the actions of the Palestinians who purposefully target civilians), we can even criticize how the Jews supposedly talk about Christians in closed corners.

But when we begin to speak of vast conspiracies or act flippantly towards an entire race and/or religion of people, what do we accomplish for Christ? How easily we forget, or deny, that these Jews are the kin of our Lord and Savior. They are blood relatives of the Theotokos and all the first Holy Disciples. That they have fallen away should sadden us and remind us of how we too were fallen at one point. We should pray for their salvation and serve them. If the conspiracies are true and the Jews run the world, then I hope in my service to them they see Christ. If the conspiracy theories are false (and they are) then I should still seek to love the Jew. Our faith comes from the Jews, our Lord was a Jew, and salvation came through their tribe - that they rebel against God is a matter between them and God.

My great-grandfather ran into problems in Russia because he was a Jew. The Orthodox Church in Russia was complicit with some persecution my great-grandfather faced. Shall I hate the Orthodox Church? Of course not, for it has humans within its body and humans make mistakes. My grandfather was kicked out of his family after converting to Christianity and they took away his inheritance, which caused major financial troubles for him. It even harmed his kids as none of them went to college because they could not afford it. In fact, among my cousins, only my brother and I have been to college (that's out of 28 cousins). Should I hate all Jews for the actions of my grandfather's family? After all, they acted within their faith. But no, I shouldn't hate them, for Christ said we would suffer for His name and that all persecution was ultimately directed at Him (not claiming I have been persecuted).

The point in all of this is that the center of the Christian faith is love. Not just a feeling, but active, creative, central love. When we bash another religion, even if they're wrong, or an entire race, even if individual members have done horrible things, how are we displaying love? How are we letting Christ shine through us? We should be willing to wash the feet of the Palestinian and the Israeli, the Islamic terrorist and the Neo-Nazi, and the list goes on. Certainly we should stand against injustice, but such a stand should be made behind the strength of love, not behind the power of insults.

Anyway, that's my piece. Flame away.
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« Reply #406 on: July 22, 2011, 01:20:20 AM »

In Romans Paul spends a great amount of time writing about the Jewish people and how they are still chosen (though "chosen" obviously lacks salvation, they are still "God's people" in a manner of speaking).
Some people have questioned as to why God would choose this one group and leave out others, such as the Chinese for example. Was there some reason to reject the Chinese people?
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« Reply #407 on: July 22, 2011, 01:29:53 AM »

Truth is love. Ever heard of speaking the truth in love? Or the admonition to Christians not to love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth? Letting Jews away with murder isn't the way to show them 'love'!

I read this entire thread and I didn't see any insults at all. I see some folks pointing out inconvenient truths that certain others on here would rather not have discussed here. But I fail to see how that translates into hate - or how suppressing these inconvenient facts would equal love. If anything this would be an example of loving in word and in tongue because it gives them a free pass just because they call themselves Jews. Real love would call them to repentance and salvation. St. Paul and the others did a lot more than passively pray for them - they marched right into their synagogues and told them what was up!

Sometimes love is telling that truth that someone doesn't want to hear.

Add to that the fact that they did 9/11 and used their media and government positions to blame it all on Arab Muslims, and we have ourselves a Christian predicament don't we? Do we show love for criminals and murderers by letting them get away with their crimes? I think not! I've studied 9/11 - a lot. It is my honest conviction that the Arabs were framed up by the Israelis and by powerful Jews in the US government. Does this mean that I hate anyone? NO!

And where is the love for the Arabs & Muslims being killed by the hundreds and hundreds of THOUSANDS? Being murdered in illegal wars for things they never did?

"Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor." - Exodus 16

"So then, putting away falsehood, let us all speak the truth to our neighbors, for we are all members of one another." - Ephesians 4:25

"Ye that love the Lord, hate evil; the Lord preserves the souls of his saints; he shall deliver them from the hand of sinners. Light is sprung up for the righteous, and gladness for the upright in heart." - Psalm 97:10,11

Can't someone try to tell the truth without hate for someone? Just because we hate evil doesn't mean we hate the evildoer. Personally I feel sorry for them. The sooner they face the truth - the sooner they can be saved.
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« Reply #408 on: July 22, 2011, 03:38:15 AM »

I like what theo philosopher said. I think it's the most consistent with what an Orthodox Christian viewpoint should be.
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« Reply #409 on: July 22, 2011, 06:09:03 AM »

I see we have an old guest back under a new name (*cough cough*). Try as he may, he can't make the same old drivel sound like anything else. And as much as he tries to call hate something other than hate, it's still hate.

I wonder what things would be like if he could have given all that energy to something positive?  Huh
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« Reply #410 on: July 22, 2011, 08:44:12 AM »

In Romans Paul spends a great amount of time writing about the Jewish people and how they are still chosen (though "chosen" obviously lacks salvation, they are still "God's people" in a manner of speaking).
Some people have questioned as to why God would choose this one group and leave out others, such as the Chinese for example. Was there some reason to reject the Chinese people?

The choosing of the Jewish people isn't the rejection of any other people, rather they are the people through whom salvation came for all. As to why God would choose the Jews, I don't know. Ask Him. All I know is what Scripture says, that the Jews were chosen to bring salvation to the world. Though the vast majority (not all) have rejected their Messiah, that salvation has become available to all men.


As for Stephen, I really see no need to respond. Perhaps you should concern yourself with your own salvation first and your own holiness before concerning yourself with the salvation of the Jews.
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« Reply #411 on: July 22, 2011, 02:29:25 PM »

I'll tell you what I see going on, too often, in churches...and I say this as someone who was born Jewish, and is now a  Christian.

I see a lot of nonJewish Christians who are afraid to tell the truth as the Gospel and the rest of the New Testament says it.

I think there is a fear of being thought "antisemitic", just as many whites dance around the truth of the race question for fear of being called "racist".

The truth is often painful and not politically correct, but that doesn't make it any less the truth.

The New Testament says that the Jews were the chosen people of God, but it is very clear, from even just a cursory reading of the Scriptures, that the Jews (physically speaking) are no longer the chosen people of God. The Church (which is composed of both Jewish Christians and nonJewish Christians) are Israel. "Israel" has not been dumped for Gentiles: what has happened is the COMPOSITION of what constitutes "Israel" has changed. It went from being 100% national Israel (physical Jews), to 100% anyone who accepts Christ, no matter their background.

The Scriptures also refer to the unconverted Jews as enemies of Christianity, as blinded. You can't deny that for if you do, you deny the truth.
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« Reply #412 on: July 22, 2011, 02:36:24 PM »

When someone becomes a Priest are the rest of us rejected? Are we labeled the "Not Priests".. God chooses people based on what is necessary to bring salvation into the world.  

The Jewish people accomplished that mission. Salvation was brought into the World. Had God chosen the Chinese there would have been many philosophical and religious complications overlaying the appearance of the Messiah. Yes? Had he chosen American Indians or the Inca's for an extreme example, would the news of salvation reached the rest of the World. Not likely..
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« Reply #413 on: July 22, 2011, 03:12:38 PM »

Quote
Add to that the fact that they did 9/11 and used their media and government positions to blame it all on Arab Muslims, and we have ourselves a Christian predicament don't we?

Nah, just your bog standard false dilemma....
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« Reply #414 on: July 22, 2011, 03:17:24 PM »

When someone becomes a Priest are the rest of us rejected? Are we labeled the "Not Priests".. God chooses people based on what is necessary to bring salvation into the world.  

The Jewish people accomplished that mission. Salvation was brought into the World. Had God chosen the Chinese there would have been many philosophical and religious complications overlaying the appearance of the Messiah. Yes? Had he chosen American Indians or the Inca's for an extreme example, would the news of salvation reached the rest of the World. Not likely..

To be honest I always found this kind of reasoning strange, and I'm not just talking about your arguments, Marc, but in general. For instance, the idea that God chose the Jews because only they could have received the Law and the Prophets, or that the first Gentile converts were Greeks, because they had the philosophical framework with which to accept the truth. Isn't everything possible with God? If God had become Incarnate among the Chinese or the Americans, couldn't He have figured out a way of converting the world that way, rather than through the Jews and the Greeks? There's nothing inevitable about Jewish or Hellenic "chosenness", although I totally believe there was something Providential.

It seems rather that the reasons God chose this or that nation are utterly unknown to us. I believe God prepared the Jews through the Law because He would later become Incarnate among them, but it could have been any nation. He also prepared the Greeks with their philosophy, but again, could have been any nation. But the fact of His choosing them is in no way predictable from our point of view.
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« Reply #415 on: July 22, 2011, 04:09:48 PM »

I'll tell you what I see going on, too often, in churches...and I say this as someone who was born Jewish, and is now a  Christian.

I see a lot of nonJewish Christians who are afraid to tell the truth as the Gospel and the rest of the New Testament says it.

I think there is a fear of being thought "antisemitic", just as many whites dance around the truth of the race question for fear of being called "racist".

The truth is often painful and not politically correct, but that doesn't make it any less the truth.

The New Testament says that the Jews were the chosen people of God, but it is very clear, from even just a cursory reading of the Scriptures, that the Jews (physically speaking) are no longer the chosen people of God. The Church (which is composed of both Jewish Christians and nonJewish Christians) are Israel. "Israel" has not been dumped for Gentiles: what has happened is the COMPOSITION of what constitutes "Israel" has changed. It went from being 100% national Israel (physical Jews), to 100% anyone who accepts Christ, no matter their background.

The Scriptures also refer to the unconverted Jews as enemies of Christianity, as blinded. You can't deny that for if you do, you deny the truth.

Telling me you were born Jewish doesn't hold any water with me. אני נולדתי גם היהודית. אתם יכולים עדיין שונאים יהודים גם אם אתה אחד.

What I said stands true, as does what Paul says, that the Jews are still chosen and a remnant remain faithful to God.
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« Reply #416 on: July 22, 2011, 04:30:22 PM »

How odd of God
To Choose the Jew
But not so odd
As those who choose
The Jewish God
And hate the Jew

- Anonymous
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« Reply #417 on: July 22, 2011, 04:39:36 PM »

I'll tell you what I see going on, too often, in churches...and I say this as someone who was born Jewish, and is now a  Christian.

I see a lot of nonJewish Christians who are afraid to tell the truth as the Gospel and the rest of the New Testament says it.

I think there is a fear of being thought "antisemitic", just as many whites dance around the truth of the race question for fear of being called "racist".

The truth is often painful and not politically correct, but that doesn't make it any less the truth.

The New Testament says that the Jews were the chosen people of God, but it is very clear, from even just a cursory reading of the Scriptures, that the Jews (physically speaking) are no longer the chosen people of God. The Church (which is composed of both Jewish Christians and nonJewish Christians) are Israel. "Israel" has not been dumped for Gentiles: what has happened is the COMPOSITION of what constitutes "Israel" has changed. It went from being 100% national Israel (physical Jews), to 100% anyone who accepts Christ, no matter their background.

The Scriptures also refer to the unconverted Jews as enemies of Christianity, as blinded. You can't deny that for if you do, you deny the truth.

Telling me you were born Jewish doesn't hold any water with me. אני נולדתי גם היהודית. אתם יכולים עדיין שונאים יהודים גם אם אתה אחד.

What I said stands true, as does what Paul says, that the Jews are still chosen and a remnant remain faithful to God.

Right, as long as we recognize that "chosen" has what is obviously a highly mysterious and probably eschatological significance. Continuing Jewish chosenness does NOT mean they are guaranteed salvation simply because of their race, which is what certain Judaizing ecumenists and evangelicals have been preaching (e.g. John Hagee).
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« Reply #418 on: July 22, 2011, 04:49:40 PM »

I'll tell you what I see going on, too often, in churches...and I say this as someone who was born Jewish, and is now a  Christian.

I see a lot of nonJewish Christians who are afraid to tell the truth as the Gospel and the rest of the New Testament says it.

I think there is a fear of being thought "antisemitic", just as many whites dance around the truth of the race question for fear of being called "racist".

The truth is often painful and not politically correct, but that doesn't make it any less the truth.

The New Testament says that the Jews were the chosen people of God, but it is very clear, from even just a cursory reading of the Scriptures, that the Jews (physically speaking) are no longer the chosen people of God. The Church (which is composed of both Jewish Christians and nonJewish Christians) are Israel. "Israel" has not been dumped for Gentiles: what has happened is the COMPOSITION of what constitutes "Israel" has changed. It went from being 100% national Israel (physical Jews), to 100% anyone who accepts Christ, no matter their background.

The Scriptures also refer to the unconverted Jews as enemies of Christianity, as blinded. You can't deny that for if you do, you deny the truth.

Telling me you were born Jewish doesn't hold any water with me. אני נולדתי גם היהודית. אתם יכולים עדיין שונאים יהודים גם אם אתה אחד.

What I said stands true, as does what Paul says, that the Jews are still chosen and a remnant remain faithful to God.

Right, as long as we recognize that "chosen" has what is obviously a highly mysterious and probably eschatological significance. Continuing Jewish chosenness does NOT mean they are guaranteed salvation simply because of their race, which is what certain Judaizing ecumenists and evangelicals have been preaching (e.g. John Hagee).

Correct, which I hope I stressed that earlier. If not, I would say that being "chosen" as a Jew simply doesn't save a person, it never has (as Scripture is clear on this issue). However, for whatever reason God has chosen the Jewish people as a race and though they are in rebellion (much of my family is included on that), a few stand as a faithful remnant to God, worshiping with our "grafted" brothers and sisters, hoping that one day our people will give up their rebellion towards God.
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« Reply #419 on: July 22, 2011, 05:03:42 PM »

I'll tell you what I see going on, too often, in churches...and I say this as someone who was born Jewish, and is now a  Christian.

I see a lot of nonJewish Christians who are afraid to tell the truth as the Gospel and the rest of the New Testament says it.

I think there is a fear of being thought "antisemitic", just as many whites dance around the truth of the race question for fear of being called "racist".

The truth is often painful and not politically correct, but that doesn't make it any less the truth.

The New Testament says that the Jews were the chosen people of God, but it is very clear, from even just a cursory reading of the Scriptures, that the Jews (physically speaking) are no longer the chosen people of God. The Church (which is composed of both Jewish Christians and nonJewish Christians) are Israel. "Israel" has not been dumped for Gentiles: what has happened is the COMPOSITION of what constitutes "Israel" has changed. It went from being 100% national Israel (physical Jews), to 100% anyone who accepts Christ, no matter their background.

The Scriptures also refer to the unconverted Jews as enemies of Christianity, as blinded. You can't deny that for if you do, you deny the truth.

Telling me you were born Jewish doesn't hold any water with me. אני נולדתי גם היהודית. אתם יכולים עדיין שונאים יהודים גם אם אתה אחד.

What I said stands true, as does what Paul says, that the Jews are still chosen and a remnant remain faithful to God.

Jeremiah 31:31-37 is something you might want to read, as well as St Matthew 21:28-43 and also St Matthew 23:37-39.


I find it amazing that we can even have this discussion and overlook these clear teachings of Christ Himself.


While it is true that St Paul said that God has not cast off Israel (Romans 11:1), he also explains just what constitutes "Israel" (Romans 2:28-29)
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« Reply #420 on: July 22, 2011, 05:07:55 PM »

I'll tell you what I see going on, too often, in churches...and I say this as someone who was born Jewish, and is now a  Christian.

I see a lot of nonJewish Christians who are afraid to tell the truth as the Gospel and the rest of the New Testament says it.

I think there is a fear of being thought "antisemitic", just as many whites dance around the truth of the race question for fear of being called "racist".

The truth is often painful and not politically correct, but that doesn't make it any less the truth.

The New Testament says that the Jews were the chosen people of God, but it is very clear, from even just a cursory reading of the Scriptures, that the Jews (physically speaking) are no longer the chosen people of God. The Church (which is composed of both Jewish Christians and nonJewish Christians) are Israel. "Israel" has not been dumped for Gentiles: what has happened is the COMPOSITION of what constitutes "Israel" has changed. It went from being 100% national Israel (physical Jews), to 100% anyone who accepts Christ, no matter their background.

The Scriptures also refer to the unconverted Jews as enemies of Christianity, as blinded. You can't deny that for if you do, you deny the truth.

Telling me you were born Jewish doesn't hold any water with me. אני נולדתי גם היהודית. אתם יכולים עדיין שונאים יהודים גם אם אתה אחד.

What I said stands true, as does what Paul says, that the Jews are still chosen and a remnant remain faithful to God.

Jeremiah 31:31-37 is something you might want to read, as well as St Matthew 21:28-43 and also St Matthew 23:37-39.


I find it amazing that we can even have this discussion and overlook these clear teachings of Christ Himself.


While it is true that St Paul said that God has off Israel (Romans 11:1), he also explains just what constitutes "Israel" (Romans 2:28-29)
No, that doesn't work. If Paul means the Church in Romans 10-12, then how can it be said that the Church as rejected God, but there is still a remnant?

He means the race of Jews in Romans, not the Church.
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« Reply #421 on: July 22, 2011, 05:09:09 PM »

Had God chosen the Chinese there would have been many philosophical and religious complications overlaying the appearance of the Messiah.
This seems to border on vicious racism and discrimination against the beautiful Chinese people and their Oriental culture and way of life.
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« Reply #422 on: July 22, 2011, 06:56:10 PM »

Had God chosen the Chinese there would have been many philosophical and religious complications overlaying the appearance of the Messiah.
This seems to border on vicious racism and discrimination against the beautiful Chinese people and their Oriental culture and way of life.

I don't think he meant it in a racist way, but in the sense that somehow Chinese traditions and philosophy would be deeply incompatible with the Gospel, I suppose in a way the Jewish law or Greek philosophy are not. Personally, I also find this assertion questionable. Fr Seraphim Rose was well known for his appreciation of Taoist philosophy and personally he thought it could be considered a precursor to Christianity. That in itself may be questionable, but at any rate it's not obvious to me the Chinese would be at some kind of disadvantage. In fact, when you consider Divine Providence, which can accomplish anything, I would say the idea some race could be invincibly deaf to the Gospel possibly a dangerous notion.

That being said, I think there may be something in the idea that some nations are more worthy than others to hear the truth, in the sense that some nations, on average, have cooperated more than others with Providence to discover the truth and follow God's law to the best of their ability (the law written in their conscience). Perhaps in some way the Chinese had proven themselves unworthy. But I am speculating wildly here. God moves in mysterious ways.
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« Reply #423 on: July 22, 2011, 07:14:37 PM »

Why do some people refer to Jews as a "race"? We're not a race, we're a religio-nation, which means an ethnic group that (usually) has its own religion. Hitler is the one who said Jews are a "race".
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« Reply #424 on: July 22, 2011, 07:25:57 PM »

Why do some people refer to Jews as a "race"? We're not a race, we're a religio-nation, which means an ethnic group that (usually) has its own religion. Hitler is the one who said Jews are a "race".

I was using "race" in a broader sense that includes any kind of ethnic group or "religio-nation". Genetically it does appear that the links tying all branches of the Jewish nation together are thin; that being said, certain parts of Jewry are more clearly defined genetically, such as the Ashkenazi Jews.
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« Reply #425 on: July 22, 2011, 07:31:58 PM »

Why do some people refer to Jews as a "race"? We're not a race, we're a religio-nation, which means an ethnic group that (usually) has its own religion. Hitler is the one who said Jews are a "race".

Romans 9:3 has Paul saying that he is of the same bloodline as the Jews who reject Christ. It reads, in part, "συγγενων μου κατα σαρκα (suggenon mou kata sarka)." If we go with the idea he's presenting, it's easy to see he's saying "bloodline." Regardless, he is saying that he is related to those ("of the same flesh") who reject Christ, showing that their beliefs don't impact his view of them being a race.

Likewise, if we take Romans 9:5 into account, to deny the Jews are a race is almost to deny the humanity of Christ, for Paul says, "To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen."

On top of that, we have numerous passages saying that salvation comes through the Jews and then to the Greeks, making a distinction in race, not ideology. To deny the Jews are a race is to deny the prophecies concerning Christ.

Then we have Romans 11, which opens with:

I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? “Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.” But what is God's reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.

But prior to this and after this Paul speaks of how the people have rejected God. So in this case, you can't say, "Well this is referring to the Church." How can the Church have a remnant faithful to God within itself? One cannot be unfaithful to God and be in the Church, so all within the Church would be faithful, thus no need for a remnant. Rather, Paul is speaking of ethnic Israel.

I notice that you do a lot of questioning and attacking other people's positions, but never defend your own. Why is this?
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« Reply #426 on: July 22, 2011, 07:52:51 PM »

Why did you start up a dead an ugly thread without adding much too it other than a lot of words to say what others have already?
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« Reply #427 on: July 22, 2011, 10:15:45 PM »

When someone becomes a Priest are the rest of us rejected? Are we labeled the "Not Priests".. God chooses people based on what is necessary to bring salvation into the world.  

The Jewish people accomplished that mission. Salvation was brought into the World. Had God chosen the Chinese there would have been many philosophical and religious complications overlaying the appearance of the Messiah. Yes? Had he chosen American Indians or the Inca's for an extreme example, would the news of salvation reached the rest of the World. Not likely..

To be honest I always found this kind of reasoning strange, and I'm not just talking about your arguments, Marc, but in general. For instance, the idea that God chose the Jews because only they could have received the Law and the Prophets, or that the first Gentile converts were Greeks, because they had the philosophical framework with which to accept the truth. Isn't everything possible with God? If God had become Incarnate among the Chinese or the Americans, couldn't He have figured out a way of converting the world that way, rather than through the Jews and the Greeks? There's nothing inevitable about Jewish or Hellenic "chosenness", although I totally believe there was something Providential.

It seems rather that the reasons God chose this or that nation are utterly unknown to us. I believe God prepared the Jews through the Law because He would later become Incarnate among them, but it could have been any nation. He also prepared the Greeks with their philosophy, but again, could have been any nation. But the fact of His choosing them is in no way predictable from our point of view.

Forgive me but I think you are making a specious argument. Yes of course, God can do anything. He can make the Moon disappear and he can make the Earth stop spinning on it's axis.

But hasn't he reveled a propensity to cooperate with both Man and Nature? So the best possible way for Salvation to enter the World after the Fall was via the Jewish People. They already had a full blown concept of the Messiah and as you said had been prepared in a way that was unique and not found anywhere else. And, that's exactly what happened so we really don't need to speculate too much.
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« Reply #428 on: July 22, 2011, 10:26:48 PM »

All I'm saying is that Jews are not a race per se, but a PEOPLE. The same as Italians, Greeks or the English are. Being Jewish is not a religion only, but neither is it a race.

Most Jews dislike being referred to as a "race", not only because it is not accurate, but also because Hitler called Jews a race, and used that premise to annihilate them.
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« Reply #429 on: July 22, 2011, 10:49:23 PM »

So the best possible way for Salvation to enter the World after the Fall was via the Jewish People.
I don't see why white people think that it would not be as good for the world if Salvation entered the world after the Fall via the Chinese people.
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« Reply #430 on: July 22, 2011, 11:14:49 PM »

I really think some of you may be beyond help.

It seems to me that Xenia understands the Gospel better than 9/10 of the people claiming to be Christians (Orthodox Christians no less!) on here. Yet, at the same time those who don't seem to understand are the rudest and the most condescending of all. Someone like me shows up who you disagrees with and you assume I'm some other person (who dared to disagree with you), ridiculing me and calling me names, sockpuppet, etc. Maybe you all should go be Jews for a while, and learn a thing or two.


What part of this is so hard to fathom?

“They are the enemies of the cross of Christ.”

- Phillipians 3:18

“Because finding fault with them, He says: ‘Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a New Covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah - not according to the Covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My Covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. (…) In that He says, “A New Covenant,” He has made the first obsolete.”

- Hebrews 8:8-13

“See! Your house is left to you desolate; for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ “

- Matthew 23

“For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an anti-Christ.”

- II John 1:7

“You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. (…) He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

- John 8

“You do not believe, because you are not of My sheep,”

- John 10:26

“The Jews killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out, and displease God and oppose all men by hindering us from speaking to the nations that they may be saved – so as always to fill up the measure of their sins.”

- I Thessalonians 2:15-16

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« Reply #431 on: July 22, 2011, 11:44:16 PM »

When someone becomes a Priest are the rest of us rejected? Are we labeled the "Not Priests".. God chooses people based on what is necessary to bring salvation into the world.  

The Jewish people accomplished that mission. Salvation was brought into the World. Had God chosen the Chinese there would have been many philosophical and religious complications overlaying the appearance of the Messiah. Yes? Had he chosen American Indians or the Inca's for an extreme example, would the news of salvation reached the rest of the World. Not likely..

To be honest I always found this kind of reasoning strange, and I'm not just talking about your arguments, Marc, but in general. For instance, the idea that God chose the Jews because only they could have received the Law and the Prophets, or that the first Gentile converts were Greeks, because they had the philosophical framework with which to accept the truth. Isn't everything possible with God? If God had become Incarnate among the Chinese or the Americans, couldn't He have figured out a way of converting the world that way, rather than through the Jews and the Greeks? There's nothing inevitable about Jewish or Hellenic "chosenness", although I totally believe there was something Providential.

It seems rather that the reasons God chose this or that nation are utterly unknown to us. I believe God prepared the Jews through the Law because He would later become Incarnate among them, but it could have been any nation. He also prepared the Greeks with their philosophy, but again, could have been any nation. But the fact of His choosing them is in no way predictable from our point of view.

Forgive me but I think you are making a specious argument. Yes of course, God can do anything. He can make the Moon disappear and he can make the Earth stop spinning on it's axis.

But hasn't he reveled a propensity to cooperate with both Man and Nature? So the best possible way for Salvation to enter the World after the Fall was via the Jewish People. They already had a full blown concept of the Messiah and as you said had been prepared in a way that was unique and not found anywhere else. And, that's exactly what happened so we really don't need to speculate too much.

This opinion seems almost dogmatic to me. Only the Hebrews were the people who could throughout history cooperate enough (and look how little it was!) with God and produce the one human being ever that could be who could throughout her entire life say yes to God.

The Theotokos.

End of discussion.

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« Reply #432 on: July 22, 2011, 11:51:40 PM »

So the best possible way for Salvation to enter the World after the Fall was via the Jewish People.
I don't see why white people think that it would not be as good for the world if Salvation entered the world after the Fall via the Chinese people.

I think it actually was the Lord God himself who made that decision... maybe it was just a random choice or a careless error but I doubt it.

If Jesus had been born Chinese at the same time in history, what would have been the religious and philosophical context?
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« Reply #433 on: July 23, 2011, 03:25:43 AM »

I'll tell you what I see going on, too often, in churches...and I say this as someone who was born Jewish, and is now a  Christian.

I see a lot of nonJewish Christians who are afraid to tell the truth as the Gospel and the rest of the New Testament says it.

I think there is a fear of being thought "antisemitic", just as many whites dance around the truth of the race question for fear of being called "racist".

The truth is often painful and not politically correct, but that doesn't make it any less the truth.

The New Testament says that the Jews were the chosen people of God, but it is very clear, from even just a cursory reading of the Scriptures, that the Jews (physically speaking) are no longer the chosen people of God. The Church (which is composed of both Jewish Christians and nonJewish Christians) are Israel. "Israel" has not been dumped for Gentiles: what has happened is the COMPOSITION of what constitutes "Israel" has changed. It went from being 100% national Israel (physical Jews), to 100% anyone who accepts Christ, no matter their background.

The Scriptures also refer to the unconverted Jews as enemies of Christianity, as blinded. You can't deny that for if you do, you deny the truth.

Telling me you were born Jewish doesn't hold any water with me. אני נולדתי גם היהודית. אתם יכולים עדיין שונאים יהודים גם אם אתה אחד.

What I said stands true, as does what Paul says, that the Jews are still chosen and a remnant remain faithful to God.
Could we get a translation of this foreign-language statement, please? Yes, this is a moderatorial directive.
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« Reply #434 on: July 23, 2011, 03:38:17 AM »

Forgive me but I think you are making a specious argument. Yes of course, God can do anything. He can make the Moon disappear and he can make the Earth stop spinning on it's axis.

But hasn't he reveled a propensity to cooperate with both Man and Nature? So the best possible way for Salvation to enter the World after the Fall was via the Jewish People. They already had a full blown concept of the Messiah and as you said had been prepared in a way that was unique and not found anywhere else. And, that's exactly what happened so we really don't need to speculate too much.

Such a full blown concept that they denied him and wanted his death?
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« Reply #435 on: July 23, 2011, 04:07:58 AM »

I'll tell you what I see going on, too often, in churches...and I say this as someone who was born Jewish, and is now a  Christian.

I see a lot of nonJewish Christians who are afraid to tell the truth as the Gospel and the rest of the New Testament says it.

I think there is a fear of being thought "antisemitic", just as many whites dance around the truth of the race question for fear of being called "racist".

The truth is often painful and not politically correct, but that doesn't make it any less the truth.

The New Testament says that the Jews were the chosen people of God, but it is very clear, from even just a cursory reading of the Scriptures, that the Jews (physically speaking) are no longer the chosen people of God. The Church (which is composed of both Jewish Christians and nonJewish Christians) are Israel. "Israel" has not been dumped for Gentiles: what has happened is the COMPOSITION of what constitutes "Israel" has changed. It went from being 100% national Israel (physical Jews), to 100% anyone who accepts Christ, no matter their background.

The Scriptures also refer to the unconverted Jews as enemies of Christianity, as blinded. You can't deny that for if you do, you deny the truth.

Telling me you were born Jewish doesn't hold any water with me. אני נולדתי גם היהודית. אתם יכולים עדיין שונאים יהודים גם אם אתה אחד.

What I said stands true, as does what Paul says, that the Jews are still chosen and a remnant remain faithful to God.
Could we get a translation of this foreign-language statement, please? Yes, this is a moderatorial directive.

http://translate.google.com/

Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
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« Reply #436 on: July 23, 2011, 06:05:10 AM »

When someone becomes a Priest are the rest of us rejected? Are we labeled the "Not Priests".. God chooses people based on what is necessary to bring salvation into the world.  

The Jewish people accomplished that mission. Salvation was brought into the World. Had God chosen the Chinese there would have been many philosophical and religious complications overlaying the appearance of the Messiah. Yes? Had he chosen American Indians or the Inca's for an extreme example, would the news of salvation reached the rest of the World. Not likely..

To be honest I always found this kind of reasoning strange, and I'm not just talking about your arguments, Marc, but in general. For instance, the idea that God chose the Jews because only they could have received the Law and the Prophets, or that the first Gentile converts were Greeks, because they had the philosophical framework with which to accept the truth. Isn't everything possible with God? If God had become Incarnate among the Chinese or the Americans, couldn't He have figured out a way of converting the world that way, rather than through the Jews and the Greeks? There's nothing inevitable about Jewish or Hellenic "chosenness", although I totally believe there was something Providential.

It seems rather that the reasons God chose this or that nation are utterly unknown to us. I believe God prepared the Jews through the Law because He would later become Incarnate among them, but it could have been any nation. He also prepared the Greeks with their philosophy, but again, could have been any nation. But the fact of His choosing them is in no way predictable from our point of view.

Forgive me but I think you are making a specious argument. Yes of course, God can do anything. He can make the Moon disappear and he can make the Earth stop spinning on it's axis.

But hasn't he reveled a propensity to cooperate with both Man and Nature? So the best possible way for Salvation to enter the World after the Fall was via the Jewish People. They already had a full blown concept of the Messiah and as you said had been prepared in a way that was unique and not found anywhere else. And, that's exactly what happened so we really don't need to speculate too much.

OK, and where exactly did they get the concept of the Messiah from? I suppose you think they came up with it all by themselves without any divine intervention? I don't know whether or not we are talking at cross-purposes here, but you seem to be saying that the Jews initiated the dispensation by being holier than the rest of the world. Isn't it the other way around? Didn't God make the Jews holy in order to enact His dispensation through them? What the Jews did is cooperate in this dispensation, although even then many of them, and sometimes most of them, did not cooperate, with only a remnant of the Jewish nation actually accepting God's will (such as in the time of Christ).
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« Reply #437 on: July 23, 2011, 06:46:41 AM »



OK, and where exactly did they get the concept of the Messiah from? I suppose you think they came up with it all by themselves without any divine intervention? I don't know whether or not we are talking at cross-purposes here, but you seem to be saying that the Jews initiated the dispensation by being holier than the rest of the world. Isn't it the other way around? Didn't God make the Jews holy in order to enact His dispensation through them? What the Jews did is cooperate in this dispensation, although even then many of them, and sometimes most of them, did not cooperate, with only a remnant of the Jewish nation actually accepting God's will (such as in the time of Christ).

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« Reply #438 on: July 23, 2011, 10:30:22 AM »

I'll tell you what I see going on, too often, in churches...and I say this as someone who was born Jewish, and is now a  Christian.

I see a lot of nonJewish Christians who are afraid to tell the truth as the Gospel and the rest of the New Testament says it.

I think there is a fear of being thought "antisemitic", just as many whites dance around the truth of the race question for fear of being called "racist".

The truth is often painful and not politically correct, but that doesn't make it any less the truth.

The New Testament says that the Jews were the chosen people of God, but it is very clear, from even just a cursory reading of the Scriptures, that the Jews (physically speaking) are no longer the chosen people of God. The Church (which is composed of both Jewish Christians and nonJewish Christians) are Israel. "Israel" has not been dumped for Gentiles: what has happened is the COMPOSITION of what constitutes "Israel" has changed. It went from being 100% national Israel (physical Jews), to 100% anyone who accepts Christ, no matter their background.

The Scriptures also refer to the unconverted Jews as enemies of Christianity, as blinded. You can't deny that for if you do, you deny the truth.

Telling me you were born Jewish doesn't hold any water with me. אני נולדתי גם היהודית. אתם יכולים עדיין שונאים יהודים גם אם אתה אחד.

What I said stands true, as does what Paul says, that the Jews are still chosen and a remnant remain faithful to God.
Could we get a translation of this foreign-language statement, please? Yes, this is a moderatorial directive.

My apologies. It translates into, "I was born Jewish too. You can hate the Jews even if you are one." It was to show that his constant claims of being born Jewish doesn't mean much when it comes to the love of Christ. A son can bash his father and still be in the wrong for it; being blood related means nothing.
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« Reply #439 on: July 23, 2011, 10:36:51 AM »

I really think some of you may be beyond help.

It seems to me that Xenia understands the Gospel better than 9/10 of the people claiming to be Christians (Orthodox Christians no less!) on here. Yet, at the same time those who don't seem to understand are the rudest and the most condescending of all. Someone like me shows up who you disagrees with and you assume I'm some other person (who dared to disagree with you), ridiculing me and calling me names, sockpuppet, etc. Maybe you all should go be Jews for a while, and learn a thing or two.


What part of this is so hard to fathom?

“They are the enemies of the cross of Christ.”

- Phillipians 3:18

“Because finding fault with them, He says: ‘Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a New Covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah - not according to the Covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My Covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. (…) In that He says, “A New Covenant,” He has made the first obsolete.”

- Hebrews 8:8-13

“See! Your house is left to you desolate; for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ “

- Matthew 23

“For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an anti-Christ.”

- II John 1:7

“You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. (…) He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

- John 8

“You do not believe, because you are not of My sheep,”

- John 10:26

“The Jews killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out, and displease God and oppose all men by hindering us from speaking to the nations that they may be saved – so as always to fill up the measure of their sins.”

- I Thessalonians 2:15-16



And yet we are all enemies. And yet all tribes have rejected God. Why do you choose to reflect this solely upon the Jews? Why do you ignore Romans 9-12 where Paul explicitly says they are still chosen and that God has not rejected them? Why do you ignore that Jesus was a Jew as were all His disciples (and His most blessed and Holy Mother, the Theotokos)?
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« Reply #440 on: July 23, 2011, 01:53:36 PM »

I'll tell you what I see going on, too often, in churches...and I say this as someone who was born Jewish, and is now a  Christian.

I see a lot of nonJewish Christians who are afraid to tell the truth as the Gospel and the rest of the New Testament says it.

I think there is a fear of being thought "antisemitic", just as many whites dance around the truth of the race question for fear of being called "racist".

The truth is often painful and not politically correct, but that doesn't make it any less the truth.

The New Testament says that the Jews were the chosen people of God, but it is very clear, from even just a cursory reading of the Scriptures, that the Jews (physically speaking) are no longer the chosen people of God. The Church (which is composed of both Jewish Christians and nonJewish Christians) are Israel. "Israel" has not been dumped for Gentiles: what has happened is the COMPOSITION of what constitutes "Israel" has changed. It went from being 100% national Israel (physical Jews), to 100% anyone who accepts Christ, no matter their background.

The Scriptures also refer to the unconverted Jews as enemies of Christianity, as blinded. You can't deny that for if you do, you deny the truth.

Telling me you were born Jewish doesn't hold any water with me. אני נולדתי גם היהודית. אתם יכולים עדיין שונאים יהודים גם אם אתה אחד.

What I said stands true, as does what Paul says, that the Jews are still chosen and a remnant remain faithful to God.
Could we get a translation of this foreign-language statement, please? Yes, this is a moderatorial directive.

My apologies. It translates into, "I was born Jewish too. You can hate the Jews even if you are one." It was to show that his constant claims of being born Jewish doesn't mean much when it comes to the love of Christ. A son can bash his father and still be in the wrong for it; being blood related means nothing.
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« Reply #441 on: July 23, 2011, 03:12:30 PM »

Post deleted by meself. User I am responding to is banned I note...
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« Reply #442 on: July 23, 2011, 04:21:17 PM »

I'll tell you what I see going on, too often, in churches...and I say this as someone who was born Jewish, and is now a  Christian.

I see a lot of nonJewish Christians who are afraid to tell the truth as the Gospel and the rest of the New Testament says it.

I think there is a fear of being thought "antisemitic", just as many whites dance around the truth of the race question for fear of being called "racist".

The truth is often painful and not politically correct, but that doesn't make it any less the truth.

The New Testament says that the Jews were the chosen people of God, but it is very clear, from even just a cursory reading of the Scriptures, that the Jews (physically speaking) are no longer the chosen people of God. The Church (which is composed of both Jewish Christians and nonJewish Christians) are Israel. "Israel" has not been dumped for Gentiles: what has happened is the COMPOSITION of what constitutes "Israel" has changed. It went from being 100% national Israel (physical Jews), to 100% anyone who accepts Christ, no matter their background.

The Scriptures also refer to the unconverted Jews as enemies of Christianity, as blinded. You can't deny that for if you do, you deny the truth.

Telling me you were born Jewish doesn't hold any water with me. אני נולדתי גם היהודית. אתם יכולים עדיין שונאים יהודים גם אם אתה אחד.

What I said stands true, as does what Paul says, that the Jews are still chosen and a remnant remain faithful to God.
Could we get a translation of this foreign-language statement, please? Yes, this is a moderatorial directive.

My apologies. It translates into, "I was born Jewish too. You can hate the Jews even if you are one." It was to show that his constant claims of being born Jewish doesn't mean much when it comes to the love of Christ. A son can bash his father and still be in the wrong for it; being blood related means nothing.

But didn't you say that only your grandfather or great grandfather was Jewish? Or did I misunderstand?
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« Reply #443 on: July 23, 2011, 04:35:42 PM »

I'll tell you what I see going on, too often, in churches...and I say this as someone who was born Jewish, and is now a  Christian.

I see a lot of nonJewish Christians who are afraid to tell the truth as the Gospel and the rest of the New Testament says it.

I think there is a fear of being thought "antisemitic", just as many whites dance around the truth of the race question for fear of being called "racist".

The truth is often painful and not politically correct, but that doesn't make it any less the truth.

The New Testament says that the Jews were the chosen people of God, but it is very clear, from even just a cursory reading of the Scriptures, that the Jews (physically speaking) are no longer the chosen people of God. The Church (which is composed of both Jewish Christians and nonJewish Christians) are Israel. "Israel" has not been dumped for Gentiles: what has happened is the COMPOSITION of what constitutes "Israel" has changed. It went from being 100% national Israel (physical Jews), to 100% anyone who accepts Christ, no matter their background.

The Scriptures also refer to the unconverted Jews as enemies of Christianity, as blinded. You can't deny that for if you do, you deny the truth.

Telling me you were born Jewish doesn't hold any water with me. אני נולדתי גם היהודית. אתם יכולים עדיין שונאים יהודים גם אם אתה אחד.

What I said stands true, as does what Paul says, that the Jews are still chosen and a remnant remain faithful to God.
Could we get a translation of this foreign-language statement, please? Yes, this is a moderatorial directive.

My apologies. It translates into, "I was born Jewish too. You can hate the Jews even if you are one." It was to show that his constant claims of being born Jewish doesn't mean much when it comes to the love of Christ. A son can bash his father and still be in the wrong for it; being blood related means nothing.

But didn't you say that only your grandfather or great grandfather was Jewish? Or did I misunderstand?

I view it as a race, I view myself as a remnant.
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“Wherefore, then, death approaches, gulps down the bait of the body, and is pierced by the hook of the divinity. Then, having tasted of the sinless and life-giving body, it is destroyed and gives up all those whom it had swallowed down of old." - St. John of Damascus
Xenia1918
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« Reply #444 on: July 23, 2011, 04:42:05 PM »

I'll tell you what I see going on, too often, in churches...and I say this as someone who was born Jewish, and is now a  Christian.

I see a lot of nonJewish Christians who are afraid to tell the truth as the Gospel and the rest of the New Testament says it.

I think there is a fear of being thought "antisemitic", just as many whites dance around the truth of the race question for fear of being called "racist".

The truth is often painful and not politically correct, but that doesn't make it any less the truth.

The New Testament says that the Jews were the chosen people of God, but it is very clear, from even just a cursory reading of the Scriptures, that the Jews (physically speaking) are no longer the chosen people of God. The Church (which is composed of both Jewish Christians and nonJewish Christians) are Israel. "Israel" has not been dumped for Gentiles: what has happened is the COMPOSITION of what constitutes "Israel" has changed. It went from being 100% national Israel (physical Jews), to 100% anyone who accepts Christ, no matter their background.

The Scriptures also refer to the unconverted Jews as enemies of Christianity, as blinded. You can't deny that for if you do, you deny the truth.

Telling me you were born Jewish doesn't hold any water with me. אני נולדתי גם היהודית. אתם יכולים עדיין שונאים יהודים גם אם אתה אחד.

What I said stands true, as does what Paul says, that the Jews are still chosen and a remnant remain faithful to God.
Could we get a translation of this foreign-language statement, please? Yes, this is a moderatorial directive.

My apologies. It translates into, "I was born Jewish too. You can hate the Jews even if you are one." It was to show that his constant claims of being born Jewish doesn't mean much when it comes to the love of Christ. A son can bash his father and still be in the wrong for it; being blood related means nothing.

But didn't you say that only your grandfather or great grandfather was Jewish? Or did I misunderstand?

I view it as a race, I view myself as a remnant.

I was under the impression by something you said in an earlier post, that only a great grandfather was Jewish. That wouldn't make you a Jew, if that's the case. A Jew is someone born of a Jewish mother (or, in some forms of Judaism, a Jewish father.) But people who were born and raised as Jews (like me) greatly dislike being referred to as a "race" because that is what Hitler did, and we see how he used that categorization against the Jewish people.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2011, 04:46:47 PM by Xenia1918 » Logged

"O God, enlarge within us the sense of fellowship with all living things, our brothers the animals to whom Thou gavest the earth as their home in common with us..." (from the Prayer of St Basil the Great)

REAL RC: http://www.traditionalmass.org
REAL OC: http://www.orthodoxinfo.com
theo philosopher
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« Reply #445 on: July 23, 2011, 04:46:31 PM »

I'll tell you what I see going on, too often, in churches...and I say this as someone who was born Jewish, and is now a  Christian.

I see a lot of nonJewish Christians who are afraid to tell the truth as the Gospel and the rest of the New Testament says it.

I think there is a fear of being thought "antisemitic", just as many whites dance around the truth of the race question for fear of being called "racist".

The truth is often painful and not politically correct, but that doesn't make it any less the truth.

The New Testament says that the Jews were the chosen people of God, but it is very clear, from even just a cursory reading of the Scriptures, that the Jews (physically speaking) are no longer the chosen people of God. The Church (which is composed of both Jewish Christians and nonJewish Christians) are Israel. "Israel" has not been dumped for Gentiles: what has happened is the COMPOSITION of what constitutes "Israel" has changed. It went from being 100% national Israel (physical Jews), to 100% anyone who accepts Christ, no matter their background.

The Scriptures also refer to the unconverted Jews as enemies of Christianity, as blinded. You can't deny that for if you do, you deny the truth.

Telling me you were born Jewish doesn't hold any water with me. אני נולדתי גם היהודית. אתם יכולים עדיין שונאים יהודים גם אם אתה אחד.

What I said stands true, as does what Paul says, that the Jews are still chosen and a remnant remain faithful to God.
Could we get a translation of this foreign-language statement, please? Yes, this is a moderatorial directive.

My apologies. It translates into, "I was born Jewish too. You can hate the Jews even if you are one." It was to show that his constant claims of being born Jewish doesn't mean much when it comes to the love of Christ. A son can bash his father and still be in the wrong for it; being blood related means nothing.

But didn't you say that only your grandfather or great grandfather was Jewish? Or did I misunderstand?

I view it as a race, I view myself as a remnant.

I was under the impression by something you said in an earlier post, that only a great grandfather was Jewish. That wouldn't make you a Jew, if that's the case. A Jew is someone born of a Jewish mother (or, in some forms of Judaism, a Jewish father.)

So you're going to go with the old Jewish teaching that was created in order to mock Jewish converts to Christianity?

I didn't know genes followed Jewish rules (they don't). Nor did I say that only my great-grandfather was Jewish.

But you keep moving away from the issue, which is that you've displayed hatred towards the Jews. You haven't dealt with any of the arguments given, and at this point you're simply engaging in ad hominem and red herring tactics to get us to look away from the fact that you have no basis for your beliefs or actions.
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“Wherefore, then, death approaches, gulps down the bait of the body, and is pierced by the hook of the divinity. Then, having tasted of the sinless and life-giving body, it is destroyed and gives up all those whom it had swallowed down of old." - St. John of Damascus
Xenia1918
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« Reply #446 on: July 23, 2011, 04:50:24 PM »

I'll tell you what I see going on, too often, in churches...and I say this as someone who was born Jewish, and is now a  Christian.

I see a lot of nonJewish Christians who are afraid to tell the truth as the Gospel and the rest of the New Testament says it.

I think there is a fear of being thought "antisemitic", just as many whites dance around the truth of the race question for fear of being called "racist".

The truth is often painful and not politically correct, but that doesn't make it any less the truth.

The New Testament says that the Jews were the chosen people of God, but it is very clear, from even just a cursory reading of the Scriptures, that the Jews (physically speaking) are no longer the chosen people of God. The Church (which is composed of both Jewish Christians and nonJewish Christians) are Israel. "Israel" has not been dumped for Gentiles: what has happened is the COMPOSITION of what constitutes "Israel" has changed. It went from being 100% national Israel (physical Jews), to 100% anyone who accepts Christ, no matter their background.

The Scriptures also refer to the unconverted Jews as enemies of Christianity, as blinded. You can't deny that for if you do, you deny the truth.

Telling me you were born Jewish doesn't hold any water with me. אני נולדתי גם היהודית. אתם יכולים עדיין שונאים יהודים גם אם אתה אחד.

What I said stands true, as does what Paul says, that the Jews are still chosen and a remnant remain faithful to God.
Could we get a translation of this foreign-language statement, please? Yes, this is a moderatorial directive.

My apologies. It translates into, "I was born Jewish too. You can hate the Jews even if you are one." It was to show that his constant claims of being born Jewish doesn't mean much when it comes to the love of Christ. A son can bash his father and still be in the wrong for it; being blood related means nothing.

But didn't you say that only your grandfather or great grandfather was Jewish? Or did I misunderstand?

I view it as a race, I view myself as a remnant.

I was under the impression by something you said in an earlier post, that only a great grandfather was Jewish. That wouldn't make you a Jew, if that's the case. A Jew is someone born of a Jewish mother (or, in some forms of Judaism, a Jewish father.)

So you're going to go with the old Jewish teaching that was created in order to mock Jewish converts to Christianity?

I didn't know genes followed Jewish rules (they don't). Nor did I say that only my great-grandfather was Jewish.

But you keep moving away from the issue, which is that you've displayed hatred towards the Jews. You haven't dealt with any of the arguments given, and at this point you're simply engaging in ad hominem and red herring tactics to get us to look away from the fact that you have no basis for your beliefs or actions.

Jewish religious status was always defined as being born of Jewish parents, or having converted to Judaism. In Biblical times, at least one parent had to be the father. In modern times, that one parent has to be the mother. I'm just stating what Jewish religious law says. A person with a Jewish great grandparent is regarded by Jews as 'descended from Jews', but he is not regarded as a Jew.

I'm just trying to make sure people understand that. I grew up as an Orthodox Jew, I'd think I'd know what the religion teaches.

And I have not expressed hatred for Jews as people; if I did, I'd have to hate my relatives and even myself! But I do have issues with, and am very critical of what the modern Jewish religion teaches, esp. about Gentiles and Jesus Christ.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2011, 04:52:43 PM by Xenia1918 » Logged

"O God, enlarge within us the sense of fellowship with all living things, our brothers the animals to whom Thou gavest the earth as their home in common with us..." (from the Prayer of St Basil the Great)

REAL RC: http://www.traditionalmass.org
REAL OC: http://www.orthodoxinfo.com
theo philosopher
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« Reply #447 on: July 23, 2011, 04:52:28 PM »

I'll tell you what I see going on, too often, in churches...and I say this as someone who was born Jewish, and is now a  Christian.

I see a lot of nonJewish Christians who are afraid to tell the truth as the Gospel and the rest of the New Testament says it.

I think there is a fear of being thought "antisemitic", just as many whites dance around the truth of the race question for fear of being called "racist".

The truth is often painful and not politically correct, but that doesn't make it any less the truth.

The New Testament says that the Jews were the chosen people of God, but it is very clear, from even just a cursory reading of the Scriptures, that the Jews (physically speaking) are no longer the chosen people of God. The Church (which is composed of both Jewish Christians and nonJewish Christians) are Israel. "Israel" has not been dumped for Gentiles: what has happened is the COMPOSITION of what constitutes "Israel" has changed. It went from being 100% national Israel (physical Jews), to 100% anyone who accepts Christ, no matter their background.

The Scriptures also refer to the unconverted Jews as enemies of Christianity, as blinded. You can't deny that for if you do, you deny the truth.

Telling me you were born Jewish doesn't hold any water with me. אני נולדתי גם היהודית. אתם יכולים עדיין שונאים יהודים גם אם אתה אחד.

What I said stands true, as does what Paul says, that the Jews are still chosen and a remnant remain faithful to God.
Could we get a translation of this foreign-language statement, please? Yes, this is a moderatorial directive.

My apologies. It translates into, "I was born Jewish too. You can hate the Jews even if you are one." It was to show that his constant claims of being born Jewish doesn't mean much when it comes to the love of Christ. A son can bash his father and still be in the wrong for it; being blood related means nothing.

But didn't you say that only your grandfather or great grandfather was Jewish? Or did I misunderstand?

I view it as a race, I view myself as a remnant.

I was under the impression by something you said in an earlier post, that only a great grandfather was Jewish. That wouldn't make you a Jew, if that's the case. A Jew is someone born of a Jewish mother (or, in some forms of Judaism, a Jewish father.)

So you're going to go with the old Jewish teaching that was created in order to mock Jewish converts to Christianity?

I didn't know genes followed Jewish rules (they don't). Nor did I say that only my great-grandfather was Jewish.

But you keep moving away from the issue, which is that you've displayed hatred towards the Jews. You haven't dealt with any of the arguments given, and at this point you're simply engaging in ad hominem and red herring tactics to get us to look away from the fact that you have no basis for your beliefs or actions.

Jewish religious status was always defined as being born of Jewish parents, or having converted to Judaism. In Biblical times, at least one parent had to be the father. In modern times, that one parent has to be the mother. I'm just stating what Jewish religious law says. A person with a Jewish great grandparent is regarded by Jews as 'descended from Jews', but he is not regarded as a Jew.

I'm just trying to make sure people understand that.
Science (genes) trumps Jewish law.
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“Wherefore, then, death approaches, gulps down the bait of the body, and is pierced by the hook of the divinity. Then, having tasted of the sinless and life-giving body, it is destroyed and gives up all those whom it had swallowed down of old." - St. John of Damascus
Xenia1918
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« Reply #448 on: July 23, 2011, 05:19:34 PM »

I'll tell you what I see going on, too often, in churches...and I say this as someone who was born Jewish, and is now a  Christian.

I see a lot of nonJewish Christians who are afraid to tell the truth as the Gospel and the rest of the New Testament says it.

I think there is a fear of being thought "antisemitic", just as many whites dance around the truth of the race question for fear of being called "racist".

The truth is often painful and not politically correct, but that doesn't make it any less the truth.

The New Testament says that the Jews were the chosen people of God, but it is very clear, from even just a cursory reading of the Scriptures, that the Jews (physically speaking) are no longer the chosen people of God. The Church (which is composed of both Jewish Christians and nonJewish Christians) are Israel. "Israel" has not been dumped for Gentiles: what has happened is the COMPOSITION of what constitutes "Israel" has changed. It went from being 100% national Israel (physical Jews), to 100% anyone who accepts Christ, no matter their background.

The Scriptures also refer to the unconverted Jews as enemies of Christianity, as blinded. You can't deny that for if you do, you deny the truth.

Telling me you were born Jewish doesn't hold any water with me. אני נולדתי גם היהודית. אתם יכולים עדיין שונאים יהודים גם אם אתה אחד.

What I said stands true, as does what Paul says, that the Jews are still chosen and a remnant remain faithful to God.
Could we get a translation of this foreign-language statement, please? Yes, this is a moderatorial directive.

My apologies. It translates into, "I was born Jewish too. You can hate the Jews even if you are one." It was to show that his constant claims of being born Jewish doesn't mean much when it comes to the love of Christ. A son can bash his father and still be in the wrong for it; being blood related means nothing.

But didn't you say that only your grandfather or great grandfather was Jewish? Or did I misunderstand?

I view it as a race, I view myself as a remnant.

I was under the impression by something you said in an earlier post, that only a great grandfather was Jewish. That wouldn't make you a Jew, if that's the case. A Jew is someone born of a Jewish mother (or, in some forms of Judaism, a Jewish father.)

So you're going to go with the old Jewish teaching that was created in order to mock Jewish converts to Christianity?

I didn't know genes followed Jewish rules (they don't). Nor did I say that only my great-grandfather was Jewish.

But you keep moving away from the issue, which is that you've displayed hatred towards the Jews. You haven't dealt with any of the arguments given, and at this point you're simply engaging in ad hominem and red herring tactics to get us to look away from the fact that you have no basis for your beliefs or actions.

Jewish religious status was always defined as being born of Jewish parents, or having converted to Judaism. In Biblical times, at least one parent had to be the father. In modern times, that one parent has to be the mother. I'm just stating what Jewish religious law says. A person with a Jewish great grandparent is regarded by Jews as 'descended from Jews', but he is not regarded as a Jew.

I'm just trying to make sure people understand that.
Science (genes) trumps Jewish law.

Hitler said that too, though...that's the problem.

Here is a reputable site that explains how a Jew is defined:

http://www.jewfaq.org/whoisjew.htm

And this page, also at that site, explains why Jews are not a "race":

http://www.jewfaq.org/judaism.htm#Race
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"O God, enlarge within us the sense of fellowship with all living things, our brothers the animals to whom Thou gavest the earth as their home in common with us..." (from the Prayer of St Basil the Great)

REAL RC: http://www.traditionalmass.org
REAL OC: http://www.orthodoxinfo.com
theo philosopher
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« Reply #449 on: July 23, 2011, 05:44:08 PM »

So Paul was wrong, as were the Prophets? Is that what you're saying?
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“Wherefore, then, death approaches, gulps down the bait of the body, and is pierced by the hook of the divinity. Then, having tasted of the sinless and life-giving body, it is destroyed and gives up all those whom it had swallowed down of old." - St. John of Damascus
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