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Author Topic: Irish hermit on unions  (Read 4115 times) Average Rating: 0
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Irish Hermit
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« Reply #45 on: July 09, 2011, 09:07:07 PM »

[
Quote
Almost simultaneously with these measures the Patriarch of Constantinople died, 10 June; not, however, before he had drawn up and signed a declaration in which he admitted the Filioque, purgatory, and the papal primacy. Nevertheless the reunion of the Churches was not yet an accomplished fact. The Greek representatives insisted that their aforesaid declarations were only their personal opinions; and as they stated that it was still necessary to obtain the assent of the Greek Church in synod assembled, seemingly insuperable difficulties threatened to annihilate all that had so far been achieved.

Nihil Obstat. September 1, 1909. Remy Lafort, Censor. Imprimatur. +John M. Farley, Archbishop of New York
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06111a.htm


"TO THE OTHER afflictions which the Orthodox delegation suffered in Florence was added the death of the Patriarch of Constantinople. The Patriarch was found dead in his room. On the table lay (supposedly) his testament, Extrema Sententia, consisting in all of some lines in which he declared that he accepted everything that the Church of Rome confesses. And then: "In like manner I acknowledge the Holy Father of Fathers, the Supreme Pontiff and Vicar of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Pope of Old Rome. Likewise, I acknowledge purgatory. In affirmation of this, I affix my signature."

"There is no doubt whatever that Patriarch Joseph did not write this document. The German scholar Frommann, who made a detailed investigation of the "Testament" of Patriarch Joseph, says: "This document is so Latinized and corresponds so little to the opinion expressed by the Patriarch several days before, that its spuriousness is evident." [1] The ''Testament" appears in the history of the Council of Florence quite late; contemporaries of the Council knew nothing of it.

[1] After Hefele, Histoire des Conciles, vol. VII, pt. II, pp. 1015sq

http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/stmark.aspx
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« Reply #46 on: July 09, 2011, 09:37:10 PM »

I have not mentioned the Union of Brest for months and months.  What do you have in mind?

Well, you may not have used the phrase "Union of Brest", but you did say:

You must be aware though of the fact that after union the Archbishop of Rome will no longer be superior to Ecumenical Councils but subject to them.  Nor will he be superior to the other bishops but one of their equals.

Doesn't that imply that there won't be a union even remotely similar to Brest?


Yes, but I would like to hear what Mary has to say.

I asked you first.  Grin

But seriously, I agree with you that any future union(s) will differ from the Union of Brest in at least a couple respects -- I'm thinking specifically of the pressure that was used to bring about the union, and also the fact that there was very little respect for those Orthodox who "stayed behind" as it were. But it seems to me that you're going a lot further, and assuming that there won't be any unions even remotely similar to Brest.

The true union for which we pray will be based upon the orthodox faith in its entirety, and on the canons of the Church as regards the structure of the Church.  The interpretation and application of this will naturally be the prerogative of the Church, with due respect for the other Church and acting with charity and tolerance and with understanding for their perplexities after such a long time of separation.

In the plethora of discussions people can loose sight of these basic principles.  They may even believe, quite wrongly, that the Orthodox are dialoguing with an openness to achieve a negotiated faith.   That would be a mistaken impression.

Okee-Pokee!! 

You are so far behind the curve!!...There's not to be a "negotiated faith" at all.  Papists could not countenance such a thing!!

Nononono...

HOWEVER there may be such a thing as navigating the murky waters of understanding. 

Now THAT might bear a very good fruit.



I know that you don't see the lack of good faith in the Roman Catholic position but to outsiders it is plain. As Peter has written the Pope is not disclosing his position in the dialogue.  He won't say what position of power he wants if there is a union.   He is hiding his cards.  The Pope's refusal to be open only contributes to the murkiness.
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« Reply #47 on: July 09, 2011, 09:44:42 PM »

I have not mentioned the Union of Brest for months and months.  What do you have in mind?

Well, you may not have used the phrase "Union of Brest", but you did say:

You must be aware though of the fact that after union the Archbishop of Rome will no longer be superior to Ecumenical Councils but subject to them.  Nor will he be superior to the other bishops but one of their equals.

Doesn't that imply that there won't be a union even remotely similar to Brest?


Yes, but I would like to hear what Mary has to say.

I asked you first.  Grin

But seriously, I agree with you that any future union(s) will differ from the Union of Brest in at least a couple respects -- I'm thinking specifically of the pressure that was used to bring about the union, and also the fact that there was very little respect for those Orthodox who "stayed behind" as it were. But it seems to me that you're going a lot further, and assuming that there won't be any unions even remotely similar to Brest.

The true union for which we pray will be based upon the orthodox faith in its entirety, and on the canons of the Church as regards the structure of the Church.  The interpretation and application of this will naturally be the prerogative of the Church, with due respect for the other Church and acting with charity and tolerance and with understanding for their perplexities after such a long time of separation.

In the plethora of discussions people can loose sight of these basic principles.  They may even believe, quite wrongly, that the Orthodox are dialoguing with an openness to achieve a negotiated faith.   That would be a mistaken impression.

Okee-Pokee!! 

You are so far behind the curve!!...There's not to be a "negotiated faith" at all.  Papists could not countenance such a thing!!

Nononono...

HOWEVER there may be such a thing as navigating the murky waters of understanding. 

Now THAT might bear a very good fruit.



I know that you don't see the lack of good faith in the Roman Catholic position but to outsiders it is plain. As Peter has written the Pope is not disclosing his position in the dialogue.  He won't say what position of power he wants if there is a union.   He is hiding his cards.  The Pope's refusal to be open only contributes to the murkiness.

Yes.  Indeed.  We know that you do what you can to keep things stirred up in the negative but once in a while you slip and show your own hand...and it generally has one a them greek stones in it... Cool
« Last Edit: July 09, 2011, 09:45:09 PM by elijahmaria » Logged

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« Reply #48 on: July 09, 2011, 10:02:14 PM »

Yes.  Indeed.  We know that you do what you can to keep things stirred up in the negative but once in a while you slip and show your own hand...and it generally has one a them greek stones in it... Cool

Just once in a while it would be nice if the Pope spoke honestly to our Churches.  He could tell us what he wants out of a union.  But he doesn't say and his secretiveness makes all the dialoguing a waste of time and money.  We'd be better funding soup kitchens than sending delegates to international meetings where the main man refuses to disclose his position.  What other international negotiations in any other sphere would proceed under such a ludicrous position?
« Last Edit: July 09, 2011, 10:08:24 PM by Irish Hermit » Logged
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« Reply #49 on: July 09, 2011, 10:32:27 PM »


The thing is, he wasn't bragging about anyone. He was merely stating his observation of how powerful people can be when they unite behind a common cause, even if their cause is wrong. He didn't say it was a good thing, something we should emulate.

You are free to interpret it however you like.
As are you (which, it appears, you already have)... Wink

There are actually historical texts available mostly in languages that I cannot read, but others can, that document the behavior of the Greek people after Florence and it is pugnacious to say the least...and they carried it north to Slavic lands as well.  So much of that vaunted "turn-around" on the part of Orthodox bishops who signed the documents of union came at the butt of a very material and real cudgel, rather than from any gentle prodding by the Holy Spirit.
Do you have any idea what a gentle prodding by the Holy Spirit really looks like? I can't say that I do.

I can say that it does not look like vigilante gangs with cudgels and fists and pitchforks...but then you do claim a different faith for Orthodoxy.  So maybe you and Father Ambrose are right.  I would hope not though.
Right about what? You should know me well enough by now to know that I'm just as critical of Irish Hermit's brand of Orthodox faith

May I pay you the same compliment?   laugh


Fine with me. Wink If I can dish it, I sure as **** better be able to take it. laugh
« Last Edit: July 09, 2011, 10:34:52 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #50 on: July 10, 2011, 04:38:20 AM »

I find it fascinating that, twice, have the Orthodox bishops signed union with the Catholic Church, reneged on that union.

Dear WetCatechumen,

Not for the first time I have the honour to clear up this misunderstanding.

The much vaunted Roman Catholic propaganda that a reunion was achieved at Florence and ratified by the Orthodox but then repudiated by the "perfidious Greeks" is so much balderdash, a Western propaganda item which should be laid to rest...!

The acceptance of Florence was conditional upon its acceptance by an Eastern Council.

" However, after Patriarch Joseph II of Constantinople died only two days later [at Florence], the Greeks insisted that ratification by the Eastern Church could be achieved only by the agreement of an Eastern synod.

"Upon their return, the Eastern bishops found their agreement with the West broadly rejected by the populace and by civil authorities (with the notable exception of the Emperors of the East who remained committed to union until the fall of the Byzantine Empire two decades later). The union signed at Florence, even down to the present, has never been accepted by the Eastern churches."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Florence

Still, a tentative union was signed.
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« Reply #51 on: July 10, 2011, 04:41:38 AM »


But never has there been a mass switch the other way.

Well, there have been returns to Orthodoxy..... there are feastdays in the Church Calendar such as "Commemoration of the return of 3 Million Greek Catholics to Orthodoxy."

Also in American history we find that in the 1890s the Catholic priest Alexis Toth left Catholicism and he brought into holy Orthodoxy around 30,000 Eastern Catholics and of course their clergy. 

And when the Pope promulgated "Ea Semper" in 1907 a further 80,000 Catholics in the States abandoned the Catholic Church and came into Orthodoxy.


Your feast day is one thing. Please give a citation or more specific example? You list about 110,000 Greek Catholics who have returned.

How does this compare to the number of Eastern Orthodox who have returned to the Catholic Church?
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« Reply #52 on: July 10, 2011, 04:47:21 AM »

I find it fascinating that, twice, have the Orthodox bishops signed union with the Catholic Church, reneged on that union.

Dear WetCatechumen,

Not for the first time I have the honour to clear up this misunderstanding.

The much vaunted Roman Catholic propaganda that a reunion was achieved at Florence and ratified by the Orthodox but then repudiated by the "perfidious Greeks" is so much balderdash, a Western propaganda item which should be laid to rest...!

The acceptance of Florence was conditional upon its acceptance by an Eastern Council.

" However, after Patriarch Joseph II of Constantinople died only two days later [at Florence], the Greeks insisted that ratification by the Eastern Church could be achieved only by the agreement of an Eastern synod.

"Upon their return, the Eastern bishops found their agreement with the West broadly rejected by the populace and by civil authorities (with the notable exception of the Emperors of the East who remained committed to union until the fall of the Byzantine Empire two decades later). The union signed at Florence, even down to the present, has never been accepted by the Eastern churches."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Florence

Still, a tentative union was signed.

A tentative union, a union conditional upon approval by an Eastern Council.

The Orthodox were 100% upfront about it.

The Pope on the other hand ignored the tentative nature and went ahead and proclaimed it a done deal.
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« Reply #53 on: July 10, 2011, 04:51:37 AM »


But never has there been a mass switch the other way.

Well, there have been returns to Orthodoxy..... there are feastdays in the Church Calendar such as "Commemoration of the return of 3 Million Greek Catholics to Orthodoxy."

Also in American history we find that in the 1890s the Catholic priest Alexis Toth left Catholicism and he brought into holy Orthodoxy around 30,000 Eastern Catholics and of course their clergy. 

And when the Pope promulgated "Ea Semper" in 1907 a further 80,000 Catholics in the States abandoned the Catholic Church and came into Orthodoxy.


Your feast day is one thing. Please give a citation or more specific example? You list about 110,000 Greek Catholics who have returned.

How does this compare to the number of Eastern Orthodox who have returned to the Catholic Church?

I do not know those figures.  Mary is an Eastern Catholic catechist and she may help us.
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« Reply #54 on: July 10, 2011, 05:17:04 AM »


But never has there been a mass switch the other way.

Well, there have been returns to Orthodoxy..... there are feastdays in the Church Calendar such as "Commemoration of the return of 3 Million Greek Catholics to Orthodoxy."

Also in American history we find that in the 1890s the Catholic priest Alexis Toth left Catholicism and he brought into holy Orthodoxy around 30,000 Eastern Catholics and of course their clergy.  

And when the Pope promulgated "Ea Semper" in 1907 a further 80,000 Catholics in the States abandoned the Catholic Church and came into Orthodoxy.

Your feast day is one thing. Please give a citation or more specific example?


“With the union of Belorussia and the south-western regions to Russia there finally came to an end the age-old sufferings of the Orthodox there. At the same time there came the right opportunity for the uniates to throw off the fetters of the unia that had been forcibly imposed upon them. The Belorussian Archbishop George Konissky received many declarations from uniate parishes wishing to return to Orthodoxy. Although the Russian government did not allow him to do anything about these declarations without special permission, and itself did not give permission for about 8 years, the striving of the uniates for Orthodoxy did not wane.

When, finally, permission was given, up to 130,000 uniates went over to Orthodoxy.

In the south-western region an energetic assistant of George Konissky in the work of uniting the uniates was Victor Sadkovsky, who had been released from prison and raised to the see of Minsk (1793). With the permission of the government, he published an appeal to the uniates of his diocese urging them to return to Orthodoxy. Soon, on the orders of the government, the same was done in the Belorussian region. Moreover, the government told local authorities to remove all obstacles that might appear in the unification of the uniates on the part of the Roman Catholic clergy and landowners, and threatened the guilty with responsibility before the law, while at the same time forbidding their forcible union.

The appeals had an extraordinary success. In less than a year (from the middle of 1794 to the beginning of 1795), more than one-and-a-half million uniates had joined the Orthodox Church; the numbers of those united by the end of the reign of Catherine II [1796] came to no less than two million.”[9]

[9] Dobroklonsky, Rukovodstvo po istorii russkoj tserkvi (A Guide to the History of the Russian Church), Moscow, 2001, pp. 647-652.

http://www.orthodoxchristianbooks.com/articles/384/orthodoxy-unia-east-central-europe/
« Last Edit: July 10, 2011, 05:25:22 AM by Irish Hermit » Logged
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« Reply #55 on: July 10, 2011, 05:21:21 AM »

The return to Orthodoxy continues....

"The voluntary return of the uniates to Orthodoxy continued into the nineteenth century. Favourable conditions for this change had been created by the fall of Poland in 1815, the expulsion of the Jesuits from Russia in 1820 and the suppression of the Polish rebellion in 1830-1831. Then, in 1835, a secret committee on the uniate question was formed in St. Petersburg consisting of the uniate bishop Joseph Semashko, the real soul of the movement, Metropolitan Philaret of Moscow, the over-procurator of the Holy Synod and the minister of the interior. By 1839 1,600,000 had converted to Orthodoxy.[11]

http://www.orthodoxchristianbooks.com/articles/384/orthodoxy-unia-east-central-europe/#_ftnref9

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« Reply #56 on: July 10, 2011, 05:51:17 AM »

The Eastern Catholics on the forum will be familiar with the theological writings of Waclaw Hryniewicz.  I think we have spoken of him in connection with apokatastasis.

I read somewhere that he is one Eastern Catholic theologian (he calls himself by the term which is non-U in the States) whom the Vatican would allow to participate in dialogue with the Orthodox.

Here are his thoughts on union

The Challenge of Our Hope:
Christian Faith in Dialogue


http://www.crvp.org/book/Series04/IVA-32/front.htm
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« Reply #57 on: July 10, 2011, 05:58:37 AM »

If the RCC does at some point in the future accept Union with Orthodoxy on their terms, will we Catholics have to give up all our dogma's, traditions, and devotions which were acquired after the Schism?

Obviously you will have to give up anything inconsistent with the dogmatic tradition of the Orthodox Church. And at that, obviously you will have to give up any post-schism doctrine as dogma that the Orthodox do not care to accept as such. Otherwise, I think you should be fine to keep certain post-Schism doctrinal opinions, traditions, and devotions.

Will we, for instance have to give up the dogma's of the Immaculate Conception

I don't know. Many Orthodox will jump to say that it is a heresy that must be rejected. Some think it is erroneous but it doesn't really matter as it's not fundamental to the salvation story. Many others are willing to allow it as a theological opinion. Ultimately we don't know which party will triumph. Obviously it won't be tolerated as being regarded as dogma.

Assumption

The Assumption is essentially a common doctrine of the Orthodox Church, that is if you subtract the common Latin opinion that Mary never died. I doubt that the Orthodox will be willing to tolerate that opinion (which isn't even part of the dogmatic definition really). Otherwise I think you're good. It just also won't be tolerated as being dogma.

as well as the post Schism ecumenical councils?

They won't be regarded as dogmatic, representative of the whole Church, or even events of the Church at all. But otherwise their teachings that do not contradict Orthodox dogma should be allowed to be maintained as local traditions of your church.

What about the Marian appartions at Fatima and Lourdes?

Obviously not in the context of Mary appearing to the Church. Otherwise, we won't know until that occurs.

Also what of  Purgatory, pardons, statues, indulgences, etc..?

Purgatory as a third state of neither bliss of the righteous or torment of the wicked will most likely have to be rejected.

I don't know about statues. It depends on what is decided to be the theological implications of them.

How much change exactly will the RCC have to undergo in order to be considered acceptable for reunion with Orthodoxy?

Both less than many of the most conservative Orthodox think and more than many of the most liberal Orthodox think.
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« Reply #58 on: July 10, 2011, 06:14:05 AM »


The Eastern Catholics on the forum will be familiar with the theological writings of Waclaw Hryniewicz.


I remembered that Waclaw Hryniewicz participated in the eighth plenary of the Joint International Commission for Theological Dialogue between the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church.  This was in Baltimore in 2000 and it was a dismal failure.  This time it was Cardinal Kasper who staged the walk-out.   Shocked

Report here
http://www.wfn.org/2000/08/msg00054.html
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« Reply #59 on: July 10, 2011, 11:12:23 AM »


But never has there been a mass switch the other way.

Well, there have been returns to Orthodoxy..... there are feastdays in the Church Calendar such as "Commemoration of the return of 3 Million Greek Catholics to Orthodoxy."

Also in American history we find that in the 1890s the Catholic priest Alexis Toth left Catholicism and he brought into holy Orthodoxy around 30,000 Eastern Catholics and of course their clergy. 

And when the Pope promulgated "Ea Semper" in 1907 a further 80,000 Catholics in the States abandoned the Catholic Church and came into Orthodoxy.


Your feast day is one thing. Please give a citation or more specific example? You list about 110,000 Greek Catholics who have returned.

How does this compare to the number of Eastern Orthodox who have returned to the Catholic Church?

The current wisdom is that about half the number of Catholics who transfer to Orthodoxy either return to the Catholic Church or leave Orthodoxy for somewhere else.

The fact is that Orthodoxy is not growing.  That is not something that I gloat over however.
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« Reply #60 on: July 10, 2011, 11:17:19 AM »

Quote
The fact is that Orthodoxy is not growing.

Fidelity to the Apostolic Faith trumps numbers every time. Arius had the numbers, but his heresy was still heresy.
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« Reply #61 on: July 10, 2011, 11:34:57 AM »

Quote
The fact is that Orthodoxy is not growing.

Fidelity to the Apostolic Faith trumps numbers every time. Arius had the numbers, but his heresy was still heresy.

As a Catholic I am confident that we have the numbers and the faith.

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« Reply #62 on: July 10, 2011, 11:40:09 AM »

Numbers, yes. Fidelity to the Faith, no.
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« Reply #63 on: July 10, 2011, 11:41:53 AM »

act is that Orthodoxy is not growing.  That is not something that I gloat over however.

Yet one more "Dixit Maria" statement without foundation. laugh

To get the statistics do a google.com search with  statistics russian orthodox

Do the same for the Church of Serbia.

I see that your Byzantine Catholic Church in the States is almost on  its last legs..... a membership of 268,161 in 1990.   Now it has dropped to 88,092 in 2010.  That is a 33% loss in the last 10 years.

Source :: http://www.cnewa.org/source-images/Roberson-eastcath-statistics/eastcatholic-stat10.pdf

/\  Do ya see that, Mary,  /\  That's what known as a reference or a substantiation of what I am saying.  laugh Grin  Do you think you could try doing the same for your statement about Orthodoxy?
« Last Edit: July 10, 2011, 11:45:52 AM by Irish Hermit » Logged
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« Reply #64 on: July 10, 2011, 01:19:40 PM »

act is that Orthodoxy is not growing.  That is not something that I gloat over however.


I see that your Byzantine Catholic Church in the States is almost on  its last legs..... a membership of 268,161 in 1990.   Now it has dropped to 88,092 in 2010.  That is a 33% loss in the last 10 years.

Source :: http://www.cnewa.org/source-images/Roberson-eastcath-statistics/eastcatholic-stat10.pdf

/\  Do ya see that, Mary,  /\  That's what known as a reference or a substantiation of what I am saying.  laugh Grin  Do you think you could try doing the same for your statement about Orthodoxy?

Uhh...no. As an engineer and math minor, I do want to point out that if 88,092 people are left from an intial population of 268,161, then it is a 67% reduction.

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« Reply #65 on: July 10, 2011, 01:27:29 PM »

act is that Orthodoxy is not growing.  That is not something that I gloat over however.


I see that your Byzantine Catholic Church in the States is almost on  its last legs..... a membership of 268,161 in 1990.   Now it has dropped to 88,092 in 2010.  That is a 33% loss in the last 10 years.

Source :: http://www.cnewa.org/source-images/Roberson-eastcath-statistics/eastcatholic-stat10.pdf

/\  Do ya see that, Mary,  /\  That's what known as a reference or a substantiation of what I am saying.  laugh Grin  Do you think you could try doing the same for your statement about Orthodoxy?

Uhh...no. As an engineer and math minor, I do want to point out that if 88,092 people are left from an intial population of 268,161, then it is a 67% reduction.



Oops!  My mistake.  So it is even worse than I thought.
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« Reply #66 on: July 10, 2011, 02:16:54 PM »

act is that Orthodoxy is not growing.  That is not something that I gloat over however.


I see that your Byzantine Catholic Church in the States is almost on  its last legs..... a membership of 268,161 in 1990.   Now it has dropped to 88,092 in 2010.  That is a 33% loss in the last 10 years.

Source :: http://www.cnewa.org/source-images/Roberson-eastcath-statistics/eastcatholic-stat10.pdf

/\  Do ya see that, Mary,  /\  That's what known as a reference or a substantiation of what I am saying.  laugh Grin  Do you think you could try doing the same for your statement about Orthodoxy?

Uhh...no. As an engineer and math minor, I do want to point out that if 88,092 people are left from an intial population of 268,161, then it is a 67% reduction.



Oops!  My mistake.  So it is even worse than I thought.

Actually two mistakes:
   That is a 33% 67% loss in the last 10 20 years.
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« Reply #67 on: July 10, 2011, 02:26:56 PM »


But never has there been a mass switch the other way.

Well, there have been returns to Orthodoxy..... there are feastdays in the Church Calendar such as "Commemoration of the return of 3 Million Greek Catholics to Orthodoxy."

Also in American history we find that in the 1890s the Catholic priest Alexis Toth left Catholicism and he brought into holy Orthodoxy around 30,000 Eastern Catholics and of course their clergy.  

And when the Pope promulgated "Ea Semper" in 1907 a further 80,000 Catholics in the States abandoned the Catholic Church and came into Orthodoxy.

Your feast day is one thing. Please give a citation or more specific example?


“With the union of Belorussia and the south-western regions to Russia there finally came to an end the age-old sufferings of the Orthodox there. At the same time there came the right opportunity for the uniates to throw off the fetters of the unia that had been forcibly imposed upon them. The Belorussian Archbishop George Konissky received many declarations from uniate parishes wishing to return to Orthodoxy. Although the Russian government did not allow him to do anything about these declarations without special permission, and itself did not give permission for about 8 years, the striving of the uniates for Orthodoxy did not wane.

When, finally, permission was given, up to 130,000 uniates went over to Orthodoxy.

In the south-western region an energetic assistant of George Konissky in the work of uniting the uniates was Victor Sadkovsky, who had been released from prison and raised to the see of Minsk (1793). With the permission of the government, he published an appeal to the uniates of his diocese urging them to return to Orthodoxy. Soon, on the orders of the government, the same was done in the Belorussian region. Moreover, the government told local authorities to remove all obstacles that might appear in the unification of the uniates on the part of the Roman Catholic clergy and landowners, and threatened the guilty with responsibility before the law, while at the same time forbidding their forcible union.

The appeals had an extraordinary success. In less than a year (from the middle of 1794 to the beginning of 1795), more than one-and-a-half million uniates had joined the Orthodox Church; the numbers of those united by the end of the reign of Catherine II [1796] came to no less than two million.”[9]

[9] Dobroklonsky, Rukovodstvo po istorii russkoj tserkvi (A Guide to the History of the Russian Church), Moscow, 2001, pp. 647-652.

http://www.orthodoxchristianbooks.com/articles/384/orthodoxy-unia-east-central-europe/

So essentially, the claim is that Orthodox convinced those 3 million Eastern Catholics to join the Orthodox Church without using political pressure?
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« Reply #68 on: July 10, 2011, 07:06:16 PM »

Quote
The fact is that Orthodoxy is not growing.

Fidelity to the Apostolic Faith trumps numbers every time. Arius had the numbers, but his heresy was still heresy.

As a Catholic I am confident that we have the numbers and the faith.



Muslims can make the same claim.
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« Reply #69 on: July 10, 2011, 07:34:14 PM »

act is that Orthodoxy is not growing.  That is not something that I gloat over however.


I see that your Byzantine Catholic Church in the States is almost on  its last legs..... a membership of 268,161 in 1990.   Now it has dropped to 88,092 in 2010.  That is a 33% loss in the last 10 years.

Source :: http://www.cnewa.org/source-images/Roberson-eastcath-statistics/eastcatholic-stat10.pdf

/\  Do ya see that, Mary,  /\  That's what known as a reference or a substantiation of what I am saying.  laugh Grin  Do you think you could try doing the same for your statement about Orthodoxy?

Uhh...no. As an engineer and math minor, I do want to point out that if 88,092 people are left from an intial population of 268,161, then it is a 67% reduction.



Oops!  My mistake.  So it is even worse than I thought.

Actually two mistakes:
   That is a 33% 67% loss in the last 10 20 years.
 
I need to stop writing at 4 in the morning.   laugh
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« Reply #70 on: July 10, 2011, 07:40:07 PM »

I find it fascinating that, twice, have the Orthodox bishops signed union with the Catholic Church, reneged on that union.

Dear WetCatechumen,

Not for the first time I have the honour to clear up this misunderstanding.

The much vaunted Roman Catholic propaganda that a reunion was achieved at Florence and ratified by the Orthodox but then repudiated by the "perfidious Greeks" is so much balderdash, a Western propaganda item which should be laid to rest...!

The acceptance of Florence was conditional upon its acceptance by an Eastern Council.

" However, after Patriarch Joseph II of Constantinople died only two days later [at Florence], the Greeks insisted that ratification by the Eastern Church could be achieved only by the agreement of an Eastern synod.

"Upon their return, the Eastern bishops found their agreement with the West broadly rejected by the populace and by civil authorities (with the notable exception of the Emperors of the East who remained committed to union until the fall of the Byzantine Empire two decades later). The union signed at Florence, even down to the present, has never been accepted by the Eastern churches."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Florence

Still, a tentative union was signed.
and the check bounced, as there was nothing in that account.
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« Reply #71 on: July 10, 2011, 08:31:32 PM »


But never has there been a mass switch the other way.

Well, there have been returns to Orthodoxy..... there are feastdays in the Church Calendar such as "Commemoration of the return of 3 Million Greek Catholics to Orthodoxy."

Also in American history we find that in the 1890s the Catholic priest Alexis Toth left Catholicism and he brought into holy Orthodoxy around 30,000 Eastern Catholics and of course their clergy. 

And when the Pope promulgated "Ea Semper" in 1907 a further 80,000 Catholics in the States abandoned the Catholic Church and came into Orthodoxy.


Your feast day is one thing. Please give a citation or more specific example? You list about 110,000 Greek Catholics who have returned.

How does this compare to the number of Eastern Orthodox who have returned to the Catholic Church?

The current wisdom is that about half the number of Catholics who transfer to Orthodoxy either return to the Catholic Church or leave Orthodoxy for somewhere else.

The fact is that Orthodoxy is not growing.  That is not something that I gloat over however.
Allow me.

Just over a century ago Alexandria had an absentee Pope (off in the Phanar), only three metropolitans (when he had all) with no suffragans, only four dioceces, and 37,000 Faithful, and a couple thouand more at most in Libya, Tunisia, Sudan and Ethiopia.  Now the Pope resides in Alexandria, has dozens of Metroplitans (and bishops) in Egypt and across All of Africa, 200-250,000 in Egypt and at least as many in the rest of Africa.  All without the support of colonial powers that the Vatican and the Protestants enjoyed in Africa.
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« Reply #72 on: July 10, 2011, 09:38:53 PM »

act is that Orthodoxy is not growing.  That is not something that I gloat over however.


I see that your Byzantine Catholic Church in the States is almost on  its last legs..... a membership of 268,161 in 1990.   Now it has dropped to 88,092 in 2010.  That is a 33% loss in the last 10 years.

Source :: http://www.cnewa.org/source-images/Roberson-eastcath-statistics/eastcatholic-stat10.pdf

/\  Do ya see that, Mary,  /\  That's what known as a reference or a substantiation of what I am saying.  laugh Grin  Do you think you could try doing the same for your statement about Orthodoxy?

Uhh...no. As an engineer and math minor, I do want to point out that if 88,092 people are left from an intial population of 268,161, then it is a 67% reduction.



Oops!  My mistake.  So it is even worse than I thought.
I don’t think that this is  a mistake. I agree with Irish Hermit and not with the engineer and math minor (assuming of course that the data given is accurate and that there had been no anomaly in the data for one of the twenty years). In 1990, the membership was 268161. In 2010 the membership was 88092. That is a drop of 180069 in twenty years. That amounts to about a 67.1495855% loss over a twenty year period. So smoothed out over the twenty year period, it amounts to about 3.35747927 percent per year. In other words,  if you take a ten year period you get about 33.57479 percent loss in the last ten years. Irish Hermit gave a rounded figure of 33% loss  for ten years which is pretty close to the figure of 33.57479 percent  for a ten year period,which would be true  unless of course, there had been an anomalous  spike in one of the twenty years.
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« Reply #73 on: July 10, 2011, 11:42:20 PM »

Although I'm a baptized traditional Roman Catholic considering becoming Orthodox, I will always retain a great love and affection for Eastern Catholics and a genuine understanding and appreciation for the difficult situation they have always been in..having once been an active member of a Byzantine Catholic parish. One of my hopes if I become Orthodox is to somehow do my small part to create a climate of peace between the two groups. It may seem impossible by human standards, but I believe that with God, all is possible.

Christ prayed that Christians might all be one, and although I'm not a big fan of ecumenism as it is usually practiced, I do think there needs to be a way to achieve peace (if not theological agreement) between the Eastern Catholics and Eastern Orthodox. And as much as I do still admire the traditional Roman Catholic faith, it grieves me to know how they have dealt with both the Eastern Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox.
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« Reply #74 on: July 11, 2011, 12:10:33 AM »

act is that Orthodoxy is not growing.  That is not something that I gloat over however.


I see that your Byzantine Catholic Church in the States is almost on  its last legs..... a membership of 268,161 in 1990.   Now it has dropped to 88,092 in 2010.  That is a 33% loss in the last 10 years.

Source :: http://www.cnewa.org/source-images/Roberson-eastcath-statistics/eastcatholic-stat10.pdf

/\  Do ya see that, Mary,  /\  That's what known as a reference or a substantiation of what I am saying.  laugh Grin  Do you think you could try doing the same for your statement about Orthodoxy?

Uhh...no. As an engineer and math minor, I do want to point out that if 88,092 people are left from an intial population of 268,161, then it is a 67% reduction.



Oops!  My mistake.  So it is even worse than I thought.
I don’t think that this is  a mistake. I agree with Irish Hermit and not with the engineer and math minor (assuming of course that the data given is accurate and that there had been no anomaly in the data for one of the twenty years). In 1990, the membership was 268161. In 2010 the membership was 88092. That is a drop of 180069 in twenty years. That amounts to about a 67.1495855% loss over a twenty year period. So smoothed out over the twenty year period, it amounts to about 3.35747927 percent per year. In other words,  if you take a ten year period you get about 33.57479 percent loss in the last ten years. Irish Hermit gave a rounded figure of 33% loss  for ten years which is pretty close to the figure of 33.57479 percent  for a ten year period,which would be true  unless of course, there had been an anomalous  spike in one of the twenty years.

By jove, you're quite right, and I was quite right, even though it was 4 in the morning!   laugh
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« Reply #75 on: July 11, 2011, 12:53:43 PM »

Fr. Ambrose,
Would we Latins have to dump Aquinas?
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