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Author Topic: Communion from a Priest Outside Your Own Church  (Read 6772 times) Average Rating: 0
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Severian
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« on: July 07, 2011, 11:45:19 PM »

I was just wondering if you would receive communion from Priests of the following Churches if you couldn't commune from a Priest of your own tradition:

1. Assyrian Church of the East
2. Eastern Orthodox Church
3. Oriental Orthodox Church
4. Roman Catholic Church
5. Anglican

For me, if I couldn't commune in an OO Church...

1. Assyrian Church: No, I'm sorry I just cannot receive the sacraments from a Church which venerates Nestorius. (No offense intended)

2. Eastern Orthodox: Yes, we share the same faith even if we aren't in canonical communion.

3. Roman Catholic: Meh... I'd be quite hesitant, quite a bit separates Orthodoxy from Catholicism. If my Bishop granted me dispensation, maybe.

4. Anglican (even if they believe in the real presence): No. (No offense intended)

What about you? Would you commune in the aforementioned Churches if you couldn't commune in your own Church?
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« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2011, 12:19:41 AM »

If I couldn't commune with my church, I would simply find another Eastern Orthodox church in the area.  There are about 4 total in my area, so that shouldn't be a problem.  As to my understanding, we are not allowed to commune with any of those that you mentioned -- not even the Oriental Orthodox.  However, I have heard of my own Bishop.. His Eminence Metropolitan Nicholas, allowing OO's to commune in my Greek Orthodox church -- when my priest asked about it; since there were Ethiopians that came to the liturgy regularly enough.
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« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2011, 12:34:31 AM »

If I couldn't commune with my church, I would simply find another Eastern Orthodox church in the area.  There are about 4 total in my area, so that shouldn't be a problem.  As to my understanding, we are not allowed to commune with any of those that you mentioned -- not even the Oriental Orthodox.  However, I have heard of my own Bishop.. His Eminence Metropolitan Nicholas, allowing OO's to commune in my Greek Orthodox church -- when my priest asked about it; since there were Ethiopians that came to the liturgy regularly enough.
Thanks for responding, but, what I mean to say is that if you couldn't attend any EO Church would you try to get dispensation and commune in these other Churches? If I were in an area with no OO Churches I would commune in other Churches in accordance with what I wrote above. Meaning I would try to get permission to commune in an EO Church, but, I would never commune in an Assyrian-Nestorian Church.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2011, 12:39:24 AM by Severian » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2011, 12:47:02 AM »

...if you couldn't attend any EO Church would you try to get dispensation and commune in these other Churches?

No. I would only partake in sacraments from those who are in communion with my jurisdiction. On the other hand, if I couldn't attend a church that I could commune in, I think I may be persuaded to attend another church.
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« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2011, 12:56:27 AM »

...if you couldn't attend any EO Church would you try to get dispensation and commune in these other Churches?

No. I would only partake in sacraments from those who are in communion with my jurisdiction. On the other hand, if I couldn't attend a church that I could commune in, I think I may be persuaded to attend another church.
So let's say this, if you were to move to, say, Egypt, where there are practically no EO Churches, would you ask your bishop permission to commune in an OO Church?
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« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2011, 01:13:15 AM »

I would attend but I would not commune, even if the local bishop said it was okay. If they're not in the diptychs I'm not taking their sacrament. Nothing personal, it just doesn't feel right.
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« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2011, 01:16:11 AM »

I'd probably commune with the Oriental Orthodox if I had the permission of my bishop, other than that I wouldn't even try to get the bishops permission. As far as I'm concerned none of the others share the same faith we do.
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« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2011, 01:20:43 AM »

I'd probably commune with the Oriental Orthodox if I had the permission of my bishop, other than that I wouldn't even try to get the bishops permission. As far as I'm concerned none of the others share the same faith we do.
I think I have to agree regarding the EO. Catholics, Assyrians (Nestorians), Anglicans et al have a long way to return to the Orthodox faith, EOs and OOs seem to be patching things up. Though, for all practical purposes I don't see unity happening in my lifetime.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2011, 01:24:59 AM by Severian » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2011, 01:33:58 AM »

What about you? Would you commune in the aforementioned Churches if you couldn't commune in your own Church?

The Oriental Orthodox Church is the only Church I would consider Communing in at this point (I'm not a member though). Any other church (EO, RC, East Syrian, Anglican, or any other) I'm skeptical of dogmatically and therefore would not seek membership in them even if I had no access to an OO church. More likely if I became more steadfast in pursuing membership in the OOC I would try my best to get a mission going in my area.
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« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2011, 01:35:46 AM »

No.  The Eastern Orthodox Christian Church prohibits my receipt of communion outside of the Faith.  It is not for me to disagree with the Church in that regard.  Orthodoxy considers Holy Communion the highest manifestation of the the Faith.  God will watch over me if I am unable to commune due to residency.  If I were to be so far away from an Eastern Orthodox Church, that it would be essentially impossible to attend an Orthodox Church, I would probably search for a Christian Church that to some extent would nourish my spirituality, but never would I compromise my faith by violating one of its primary rules, even if a bishop would grant "economy," I don't believe he really has such authority.  (I would not attend a non-Trinitarian church for any reason.)
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« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2011, 01:38:33 AM »

I would feel comfortable with certain OO churches, especially the Coptic and Syriac churches, but I don't have any connection to Ethiopian spirituality at this point and it would just be too much of a barrier for me. Armenians are way more of an issue for me just because of how lackadaisical they seem to be in giving communion to the heterodox, as I've heard from a few on this forum that they will commune Anglicans.

Roman Catholic is tricky, but honestly I feel at home with traditional Roman Catholic liturgy as well as with the Byzantine rites of Eastern Catholicism, especially the Melkites.

Assyrian Church of the East is a definite no, but I would attend services more out of liturgical curiosity and for historical academic reasons, but I wouldn't pray with them in the services.

Anglican is a big no.

But all that I'm really indicating is my own personal level of comfort with their spirituality and a sense of connection and brotherhood I feel with them. I don't see this hypothetical really playing out, and honestly I think that I would simply abstain from communion and make occasional long trips to an EO church for communion. I might pray at some of their churches with the bishop's blessing, but even then I might just pray at home.
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« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2011, 01:39:55 AM »

...if you couldn't attend any EO Church would you try to get dispensation and commune in these other Churches?

No. I would only partake in sacraments from those who are in communion with my jurisdiction. On the other hand, if I couldn't attend a church that I could commune in, I think I may be persuaded to attend another church.
So let's say this, if you were to move to, say, Egypt, where there are practically no EO Churches, would you ask your bishop permission to commune in an OO Church?

Definitely not. Then again, I would be extremely unlikely to move to an area without access to a priest of my communion. I just wouldn't do it.
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« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2011, 02:02:03 AM »

even if a bishop would grant "economy," I don't believe he really has such authority.

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Severian
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« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2011, 02:16:37 AM »

What about you? Would you commune in the aforementioned Churches if you couldn't commune in your own Church?

The Oriental Orthodox Church is the only Church I would consider Communing in at this point (I'm not a member though). Any other church (EO, RC, East Syrian, Anglican, or any other) I'm skeptical of dogmatically and therefore would not seek membership in them even if I had no access to an OO church. More likely if I became more steadfast in pursuing membership in the OOC I would try my best to get a mission going in my area.
Deusveritasest, a while ago I noticed how you changed your faith status from "Oriental Orthodoxy (inquirer)" to "not sure". If you don't mind me asking, is there a particular reason you changed your status?
« Last Edit: July 08, 2011, 02:17:10 AM by Severian » Logged

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« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2011, 02:27:35 AM »

What about you? Would you commune in the aforementioned Churches if you couldn't commune in your own Church?

The Oriental Orthodox Church is the only Church I would consider Communing in at this point (I'm not a member though). Any other church (EO, RC, East Syrian, Anglican, or any other) I'm skeptical of dogmatically and therefore would not seek membership in them even if I had no access to an OO church. More likely if I became more steadfast in pursuing membership in the OOC I would try my best to get a mission going in my area.
Deusveritasest, a while ago I noticed how you changed your faith status from "Oriental Orthodoxy (inquirer)" to "not sure". If you don't mind me asking, is there a particular reason you changed your status?

Wow, Severian, you've been lurking a while, haha.

In order to contribute to the topic: I believe the example of hermits such as St Mary of Egypt demonstrates that it is more important to receive the holy mysteries infrequently in the correct spirit than to receive them often (assuming they are out of ordinary reach).
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Severian
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« Reply #15 on: July 08, 2011, 02:31:49 AM »

What about you? Would you commune in the aforementioned Churches if you couldn't commune in your own Church?

The Oriental Orthodox Church is the only Church I would consider Communing in at this point (I'm not a member though). Any other church (EO, RC, East Syrian, Anglican, or any other) I'm skeptical of dogmatically and therefore would not seek membership in them even if I had no access to an OO church. More likely if I became more steadfast in pursuing membership in the OOC I would try my best to get a mission going in my area.
Deusveritasest, a while ago I noticed how you changed your faith status from "Oriental Orthodoxy (inquirer)" to "not sure". If you don't mind me asking, is there a particular reason you changed your status?

Wow, Severian, you've been lurking a while, haha.

In order to contribute to the topic: I believe the example of hermits such as St Mary of Egypt demonstrates that it is more important to receive the holy mysteries infrequently in the correct spirit than to receive them often (assuming they are out of ordinary reach).
Great point actually.
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« Reply #16 on: July 08, 2011, 04:35:15 AM »

There are plenty of EO and OO laity who commune in vice-versa Churches because of a lack of presence of their own communities, or for other reasons.

I see no problem with this at all.

I do not believe that the EO are dogmatically non-Orthodox, and unless a particular EO shows signs of Nestorianism I have found all of the EO who I regularly see at my own Church to be as diverse in knowledge and spiritual development as those who are formally OO.

The reception of an EO into formal membership of the Coptic Church does not properly require the administration of any sacrament at all. All that is required is a confession of Faith. Therefore the OO have never considered the EO not to be the Church, even if defective in some aspects. The relationship has been much more like a 'walling off' from error, than an absolute separation from those who are not the Church in any sense.

Therefore, although it is not possible for clergy to con-celebrate in usual circumstances, it is entirely reasonable for laity, generally with permission, to commune in each other's Churches, and I know that it happens a lot and I am glad. There are also many immigrants who are entirely isolated from their own Churches, and for various reasons have not found them spiritually fruitful. They are notionally from X Orthodox or Y Orthodox Church, but if they find meaning and value such that their notional Orthodox Faith becomes a real Orthodox Faith when they worship with OO then I think that is a good thing, and a fulfillment of their Orthodoxy, not a negation of it.
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« Reply #17 on: July 08, 2011, 05:09:32 AM »

If my bishop granted a dispensation I might commune in an OO church. Others churches I wouldn't even attend for other reasons than liturgical curiosity.
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« Reply #18 on: July 08, 2011, 07:12:55 AM »

What about you? Would you commune in the aforementioned Churches if you couldn't commune in your own Church?

The Oriental Orthodox Church is the only Church I would consider Communing in at this point (I'm not a member though). Any other church (EO, RC, East Syrian, Anglican, or any other) I'm skeptical of dogmatically and therefore would not seek membership in them even if I had no access to an OO church. More likely if I became more steadfast in pursuing membership in the OOC I would try my best to get a mission going in my area.
Deusveritasest, a while ago I noticed how you changed your faith status from "Oriental Orthodoxy (inquirer)" to "not sure". If you don't mind me asking, is there a particular reason you changed your status?

Hmmmm. I've had enough people ask about that now that perhaps I should start a thread in the Converts forum explaining.
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« Reply #19 on: July 08, 2011, 08:53:34 AM »

I'm not communing in any Church at the moment, but if I lived in an area with any Oriental Churches around I'd alternate between attendance there and at an Eastern parish until I decided which communion to join. But there's only an Eastern parish in my area so I simply attend that.

I stopped receiving communion in the Roman Catholic Church a while ago and I'd never be willing to do it again. I probably would never do so with Anglicans or Nestorians either.
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« Reply #20 on: July 08, 2011, 09:44:39 AM »

Oriental Orthodox with caution if they would have me.
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« Reply #21 on: July 08, 2011, 01:02:19 PM »

I was just wondering if you would receive communion from Priests of the following Churches if you couldn't commune from a Priest of your own tradition:

1. Assyrian Church of the East
2. Eastern Orthodox Church
3. Oriental Orthodox Church
4. Roman Catholic Church
5. Anglican

I guess this is directed mainly toward Orthodox (Oriental and Eastern), but here are 3 comments from a Catholic:

(i) I think you should add “6. PNCC (Polish National Catholic Church)” to the list.

(ii) I like the way you asked the question: “I was just wondering if you would receive communion from Priests of the following Churches if you couldn't commune from a Priest of your own tradition.” (emphasis added). For Catholics, Canon 844 (c.671 in the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches) tells us “Whenever necessity requires or genuine spiritual advantage suggests, and provided that the danger of error or indifferentism is avoided, it is lawful for the faithful for whom it is physically or morally impossible to approach a Catholic minister, to receive the sacraments of penance, Eucharist, and anointing of the sick from non-Catholic ministers in whose churches these sacraments are valid.”

(iii) To your question, I'd say that I wouldn't receive from an Anglican minister. I also wouldn't receive from an EO or OO priest, but for a different reason: even if I found one who would allow me to (which is very likely) I wouldn't want to be involved in him going against his church.
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« Reply #22 on: July 08, 2011, 01:08:46 PM »

Quote
I also wouldn't receive from an EO or OO priest, but for a different reason: even if I found one who would allow me to (which is very likely)
I don't know too many EO or OO Priests who could commune you. I know sometimes that the EO Antiochian Church communes Catholics, other EO do not. As for the OO Churches, here's there status about communing non-OO (well, from what I've heard):

1. Coptic Orthodox: Catholics*- almost/if not never, Byzantine Orthodox- sometimes, but it’s not common practice
2. Ethiopian Orthodox: Catholics- (from what I can tell) almost/if not never, Byzantine Orthodox- probably sometimes
3. Eritrean Orthodox: Same as Ethiopian Orthodox (most likely)
4. Armenian Apostolic Orthodox: Catholics- up to the discretion of the clergy, Byzantine Orthodox- usually, yes
5. Malankara Orthodox Syrian/ “Indian Orthodox”: Catholics- sometimes, but it is by no means a rule, Byzantine Orthodox- for the most part, yes
6. Syriac/Syrian Orthodox Church: (Unfortunately) regularly communes Catholics, she also communes Byzantine Orthodox (which I really don't mind)

*It is extremely rare, however, Egypt’s Coptic Orthodox Church sometimes communes Catholics, especially in more run-down areas of Egypt where persecution from Muslims is common and there is no Catholic Church around for Catholics to worship and take communion in

As I said, if there were no OO Church I would try to commune in an EO Church. An OO friend of mine grew up in Greece and because there were no OO Churches back then, he communed in the Greek Orthodox Church. Catholics, Assyrians, etc no I would not commune from them, they are just too different from Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #23 on: July 08, 2011, 01:20:28 PM »

1. Assyrian Church of the East
No.
Quote
2. Eastern Orthodox Church
Yes.
Quote
3. Oriental Orthodox Church
No.
Quote
4. Roman Catholic Church
No.
Quote
5. Anglican
No.

If the issues are big enough to divide our bishops, they're too big for a proletarian like me -- who has to rely on what the bishops say is the apolostic faith anyway -- to try to bridge.
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« Reply #24 on: July 08, 2011, 01:27:13 PM »

Quote
Meh... I'd be quite hesitant, quite a bit separates Orthodoxy from Catholicism. If my Bishop granted me dispensation, maybe.
Scratch that, I would not commune in a Roman Catholic Church even if I were granted economy by my bishop.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2011, 01:29:41 PM by Severian » Logged

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« Reply #25 on: July 08, 2011, 02:11:26 PM »


Only legitimate, canonical, Eastern Orthodox for me.
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« Reply #26 on: July 08, 2011, 03:26:19 PM »

I thought that this question was more interesting than the one about communion as it is one that is more likely to be confronted in one's life. (I am just here for this, nothing else....)

Would you refuse, or refuse on behalf of an extremely ill or injured member of your family who could not consent, the Sacrament of Anointing of the Sick or Healing and  accompanying prayers offered by a Roman Catholic, Eastern Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox or Polish National Catholic priest when no priest of your own denomination or faith were available?

I would not so refuse. (Communion is another story....)
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« Reply #27 on: July 08, 2011, 03:30:26 PM »

I thought that this question was more interesting than the one about communion as it is one that is more likely to be confronted in one's life. (I am just here for this, nothing else....)

Would you refuse, or refuse on behalf of an extremely ill or injured member of your family who could not consent, the Sacrament of Anointing of the Sick or Healing and  accompanying prayers offered by a Roman Catholic, Eastern Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox or Polish National Catholic priest when no priest of your own denomination or faith were available?

I would not so refuse. (Communion is another story....)
Nevertheless, my answers would remain the same. If I were dying and couldn't receive anointment from an OO Priest I would receive anointment of the sick from an EO Priest, but never an RC, ACOE, or Anglican Priest.
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« Reply #28 on: July 08, 2011, 03:33:40 PM »

Caution:  The following are only my personal thoughts.  I guess for me the question would be, What is to be accomplished by such an act?  Holy Communion, as I understand it, is an exceptional mystery, an expression not only of our union with Almighty God through Christ, but also of our participation in the Body of Christ (both that physical body and His body as the Church).  It is for this reason, I suppose, that the Roman Catholics in their understanding have often referred to it as the "Most Blessed Sacrament."  Although the outward form of consecration, using the ancient prayers, might be the same in all of the ecclesiastical communities you mentioned, and even more, if I do not consider myself a "member" of that community, why would I partake?  

As many have said in posts on this forum, while we can say where God is (in His Holy Orthodox Church), we cannot say where God is not, and I dare say that I have seen many, many evidences of His grace in the lives of Christians who were non-Orthodox.  No one can say that God could not impart his grace in a heterodox sacrament if He so chooses, but even so, we cannot ever presume to say with certainty when, where, and how this is done.  To me, by communing there, that is essentially what we are saying, judging that, for ourselves, God has done something there.  Nevertheless, having come to the fulness of the faith, why express, by receiving this blessed mystery in a definite, outward manner, my union, before God, with an ecclesiastical entity with which I am not in union?  We are taught that, if we are not properly disposed, we should not receive it even in our own Orthodox Church; if we merely approach it with the attitude that we should "get it" or "receive it," rather than to think of the preciousness of the gift that is being offered, maybe we miss a lot of the blessing.  I am reminded of St. Paul's admonition in 1 Corinthians 11 (with respect to the love feast) that we are not to look to the object, the ceremony, at the expense of its meaning.  For me, as an Orthodox Christian, the meaning of Holy Communion is found in the Orthodox Church.  Communing elsewhere just simply doesn't expresss this.

As for me, while I am content to fellowship and to share in the love of Christ with those in other communions, my respect for the integrity of the Church's wholeness precludes me from doing more, until such time, at least, when schisms are healed and we see the true fulfillment of Christ's prayer in John 17, "I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you."  Although I greatly respect, thank God for, and heartily admire the Christian testimony of those I know from other communions, many of my own relatives and forebears among them, I respect that we should not put the cart before the horse by sharing Holy Communion in such an instance.

Just my two cents.

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« Reply #29 on: July 08, 2011, 03:39:24 PM »

Would you refuse, or refuse on behalf of an extremely ill or injured member of your family who could not consent, the Sacrament of Anointing of the Sick or Healing and  accompanying prayers offered by a Roman Catholic, Eastern Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox or Polish National Catholic priest when no priest of your own denomination or faith were available?

Yes.
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« Reply #30 on: July 08, 2011, 04:24:08 PM »

I thought that this question was more interesting than the one about communion as it is one that is more likely to be confronted in one's life. (I am just here for this, nothing else....)

Would you refuse, or refuse on behalf of an extremely ill or injured member of your family who could not consent, the Sacrament of Anointing of the Sick or Healing and  accompanying prayers offered by a Roman Catholic, Eastern Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox or Polish National Catholic priest when no priest of your own denomination or faith were available?

I would not so refuse. (Communion is another story....)

Yes, I would refuse. I would gladly accept whatever prayers they wanted to offer, but not a sacramental anointing.

Holy Unction carries all the constraints of the other sacraments. We cannot anoint non-Orthodox (so says the Antiochian liturgikon, at least), so we should not be anointed by non-Orthodox. If we are not to commune, be married, or be ordained by a priest of another communion, why would we be sacramentally anointed by him?
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« Reply #31 on: July 08, 2011, 04:28:42 PM »

I thought that this question was more interesting than the one about communion as it is one that is more likely to be confronted in one's life. (I am just here for this, nothing else....)

Would you refuse, or refuse on behalf of an extremely ill or injured member of your family who could not consent, the Sacrament of Anointing of the Sick or Healing and  accompanying prayers offered by a Roman Catholic, Eastern Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox or Polish National Catholic priest when no priest of your own denomination or faith were available?

I would not so refuse. (Communion is another story....)

I would refuse any Sacrament.  A Sacrament is specific to the Faith.  If I don't adhere to that Faith, why would I accept a "Sacrament" from them?

....but, that's just me.  I even feel "weird" when I stand for a prayer led by a non-Orthodox minister, priest, etc.

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« Reply #32 on: July 08, 2011, 04:35:19 PM »

I'm not hating on the RCs or any other denomination, but if I join the Eastern Orthodox Church, I join the Eastern Orthodox Church.

This may be presumptuous, but I like to think that a last anointing is going to have little effect on my salvation (as in, I don't think I'm going to hell just because of that opportunity for a last anointing). So it there is no EO priest around, I won't do it. If the RC/OO priest wants to say a prayer, I'm fine with that.
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« Reply #33 on: July 08, 2011, 05:16:33 PM »

EO all the way. Smiley
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« Reply #34 on: July 08, 2011, 07:53:09 PM »

Perhaps some of our Orthodox clergy, and other clergy, might be willing to share in their own personal experiences with respect to the issue of being called to a hospital or accident scene when no other clergy are available or willing to come.
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« Reply #35 on: July 08, 2011, 09:26:30 PM »

Quote
1. Assyrian Church of the East

Communion: No. They are anathematized heretics. Their "mysteries" mean nothing.

Unction: No, for the same reason.

Quote
2. Eastern Orthodox Church

Communion: I am Eastern Orthodox, so obviously...yes. Grin

Unction: Same, also obviously!

Quote
3. Oriental Orthodox Church

Communion: Yes, if given a dispensation to do so. I believe the Oriental Orthodox to be fully Orthodox, we hold the same faith and would venerate their mysteries as much as I would the EO.

Unction: Again yes. If I believe their Eucharist "valid", to use a Latin term, I would believe the same about Unction.

Quote
4. Roman Catholic Church

Communion: No. The RCC has drifted from the faith. While I hesitate to say their sacraments are graceless, I do believe them to be something less than the Eucharist of the Eastern Orthodox Church, as the RCC no longer hold the fullness of the faith.

Unction: No, I don't believe I would. While there is most likely grace there, in my opinion, I don't believe I would feel right about it. I feel less strongly about this, however, and it would not bother me for another EO to do so, if in a dire situation and no EO priest is reachable.

Quote
5. Anglican

Communion: No, they have drifted from the faith and are even deeply divided amongst themselves. I do not believe their sacrament to be "valid", again to use a Latin term.

Unction: Do Anglicans even do this? Maybe the high church Anglo-Catholics. I don't believe there to be any real grace here, and so I would not believe it to be beneficial. I would not accept it.
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« Reply #36 on: July 08, 2011, 09:48:12 PM »

I was just wondering if you would receive communion from Priests of the following Churches if you couldn't commune from a Priest of your own tradition:

1. Assyrian Church of the East
2. Eastern Orthodox Church
3. Oriental Orthodox Church
4. Roman Catholic Church
5. Anglican

For me, if I couldn't commune in an OO Church...

1. Assyrian Church: No, I'm sorry I just cannot receive the sacraments from a Church which venerates Nestorius. (No offense intended)

2. Eastern Orthodox: Yes, we share the same faith even if we aren't in canonical communion.

3. Roman Catholic: Meh... I'd be quite hesitant, quite a bit separates Orthodoxy from Catholicism. If my Bishop granted me dispensation, maybe.

4. Anglican (even if they believe in the real presence): No. (No offense intended)

What about you? Would you commune in the aforementioned Churches if you couldn't commune in your own Church?

No offense, but I would NEVER commune with a non-Orthodox Catholic Church. EVER. Not even Oriental Orthodox.
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« Reply #37 on: July 08, 2011, 11:49:39 PM »

Quote
1. Assyrian Church of the East

Communion: No. They are anathematized heretics. Their "mysteries" mean nothing.

Unction: No, for the same reason.

Quote
2. Eastern Orthodox Church

Communion: I am Eastern Orthodox, so obviously...yes. Grin

Unction: Same, also obviously!

Quote
3. Oriental Orthodox Church

Communion: Yes, if given a dispensation to do so. I believe the Oriental Orthodox to be fully Orthodox, we hold the same faith and would venerate their mysteries as much as I would the EO.

Unction: Again yes. If I believe their Eucharist "valid", to use a Latin term, I would believe the same about Unction.

Quote
4. Roman Catholic Church

Communion: No. The RCC has drifted from the faith. While I hesitate to say their sacraments are graceless, I do believe them to be something less than the Eucharist of the Eastern Orthodox Church, as the RCC no longer hold the fullness of the faith.

Unction: No, I don't believe I would. While there is most likely grace there, in my opinion, I don't believe I would feel right about it. I feel less strongly about this, however, and it would not bother me for another EO to do so, if in a dire situation and no EO priest is reachable.

Quote
5. Anglican

Communion: No, they have drifted from the faith and are even deeply divided amongst themselves. I do not believe their sacrament to be "valid", again to use a Latin term.

Unction: Do Anglicans even do this? Maybe the high church Anglo-Catholics. I don't believe there to be any real grace here, and so I would not believe it to be beneficial. I would not accept it.

Interesting so the Assyrian "Orthodox" are definitely out. But the Oriental "Orthodox" are in? Both have been condemned by an Ecumenical Council as being graceless heretics. I wouldn't attend a non Orthodox Church if I was in an area that had absolutely no Orthodox parish. Why would I? I might as well go have bacon and eggs, or go bowling, or do any of a number of things.

Bottom line is, if you're an Orthodox Christian and you find yourself in an area with no Orthodox parish you should do services on your own, Matins, Hours, Akathists, etc.
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« Reply #38 on: July 08, 2011, 11:54:03 PM »

@Chtets Ioann  I don't want a polemical debate please. You have been warned before for making polemical posts about non-Chalcedonians. I'm tempted to report you to the moderators for caling us "graceless heretics" on the public forum, but, I will not. Please behave yourself.
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« Reply #39 on: July 09, 2011, 12:17:08 AM »

@Chtets Ioann  I don't want a polemical debate please. You have been warned before for making polemical posts about non-Chalcedonians. I'm tempted to report you to the moderators for caling us "graceless heretics" on the public forum, but, I will not. Please behave yourself.

But why would you report me for stating on an Orthodox forum what the Orthodox Fathers attested to, at the 4th Ecumenical Council? The point is however, that Orthodox Christians may not attend or commune in non Orthodox Churches because of the belief that the Orthodox Church is the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. If you as an Armenian or Copt or whatever you are would like to come to an Orthodox Church, you are certainly welcome to... without partaking in any Mysteries nor receiving any blessings (antidoron, holy water, oil).
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« Reply #40 on: July 09, 2011, 12:53:04 AM »

Look I don't want to argue, but, I know that calling non-Chalcedonians graceless heretics on the public forum is forbidden. Let's just both quit while we are ahead, we will never reach an agreement. I certainly don't want to get in trouble for creating a polemical debate about Chalcedon and I would honestly hate to see you get in trouble. I saw you get warned on another thread for this sort of stuff. Let's just agree to disagree and respond to the forum appropriately, okay? I don't mind being called a graceless heretic, but, on the public forum, no way am I tolerating it. I'm used to accusations of heresy and I'm used to hearing my Saints and my Church being insulted, degraded and accused of adhering to a heresy which she has always condemned (i.e. "monophysitism"). You do not believe I am Orthodox, and you do not have to, I can understand why you consider me a "heretic", but, on the public forum it is strictly forbidden to call me one.

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« Reply #41 on: July 09, 2011, 11:10:10 AM »

If you as an Armenian or Copt or whatever you are would like to come to an Orthodox Church, you are certainly welcome to... without partaking in any Mysteries nor receiving any blessings (antidoron, holy water, oil).

I don't want to enter into the EO vs. OO debate, but I do want to mention that this is the first time I've heard that non-Orthodox aren't allowed to receive antidoron or holy water.
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« Reply #42 on: July 09, 2011, 11:17:09 AM »

Antidoron is available to all who wish to partake at my church.
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« Reply #43 on: July 09, 2011, 11:54:11 AM »

It's really surprising how differently  and assyrians are treated on this forum by mostly convert American Orthodox, all the while the canonical tradition of our church seems to treat them on the same level. Now, that said, I like them both, maybe the Assyrians a bit more, just because my life's circumstances brought me into closer contact with them. I have never communed, in my whole life, elsewhere than in the OC, although  could have both with the RC and the Assyrians.
If I were in danger of death though, I might consider receiving the Communion from either the OO, RC or Assyrians.
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« Reply #44 on: July 09, 2011, 12:14:24 PM »

Quote
3. Oriental Orthodox Church

Communion: Yes, if given a dispensation to do so. I believe the Oriental Orthodox to be fully Orthodox, we hold the same faith and would venerate their mysteries as much as I would the EO.

Unction: Again yes. If I believe their Eucharist "valid", to use a Latin term, I would believe the same about Unction.

This would be my position as well - along with the rest of Benjamin the Red's analysis. However, I have never looked into the Assyrian Church at all, so the result is that the answer would still be "no" (to both) because of my not being sure of their faith.
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« Reply #45 on: July 09, 2011, 02:11:16 PM »

But why would you report me for stating on an Orthodox forum what the Orthodox Fathers attested to, at the 4th Ecumenical Council? The point is however, that Orthodox Christians may not attend or commune in non Orthodox Churches because of the belief that the Orthodox Church is the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. If you as an Armenian or Copt or whatever you are would like to come to an Orthodox Church, you are certainly welcome to... without partaking in any Mysteries nor receiving any blessings (antidoron, holy water, oil).

Amen.
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« Reply #46 on: July 09, 2011, 05:50:29 PM »

Interesting so the Assyrian "Orthodox" are definitely out. But the Oriental "Orthodox" are in? Both have been condemned by an Ecumenical Council as being graceless heretics. I wouldn't attend a non Orthodox Church if I was in an area that had absolutely no Orthodox parish. Why would I? I might as well go have bacon and eggs, or go bowling, or do any of a number of things.

Bottom line is, if you're an Orthodox Christian and you find yourself in an area with no Orthodox parish you should do services on your own, Matins, Hours, Akathists, etc.

Yes, the Assyrians are out, and the OOs are in. Yes, both have been declared heretics in the past. However, there is a difference between them. The EO and OO have always maintained a relationship, and always accepted that there is something grace-filled among the other. You can read the history about EOs and OOs accepting each other's clergy by vesting and their laity by confession of faith. Never, to my knowledge, has either communion had the regular policy of chrismating/baptizing converts from each other.

And now, in the last few years, much dialogue has occurred between the OO and the EO, and we have signed declarations stating each other's Orthodoxy and lifted anathemas. We recognize a unity of faith and are working towards the very attainable goal of full, eucharistic reunification. There has been no dialogue with the Nestorians, who have walled themselves off from the Church and are dying off. They have been cut off from the church, the OO have not.

Since I saw that you are ROCOR, let me mention that the Russian Orthodox Church, has been a leader in dialogue both with the OOC and the RCC. To my knowledge, the Russian Orthodox Church maintains the belief that the OO hold valid sacraments, as  do the RCs. I know many ROC, laity and clergy, that will cross themselves when they pass a Roman Catholic temple in veneration of their Eucharist.
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« Reply #47 on: July 09, 2011, 06:13:43 PM »

Interesting so the Assyrian "Orthodox" are definitely out. But the Oriental "Orthodox" are in? Both have been condemned by an Ecumenical Council as being graceless heretics. I wouldn't attend a non Orthodox Church if I was in an area that had absolutely no Orthodox parish. Why would I? I might as well go have bacon and eggs, or go bowling, or do any of a number of things.

Bottom line is, if you're an Orthodox Christian and you find yourself in an area with no Orthodox parish you should do services on your own, Matins, Hours, Akathists, etc.

Yes, the Assyrians are out, and the OOs are in. Yes, both have been declared heretics in the past. However, there is a difference between them. The EO and OO have always maintained a relationship, and always accepted that there is something grace-filled among the other. You can read the history about EOs and OOs accepting each other's clergy by vesting and their laity by confession of faith. Never, to my knowledge, has either communion had the regular policy of chrismating/baptizing converts from each other.

And now, in the last few years, much dialogue has occurred between the OO and the EO, and we have signed declarations stating each other's Orthodoxy and lifted anathemas. We recognize a unity of faith and are working towards the very attainable goal of full, eucharistic reunification. There has been no dialogue with the Nestorians, who have walled themselves off from the Church and are dying off. They have been cut off from the church, the OO have not.


Since I saw that you are ROCOR, let me mention that the Russian Orthodox Church, has been a leader in dialogue both with the OOC and the RCC. To my knowledge, the Russian Orthodox Church maintains the belief that the OO hold valid sacraments, as  do the RCs. I know many ROC, laity and clergy, that will cross themselves when they pass a Roman Catholic temple in veneration of their Eucharist.

The reception by vesting has become practice due to the Unia and shifting borders. One year a parish could find itself under the Unia, and the next under the Moscow Patriarchate, therefore the priest was simply vested and received back into the Orthodox Church. I'm not sure that many OOs clergy would come into Orthodoxy through the Russian Church since it simply is not in their area, however the Greek Patriarchates receive Roman Catholic and Oriental Clergy by chrismation, and ordination through the ranks.

As for those decelerations you speak about, they are decelerations of meetings and conferences, not Church councils. Such statements are null and void, and they do not hold the authority which a Church Council holds. The council must be Pan Orthodox, all the representatives of the Patriarchates and Autocephalus Churches must sign and agree to the subject matter at hand, for example, that the Oriental's are really Orthodox. However even if that was to happen, it would be contradicting the decision of the 4th Ecumenical Council Which most Orthodox Christians on this forum I am sorry to say, blatantly blaspheme and ignore and therefore, would also be null and void.

As for you what you said that the Russian Orthodox Church accepts Roman Catholic mysteries, in my experience with clergy both inside Russia and here abroad the consensus is that there is no grace outside of Orthodoxy. Metropolitan Hilarion of Volokolamsk it is true did say there was grace in the Roman Catholic Church, but this is his own private opinion, and it by no means represents the plethora of Russian clergy and laity who are very anti Roman Catholic. A simple glossing over of a Russian history text book will show you how just anti Latin we are. Also, please note that the Russian Orthodox Church has said that the dialogue with Rome is going no where, and from henceforth we should simply strive to cooperate on moral issues and to fight secularism, not to talk about doctrine, not to talk about union as they are impossible goals.
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« Reply #48 on: July 09, 2011, 08:26:08 PM »

Interesting so the Assyrian "Orthodox" are definitely out. But the Oriental "Orthodox" are in? Both have been condemned by an Ecumenical Council as being graceless heretics. I wouldn't attend a non Orthodox Church if I was in an area that had absolutely no Orthodox parish. Why would I? I might as well go have bacon and eggs, or go bowling, or do any of a number of things.

Bottom line is, if you're an Orthodox Christian and you find yourself in an area with no Orthodox parish you should do services on your own, Matins, Hours, Akathists, etc.

Yes, the Assyrians are out, and the OOs are in. Yes, both have been declared heretics in the past. However, there is a difference between them. The EO and OO have always maintained a relationship, and always accepted that there is something grace-filled among the other. You can read the history about EOs and OOs accepting each other's clergy by vesting and their laity by confession of faith. Never, to my knowledge, has either communion had the regular policy of chrismating/baptizing converts from each other.

And now, in the last few years, much dialogue has occurred between the OO and the EO, and we have signed declarations stating each other's Orthodoxy and lifted anathemas. We recognize a unity of faith and are working towards the very attainable goal of full, eucharistic reunification. There has been no dialogue with the Nestorians, who have walled themselves off from the Church and are dying off. They have been cut off from the church, the OO have not.


Since I saw that you are ROCOR, let me mention that the Russian Orthodox Church, has been a leader in dialogue both with the OOC and the RCC. To my knowledge, the Russian Orthodox Church maintains the belief that the OO hold valid sacraments, as  do the RCs. I know many ROC, laity and clergy, that will cross themselves when they pass a Roman Catholic temple in veneration of their Eucharist.

The reception by vesting has become practice due to the Unia and shifting borders. One year a parish could find itself under the Unia, and the next under the Moscow Patriarchate, therefore the priest was simply vested and received back into the Orthodox Church. I'm not sure that many OOs clergy would come into Orthodoxy through the Russian Church since it simply is not in their area, however the Greek Patriarchates receive Roman Catholic and Oriental Clergy by chrismation, and ordination through the ranks.

As for those decelerations you speak about, they are decelerations of meetings and conferences, not Church councils. Such statements are null and void, and they do not hold the authority which a Church Council holds. The council must be Pan Orthodox, all the representatives of the Patriarchates and Autocephalus Churches must sign and agree to the subject matter at hand, for example, that the Oriental's are really Orthodox. However even if that was to happen, it would be contradicting the decision of the 4th Ecumenical Council Which most Orthodox Christians on this forum I am sorry to say, blatantly blaspheme and ignore and therefore, would also be null and void.

As for you what you said that the Russian Orthodox Church accepts Roman Catholic mysteries, in my experience with clergy both inside Russia and here abroad the consensus is that there is no grace outside of Orthodoxy. Metropolitan Hilarion of Volokolamsk it is true did say there was grace in the Roman Catholic Church, but this is his own private opinion, and it by no means represents the plethora of Russian clergy and laity who are very anti Roman Catholic. A simple glossing over of a Russian history text book will show you how just anti Latin we are. Also, please note that the Russian Orthodox Church has said that the dialogue with Rome is going no where, and from henceforth we should simply strive to cooperate on moral issues and to fight secularism, not to talk about doctrine, not to talk about union as they are impossible goals.
I hate to break it to you, but, many Churches of the Moscow Patriarchate commune Orientals, I have even heard of a few ROCOR parishes communing us. Furthermore, the schism between Chalcedonians and non-Chalcedonians did not happen the day after Chalcedon, contrary to popular belief. But as I have said, enough! Arguments about Chalcedon are strictly forbidden on the public forum! If you drag other people into an argument, because they feel insulted by being called "graceless heretics", you will get us all in trouble. Please, let's just agree to disagree and stop discussing this. You are free to think of the [Oriental] Orthodox Church as you please, but that does not give you the right to insult us, especially on a public forum.
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« Reply #49 on: July 09, 2011, 08:43:32 PM »

Interesting so the Assyrian "Orthodox" are definitely out. But the Oriental "Orthodox" are in? Both have been condemned by an Ecumenical Council as being graceless heretics. I wouldn't attend a non Orthodox Church if I was in an area that had absolutely no Orthodox parish. Why would I? I might as well go have bacon and eggs, or go bowling, or do any of a number of things.

Bottom line is, if you're an Orthodox Christian and you find yourself in an area with no Orthodox parish you should do services on your own, Matins, Hours, Akathists, etc.

Yes, the Assyrians are out, and the OOs are in. Yes, both have been declared heretics in the past. However, there is a difference between them. The EO and OO have always maintained a relationship, and always accepted that there is something grace-filled among the other. You can read the history about EOs and OOs accepting each other's clergy by vesting and their laity by confession of faith. Never, to my knowledge, has either communion had the regular policy of chrismating/baptizing converts from each other.

And now, in the last few years, much dialogue has occurred between the OO and the EO, and we have signed declarations stating each other's Orthodoxy and lifted anathemas. We recognize a unity of faith and are working towards the very attainable goal of full, eucharistic reunification. There has been no dialogue with the Nestorians, who have walled themselves off from the Church and are dying off. They have been cut off from the church, the OO have not.


Since I saw that you are ROCOR, let me mention that the Russian Orthodox Church, has been a leader in dialogue both with the OOC and the RCC. To my knowledge, the Russian Orthodox Church maintains the belief that the OO hold valid sacraments, as  do the RCs. I know many ROC, laity and clergy, that will cross themselves when they pass a Roman Catholic temple in veneration of their Eucharist.

The reception by vesting has become practice due to the Unia and shifting borders. One year a parish could find itself under the Unia, and the next under the Moscow Patriarchate, therefore the priest was simply vested and received back into the Orthodox Church. I'm not sure that many OOs clergy would come into Orthodoxy through the Russian Church since it simply is not in their area, however the Greek Patriarchates receive Roman Catholic and Oriental Clergy by chrismation, and ordination through the ranks.

As for those decelerations you speak about, they are decelerations of meetings and conferences, not Church councils. Such statements are null and void, and they do not hold the authority which a Church Council holds. The council must be Pan Orthodox, all the representatives of the Patriarchates and Autocephalus Churches must sign and agree to the subject matter at hand, for example, that the Oriental's are really Orthodox. However even if that was to happen, it would be contradicting the decision of the 4th Ecumenical Council Which most Orthodox Christians on this forum I am sorry to say, blatantly blaspheme and ignore and therefore, would also be null and void.

As for you what you said that the Russian Orthodox Church accepts Roman Catholic mysteries, in my experience with clergy both inside Russia and here abroad the consensus is that there is no grace outside of Orthodoxy. Metropolitan Hilarion of Volokolamsk it is true did say there was grace in the Roman Catholic Church, but this is his own private opinion, and it by no means represents the plethora of Russian clergy and laity who are very anti Roman Catholic. A simple glossing over of a Russian history text book will show you how just anti Latin we are. Also, please note that the Russian Orthodox Church has said that the dialogue with Rome is going no where, and from henceforth we should simply strive to cooperate on moral issues and to fight secularism, not to talk about doctrine, not to talk about union as they are impossible goals.
I hate to break it to you, but, many Churches of the Moscow Patriarchate commune Orientals, I have even heard of a few ROCOR parishes communing us. Furthermore, the schism between Chalcedonians and non-Chalcedonians did not happen the day after Chalcedon, contrary to popular belief. But as I have said, enough! Arguments about Chalcedon are strictly forbidden on the public forum! If you drag other people into an argument, because they feel insulted by being called "graceless heretics", you will get us all in trouble. Please, let's just agree to disagree and stop discussing this. You are free to think of the [Oriental] Orthodox Church as you please, but that does not give you the right to insult us, especially on a public forum.

Agreed, schisms take time to formulate, but to clarify... as being in the Russian Church I know we do the following: when Orientals come we tell them you may commune here after chrismation/giving a confession of faith, and you may only commune here, without going to an Oriental Church again. From this point on, we consider them Eastern Orthodox, and not Oriental.

And I agree, we should end this here. But this post is just to clarify that we don't give Communion to just anyone.
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« Reply #50 on: July 09, 2011, 08:46:09 PM »

And I agree, we should end this here. But this post is just to clarify that we don't give Communion to just anyone.
Thank you for being a reasonable person. Smiley
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« Reply #51 on: July 10, 2011, 06:41:59 AM »

Interesting so the Assyrian "Orthodox" are definitely out. But the Oriental "Orthodox" are in?

The East Syrians are not really ever referred to as Orthodox by people who really have any clue what they are talking about. The difference being that both the Byzantines and Orientals have now shown themselves to uphold doctrinal statements which reflect a fairly solid orthodox doctrinal perspective, whereas the East Syrians have not.

Not to say that that justifies partaking of Sacraments with schismatics, but at least it explains the difference between these two groups and the sentiments about them.
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« Reply #52 on: July 10, 2011, 06:44:12 AM »

@Chtets Ioann  I don't want a polemical debate please. You have been warned before for making polemical posts about non-Chalcedonians. I'm tempted to report you to the moderators for caling us "graceless heretics" on the public forum, but, I will not. Please behave yourself.

But why would you report me for stating on an Orthodox forum what the Orthodox Fathers attested to, at the 4th Ecumenical Council? The point is however, that Orthodox Christians may not attend or commune in non Orthodox Churches because of the belief that the Orthodox Church is the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. If you as an Armenian or Copt or whatever you are would like to come to an Orthodox Church, you are certainly welcome to... without partaking in any Mysteries nor receiving any blessings (antidoron, holy water, oil).

Very simple: this is not an "Orthodox" forum in the way you are suggesting. This is a joint "Eastern Orthodox" and "Oriental Orthodox" site. Therefore you can't expect the site to act on a policy of the Non-Chalcedonians not being Orthodox.
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« Reply #53 on: July 10, 2011, 06:46:29 AM »

It's really surprising how differently  and assyrians are treated on this forum by mostly convert American Orthodox, all the while the canonical tradition of our church seems to treat them on the same level. Now, that said, I like them both, maybe the Assyrians a bit more, just because my life's circumstances brought me into closer contact with them. I have never communed, in my whole life, elsewhere than in the OC, although  could have both with the RC and the Assyrians.
If I were in danger of death though, I might consider receiving the Communion from either the OO, RC or Assyrians.


Some of your posts are really awesome.  Wink
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« Reply #54 on: July 10, 2011, 06:51:18 AM »

Furthermore, the schism between Chalcedonians and non-Chalcedonians did not happen the day after Chalcedon, contrary to popular belief.

Depends on how you look at it. In so far as the "Fathers" of Chalcedon were representative of the teaching of the Chalcedonians and Saint Dioscorus was representative of the teaching of the OO, then the schism started in the midst of Chalcedon itself. On the other end of the spectrum, in so far as schism constitutes general visible breaking of communion, it didn't really finalize until about 100 years later.
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« Reply #55 on: July 17, 2011, 02:24:06 AM »

Quote
I also wouldn't receive from an EO or OO priest, but for a different reason: even if I found one who would allow me to (which is very likely)
I don't know too many EO or OO Priests who could commune you. I know sometimes that the EO Antiochian Church communes Catholics, other EO do not. As for the OO Churches, here's there status about communing non-OO (well, from what I've heard):

1. Coptic Orthodox: Catholics*- almost/if not never, Byzantine Orthodox- sometimes, but it’s not common practice
2. Ethiopian Orthodox: Catholics- (from what I can tell) almost/if not never, Byzantine Orthodox- probably sometimes
3. Eritrean Orthodox: Same as Ethiopian Orthodox (most likely)
4. Armenian Apostolic Orthodox: Catholics- up to the discretion of the clergy, Byzantine Orthodox- usually, yes
5. Malankara Orthodox Syrian/ “Indian Orthodox”: Catholics- sometimes, but it is by no means a rule, Byzantine Orthodox- for the most part, yes
6. Syriac/Syrian Orthodox Church: (Unfortunately) regularly communes Catholics, she also communes Byzantine Orthodox (which I really don't mind)

*It is extremely rare, however, Egypt’s Coptic Orthodox Church sometimes communes Catholics, especially in more run-down areas of Egypt where persecution from Muslims is common and there is no Catholic Church around for Catholics to worship and take communion in

As I said, if there were no OO Church I would try to commune in an EO Church. An OO friend of mine grew up in Greece and because there were no OO Churches back then, he communed in the Greek Orthodox Church. Catholics, Assyrians, etc no I would not commune from them, they are just too different from Orthodoxy.
As my friends Doured and Tony explain it, at least in Iraq, you can't switch. If you were born in a Syriac Orthodox parish, you're Orthodox. If you were born in a Syriac Catholic parish (they say Syriac Catholic - weird. I always see Syrian), you're Catholic.

It has to do with making sure good records are kept of everyone's sacraments.

So Doured and Tony are cousins, both their mothers are Orthodox, but their father is Catholic so they are Catholic. I think Doured's wife is Orthodox. They come to the Byzantine Catholic parish here in town (which is partnered with the local Maronite mission). Lots of other Syriac Catholics come here. I don't know if any Syriac Orthodox do for sure.

Tony and Doured seem to think it's the same religion, except for the name, so far as I can tell.
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« Reply #56 on: July 17, 2011, 02:28:36 AM »

Quote
I also wouldn't receive from an EO or OO priest, but for a different reason: even if I found one who would allow me to (which is very likely)
I don't know too many EO or OO Priests who could commune you. I know sometimes that the EO Antiochian Church communes Catholics, other EO do not. As for the OO Churches, here's there status about communing non-OO (well, from what I've heard):

1. Coptic Orthodox: Catholics*- almost/if not never, Byzantine Orthodox- sometimes, but it’s not common practice
2. Ethiopian Orthodox: Catholics- (from what I can tell) almost/if not never, Byzantine Orthodox- probably sometimes
3. Eritrean Orthodox: Same as Ethiopian Orthodox (most likely)
4. Armenian Apostolic Orthodox: Catholics- up to the discretion of the clergy, Byzantine Orthodox- usually, yes
5. Malankara Orthodox Syrian/ “Indian Orthodox”: Catholics- sometimes, but it is by no means a rule, Byzantine Orthodox- for the most part, yes
6. Syriac/Syrian Orthodox Church: (Unfortunately) regularly communes Catholics, she also communes Byzantine Orthodox (which I really don't mind)

*It is extremely rare, however, Egypt’s Coptic Orthodox Church sometimes communes Catholics, especially in more run-down areas of Egypt where persecution from Muslims is common and there is no Catholic Church around for Catholics to worship and take communion in

As I said, if there were no OO Church I would try to commune in an EO Church. An OO friend of mine grew up in Greece and because there were no OO Churches back then, he communed in the Greek Orthodox Church. Catholics, Assyrians, etc no I would not commune from them, they are just too different from Orthodoxy.
As my friends Doured and Tony explain it, at least in Iraq, you can't switch. If you were born in a Syriac Orthodox parish, you're Orthodox. If you were born in a Syriac Catholic parish (they say Syriac Catholic - weird. I always see Syrian), you're Catholic.

It has to do with making sure good records are kept of everyone's sacraments.

So Doured and Tony are cousins, both their mothers are Orthodox, but their father is Catholic so they are Catholic. I think Doured's wife is Orthodox. They come to the Byzantine Catholic parish here in town (which is partnered with the local Maronite mission). Lots of other Syriac Catholics come here. I don't know if any Syriac Orthodox do for sure.

Tony and Doured seem to think it's the same religion, except for the name, so far as I can tell.
Interesting... But, you would be correct in saying that the Syriac Orthodox are more lax when it comes to communing and receiving communion from non-Orthodox. So maybe you do have some Syriac Orthodox in the Byzantine Catholic parish you were referring to.
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« Reply #57 on: July 17, 2011, 03:07:33 AM »

After I become Orthodox, I would never receive communion outside of the Orthodox Church (and I have no reason to before I become Orthodox).
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« Reply #58 on: July 17, 2011, 03:36:33 AM »

I am answering this assuming it is in a hypothetical scenario where I am unable to get to any Catholic Church (Roman or any of the 22 Eastern Churches) and it is either on a Saturday evening or sunday morning and I need to get to a church in order to not break the third commandment.

I would commune in the OOC provided that I received permission from the priest of the parish to do so. Same goes for the EOC and ACOE. I would not commune with Anglicans because my Church does not recognize the validity of their Sacraments.
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« Reply #59 on: July 17, 2011, 03:54:41 AM »

I am answering this assuming it is in a hypothetical scenario where I am unable to get to any Catholic Church (Roman or any of the 22 Eastern Churches) and it is either on a Saturday evening or sunday morning and I need to get to a church in order to not break the third commandment.

I would commune in the OOC provided that I received permission from the priest of the parish to do so. Same goes for the EOC and ACOE. I would not commune with Anglicans because my Church does not recognize the validity of their Sacraments.
You would commune in the ACOE? I think there's a lot of evidence to suggest that they still adhere to a moderate form of the Nestorian heresy. Of course I respect your decision.

God bless,
Severian
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« Reply #60 on: July 17, 2011, 04:07:35 AM »

I am answering this assuming it is in a hypothetical scenario where I am unable to get to any Catholic Church (Roman or any of the 22 Eastern Churches) and it is either on a Saturday evening or sunday morning and I need to get to a church in order to not break the third commandment.

I would commune in the OOC provided that I received permission from the priest of the parish to do so. Same goes for the EOC and ACOE. I would not commune with Anglicans because my Church does not recognize the validity of their Sacraments.
You would commune in the ACOE? I think there's a lot of evidence to suggest that they still adhere to a moderate form of the Nestorian heresy. Of course I respect your decision.

God bless,
Severian
Well, none of the above options would be my first choice since I would obviously prefer to commune in my own Church if at all possible, yet my Church recognizes the Grace which exists in the ACOE as well as the OOC and EOC. Because of this I must recognize that it is truly Christ present on their altars as well.
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« Reply #61 on: July 17, 2011, 04:08:57 AM »

I am answering this assuming it is in a hypothetical scenario where I am unable to get to any Catholic Church (Roman or any of the 22 Eastern Churches) and it is either on a Saturday evening or sunday morning and I need to get to a church in order to not break the third commandment.

I would commune in the OOC provided that I received permission from the priest of the parish to do so. Same goes for the EOC and ACOE. I would not commune with Anglicans because my Church does not recognize the validity of their Sacraments.
You would commune in the ACOE? I think there's a lot of evidence to suggest that they still adhere to a moderate form of the Nestorian heresy. Of course I respect your decision.

God bless,
Severian
Well, none of the above options would be my first choice since I would obviously prefer to commune in my own Church if at all possible, yet my Church recognizes the Grace which exists in the ACOE as well as the OOC and EOC. Because of this I must recognize that it is truly Christ present on their altars as well.
I see... Makes sense, after all, it is only natural that you would want to obey your Church and recognize their sacraments.
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« Reply #62 on: July 23, 2011, 01:11:43 PM »

As some others have said, if our bishops haven't sorted it out, it's not my place to pretend that I can figure that out on my own.

I absolutely LOVE the OO (I really pray for speedy reconciliation), but it's not my place to pick and choose which canons and disciplines to follow and not follow. So, unless we're in formal communion, I will not partake of any sacrament outside of the EO. I would do prayers on my own in private if I were nowhere near an EO church.
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« Reply #63 on: July 23, 2011, 01:31:26 PM »

And what if your bishop and priest said that you could commune in an OO congregation?
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« Reply #64 on: July 23, 2011, 01:33:16 PM »

And what if your bishop and priest said that you could commune in an OO congregation?

With their permission, I would if necessary. Smiley
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« Reply #65 on: July 23, 2011, 01:48:13 PM »

And what if your bishop and priest said that you could commune in an OO congregation?

I don't know.
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« Reply #66 on: July 23, 2011, 02:02:59 PM »

Antidoron is available to all who wish to partake at my church.

Mine too
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« Reply #67 on: July 23, 2011, 09:11:56 PM »

As some others have said, if our bishops haven't sorted it out, it's not my place to pretend that I can figure that out on my own.

I absolutely LOVE the OO (I really pray for speedy reconciliation), but it's not my place to pick and choose which canons and disciplines to follow and not follow. So, unless we're in formal communion, I will not partake of any sacrament outside of the EO. I would do prayers on my own in private if I were nowhere near an EO church.

If the only church near you was an OO church, wouldn't you want to attend without receiving communion?
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« Reply #68 on: July 24, 2011, 10:59:51 AM »

As some others have said, if our bishops haven't sorted it out, it's not my place to pretend that I can figure that out on my own.

I absolutely LOVE the OO (I really pray for speedy reconciliation), but it's not my place to pick and choose which canons and disciplines to follow and not follow. So, unless we're in formal communion, I will not partake of any sacrament outside of the EO. I would do prayers on my own in private if I were nowhere near an EO church.

If the only church near you was an OO church, wouldn't you want to attend without receiving communion?

NO! MUST NOT PRAY WITH HERETICS!  laugh Tongue
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« Reply #69 on: July 24, 2011, 11:38:45 PM »

As some others have said, if our bishops haven't sorted it out, it's not my place to pretend that I can figure that out on my own.

I absolutely LOVE the OO (I really pray for speedy reconciliation), but it's not my place to pick and choose which canons and disciplines to follow and not follow. So, unless we're in formal communion, I will not partake of any sacrament outside of the EO. I would do prayers on my own in private if I were nowhere near an EO church.

If the only church near you was an OO church, wouldn't you want to attend without receiving communion?

NO! MUST NOT PRAY WITH HERETICS!  laugh Tongue

+1
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« Reply #70 on: August 01, 2011, 11:09:16 PM »

Nevermind.
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« Reply #71 on: August 02, 2011, 01:51:50 AM »

As some others have said, if our bishops haven't sorted it out, it's not my place to pretend that I can figure that out on my own.

I absolutely LOVE the OO (I really pray for speedy reconciliation), but it's not my place to pick and choose which canons and disciplines to follow and not follow. So, unless we're in formal communion, I will not partake of any sacrament outside of the EO. I would do prayers on my own in private if I were nowhere near an EO church.

If the only church near you was an OO church, wouldn't you want to attend without receiving communion?

NO! MUST NOT PRAY WITH HERETICS!  laugh Tongue
What kind of a test would you give to everyone at a Church before you would pray in that Church? What if someone in the Church was pro-choice, would you then refuse to attend the Divine Liturgy, since you would be praying with a heretic?
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« Reply #72 on: August 02, 2011, 04:13:08 AM »

What kind of a test would you give to everyone at a Church before you would pray in that Church? What if someone in the Church was pro-choice, would you then refuse to attend the Divine Liturgy, since you would be praying with a heretic?

How many, in your  opinion, there are Orthodox Churches that support abortion?

You show the great lack of understanding about the Orthodox Church, the very Protestant-like one.
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« Reply #73 on: August 02, 2011, 05:19:19 AM »

What kind of a test would you give to everyone at a Church before you would pray in that Church? What if someone in the Church was pro-choice, would you then refuse to attend the Divine Liturgy, since you would be praying with a heretic?

How many, in your  opinion, there are Orthodox Churches that support abortion?

You show the great lack of understanding about the Orthodox Church, the very Protestant-like one.
There is no Orthodox Church that supports abortion. However, there are people in the Orthodox Church who are pro-choice, are there not? For example, there is a TV commentator who is a son of an Orthodox priest, yet he has expressed pro-choice views.  The question is whether or not you can pray with a heretic. It is asserted above: " MUST NOT PRAY WITH HERETICS!" I don't see how you would be able to follow this rule. For example, during the Communist era in Eastern Europe there were Communists who had their daughters married in the Orthodox Church. Now if you were going to impose the rule of  MUST NOT PRAY WITH HERETICS! then that would imply that you would not be able to attend Divine Liturgy when a member of the Communist Party was present. And you could not attend the DL if a pro-choice person were present, because you would be praying with a heretic, would you not?
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« Reply #74 on: August 02, 2011, 05:49:54 AM »

And you could not attend the DL if a pro-choice person were present, because you would be praying with a heretic, would you not?

No.

To become a heretic one should be declared a heretic by the Church. Our personal opinion does not matter.
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« Reply #75 on: August 02, 2011, 07:20:16 AM »

According to the Fathers, heresy is separation from God.  As an Orthodox Christian, even if I were on my death bed and I could not find an Orthodox priest to hear my confession and administer the mysteries to me, there is no way that I could entertain the thought of receiving "sacraments" from those who our saints and Holy Fathers say are heretics.  It would be better to preserve the true faith and not receive the mysteries on my death bed, than to use my last moments to apostatize by receiving the "sacraments" from heretics.  If I had no other recourse, I would write out my final confession and ask a loved one to mail it to my spiritual father. 
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« Reply #76 on: August 02, 2011, 08:47:41 AM »

stanley123,

There is a difference between heresy and other problems in the Church (communism, pro-choice, etc.). It is heresy that is feared. For example, we find in the Sayings of the Desert Fathers:

Quote
It was said concerning Abba Agathon that some monks came to find him having heard tell of his great discernment. Wanting to see if he would lose his temper they said to him 'Aren't you that Agathon who is said to be a fornicator and a proud man?' 'Yes, it is very true,' he answered. They resumed, 'Aren't you that Agothon who is always talking nonsense?' 'I am." Again they said 'Aren't you Agothon the heretic?' But at that he replied 'I am not a heretic.' So they asked him, 'Tell us why you accepted everything we cast you, but repudiated this last insult.' He replied 'The first accusations I take to myself for that is good for my soul. But heresy is separation from God. Now I have no wish to be separated from God.' At this saying they were astonished at his discernment and returned, edified.

--Abba Agathon

Also, I think most Orthodox, even those in traditionalist churches, have a more nuanced position than you are giving them credit for. No on ever said "ZOMG Edwardo over there in row #3 might be a heretic! We better run away!" Now, if a lot of the parish were openly saying that Jesus was a created deity, and the priest was wishy washy on the point, that'd be another matter.
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« Reply #77 on: August 02, 2011, 09:22:13 AM »

stanley123,

There is a difference between heresy and other problems in the Church (communism, pro-choice, etc.). It is heresy that is feared. For example, we find in the Sayings of the Desert Fathers:

Quote
It was said concerning Abba Agathon that some monks came to find him having heard tell of his great discernment. Wanting to see if he would lose his temper they said to him 'Aren't you that Agathon who is said to be a fornicator and a proud man?' 'Yes, it is very true,' he answered. They resumed, 'Aren't you that Agothon who is always talking nonsense?' 'I am." Again they said 'Aren't you Agothon the heretic?' But at that he replied 'I am not a heretic.' So they asked him, 'Tell us why you accepted everything we cast you, but repudiated this last insult.' He replied 'The first accusations I take to myself for that is good for my soul. But heresy is separation from God. Now I have no wish to be separated from God.' At this saying they were astonished at his discernment and returned, edified.

--Abba Agathon

Also, I think most Orthodox, even those in traditionalist churches, have a more nuanced position than you are giving them credit for. No on ever said "ZOMG Edwardo over there in row #3 might be a heretic! We better run away!" Now, if a lot of the parish were openly saying that Jesus was a created deity, and the priest was wishy washy on the point, that'd be another matter.

It's not a matter of giving credit, it's a matter of TristanCross's statement:

NO! MUST NOT PRAY WITH HERETICS!  laugh Tongue
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« Reply #78 on: August 02, 2011, 09:28:49 AM »

And the cheesy emoticon and tongue emoticon are just along for the ride?  Smiley  Btw, I'm not saying that some people don't take the idea too far, I just don't think people take it as far as is being commented on here (I'm trying not to use the term strawman, because I can understand the frustration, and that the lines are blurred, but still... come on, even traditionalists wouldn't tell you, for example, to not go to a family funeral because you would have to pray with heretics... there is a certain application and meaning to the idea that is being blown well out of proportion here... wait, why am I still in parenthesis?  well anyway...)
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« Reply #79 on: August 02, 2011, 09:53:41 AM »


It's not a matter of giving credit, it's a matter of TristanCross's statement:

NO! MUST NOT PRAY WITH HERETICS!  laugh Tongue

Tristan is referring here to the 45th Canon of the Holy Apostles which forbids joining in prayer with heretics.  This and other canons forbid clergy and laity to attend services conducted by clergy that have been condemned for teaching heresy, or who have departed into schism, or who have been deposed.  The canon does not imply that we should interview all who are present in the church regarding their dogmatic beliefs, but pertains rather to the clergy conducting the service and their standing within the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.
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« Reply #80 on: August 02, 2011, 01:00:50 PM »

What kind of a test would you give to everyone at a Church before you would pray in that Church? What if someone in the Church was pro-choice, would you then refuse to attend the Divine Liturgy, since you would be praying with a heretic?

How many, in your  opinion, there are Orthodox Churches that support abortion?

You show the great lack of understanding about the Orthodox Church, the very Protestant-like one.
There is no Orthodox Church that supports abortion. However, there are people in the Orthodox Church who are pro-choice, are there not? For example, there is a TV commentator who is a son of an Orthodox priest, yet he has expressed pro-choice views.  The question is whether or not you can pray with a heretic. It is asserted above: " MUST NOT PRAY WITH HERETICS!" I don't see how you would be able to follow this rule. For example, during the Communist era in Eastern Europe there were Communists who had their daughters married in the Orthodox Church. Now if you were going to impose the rule of  MUST NOT PRAY WITH HERETICS! then that would imply that you would not be able to attend Divine Liturgy when a member of the Communist Party was present. And you could not attend the DL if a pro-choice person were present, because you would be praying with a heretic, would you not?
No, the heretic would be praying with us. There's no canon against that.
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« Reply #81 on: August 03, 2011, 03:44:05 AM »

And you could not attend the DL if a pro-choice person were present, because you would be praying with a heretic, would you not?

No.

To become a heretic one should be declared a heretic by the Church. Our personal opinion does not matter.
So if an Orthodox Christian were to believe that abortion was OK under certain (weak)  conditions, say, and if he believed that it was OK to receive Holy Communion in an Anglican Church at a Mass said by a woman priest, and there was no declaration of the Church against him, then he would not be a heretic?
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« Reply #82 on: August 03, 2011, 03:48:55 AM »

If he believed and didn't do anything? Everybady has doubts sometimes.
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« Reply #83 on: August 03, 2011, 03:53:00 AM »

If he believed and didn't do anything? Everybady has doubts sometimes.
So he would not be a heretic if he persisted in the belief that abortion was OK and that women priests and women bishops are OK, and that it is OK to receive Holy Communion in an Anglican Church, as long as the Orthodox Church did not officially warn him?
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« Reply #84 on: August 03, 2011, 03:53:59 AM »

How would you know he is a heretic?
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« Reply #85 on: August 03, 2011, 10:58:18 AM »

No, the heretic would be praying with us. There's no canon against that.

That is helpful. Perhaps it's a matter of an idiom that doesn't carry over very well into English -- praying with a heretic vs. allowing a heretic to pray with you.
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« Reply #86 on: August 03, 2011, 11:29:40 AM »

even if a bishop would grant "economy," I don't believe he really has such authority.

*thumbs up*

Thumbs up for me too.
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« Reply #87 on: August 03, 2011, 12:04:10 PM »

How would you know he is a heretic?
I am not sure. Anyway, I saw a posted sign at an Orthodox Church indicating that they had adult catechism classes on Thursday nights at 7:30. I indicated to the Orthodox priest there that I was interested in attending and learning more about the Orthodox Church. He said that I was a heretic and that he did not allow heretics to attend his classes, but only those who had been baptised and chrismated in the Orthodox church. So I guess he had some criteria to determine who was and who was not a heretic.
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« Reply #88 on: August 03, 2011, 12:38:33 PM »

How would you know he is a heretic?
I am not sure. Anyway, I saw a posted sign at an Orthodox Church indicating that they had adult catechism classes on Thursday nights at 7:30. I indicated to the Orthodox priest there that I was interested in attending and learning more about the Orthodox Church. He said that I was a heretic and that he did not allow heretics to attend his classes, but only those who had been baptised and chrismated in the Orthodox church. So I guess he had some criteria to determine who was and who was not a heretic.

Wow...that souns a bit absurd...

Have you ever been to liturgy there before? He might've thought you were a Jesuit.  police
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« Reply #89 on: August 03, 2011, 01:53:15 PM »

How would you know he is a heretic?
I am not sure. Anyway, I saw a posted sign at an Orthodox Church indicating that they had adult catechism classes on Thursday nights at 7:30. I indicated to the Orthodox priest there that I was interested in attending and learning more about the Orthodox Church. He said that I was a heretic and that he did not allow heretics to attend his classes, but only those who had been baptised and chrismated in the Orthodox church. So I guess he had some criteria to determine who was and who was not a heretic.

 Angry

Please tell me that this priest was from a group that has a name like: True-Blue Super-Orthodox Dogmatically and Canonically Perfecto Supremo Uber-Right Believing Greek Hellenic Ancient Greek Orthodox Catholic Greek Orthopraxical Church...?
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« Reply #90 on: August 03, 2011, 02:28:14 PM »

How would you know he is a heretic?
I am not sure. Anyway, I saw a posted sign at an Orthodox Church indicating that they had adult catechism classes on Thursday nights at 7:30. I indicated to the Orthodox priest there that I was interested in attending and learning more about the Orthodox Church. He said that I was a heretic and that he did not allow heretics to attend his classes, but only those who had been baptised and chrismated in the Orthodox church. So I guess he had some criteria to determine who was and who was not a heretic.

Wow...that souns a bit absurd...
Yes, that does sound absurd. I think of a catechism class as something intended specifically for those who have NOT yet been baptized and chrismated.
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« Reply #91 on: August 03, 2011, 03:39:01 PM »

Can we please get back on topic?
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« Reply #92 on: August 03, 2011, 04:06:08 PM »

Can we please get back on topic?
How has this discussion veered off topic? The discussion of heresy and the heresies one sees in communions outside one's own is important to the topic of whether one would receive Communion from a priest outside one's own church.
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« Reply #93 on: August 03, 2011, 04:22:25 PM »

^Okay, good point, I guess you're right. When I said "get back on topic" I eant discussing whether you would commune in these other Churches if you were isolated from a parish of your own faith tradition.
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« Reply #94 on: August 03, 2011, 05:40:19 PM »

How would you know he is a heretic?
I am not sure. Anyway, I saw a posted sign at an Orthodox Church indicating that they had adult catechism classes on Thursday nights at 7:30. I indicated to the Orthodox priest there that I was interested in attending and learning more about the Orthodox Church. He said that I was a heretic and that he did not allow heretics to attend his classes, but only those who had been baptised and chrismated in the Orthodox church. So I guess he had some criteria to determine who was and who was not a heretic.

Wow...that souns a bit absurd...
Yes, that does sound absurd. I think of a catechism class as something intended specifically for those who have NOT yet been baptized and chrismated.

Exactly, I hope he misheard the priest...
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« Reply #95 on: August 03, 2011, 08:41:48 PM »

How would you know he is a heretic?
I am not sure. Anyway, I saw a posted sign at an Orthodox Church indicating that they had adult catechism classes on Thursday nights at 7:30. I indicated to the Orthodox priest there that I was interested in attending and learning more about the Orthodox Church. He said that I was a heretic and that he did not allow heretics to attend his classes, but only those who had been baptised and chrismated in the Orthodox church. So I guess he had some criteria to determine who was and who was not a heretic.

 Angry

Please tell me that this priest was from a group that has a name like: True-Blue Super-Orthodox Dogmatically and Canonically Perfecto Supremo Uber-Right Believing Greek Hellenic Ancient Greek Orthodox Catholic Greek Orthopraxical Church...?
Antioch Orthodox Church. BTW, the Orthodox priest was a convert from the Baptist group. He was not Orthodox from childhood, but Baptist.  When he saw me flinch at his comment, he tried to soften his statement by saying that even his father, who was a Baptist minister, was a heretic. Anyway, no, he would not allow me to attend his class. My guess is that he did not like Roman Catholics, or he did not like my discussion in which I was talking about Thomas Aquinas and St. Augustine. BTW, he said that St. Augustine was not a Saint, but was Blessed.   I was slightly acquainted  with a girl who was  a student at the local college, and she was an Anglican. In a casual conversation with her,  she told me that she was attending his evening class on thursdays. He did belong to a canonical Orthodox Church, the Antiochan Orthodox Church, which I believe had accepted a certain number of people from the Baptist group in the past. 
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« Reply #96 on: August 03, 2011, 08:44:10 PM »

Can we please get back on topic?
OK. I apologise, but the question came up as to who was and who was not a heretic.
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« Reply #97 on: August 03, 2011, 08:46:33 PM »

Can we please get back on topic?
OK. I apologise, but the question came up as to who was and who was not a heretic.
^No problem, nevermind.
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« Reply #98 on: August 03, 2011, 11:27:05 PM »

How would you know he is a heretic?
I am not sure. Anyway, I saw a posted sign at an Orthodox Church indicating that they had adult catechism classes on Thursday nights at 7:30. I indicated to the Orthodox priest there that I was interested in attending and learning more about the Orthodox Church. He said that I was a heretic and that he did not allow heretics to attend his classes, but only those who had been baptised and chrismated in the Orthodox church. So I guess he had some criteria to determine who was and who was not a heretic.

 Angry

Please tell me that this priest was from a group that has a name like: True-Blue Super-Orthodox Dogmatically and Canonically Perfecto Supremo Uber-Right Believing Greek Hellenic Ancient Greek Orthodox Catholic Greek Orthopraxical Church...?
Antioch Orthodox Church. BTW, the Orthodox priest was a convert from the Baptist group. He was not Orthodox from childhood, but Baptist.  When he saw me flinch at his comment, he tried to soften his statement by saying that even his father, who was a Baptist minister, was a heretic. Anyway, no, he would not allow me to attend his class. My guess is that he did not like Roman Catholics, or he did not like my discussion in which I was talking about Thomas Aquinas and St. Augustine. BTW, he said that St. Augustine was not a Saint, but was Blessed.   I was slightly acquainted  with a girl who was  a student at the local college, and she was an Anglican. In a casual conversation with her,  she told me that she was attending his evening class on thursdays. He did belong to a canonical Orthodox Church, the Antiochan Orthodox Church, which I believe had accepted a certain number of people from the Baptist group in the past. 
Shows you how much he knows if he says St. Augustine is not a saint. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #99 on: August 04, 2011, 01:35:35 AM »

St Augustine of Hippo is listed on every Orthodox calendar I have encountered (Greek, Russian, Serbian, and others). His feastday is June 15. Orthodox saints are not required to be infallible, only holy and God-pleasing.
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« Reply #100 on: August 04, 2011, 10:05:45 AM »

How would you know he is a heretic?
I am not sure. Anyway, I saw a posted sign at an Orthodox Church indicating that they had adult catechism classes on Thursday nights at 7:30. I indicated to the Orthodox priest there that I was interested in attending and learning more about the Orthodox Church. He said that I was a heretic and that he did not allow heretics to attend his classes, but only those who had been baptised and chrismated in the Orthodox church. So I guess he had some criteria to determine who was and who was not a heretic.

 Angry

Please tell me that this priest was from a group that has a name like: True-Blue Super-Orthodox Dogmatically and Canonically Perfecto Supremo Uber-Right Believing Greek Hellenic Ancient Greek Orthodox Catholic Greek Orthopraxical Church...?
Antioch Orthodox Church. BTW, the Orthodox priest was a convert from the Baptist group. He was not Orthodox from childhood, but Baptist.  When he saw me flinch at his comment, he tried to soften his statement by saying that even his father, who was a Baptist minister, was a heretic. Anyway, no, he would not allow me to attend his class. My guess is that he did not like Roman Catholics, or he did not like my discussion in which I was talking about Thomas Aquinas and St. Augustine. BTW, he said that St. Augustine was not a Saint, but was Blessed.   I was slightly acquainted  with a girl who was  a student at the local college, and she was an Anglican. In a casual conversation with her,  she told me that she was attending his evening class on thursdays. He did belong to a canonical Orthodox Church, the Antiochan Orthodox Church, which I believe had accepted a certain number of people from the Baptist group in the past. 
Shows you how much he knows if he says St. Augustine is not a saint. Roll Eyes

I've heard of that, Orthodox calling him "Blessed Augustine" but not "St. Augustine".
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« Reply #101 on: August 04, 2011, 12:58:43 PM »

I've heard of that, Orthodox calling him "Blessed Augustine" but not "St. Augustine".

"Blessed" is a type of "Saint" like "Martyr", "Confessor", "Apostle" etc.
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« Reply #102 on: August 04, 2011, 04:03:49 PM »

I've heard of that, Orthodox calling him "Blessed Augustine" but not "St. Augustine".

He is called Ό Αγίος Αυγουστίνος - "Saint Augustine"
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« Reply #103 on: August 04, 2011, 06:27:23 PM »

Okay, now that we've gone down this rat hole of whether St. Augustine is a saint or not, a subject we have discussed on other threads, could we get back on the topic of the OP?
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« Reply #104 on: August 17, 2011, 10:56:04 PM »

I would commune in an Oriental Church.
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« Reply #105 on: August 17, 2011, 10:58:27 PM »

I would commune in an Oriental Church.
But not in an RC parish, I assume?

As I have said, I wouldn't feel comfortable communing in any Church besides the EOC or the OOC.
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« Reply #106 on: August 17, 2011, 10:59:45 PM »

I would commune in an Oriental Church.
But not in an RC parish, I assume?

As I have said, I wouldn't feel comfortable communing in any Church besides the EOC or the OOC.
Not even in a Melchite Catholic Church in an emergency situation?
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« Reply #107 on: August 17, 2011, 11:08:00 PM »

Not even in a Melchite Catholic Church in an emergency situation?
Please define "emergency situation".
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« Reply #108 on: August 18, 2011, 12:04:51 AM »

Not even in a Melchite Catholic Church in an emergency situation?
Please define "emergency situation".
You are at the point of death. The doctor has given you one hour to live and there is no E. Orthodox priest or OO priest within one thousand miles. You are in a hospital bed and the Melchite Catholic priest is next door.
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« Reply #109 on: August 18, 2011, 12:09:48 AM »

Quote
You are at the point of death. The doctor has given you one hour to live and there is no E. Orthodox priest or OO priest within one thousand miles. You are in a hospital bed and the Melchite Catholic priest is next door.
I must say, that is an excellent question... Let me think about it/sleep on it and I'll tell you later.
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« Reply #110 on: August 18, 2011, 06:01:59 AM »

Not even in a Melchite Catholic Church in an emergency situation?
Please define "emergency situation".
You are at the point of death. The doctor has given you one hour to live and there is no E. Orthodox priest or OO priest within one thousand miles. You are in a hospital bed and the Melchite Catholic priest is next door.
I would say this, I would only commune from the Melkite Priest if my Orthodox Priest/Spiritual Father gave me permission to do so. In which case, if I have sinned against God by communing from the Melkite, the responsibility would be on my Priest's shoulders and not on mine. A part of me does want to say that the RC eucharist is 'valid', but I, as of yet, cannot say for sure if it is.

God bless.
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« Reply #111 on: August 18, 2011, 07:03:42 AM »

Not even in a Melchite Catholic Church in an emergency situation?
Please define "emergency situation".
You are at the point of death. The doctor has given you one hour to live and there is no E. Orthodox priest or OO priest within one thousand miles. You are in a hospital bed and the Melchite Catholic priest is next door.

I would die knowing I did the right thing.
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« Reply #112 on: August 18, 2011, 07:29:06 AM »

I would not commune at any rite in communion with the Vatican (no offense). Smiley
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« Reply #113 on: August 18, 2011, 01:30:52 PM »

Not even in a Melchite Catholic Church in an emergency situation?
Please define "emergency situation".
You are at the point of death. The doctor has given you one hour to live and there is no E. Orthodox priest or OO priest within one thousand miles. You are in a hospital bed and the Melchite Catholic priest is next door.
I would say this, I would only commune from the Melkite Priest if my Orthodox Priest/Spiritual Father gave me permission to do so. In which case, if I have sinned against God by communing from the Melkite, the responsibility would be on my Priest's shoulders and not on mine. A part of me does want to say that the RC eucharist is 'valid', but I, as of yet, cannot say for sure if it is.

God bless.
So, because you exercise your free will by doing something your priest has permitted--note that I don't say instructed--you to do, you are no longer responsible for your action? Unless he instructs you to do something, the decision to do something is still yours, and you would not be disobeying your priest to refuse. Therefore, the responsibility would still be on your shoulders, would it not?
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« Reply #114 on: August 18, 2011, 06:02:06 PM »

So, because you exercise your free will by doing something your priest has permitted--note that I don't say instructed--you to do, you are no longer responsible for your action? Unless he instructs you to do something, the decision to do something is still yours, and you would not be disobeying your priest to refuse. Therefore, the responsibility would still be on your shoulders, would it not?

AGREED!
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« Reply #115 on: August 18, 2011, 06:59:01 PM »

So, because you exercise your free will by doing something your priest has permitted--note that I don't say instructed--you to do, you are no longer responsible for your action? Unless he instructs you to do something, the decision to do something is still yours, and you would not be disobeying your priest to refuse. Therefore, the responsibility would still be on your shoulders, would it not?
I'm sorry let me clarify, if he insisted I would commune, in fact, that was the meaning I was trying to convey in my previous post.
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