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Author Topic: Irish hermit on unions  (Read 4096 times) Average Rating: 0
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Peter J
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« on: July 08, 2011, 03:35:58 PM »

Fr. Ambrose, you've said or at least implied that something like the Union of Brest won't happen again. I'm not saying you're wrong, but could you explain why you believe that?

Thanks in advance.
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« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2011, 08:00:49 PM »

Fr. Ambrose, you've said or at least implied that something like the Union of Brest won't happen again. I'm not saying you're wrong, but could you explain why you believe that?

Thanks in advance.

I have not mentioned the Union of Brest for months and months.  What do you have in mind?

It is actually not me but Mary who has appended to several of her last posts -"No Unia!"  Maybe you are confusing me with her.

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« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2011, 08:30:33 PM »

I have not mentioned the Union of Brest for months and months.  What do you have in mind?

Well, you may not have used the phrase "Union of Brest", but you did say:

You must be aware though of the fact that after union the Archbishop of Rome will no longer be superior to Ecumenical Councils but subject to them.  Nor will he be superior to the other bishops but one of their equals.

Doesn't that imply that there won't be a union even remotely similar to Brest?
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« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2011, 08:40:33 PM »

I have not mentioned the Union of Brest for months and months.  What do you have in mind?

Well, you may not have used the phrase "Union of Brest", but you did say:

You must be aware though of the fact that after union the Archbishop of Rome will no longer be superior to Ecumenical Councils but subject to them.  Nor will he be superior to the other bishops but one of their equals.

Doesn't that imply that there won't be a union even remotely similar to Brest?


Yes, but I would like to hear what Mary has to say.  Her war cry of "No Unia!" implies that she has some strong thoughts about what is not acceptable any longer.  There is a new strategy afoot.
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« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2011, 09:02:54 PM »

Quote
Maybe you are confusing me with her.

Oooooh, that's a worry!  Shocked laugh laugh
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« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2011, 09:23:33 PM »

I have not mentioned the Union of Brest for months and months.  What do you have in mind?

Well, you may not have used the phrase "Union of Brest", but you did say:

You must be aware though of the fact that after union the Archbishop of Rome will no longer be superior to Ecumenical Councils but subject to them.  Nor will he be superior to the other bishops but one of their equals.

Doesn't that imply that there won't be a union even remotely similar to Brest?


Yes, but I would like to hear what Mary has to say. 

I asked you first.  Grin

But seriously, I agree with you that any future union(s) will differ from the Union of Brest in at least a couple respects -- I'm thinking specifically of the pressure that was used to bring about the union, and also the fact that there was very little respect for those Orthodox who "stayed behind" as it were. But it seems to me that you're going a lot further, and assuming that there won't be any unions even remotely similar to Brest.
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« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2011, 10:03:28 PM »

I have not mentioned the Union of Brest for months and months.  What do you have in mind?

Well, you may not have used the phrase "Union of Brest", but you did say:

You must be aware though of the fact that after union the Archbishop of Rome will no longer be superior to Ecumenical Councils but subject to them.  Nor will he be superior to the other bishops but one of their equals.

Doesn't that imply that there won't be a union even remotely similar to Brest?


Yes, but I would like to hear what Mary has to say.

I asked you first.  Grin

But seriously, I agree with you that any future union(s) will differ from the Union of Brest in at least a couple respects -- I'm thinking specifically of the pressure that was used to bring about the union, and also the fact that there was very little respect for those Orthodox who "stayed behind" as it were. But it seems to me that you're going a lot further, and assuming that there won't be any unions even remotely similar to Brest.

The true union for which we pray will be based upon the orthodox faith in its entirety, and on the canons of the Church as regards the structure of the Church.  The interpretation and application of this will naturally be the prerogative of the Church, with due respect for the other Church and acting with charity and tolerance and with understanding for their perplexities after such a long time of separation.

In the plethora of discussions people can loose sight of these basic principles.  They may even believe, quite wrongly, that the Orthodox are dialoguing with an openness to achieve a negotiated faith.   That would be a mistaken impression.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2011, 10:04:19 PM by Irish Hermit » Logged
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« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2011, 11:15:06 PM »

I have not mentioned the Union of Brest for months and months.  What do you have in mind?

Well, you may not have used the phrase "Union of Brest", but you did say:

You must be aware though of the fact that after union the Archbishop of Rome will no longer be superior to Ecumenical Councils but subject to them.  Nor will he be superior to the other bishops but one of their equals.

Doesn't that imply that there won't be a union even remotely similar to Brest?


Yes, but I would like to hear what Mary has to say.

I asked you first.  Grin

But seriously, I agree with you that any future union(s) will differ from the Union of Brest in at least a couple respects -- I'm thinking specifically of the pressure that was used to bring about the union, and also the fact that there was very little respect for those Orthodox who "stayed behind" as it were. But it seems to me that you're going a lot further, and assuming that there won't be any unions even remotely similar to Brest.

The true union for which we pray will be based upon the orthodox faith in its entirety, and on the canons of the Church as regards the structure of the Church.  The interpretation and application of this will naturally be the prerogative of the Church, with due respect for the other Church and acting with charity and tolerance and with understanding for their perplexities after such a long time of separation.

In the plethora of discussions people can loose sight of these basic principles.  They may even believe, quite wrongly, that the Orthodox are dialoguing with an openness to achieve a negotiated faith.   That would be a mistaken impression.

I can certainly relate to what your saying, as far as the kind of union that you hope and pray for. (The kind of union that we Catholics hope and pray for would sound much the same, excepting that the roles of Orthodoxy and Catholicism would be reversed.)

However, I think we're talking past each other a bit. Of course I don't expect you to want another Union of Brest. I doubt any Orthodox want that. But not wanting it isn't the same as thinking it won't happen.
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« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2011, 12:26:57 AM »

If the RCC does at some point in the future accept Union with Orthodoxy on their terms, will we Catholics have to give up all our dogma's, traditions, and devotions which were acquired after the Schism?  Will we, for instance have to give up the dogma's of the Immaculate Conception, Assumption, as well as the post Schism ecumenical councils?  What about the Marian appartions at Fatima and Lourdes? Also what of  Purgatory, pardons, statues, indulgences, etc..?

How much change exactly will the RCC have to undergo in order to be considered acceptable for reunion with Orthodoxy?
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« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2011, 01:19:56 AM »

When I saw the title of this thread, I thought it was about labor unions.   Cheesy
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« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2011, 01:30:20 AM »

If the RCC does at some point in the future accept Union with Orthodoxy on their terms, will we Catholics have to give up all our dogma's, traditions, and devotions which were acquired after the Schism?  Will we, for instance have to give up the dogma's of the Immaculate Conception, Assumption, as well as the post Schism ecumenical councils?  What about the Marian appartions at Fatima and Lourdes? Also what of  Purgatory, pardons, statues, indulgences, etc..?

How much change exactly will the RCC have to undergo in order to be considered acceptable for reunion with Orthodoxy?

Some Catholics, such as the Eastern Catholic Churches, already exist without

the Immacuate Conception
(but could be reworked to be acceptable?)
post-schism Western Councils
(acceptable in parts, but not such items as papal infallibility)
Purgatory
Indulgences

Statues are in.

The Marian apparitions?  I don't know.  All devotion to the Mother of God is good, but in some cases doctrine is linked with the apparition.  Some aspects of doctrine linked with the apparition may need to be shed.
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« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2011, 06:40:46 AM »

I find it fascinating that, twice, have the Orthodox bishops signed union with the Catholic Church, reneged on that union.

Then at other times in history, other Orthodox churches have come into communion with the Catholic Church.

But never has there been a mass switch the other way. Sure, Western Rite Orthodoxy exists, but most of those left the Catholic Church years ago. And at Florence and Lyons the Latin Church was pretty much acknowledged to be in the right.

Also stupid me, I thought this was going to be a thread about some random monk from Ireland talking about union.
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« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2011, 07:07:59 AM »

I find it fascinating that, twice, have the Orthodox bishops signed union with the Catholic Church, reneged on that union.

Dear WetCatechumen,

Not for the first time I have the honour to clear up this misunderstanding.

The much vaunted Roman Catholic propaganda that a reunion was achieved at Florence and ratified by the Orthodox but then repudiated by the "perfidious Greeks" is so much balderdash, a Western propaganda item which should be laid to rest...!

The acceptance of Florence was conditional upon its acceptance by an Eastern Council.

" However, after Patriarch Joseph II of Constantinople died only two days later [at Florence], the Greeks insisted that ratification by the Eastern Church could be achieved only by the agreement of an Eastern synod.

"Upon their return, the Eastern bishops found their agreement with the West broadly rejected by the populace and by civil authorities (with the notable exception of the Emperors of the East who remained committed to union until the fall of the Byzantine Empire two decades later). The union signed at Florence, even down to the present, has never been accepted by the Eastern churches."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Florence
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« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2011, 07:20:44 AM »


But never has there been a mass switch the other way.

Well, there have been returns to Orthodoxy..... there are feastdays in the Church Calendar such as "Commemoration of the return of 3 Million Greek Catholics to Orthodoxy."

Also in American history we find that in the 1890s the Catholic priest Alexis Toth left Catholicism and he brought into holy Orthodoxy around 30,000 Eastern Catholics and of course their clergy. 

And when the Pope promulgated "Ea Semper" in 1907 a further 80,000 Catholics in the States abandoned the Catholic Church and came into Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2011, 07:58:44 AM »


But never has there been a mass switch the other way.

Well, there have been returns to Orthodoxy..... there are feastdays in the Church Calendar such as "Commemoration of the return of 3 Million Greek Catholics to Orthodoxy."

Also in American history we find that in the 1890s the Catholic priest Alexis Toth left Catholicism and he brought into holy Orthodoxy around 30,000 Eastern Catholics and of course their clergy. 

And when the Pope promulgated "Ea Semper" in 1907 a further 80,000 Catholics in the States abandoned the Catholic Church and came into Orthodoxy.


By 1916 the Catholic Church in America had lost 163 parishes to Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2011, 08:51:28 AM »


But never has there been a mass switch the other way.

http://acrod.org/
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« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2011, 08:57:20 AM »


But never has there been a mass switch the other way.

Well, there have been returns to Orthodoxy..... there are feastdays in the Church Calendar such as "Commemoration of the return of 3 Million Greek Catholics to Orthodoxy."

Also in American history we find that in the 1890s the Catholic priest Alexis Toth left Catholicism and he brought into holy Orthodoxy around 30,000 Eastern Catholics and of course their clergy. 

And when the Pope promulgated "Ea Semper" in 1907 a further 80,000 Catholics in the States abandoned the Catholic Church and came into Orthodoxy.

I was aware of the smaller "unions" you mentioned, but the "return of 3 Million Greek Catholics to Orthodoxy" is news to me. I can't be absolutely certain of this, but from what I can find online it sounds like political power (Tsar Nicholas the First) was a key element in their "decision" to convert (as with the Union of Brest).
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« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2011, 09:02:46 AM »


But never has there been a mass switch the other way.

Well, there have been returns to Orthodoxy..... there are feastdays in the Church Calendar such as "Commemoration of the return of 3 Million Greek Catholics to Orthodoxy."

Also in American history we find that in the 1890s the Catholic priest Alexis Toth left Catholicism and he brought into holy Orthodoxy around 30,000 Eastern Catholics and of course their clergy. 

And when the Pope promulgated "Ea Semper" in 1907 a further 80,000 Catholics in the States abandoned the Catholic Church and came into Orthodoxy.

I was aware of the smaller "unions" you mentioned, but the "return of 3 Million Greek Catholics to Orthodoxy" is news to me. I can't be absolutely certain of this, but from what I can find online it sounds like political power (Tsar Nicholas the First) was a key element in their "decision" to convert (as with the Union of Brest).

But of course!  Before America was invented these things were usually done at the instigation of the political power.  The notion of separation of Church and State is foreign to Orthodoxy and has only recently been grudgingly accepted in Rome.
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« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2011, 09:19:31 AM »


But never has there been a mass switch the other way.

Well, there have been returns to Orthodoxy..... there are feastdays in the Church Calendar such as "Commemoration of the return of 3 Million Greek Catholics to Orthodoxy."

Also in American history we find that in the 1890s the Catholic priest Alexis Toth left Catholicism and he brought into holy Orthodoxy around 30,000 Eastern Catholics and of course their clergy. 

And when the Pope promulgated "Ea Semper" in 1907 a further 80,000 Catholics in the States abandoned the Catholic Church and came into Orthodoxy.

I was aware of the smaller "unions" you mentioned, but the "return of 3 Million Greek Catholics to Orthodoxy" is news to me. I can't be absolutely certain of this, but from what I can find online it sounds like political power (Tsar Nicholas the First) was a key element in their "decision" to convert (as with the Union of Brest).

But of course!  Before America was invented these things were usually done at the instigation of the political power.  The notion of separation of Church and State is foreign to Orthodoxy and has only recently been grudgingly accepted in Rome.

Alright, but doesn't that weaken or even undermine your criticisms of the Union of Brest?
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« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2011, 10:00:50 AM »


But never has there been a mass switch the other way.

Well, there have been returns to Orthodoxy..... there are feastdays in the Church Calendar such as "Commemoration of the return of 3 Million Greek Catholics to Orthodoxy."

Also in American history we find that in the 1890s the Catholic priest Alexis Toth left Catholicism and he brought into holy Orthodoxy around 30,000 Eastern Catholics and of course their clergy. 

And when the Pope promulgated "Ea Semper" in 1907 a further 80,000 Catholics in the States abandoned the Catholic Church and came into Orthodoxy.

I was aware of the smaller "unions" you mentioned, but the "return of 3 Million Greek Catholics to Orthodoxy" is news to me. I can't be absolutely certain of this, but from what I can find online it sounds like political power (Tsar Nicholas the First) was a key element in their "decision" to convert (as with the Union of Brest).

But of course!  Before America was invented these things were usually done at the instigation of the political power.  The notion of separation of Church and State is foreign to Orthodoxy and has only recently been grudgingly accepted in Rome.

Alright, but doesn't that weaken or even undermine your criticisms of the Union of Brest?

As I understand it the creation of the Churches in a Unia with Rome was an assault upon the integrity of the Orthodox Church, it was the Pope and various Catholic governments making war on us with the hope of our eventual complete subjugation to the Roman Church.  By contrast, the Russian Tsar was reclaiming those who had once been Orthodox.



ol
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« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2011, 01:52:16 PM »

Quote
Maybe you are confusing me with her.

Oooooh, that's a worry!  Shocked laugh laugh

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« Reply #21 on: July 09, 2011, 01:57:06 PM »

I have not mentioned the Union of Brest for months and months.  What do you have in mind?

Well, you may not have used the phrase "Union of Brest", but you did say:

You must be aware though of the fact that after union the Archbishop of Rome will no longer be superior to Ecumenical Councils but subject to them.  Nor will he be superior to the other bishops but one of their equals.

Doesn't that imply that there won't be a union even remotely similar to Brest?


Yes, but I would like to hear what Mary has to say.

I asked you first.  Grin

But seriously, I agree with you that any future union(s) will differ from the Union of Brest in at least a couple respects -- I'm thinking specifically of the pressure that was used to bring about the union, and also the fact that there was very little respect for those Orthodox who "stayed behind" as it were. But it seems to me that you're going a lot further, and assuming that there won't be any unions even remotely similar to Brest.

The true union for which we pray will be based upon the orthodox faith in its entirety, and on the canons of the Church as regards the structure of the Church.  The interpretation and application of this will naturally be the prerogative of the Church, with due respect for the other Church and acting with charity and tolerance and with understanding for their perplexities after such a long time of separation.

In the plethora of discussions people can loose sight of these basic principles.  They may even believe, quite wrongly, that the Orthodox are dialoguing with an openness to achieve a negotiated faith.   That would be a mistaken impression.

Okee-Pokee!! 

You are so far behind the curve!!...There's not to be a "negotiated faith" at all.  Papists could not countenance such a thing!!

Nononono...

HOWEVER there may be such a thing as navigating the murky waters of understanding. 

Now THAT might bear a very good fruit.

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« Reply #22 on: July 09, 2011, 01:59:58 PM »

I find it fascinating that, twice, have the Orthodox bishops signed union with the Catholic Church, reneged on that union.

Dear WetCatechumen,

Not for the first time I have the honour to clear up this misunderstanding.

The much vaunted Roman Catholic propaganda that a reunion was achieved at Florence and ratified by the Orthodox but then repudiated by the "perfidious Greeks" is so much balderdash, a Western propaganda item which should be laid to rest...!

The acceptance of Florence was conditional upon its acceptance by an Eastern Council.

" However, after Patriarch Joseph II of Constantinople died only two days later [at Florence], the Greeks insisted that ratification by the Eastern Church could be achieved only by the agreement of an Eastern synod.

"Upon their return, the Eastern bishops found their agreement with the West broadly rejected by the populace and by civil authorities (with the notable exception of the Emperors of the East who remained committed to union until the fall of the Byzantine Empire two decades later). The union signed at Florence, even down to the present, has never been accepted by the Eastern churches."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Florence


Which reminds me of those good lay Orthodox... you were braggin on yesterday... in OZ carrying stones to stone their bishop...right or wrong!!...

Yea...some solid foundations for the faith there...youbetcha!!
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« Reply #23 on: July 09, 2011, 02:05:16 PM »

You are so far behind the curve!!...There's not to be a "negotiated faith" at all.  Papists could not countenance such a thing!!

On this forum "Papist" is just one person's username.
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« Reply #24 on: July 09, 2011, 02:06:30 PM »

I find it fascinating that, twice, have the Orthodox bishops signed union with the Catholic Church, reneged on that union.

Dear WetCatechumen,

Not for the first time I have the honour to clear up this misunderstanding.

The much vaunted Roman Catholic propaganda that a reunion was achieved at Florence and ratified by the Orthodox but then repudiated by the "perfidious Greeks" is so much balderdash, a Western propaganda item which should be laid to rest...!

The acceptance of Florence was conditional upon its acceptance by an Eastern Council.

" However, after Patriarch Joseph II of Constantinople died only two days later [at Florence], the Greeks insisted that ratification by the Eastern Church could be achieved only by the agreement of an Eastern synod.

"Upon their return, the Eastern bishops found their agreement with the West broadly rejected by the populace and by civil authorities (with the notable exception of the Emperors of the East who remained committed to union until the fall of the Byzantine Empire two decades later). The union signed at Florence, even down to the present, has never been accepted by the Eastern churches."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Florence


Which reminds me of those good lay Orthodox... you were braggin on yesterday... in OZ carrying stones to stone their bishop...right or wrong!!...

Yea...some solid foundations for the faith there...youbetcha!!
Where'd you read this? Huh
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« Reply #25 on: July 09, 2011, 02:12:29 PM »

I find it fascinating that, twice, have the Orthodox bishops signed union with the Catholic Church, reneged on that union.

Dear WetCatechumen,

Not for the first time I have the honour to clear up this misunderstanding.

The much vaunted Roman Catholic propaganda that a reunion was achieved at Florence and ratified by the Orthodox but then repudiated by the "perfidious Greeks" is so much balderdash, a Western propaganda item which should be laid to rest...!

The acceptance of Florence was conditional upon its acceptance by an Eastern Council.

" However, after Patriarch Joseph II of Constantinople died only two days later [at Florence], the Greeks insisted that ratification by the Eastern Church could be achieved only by the agreement of an Eastern synod.

"Upon their return, the Eastern bishops found their agreement with the West broadly rejected by the populace and by civil authorities (with the notable exception of the Emperors of the East who remained committed to union until the fall of the Byzantine Empire two decades later). The union signed at Florence, even down to the present, has never been accepted by the Eastern churches."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Florence


Which reminds me of those good lay Orthodox... you were braggin on yesterday... in OZ carrying stones to stone their bishop...right or wrong!!...

Yea...some solid foundations for the faith there...youbetcha!!
Where'd you read this? Huh

Father Ambrose mentioned it as a display of the strong points of Orthodox laity and their defense of the faith...even when wrong...

I said it sounded just like the aftermath of the Council of Florence.

He just wrote about it yesterday...Maybe even in this thread.

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« Reply #26 on: July 09, 2011, 02:27:11 PM »

I find it fascinating that, twice, have the Orthodox bishops signed union with the Catholic Church, reneged on that union.

Dear WetCatechumen,

Not for the first time I have the honour to clear up this misunderstanding.

The much vaunted Roman Catholic propaganda that a reunion was achieved at Florence and ratified by the Orthodox but then repudiated by the "perfidious Greeks" is so much balderdash, a Western propaganda item which should be laid to rest...!

The acceptance of Florence was conditional upon its acceptance by an Eastern Council.

" However, after Patriarch Joseph II of Constantinople died only two days later [at Florence], the Greeks insisted that ratification by the Eastern Church could be achieved only by the agreement of an Eastern synod.

"Upon their return, the Eastern bishops found their agreement with the West broadly rejected by the populace and by civil authorities (with the notable exception of the Emperors of the East who remained committed to union until the fall of the Byzantine Empire two decades later). The union signed at Florence, even down to the present, has never been accepted by the Eastern churches."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Florence


Which reminds me of those good lay Orthodox... you were braggin on yesterday... in OZ carrying stones to stone their bishop...right or wrong!!...

Yea...some solid foundations for the faith there...youbetcha!!
Where'd you read this? Huh

Father Ambrose mentioned it as a display of the strong points of Orthodox laity and their defense of the faith...even when wrong...

I said it sounded just like the aftermath of the Council of Florence.

He just wrote about it yesterday...Maybe even in this thread.
Could you post a link to where he says this? I'm interested to see it.
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« Reply #27 on: July 09, 2011, 02:31:37 PM »

I find it fascinating that, twice, have the Orthodox bishops signed union with the Catholic Church, reneged on that union.

Dear WetCatechumen,

Not for the first time I have the honour to clear up this misunderstanding.

The much vaunted Roman Catholic propaganda that a reunion was achieved at Florence and ratified by the Orthodox but then repudiated by the "perfidious Greeks" is so much balderdash, a Western propaganda item which should be laid to rest...!

The acceptance of Florence was conditional upon its acceptance by an Eastern Council.

" However, after Patriarch Joseph II of Constantinople died only two days later [at Florence], the Greeks insisted that ratification by the Eastern Church could be achieved only by the agreement of an Eastern synod.

"Upon their return, the Eastern bishops found their agreement with the West broadly rejected by the populace and by civil authorities (with the notable exception of the Emperors of the East who remained committed to union until the fall of the Byzantine Empire two decades later). The union signed at Florence, even down to the present, has never been accepted by the Eastern churches."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Florence


Which reminds me of those good lay Orthodox... you were braggin on yesterday... in OZ carrying stones to stone their bishop...right or wrong!!...

Yea...some solid foundations for the faith there...youbetcha!!
Where'd you read this? Huh

Father Ambrose mentioned it as a display of the strong points of Orthodox laity and their defense of the faith...even when wrong...

I said it sounded just like the aftermath of the Council of Florence.

He just wrote about it yesterday...Maybe even in this thread.
Could you post a link to where he says this? I'm interested to see it.

   
Re: Something rotten in the state of ecumenism?
« Reply #67 on: July 07, 2011, 10:27:26 PM »
   
Quote from: Peter J on July 07, 2011, 10:16:47 PM
Quote from: Irish Hermit on July 07, 2011, 10:04:55 PM
Mary,  I wonder if your attitude stems from a belief that people such as Metropolitan Zizioulas represents the mind of the Church.

He doesn't.  You will find that Saint Justin Popovic was our best theologian of the last century and Saint Justin dismisses out of hand both papal primacy and papal infallibility.  You will find that the belief of the Church is faithfully expressed through Saint Justin and it is with him that the faithful will close ranks, not with Metropolitan Zizioulas.

Alright, since you've settled that, which represented the mind of the Church, St. Cyril of Alexandria or St. Celestine of Rome? Or was it St. John of Antioch?

It is not I who will settle it.  It will be the Church and I'll bet dollars to bootstraps that the Church will back Saint Justin and not the well groomed and deodorised delegates at Theological Commissions.

Seriously..... while you can pretty much count on your Catholic faithful accepting what is decided by the Vatican,  you certainly cannot count on that with our people.

An example....... when the Greek Archbishop Stylianos of Sydney was quite active in ecumenical affairs and headed a delegation to Rome his flock came to believe that he had betrayed Orthodoxy in some way (I can't remember details.)

The first Sunday he was back in Sydney his people actually stoned him on the steps of his cathedral!   You see the power of the people, the power of grassroots Orthodoxy.

In point of fact they were quite mistaken and the poor Archbishop had not betrayed Orthodoxy at all!
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« Reply #28 on: July 09, 2011, 02:39:26 PM »

I find it fascinating that, twice, have the Orthodox bishops signed union with the Catholic Church, reneged on that union.

Dear WetCatechumen,

Not for the first time I have the honour to clear up this misunderstanding.

The much vaunted Roman Catholic propaganda that a reunion was achieved at Florence and ratified by the Orthodox but then repudiated by the "perfidious Greeks" is so much balderdash, a Western propaganda item which should be laid to rest...!

The acceptance of Florence was conditional upon its acceptance by an Eastern Council.

" However, after Patriarch Joseph II of Constantinople died only two days later [at Florence], the Greeks insisted that ratification by the Eastern Church could be achieved only by the agreement of an Eastern synod.

"Upon their return, the Eastern bishops found their agreement with the West broadly rejected by the populace and by civil authorities (with the notable exception of the Emperors of the East who remained committed to union until the fall of the Byzantine Empire two decades later). The union signed at Florence, even down to the present, has never been accepted by the Eastern churches."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Florence


Which reminds me of those good lay Orthodox... you were braggin on yesterday... in OZ carrying stones to stone their bishop...right or wrong!!...

Yea...some solid foundations for the faith there...youbetcha!!
Where'd you read this? Huh

Father Ambrose mentioned it as a display of the strong points of Orthodox laity and their defense of the faith...even when wrong...

I said it sounded just like the aftermath of the Council of Florence.

He just wrote about it yesterday...Maybe even in this thread.
Could you post a link to where he says this? I'm interested to see it.

   
Re: Something rotten in the state of ecumenism?
« Reply #67 on: July 07, 2011, 10:27:26 PM »
   
Quote from: Peter J on July 07, 2011, 10:16:47 PM
Quote from: Irish Hermit on July 07, 2011, 10:04:55 PM
Mary,  I wonder if your attitude stems from a belief that people such as Metropolitan Zizioulas represents the mind of the Church.

He doesn't.  You will find that Saint Justin Popovic was our best theologian of the last century and Saint Justin dismisses out of hand both papal primacy and papal infallibility.  You will find that the belief of the Church is faithfully expressed through Saint Justin and it is with him that the faithful will close ranks, not with Metropolitan Zizioulas.

Alright, since you've settled that, which represented the mind of the Church, St. Cyril of Alexandria or St. Celestine of Rome? Or was it St. John of Antioch?

It is not I who will settle it.  It will be the Church and I'll bet dollars to bootstraps that the Church will back Saint Justin and not the well groomed and deodorised delegates at Theological Commissions.

Seriously..... while you can pretty much count on your Catholic faithful accepting what is decided by the Vatican,  you certainly cannot count on that with our people.

An example....... when the Greek Archbishop Stylianos of Sydney was quite active in ecumenical affairs and headed a delegation to Rome his flock came to believe that he had betrayed Orthodoxy in some way (I can't remember details.)

The first Sunday he was back in Sydney his people actually stoned him on the steps of his cathedral!   You see the power of the people, the power of grassroots Orthodoxy.

In point of fact they were quite mistaken and the poor Archbishop had not betrayed Orthodoxy at all!

The thing is, he wasn't bragging about anyone. He was merely stating his observation of how powerful people can be when they unite behind a common cause, even if their cause is wrong. He didn't say it was a good thing, something we should emulate.
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« Reply #29 on: July 09, 2011, 02:46:24 PM »


The thing is, he wasn't bragging about anyone. He was merely stating his observation of how powerful people can be when they unite behind a common cause, even if their cause is wrong. He didn't say it was a good thing, something we should emulate.

You are free to interpret it however you like.  As an outsider I tend to compare it with Father Ambrose's ordinary position that the Orthodox are exceptionally peaceful and peace-loving people when compared to the blood-thirsty papes.

There are actually historical texts available mostly in languages that I cannot read, but others can, that document the behavior of the Greek people after Florence and it is pugnacious to say the least...and they carried it north to Slavic lands as well.  So much of that vaunted "turn-around" on the part of Orthodox bishops who signed the documents of union came at the butt of a very material and real cudgel, rather than from any gentle prodding by the Holy Spirit.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2011, 02:47:38 PM by elijahmaria » Logged

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« Reply #30 on: July 09, 2011, 03:19:37 PM »


The thing is, he wasn't bragging about anyone. He was merely stating his observation of how powerful people can be when they unite behind a common cause, even if their cause is wrong. He didn't say it was a good thing, something we should emulate.

You are free to interpret it however you like.
As are you (which, it appears, you already have)... Wink

There are actually historical texts available mostly in languages that I cannot read, but others can, that document the behavior of the Greek people after Florence and it is pugnacious to say the least...and they carried it north to Slavic lands as well.  So much of that vaunted "turn-around" on the part of Orthodox bishops who signed the documents of union came at the butt of a very material and real cudgel, rather than from any gentle prodding by the Holy Spirit.
Do you have any idea what a gentle prodding by the Holy Spirit really looks like? I can't say that I do.
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« Reply #31 on: July 09, 2011, 03:27:43 PM »


The thing is, he wasn't bragging about anyone. He was merely stating his observation of how powerful people can be when they unite behind a common cause, even if their cause is wrong. He didn't say it was a good thing, something we should emulate.

You are free to interpret it however you like.
As are you (which, it appears, you already have)... Wink

There are actually historical texts available mostly in languages that I cannot read, but others can, that document the behavior of the Greek people after Florence and it is pugnacious to say the least...and they carried it north to Slavic lands as well.  So much of that vaunted "turn-around" on the part of Orthodox bishops who signed the documents of union came at the butt of a very material and real cudgel, rather than from any gentle prodding by the Holy Spirit.
Do you have any idea what a gentle prodding by the Holy Spirit really looks like? I can't say that I do.

I can say that it does not look like vigilante gangs with cudgels and fists and pitchforks...but then you do claim a different faith for Orthodoxy.  So maybe you and Father Ambrose are right.  I would hope not though.
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« Reply #32 on: July 09, 2011, 03:43:51 PM »


The thing is, he wasn't bragging about anyone. He was merely stating his observation of how powerful people can be when they unite behind a common cause, even if their cause is wrong. He didn't say it was a good thing, something we should emulate.

You are free to interpret it however you like.
As are you (which, it appears, you already have)... Wink

There are actually historical texts available mostly in languages that I cannot read, but others can, that document the behavior of the Greek people after Florence and it is pugnacious to say the least...and they carried it north to Slavic lands as well.  So much of that vaunted "turn-around" on the part of Orthodox bishops who signed the documents of union came at the butt of a very material and real cudgel, rather than from any gentle prodding by the Holy Spirit.
Do you have any idea what a gentle prodding by the Holy Spirit really looks like? I can't say that I do.

I can say that it does not look like vigilante gangs with cudgels and fists and pitchforks...but then you do claim a different faith for Orthodoxy.  So maybe you and Father Ambrose are right.  I would hope not though.
Right about what? You should know me well enough by now to know that I'm just as critical of Irish Hermit's brand of Orthodox faith as I am of your Eastern Catholic faith. So why do you associate me with him?
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« Reply #33 on: July 09, 2011, 04:15:58 PM »


The thing is, he wasn't bragging about anyone. He was merely stating his observation of how powerful people can be when they unite behind a common cause, even if their cause is wrong. He didn't say it was a good thing, something we should emulate.

You are free to interpret it however you like.  As an outsider I tend to compare it with Father Ambrose's ordinary position that the Orthodox are exceptionally peaceful and peace-loving people when compared to the blood-thirsty papes.

There are actually historical texts available mostly in languages that I cannot read, but others can, that document the behavior of the Greek people after Florence and it is pugnacious to say the least...and they carried it north to Slavic lands as well.  So much of that vaunted "turn-around" on the part of Orthodox bishops who signed the documents of union came at the butt of a very material and real cudgel, rather than from any gentle prodding by the Holy Spirit.

"Gentle prodding by the Holy Spirit"? Would that contrast with those same bishops held virtually captive hostages for two years at the Emperor's insistence until they relented and agreed to the pope's demands?
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« Reply #34 on: July 09, 2011, 04:26:42 PM »


The thing is, he wasn't bragging about anyone. He was merely stating his observation of how powerful people can be when they unite behind a common cause, even if their cause is wrong. He didn't say it was a good thing, something we should emulate.

You are free to interpret it however you like.  As an outsider I tend to compare it with Father Ambrose's ordinary position that the Orthodox are exceptionally peaceful and peace-loving people when compared to the blood-thirsty papes.

There are actually historical texts available mostly in languages that I cannot read, but others can, that document the behavior of the Greek people after Florence and it is pugnacious to say the least...and they carried it north to Slavic lands as well.  So much of that vaunted "turn-around" on the part of Orthodox bishops who signed the documents of union came at the butt of a very material and real cudgel, rather than from any gentle prodding by the Holy Spirit.

"Gentle prodding by the Holy Spirit"? Would that contrast with those same bishops held virtually captive hostages for two years at the Emperor's insistence until they relented and agreed to the pope's demands?

You'd have to document how these men were held "captive" when they could all have walked home in the space of a year with time and energy to spare.
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« Reply #35 on: July 09, 2011, 04:47:38 PM »


The thing is, he wasn't bragging about anyone. He was merely stating his observation of how powerful people can be when they unite behind a common cause, even if their cause is wrong. He didn't say it was a good thing, something we should emulate.

You are free to interpret it however you like.  As an outsider I tend to compare it with Father Ambrose's ordinary position that the Orthodox are exceptionally peaceful and peace-loving people when compared to the blood-thirsty papes.

There are actually historical texts available mostly in languages that I cannot read, but others can, that document the behavior of the Greek people after Florence and it is pugnacious to say the least...and they carried it north to Slavic lands as well.  So much of that vaunted "turn-around" on the part of Orthodox bishops who signed the documents of union came at the butt of a very material and real cudgel, rather than from any gentle prodding by the Holy Spirit.

"Gentle prodding by the Holy Spirit"? Would that contrast with those same bishops held virtually captive hostages for two years at the Emperor's insistence until they relented and agreed to the pope's demands?

You'd have to document how these men were held "captive" when they could all have walked home in the space of a year with time and energy to spare.
Sorry, my dear, but you seem to be 'shooting from the hip' on this. We've discussed this at length long ago here on OC.net.
You underestimate the emperor's desire to get an agreement hoping for military aid from the west against the Turks. The pope needed an agreement in order to show HIS bishops that his claims were accepted in the east so they in the west should accept them as well. MAYBE they could have walked home...if they had been allowed to leave.
Gennadios Scholarios documented all this at the time it was happening.
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« Reply #36 on: July 09, 2011, 05:01:47 PM »


The thing is, he wasn't bragging about anyone. He was merely stating his observation of how powerful people can be when they unite behind a common cause, even if their cause is wrong. He didn't say it was a good thing, something we should emulate.

You are free to interpret it however you like.  As an outsider I tend to compare it with Father Ambrose's ordinary position that the Orthodox are exceptionally peaceful and peace-loving people when compared to the blood-thirsty papes.

There are actually historical texts available mostly in languages that I cannot read, but others can, that document the behavior of the Greek people after Florence and it is pugnacious to say the least...and they carried it north to Slavic lands as well.  So much of that vaunted "turn-around" on the part of Orthodox bishops who signed the documents of union came at the butt of a very material and real cudgel, rather than from any gentle prodding by the Holy Spirit.

"Gentle prodding by the Holy Spirit"? Would that contrast with those same bishops held virtually captive hostages for two years at the Emperor's insistence until they relented and agreed to the pope's demands?

You'd have to document how these men were held "captive" when they could all have walked home in the space of a year with time and energy to spare.
Sorry, my dear, but you seem to be 'shooting from the hip' on this. We've discussed this at length long ago here on OC.net.
You underestimate the emperor's desire to get an agreement hoping for military aid from the west against the Turks. The pope needed an agreement in order to show HIS bishops that his claims were accepted in the east so they in the west should accept them as well. MAYBE they could have walked home...if they had been allowed to leave.
Gennadios Scholarios documented all this at the time it was happening.

Condescend to someone who cares...dear... Smiley

I am not shooting from the hip actually.  I am shooting from secondary sources...the same as most everyone here does or is doing.

Gennadios Scholarios is hardly an unbiased source.

So I'll keep my understanding of the situation, and it is not your's though I am aware of the politics of the time. 

Those politics do not detract from my point about the pugnacious nature of the Greeks at all.  In fact the politics enhance that part of the story.

But you must tell me when the Church...your's or mine...have existed entirely without external influence.  I suppose to be fair I can even say that you might extend that wish out to the future...maybe...some day.  I'll take that too.
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« Reply #37 on: July 09, 2011, 05:45:01 PM »

Pugnacious Greeks...I like that. Of course no surprise to anyone who knows me.
After two years many of our bishops had no see to return to; the Turks had taken them. Many just stayed in the west making out as best they could (which was not well). Others, even in fear of the reaction they expected at home, returned and indeed found their actions rejected by the faithful.
Remember: no bishop = no church.  
Corollary: no flock = no church, as well.
Even the emperor knew his actions were not legitimate,  not announcing the "union" in Constantinople for years after.
Am I to assume that had certain Slavs been as 'pugnacious' as those "Greeks" your church would not exist as it does?
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« Reply #38 on: July 09, 2011, 05:48:18 PM »

Pugnacious Greeks...I like that. Of course no surprise to anyone who knows me.
After two years many of our bishops had no see to return to; the Turks had taken them. Many just stayed in the west making out as best they could (which was not well). Others, even in fear of the reaction they expected at home, returned and indeed found their actions rejected by the faithful.
Remember: no bishop = no church.  
Corollary: no flock = no church, as well.
Even the emperor knew his actions were not legitimate,  not announcing the "union" in Constantinople for years after.
Am I to assume that had certain Slavs been as 'pugnacious' as those "Greeks" your church would not exist as it does?

You mean the Slav Catholics who think that when you hit the priest it has to be in his head since you cannot sully his hands?...Is that what you mean?
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« Reply #39 on: July 09, 2011, 06:00:07 PM »


The thing is, he wasn't bragging about anyone. He was merely stating his observation of how powerful people can be when they unite behind a common cause, even if their cause is wrong. He didn't say it was a good thing, something we should emulate.

You are free to interpret it however you like.  As an outsider I tend to compare it with Father Ambrose's ordinary position that the Orthodox are exceptionally peaceful and peace-loving people when compared to the blood-thirsty papes.

There are actually historical texts available mostly in languages that I cannot read, but others can, that document the behavior of the Greek people after Florence and it is pugnacious to say the least...and they carried it north to Slavic lands as well.  So much of that vaunted "turn-around" on the part of Orthodox bishops who signed the documents of union came at the butt of a very material and real cudgel, rather than from any gentle prodding by the Holy Spirit.

Quote
Almost simultaneously with these measures the Patriarch of Constantinople died, 10 June; not, however, before he had drawn up and signed a declaration in which he admitted the Filioque, purgatory, and the papal primacy. Nevertheless the reunion of the Churches was not yet an accomplished fact. The Greek representatives insisted that their aforesaid declarations were only their personal opinions; and as they stated that it was still necessary to obtain the assent of the Greek Church in synod assembled, seemingly insuperable difficulties threatened to annihilate all that had so far been achieved.

Nihil Obstat. September 1, 1909. Remy Lafort, Censor. Imprimatur. +John M. Farley, Archbishop of New York
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06111a.htm
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« Reply #40 on: July 09, 2011, 08:38:02 PM »

I find it fascinating that, twice, have the Orthodox bishops signed union with the Catholic Church, reneged on that union.

Dear WetCatechumen,

Not for the first time I have the honour to clear up this misunderstanding.

The much vaunted Roman Catholic propaganda that a reunion was achieved at Florence and ratified by the Orthodox but then repudiated by the "perfidious Greeks" is so much balderdash, a Western propaganda item which should be laid to rest...!

The acceptance of Florence was conditional upon its acceptance by an Eastern Council.

" However, after Patriarch Joseph II of Constantinople died only two days later [at Florence], the Greeks insisted that ratification by the Eastern Church could be achieved only by the agreement of an Eastern synod.

"Upon their return, the Eastern bishops found their agreement with the West broadly rejected by the populace and by civil authorities (with the notable exception of the Emperors of the East who remained committed to union until the fall of the Byzantine Empire two decades later). The union signed at Florence, even down to the present, has never been accepted by the Eastern churches."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Florence


Which reminds me of those good lay Orthodox... you were braggin on yesterday... in OZ carrying stones to stone their bishop...right or wrong!!...

Yea...some solid foundations for the faith there...youbetcha!!
Where'd you read this? Huh

Father Ambrose mentioned it as a display of the strong points of Orthodox laity and their defense of the faith...even when wrong...

I said it sounded just like the aftermath of the Council of Florence.

He just wrote about it yesterday...Maybe even in this thread.



Your inability to understand what I write drives me to despair.   And what is worse, because of your lack of understanding you write snidely about me.  But this message is to say that while I do not understand why you do this, still I forgive you.   You have done it so often that you may not be culpable.  You are forgiven. 
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« Reply #41 on: July 09, 2011, 08:41:55 PM »

I find it fascinating that, twice, have the Orthodox bishops signed union with the Catholic Church, reneged on that union.

Dear WetCatechumen,

Not for the first time I have the honour to clear up this misunderstanding.

The much vaunted Roman Catholic propaganda that a reunion was achieved at Florence and ratified by the Orthodox but then repudiated by the "perfidious Greeks" is so much balderdash, a Western propaganda item which should be laid to rest...!

The acceptance of Florence was conditional upon its acceptance by an Eastern Council.

" However, after Patriarch Joseph II of Constantinople died only two days later [at Florence], the Greeks insisted that ratification by the Eastern Church could be achieved only by the agreement of an Eastern synod.

"Upon their return, the Eastern bishops found their agreement with the West broadly rejected by the populace and by civil authorities (with the notable exception of the Emperors of the East who remained committed to union until the fall of the Byzantine Empire two decades later). The union signed at Florence, even down to the present, has never been accepted by the Eastern churches."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Florence


Which reminds me of those good lay Orthodox... you were braggin on yesterday... in OZ carrying stones to stone their bishop...right or wrong!!...

Yea...some solid foundations for the faith there...youbetcha!!
Where'd you read this? Huh

Father Ambrose mentioned it as a display of the strong points of Orthodox laity and their defense of the faith...even when wrong...

I said it sounded just like the aftermath of the Council of Florence.

He just wrote about it yesterday...Maybe even in this thread.
Could you post a link to where he says this? I'm interested to see it.

   
Re: Something rotten in the state of ecumenism?
« Reply #67 on: July 07, 2011, 10:27:26 PM »
   
Quote from: Peter J on July 07, 2011, 10:16:47 PM
Quote from: Irish Hermit on July 07, 2011, 10:04:55 PM
Mary,  I wonder if your attitude stems from a belief that people such as Metropolitan Zizioulas represents the mind of the Church.

He doesn't.  You will find that Saint Justin Popovic was our best theologian of the last century and Saint Justin dismisses out of hand both papal primacy and papal infallibility.  You will find that the belief of the Church is faithfully expressed through Saint Justin and it is with him that the faithful will close ranks, not with Metropolitan Zizioulas.

Alright, since you've settled that, which represented the mind of the Church, St. Cyril of Alexandria or St. Celestine of Rome? Or was it St. John of Antioch?

It is not I who will settle it.  It will be the Church and I'll bet dollars to bootstraps that the Church will back Saint Justin and not the well groomed and deodorised delegates at Theological Commissions.

Seriously..... while you can pretty much count on your Catholic faithful accepting what is decided by the Vatican,  you certainly cannot count on that with our people.

An example....... when the Greek Archbishop Stylianos of Sydney was quite active in ecumenical affairs and headed a delegation to Rome his flock came to believe that he had betrayed Orthodoxy in some way (I can't remember details.)

The first Sunday he was back in Sydney his people actually stoned him on the steps of his cathedral!   You see the power of the people, the power of grassroots Orthodoxy.

In point of fact they were quite mistaken and the poor Archbishop had not betrayed Orthodoxy at all!

The thing is, he wasn't bragging about anyone. He was merely stating his observation of how powerful people can be when they unite behind a common cause, even if their cause is wrong. He didn't say it was a good thing, something we should emulate.

Thank you, Peter.  This was indeed the sense and intention of what I wrote and I related it to the Orthodox laity's duty to maintain the faith and to be pro-active about it.
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« Reply #42 on: July 09, 2011, 08:44:55 PM »


The thing is, he wasn't bragging about anyone. He was merely stating his observation of how powerful people can be when they unite behind a common cause, even if their cause is wrong. He didn't say it was a good thing, something we should emulate.

You are free to interpret it however you like.
As are you (which, it appears, you already have)... Wink

There are actually historical texts available mostly in languages that I cannot read, but others can, that document the behavior of the Greek people after Florence and it is pugnacious to say the least...and they carried it north to Slavic lands as well.  So much of that vaunted "turn-around" on the part of Orthodox bishops who signed the documents of union came at the butt of a very material and real cudgel, rather than from any gentle prodding by the Holy Spirit.
Do you have any idea what a gentle prodding by the Holy Spirit really looks like? I can't say that I do.

I can say that it does not look like vigilante gangs with cudgels and fists and pitchforks...but then you do claim a different faith for Orthodoxy.  So maybe you and Father Ambrose are right.  I would hope not though.
Right about what? You should know me well enough by now to know that I'm just as critical of Irish Hermit's brand of Orthodox faith

May I pay you the same compliment?   laugh

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« Reply #43 on: July 09, 2011, 08:46:41 PM »

I can say that it does not look like vigilante gangs with cudgels and fists and pitchforks...

Such things were common in all of Christendom until recently. I believe it was Stanley Hauerwas (of all people!) who said that you can tell what a society really believes in by what it's willing to kill for. We enlightened Westerners of the 21st century still do plenty of killing, but for other causes.
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« Reply #44 on: July 09, 2011, 08:53:54 PM »


Those politics do not detract from my point about the pugnacious nature of the Greeks at all.

The pugnacious nature of the Greek?!!  Oh, ho! ho! ho!

It is not the Greeks who have gone crashing into Catholic countries time and again over the centuries.  But Catholics have continually invaded Orthodox lands, Constantinople, Jerusalem, Greece, the Greek  Islands, Russia, Ukraine..... 

When was the last time "the pugnacious Greeks" were rampaging through Italy, France or Spain? 
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« Reply #45 on: July 09, 2011, 09:07:07 PM »

[
Quote
Almost simultaneously with these measures the Patriarch of Constantinople died, 10 June; not, however, before he had drawn up and signed a declaration in which he admitted the Filioque, purgatory, and the papal primacy. Nevertheless the reunion of the Churches was not yet an accomplished fact. The Greek representatives insisted that their aforesaid declarations were only their personal opinions; and as they stated that it was still necessary to obtain the assent of the Greek Church in synod assembled, seemingly insuperable difficulties threatened to annihilate all that had so far been achieved.

Nihil Obstat. September 1, 1909. Remy Lafort, Censor. Imprimatur. +John M. Farley, Archbishop of New York
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06111a.htm


"TO THE OTHER afflictions which the Orthodox delegation suffered in Florence was added the death of the Patriarch of Constantinople. The Patriarch was found dead in his room. On the table lay (supposedly) his testament, Extrema Sententia, consisting in all of some lines in which he declared that he accepted everything that the Church of Rome confesses. And then: "In like manner I acknowledge the Holy Father of Fathers, the Supreme Pontiff and Vicar of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Pope of Old Rome. Likewise, I acknowledge purgatory. In affirmation of this, I affix my signature."

"There is no doubt whatever that Patriarch Joseph did not write this document. The German scholar Frommann, who made a detailed investigation of the "Testament" of Patriarch Joseph, says: "This document is so Latinized and corresponds so little to the opinion expressed by the Patriarch several days before, that its spuriousness is evident." [1] The ''Testament" appears in the history of the Council of Florence quite late; contemporaries of the Council knew nothing of it.

[1] After Hefele, Histoire des Conciles, vol. VII, pt. II, pp. 1015sq

http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/stmark.aspx
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« Reply #46 on: July 09, 2011, 09:37:10 PM »

I have not mentioned the Union of Brest for months and months.  What do you have in mind?

Well, you may not have used the phrase "Union of Brest", but you did say:

You must be aware though of the fact that after union the Archbishop of Rome will no longer be superior to Ecumenical Councils but subject to them.  Nor will he be superior to the other bishops but one of their equals.

Doesn't that imply that there won't be a union even remotely similar to Brest?


Yes, but I would like to hear what Mary has to say.

I asked you first.  Grin

But seriously, I agree with you that any future union(s) will differ from the Union of Brest in at least a couple respects -- I'm thinking specifically of the pressure that was used to bring about the union, and also the fact that there was very little respect for those Orthodox who "stayed behind" as it were. But it seems to me that you're going a lot further, and assuming that there won't be any unions even remotely similar to Brest.

The true union for which we pray will be based upon the orthodox faith in its entirety, and on the canons of the Church as regards the structure of the Church.  The interpretation and application of this will naturally be the prerogative of the Church, with due respect for the other Church and acting with charity and tolerance and with understanding for their perplexities after such a long time of separation.

In the plethora of discussions people can loose sight of these basic principles.  They may even believe, quite wrongly, that the Orthodox are dialoguing with an openness to achieve a negotiated faith.   That would be a mistaken impression.

Okee-Pokee!! 

You are so far behind the curve!!...There's not to be a "negotiated faith" at all.  Papists could not countenance such a thing!!

Nononono...

HOWEVER there may be such a thing as navigating the murky waters of understanding. 

Now THAT might bear a very good fruit.



I know that you don't see the lack of good faith in the Roman Catholic position but to outsiders it is plain. As Peter has written the Pope is not disclosing his position in the dialogue.  He won't say what position of power he wants if there is a union.   He is hiding his cards.  The Pope's refusal to be open only contributes to the murkiness.
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« Reply #47 on: July 09, 2011, 09:44:42 PM »

I have not mentioned the Union of Brest for months and months.  What do you have in mind?

Well, you may not have used the phrase "Union of Brest", but you did say:

You must be aware though of the fact that after union the Archbishop of Rome will no longer be superior to Ecumenical Councils but subject to them.  Nor will he be superior to the other bishops but one of their equals.

Doesn't that imply that there won't be a union even remotely similar to Brest?


Yes, but I would like to hear what Mary has to say.

I asked you first.  Grin

But seriously, I agree with you that any future union(s) will differ from the Union of Brest in at least a couple respects -- I'm thinking specifically of the pressure that was used to bring about the union, and also the fact that there was very little respect for those Orthodox who "stayed behind" as it were. But it seems to me that you're going a lot further, and assuming that there won't be any unions even remotely similar to Brest.

The true union for which we pray will be based upon the orthodox faith in its entirety, and on the canons of the Church as regards the structure of the Church.  The interpretation and application of this will naturally be the prerogative of the Church, with due respect for the other Church and acting with charity and tolerance and with understanding for their perplexities after such a long time of separation.

In the plethora of discussions people can loose sight of these basic principles.  They may even believe, quite wrongly, that the Orthodox are dialoguing with an openness to achieve a negotiated faith.   That would be a mistaken impression.

Okee-Pokee!! 

You are so far behind the curve!!...There's not to be a "negotiated faith" at all.  Papists could not countenance such a thing!!

Nononono...

HOWEVER there may be such a thing as navigating the murky waters of understanding. 

Now THAT might bear a very good fruit.



I know that you don't see the lack of good faith in the Roman Catholic position but to outsiders it is plain. As Peter has written the Pope is not disclosing his position in the dialogue.  He won't say what position of power he wants if there is a union.   He is hiding his cards.  The Pope's refusal to be open only contributes to the murkiness.

Yes.  Indeed.  We know that you do what you can to keep things stirred up in the negative but once in a while you slip and show your own hand...and it generally has one a them greek stones in it... Cool
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« Reply #48 on: July 09, 2011, 10:02:14 PM »

Yes.  Indeed.  We know that you do what you can to keep things stirred up in the negative but once in a while you slip and show your own hand...and it generally has one a them greek stones in it... Cool

Just once in a while it would be nice if the Pope spoke honestly to our Churches.  He could tell us what he wants out of a union.  But he doesn't say and his secretiveness makes all the dialoguing a waste of time and money.  We'd be better funding soup kitchens than sending delegates to international meetings where the main man refuses to disclose his position.  What other international negotiations in any other sphere would proceed under such a ludicrous position?
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« Reply #49 on: July 09, 2011, 10:32:27 PM »


The thing is, he wasn't bragging about anyone. He was merely stating his observation of how powerful people can be when they unite behind a common cause, even if their cause is wrong. He didn't say it was a good thing, something we should emulate.

You are free to interpret it however you like.
As are you (which, it appears, you already have)... Wink

There are actually historical texts available mostly in languages that I cannot read, but others can, that document the behavior of the Greek people after Florence and it is pugnacious to say the least...and they carried it north to Slavic lands as well.  So much of that vaunted "turn-around" on the part of Orthodox bishops who signed the documents of union came at the butt of a very material and real cudgel, rather than from any gentle prodding by the Holy Spirit.
Do you have any idea what a gentle prodding by the Holy Spirit really looks like? I can't say that I do.

I can say that it does not look like vigilante gangs with cudgels and fists and pitchforks...but then you do claim a different faith for Orthodoxy.  So maybe you and Father Ambrose are right.  I would hope not though.
Right about what? You should know me well enough by now to know that I'm just as critical of Irish Hermit's brand of Orthodox faith

May I pay you the same compliment?   laugh


Fine with me. Wink If I can dish it, I sure as **** better be able to take it. laugh
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« Reply #50 on: July 10, 2011, 04:38:20 AM »

I find it fascinating that, twice, have the Orthodox bishops signed union with the Catholic Church, reneged on that union.

Dear WetCatechumen,

Not for the first time I have the honour to clear up this misunderstanding.

The much vaunted Roman Catholic propaganda that a reunion was achieved at Florence and ratified by the Orthodox but then repudiated by the "perfidious Greeks" is so much balderdash, a Western propaganda item which should be laid to rest...!

The acceptance of Florence was conditional upon its acceptance by an Eastern Council.

" However, after Patriarch Joseph II of Constantinople died only two days later [at Florence], the Greeks insisted that ratification by the Eastern Church could be achieved only by the agreement of an Eastern synod.

"Upon their return, the Eastern bishops found their agreement with the West broadly rejected by the populace and by civil authorities (with the notable exception of the Emperors of the East who remained committed to union until the fall of the Byzantine Empire two decades later). The union signed at Florence, even down to the present, has never been accepted by the Eastern churches."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Florence

Still, a tentative union was signed.
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« Reply #51 on: July 10, 2011, 04:41:38 AM »


But never has there been a mass switch the other way.

Well, there have been returns to Orthodoxy..... there are feastdays in the Church Calendar such as "Commemoration of the return of 3 Million Greek Catholics to Orthodoxy."

Also in American history we find that in the 1890s the Catholic priest Alexis Toth left Catholicism and he brought into holy Orthodoxy around 30,000 Eastern Catholics and of course their clergy. 

And when the Pope promulgated "Ea Semper" in 1907 a further 80,000 Catholics in the States abandoned the Catholic Church and came into Orthodoxy.


Your feast day is one thing. Please give a citation or more specific example? You list about 110,000 Greek Catholics who have returned.

How does this compare to the number of Eastern Orthodox who have returned to the Catholic Church?
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« Reply #52 on: July 10, 2011, 04:47:21 AM »

I find it fascinating that, twice, have the Orthodox bishops signed union with the Catholic Church, reneged on that union.

Dear WetCatechumen,

Not for the first time I have the honour to clear up this misunderstanding.

The much vaunted Roman Catholic propaganda that a reunion was achieved at Florence and ratified by the Orthodox but then repudiated by the "perfidious Greeks" is so much balderdash, a Western propaganda item which should be laid to rest...!

The acceptance of Florence was conditional upon its acceptance by an Eastern Council.

" However, after Patriarch Joseph II of Constantinople died only two days later [at Florence], the Greeks insisted that ratification by the Eastern Church could be achieved only by the agreement of an Eastern synod.

"Upon their return, the Eastern bishops found their agreement with the West broadly rejected by the populace and by civil authorities (with the notable exception of the Emperors of the East who remained committed to union until the fall of the Byzantine Empire two decades later). The union signed at Florence, even down to the present, has never been accepted by the Eastern churches."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Florence

Still, a tentative union was signed.

A tentative union, a union conditional upon approval by an Eastern Council.

The Orthodox were 100% upfront about it.

The Pope on the other hand ignored the tentative nature and went ahead and proclaimed it a done deal.
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« Reply #53 on: July 10, 2011, 04:51:37 AM »


But never has there been a mass switch the other way.

Well, there have been returns to Orthodoxy..... there are feastdays in the Church Calendar such as "Commemoration of the return of 3 Million Greek Catholics to Orthodoxy."

Also in American history we find that in the 1890s the Catholic priest Alexis Toth left Catholicism and he brought into holy Orthodoxy around 30,000 Eastern Catholics and of course their clergy. 

And when the Pope promulgated "Ea Semper" in 1907 a further 80,000 Catholics in the States abandoned the Catholic Church and came into Orthodoxy.


Your feast day is one thing. Please give a citation or more specific example? You list about 110,000 Greek Catholics who have returned.

How does this compare to the number of Eastern Orthodox who have returned to the Catholic Church?

I do not know those figures.  Mary is an Eastern Catholic catechist and she may help us.
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« Reply #54 on: July 10, 2011, 05:17:04 AM »


But never has there been a mass switch the other way.

Well, there have been returns to Orthodoxy..... there are feastdays in the Church Calendar such as "Commemoration of the return of 3 Million Greek Catholics to Orthodoxy."

Also in American history we find that in the 1890s the Catholic priest Alexis Toth left Catholicism and he brought into holy Orthodoxy around 30,000 Eastern Catholics and of course their clergy.  

And when the Pope promulgated "Ea Semper" in 1907 a further 80,000 Catholics in the States abandoned the Catholic Church and came into Orthodoxy.

Your feast day is one thing. Please give a citation or more specific example?


“With the union of Belorussia and the south-western regions to Russia there finally came to an end the age-old sufferings of the Orthodox there. At the same time there came the right opportunity for the uniates to throw off the fetters of the unia that had been forcibly imposed upon them. The Belorussian Archbishop George Konissky received many declarations from uniate parishes wishing to return to Orthodoxy. Although the Russian government did not allow him to do anything about these declarations without special permission, and itself did not give permission for about 8 years, the striving of the uniates for Orthodoxy did not wane.

When, finally, permission was given, up to 130,000 uniates went over to Orthodoxy.

In the south-western region an energetic assistant of George Konissky in the work of uniting the uniates was Victor Sadkovsky, who had been released from prison and raised to the see of Minsk (1793). With the permission of the government, he published an appeal to the uniates of his diocese urging them to return to Orthodoxy. Soon, on the orders of the government, the same was done in the Belorussian region. Moreover, the government told local authorities to remove all obstacles that might appear in the unification of the uniates on the part of the Roman Catholic clergy and landowners, and threatened the guilty with responsibility before the law, while at the same time forbidding their forcible union.

The appeals had an extraordinary success. In less than a year (from the middle of 1794 to the beginning of 1795), more than one-and-a-half million uniates had joined the Orthodox Church; the numbers of those united by the end of the reign of Catherine II [1796] came to no less than two million.”[9]

[9] Dobroklonsky, Rukovodstvo po istorii russkoj tserkvi (A Guide to the History of the Russian Church), Moscow, 2001, pp. 647-652.

http://www.orthodoxchristianbooks.com/articles/384/orthodoxy-unia-east-central-europe/
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« Reply #55 on: July 10, 2011, 05:21:21 AM »

The return to Orthodoxy continues....

"The voluntary return of the uniates to Orthodoxy continued into the nineteenth century. Favourable conditions for this change had been created by the fall of Poland in 1815, the expulsion of the Jesuits from Russia in 1820 and the suppression of the Polish rebellion in 1830-1831. Then, in 1835, a secret committee on the uniate question was formed in St. Petersburg consisting of the uniate bishop Joseph Semashko, the real soul of the movement, Metropolitan Philaret of Moscow, the over-procurator of the Holy Synod and the minister of the interior. By 1839 1,600,000 had converted to Orthodoxy.[11]

http://www.orthodoxchristianbooks.com/articles/384/orthodoxy-unia-east-central-europe/#_ftnref9

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« Reply #56 on: July 10, 2011, 05:51:17 AM »

The Eastern Catholics on the forum will be familiar with the theological writings of Waclaw Hryniewicz.  I think we have spoken of him in connection with apokatastasis.

I read somewhere that he is one Eastern Catholic theologian (he calls himself by the term which is non-U in the States) whom the Vatican would allow to participate in dialogue with the Orthodox.

Here are his thoughts on union

The Challenge of Our Hope:
Christian Faith in Dialogue


http://www.crvp.org/book/Series04/IVA-32/front.htm
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« Reply #57 on: July 10, 2011, 05:58:37 AM »

If the RCC does at some point in the future accept Union with Orthodoxy on their terms, will we Catholics have to give up all our dogma's, traditions, and devotions which were acquired after the Schism?

Obviously you will have to give up anything inconsistent with the dogmatic tradition of the Orthodox Church. And at that, obviously you will have to give up any post-schism doctrine as dogma that the Orthodox do not care to accept as such. Otherwise, I think you should be fine to keep certain post-Schism doctrinal opinions, traditions, and devotions.

Will we, for instance have to give up the dogma's of the Immaculate Conception

I don't know. Many Orthodox will jump to say that it is a heresy that must be rejected. Some think it is erroneous but it doesn't really matter as it's not fundamental to the salvation story. Many others are willing to allow it as a theological opinion. Ultimately we don't know which party will triumph. Obviously it won't be tolerated as being regarded as dogma.

Assumption

The Assumption is essentially a common doctrine of the Orthodox Church, that is if you subtract the common Latin opinion that Mary never died. I doubt that the Orthodox will be willing to tolerate that opinion (which isn't even part of the dogmatic definition really). Otherwise I think you're good. It just also won't be tolerated as being dogma.

as well as the post Schism ecumenical councils?

They won't be regarded as dogmatic, representative of the whole Church, or even events of the Church at all. But otherwise their teachings that do not contradict Orthodox dogma should be allowed to be maintained as local traditions of your church.

What about the Marian appartions at Fatima and Lourdes?

Obviously not in the context of Mary appearing to the Church. Otherwise, we won't know until that occurs.

Also what of  Purgatory, pardons, statues, indulgences, etc..?

Purgatory as a third state of neither bliss of the righteous or torment of the wicked will most likely have to be rejected.

I don't know about statues. It depends on what is decided to be the theological implications of them.

How much change exactly will the RCC have to undergo in order to be considered acceptable for reunion with Orthodoxy?

Both less than many of the most conservative Orthodox think and more than many of the most liberal Orthodox think.
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« Reply #58 on: July 10, 2011, 06:14:05 AM »


The Eastern Catholics on the forum will be familiar with the theological writings of Waclaw Hryniewicz.


I remembered that Waclaw Hryniewicz participated in the eighth plenary of the Joint International Commission for Theological Dialogue between the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church.  This was in Baltimore in 2000 and it was a dismal failure.  This time it was Cardinal Kasper who staged the walk-out.   Shocked

Report here
http://www.wfn.org/2000/08/msg00054.html
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« Reply #59 on: July 10, 2011, 11:12:23 AM »


But never has there been a mass switch the other way.

Well, there have been returns to Orthodoxy..... there are feastdays in the Church Calendar such as "Commemoration of the return of 3 Million Greek Catholics to Orthodoxy."

Also in American history we find that in the 1890s the Catholic priest Alexis Toth left Catholicism and he brought into holy Orthodoxy around 30,000 Eastern Catholics and of course their clergy. 

And when the Pope promulgated "Ea Semper" in 1907 a further 80,000 Catholics in the States abandoned the Catholic Church and came into Orthodoxy.


Your feast day is one thing. Please give a citation or more specific example? You list about 110,000 Greek Catholics who have returned.

How does this compare to the number of Eastern Orthodox who have returned to the Catholic Church?

The current wisdom is that about half the number of Catholics who transfer to Orthodoxy either return to the Catholic Church or leave Orthodoxy for somewhere else.

The fact is that Orthodoxy is not growing.  That is not something that I gloat over however.
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« Reply #60 on: July 10, 2011, 11:17:19 AM »

Quote
The fact is that Orthodoxy is not growing.

Fidelity to the Apostolic Faith trumps numbers every time. Arius had the numbers, but his heresy was still heresy.
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« Reply #61 on: July 10, 2011, 11:34:57 AM »

Quote
The fact is that Orthodoxy is not growing.

Fidelity to the Apostolic Faith trumps numbers every time. Arius had the numbers, but his heresy was still heresy.

As a Catholic I am confident that we have the numbers and the faith.

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« Reply #62 on: July 10, 2011, 11:40:09 AM »

Numbers, yes. Fidelity to the Faith, no.
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« Reply #63 on: July 10, 2011, 11:41:53 AM »

act is that Orthodoxy is not growing.  That is not something that I gloat over however.

Yet one more "Dixit Maria" statement without foundation. laugh

To get the statistics do a google.com search with  statistics russian orthodox

Do the same for the Church of Serbia.

I see that your Byzantine Catholic Church in the States is almost on  its last legs..... a membership of 268,161 in 1990.   Now it has dropped to 88,092 in 2010.  That is a 33% loss in the last 10 years.

Source :: http://www.cnewa.org/source-images/Roberson-eastcath-statistics/eastcatholic-stat10.pdf

/\  Do ya see that, Mary,  /\  That's what known as a reference or a substantiation of what I am saying.  laugh Grin  Do you think you could try doing the same for your statement about Orthodoxy?
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« Reply #64 on: July 10, 2011, 01:19:40 PM »

act is that Orthodoxy is not growing.  That is not something that I gloat over however.


I see that your Byzantine Catholic Church in the States is almost on  its last legs..... a membership of 268,161 in 1990.   Now it has dropped to 88,092 in 2010.  That is a 33% loss in the last 10 years.

Source :: http://www.cnewa.org/source-images/Roberson-eastcath-statistics/eastcatholic-stat10.pdf

/\  Do ya see that, Mary,  /\  That's what known as a reference or a substantiation of what I am saying.  laugh Grin  Do you think you could try doing the same for your statement about Orthodoxy?

Uhh...no. As an engineer and math minor, I do want to point out that if 88,092 people are left from an intial population of 268,161, then it is a 67% reduction.

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« Reply #65 on: July 10, 2011, 01:27:29 PM »

act is that Orthodoxy is not growing.  That is not something that I gloat over however.


I see that your Byzantine Catholic Church in the States is almost on  its last legs..... a membership of 268,161 in 1990.   Now it has dropped to 88,092 in 2010.  That is a 33% loss in the last 10 years.

Source :: http://www.cnewa.org/source-images/Roberson-eastcath-statistics/eastcatholic-stat10.pdf

/\  Do ya see that, Mary,  /\  That's what known as a reference or a substantiation of what I am saying.  laugh Grin  Do you think you could try doing the same for your statement about Orthodoxy?

Uhh...no. As an engineer and math minor, I do want to point out that if 88,092 people are left from an intial population of 268,161, then it is a 67% reduction.



Oops!  My mistake.  So it is even worse than I thought.
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« Reply #66 on: July 10, 2011, 02:16:54 PM »

act is that Orthodoxy is not growing.  That is not something that I gloat over however.


I see that your Byzantine Catholic Church in the States is almost on  its last legs..... a membership of 268,161 in 1990.   Now it has dropped to 88,092 in 2010.  That is a 33% loss in the last 10 years.

Source :: http://www.cnewa.org/source-images/Roberson-eastcath-statistics/eastcatholic-stat10.pdf

/\  Do ya see that, Mary,  /\  That's what known as a reference or a substantiation of what I am saying.  laugh Grin  Do you think you could try doing the same for your statement about Orthodoxy?

Uhh...no. As an engineer and math minor, I do want to point out that if 88,092 people are left from an intial population of 268,161, then it is a 67% reduction.



Oops!  My mistake.  So it is even worse than I thought.

Actually two mistakes:
   That is a 33% 67% loss in the last 10 20 years.
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« Reply #67 on: July 10, 2011, 02:26:56 PM »


But never has there been a mass switch the other way.

Well, there have been returns to Orthodoxy..... there are feastdays in the Church Calendar such as "Commemoration of the return of 3 Million Greek Catholics to Orthodoxy."

Also in American history we find that in the 1890s the Catholic priest Alexis Toth left Catholicism and he brought into holy Orthodoxy around 30,000 Eastern Catholics and of course their clergy.  

And when the Pope promulgated "Ea Semper" in 1907 a further 80,000 Catholics in the States abandoned the Catholic Church and came into Orthodoxy.

Your feast day is one thing. Please give a citation or more specific example?


“With the union of Belorussia and the south-western regions to Russia there finally came to an end the age-old sufferings of the Orthodox there. At the same time there came the right opportunity for the uniates to throw off the fetters of the unia that had been forcibly imposed upon them. The Belorussian Archbishop George Konissky received many declarations from uniate parishes wishing to return to Orthodoxy. Although the Russian government did not allow him to do anything about these declarations without special permission, and itself did not give permission for about 8 years, the striving of the uniates for Orthodoxy did not wane.

When, finally, permission was given, up to 130,000 uniates went over to Orthodoxy.

In the south-western region an energetic assistant of George Konissky in the work of uniting the uniates was Victor Sadkovsky, who had been released from prison and raised to the see of Minsk (1793). With the permission of the government, he published an appeal to the uniates of his diocese urging them to return to Orthodoxy. Soon, on the orders of the government, the same was done in the Belorussian region. Moreover, the government told local authorities to remove all obstacles that might appear in the unification of the uniates on the part of the Roman Catholic clergy and landowners, and threatened the guilty with responsibility before the law, while at the same time forbidding their forcible union.

The appeals had an extraordinary success. In less than a year (from the middle of 1794 to the beginning of 1795), more than one-and-a-half million uniates had joined the Orthodox Church; the numbers of those united by the end of the reign of Catherine II [1796] came to no less than two million.”[9]

[9] Dobroklonsky, Rukovodstvo po istorii russkoj tserkvi (A Guide to the History of the Russian Church), Moscow, 2001, pp. 647-652.

http://www.orthodoxchristianbooks.com/articles/384/orthodoxy-unia-east-central-europe/

So essentially, the claim is that Orthodox convinced those 3 million Eastern Catholics to join the Orthodox Church without using political pressure?
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« Reply #68 on: July 10, 2011, 07:06:16 PM »

Quote
The fact is that Orthodoxy is not growing.

Fidelity to the Apostolic Faith trumps numbers every time. Arius had the numbers, but his heresy was still heresy.

As a Catholic I am confident that we have the numbers and the faith.



Muslims can make the same claim.
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« Reply #69 on: July 10, 2011, 07:34:14 PM »

act is that Orthodoxy is not growing.  That is not something that I gloat over however.


I see that your Byzantine Catholic Church in the States is almost on  its last legs..... a membership of 268,161 in 1990.   Now it has dropped to 88,092 in 2010.  That is a 33% loss in the last 10 years.

Source :: http://www.cnewa.org/source-images/Roberson-eastcath-statistics/eastcatholic-stat10.pdf

/\  Do ya see that, Mary,  /\  That's what known as a reference or a substantiation of what I am saying.  laugh Grin  Do you think you could try doing the same for your statement about Orthodoxy?

Uhh...no. As an engineer and math minor, I do want to point out that if 88,092 people are left from an intial population of 268,161, then it is a 67% reduction.



Oops!  My mistake.  So it is even worse than I thought.

Actually two mistakes:
   That is a 33% 67% loss in the last 10 20 years.
 
I need to stop writing at 4 in the morning.   laugh
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« Reply #70 on: July 10, 2011, 07:40:07 PM »

I find it fascinating that, twice, have the Orthodox bishops signed union with the Catholic Church, reneged on that union.

Dear WetCatechumen,

Not for the first time I have the honour to clear up this misunderstanding.

The much vaunted Roman Catholic propaganda that a reunion was achieved at Florence and ratified by the Orthodox but then repudiated by the "perfidious Greeks" is so much balderdash, a Western propaganda item which should be laid to rest...!

The acceptance of Florence was conditional upon its acceptance by an Eastern Council.

" However, after Patriarch Joseph II of Constantinople died only two days later [at Florence], the Greeks insisted that ratification by the Eastern Church could be achieved only by the agreement of an Eastern synod.

"Upon their return, the Eastern bishops found their agreement with the West broadly rejected by the populace and by civil authorities (with the notable exception of the Emperors of the East who remained committed to union until the fall of the Byzantine Empire two decades later). The union signed at Florence, even down to the present, has never been accepted by the Eastern churches."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Florence

Still, a tentative union was signed.
and the check bounced, as there was nothing in that account.
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« Reply #71 on: July 10, 2011, 08:31:32 PM »


But never has there been a mass switch the other way.

Well, there have been returns to Orthodoxy..... there are feastdays in the Church Calendar such as "Commemoration of the return of 3 Million Greek Catholics to Orthodoxy."

Also in American history we find that in the 1890s the Catholic priest Alexis Toth left Catholicism and he brought into holy Orthodoxy around 30,000 Eastern Catholics and of course their clergy. 

And when the Pope promulgated "Ea Semper" in 1907 a further 80,000 Catholics in the States abandoned the Catholic Church and came into Orthodoxy.


Your feast day is one thing. Please give a citation or more specific example? You list about 110,000 Greek Catholics who have returned.

How does this compare to the number of Eastern Orthodox who have returned to the Catholic Church?

The current wisdom is that about half the number of Catholics who transfer to Orthodoxy either return to the Catholic Church or leave Orthodoxy for somewhere else.

The fact is that Orthodoxy is not growing.  That is not something that I gloat over however.
Allow me.

Just over a century ago Alexandria had an absentee Pope (off in the Phanar), only three metropolitans (when he had all) with no suffragans, only four dioceces, and 37,000 Faithful, and a couple thouand more at most in Libya, Tunisia, Sudan and Ethiopia.  Now the Pope resides in Alexandria, has dozens of Metroplitans (and bishops) in Egypt and across All of Africa, 200-250,000 in Egypt and at least as many in the rest of Africa.  All without the support of colonial powers that the Vatican and the Protestants enjoyed in Africa.
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« Reply #72 on: July 10, 2011, 09:38:53 PM »

act is that Orthodoxy is not growing.  That is not something that I gloat over however.


I see that your Byzantine Catholic Church in the States is almost on  its last legs..... a membership of 268,161 in 1990.   Now it has dropped to 88,092 in 2010.  That is a 33% loss in the last 10 years.

Source :: http://www.cnewa.org/source-images/Roberson-eastcath-statistics/eastcatholic-stat10.pdf

/\  Do ya see that, Mary,  /\  That's what known as a reference or a substantiation of what I am saying.  laugh Grin  Do you think you could try doing the same for your statement about Orthodoxy?

Uhh...no. As an engineer and math minor, I do want to point out that if 88,092 people are left from an intial population of 268,161, then it is a 67% reduction.



Oops!  My mistake.  So it is even worse than I thought.
I don’t think that this is  a mistake. I agree with Irish Hermit and not with the engineer and math minor (assuming of course that the data given is accurate and that there had been no anomaly in the data for one of the twenty years). In 1990, the membership was 268161. In 2010 the membership was 88092. That is a drop of 180069 in twenty years. That amounts to about a 67.1495855% loss over a twenty year period. So smoothed out over the twenty year period, it amounts to about 3.35747927 percent per year. In other words,  if you take a ten year period you get about 33.57479 percent loss in the last ten years. Irish Hermit gave a rounded figure of 33% loss  for ten years which is pretty close to the figure of 33.57479 percent  for a ten year period,which would be true  unless of course, there had been an anomalous  spike in one of the twenty years.
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« Reply #73 on: July 10, 2011, 11:42:20 PM »

Although I'm a baptized traditional Roman Catholic considering becoming Orthodox, I will always retain a great love and affection for Eastern Catholics and a genuine understanding and appreciation for the difficult situation they have always been in..having once been an active member of a Byzantine Catholic parish. One of my hopes if I become Orthodox is to somehow do my small part to create a climate of peace between the two groups. It may seem impossible by human standards, but I believe that with God, all is possible.

Christ prayed that Christians might all be one, and although I'm not a big fan of ecumenism as it is usually practiced, I do think there needs to be a way to achieve peace (if not theological agreement) between the Eastern Catholics and Eastern Orthodox. And as much as I do still admire the traditional Roman Catholic faith, it grieves me to know how they have dealt with both the Eastern Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox.
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« Reply #74 on: July 11, 2011, 12:10:33 AM »

act is that Orthodoxy is not growing.  That is not something that I gloat over however.


I see that your Byzantine Catholic Church in the States is almost on  its last legs..... a membership of 268,161 in 1990.   Now it has dropped to 88,092 in 2010.  That is a 33% loss in the last 10 years.

Source :: http://www.cnewa.org/source-images/Roberson-eastcath-statistics/eastcatholic-stat10.pdf

/\  Do ya see that, Mary,  /\  That's what known as a reference or a substantiation of what I am saying.  laugh Grin  Do you think you could try doing the same for your statement about Orthodoxy?

Uhh...no. As an engineer and math minor, I do want to point out that if 88,092 people are left from an intial population of 268,161, then it is a 67% reduction.



Oops!  My mistake.  So it is even worse than I thought.
I don’t think that this is  a mistake. I agree with Irish Hermit and not with the engineer and math minor (assuming of course that the data given is accurate and that there had been no anomaly in the data for one of the twenty years). In 1990, the membership was 268161. In 2010 the membership was 88092. That is a drop of 180069 in twenty years. That amounts to about a 67.1495855% loss over a twenty year period. So smoothed out over the twenty year period, it amounts to about 3.35747927 percent per year. In other words,  if you take a ten year period you get about 33.57479 percent loss in the last ten years. Irish Hermit gave a rounded figure of 33% loss  for ten years which is pretty close to the figure of 33.57479 percent  for a ten year period,which would be true  unless of course, there had been an anomalous  spike in one of the twenty years.

By jove, you're quite right, and I was quite right, even though it was 4 in the morning!   laugh
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« Reply #75 on: July 11, 2011, 12:53:43 PM »

Fr. Ambrose,
Would we Latins have to dump Aquinas?
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