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Linus7
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« on: June 25, 2004, 07:25:04 AM »

I cannot in good conscience remain on and participate in a web site whose official policy is that Non-Chalcedonians - known until quite recently as Monophysites - are "Orthodox."

To do so would be to tacitly endorse this grievous error and to court the wrath of God.

I am not really concerned about what all of you may think of me.

Better to please God than to please men.

Goodbye!
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« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2004, 07:32:59 AM »

Dear Linus:

I wish you luck and am praying for you.

(I may also soon be following your example).

Joe Zollars
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« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2004, 07:53:45 AM »

I must admit to being somewhat puzzled by this, since the new policy itself states:  

"It is still the position of this forum that no one is required to accept our viewpoint that Eastern and Oriental Orthodox are both Orthodox, and debate about these issues is permissible as long as the quality of the discussions is academic."


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« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2004, 08:04:30 AM »

but they are reffered to officially in the forum name as being "Oriental Orthodox" thus leading many of us to wonder if a new change is again looming on the horizon and that line of the policy was just some bone being thrown to those of us who uphold the traditional view.  

Also the policy that we cannot refer to saints as saints is problematic.

I am not speaking for Linus here as I don't know his reasons, but these are my reasons for strongly considering terminating my membership here.

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« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2004, 08:53:04 AM »

but they are reffered to officially in the forum name as being "Oriental Orthodox" thus leading many of us to wonder if a new change is again looming on the horizon and that line of the policy was just some bone being thrown to those of us who uphold the traditional view.  

Before the name change to the Oriental Orthodox forum, it was called "Non-Chalcedonian Discussion", but if you read the fine print (which wasn't so fine), it said "Oriental Orthodox", and it was like that from the beginning.  It's always been out there, so I don't understand why it is causing a problem for people now.  

Quote
Also the policy that we cannot refer to saints as saints is problematic.

In academic discussions, Orthodox theologians often (in my reading) refer to Saint So and So simply as So and So.  I don't see why this poses a problem here.  After all, we didn't say you couldn't venerate them.  Venerate anyone you want.  But when you are engaging in the kind of academic discussion we wish to see, this is the only way to keep the peace, considering that in the past, referring to saints and heretics was used by people on both sides as a stick with which to beat down opponents.  I personally feel that is disrespectful to those saints.  The saints don't exist simply to prop up the arguments of "internet theologians".
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« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2004, 09:32:56 AM »

The Internet is not a place for academic discussions (isn't there a saying about arguing on the Internet?).  I do find it somewhat offensive that I'm not allowed to refer to Leo of Rome as St. Leo the Great.

I think I'll take my leave of here.

Jason
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« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2004, 09:47:29 AM »

I respectfully agree with the posters here.

The Internet is NOT academia.

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« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2004, 11:22:53 AM »

I cannot in good conscience remain on and participate in a web site whose official policy is that Non-Chalcedonians - known until quite recently as Monophysites - are "Orthodox."

... still, not known as "Monophysites" "until quite recently" in Ethiopia, Egypt, Keralia, etc ...  Cool

(maybe so-known in certain circles, but the world is a mighty big place...)

... so, how 'bout the point re-emphasized above, that the forum explicitly does not require / hold as "official policy" that "Non-Chalcedonians" are "Orthodox"?

... In any case, sorry to see you go, if so you must do...

Again, I quote Dostoyevsky,

"It's always nice to talk with an intelligent man". Wink

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« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2004, 11:30:12 AM »

About the only prob I can see with renaming the folder the 'Oriental Orthodox Forum' is it doesn't include the Assyrian Church, which (I once was told here!) isn't part of the OO communion, having broken from the mainstream church earlier than the OOs, after Ephesus. 'Non-Chalcedonian' seems an inoffensive and more comprehensive name.
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« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2004, 01:27:45 PM »

1) Linus: This forum has always had the opinion that Oriental Orthodox are Orthodox. Nothing has changed in that regard. But I wish you well.

2) Joe: Come on. You and I talk on AIM every other day.  The way you write, you are part of a growing contingent of people that are constantly guessing at the intentions of the moderators and administrators of this forum.  But since we are personal friends, you could always just ASK ME on AIM or by email what we are up to Smiley

3) Benedictus: I completely disagree. One can and should have the LEVEL of academic discourse on the internet.  The internet is often a trash heap, but we educated people should speak in an educated and academic manner. However, no one is saying that this means that the product of the debates will be academic material.

As for St. Leo, I am at a loss for why this offends you.  Our only point is to protect St. Leo from being called an archheretic by some, while protecting the Oriental Orthodox's right to not have their saints attacked as being called names.  As the fine print says, it is assumed that one considers St. Leo a saint if he is an Eastern Orthodox Christian.  This only applies to threads where there is debate about Chalcedon and related issues, certainly it does not apply to any other situation.  It's all about trying to faciliate discussion about facts without getting bogged down in name calling.  It certainly DOES NOT honor a saint to use their status as Saint to be rude and vicious to other people, which has happened here in the past.

4) Serge: While many Eastern Orthodox theologians see the Oriental Orthodox/Non Chalcedonians as Orthodox, I know of no Eastern Orthodox theologian from liberal to conservative who holds the same view about the Assyrians, who from their own theology as presented on their website www.cired.org , are clearly much farther away from Eastern Orthodoxy than Oriental Orthodox (I say this with a heavy heart as I really like the Assyrian Church).

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« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2004, 01:54:50 PM »

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4) Serge: While many Eastern Orthodox theologians see the Oriental Orthodox/Non Chalcedonians as Orthodox, I know of no Eastern Orthodox theologian from liberal to conservative who holds the same view about the Assyrians, who from their own theology as presented on their website www.cired.org , are clearly much farther away from Eastern Orthodoxy than Oriental Orthodox (I say this with a heavy heart as I really like the Assyrian Church).

So was the change from 'Non-Chalcedonian Discussion' to 'Oriental Orthodox Discussion' a deliberate narrowing of scope to exclude the Assyrians because of this difference?
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« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2004, 02:09:12 PM »

Serge,

Assyrians were never included in the Non-Chalcedonian folder per se because they were not Non-Chalcedonians (the Assyrians actually accepted Chalcedon but not Ephesus, as you probably know).  Sometimes people discussed Assyrians in that folder because they didn't really see a place to discuss them, but they nevertheless don't really fit there.

Our changing the name had nothing to do with a narrowing to exlude Assyrians, but was rather a recognition that the term "Non-Chalcedonian" was a bit ackward.  First of all, I didn't like the term because it suggested to me that one could pick or choose whether to believe in Chalcedon, which to me is wrong (I think the council has to be dealt with honestly for reunion).  Also, it is not the name of that communion.  We thought it also was identifying a group by what they reject instead of by what they accept.

That was really all that we were thinking when we changed the name.

If there were a sizable Assyrian population posting here we would open up an Orthodox-Assyrian dialogue folder, but there simply isn't the interest.  Topics dealing with Assyrians could either be placed in the Oriental Orthodox folder since there is not a better place for it, or "the Other folder."

Thank you for your input, and thank you to everyone else for expressing theirs, even those who don't agree with us.

Anastasios
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« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2004, 02:53:55 PM »

As others have pointed out, the new policy clearly states: "It is still the position of this forum that no one is required to accept our viewpoint that Eastern and Oriental Orthodox are both Orthodox, and debate about these issues is permissible as long as the quality of the discussions is academic."  Its like some people are on here demanding their right to be acerbic and crude and to call people names (monophysite, heretic, etc.).  

Rustaveli, thanks for pointing out that we were only know as "monophysites" in certain circles in certain quarters of the world.  The misnomer is far from universal.  That is like saying "Americans, known recently as the Great Satan...", yeah sure, in Iran!  To borrow a phrase from John Stossel or Nell Carter, give me a break!
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« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2004, 03:56:55 PM »

I am not asking for the right to call those who do not accept Chalcedon as either Miaphite or Monophysite or for that matter heretic (although this may or may not be my personal opinion).  I was quite happy using the term "Non-Chalcedonian" (although I would NEVER put the word Orthodox at the end of that expression).  However, I would point out that simply by coming here I see the words "Oriental Orthodox" more or less officially used as a descriptor.  Quite frankly I am personally offended by this use and like Benedictus I am also personally offended that I cannot refer to people such as Leo the Great as a saint.  I would also have the same reaction if I was forbidden to refer to Mark of Ephesus and Photius as saints in the Orthodox-Roman discussion thread.

I would also like to point out that there are a considerable number of people here who are not represented.  There is a forum for the Romans (and their Eastern stepchildren) and there is a forum for the anti-chalcedonians.  But there is no forum for the Old Calandrists who frequent this forum.  Do I detect a double standard? (yes indeed that was a rhetorical question)  

Now I have not yet decided to leave this forum permanently (I will most likely make this decision by Monday), but the above is how I personally feel about the issue.  In any matter, I agree and support both Linus and Benedictus and wish them well.  As they say in Eire, Go with God.

Joe Zollars
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« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2004, 04:30:05 PM »

Quote
I would also like to point out that there are a considerable number of people here who are not represented.  There is a forum for the Romans (and their Eastern stepchildren) and there is a forum for the anti-chalcedonians.  But there is no forum for the Old Calandrists who frequent this forum.  Do I detect a double standard? (yes indeed that was a rhetorical question)  

Joe, this sounds like a brief from the ACLU.  I'm quite surprised you'd say something like this.
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« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2004, 04:32:16 PM »

I thought the order of the first four councils was Nic+ªa, Constantinople, Ephesus and Chalcedon so I assumed the Assyrians rejected or at least didn't rule either way on anything that came after they left, at the time of Ephesus. Thanks for the info. If they're Chalcedonian after all then right, they don't belong in the same folder as the Oriental Orthodox, unless you name it 'Non-Byzantine Eastern Churches Discussion' or something like that.

Like them or not, I see the point of a folder for those who define themselves by the Julian calendar, as the forum is largely dedicated to Eastern Orthodoxy and such are a vocal part of the online Orthodox scene.
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« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2004, 05:12:46 PM »

Joe, this sounds like a brief from the ACLU.  I'm quite surprised you'd say something like this.  

Slander!!!!!!!!

I did not say there should be an Old Calander forum because I necessarily thought there should be one, but rather to illumine a very apparante bias here against those who wish to uphold the Orthodox Faith in its traditional form.  Next thing you know were gunna have to call all the people listed at www.vagantesRus.com as Orthodox.

Now the question I have to the admin is, as a Catechumen who is very traditional in his views and who is under a very traditional priest in an exclusivly Old Calander Jurisdiction, as one who firmly believes ecumenism to be an error, and the Calander issue to be a matter of life or death, am I welcome here?  my perception from recent events is no.

Joe Zollars
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« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2004, 05:25:44 PM »

I think the new policy regarding the OO forum is fair and balanced, it is the best that I think the Admins and Mods could do. I don't see why people are upset about it, I mean this is just a internet forum......... jeezzz it is just the internet.
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« Reply #18 on: June 25, 2004, 05:32:52 PM »

as explained elsewhere, we are upset at the cheapening of the word Orthodox.  I thought I was alone in this regard, but after discussions with friends, I know that I am not.  There are at least 3 people who have already publically spoken out about leaving either here or here.  

Now I have not left yet, but the case for staying become slimmer by the hour from my POV.

Joe Zollars
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« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2004, 05:42:17 PM »

I am not asking for the right to call those who do not accept Chalcedon as either Miaphite or Monophysite or for that matter heretic (although this may or may not be my personal opinion).  I was quite happy using the term "Non-Chalcedonian" (although I would NEVER put the word Orthodox at the end of that expression).  However, I would point out that simply by coming here I see the words "Oriental Orthodox" more or less officially used as a descriptor.  Quite frankly I am personally offended by this use and like Benedictus I am also personally offended that I cannot refer to people such as Leo the Great as a saint.  I would also have the same reaction if I was forbidden to refer to Mark of Ephesus and Photius as saints in the Orthodox-Roman discussion thread.

I would also like to point out that there are a considerable number of people here who are not represented.  There is a forum for the Romans (and their Eastern stepchildren) and there is a forum for the anti-chalcedonians.  But there is no forum for the Old Calandrists who frequent this forum.  Do I detect a double standard? (yes indeed that was a rhetorical question)  

Well, Joe a thought or two.  Is taking Personal Offense about things that others say/write going to be a controlling factor in your life? Is taking offense a good reason?  In "The Language Police" Diane Ravitch writes about people on both sides of the political spectum who hold that  ideas that they disapprove of cannot be allowed.  They would control others to their own likes/dislikes.  Is taking personal offense sometimes a sign of Pride? (Rhetorical question alert).

I've found occasionally things here that are offensive *to me*. But I'm not the Center of the Universe and I can't expect others to always do as I might wish.  I have to be adult and ignore it or deal with it in an appropriate way.

There's no forum here for the Anglicans... but though there are some of us participating, it would be out of line for us to demand one as that's not the point of the place.  

I'll be sorry if you and Linus go.  

Ebor
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« Reply #20 on: June 25, 2004, 05:48:35 PM »

I understand the objection to the term "Oriental Orthodox", but it has been made clear that you are in no way forced to accept that or that it is forbidden to ever say "Non-Chalcedonian".

Also, from day ONE, "Oriental Orthodox" has been used by many and as Mor stated it was clear in the not so fine print.

It is funny that ppl get upset when the forum is officialy renamed, but really Joe I didn't see you posting about leaving all the other times the NCs have been called "Oriental Orthodox" or when Anastasios and many others have made the case for the NCs being Orthodox in a breadth of posts.

It has always been the policy of oc.net that the NCs are truly Orthodox, if this isn't true, what in the heck is a NC forum doing on a Orthodox site, run by Eastern Orthodox Christians?!

Joe, why didn't you refuse to join when you saw that there was a NC foum on a website under the title of "Orthodoxy"? Or when you realized that "Oriental Orthodox" was being used to describe the NCs?
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« Reply #21 on: June 25, 2004, 07:05:47 PM »

I was quite happy using the term "Non-Chalcedonian" (although I would NEVER put the word Orthodox at the end of that expression).  However, I would point out that simply by coming here I see the words "Oriental Orthodox" more or less officially used as a descriptor.  Quite frankly I am personally offended by this use and...I am also personally offended that I cannot refer to people such as Leo the Great as a saint...

If you are quite happy using the term Non-Chalcedonian, then keep using it.  Who is stopping you?  But it is the opinion of the people who run this site that the Oriental Orthodox are Orthodox, and so they are entitled to use the labels which they see as appropriate on the forum they built and maintain.  Are you suggesting that they should change the way they run their forum just to suit your sensibilities?  As Mor Ephrem pointed out, the term "Oriental Orthodox" was always right there to be seen by all.  Now the print is just a little bigger.

I also would like to be able to refer to such great saints and pillars of faith as Dioscoros of Alexandria and Severus of Antioch by their proper titles as saints, but I am willing to compromise when speaking in a purely academic setting.  As Mor has said, no one is telling me that I cannot venerate them, or refer to them as saints in non-debate threads.  The thing is, people were using the sainthood of certain individuals on both sides as a club, calling their own guys "saint-so-and-so" and the other side's guy as "the-arch-heretic-so-and-so".  Some even went so far as to avoid calling contemporary patriarchs by their proper title, which was a very provocative move.

I agree with Ben.  The new policy is fair and balanced, and I look forward to discourse in the forum.  Bravo to the mods/admins.  Good show.
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« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2004, 07:10:38 PM »

Wow AN agree with me! Yay! lol Wink
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« Reply #23 on: June 25, 2004, 07:16:42 PM »

My concern is that this is yet another sign of a creeping heresy on this forum.  But more importantly that those of us who uphold the traditional view are forbidden.

Ben to answer your question, the particular subforum in question was not in existence when I first joined this forum.  Also Ben, the existence of such does not prove that there is an opinion that the anti-chalcedonians are Orthodox.  There is a Roman forum, yet none of the admins (to my knowledge) are of the opinion that Romans are Orthodox.

My main concern is that continuing to post here seems to be a participation in a heretical act.  I have asked advice on the subject but have yet to hear back.  As I stated earlier, I will be making a decision by Monday Morning, but as I said earlier as well, with each visit the case for staying becomes slimmer.  Particluarly when administrative silence appears to confirm the fears.

Joe Zollars
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« Reply #24 on: June 25, 2004, 07:22:02 PM »

Joe yes there is a Catholic forum, not "Roman" because it deals with both Eastern and Roman Catholics, however it is a disucssion forum between ORTHODOX Christians and Catholic Christians, the NC forum was never a "Orthodox - Non-Chalcedonian discussion forum". It was simply a NC forum for NC issues to be discussed, it was different from the "Roman" forum because it was not a discussion forum for Orthodox and NCs, it was specificaly for NCs to discuss regular issues about their Church, but sadly it turned into a battlefield.

There was never any indication that the NC forum was meant to be some type of discussion forum or debate forum between EOs and NCs, like the "Roman" folder is between EOs and Catholics.

So your comparison doesn't work.
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« Reply #25 on: June 25, 2004, 07:24:02 PM »

Wow AN agree with me! Yay! lol Wink

 Grin Glad we found some common ground!  The crazy thing is, I agree with your last post too.  Could this be the start of a new trend?  Shocked
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« Reply #26 on: June 25, 2004, 07:25:32 PM »

Grin Glad we found some common ground!  The crazy thing is, I agree with your last post too.  Could this be the start of a new trend?  Shocked

 Shocked Shivers run down my spine  Wink
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« Reply #27 on: June 25, 2004, 07:31:35 PM »

Hey, if H.H. Pope John Paul and H.H. Pope Shenouda can greet each in peace, why can't we, their children? Smiley
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« Reply #28 on: June 25, 2004, 07:34:53 PM »

lol good point, and with this trend of us agreeing, I think we are certainly able to do what our Fathers have done!
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« Reply #29 on: June 25, 2004, 07:39:44 PM »

Ben:

So says the individual who wasn't here at the time.

Oh and BTW, those in the Roman Church are not Catholic, because they are not Orthodox.  I won't argue such here as it is not the time or place, but such is my opinion.

Joe Zollars
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« Reply #30 on: June 25, 2004, 07:41:22 PM »

Yay the Romans and Non-chals here can embrace each other.  While those who are still within the traditional confines ofhte Orthodox faith are excluded.....

Joe Zollars
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« Reply #31 on: June 25, 2004, 07:46:40 PM »

Well Joe Catholics like to be called Catholics, and thats what normal people call them. Not because they necessarily believe them to be Catholics, but because that is the name of the Christian Church under the authority of Rome.

Anyway, the reason I brought it up is because you called the Catholic forum the "Roman" forum, which is inaccurate, because Eastern Catholic issues are discussed there, it is not just for Roman Catholics, as the title states its Catholic as in "under Rome", that just doesn't include the "Romans".

But I do wonder since you totally reject to Catholics being called Catholics, why don't you leave oc.net for that reason? I mean if I am not mistaken since day one it has been called the Orthodox-CATHOLIC discussion board. I wonder why you don't comment on that and post about leaving because it isn't properly named the "Roman" dicussion forum!

I am sure if you are considering leavin oc.net over the fact that OOs are called OOs, then you would certainly want to leave because Catholics are called Catholics, but oddly you haven't!
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« Reply #32 on: June 25, 2004, 07:48:38 PM »

Yay the Romans and Non-chals here can embrace each other.  While those who are still within the traditional confines ofhte Orthodox faith are excluded.....

Joe Zollars

Do you see this AN! Joe mocks our union! Certainly he will not be invited when we concelebrate!  Wink
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« Reply #33 on: June 25, 2004, 07:55:43 PM »

Geez, what does that say about you when seeing people reconcile and get along upsets you? Huh
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« Reply #34 on: June 25, 2004, 07:58:55 PM »

I hope that question was for Joe....lol
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« Reply #35 on: June 25, 2004, 08:03:19 PM »

It was rheotorical, but it certainly wasn't directed at you!  It was a commentary on his response to our being friendly for once.  Don't call the concelebration off yet! Wink
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« Reply #36 on: June 25, 2004, 08:06:15 PM »

Poor Joe, if only he would open up and be more friendly he could concelebrate with us! *sigh* Wink
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« Reply #37 on: June 25, 2004, 08:08:29 PM »

But of course if Joe did attend we'd make sure he would make the sign of the cross the right way, left to right. Wink
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« Reply #38 on: June 25, 2004, 09:46:48 PM »

Slander!!!!!!!!

I did not say there should be an Old Calander forum because I necessarily thought there should be one, but rather to illumine a very apparante bias here against those who wish to uphold the Orthodox Faith in its traditional form.  Next thing you know were gunna have to call all the people listed at www.vagantesRus.com as Orthodox.

Now the question I have to the admin is, as a Catechumen who is very traditional in his views and who is under a very traditional priest in an exclusivly Old Calander Jurisdiction, as one who firmly believes ecumenism to be an error, and the Calander issue to be a matter of life or death, am I welcome here?  my perception from recent events is no.

Joe Zollars

Then your perception must be wrong because Seraphim Reeves was always welcome to post here and he and I have even become friendly offline as of late.

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« Reply #39 on: June 25, 2004, 09:56:19 PM »

Let me make something clear. Some of you are misrepresenting our point of view.  And remember, bearing false witness is a sin.

NO ONE SAID YOU COULD NOT CALL ST LEO A SAINT. IT SAYS THAT INSTEAD WE SHOULD REFER TO THE FIGURES IN A HISTORICAL SENSE SO AS TO NOT ABUSE their memory, okay?  And not let OTHERS call our fathers heretics. This works both ways--it's called being fair.

It also says that if you are Eastern Orthodox that you are presumed to accept Chalcedon and St. Leo the Great.  THE POINT WAS NOT TO SAY YOU COULD NOT CALL HIM A SAINT BUT NOT TO ***USE*** HIS MEMORY AS A BATTLESTICK TO POUNCE ON OTHERS, just like Eastern Orthodox would not like Oriental Orthodox to use St Dioscorus, et al, to do the same to St Leo!

Furthermore, NO POLICY HAS CHANGED.  If you read the archives, we suggested the "academic discourse" approach MONTHS ago.

The following is directed solely at Joe: Please stop being melodramatic. If you quit the site, then quit. If you stay, then stay. But don't make your deliberations public, because no one else does that. We are supposed to be friends, so if you value our friendship (remember, I stood by you when you were in ROAC), then contact me personally and we will discuss your issues with our "new" policy.

Thank you everyone for your continued input. I am a bit agitated, not at any person in particular, but just at the fact that our points were taken out of context and used in a way we did not intend.

St. Leo pray for us!

Anastasios
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« Reply #40 on: June 25, 2004, 09:58:05 PM »

Well put Anasatasios! I would also like to think we are all friends.
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« Reply #41 on: June 25, 2004, 10:36:24 PM »

I really don't see where a change in the policy of the board has occurred.

If you do not believe that the NC are Orthodox -- then fine. Continue to blieve that . I don't see where the mods are asking you to proclaim otherwise.

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« Reply #42 on: June 25, 2004, 10:44:45 PM »

Anastasios:

I did not ask for clarifications to be melodramatic, but simply to clarify what I did not understand.  Others who shall remain nameless have changed and twisted my honest questions and requests for clarification into melodramatics.  

As for contacting you personally, since we don't really discuss all that often on AIM or otherwise.  Also on another forum I was told one thing which wasn't true just to appease me.  While I do not expect this thing from you or others on this forum, one or two of whom I consider friends, but I am just overly cautios in these matters.  Also there were a couple of individuals who wanted me to ask publically so they could see the answer but didn't have the courage to ask for themselves.

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« Reply #43 on: June 25, 2004, 10:46:02 PM »

I really don't see where a change in the policy of the board has occurred.

If you do not believe that the NC are Orthodox -- then fine. Continue to blieve that . I don't see where the mods are asking you to proclaim otherwise.



It can be logically infereed from their new policy.  Thus my request for clarification. doh.

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« Reply #44 on: June 26, 2004, 12:50:39 AM »

We merely reiterated the same policy. Nothing is new here.
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« Reply #45 on: June 26, 2004, 12:55:31 AM »

Let me point out one more thing: Nektarios was chosen as a moderator on this forum even though he does not believe the same things that the administrators do about the Oriental Orthodox/Non-Chalcedonians.

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« Reply #46 on: June 26, 2004, 03:20:13 PM »

Ratzinger was also chosen as a Cardinal by the NO Romans.  Hmm.

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« Reply #47 on: June 26, 2004, 07:19:48 PM »

Here we go again.  Joe's running running off in a huff because OC.net is too 'heretical' for him.  

What did Yogi Bera say....it's deja vu all over again?  

Joe I'll give you a piece of (unwanted) advice, don't do this again.  There is absolutely nothing more ridiculous than people storming off a website 'stamping their feet' and 'shaking the dust from their sandals.'  Especially if they've already done it three or four times already.
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« Reply #48 on: June 26, 2004, 07:46:34 PM »

umm I've done it exactly once before--not three or four times.  Perhaps before passing judgement you should go back and read my posts.  Oh and I have not left yet, just trying, and failing as no-one seems willing to give straight answers, to determine if it is necessary to leave.

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« Reply #49 on: June 26, 2004, 10:31:08 PM »

Ratzinger was also chosen as a Cardinal by the NO Romans.  Hmm.

Joe Zollars

Didn't the Pope choose him to be a Cardinal  Huh I wasn't aware us "Romans" are allowed to elect our own Cardinals!
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« Reply #50 on: June 26, 2004, 10:33:48 PM »


Joe I'll give you a piece of (unwanted) advice, don't do this again.  There is absolutely nothing more ridiculous than people storming off a website 'stamping their feet' and 'shaking the dust from their sandals.'  Especially if they've already done it three or four times already.  

Wonderful advice Jennifer! I can't believe I agree with you!  Tongue
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« Reply #51 on: June 26, 2004, 10:38:34 PM »

umm I've done it exactly once before--not three or four times.  Perhaps before passing judgement you should go back and read my posts.  Oh and I have not left yet, just trying, and failing as no-one seems willing to give straight answers, to determine if it is necessary to leave.

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Oh my gosh! Joe, what questions have you asked in this thread that remain unasnwered? Leave, if ya wanna leave, stop talking about it, and just do it. I am sorry, I don't mean to be rude, but I have gone through this thread and I can't seem to find these unasnwered questions, that you speak of!
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« Reply #52 on: June 26, 2004, 11:41:52 PM »

because they were not asked in this thread.

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« Reply #53 on: June 26, 2004, 11:46:46 PM »

Then why bring them up in this thread? Why post at all on this topic? Why don't you speak with Anastasios privately?
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« Reply #54 on: June 27, 2004, 12:09:57 AM »

I explained that earlier.  And all I originally did was wish my good friend Linus well.  Others brought up the issue based upon what I said.

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« Reply #55 on: June 27, 2004, 12:18:54 AM »

Joe, don't you think it's possible that you could falling into your old routine?
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« Reply #56 on: June 27, 2004, 12:22:52 AM »

I'm not falling into any routine.   I am simply asking for soem clarifications, and then you all are only concerned with attacking me for daring to ask a question.  What was that line again  "Ye shall know a tree by its fruit."

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« Reply #57 on: June 27, 2004, 01:17:05 AM »

Joe:

For the benefit of those of us who didn't read the other threads: what questions have gone unanswered?
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« Reply #58 on: June 27, 2004, 01:18:09 AM »

This is so utterly silly.  I am closing this thread.
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