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Author Topic: Communion from a Priest Outside Your Own Church  (Read 6701 times) Average Rating: 0
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celticfan1888
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« Reply #45 on: July 09, 2011, 02:11:16 PM »

But why would you report me for stating on an Orthodox forum what the Orthodox Fathers attested to, at the 4th Ecumenical Council? The point is however, that Orthodox Christians may not attend or commune in non Orthodox Churches because of the belief that the Orthodox Church is the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. If you as an Armenian or Copt or whatever you are would like to come to an Orthodox Church, you are certainly welcome to... without partaking in any Mysteries nor receiving any blessings (antidoron, holy water, oil).

Amen.
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« Reply #46 on: July 09, 2011, 05:50:29 PM »

Interesting so the Assyrian "Orthodox" are definitely out. But the Oriental "Orthodox" are in? Both have been condemned by an Ecumenical Council as being graceless heretics. I wouldn't attend a non Orthodox Church if I was in an area that had absolutely no Orthodox parish. Why would I? I might as well go have bacon and eggs, or go bowling, or do any of a number of things.

Bottom line is, if you're an Orthodox Christian and you find yourself in an area with no Orthodox parish you should do services on your own, Matins, Hours, Akathists, etc.

Yes, the Assyrians are out, and the OOs are in. Yes, both have been declared heretics in the past. However, there is a difference between them. The EO and OO have always maintained a relationship, and always accepted that there is something grace-filled among the other. You can read the history about EOs and OOs accepting each other's clergy by vesting and their laity by confession of faith. Never, to my knowledge, has either communion had the regular policy of chrismating/baptizing converts from each other.

And now, in the last few years, much dialogue has occurred between the OO and the EO, and we have signed declarations stating each other's Orthodoxy and lifted anathemas. We recognize a unity of faith and are working towards the very attainable goal of full, eucharistic reunification. There has been no dialogue with the Nestorians, who have walled themselves off from the Church and are dying off. They have been cut off from the church, the OO have not.

Since I saw that you are ROCOR, let me mention that the Russian Orthodox Church, has been a leader in dialogue both with the OOC and the RCC. To my knowledge, the Russian Orthodox Church maintains the belief that the OO hold valid sacraments, as  do the RCs. I know many ROC, laity and clergy, that will cross themselves when they pass a Roman Catholic temple in veneration of their Eucharist.
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« Reply #47 on: July 09, 2011, 06:13:43 PM »

Interesting so the Assyrian "Orthodox" are definitely out. But the Oriental "Orthodox" are in? Both have been condemned by an Ecumenical Council as being graceless heretics. I wouldn't attend a non Orthodox Church if I was in an area that had absolutely no Orthodox parish. Why would I? I might as well go have bacon and eggs, or go bowling, or do any of a number of things.

Bottom line is, if you're an Orthodox Christian and you find yourself in an area with no Orthodox parish you should do services on your own, Matins, Hours, Akathists, etc.

Yes, the Assyrians are out, and the OOs are in. Yes, both have been declared heretics in the past. However, there is a difference between them. The EO and OO have always maintained a relationship, and always accepted that there is something grace-filled among the other. You can read the history about EOs and OOs accepting each other's clergy by vesting and their laity by confession of faith. Never, to my knowledge, has either communion had the regular policy of chrismating/baptizing converts from each other.

And now, in the last few years, much dialogue has occurred between the OO and the EO, and we have signed declarations stating each other's Orthodoxy and lifted anathemas. We recognize a unity of faith and are working towards the very attainable goal of full, eucharistic reunification. There has been no dialogue with the Nestorians, who have walled themselves off from the Church and are dying off. They have been cut off from the church, the OO have not.


Since I saw that you are ROCOR, let me mention that the Russian Orthodox Church, has been a leader in dialogue both with the OOC and the RCC. To my knowledge, the Russian Orthodox Church maintains the belief that the OO hold valid sacraments, as  do the RCs. I know many ROC, laity and clergy, that will cross themselves when they pass a Roman Catholic temple in veneration of their Eucharist.

The reception by vesting has become practice due to the Unia and shifting borders. One year a parish could find itself under the Unia, and the next under the Moscow Patriarchate, therefore the priest was simply vested and received back into the Orthodox Church. I'm not sure that many OOs clergy would come into Orthodoxy through the Russian Church since it simply is not in their area, however the Greek Patriarchates receive Roman Catholic and Oriental Clergy by chrismation, and ordination through the ranks.

As for those decelerations you speak about, they are decelerations of meetings and conferences, not Church councils. Such statements are null and void, and they do not hold the authority which a Church Council holds. The council must be Pan Orthodox, all the representatives of the Patriarchates and Autocephalus Churches must sign and agree to the subject matter at hand, for example, that the Oriental's are really Orthodox. However even if that was to happen, it would be contradicting the decision of the 4th Ecumenical Council Which most Orthodox Christians on this forum I am sorry to say, blatantly blaspheme and ignore and therefore, would also be null and void.

As for you what you said that the Russian Orthodox Church accepts Roman Catholic mysteries, in my experience with clergy both inside Russia and here abroad the consensus is that there is no grace outside of Orthodoxy. Metropolitan Hilarion of Volokolamsk it is true did say there was grace in the Roman Catholic Church, but this is his own private opinion, and it by no means represents the plethora of Russian clergy and laity who are very anti Roman Catholic. A simple glossing over of a Russian history text book will show you how just anti Latin we are. Also, please note that the Russian Orthodox Church has said that the dialogue with Rome is going no where, and from henceforth we should simply strive to cooperate on moral issues and to fight secularism, not to talk about doctrine, not to talk about union as they are impossible goals.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2011, 06:15:06 PM by Chtets Ioann » Logged
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« Reply #48 on: July 09, 2011, 08:26:08 PM »

Interesting so the Assyrian "Orthodox" are definitely out. But the Oriental "Orthodox" are in? Both have been condemned by an Ecumenical Council as being graceless heretics. I wouldn't attend a non Orthodox Church if I was in an area that had absolutely no Orthodox parish. Why would I? I might as well go have bacon and eggs, or go bowling, or do any of a number of things.

Bottom line is, if you're an Orthodox Christian and you find yourself in an area with no Orthodox parish you should do services on your own, Matins, Hours, Akathists, etc.

Yes, the Assyrians are out, and the OOs are in. Yes, both have been declared heretics in the past. However, there is a difference between them. The EO and OO have always maintained a relationship, and always accepted that there is something grace-filled among the other. You can read the history about EOs and OOs accepting each other's clergy by vesting and their laity by confession of faith. Never, to my knowledge, has either communion had the regular policy of chrismating/baptizing converts from each other.

And now, in the last few years, much dialogue has occurred between the OO and the EO, and we have signed declarations stating each other's Orthodoxy and lifted anathemas. We recognize a unity of faith and are working towards the very attainable goal of full, eucharistic reunification. There has been no dialogue with the Nestorians, who have walled themselves off from the Church and are dying off. They have been cut off from the church, the OO have not.


Since I saw that you are ROCOR, let me mention that the Russian Orthodox Church, has been a leader in dialogue both with the OOC and the RCC. To my knowledge, the Russian Orthodox Church maintains the belief that the OO hold valid sacraments, as  do the RCs. I know many ROC, laity and clergy, that will cross themselves when they pass a Roman Catholic temple in veneration of their Eucharist.

The reception by vesting has become practice due to the Unia and shifting borders. One year a parish could find itself under the Unia, and the next under the Moscow Patriarchate, therefore the priest was simply vested and received back into the Orthodox Church. I'm not sure that many OOs clergy would come into Orthodoxy through the Russian Church since it simply is not in their area, however the Greek Patriarchates receive Roman Catholic and Oriental Clergy by chrismation, and ordination through the ranks.

As for those decelerations you speak about, they are decelerations of meetings and conferences, not Church councils. Such statements are null and void, and they do not hold the authority which a Church Council holds. The council must be Pan Orthodox, all the representatives of the Patriarchates and Autocephalus Churches must sign and agree to the subject matter at hand, for example, that the Oriental's are really Orthodox. However even if that was to happen, it would be contradicting the decision of the 4th Ecumenical Council Which most Orthodox Christians on this forum I am sorry to say, blatantly blaspheme and ignore and therefore, would also be null and void.

As for you what you said that the Russian Orthodox Church accepts Roman Catholic mysteries, in my experience with clergy both inside Russia and here abroad the consensus is that there is no grace outside of Orthodoxy. Metropolitan Hilarion of Volokolamsk it is true did say there was grace in the Roman Catholic Church, but this is his own private opinion, and it by no means represents the plethora of Russian clergy and laity who are very anti Roman Catholic. A simple glossing over of a Russian history text book will show you how just anti Latin we are. Also, please note that the Russian Orthodox Church has said that the dialogue with Rome is going no where, and from henceforth we should simply strive to cooperate on moral issues and to fight secularism, not to talk about doctrine, not to talk about union as they are impossible goals.
I hate to break it to you, but, many Churches of the Moscow Patriarchate commune Orientals, I have even heard of a few ROCOR parishes communing us. Furthermore, the schism between Chalcedonians and non-Chalcedonians did not happen the day after Chalcedon, contrary to popular belief. But as I have said, enough! Arguments about Chalcedon are strictly forbidden on the public forum! If you drag other people into an argument, because they feel insulted by being called "graceless heretics", you will get us all in trouble. Please, let's just agree to disagree and stop discussing this. You are free to think of the [Oriental] Orthodox Church as you please, but that does not give you the right to insult us, especially on a public forum.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2011, 08:29:13 PM by Severian » Logged


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« Reply #49 on: July 09, 2011, 08:43:32 PM »

Interesting so the Assyrian "Orthodox" are definitely out. But the Oriental "Orthodox" are in? Both have been condemned by an Ecumenical Council as being graceless heretics. I wouldn't attend a non Orthodox Church if I was in an area that had absolutely no Orthodox parish. Why would I? I might as well go have bacon and eggs, or go bowling, or do any of a number of things.

Bottom line is, if you're an Orthodox Christian and you find yourself in an area with no Orthodox parish you should do services on your own, Matins, Hours, Akathists, etc.

Yes, the Assyrians are out, and the OOs are in. Yes, both have been declared heretics in the past. However, there is a difference between them. The EO and OO have always maintained a relationship, and always accepted that there is something grace-filled among the other. You can read the history about EOs and OOs accepting each other's clergy by vesting and their laity by confession of faith. Never, to my knowledge, has either communion had the regular policy of chrismating/baptizing converts from each other.

And now, in the last few years, much dialogue has occurred between the OO and the EO, and we have signed declarations stating each other's Orthodoxy and lifted anathemas. We recognize a unity of faith and are working towards the very attainable goal of full, eucharistic reunification. There has been no dialogue with the Nestorians, who have walled themselves off from the Church and are dying off. They have been cut off from the church, the OO have not.


Since I saw that you are ROCOR, let me mention that the Russian Orthodox Church, has been a leader in dialogue both with the OOC and the RCC. To my knowledge, the Russian Orthodox Church maintains the belief that the OO hold valid sacraments, as  do the RCs. I know many ROC, laity and clergy, that will cross themselves when they pass a Roman Catholic temple in veneration of their Eucharist.

The reception by vesting has become practice due to the Unia and shifting borders. One year a parish could find itself under the Unia, and the next under the Moscow Patriarchate, therefore the priest was simply vested and received back into the Orthodox Church. I'm not sure that many OOs clergy would come into Orthodoxy through the Russian Church since it simply is not in their area, however the Greek Patriarchates receive Roman Catholic and Oriental Clergy by chrismation, and ordination through the ranks.

As for those decelerations you speak about, they are decelerations of meetings and conferences, not Church councils. Such statements are null and void, and they do not hold the authority which a Church Council holds. The council must be Pan Orthodox, all the representatives of the Patriarchates and Autocephalus Churches must sign and agree to the subject matter at hand, for example, that the Oriental's are really Orthodox. However even if that was to happen, it would be contradicting the decision of the 4th Ecumenical Council Which most Orthodox Christians on this forum I am sorry to say, blatantly blaspheme and ignore and therefore, would also be null and void.

As for you what you said that the Russian Orthodox Church accepts Roman Catholic mysteries, in my experience with clergy both inside Russia and here abroad the consensus is that there is no grace outside of Orthodoxy. Metropolitan Hilarion of Volokolamsk it is true did say there was grace in the Roman Catholic Church, but this is his own private opinion, and it by no means represents the plethora of Russian clergy and laity who are very anti Roman Catholic. A simple glossing over of a Russian history text book will show you how just anti Latin we are. Also, please note that the Russian Orthodox Church has said that the dialogue with Rome is going no where, and from henceforth we should simply strive to cooperate on moral issues and to fight secularism, not to talk about doctrine, not to talk about union as they are impossible goals.
I hate to break it to you, but, many Churches of the Moscow Patriarchate commune Orientals, I have even heard of a few ROCOR parishes communing us. Furthermore, the schism between Chalcedonians and non-Chalcedonians did not happen the day after Chalcedon, contrary to popular belief. But as I have said, enough! Arguments about Chalcedon are strictly forbidden on the public forum! If you drag other people into an argument, because they feel insulted by being called "graceless heretics", you will get us all in trouble. Please, let's just agree to disagree and stop discussing this. You are free to think of the [Oriental] Orthodox Church as you please, but that does not give you the right to insult us, especially on a public forum.

Agreed, schisms take time to formulate, but to clarify... as being in the Russian Church I know we do the following: when Orientals come we tell them you may commune here after chrismation/giving a confession of faith, and you may only commune here, without going to an Oriental Church again. From this point on, we consider them Eastern Orthodox, and not Oriental.

And I agree, we should end this here. But this post is just to clarify that we don't give Communion to just anyone.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2011, 08:44:46 PM by Chtets Ioann » Logged
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« Reply #50 on: July 09, 2011, 08:46:09 PM »

And I agree, we should end this here. But this post is just to clarify that we don't give Communion to just anyone.
Thank you for being a reasonable person. Smiley
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« Reply #51 on: July 10, 2011, 06:41:59 AM »

Interesting so the Assyrian "Orthodox" are definitely out. But the Oriental "Orthodox" are in?

The East Syrians are not really ever referred to as Orthodox by people who really have any clue what they are talking about. The difference being that both the Byzantines and Orientals have now shown themselves to uphold doctrinal statements which reflect a fairly solid orthodox doctrinal perspective, whereas the East Syrians have not.

Not to say that that justifies partaking of Sacraments with schismatics, but at least it explains the difference between these two groups and the sentiments about them.
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« Reply #52 on: July 10, 2011, 06:44:12 AM »

@Chtets Ioann  I don't want a polemical debate please. You have been warned before for making polemical posts about non-Chalcedonians. I'm tempted to report you to the moderators for caling us "graceless heretics" on the public forum, but, I will not. Please behave yourself.

But why would you report me for stating on an Orthodox forum what the Orthodox Fathers attested to, at the 4th Ecumenical Council? The point is however, that Orthodox Christians may not attend or commune in non Orthodox Churches because of the belief that the Orthodox Church is the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. If you as an Armenian or Copt or whatever you are would like to come to an Orthodox Church, you are certainly welcome to... without partaking in any Mysteries nor receiving any blessings (antidoron, holy water, oil).

Very simple: this is not an "Orthodox" forum in the way you are suggesting. This is a joint "Eastern Orthodox" and "Oriental Orthodox" site. Therefore you can't expect the site to act on a policy of the Non-Chalcedonians not being Orthodox.
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« Reply #53 on: July 10, 2011, 06:46:29 AM »

It's really surprising how differently  and assyrians are treated on this forum by mostly convert American Orthodox, all the while the canonical tradition of our church seems to treat them on the same level. Now, that said, I like them both, maybe the Assyrians a bit more, just because my life's circumstances brought me into closer contact with them. I have never communed, in my whole life, elsewhere than in the OC, although  could have both with the RC and the Assyrians.
If I were in danger of death though, I might consider receiving the Communion from either the OO, RC or Assyrians.


Some of your posts are really awesome.  Wink
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« Reply #54 on: July 10, 2011, 06:51:18 AM »

Furthermore, the schism between Chalcedonians and non-Chalcedonians did not happen the day after Chalcedon, contrary to popular belief.

Depends on how you look at it. In so far as the "Fathers" of Chalcedon were representative of the teaching of the Chalcedonians and Saint Dioscorus was representative of the teaching of the OO, then the schism started in the midst of Chalcedon itself. On the other end of the spectrum, in so far as schism constitutes general visible breaking of communion, it didn't really finalize until about 100 years later.
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« Reply #55 on: July 17, 2011, 02:24:06 AM »

Quote
I also wouldn't receive from an EO or OO priest, but for a different reason: even if I found one who would allow me to (which is very likely)
I don't know too many EO or OO Priests who could commune you. I know sometimes that the EO Antiochian Church communes Catholics, other EO do not. As for the OO Churches, here's there status about communing non-OO (well, from what I've heard):

1. Coptic Orthodox: Catholics*- almost/if not never, Byzantine Orthodox- sometimes, but it’s not common practice
2. Ethiopian Orthodox: Catholics- (from what I can tell) almost/if not never, Byzantine Orthodox- probably sometimes
3. Eritrean Orthodox: Same as Ethiopian Orthodox (most likely)
4. Armenian Apostolic Orthodox: Catholics- up to the discretion of the clergy, Byzantine Orthodox- usually, yes
5. Malankara Orthodox Syrian/ “Indian Orthodox”: Catholics- sometimes, but it is by no means a rule, Byzantine Orthodox- for the most part, yes
6. Syriac/Syrian Orthodox Church: (Unfortunately) regularly communes Catholics, she also communes Byzantine Orthodox (which I really don't mind)

*It is extremely rare, however, Egypt’s Coptic Orthodox Church sometimes communes Catholics, especially in more run-down areas of Egypt where persecution from Muslims is common and there is no Catholic Church around for Catholics to worship and take communion in

As I said, if there were no OO Church I would try to commune in an EO Church. An OO friend of mine grew up in Greece and because there were no OO Churches back then, he communed in the Greek Orthodox Church. Catholics, Assyrians, etc no I would not commune from them, they are just too different from Orthodoxy.
As my friends Doured and Tony explain it, at least in Iraq, you can't switch. If you were born in a Syriac Orthodox parish, you're Orthodox. If you were born in a Syriac Catholic parish (they say Syriac Catholic - weird. I always see Syrian), you're Catholic.

It has to do with making sure good records are kept of everyone's sacraments.

So Doured and Tony are cousins, both their mothers are Orthodox, but their father is Catholic so they are Catholic. I think Doured's wife is Orthodox. They come to the Byzantine Catholic parish here in town (which is partnered with the local Maronite mission). Lots of other Syriac Catholics come here. I don't know if any Syriac Orthodox do for sure.

Tony and Doured seem to think it's the same religion, except for the name, so far as I can tell.
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« Reply #56 on: July 17, 2011, 02:28:36 AM »

Quote
I also wouldn't receive from an EO or OO priest, but for a different reason: even if I found one who would allow me to (which is very likely)
I don't know too many EO or OO Priests who could commune you. I know sometimes that the EO Antiochian Church communes Catholics, other EO do not. As for the OO Churches, here's there status about communing non-OO (well, from what I've heard):

1. Coptic Orthodox: Catholics*- almost/if not never, Byzantine Orthodox- sometimes, but it’s not common practice
2. Ethiopian Orthodox: Catholics- (from what I can tell) almost/if not never, Byzantine Orthodox- probably sometimes
3. Eritrean Orthodox: Same as Ethiopian Orthodox (most likely)
4. Armenian Apostolic Orthodox: Catholics- up to the discretion of the clergy, Byzantine Orthodox- usually, yes
5. Malankara Orthodox Syrian/ “Indian Orthodox”: Catholics- sometimes, but it is by no means a rule, Byzantine Orthodox- for the most part, yes
6. Syriac/Syrian Orthodox Church: (Unfortunately) regularly communes Catholics, she also communes Byzantine Orthodox (which I really don't mind)

*It is extremely rare, however, Egypt’s Coptic Orthodox Church sometimes communes Catholics, especially in more run-down areas of Egypt where persecution from Muslims is common and there is no Catholic Church around for Catholics to worship and take communion in

As I said, if there were no OO Church I would try to commune in an EO Church. An OO friend of mine grew up in Greece and because there were no OO Churches back then, he communed in the Greek Orthodox Church. Catholics, Assyrians, etc no I would not commune from them, they are just too different from Orthodoxy.
As my friends Doured and Tony explain it, at least in Iraq, you can't switch. If you were born in a Syriac Orthodox parish, you're Orthodox. If you were born in a Syriac Catholic parish (they say Syriac Catholic - weird. I always see Syrian), you're Catholic.

It has to do with making sure good records are kept of everyone's sacraments.

So Doured and Tony are cousins, both their mothers are Orthodox, but their father is Catholic so they are Catholic. I think Doured's wife is Orthodox. They come to the Byzantine Catholic parish here in town (which is partnered with the local Maronite mission). Lots of other Syriac Catholics come here. I don't know if any Syriac Orthodox do for sure.

Tony and Doured seem to think it's the same religion, except for the name, so far as I can tell.
Interesting... But, you would be correct in saying that the Syriac Orthodox are more lax when it comes to communing and receiving communion from non-Orthodox. So maybe you do have some Syriac Orthodox in the Byzantine Catholic parish you were referring to.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2011, 02:32:26 AM by Severian » Logged


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« Reply #57 on: July 17, 2011, 03:07:33 AM »

After I become Orthodox, I would never receive communion outside of the Orthodox Church (and I have no reason to before I become Orthodox).
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« Reply #58 on: July 17, 2011, 03:36:33 AM »

I am answering this assuming it is in a hypothetical scenario where I am unable to get to any Catholic Church (Roman or any of the 22 Eastern Churches) and it is either on a Saturday evening or sunday morning and I need to get to a church in order to not break the third commandment.

I would commune in the OOC provided that I received permission from the priest of the parish to do so. Same goes for the EOC and ACOE. I would not commune with Anglicans because my Church does not recognize the validity of their Sacraments.
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« Reply #59 on: July 17, 2011, 03:54:41 AM »

I am answering this assuming it is in a hypothetical scenario where I am unable to get to any Catholic Church (Roman or any of the 22 Eastern Churches) and it is either on a Saturday evening or sunday morning and I need to get to a church in order to not break the third commandment.

I would commune in the OOC provided that I received permission from the priest of the parish to do so. Same goes for the EOC and ACOE. I would not commune with Anglicans because my Church does not recognize the validity of their Sacraments.
You would commune in the ACOE? I think there's a lot of evidence to suggest that they still adhere to a moderate form of the Nestorian heresy. Of course I respect your decision.

God bless,
Severian
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« Reply #60 on: July 17, 2011, 04:07:35 AM »

I am answering this assuming it is in a hypothetical scenario where I am unable to get to any Catholic Church (Roman or any of the 22 Eastern Churches) and it is either on a Saturday evening or sunday morning and I need to get to a church in order to not break the third commandment.

I would commune in the OOC provided that I received permission from the priest of the parish to do so. Same goes for the EOC and ACOE. I would not commune with Anglicans because my Church does not recognize the validity of their Sacraments.
You would commune in the ACOE? I think there's a lot of evidence to suggest that they still adhere to a moderate form of the Nestorian heresy. Of course I respect your decision.

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Well, none of the above options would be my first choice since I would obviously prefer to commune in my own Church if at all possible, yet my Church recognizes the Grace which exists in the ACOE as well as the OOC and EOC. Because of this I must recognize that it is truly Christ present on their altars as well.
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« Reply #61 on: July 17, 2011, 04:08:57 AM »

I am answering this assuming it is in a hypothetical scenario where I am unable to get to any Catholic Church (Roman or any of the 22 Eastern Churches) and it is either on a Saturday evening or sunday morning and I need to get to a church in order to not break the third commandment.

I would commune in the OOC provided that I received permission from the priest of the parish to do so. Same goes for the EOC and ACOE. I would not commune with Anglicans because my Church does not recognize the validity of their Sacraments.
You would commune in the ACOE? I think there's a lot of evidence to suggest that they still adhere to a moderate form of the Nestorian heresy. Of course I respect your decision.

God bless,
Severian
Well, none of the above options would be my first choice since I would obviously prefer to commune in my own Church if at all possible, yet my Church recognizes the Grace which exists in the ACOE as well as the OOC and EOC. Because of this I must recognize that it is truly Christ present on their altars as well.
I see... Makes sense, after all, it is only natural that you would want to obey your Church and recognize their sacraments.
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« Reply #62 on: July 23, 2011, 01:11:43 PM »

As some others have said, if our bishops haven't sorted it out, it's not my place to pretend that I can figure that out on my own.

I absolutely LOVE the OO (I really pray for speedy reconciliation), but it's not my place to pick and choose which canons and disciplines to follow and not follow. So, unless we're in formal communion, I will not partake of any sacrament outside of the EO. I would do prayers on my own in private if I were nowhere near an EO church.
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« Reply #63 on: July 23, 2011, 01:31:26 PM »

And what if your bishop and priest said that you could commune in an OO congregation?
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« Reply #64 on: July 23, 2011, 01:33:16 PM »

And what if your bishop and priest said that you could commune in an OO congregation?

With their permission, I would if necessary. Smiley
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« Reply #65 on: July 23, 2011, 01:48:13 PM »

And what if your bishop and priest said that you could commune in an OO congregation?

I don't know.
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« Reply #66 on: July 23, 2011, 02:02:59 PM »

Antidoron is available to all who wish to partake at my church.

Mine too
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« Reply #67 on: July 23, 2011, 09:11:56 PM »

As some others have said, if our bishops haven't sorted it out, it's not my place to pretend that I can figure that out on my own.

I absolutely LOVE the OO (I really pray for speedy reconciliation), but it's not my place to pick and choose which canons and disciplines to follow and not follow. So, unless we're in formal communion, I will not partake of any sacrament outside of the EO. I would do prayers on my own in private if I were nowhere near an EO church.

If the only church near you was an OO church, wouldn't you want to attend without receiving communion?
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« Reply #68 on: July 24, 2011, 10:59:51 AM »

As some others have said, if our bishops haven't sorted it out, it's not my place to pretend that I can figure that out on my own.

I absolutely LOVE the OO (I really pray for speedy reconciliation), but it's not my place to pick and choose which canons and disciplines to follow and not follow. So, unless we're in formal communion, I will not partake of any sacrament outside of the EO. I would do prayers on my own in private if I were nowhere near an EO church.

If the only church near you was an OO church, wouldn't you want to attend without receiving communion?

NO! MUST NOT PRAY WITH HERETICS!  laugh Tongue
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« Reply #69 on: July 24, 2011, 11:38:45 PM »

As some others have said, if our bishops haven't sorted it out, it's not my place to pretend that I can figure that out on my own.

I absolutely LOVE the OO (I really pray for speedy reconciliation), but it's not my place to pick and choose which canons and disciplines to follow and not follow. So, unless we're in formal communion, I will not partake of any sacrament outside of the EO. I would do prayers on my own in private if I were nowhere near an EO church.

If the only church near you was an OO church, wouldn't you want to attend without receiving communion?

NO! MUST NOT PRAY WITH HERETICS!  laugh Tongue

+1
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« Reply #70 on: August 01, 2011, 11:09:16 PM »

Nevermind.
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« Reply #71 on: August 02, 2011, 01:51:50 AM »

As some others have said, if our bishops haven't sorted it out, it's not my place to pretend that I can figure that out on my own.

I absolutely LOVE the OO (I really pray for speedy reconciliation), but it's not my place to pick and choose which canons and disciplines to follow and not follow. So, unless we're in formal communion, I will not partake of any sacrament outside of the EO. I would do prayers on my own in private if I were nowhere near an EO church.

If the only church near you was an OO church, wouldn't you want to attend without receiving communion?

NO! MUST NOT PRAY WITH HERETICS!  laugh Tongue
What kind of a test would you give to everyone at a Church before you would pray in that Church? What if someone in the Church was pro-choice, would you then refuse to attend the Divine Liturgy, since you would be praying with a heretic?
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« Reply #72 on: August 02, 2011, 04:13:08 AM »

What kind of a test would you give to everyone at a Church before you would pray in that Church? What if someone in the Church was pro-choice, would you then refuse to attend the Divine Liturgy, since you would be praying with a heretic?

How many, in your  opinion, there are Orthodox Churches that support abortion?

You show the great lack of understanding about the Orthodox Church, the very Protestant-like one.
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« Reply #73 on: August 02, 2011, 05:19:19 AM »

What kind of a test would you give to everyone at a Church before you would pray in that Church? What if someone in the Church was pro-choice, would you then refuse to attend the Divine Liturgy, since you would be praying with a heretic?

How many, in your  opinion, there are Orthodox Churches that support abortion?

You show the great lack of understanding about the Orthodox Church, the very Protestant-like one.
There is no Orthodox Church that supports abortion. However, there are people in the Orthodox Church who are pro-choice, are there not? For example, there is a TV commentator who is a son of an Orthodox priest, yet he has expressed pro-choice views.  The question is whether or not you can pray with a heretic. It is asserted above: " MUST NOT PRAY WITH HERETICS!" I don't see how you would be able to follow this rule. For example, during the Communist era in Eastern Europe there were Communists who had their daughters married in the Orthodox Church. Now if you were going to impose the rule of  MUST NOT PRAY WITH HERETICS! then that would imply that you would not be able to attend Divine Liturgy when a member of the Communist Party was present. And you could not attend the DL if a pro-choice person were present, because you would be praying with a heretic, would you not?
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« Reply #74 on: August 02, 2011, 05:49:54 AM »

And you could not attend the DL if a pro-choice person were present, because you would be praying with a heretic, would you not?

No.

To become a heretic one should be declared a heretic by the Church. Our personal opinion does not matter.
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« Reply #75 on: August 02, 2011, 07:20:16 AM »

According to the Fathers, heresy is separation from God.  As an Orthodox Christian, even if I were on my death bed and I could not find an Orthodox priest to hear my confession and administer the mysteries to me, there is no way that I could entertain the thought of receiving "sacraments" from those who our saints and Holy Fathers say are heretics.  It would be better to preserve the true faith and not receive the mysteries on my death bed, than to use my last moments to apostatize by receiving the "sacraments" from heretics.  If I had no other recourse, I would write out my final confession and ask a loved one to mail it to my spiritual father. 
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« Reply #76 on: August 02, 2011, 08:47:41 AM »

stanley123,

There is a difference between heresy and other problems in the Church (communism, pro-choice, etc.). It is heresy that is feared. For example, we find in the Sayings of the Desert Fathers:

Quote
It was said concerning Abba Agathon that some monks came to find him having heard tell of his great discernment. Wanting to see if he would lose his temper they said to him 'Aren't you that Agathon who is said to be a fornicator and a proud man?' 'Yes, it is very true,' he answered. They resumed, 'Aren't you that Agothon who is always talking nonsense?' 'I am." Again they said 'Aren't you Agothon the heretic?' But at that he replied 'I am not a heretic.' So they asked him, 'Tell us why you accepted everything we cast you, but repudiated this last insult.' He replied 'The first accusations I take to myself for that is good for my soul. But heresy is separation from God. Now I have no wish to be separated from God.' At this saying they were astonished at his discernment and returned, edified.

--Abba Agathon

Also, I think most Orthodox, even those in traditionalist churches, have a more nuanced position than you are giving them credit for. No on ever said "ZOMG Edwardo over there in row #3 might be a heretic! We better run away!" Now, if a lot of the parish were openly saying that Jesus was a created deity, and the priest was wishy washy on the point, that'd be another matter.
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« Reply #77 on: August 02, 2011, 09:22:13 AM »

stanley123,

There is a difference between heresy and other problems in the Church (communism, pro-choice, etc.). It is heresy that is feared. For example, we find in the Sayings of the Desert Fathers:

Quote
It was said concerning Abba Agathon that some monks came to find him having heard tell of his great discernment. Wanting to see if he would lose his temper they said to him 'Aren't you that Agathon who is said to be a fornicator and a proud man?' 'Yes, it is very true,' he answered. They resumed, 'Aren't you that Agothon who is always talking nonsense?' 'I am." Again they said 'Aren't you Agothon the heretic?' But at that he replied 'I am not a heretic.' So they asked him, 'Tell us why you accepted everything we cast you, but repudiated this last insult.' He replied 'The first accusations I take to myself for that is good for my soul. But heresy is separation from God. Now I have no wish to be separated from God.' At this saying they were astonished at his discernment and returned, edified.

--Abba Agathon

Also, I think most Orthodox, even those in traditionalist churches, have a more nuanced position than you are giving them credit for. No on ever said "ZOMG Edwardo over there in row #3 might be a heretic! We better run away!" Now, if a lot of the parish were openly saying that Jesus was a created deity, and the priest was wishy washy on the point, that'd be another matter.

It's not a matter of giving credit, it's a matter of TristanCross's statement:

NO! MUST NOT PRAY WITH HERETICS!  laugh Tongue
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« Reply #78 on: August 02, 2011, 09:28:49 AM »

And the cheesy emoticon and tongue emoticon are just along for the ride?  Smiley  Btw, I'm not saying that some people don't take the idea too far, I just don't think people take it as far as is being commented on here (I'm trying not to use the term strawman, because I can understand the frustration, and that the lines are blurred, but still... come on, even traditionalists wouldn't tell you, for example, to not go to a family funeral because you would have to pray with heretics... there is a certain application and meaning to the idea that is being blown well out of proportion here... wait, why am I still in parenthesis?  well anyway...)
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« Reply #79 on: August 02, 2011, 09:53:41 AM »


It's not a matter of giving credit, it's a matter of TristanCross's statement:

NO! MUST NOT PRAY WITH HERETICS!  laugh Tongue

Tristan is referring here to the 45th Canon of the Holy Apostles which forbids joining in prayer with heretics.  This and other canons forbid clergy and laity to attend services conducted by clergy that have been condemned for teaching heresy, or who have departed into schism, or who have been deposed.  The canon does not imply that we should interview all who are present in the church regarding their dogmatic beliefs, but pertains rather to the clergy conducting the service and their standing within the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.
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« Reply #80 on: August 02, 2011, 01:00:50 PM »

What kind of a test would you give to everyone at a Church before you would pray in that Church? What if someone in the Church was pro-choice, would you then refuse to attend the Divine Liturgy, since you would be praying with a heretic?

How many, in your  opinion, there are Orthodox Churches that support abortion?

You show the great lack of understanding about the Orthodox Church, the very Protestant-like one.
There is no Orthodox Church that supports abortion. However, there are people in the Orthodox Church who are pro-choice, are there not? For example, there is a TV commentator who is a son of an Orthodox priest, yet he has expressed pro-choice views.  The question is whether or not you can pray with a heretic. It is asserted above: " MUST NOT PRAY WITH HERETICS!" I don't see how you would be able to follow this rule. For example, during the Communist era in Eastern Europe there were Communists who had their daughters married in the Orthodox Church. Now if you were going to impose the rule of  MUST NOT PRAY WITH HERETICS! then that would imply that you would not be able to attend Divine Liturgy when a member of the Communist Party was present. And you could not attend the DL if a pro-choice person were present, because you would be praying with a heretic, would you not?
No, the heretic would be praying with us. There's no canon against that.
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« Reply #81 on: August 03, 2011, 03:44:05 AM »

And you could not attend the DL if a pro-choice person were present, because you would be praying with a heretic, would you not?

No.

To become a heretic one should be declared a heretic by the Church. Our personal opinion does not matter.
So if an Orthodox Christian were to believe that abortion was OK under certain (weak)  conditions, say, and if he believed that it was OK to receive Holy Communion in an Anglican Church at a Mass said by a woman priest, and there was no declaration of the Church against him, then he would not be a heretic?
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« Reply #82 on: August 03, 2011, 03:48:55 AM »

If he believed and didn't do anything? Everybady has doubts sometimes.
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« Reply #83 on: August 03, 2011, 03:53:00 AM »

If he believed and didn't do anything? Everybady has doubts sometimes.
So he would not be a heretic if he persisted in the belief that abortion was OK and that women priests and women bishops are OK, and that it is OK to receive Holy Communion in an Anglican Church, as long as the Orthodox Church did not officially warn him?
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« Reply #84 on: August 03, 2011, 03:53:59 AM »

How would you know he is a heretic?
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« Reply #85 on: August 03, 2011, 10:58:18 AM »

No, the heretic would be praying with us. There's no canon against that.

That is helpful. Perhaps it's a matter of an idiom that doesn't carry over very well into English -- praying with a heretic vs. allowing a heretic to pray with you.
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« Reply #86 on: August 03, 2011, 11:29:40 AM »

even if a bishop would grant "economy," I don't believe he really has such authority.

*thumbs up*

Thumbs up for me too.
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« Reply #87 on: August 03, 2011, 12:04:10 PM »

How would you know he is a heretic?
I am not sure. Anyway, I saw a posted sign at an Orthodox Church indicating that they had adult catechism classes on Thursday nights at 7:30. I indicated to the Orthodox priest there that I was interested in attending and learning more about the Orthodox Church. He said that I was a heretic and that he did not allow heretics to attend his classes, but only those who had been baptised and chrismated in the Orthodox church. So I guess he had some criteria to determine who was and who was not a heretic.
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« Reply #88 on: August 03, 2011, 12:38:33 PM »

How would you know he is a heretic?
I am not sure. Anyway, I saw a posted sign at an Orthodox Church indicating that they had adult catechism classes on Thursday nights at 7:30. I indicated to the Orthodox priest there that I was interested in attending and learning more about the Orthodox Church. He said that I was a heretic and that he did not allow heretics to attend his classes, but only those who had been baptised and chrismated in the Orthodox church. So I guess he had some criteria to determine who was and who was not a heretic.

Wow...that souns a bit absurd...

Have you ever been to liturgy there before? He might've thought you were a Jesuit.  police
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« Reply #89 on: August 03, 2011, 01:53:15 PM »

How would you know he is a heretic?
I am not sure. Anyway, I saw a posted sign at an Orthodox Church indicating that they had adult catechism classes on Thursday nights at 7:30. I indicated to the Orthodox priest there that I was interested in attending and learning more about the Orthodox Church. He said that I was a heretic and that he did not allow heretics to attend his classes, but only those who had been baptised and chrismated in the Orthodox church. So I guess he had some criteria to determine who was and who was not a heretic.

 Angry

Please tell me that this priest was from a group that has a name like: True-Blue Super-Orthodox Dogmatically and Canonically Perfecto Supremo Uber-Right Believing Greek Hellenic Ancient Greek Orthodox Catholic Greek Orthopraxical Church...?
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