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Author Topic: Constantly Evolving Theology - Scott Hahn  (Read 7282 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: July 08, 2011, 09:13:02 PM »

Scott Hahn has been quoted saying that Orthodoxy is deficient because its theology is stagnant.

The implication would seem to be that Roman Catholic theology is superior since it is always in a state of evolution.

Is the Roman Catholic institution unique in this respect?

Does Buddhist teaching constantly evolve?  Judaism?  Islam?

Do people here believe that constantly evolving theology is a necessary mark of the true Church?
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« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2011, 09:19:08 PM »

Of course, Father, just as St. Jude wrote:"contend earnestly for the faith which is delivered over and ove again in revisions to the saints"
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« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2011, 09:33:42 PM »

Of course, Father, just as St. Jude wrote:"contend earnestly for the faith which is delivered over and ove again in revisions to the saints"

Priceless. Need anything more be said? You da man!  laugh laugh
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« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2011, 09:48:12 PM »

Theology should not change if God does not change.
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« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2011, 10:32:49 PM »

And yet a Catholic would probably use the argument, that originally (as some have come to a consensus on).. Yahweh was worshipped as just one, among other gods.  Then the understanding of Yahweh developed into realizing that he is the Only God, and there are no others.  Then gradually as time passes.. the Son of God incarnates, a new understanding comes.. of seeing God as the Holy Trinity.  Not so much that these are complete changes from what was, but it builds on top of each other -- like the layers of a pyramid.. until you reach the nexus (who knows when that is).

Even the ecumenical councils themselves seem to point towards a development, as the Church must define what is the Orthodox teaching -- as beforehand, some individuals were not sure what the consensus was.  Perhaps this is why you had so many heresies floating hither and yonder.. back in the early days. 

What do you all think?
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« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2011, 10:41:36 PM »

Even the ecumenical councils themselves seem to point towards a development, as the Church must define what is the Orthodox teaching -- as beforehand, some individuals were not sure what the consensus was.  Perhaps this is why you had so many heresies floating hither and yonder.. back in the early days. 

What do you all think?


Dear AveChriste,

There are some words written by Saint Vincent of Lerins which touch on what you are saying.

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« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2011, 10:45:50 PM »

And yet a Catholic would probably use the argument, that originally (as some have come to a consensus on).. Yahweh was worshipped as just one, among other gods.  Then the understanding of Yahweh developed into realizing that he is the Only God, and there are no others.  Then gradually as time passes.. the Son of God incarnates, a new understanding comes.. of seeing God as the Holy Trinity.  Not so much that these are complete changes from what was, but it builds on top of each other -- like the layers of a pyramid.. until you reach the nexus (who knows when that is).

Even the ecumenical councils themselves seem to point towards a development, as the Church must define what is the Orthodox teaching -- as beforehand, some individuals were not sure what the consensus was.  Perhaps this is why you had so many heresies floating hither and yonder.. back in the early days. 

What do you all think?

I think that the argument would not be solid in front of Abraham, who beheld Yaweh as three persons yet heard one voice.   We read several times that God said "let US..." (make man...go down...)  in Genesis.  Who is this "Us"?  Some say God was speaking to angels.  Did angels help create humans?  This is not possible.  Who is the "us"?  We find out who the us is when we get to the hospitality of Abraham, where the "Us" is three in number.  

So depends what you refer to as "development."  If clarification of what is already there is meant, then this is not development.  If layer upon layer of new material is meant, then this is not the Faith delivered once for all to the saints.    
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« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2011, 10:50:35 PM »

And yet a Catholic would probably use the argument, that originally (as some have come to a consensus on).. Yahweh was worshipped as just one, among other gods.  Then the understanding of Yahweh developed into realizing that he is the Only God, and there are no others.  Then gradually as time passes.. the Son of God incarnates, a new understanding comes.. of seeing God as the Holy Trinity.  Not so much that these are complete changes from what was, but it builds on top of each other -- like the layers of a pyramid.. until you reach the nexus (who knows when that is).

Even the ecumenical councils themselves seem to point towards a development, as the Church must define what is the Orthodox teaching -- as beforehand, some individuals were not sure what the consensus was.  Perhaps this is why you had so many heresies floating hither and yonder.. back in the early days. 

What do you all think?
I would say the nexus is Christ on the Cross and everything else is bringing out the implications of that, as St. Vincent said. But this doesn't seem to be what Hahn is advocating. He seems to think the RC needs to be developing completely new doctrines, if I understand him.
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« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2011, 10:52:59 PM »

Scott Hahn has been quoted saying that Orthodoxy is deficient because its theology is stagnant.

The implication would seem to be that Roman Catholic theology is superior since it is always in a state of evolution.

Is the Roman Catholic institution unique in this respect?

Does Buddhist teaching constantly evolve?  Judaism?
Buddhism maybe, Judaism definitely.
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« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2011, 12:07:12 AM »

Judaism is constantly evolving. The basis may have been the Torah and the Tanakh, but many other things have been added over time to make the Judaism we see today. Among them are the Talmud, codifications of Halakha (such as the Mishneh Torah), the Zohar for Chasidic and Kabbalah-practicing Jews, the Tanya, etc. And these are just a few in a sea of books.

But I absolutely agree that theology should not change if God does not.
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« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2011, 12:26:57 AM »

All religions change and develop over time, even if only on a cultural if not a theological level.  Sure Orthodox may believe in the same doctrines that she held a thousand years ago, but the way those doctrines are presented to her faithful is probably different today then centuries ago.  Today there is much more emphasise in religion on man and his human needs.  Much more emphasise is placed on social justice, and building up Gods kingdom here on Earth as opposed to telling people to be content with their poverty and misery and wait till they die to get their reward. 

Also, much more pastoral approaches are used by clergy of all faiths today in regards to moral issues such as those dealing with human sexuality (Especially in the area of birth control) Then would have been common years ago. Priest these days are more prone to use Economia with their flocks in order to reconcile the teachings of the Church to people whose lives are often caught up in the modern world, with all its temptations and complexity. 

  I personally like the new, more human developments that have taken place in religion then the more rigorous ways of yesteryear.
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« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2011, 12:37:52 AM »

Theology should not change if God does not change.
But theology is something humans do, and humans do change.
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« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2011, 12:53:43 AM »

Theology is not synonymous with "the faith." Theology is the study of the the faith. As such, theology certainly can evolve because it is simply our understanding of the faith delivered once and for all to the saints.
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« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2011, 01:59:09 PM »

Scott Hahn has been quoted saying that Orthodoxy is deficient because its theology is stagnant.

The question is, do any of the Catholics on this forum actually agree with that criticism? (Granted Papist said that he agreed with Hahn's assessment of Orthodoxy; but he specifically excluded the stagnancy charge.) If not, then I think you're beating a dead horse.

I think what you fail to realize is that neoconservative Catholics -- the sort of Catholics who worry about Orthodoxy being "stagnant" -- make a big show of being "ecumenical" toward the Orthodox, but very few of them will come on this forum and actually talk to Orthodox. (I sometimes call it "the ecumenism of not talking".)
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« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2011, 02:08:23 PM »

Theology is not synonymous with "the faith." Theology is the study of the the faith. As such, theology certainly can evolve because it is simply our understanding of the faith delivered once and for all to the saints.
That sounds more Kantian than Christian. If "the Faith" is just this thing bracketed off somewhere "out there" where we can only imperfectly access it, then that kind of mocks RC (and Orthodox) attempts to arrive at an absolute source of religious knowledge.
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« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2011, 03:07:45 PM »

Theology is not synonymous with "the faith." Theology is the study of the the faith. As such, theology certainly can evolve because it is simply our understanding of the faith delivered once and for all to the saints.
That sounds more Kantian than Christian. If "the Faith" is just this thing bracketed off somewhere "out there" where we can only imperfectly access it, then that kind of mocks RC (and Orthodox) attempts to arrive at an absolute source of religious knowledge.
I would alter Wyatt's statement and say "God is not synonymous with 'the faith'".
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« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2011, 05:30:12 PM »

Theology is not synonymous with "the faith." Theology is the study of the the faith. As such, theology certainly can evolve because it is simply our understanding of the faith delivered once and for all to the saints.
That sounds more Kantian than Christian. If "the Faith" is just this thing bracketed off somewhere "out there" where we can only imperfectly access it, then that kind of mocks RC (and Orthodox) attempts to arrive at an absolute source of religious knowledge.

I think it's completely Christian. The Deposit of Faith was given and does not change, but our thinking about it does change.
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« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2011, 05:42:01 PM »

Theology is not synonymous with "the faith." Theology is the study of the the faith. As such, theology certainly can evolve because it is simply our understanding of the faith delivered once and for all to the saints.
That sounds more Kantian than Christian. If "the Faith" is just this thing bracketed off somewhere "out there" where we can only imperfectly access it, then that kind of mocks RC (and Orthodox) attempts to arrive at an absolute source of religious knowledge.

I think it's completely Christian. The Deposit of Faith was given and does not change, but our thinking about it does change.
That's like saying the stove didn't burn you, the heat emitted by it did when your skin came into contact with it; a distinction without a difference.

And where do you draw the line? A "spiritually" resurrected Jesus? A only "metaphorically" virgin Theotokos? An "allegorical" Passion? Once you start shifting with the times, where does it stop? Any of the above could be written off by a Church determined to get with the times as "the same faith thought about a different way."
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« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2011, 06:54:48 PM »

Do people here believe that constantly evolving theology is a necessary mark of the true Church?

No. I tend more to the traditionalist, or intentionalist, camp. I don't believe in a "living" Bible (or a "living" Constitution, for that matter). If something is living, it can be killed: up is down, left is right, white is black, slavery is freedom, evil is relative. Calls for institutional change, in my experience, usually originate from people who don't want to be limited by some aspect of the institution---sinners in this case---not those who are attempting to approve it. I don't see any modern prophets around, do you? Or theologians offering insight at the level of the Church Fathers. Only destroyers. Mankind tends to have a little too much hubris. I trust the Church Fathers. They were much closer to Christ and His divinity than I will ever hope to be.

I'd agree that the faith doesn't change, but that our feelings about it do. It's inevitable. But Orthodox Christianity has preserved for us eternal and unchanging aspirations which need no improvement. Any changing that is done is to be done by us---by me personally, internally.

In the last 50 years, under the influence of Saul Alinsky and his fellow travelers, half the Roman Catholic Church has evolved into what is, frankly, cheap crypto-Marxism. I don't regard that as an improvement, and it is killing their church. Their theology now wallows in the mud. I don't want to be fashionable with sinners; I want to be the best Christian I can be.
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« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2011, 07:31:51 PM »

Theology is not synonymous with "the faith." Theology is the study of the the faith. As such, theology certainly can evolve because it is simply our understanding of the faith delivered once and for all to the saints.
That sounds more Kantian than Christian. If "the Faith" is just this thing bracketed off somewhere "out there" where we can only imperfectly access it, then that kind of mocks RC (and Orthodox) attempts to arrive at an absolute source of religious knowledge.

I think it's completely Christian. The Deposit of Faith was given and does not change, but our thinking about it does change.
That's like saying the stove didn't burn you, the heat emitted by it did when your skin came into contact with it; a distinction without a difference.

And where do you draw the line? A "spiritually" resurrected Jesus? A only "metaphorically" virgin Theotokos? An "allegorical" Passion? Once you start shifting with the times, where does it stop? Any of the above could be written off by a Church determined to get with the times as "the same faith thought about a different way."
I completely disagree. There is definitely a difference between the revealed Truth and our understanding of that Truth.
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« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2011, 07:54:20 PM »

The word 'evolving' is a loaded scientific term that has distinct meanings.   'Evolution' is a word appropriated by science to describe a particular set of natural circumstances none of which has to do with culture or society.

Religion is part of culture and culture is always changing.  Culture cannot not change.  It is continually under the process of change.  Most of that change is subtle and we hardly notice it happening.  At other time that change is so dramatic that we call it 'revolution' - an almost complete severance with the past.  We are undergoing such a change with respect to the 'information revolution'.

The claim that somehow the Orthodox Church has escaped change is unsustainable.  But what the Orthodox Church has managed to do is to manage the pace of that change - and it has done so effectively.

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« Reply #21 on: July 09, 2011, 09:03:10 PM »

Theology is not synonymous with "the faith." Theology is the study of the the faith. As such, theology certainly can evolve because it is simply our understanding of the faith delivered once and for all to the saints.
That sounds more Kantian than Christian. If "the Faith" is just this thing bracketed off somewhere "out there" where we can only imperfectly access it, then that kind of mocks RC (and Orthodox) attempts to arrive at an absolute source of religious knowledge.

I think it's completely Christian. The Deposit of Faith was given and does not change, but our thinking about it does change.
That's like saying the stove didn't burn you, the heat emitted by it did when your skin came into contact with it; a distinction without a difference.

And where do you draw the line? A "spiritually" resurrected Jesus? A only "metaphorically" virgin Theotokos? An "allegorical" Passion? Once you start shifting with the times, where does it stop? Any of the above could be written off by a Church determined to get with the times as "the same faith thought about a different way."
I completely disagree. There is definitely a difference between the revealed Truth and our understanding of that Truth.
In theory, sure. But what is the practical difference between an "understanding" that changes like the wind, and a changing truth? As Kay from Men in Black put it, "2000 years ago, everybody knew the earth was flat. 500 years everybody knew the earth was the center of the universe and 5 minutes ago you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow."
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« Reply #22 on: July 09, 2011, 09:36:50 PM »

I never liked Scott Hahn or his brand of apologetics.  It seems as if he converted to Catholicism, yet still tries to act in the role of Protestant evangelist (Who preaches Catholicism).  Since he is neither a bishop or priest of the RCC and, as far as I know is not licensed to preach theology by the Vatican.  Why then should any person (Whether Catholic or Orthodox) Take him so seriously?

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« Reply #23 on: July 09, 2011, 10:44:05 PM »

In theory, sure. But what is the practical difference between an "understanding" that changes like the wind, and a changing truth?

It isn't obviously to you that if tomorrow I decide that grass is purple, then the truth won't have changed but only my belief?
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« Reply #24 on: July 09, 2011, 11:11:46 PM »

The question is, do any of the Catholics on this forum actually agree with that criticism? (Granted Papist said that he agreed with Hahn's assessment of Orthodoxy; but he specifically excluded the stagnancy charge.) If not, then I think you're beating a dead horse.

Well, it is certainly something which looms as important in your mind. laugh

You have given us this Scott Hahn quote 3 times.

Message 96
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Message 27
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And you even made it the OP for an entire thread
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« Reply #25 on: July 09, 2011, 11:12:47 PM »

In theory, sure. But what is the practical difference between an "understanding" that changes like the wind, and a changing truth?

It isn't obviously to you that if tomorrow I decide that grass is purple, then the truth won't have changed but only my belief?
If you decided that it wouldn't change it. If everyone on earth decided it, then for all intents and purposes, the truth becomes irrelevant.
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« Reply #26 on: July 10, 2011, 05:37:54 AM »

And yet a Catholic would probably use the argument, that originally (as some have come to a consensus on).. Yahweh was worshipped as just one, among other gods.  Then the understanding of Yahweh developed into realizing that he is the Only God, and there are no others.  Then gradually as time passes.. the Son of God incarnates, a new understanding comes.. of seeing God as the Holy Trinity.  Not so much that these are complete changes from what was, but it builds on top of each other -- like the layers of a pyramid.. until you reach the nexus (who knows when that is).

Even the ecumenical councils themselves seem to point towards a development, as the Church must define what is the Orthodox teaching -- as beforehand, some individuals were not sure what the consensus was.  Perhaps this is why you had so many heresies floating hither and yonder.. back in the early days. 

What do you all think?

I think the implication of the phrasing "the faith delivered to the saints once and for all" is that while the substance of doctrine may have changed before the Advent of Christ because not all fundamental revelation had been given yet, Christ delivered all fundamental revelation in His life and ministry, and therefore the only development that is to occur after that point is in formulating of the fundamentals and in secondary matters.
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« Reply #27 on: July 10, 2011, 07:38:12 AM »

And I would add, "clarifying implications there-off." Eg. iconodulia.
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« Reply #28 on: July 10, 2011, 07:48:12 AM »

And I would add, "clarifying implications there-off." Eg. iconodulia.

I don't know about that. The EO are really hard-core about it. I've been affirmative of the veneration of icons as communicative of the divine life for years now, but I've never been able to understand the perspective that icons are fundamental to salvation history.
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« Reply #29 on: July 10, 2011, 07:54:04 AM »

And I would add, "clarifying implications there-off." Eg. iconodulia.

I don't know about that. The EO are really hard-core about it. I've been affirmative of the veneration of icons as communicative of the divine life for years now, but I've never been able to understand the perspective that icons are fundamental to salvation history.

I think perhaps it is more that the denial of the icons perverts salvation history?

A distinction without a difference, some might say.
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« Reply #30 on: July 10, 2011, 08:03:56 AM »

Iconoclasm is, at its core, a denial of the Incarnation of Christ. It denies that the Word became flesh. It refuses to acknowledge that Christ is fully Man and fully God. It continues the heresy of the depravity of matter and of the body. Seems like a rather important aspect of salvation history, and of our personal salvation journey, methinks.
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« Reply #31 on: July 10, 2011, 08:09:45 AM »

But if the iconoclasm had never occurred, would we still have the same robust theology of the holy icons that we do or would our position be closer to that of the Copts?
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« Reply #32 on: July 10, 2011, 08:24:53 AM »

And I would add, "clarifying implications there-off." Eg. iconodulia.

I don't know about that. The EO are really hard-core about it. I've been affirmative of the veneration of icons as communicative of the divine life for years now, but I've never been able to understand the perspective that icons are fundamental to salvation history.

I think perhaps it is more that the denial of the icons perverts salvation history?

A distinction without a difference, some might say.

As simplistic as it may seem, I've never seen a real response to the criticism that we don't know what Jesus looked like and therefore the idea that we could actually portray Him even in His humanity is hubris. Rafa (who I often have found ridiculous, but not all the time) used this reasoning to indicate that the Mandylion must have been the only real icon, and I very much understood his position.
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« Reply #33 on: July 10, 2011, 08:26:06 AM »

And I would add, "clarifying implications there-off." Eg. iconodulia.

I don't know about that. The EO are really hard-core about it. I've been affirmative of the veneration of icons as communicative of the divine life for years now, but I've never been able to understand the perspective that icons are fundamental to salvation history.

I think perhaps it is more that the denial of the icons perverts salvation history?

A distinction without a difference, some might say.

It would seem to me that icons can be denied on a premise other than perversion of the Incarnation, and in that case I could see how that it would be a perversion of salvation history.
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« Reply #34 on: July 10, 2011, 08:27:18 AM »

On top of that, I can't see how icons can be really fundamental to worshiping "in fullness and truth".
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« Reply #35 on: July 10, 2011, 08:28:08 AM »

Iconoclasm is, at its core, a denial of the Incarnation of Christ. It denies that the Word became flesh. It refuses to acknowledge that Christ is fully Man and fully God. It continues the heresy of the depravity of matter and of the body. Seems like a rather important aspect of salvation history, and of our personal salvation journey, methinks.

Except when it's not.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #36 on: July 10, 2011, 08:29:02 AM »

Quote
As simplistic as it may seem, I've never seen a real response to the criticism that we don't know what Jesus looked like and therefore the idea that we could actually portray Him even in His humanity is hubris. Rafa (who I often have found ridiculous, but not all the time) used this reasoning to indicate that the Mandylion must have been the only real icon, and I very much understood his position.

Have you read St John of Damascus' In Defence of the Holy Images? All you need to know is there.
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« Reply #37 on: July 10, 2011, 08:31:25 AM »

Quote
It would seem to me that icons can be denied on a premise other than perversion of the Incarnation, and in that case I could see how that it would be a perversion of salvation history.

Quote
On top of that, I can't see how icons can be really fundamental to worshiping "in fullness and truth".

All concerns which St John's treatise addresses.

Quote
Except when it's not.   Roll Eyes

Care to explain?
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« Reply #38 on: July 10, 2011, 08:35:09 AM »

Care to explain?

If you're referring so much to the treatise of John Damascene to defend your position, perhaps this conversation can't really continue until I give your defense a read.
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« Reply #39 on: July 10, 2011, 08:45:23 AM »

Care to explain?

If you're referring so much to the treatise of John Damascene to defend your position, perhaps this conversation can't really continue until I give your defense a read.

Good. It's not a long read, and it's available as an online document. Here's a link: http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/johndam-icons.html

Also useful is the treatise defending icons by St Theodore of the Studion.
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« Reply #40 on: July 10, 2011, 08:50:23 AM »

And I would add, "clarifying implications there-off." Eg. iconodulia.

I don't know about that. The EO are really hard-core about it. I've been affirmative of the veneration of icons as communicative of the divine life for years now, but I've never been able to understand the perspective that icons are fundamental to salvation history.

I think perhaps it is more that the denial of the icons perverts salvation history?

A distinction without a difference, some might say.

As simplistic as it may seem, I've never seen a real response to the criticism that we don't know what Jesus looked like and therefore the idea that we could actually portray Him even in His humanity is hubris. Rafa (who I often have found ridiculous, but not all the time) used this reasoning to indicate that the Mandylion must have been the only real icon, and I very much understood his position.
We don't know what He sounded like, nor have His exact words for the most part (they being recorded in Greek when He said them in Aramaic), but the Gospel text isn't hubris.
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« Reply #41 on: July 10, 2011, 12:09:54 PM »

And I would add, "clarifying implications there-off." Eg. iconodulia.

I don't know about that. The EO are really hard-core about it. I've been affirmative of the veneration of icons as communicative of the divine life for years now, but I've never been able to understand the perspective that icons are fundamental to salvation history.

I think perhaps it is more that the denial of the icons perverts salvation history?

A distinction without a difference, some might say.

As simplistic as it may seem, I've never seen a real response to the criticism that we don't know what Jesus looked like and therefore the idea that we could actually portray Him even in His humanity is hubris. Rafa (who I often have found ridiculous, but not all the time) used this reasoning to indicate that the Mandylion must have been the only real icon, and I very much understood his position.
We don't know what He sounded like, nor have His exact words for the most part (they being recorded in Greek when He said them in Aramaic), but the Gospel text isn't hubris.

I like that actually.
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« Reply #42 on: July 10, 2011, 12:10:22 PM »

And I would add, "clarifying implications there-off." Eg. iconodulia.

I don't know about that. The EO are really hard-core about it. I've been affirmative of the veneration of icons as communicative of the divine life for years now, but I've never been able to understand the perspective that icons are fundamental to salvation history.

I think perhaps it is more that the denial of the icons perverts salvation history?

A distinction without a difference, some might say.

As simplistic as it may seem, I've never seen a real response to the criticism that we don't know what Jesus looked like and therefore the idea that we could actually portray Him even in His humanity is hubris. Rafa (who I often have found ridiculous, but not all the time) used this reasoning to indicate that the Mandylion must have been the only real icon, and I very much understood his position.
What Jesus (and the Theotokos, Saints Peter and Paul, etc.) looked like can't be part of Holy Tradition? That's how I see it (with or without the idea of Saint Luke having been a painter).

Also, Saint Nicholas of Myra's recent facial reconstruction looks very much like his traditional portrayal. Not conclusive, but perhaps a reason for benefit of the doubt.
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« Reply #43 on: July 10, 2011, 12:21:35 PM »

And yet a Catholic would probably use the argument, that originally (as some have come to a consensus on).. Yahweh was worshipped as just one, among other gods.  Then the understanding of Yahweh developed into realizing that he is the Only God, and there are no others.  Then gradually as time passes.. the Son of God incarnates, a new understanding comes.. of seeing God as the Holy Trinity.  Not so much that these are complete changes from what was, but it builds on top of each other -- like the layers of a pyramid.. until you reach the nexus (who knows when that is).

Even the ecumenical councils themselves seem to point towards a development, as the Church must define what is the Orthodox teaching -- as beforehand, some individuals were not sure what the consensus was.  Perhaps this is why you had so many heresies floating hither and yonder.. back in the early days. 

What do you all think?

I think the implication of the phrasing "the faith delivered to the saints once and for all" is that while the substance of doctrine may have changed before the Advent of Christ because not all fundamental revelation had been given yet, Christ delivered all fundamental revelation in His life and ministry, and therefore the only development that is to occur after that point is in formulating of the fundamentals and in secondary matters.

That sounds about right.

"God, who, at sundry times and in divers manners, spoke in times past to the fathers by the prophets, last of all, in these days hath spoken to us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the world." Hebrews 1:1-2
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« Reply #44 on: July 10, 2011, 12:29:20 PM »

In theory, sure. But what is the practical difference between an "understanding" that changes like the wind, and a changing truth?

It isn't obviously to you that if tomorrow I decide that grass is purple, then the truth won't have changed but only my belief?
If you decided that it wouldn't change it. If everyone on earth decided it, then for all intents and purposes, the truth becomes irrelevant.

Not so.

"Right is right, even if everyone is against it; and wrong is wrong, even if everyone is for it."
- William Penn (I believe).
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« Reply #45 on: July 10, 2011, 12:30:17 PM »

The question is, do any of the Catholics on this forum actually agree with that criticism? (Granted Papist said that he agreed with Hahn's assessment of Orthodoxy; but he specifically excluded the stagnancy charge.) If not, then I think you're beating a dead horse.

Well, it is certainly something which looms as important in your mind. laugh

You have given us this Scott Hahn quote 3 times.

Message 96
at
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,36486.msg583807.html#msg583807

Message 27
at
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,37124.msg589626.html#msg589626

Yes, I have quoted the stagnancy charge, along with other claims that Dr. Hahn makes about Eastern Orthodoxy.

Have you never quoted something without actually agreeing with it?

And you even made it the OP for an entire thread
at
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,37651.0.html

Ah yes, I remember that thread. I was trying to learn the reason for the double standard -- i.e. why it is alright for "ecumenical" neo-conservative Catholics like Hahn to make those kinds of statements, but not for traditional Catholics.
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« Reply #46 on: July 10, 2011, 12:53:03 PM »

In theory, sure. But what is the practical difference between an "understanding" that changes like the wind, and a changing truth?

It isn't obviously to you that if tomorrow I decide that grass is purple, then the truth won't have changed but only my belief?
If you decided that it wouldn't change it. If everyone on earth decided it, then for all intents and purposes, the truth becomes irrelevant.

Not so.

"Right is right, even if everyone is against it; and wrong is wrong, even if everyone is for it."
- William Penn (I believe).
Is William Penn going to stand for traditional Catholic dogma when the "evolving theology" decides it is no longer accurate to believe Christ literally and physically Rose? Gotta keep on developing...
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« Reply #47 on: July 10, 2011, 04:46:22 PM »

I never liked Scott Hahn or his brand of apologetics.  It seems as if he converted to Catholicism, yet still tries to act in the role of Protestant evangelist (Who preaches Catholicism).  Since he is neither a bishop or priest of the RCC and, as far as I know is not licensed to preach theology by the Vatican.  Why then should any person (Whether Catholic or Orthodox) Take him so seriously?
I think some of his books are good. I just got done reading The Lamb's Supper: the Mass as Heaven on Earth and it was really good.
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« Reply #48 on: July 10, 2011, 08:08:51 PM »

Scott Hahn is a hack.  He is a frequent guest on EWTN talk shows and only think it is there where he is actually taken seriously. The sad thing is he takes himself  seriously as well.  I get a good laugh.
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« Reply #49 on: July 10, 2011, 08:16:22 PM »

Considering that *mutation* is intrinsic to what we understand as "evolution," "evolution of theology" is at best a double-edged metaphor.

Developments in the Latin West which are not attested at all in the either in first several centuries of Christian history or in any of the God-bearing Eastern fathers, like papal infallibility (proclaimed a Latin dogma in 1870), Augustinian inherited guilt (and its corollary, Immaculate Conception, proclaimed a Latin dogma in 1854), soteriology of merit, papal supremacy, nature/grace dualism, etc. etc., will likely always be viewed as theological mutations by many in the Christian East.

"Maturation" is perhaps a better metaphor than "evolution" because it does not entail the presence of mutation. In the case of maturation there is continuity as well as contrast without mutation -one can recognize an adult one knew as a child because there are both similarities as well as differences. One might also recognize the face of a friend in the creation of Dr. Frankenstein, but the continuity in such a case might be unsettling. So even on the premise of development there is a fundamental difference between maturity and development on the one hand and mutation on the other hand; that difference is continuity as opposed to sheer innovation, yet even continuity perceived for whatever reason as colored by monstrosity might be unsettling to the onlooker.

There is a legitimate scope to the question of development, which I'll just allude to rather than go into here. But honestly, any controversy claiming one side is "more evolved" (or, on the other hand, "more mutated," "more monstrous" etc.) *devolves* into little more than rhetorical flourish; at the end of the day, it seems to me, such caricatures tend to add more heat than light: "a curious breeze of garlic breath that sounds something like a snore."
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« Reply #50 on: July 10, 2011, 08:51:35 PM »

I agree.
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« Reply #51 on: July 10, 2011, 11:01:54 PM »

Of course, Father, just as St. Jude wrote:"contend earnestly for the faith which is delivered over and ove again in revisions to the saints"

 Cheesy Cheesy THAT is hilarious (and true!)!  Thanks for the laugh, Isa! Shukran, ya akhi!
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« Reply #52 on: July 11, 2011, 12:53:43 PM »

And I would add, "clarifying implications there-off." Eg. iconodulia.

I don't know about that. The EO are really hard-core about it. I've been affirmative of the veneration of icons as communicative of the divine life for years now, but I've never been able to understand the perspective that icons are fundamental to salvation history.

I think perhaps it is more that the denial of the icons perverts salvation history?

A distinction without a difference, some might say.

As simplistic as it may seem, I've never seen a real response to the criticism that we don't know what Jesus looked like and therefore the idea that we could actually portray Him even in His humanity is hubris. Rafa (who I often have found ridiculous, but not all the time) used this reasoning to indicate that the Mandylion must have been the only real icon, and I very much understood his position.
We don't know what He sounded like, nor have His exact words for the most part (they being recorded in Greek when He said them in Aramaic), but the Gospel text isn't hubris.
That's a good argument.
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« Reply #53 on: July 11, 2011, 01:20:02 PM »

Scott Hahn is a hack.  He is a frequent guest on EWTN talk shows and only think it is there where he is actually taken seriously. The sad thing is he takes himself  seriously as well.  I get a good laugh.

I am not a follower but I've listened to some of his tapes and I don't think he's a hack by any stretch.

I think he does not always express Catholic theology in a way that I find best but that hardly makes him a hack in terms of the content of his messages or even his delivery.
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« Reply #54 on: July 11, 2011, 02:02:24 PM »

Scott Hahn is a hack.  He is a frequent guest on EWTN talk shows and only think it is there where he is actually taken seriously. The sad thing is he takes himself  seriously as well.  I get a good laugh.

I am not a follower but I've listened to some of his tapes and I don't think he's a hack by any stretch.

I think he does not always express Catholic theology in a way that I find best but that hardly makes him a hack in terms of the content of his messages or even his delivery.
I think he provides a great service to the faithful. He helps to make theology understandable to those with little background in theology. Dr. Peter Kreeft does the same thing with philosophy.
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« Reply #55 on: July 11, 2011, 03:47:31 PM »

Scott Hahn is a hack.  He is a frequent guest on EWTN talk shows and only think it is there where he is actually taken seriously. The sad thing is he takes himself  seriously as well.  I get a good laugh.

I am not a follower but I've listened to some of his tapes and I don't think he's a hack by any stretch.

I think he does not always express Catholic theology in a way that I find best but that hardly makes him a hack in terms of the content of his messages or even his delivery.
I think he provides a great service to the faithful. He helps to make theology understandable to those with little background in theology. Dr. Peter Kreeft does the same thing with philosophy.
Exactly.

I don't understand all the Scott Hahn hate. It is understandable coming from Eastern Orthodox since he speaks out against Eastern Orthodoxy, but I am surprised at the Catholics that don't like him. I think he is fascinating, both to read his works and to listen to.
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« Reply #56 on: July 11, 2011, 04:21:26 PM »

Scott Hahn is a hack.  He is a frequent guest on EWTN talk shows and only think it is there where he is actually taken seriously. The sad thing is he takes himself  seriously as well.  I get a good laugh.

I am not a follower but I've listened to some of his tapes and I don't think he's a hack by any stretch.

I think he does not always express Catholic theology in a way that I find best but that hardly makes him a hack in terms of the content of his messages or even his delivery.
I think he provides a great service to the faithful. He helps to make theology understandable to those with little background in theology. Dr. Peter Kreeft does the same thing with philosophy.
Exactly.

I don't understand all the Scott Hahn hate. It is understandable coming from Eastern Orthodox since he speaks out against Eastern Orthodoxy, but I am surprised at the Catholics that don't like him. I think he is fascinating, both to read his works and to listen to.

I don't know what the thinking of those Catholics is, but speaking for myself I don't hate Dr. Hahn but I do hate the double standard. As I told Fr. Ambrose:

And you even made it the OP for an entire thread
at
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,37651.0.html

Ah yes, I remember that thread. I was trying to learn the reason for the double standard -- i.e. why it is alright for "ecumenical" neo-conservative Catholics like Hahn to make those kinds of statements, but not for traditional Catholics.
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« Reply #57 on: July 11, 2011, 06:36:27 PM »

Scott Hahn is a hack.  He is a frequent guest on EWTN talk shows and only think it is there where he is actually taken seriously. The sad thing is he takes himself  seriously as well.  I get a good laugh.

I am not a follower but I've listened to some of his tapes and I don't think he's a hack by any stretch.

I think he does not always express Catholic theology in a way that I find best but that hardly makes him a hack in terms of the content of his messages or even his delivery.
I think he provides a great service to the faithful. He helps to make theology understandable to those with little background in theology. Dr. Peter Kreeft does the same thing with philosophy.
Exactly.

I don't understand all the Scott Hahn hate. It is understandable coming from Eastern Orthodox since he speaks out against Eastern Orthodoxy, but I am surprised at the Catholics that don't like him. I think he is fascinating, both to read his works and to listen to.

I have never met any Orthodox, on the net or out in the world, who hate Scott Hahn.  That is a silly and excessive thing to say.   
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« Reply #58 on: July 11, 2011, 06:40:45 PM »

I hate Scott Baio, does that count?
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« Reply #59 on: July 11, 2011, 06:57:23 PM »

I hate Scott Baio, does that count?

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

Now now...hate ain't conducive to holiness...

 laugh
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« Reply #60 on: July 11, 2011, 07:05:52 PM »

What if I said I was 99% sure he's the AntiChrist  laugh?
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« Reply #61 on: July 11, 2011, 07:20:24 PM »

H8 the game, not the playa.
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« Reply #62 on: July 11, 2011, 07:36:36 PM »

You guys know I'm kidding, right? Sometimes my humor gets lost.
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« Reply #63 on: July 11, 2011, 07:43:53 PM »

[
I don't understand all the Scott Hahn hate. It is understandable coming from Eastern Orthodox since he speaks out against Eastern Orthodoxy, but I am surprised at the Catholics that don't like him. I think he is fascinating, both to read his works and to listen to.

What hate?  I don't like the guy's "theology" or scholarship.  And it's not about the fact he is Catholic.  There are several EO writers whom I cannot stand or defend (e.g. Frederica Matthewes-Green for starters).  I take issue with their scholarship, nothing else.  In fact, I have been quite praiseworthy of many of your pope's writings and theological insights so don't pull the Catholic Victim card--it really does you a great disservice.
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« Reply #64 on: July 11, 2011, 07:52:58 PM »

[
I don't understand all the Scott Hahn hate. It is understandable coming from Eastern Orthodox since he speaks out against Eastern Orthodoxy, but I am surprised at the Catholics that don't like him. I think he is fascinating, both to read his works and to listen to.

What hate? 

Well, maybe not hate ... but calling someone a "hack" is pretty insulting, wouldn't you say?
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« Reply #65 on: July 11, 2011, 08:07:59 PM »

^Insulting does not equal hate. 
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« Reply #66 on: July 11, 2011, 08:21:34 PM »

Scott Hahn is a hack.  He is a frequent guest on EWTN talk shows and only think it is there where he is actually taken seriously. The sad thing is he takes himself  seriously as well.  I get a good laugh.

I am not a follower but I've listened to some of his tapes and I don't think he's a hack by any stretch.

I think he does not always express Catholic theology in a way that I find best but that hardly makes him a hack in terms of the content of his messages or even his delivery.
I think he provides a great service to the faithful. He helps to make theology understandable to those with little background in theology. Dr. Peter Kreeft does the same thing with philosophy.
Exactly.

I don't understand all the Scott Hahn hate. It is understandable coming from Eastern Orthodox since he speaks out against Eastern Orthodoxy, but I am surprised at the Catholics that don't like him. I think he is fascinating, both to read his works and to listen to.

I have never met any Orthodox, on the net or out in the world, who hate Scott Hahn.  That is a silly and excessive thing to say.   
Most Orthodox don't take Hahn serious enough to hate.
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and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #67 on: July 11, 2011, 09:06:11 PM »

You guys know I'm kidding, right? Sometimes my humor gets lost.

I think you've been found....out... laugh
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« Reply #68 on: July 11, 2011, 09:18:25 PM »

You guys know I'm kidding, right?
Of course.
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If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
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« Reply #69 on: July 11, 2011, 10:17:32 PM »

Scott Hahn is a hack.  He is a frequent guest on EWTN talk shows and only think it is there where he is actually taken seriously. The sad thing is he takes himself seriously as well.  I get a good laugh.

I am not a follower but I've listened to some of his tapes and I don't think he's a hack by any stretch.

I think he does not always express Catholic theology in a way that I find best but that hardly makes him a hack in terms of the content of his messages or even his delivery.
I think he provides a great service to the faithful. He helps to make theology understandable to those with little background in theology. Dr. Peter Kreeft does the same thing with philosophy.
Exactly.

I don't understand all the Scott Hahn hate. It is understandable coming from Eastern Orthodox since he speaks out against Eastern Orthodoxy, but I am surprised at the Catholics that don't like him. I think he is fascinating, both to read his works and to listen to.

If you came into Catholicism from  a protestant backround, then I can understand your interest in Hahn and the way he present Catholic teachings.  However those of us who are cradle Catholics are not used to his style of presentation.  He just doesn't speak to us in the same way that he does to people of your backround. 

Catholicism survived for centuries without such styles of lay preaching and non clerical evangelizing.  It is very awkward to have Catholics instructed in their faith by a layman, and a convert layman at that (Who uses Protestant styles of preaching).  Yes, in the past we had many great convert theologians and evangelist, but almost all of them took holy orders and became a part of the ordained priesthood, while Hahn and those like him are just layman who have taken their own type of Protestant evangelizing ministry and switched to Catholicism.  Not something were used to seeing in the RCC (Or Orthodoxy as well).  Plus he's starting to come up with all kinds of bizarre theologies (Such as the Holy Spirit as a woman, new interpretations of the Rosary, etc...). 

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Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
-- Gustave Flaubert
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« Reply #70 on: July 11, 2011, 10:51:56 PM »

Scott Hahn is a hack.  He is a frequent guest on EWTN talk shows and only think it is there where he is actually taken seriously. The sad thing is he takes himself seriously as well.  I get a good laugh.

I am not a follower but I've listened to some of his tapes and I don't think he's a hack by any stretch.

I think he does not always express Catholic theology in a way that I find best but that hardly makes him a hack in terms of the content of his messages or even his delivery.
I think he provides a great service to the faithful. He helps to make theology understandable to those with little background in theology. Dr. Peter Kreeft does the same thing with philosophy.
Exactly.

I don't understand all the Scott Hahn hate. It is understandable coming from Eastern Orthodox since he speaks out against Eastern Orthodoxy, but I am surprised at the Catholics that don't like him. I think he is fascinating, both to read his works and to listen to.

If you came into Catholicism from  a protestant backround, then I can understand your interest in Hahn and the way he present Catholic teachings.  However those of us who are cradle Catholics are not used to his style of presentation.  He just doesn't speak to us in the same way that he does to people of your backround. 

Catholicism survived for centuries without such styles of lay preaching and non clerical evangelizing.  It is very awkward to have Catholics instructed in their faith by a layman, and a convert layman at that (Who uses Protestant styles of preaching).  Yes, in the past we had many great convert theologians and evangelist, but almost all of them took holy orders and became a part of the ordained priesthood, while Hahn and those like him are just layman who have taken their own type of Protestant evangelizing ministry and switched to Catholicism.

I don't know if it has to do with the fact that I'm American or what, but I was never bothered by the fact that he's a layman. (And I'm a cradle Catholic btw.) In fact, in college the majority of my theology professors were laymen.
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« Reply #71 on: July 11, 2011, 11:03:03 PM »

Plus he's starting to come up with all kinds of bizarre theologies (Such as the Holy Spirit as a woman...).
That's a serious charge.
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If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
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« Reply #72 on: July 11, 2011, 11:23:03 PM »

You guys know I'm kidding, right? Sometimes my humor gets lost.

I think you've been found....out... laugh
laugh
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« Reply #73 on: July 12, 2011, 12:16:55 AM »

Plus he's starting to come up with all kinds of bizarre theologies (Such as the Holy Spirit as a woman...).

Scott Hahn has written on the maternal imagery connected to the H.S., while still referring to the H.S. as "He", which is very different from saying the H.S. is a woman:

"The Catholic biblical scholar André Feuillet concludes
from the evidence in the Scriptures: “Indeed the Holy
Spirit himself appears as endowed with a function that is
in some sense maternal. A mother is primarily entrusted
with the task of giving life by bringing forth children
into the world. She is likewise entrusted, as we have remarked,
with the task of raising her children and making
mature human beings out of them . . . [W]e read in the
Fourth Gospel: ‘It is the Spirit that gives life, the flesh
profits nothing’ (6:63). At baptism are not God’s children
born of water and the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:5)?”

Father Feuillet proceeds to apply these findings to the
Blessed Virgin as well: “There is a certain connection between,
on the one hand, the virginal maternity of Mary
and the conception of the Son of God in her womb under
the action of the Holy Spirit, and on the other hand
the supernatural birth of Christians through the power of
the same Holy Spirit.”

We know Who the Spirit is by what He does, and what
the Spirit does is bridal and maternal, qualities we associate
with Mary and with the Church.We must emphasize,
however, that Mary and the Church derive these qualities
from the Holy Spirit, and not vice versa."
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If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
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