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Author Topic: Pre-sanctified Liturgy outside of Great Lent?  (Read 1227 times) Average Rating: 0
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griego catolico
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« on: July 07, 2011, 06:20:00 PM »

Is it permissible for Eastern Orthodox parishes to celebrate the Pre-sanctified Liturgy outside of Great Lent?
A Russian Orthodox cathedral had Pre-sanctified liturgies during this past Nativity fast and a Greek Orthodox parish has a Pre-sanctified liturgy scheduled only two days before the feast of Theophany 2012.

I thought the Pre-sanctified liturgy was only celebrated during Great Lent.

Thank you for any information you may provide.
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« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2011, 06:36:40 PM »

Interesting. Can't wait for an answer.

In his Great Lent, Fr. Alexander Schmemann sees the Liturgy of the Pre-Sanctified Gifts as the Lenten service par excellence. Regarding when they are served, he bemoans they are practically lost in some areas of Orthodoxy and never mentions the celebration outside the Lenten cycle.

 
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« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2011, 09:03:20 PM »

Where did and will these liturgies take place? Can you provide a link that confirms this? I'm not trying to contradict you, but it does seem strange and somewhat out of place. Is there any possibility that these are not Lenten Pre-sanctified Liturgies but rather Typika with pre-sanctified gifts?
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« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2011, 09:14:57 PM »

Typika with pre-sanctified gifts?

Thank you. Just learned something new that given my circumstances probably would have never come up.
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griego catolico
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« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2011, 04:21:17 PM »

Where did and will these liturgies take place? Can you provide a link that confirms this? I'm not trying to contradict you, but it does seem strange and somewhat out of place. Is there any possibility that these are not Lenten Pre-sanctified Liturgies but rather Typika with pre-sanctified gifts?

I first saw it on the website of the ROCOR cathedral of San Francisco (www.sfsobor.com). It was listed on their calendar of services for December 2010 (the link is no longer available).

The other parish is Saint Anna Greek Orthodox shrine in Roseville, CA. Click onto their calendar link: http://saintanna.org/calendar/. Keep scrolling down until you are in January 2012. You will see that there is listed "Pre-sanctified Liturgy" on Wednesdays throughout the year.  It may very well be Typika with pre-sanctified gifts, but it is listed as "Pre-sanctified Liturgy". That's what has me confused.
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« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2011, 05:22:25 PM »

Where did and will these liturgies take place? Can you provide a link that confirms this? I'm not trying to contradict you, but it does seem strange and somewhat out of place. Is there any possibility that these are not Lenten Pre-sanctified Liturgies but rather Typika with pre-sanctified gifts?

I first saw it on the website of the ROCOR cathedral of San Francisco (www.sfsobor.com). It was listed on their calendar of services for December 2010 (the link is no longer available).

The other parish is Saint Anna Greek Orthodox shrine in Roseville, CA. Click onto their calendar link: http://saintanna.org/calendar/. Keep scrolling down until you are in January 2012. You will see that there is listed "Pre-sanctified Liturgy" on Wednesdays throughout the year.  It may very well be Typika with pre-sanctified gifts, but it is listed as "Pre-sanctified Liturgy". That's what has me confused.
I won't comment on the ROCOR calendar. The Saint Anna calendar does seem to be a bit confusing. What I noticed was that the "Pre-sanctified Liturgy" overlaps in time the Akathist Prayer which is consistent on Wednesdays. I wonder if it's just a glitch of some sort that hasn't been noticed yet by them. Have you tried emailing the church with your question?
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« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2011, 11:58:45 AM »

Outside of Great Lent and Holy Week, there is no need to do a the Presanctified Liturgy. It would be an extreme oddity, since the Trullo Council, to my knowledge, only requires the Presanctified Liturgy at those times. It is only because of that time of the year that we do it.
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« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2011, 05:39:30 PM »

The Canons of St. Nicephorus the Confessor of Constantinople state that the Liturgy of the Presanctified was to be celebrated on all Wednesdays and Fridays of the year unless a Great Feast fell on them, Wednesday and Friday of Cheesefare Week, Monday through Friday of the Great Fast, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, and Friday(!) of Holy Week, and the Feast of the Exaltation of the Holy Cross.  The Typicon of the Great Church and the Studite Monastery do not mention the Exaltation of the Cross, or Wed and Fri throughout the year but agree with the rest.   It was the Typicon of St Sabbas the restricted Presanctified to Wed and Fri only through the Great Fast.  The Monastery of the Caves in kIev followed the Studite usage until the 1920s.  (Uspensky, Evening Worship in the Orthodox Church, Pgs 186-190)
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« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2011, 05:42:19 PM »

Given the more ancient practice it would not seem unreasonable to celebrate the Presanctified on Wed and Fri during the minor Fasts.
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« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2011, 05:48:57 PM »

Given the more ancient practice it would not seem unreasonable to celebrate the Presanctified on Wed and Fri during the minor Fasts.

Except that the even more ancient practice is not to do presanctified liturgies at all.
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« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2011, 09:13:10 PM »

Given the more ancient practice it would not seem unreasonable to celebrate the Presanctified on Wed and Fri during the minor Fasts.

Except that the even more ancient practice is not to do presanctified liturgies at all.

And they didn't need to do them because the laity kept the Holy Gifts at home and communed themselves.
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« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2011, 09:25:54 PM »

Quote from: Deacon Lance
And they didn't need to do them because the laity kept the Holy Gifts at home and communed themselves.

Wow, did they? Hmm, I learned something.
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« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2011, 09:42:40 PM »

Quote from: Deacon Lance
And they didn't need to do them because the laity kept the Holy Gifts at home and communed themselves.

Wow, did they? Hmm, I learned something.

Letter of  St. Basil of Caesarea to the Patrician Cæsaria concerning Communion.

It is good and beneficial to communicate every day, and to partake of the holy body and blood of Christ. For He distinctly says, “He that eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life.” John 6:54 And who doubts that to share frequently in life, is the same thing as to have manifold life. I, indeed, communicate four times a week, on the Lord's day, on Wednesday, on Friday, and on the Sabbath, and on the other days if there is a commemoration of any Saint. It is needless to point out that for anyone in times of persecution to be compelled to take the communion in his own hand without the presence of a priest or minister is not a serious offense, as long custom sanctions this practice from the facts themselves. All the solitaries in the desert, where there is no priest, take the communion themselves, keeping communion at home. And at Alexandria and in Egypt, each one of the laity, for the most part, keeps the communion, at his own house, and participates in it when he likes. For when once the priest has completed the offering, and given it, the recipient, participating in it each time as entire, is bound to believe that he properly takes and receives it from the giver. And even in the church, when the priest gives the portion, the recipient takes it with complete power over it, and so lifts it to his lips with his own hand. It has the same validity whether one portion or several portions are received from the priest at the same time.
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« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2011, 09:46:15 PM »

Quote from: Deacon Lance
And they didn't need to do them because the laity kept the Holy Gifts at home and communed themselves.

Wow, did they? Hmm, I learned something.

Until the superstitious started using the Holy Gifts in amulets and other talismans to ward off evil. Reception in the hand was over then! It never returned to the Eastern tradition, and only recently became an option in the West.

Actually, in the West, it was common for the people to receive only the Body, on the tongue, and no wine. The wine was separate and used for the communion of the clergy.
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« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2011, 11:21:24 AM »

Quote from: Deacon Lance
And they didn't need to do them because the laity kept the Holy Gifts at home and communed themselves.

Wow, did they? Hmm, I learned something.

Until the superstitious started using the Holy Gifts in amulets and other talismans to ward off evil. Reception in the hand was over then! It never returned to the Eastern tradition, and only recently became an option in the West.

Actually, in the West, it was common for the people to receive only the Body, on the tongue, and no wine. The wine was separate and used for the communion of the clergy.

References? Particularly for the East?
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« Reply #15 on: July 12, 2011, 12:07:33 PM »

to griego catolico: have you had a response from Saint Anna parish? I'm interested in their answer.
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« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2011, 10:07:20 PM »

The Typica done by a deacon is a form of presanctified liturgy, but it is only done when no Priest is available. It is morre of an emergency service than anything else
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« Reply #17 on: July 31, 2011, 04:10:59 PM »

The Typica done by a deacon is a form of presanctified liturgy, but it is only done when no Priest is available. It is morre of an emergency service than anything else
A few weeks ago we had to have Typica done this way by our priest. He had just had eye surgery and had to avoid anything strenuous, including even the multiple bows required to serve the Liturgy. Also, he knew that there was the possibility of his having to announce at the very last minute on Sunday morning that he wouldn't be able to attend, so he wanted us chanters to be prepared to lead a Reader's Service, which we could easily do by simply dropping the priest/deacon parts from the Typika. Your point it quite right - it is there for emergencies.
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« Reply #18 on: August 01, 2011, 06:47:18 PM »

Yeah, I supposed it technically could be celebrated outside of Lent, but why would you?  The presanctified is not really a "liturgy," per se; it's a form of monastic vespers with communion tacked onto it.  It's there during Lent because we're not permitted to celebrate the Divine Liturgy on weekdays during Lent; we can celebrate the liturgy pretty much anytime outside of Lent/Holy Week. 
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« Reply #19 on: August 01, 2011, 07:48:52 PM »

There is a case made by the new book by Stefanos Alexopoulos "The Presanctified Liturgy in the Byzantine Rite" saying that the frequency of the PRES would be:

Wednesday & Friday of the Year
Wednesday & Friday of Cheesefare Week
First Week of Lent
Weekdays of Lent
Holy Friday
September 14
February 2
February 24
March 9
March 20
March 25

As well as at coronations, appointment of civil servants & even weddings.  (pgs 58-80)

Its involvement with the Typika is also an entire half-chapter.  (pgs 80-94)

I can give more precise answers from the book if interested. 
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